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"title": "The Couple Who Helped Overturn California's Same-Sex Marriage Ban",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sandy Stier and Kris Perry were plaintiffs in a landmark case challenging California’s Prop 8, which banned gay marriage in 2008. Their trial went all the way to the Supreme Court, and would eventually restore marriage equality to California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This year, KQED invited Stier and Perry to watch unsealed tapes from the trial of their younger selves taking the stand for marriage equality, and to reflect on what it meant to be part of that fight all these years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Links:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966077/inside-the-trial-that-overturned-californias-same-sex-marriage-ban-proposition-8-mike-johnson-lgbtq-rights\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Inside the Trial That Overturned California’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7526943476\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to the Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. In 2009. Sandy Stier and Kris Perry applied for a marriage license. The two had been living together with their children in Alameda County for years. Their license, however, was denied. That’s because just a year prior, California voters passed prop eight, banning gay marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Stier and Perry, a lesbian couple, would later become plaintiffs in a case that would go all the way up to the Supreme Court and restore marriage equality in California. It’s been ten years since then, and last month, KQED Scott Shafer and Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí invited Stier and Perry to KQED to watch their younger selves go on stand. To defend their right to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Policies that institutionalize unfairness. The group that’s unequal believes that they’re not equal. It’s powerful. Policy is powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, you’re going to hear from Stier and Perry in their own words, as they reflect back on their long battle for marriage equality and what it’s meant to them to be part of this monumental case all these years later. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I am Kris Perry. I’m a plaintiff in the case that challenged proposition eight and was ruled on by the United States Supreme Court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>My name was Sandy Stier, and I was a plaintiff in Perry versus Schwarzenegger, which ended up being called Hollingsworth versus Perry in the United State Supreme Court. And that is the case that restored marriage equality to California. You know, before we went to the trial, we we were certainly both very anxious about it, but also, you know, kind of saying it’s going to be fine, you’re going to do great, you’re going to be good. And so we just tried to kind of hold each other up and and give each other a lot of support. And we were clenching hands before we went up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why are you a plaintiff in this case?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m a plaintiff, as in this case, because I would like to get married, and I would like to marry the person that I choose, and that is Kris Perry. So I did not come out until much later in life. So when I was right out of college mirrors or receiver, I would move to California, got married to a man, got two kids and knew that something wasn’t working for me. I couldn’t fully understand that for quite some time. And I fell in love with Kris. That’s when I understood, first of all, the concept of falling in love, which until then, I don’t think I can wrap my head around until I actually experienced it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In general terms, how did that relationship grow and what did what did it grow into?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Well, I remember the first time I met Sandy thinking she was maybe the sparkliest person I’d ever met. And, um, and I wanted to be her friend. And we were friends for a few years, and and our friendship became more and more, um, it became deeper and deeper over time and, and and then after a few years, I began to feel that I might be falling in love with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>I really felt like the thunderbolt of a change for me. I was so struck by my feelings and the intensity of them. I felt like it just sort of took over my life. I felt like I just grabbed something and held on and did not let go of no matter what.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>So we were pretty clear early on that we wanted it to be long term, and that we had to take the steps to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>And so I just felt like no matter what, I’m going to hold on to this because this person that I love, I’m crazy about, I will not let go of, I will not. No matter what.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You learn in some way that the mayor of the City of San Francisco had authorized the issuance of marriage licenses and the performance of marriage in San Francisco. Am I stating that correctly? Yes. Was that that was in the early part of 2004?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Yes. For us, it was February of 2004.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what did you did you act on that information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I did, I, um, I, Sandy and I both were. We’re reading about it in the newspaper, and we talked about whether or not we would want to. I would go to San Francisco to have this, the marriage and then continue with our other plans. And that’s what we decided we want to do. So we made an appointment and we went to City Hall and we brought, um, all of the boys and my mom and we were married in City Hall. A few weeks after our August ceremony, the state Supreme Court ruled that the San Francisco weddings were invalid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Policy is powerful, and I you internalize that state. You internalize those policies and beliefs into your own psyche. And for me, I really believed I wasn’t as good as heterosexual married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It’s amazing. She’s a really strong person. Professionally, personally and just every way. But to see what that had done to her. To see what living with discrimination had done to her. The painful to know that about. To have to bear witness to that suffering. I had never felt like I wouldn’t have access to marriage. I always thought I would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>And then when I didn’t have access to marry the person I fell in love with, I was just outraged. I didn’t feel like there was something wrong with me. I thought there was something wrong with the society, with the world, with the process. I thought, this is weird. It’s an absurd thing to to be voted on. And I couldn’t believe, quite frankly, that the majority of my fellow Californians chose to discriminate against me and every other couple or person like me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>The fact that proposition eight had gone to the voters of California seemed so wrong that people in the in the state could vote on our what we consider to be a fundamental right. Felt like the wrong way to use a political process. And so we felt like maybe it belongs in the judiciary, because do you can you have the majority of the people decide on your rights? That’s not fair. It’s just fundamentally not fair. And as a protected class, we need to have protection. And so with that, like the judicial, you know, the judicial process is where you find protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you feel that voters were being warned that they needed to protect their children from you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Yes, I did, and I felt like. I was being used. That my the fact that I, you know, I am the way I am and I can’t change the way I am, was being mocked and made fun of and disparaged in a way that I like that really didn’t have any way to respond to it. I just had to know that people felt that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>We didn’t make the decision to be plaintiffs without first checking in with the kids, and they each, in their own way, said, this is important. And of course, you should do it if we want you to succeed. And then finally, that we were in a position to do it. We were in a privileged position. We had a secure life, we had good jobs. We had children who were healthy. We had support of the family and friends. And it was we lived in a supportive community. It was it. We should do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What is your relationship with plaintiff Sandra Stier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Um, well, Sandy is the woman I love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>What happens is you take care of other people’s homophobia. Like, I don’t want to make you feel homophobic, so I’ll be less gay around you. There’s this weird, unspoken dynamic, like you kind of closet yourself. Anyway, so this we we get we gave all that up by being plaintiffs. So we were so obviously out and we cared so much that we weren’t able to play that role anymore. We were just going to be us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I remember feeling very anxious and, um, scared, honestly not knowing how any of it would turn out, what the questions might be from the other side, how I would hold up if I would get emotional and break down a little bit, and how would I cope with that in the moment? So I was really projecting out about that, not doing a good job and and wanting to be strong. People were really the counting on us to deliver and there was a lot of pressure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>We did a lot of our trial preparation together in the same room, and that process was grueling. And also, I felt like I learned yet more about Kris and our experiences, and because we had a lot of the preparation together. I think we felt great empathy for each other, you know, for what we’ve gone through. That’s the same as what we’ve gone through. That’s quite different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>We spent quite a bit of time with the lawyers practicing the answers, but more importantly, thinking deeply about our experience as a couple that had been discriminated against. And what did it really mean, and how did it really impact us and our children? So it wasn’t so much the answers as just understanding ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Being a plaintiff in a case, trying to change the Constitution, is it a burden or is it something that, um, that’s easy for you, um, because of what it means? Tell us about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It doesn’t feel like a burden. It just I feel like a little tiny person in this, this huge country that just. I just want my my rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Part of this case was also intended to change public opinion. And that includes our families who live in conservative parts of the state or the country. And one thing we knew, no matter what the outcome of the trial was, was that the public was moving in our direction, that the polling was changing very rapidly, and that included our families. And in the short amount of time we could see them make the shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tell us what it means to you as a plaintiff in this case if you were to be successful. How would change your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Well, I think it would change my life dramatically. Um, the first time somebody said to me, are you married? And I said, yes, I would think, oh, what? That feels good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Today is a great day for American children and families. Sandy. And I want to say how happy we are not only to be able to return to California and finally get married, but to be able to say to the children in California, no matter where you live, no matter who you your parents are, no matter what family you’re in. You are equal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It felt. I don’t want to say that, great cause that’s an understatement. Yep. It really did change our lives. I more that I think I thought it would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>And the depth of trust and the faith that you’re able to have because you’re not preoccupied with losing it, that you get to actually invest in it. The actual marriage, not in getting married, but being married. Wow. That’s just so different. And that that and I’m still feel grateful for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Words mean something. And I think that was part of the what we learned at trial. Words mean something. They have power. The word marriage means something. And if it didn’t mean something, we wouldn’t want it. And if it didn’t mean something, other people wouldn’t fight to try to keep us from having it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Kris Perry and Sandy Stier, two plaintiffs in the landmark lawsuit that overturned prop eight. In conversation with KQED, Scott Shafer and Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí This conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was produced and scored by Adhiti Bandlamudi, who also added all the tape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The rest of our podcast team here at KQED includes Jen Chien, our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, our podcast engagement intern, and Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra from me and the entire Bay team. Happy holidays y’all. Take care.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sandy Stier and Kris Perry were plaintiffs in a landmark case challenging California’s Prop 8, which banned gay marriage in 2008. Their trial went all the way to the Supreme Court, and would eventually restore marriage equality to California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This year, KQED invited Stier and Perry to watch unsealed tapes from the trial of their younger selves taking the stand for marriage equality, and to reflect on what it meant to be part of that fight all these years later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Links:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966077/inside-the-trial-that-overturned-californias-same-sex-marriage-ban-proposition-8-mike-johnson-lgbtq-rights\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Inside the Trial That Overturned California’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7526943476\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to the Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. In 2009. Sandy Stier and Kris Perry applied for a marriage license. The two had been living together with their children in Alameda County for years. Their license, however, was denied. That’s because just a year prior, California voters passed prop eight, banning gay marriage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Stier and Perry, a lesbian couple, would later become plaintiffs in a case that would go all the way up to the Supreme Court and restore marriage equality in California. It’s been ten years since then, and last month, KQED Scott Shafer and Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí invited Stier and Perry to KQED to watch their younger selves go on stand. To defend their right to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Policies that institutionalize unfairness. The group that’s unequal believes that they’re not equal. It’s powerful. Policy is powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, you’re going to hear from Stier and Perry in their own words, as they reflect back on their long battle for marriage equality and what it’s meant to them to be part of this monumental case all these years later. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I am Kris Perry. I’m a plaintiff in the case that challenged proposition eight and was ruled on by the United States Supreme Court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>My name was Sandy Stier, and I was a plaintiff in Perry versus Schwarzenegger, which ended up being called Hollingsworth versus Perry in the United State Supreme Court. And that is the case that restored marriage equality to California. You know, before we went to the trial, we we were certainly both very anxious about it, but also, you know, kind of saying it’s going to be fine, you’re going to do great, you’re going to be good. And so we just tried to kind of hold each other up and and give each other a lot of support. And we were clenching hands before we went up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why are you a plaintiff in this case?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m a plaintiff, as in this case, because I would like to get married, and I would like to marry the person that I choose, and that is Kris Perry. So I did not come out until much later in life. So when I was right out of college mirrors or receiver, I would move to California, got married to a man, got two kids and knew that something wasn’t working for me. I couldn’t fully understand that for quite some time. And I fell in love with Kris. That’s when I understood, first of all, the concept of falling in love, which until then, I don’t think I can wrap my head around until I actually experienced it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In general terms, how did that relationship grow and what did what did it grow into?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Well, I remember the first time I met Sandy thinking she was maybe the sparkliest person I’d ever met. And, um, and I wanted to be her friend. And we were friends for a few years, and and our friendship became more and more, um, it became deeper and deeper over time and, and and then after a few years, I began to feel that I might be falling in love with her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>I really felt like the thunderbolt of a change for me. I was so struck by my feelings and the intensity of them. I felt like it just sort of took over my life. I felt like I just grabbed something and held on and did not let go of no matter what.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>So we were pretty clear early on that we wanted it to be long term, and that we had to take the steps to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>And so I just felt like no matter what, I’m going to hold on to this because this person that I love, I’m crazy about, I will not let go of, I will not. No matter what.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You learn in some way that the mayor of the City of San Francisco had authorized the issuance of marriage licenses and the performance of marriage in San Francisco. Am I stating that correctly? Yes. Was that that was in the early part of 2004?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Yes. For us, it was February of 2004.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And what did you did you act on that information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I did, I, um, I, Sandy and I both were. We’re reading about it in the newspaper, and we talked about whether or not we would want to. I would go to San Francisco to have this, the marriage and then continue with our other plans. And that’s what we decided we want to do. So we made an appointment and we went to City Hall and we brought, um, all of the boys and my mom and we were married in City Hall. A few weeks after our August ceremony, the state Supreme Court ruled that the San Francisco weddings were invalid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Policy is powerful, and I you internalize that state. You internalize those policies and beliefs into your own psyche. And for me, I really believed I wasn’t as good as heterosexual married people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It’s amazing. She’s a really strong person. Professionally, personally and just every way. But to see what that had done to her. To see what living with discrimination had done to her. The painful to know that about. To have to bear witness to that suffering. I had never felt like I wouldn’t have access to marriage. I always thought I would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>And then when I didn’t have access to marry the person I fell in love with, I was just outraged. I didn’t feel like there was something wrong with me. I thought there was something wrong with the society, with the world, with the process. I thought, this is weird. It’s an absurd thing to to be voted on. And I couldn’t believe, quite frankly, that the majority of my fellow Californians chose to discriminate against me and every other couple or person like me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>The fact that proposition eight had gone to the voters of California seemed so wrong that people in the in the state could vote on our what we consider to be a fundamental right. Felt like the wrong way to use a political process. And so we felt like maybe it belongs in the judiciary, because do you can you have the majority of the people decide on your rights? That’s not fair. It’s just fundamentally not fair. And as a protected class, we need to have protection. And so with that, like the judicial, you know, the judicial process is where you find protection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Did you feel that voters were being warned that they needed to protect their children from you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Yes, I did, and I felt like. I was being used. That my the fact that I, you know, I am the way I am and I can’t change the way I am, was being mocked and made fun of and disparaged in a way that I like that really didn’t have any way to respond to it. I just had to know that people felt that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>We didn’t make the decision to be plaintiffs without first checking in with the kids, and they each, in their own way, said, this is important. And of course, you should do it if we want you to succeed. And then finally, that we were in a position to do it. We were in a privileged position. We had a secure life, we had good jobs. We had children who were healthy. We had support of the family and friends. And it was we lived in a supportive community. It was it. We should do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What is your relationship with plaintiff Sandra Stier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Um, well, Sandy is the woman I love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>What happens is you take care of other people’s homophobia. Like, I don’t want to make you feel homophobic, so I’ll be less gay around you. There’s this weird, unspoken dynamic, like you kind of closet yourself. Anyway, so this we we get we gave all that up by being plaintiffs. So we were so obviously out and we cared so much that we weren’t able to play that role anymore. We were just going to be us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>I remember feeling very anxious and, um, scared, honestly not knowing how any of it would turn out, what the questions might be from the other side, how I would hold up if I would get emotional and break down a little bit, and how would I cope with that in the moment? So I was really projecting out about that, not doing a good job and and wanting to be strong. People were really the counting on us to deliver and there was a lot of pressure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>We did a lot of our trial preparation together in the same room, and that process was grueling. And also, I felt like I learned yet more about Kris and our experiences, and because we had a lot of the preparation together. I think we felt great empathy for each other, you know, for what we’ve gone through. That’s the same as what we’ve gone through. That’s quite different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>We spent quite a bit of time with the lawyers practicing the answers, but more importantly, thinking deeply about our experience as a couple that had been discriminated against. And what did it really mean, and how did it really impact us and our children? So it wasn’t so much the answers as just understanding ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Being a plaintiff in a case, trying to change the Constitution, is it a burden or is it something that, um, that’s easy for you, um, because of what it means? Tell us about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It doesn’t feel like a burden. It just I feel like a little tiny person in this, this huge country that just. I just want my my rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Part of this case was also intended to change public opinion. And that includes our families who live in conservative parts of the state or the country. And one thing we knew, no matter what the outcome of the trial was, was that the public was moving in our direction, that the polling was changing very rapidly, and that included our families. And in the short amount of time we could see them make the shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tell us what it means to you as a plaintiff in this case if you were to be successful. How would change your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Well, I think it would change my life dramatically. Um, the first time somebody said to me, are you married? And I said, yes, I would think, oh, what? That feels good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>Today is a great day for American children and families. Sandy. And I want to say how happy we are not only to be able to return to California and finally get married, but to be able to say to the children in California, no matter where you live, no matter who you your parents are, no matter what family you’re in. You are equal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>It felt. I don’t want to say that, great cause that’s an understatement. Yep. It really did change our lives. I more that I think I thought it would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kris Perry: \u003c/strong>And the depth of trust and the faith that you’re able to have because you’re not preoccupied with losing it, that you get to actually invest in it. The actual marriage, not in getting married, but being married. Wow. That’s just so different. And that that and I’m still feel grateful for it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sandy Stier: \u003c/strong>Words mean something. And I think that was part of the what we learned at trial. Words mean something. They have power. The word marriage means something. And if it didn’t mean something, we wouldn’t want it. And if it didn’t mean something, other people wouldn’t fight to try to keep us from having it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Kris Perry and Sandy Stier, two plaintiffs in the landmark lawsuit that overturned prop eight. In conversation with KQED, Scott Shafer and Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí This conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was produced and scored by Adhiti Bandlamudi, who also added all the tape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The rest of our podcast team here at KQED includes Jen Chien, our director of podcasts, Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, our podcast engagement intern, and Holly Kernan, our chief content officer. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra from me and the entire Bay team. Happy holidays y’all. Take care.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7526943476\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are some of the ideas promoted by Louisiana Rep. Mike Johnson, the man \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/house-speaker-republicans-emmer-mccarthy-54352a64be041cd445bda8df28b24f03\">Republicans unanimously elected speaker of the House of Representatives on Oct. 25\u003c/a>, a position second-in-line for the presidency after the vice president:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>Marriage between two men or two women \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134019997/\">is not what God intended, and only traditional heterosexual marriage can lead to real happiness\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Homosexuality \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-mike-johnson-2005/134051395/\">is a lifestyle choice, not an immutable characteristic\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children are harmed \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134019997/\">by not having one mother and one father\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>States \u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/adf_-amicusbrief_lawrence_v_texas.pdf\">should be allowed to criminalize consensual sex between two men\u003c/a> as a way to slow the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>“Experts project that homosexual marriage is the dark harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy,” Johnson \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134020593/\">wrote in 2004 in an opinion article\u003c/a> in The Times of Shreveport, Louisiana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asked recently by Fox News for his views on homosexuality, Johnson said simply, “Go pick up a Bible. That’s what I believe and so I make no apologies for it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s why we call him MAGA Mike,” said openly gay Congressman Robert Garcia (D-Long Beach). “He is literally one of the most extreme voices in his party as it relates to LGBTQ rights. And so his record is really troubling.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the ideas espoused by Johnson also served as the ideological basis of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/proposition-8\">Proposition 8\u003c/a>, the 2008 ballot measure that banned same-sex marriage in California until it was struck down in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Such constitutional amendments, Johnson said, “are the people’s only way to prevent same-sex marriage as demanded by activist courts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rise of Johnson to the speakership coincides with renewed ultraconservative activism under the guise of keeping public policy from getting in between parents and their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At school board meetings, city councils and state legislatures around the country — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11965684/amidst-backlash-conservative-groups-target-south-bay-school-board-seats\">including in the Bay Area\u003c/a> — conservative activists led by organizations such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.momsforliberty.org/\">Moms for Liberty\u003c/a> are using “parental rights” as a cry to stir up anger against policies supporting transgender youth and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The notion that children need protection from predatory queer people or their allies is nothing new. In the 1970s, former beauty pageant winner \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1970s-christian-crusader-anita-bryant-helped-spawn-floridas-lgbtq-cult-rcna24215\">Anita Bryant used it to roll back gay rights ordinances in Florida\u003c/a>. Here in California in 1978, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-04/gearhart-briggs-initiative-ban-gay-teachers-proposition-6\">it was the misguided rationale behind the so-called Briggs Initiative\u003c/a>, which sought to prevent openly gay and lesbian people from teaching in K-12 schools. Voters soundly defeated it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that was not the case 15 years ago, on Nov. 4, 2008 — when Proposition 8 passed. It was a night when Californians overwhelmingly voted to elect Barack Obama president while simultaneously taking away the right of same-sex couples to marry. For LGBTQ+ voters, it was political whiplash — euphoria and despair in one night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 8 passed with 52% of the vote, eliminating a right that had been granted to gay and lesbian couples by the California Supreme Court less than six months earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Anti-gay tropes on trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As it happens, the ideas embraced by Speaker Johnson and supporters of Proposition 8 were all put on trial in 2010 after two same-sex couples sued in federal court to overturn the measure when they were denied marriage licenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That Proposition 8 trial — which included expert witnesses testifying under oath about anti-gay tropes, theories and political arguments — resulted in Proposition 8 being struck down in 2010 when the federal trial judge deemed the evidence against same-sex marriage to be uncompelling and ruled that the law violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the ruling, and the legal battle ended when the U.S. Supreme Court declined to take up a final appeal in 2013.[aside postID=\"news_11911275\" hero=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/04/RS5337_KQEDprop8castro_01.jpg\"]For more than a decade after it ended, videotapes of the trial were under seal until KQED fought a long legal battle to make them available to the public. The U.S. Supreme Court \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11911275/supreme-court-ruling-clears-way-for-release-of-footage-from-landmark-trial-that-legalized-same-sex-marriage-in-california\">allowed them to be unsealed in October 2022\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the videotapes were released, KQED invited the four Proposition 8 plaintiffs — Kris Perry and Sandy Stier along with Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo — to view them for the first time and talk about the trial, its aftermath and its significance today.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘The lie won people over, and the lie was based on fear’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One thing that stood out is that the ‘Yes on 8’ messages still echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leaders in the Catholic and Mormon Churches promoted the campaign to ban same-sex marriages in California. Among the ‘Yes on 8’ slogans: “Protect the Children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The sad part of it is, that campaign worked because the convenience of the lie won people over, and the lie was based on fear,” recalls Paul Katami. “And that fear included children. So I would never say it was a brilliant tactic, but it was an evil tactic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Watch a video featuring Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo reflecting on their experiences, produced by KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/ccabreralomeli\">Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGFgrXJx950\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorney Thomas R. Burke led KQED’s successful legal battle to unseal the tapes. He said the trial tested the homophobic, hateful arguments promoted by Proposition 8 supporters. The witnesses, the withering cross-examinations and the poignant testimony are all caught on \u003ca href=\"https://cand.uscourts.gov/notices/video-recordings-of-perry-v-schwarzenegger-now-available/\">video that is now available to anyone who wants to watch\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The evidence didn’t support you,” Burke said, referring to ‘Yes on 8’ defenders. “You had great lawyers arguing your cause, and you didn’t win. And if people thought you should have won, they can see and judge for themselves. If you didn’t have that recorded, that couldn’t happen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The historic trial resulted in a landmark decision when Judge Vaughn Walker struck down the ballot measure, ruling it violated the U.S. Constitution — but it was hardly a foregone conclusion at the start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Jeffrey Zarrillo, Proposition 8 plaintiff\"]‘I said to Paul at one point, ‘Even if we lose, we can go to our graves knowing that we didn’t stand for being treated as second-class citizens. We tried to do something about it.”[/pullquote]“I remember feeling very anxious and scared, honestly, not knowing how any of it would turn out,” lead plaintiff Kris Perry said after viewing trial clips at KQED. “People were really, you know, counting on us to deliver. And there was a lot of pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perry’s wife, Sandy Stier, recalls what seemed like days and days of preparation before going on the stand. She remembers worrying about how the trial might affect their lives, “not only for me, what it might be like for my kids, for my parents, my siblings and my community. And so it was very, very anxious going into court that day, not knowing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zarrillo and Katami were the first witnesses called to testify.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had so many fears going into the trial,” Katami said. “I was not confident because this was uncharted territory for both of us as human beings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I said to Paul at one point, ‘Even if we lose, we can go to our graves knowing that we didn’t stand for being treated as second-class citizens,’” Zarrillo said. “We tried to do something about it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial was originally going to be televised on closed circuit TV via YouTube until Proposition 8 attorneys objected, and the U.S. Supreme Court intervened to prevent it. But Judge Walker recorded the trial anyway, he said, for his personal use in writing the decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Katami was asked by one of their attorneys, David Boies, what the big deal was about not being able to marry when they had the option of a domestic partnership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The big deal is it’s creating a separate category for us. And that’s a major deal because it makes you into a second-, third- … and fourth-class citizen,” Katami said that day in January 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11966192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11966192\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people sit next to each other in chairs in front of a white backdrop.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jeffrey Zarrillo, left, and Paul Katami, plaintiffs in the landmark lawsuit that overturned California’s ban on same-sex marriage, sit during an interview at the KQED offices in San Francisco on March 3, 2023. Katami and Zarrillo had come to the studio to watch clips of their testimony in federal court, which KQED had fought to get unsealed. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Concerns over renewed efforts to make LGBTQ+ people second-class citizens were shared by none other than U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor this summer, following the high court’s ruling siding with a Christian graphic artist who refused to work with same-sex couples. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11955680/explaining-303-creative-decision\">Sotomayor wrote in her dissent that the decision’s effect was to “mark gays and lesbians for second-class status”\u003c/a> and that the ruling opened the door to further discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reflecting on his testimony, Katami said until the Proposition 8 trial, many heterosexuals didn’t know the hundreds of rights automatically afforded straight couples — but denied to LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you don’t have that protection because marriage allows that protection, there’s a bright spotlight that shines down on those rights when you don’t have them,” Katami says.[aside postID=\"news_11955680\" hero=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-180517172-1020x680.jpg\"]Viewing the trial tapes, Zarrillo noted that “when you’re on the stand like that, you have to really figure out, how do I answer this question [in a way] that is not going to hurt our cause?” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Perry was asked in court to describe her relationship with Stier, whom she met while both were students at UC Santa Cruz, Perry testified, “I met Sandy thinking she was maybe the sparkliest person I ever met. And I wanted to be her friend.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Stier testified that after meeting Perry, she “ really felt like the thunderbolt of change for me.” Unlike Perry, Stier wasn’t an out lesbian at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had moved to California, got married to a man, had two kids, and knew that something wasn’t working for me,” Stier told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Watch a video featuring Kris Perry and Sandy Stier reflecting on their experiences, produced by KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/ccabreralomeli\">Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMlRY1EIifk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial tapes reveal the humanity of the issue, ably presented by the four plaintiffs, Judge Walker said recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Both of the couples were very able witnesses — very attractive witnesses… So, we’re talking about matters that are intensely personal and important to them. That’s pretty compelling testimony under any circumstances,” Walker told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the audible and visible emotion of their testimony was out of view until the trial tapes were unsealed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, unlike TV shows, where every courtroom scene is riveting and entertaining, real-life trials are mostly “hours and hours of tedium broken episodically by sometimes emotions (or) events of great interest. But they are few and far between,” Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the retired judge said the tapes will be helpful in law schools to show students how courts deal with “a social issue or a constitutional issue of widespread importance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Honey Mahogany, transgender rights activist and chair of the San Francisco Democratic Central Committee \"]‘Seeing what happened during the trial behind the scenes is really important because it helps expose the truth. It helps expose the fact that this is just about two people loving each other.’[/pullquote]After Proposition 8 was struck down, both couples soon married and remain so today. But LGBTQ people are still under attack by people hoping to use them as political fodder on behalf of conservative causes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think that is incredibly dangerous,” transgender rights activist Honey Mahogany said. “These are tropes that have always been a part of emotionally manipulating people to advantage a certain political group or cause, right? They’re not based in fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahogany, who also chairs the San Francisco Democratic Central Committee, said the release of the trial tapes helps to humanize issues and the plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seeing what happened during the trial behind the scenes is really important because it helps expose the truth,” Mahogany said. “It helps expose the fact that this is just about two people loving each other, wanting to cement their relationship, wanting to protect each other … and their children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahogany said that given the risks of failure, what the Proposition 8 plaintiffs did was “incredibly important and brave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She hopes their example will encourage others to come forward today to humanize LGBTQ issues. “We can learn from history. We can, you know, find our champions and also our storytellers to help us tell our stories,” Mahogany said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the videotapes now accessible online, their stories told under oath can be seen by anyone who wishes to watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They fought for a decade that this would not be seen,” Burke said. “And I think there’s a reason for that,” Burke said, implying their arguments simply didn’t hold up under legal scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Walker’s ruling striking down Proposition 8 was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, the measure’s wording remains in the California Constitution. But voters will have the chance to change that next November. The State Legislature\u003ca href=\"https://ballotpedia.org/California_Right_to_Marry_and_Repeal_Proposition_8_Amendment_(2024)\"> placed a measure on the fall 2024 ballot that removes that invalidated language\u003c/a> and replaces it with an affirmation of the right of all couples to marry in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A version of this story was originally published on Nov. 2.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7526943476\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are some of the ideas promoted by Louisiana Rep. Mike Johnson, the man \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/house-speaker-republicans-emmer-mccarthy-54352a64be041cd445bda8df28b24f03\">Republicans unanimously elected speaker of the House of Representatives on Oct. 25\u003c/a>, a position second-in-line for the presidency after the vice president:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>Marriage between two men or two women \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134019997/\">is not what God intended, and only traditional heterosexual marriage can lead to real happiness\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Homosexuality \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-mike-johnson-2005/134051395/\">is a lifestyle choice, not an immutable characteristic\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Children are harmed \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134019997/\">by not having one mother and one father\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>States \u003ca href=\"https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/adf_-amicusbrief_lawrence_v_texas.pdf\">should be allowed to criminalize consensual sex between two men\u003c/a> as a way to slow the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>“Experts project that homosexual marriage is the dark harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy,” Johnson \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-times-kfile/134020593/\">wrote in 2004 in an opinion article\u003c/a> in The Times of Shreveport, Louisiana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asked recently by Fox News for his views on homosexuality, Johnson said simply, “Go pick up a Bible. That’s what I believe and so I make no apologies for it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s why we call him MAGA Mike,” said openly gay Congressman Robert Garcia (D-Long Beach). “He is literally one of the most extreme voices in his party as it relates to LGBTQ rights. And so his record is really troubling.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the ideas espoused by Johnson also served as the ideological basis of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/proposition-8\">Proposition 8\u003c/a>, the 2008 ballot measure that banned same-sex marriage in California until it was struck down in 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Such constitutional amendments, Johnson said, “are the people’s only way to prevent same-sex marriage as demanded by activist courts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rise of Johnson to the speakership coincides with renewed ultraconservative activism under the guise of keeping public policy from getting in between parents and their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At school board meetings, city councils and state legislatures around the country — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11965684/amidst-backlash-conservative-groups-target-south-bay-school-board-seats\">including in the Bay Area\u003c/a> — conservative activists led by organizations such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.momsforliberty.org/\">Moms for Liberty\u003c/a> are using “parental rights” as a cry to stir up anger against policies supporting transgender youth and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The notion that children need protection from predatory queer people or their allies is nothing new. In the 1970s, former beauty pageant winner \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/1970s-christian-crusader-anita-bryant-helped-spawn-floridas-lgbtq-cult-rcna24215\">Anita Bryant used it to roll back gay rights ordinances in Florida\u003c/a>. Here in California in 1978, \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-08-04/gearhart-briggs-initiative-ban-gay-teachers-proposition-6\">it was the misguided rationale behind the so-called Briggs Initiative\u003c/a>, which sought to prevent openly gay and lesbian people from teaching in K-12 schools. Voters soundly defeated it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that was not the case 15 years ago, on Nov. 4, 2008 — when Proposition 8 passed. It was a night when Californians overwhelmingly voted to elect Barack Obama president while simultaneously taking away the right of same-sex couples to marry. For LGBTQ+ voters, it was political whiplash — euphoria and despair in one night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 8 passed with 52% of the vote, eliminating a right that had been granted to gay and lesbian couples by the California Supreme Court less than six months earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Anti-gay tropes on trial\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As it happens, the ideas embraced by Speaker Johnson and supporters of Proposition 8 were all put on trial in 2010 after two same-sex couples sued in federal court to overturn the measure when they were denied marriage licenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That Proposition 8 trial — which included expert witnesses testifying under oath about anti-gay tropes, theories and political arguments — resulted in Proposition 8 being struck down in 2010 when the federal trial judge deemed the evidence against same-sex marriage to be uncompelling and ruled that the law violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the ruling, and the legal battle ended when the U.S. Supreme Court declined to take up a final appeal in 2013.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>For more than a decade after it ended, videotapes of the trial were under seal until KQED fought a long legal battle to make them available to the public. The U.S. Supreme Court \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11911275/supreme-court-ruling-clears-way-for-release-of-footage-from-landmark-trial-that-legalized-same-sex-marriage-in-california\">allowed them to be unsealed in October 2022\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the videotapes were released, KQED invited the four Proposition 8 plaintiffs — Kris Perry and Sandy Stier along with Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo — to view them for the first time and talk about the trial, its aftermath and its significance today.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘The lie won people over, and the lie was based on fear’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One thing that stood out is that the ‘Yes on 8’ messages still echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leaders in the Catholic and Mormon Churches promoted the campaign to ban same-sex marriages in California. Among the ‘Yes on 8’ slogans: “Protect the Children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The sad part of it is, that campaign worked because the convenience of the lie won people over, and the lie was based on fear,” recalls Paul Katami. “And that fear included children. So I would never say it was a brilliant tactic, but it was an evil tactic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Watch a video featuring Paul Katami and Jeffrey Zarrillo reflecting on their experiences, produced by KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/ccabreralomeli\">Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/CGFgrXJx950'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/CGFgrXJx950'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Attorney Thomas R. Burke led KQED’s successful legal battle to unseal the tapes. He said the trial tested the homophobic, hateful arguments promoted by Proposition 8 supporters. The witnesses, the withering cross-examinations and the poignant testimony are all caught on \u003ca href=\"https://cand.uscourts.gov/notices/video-recordings-of-perry-v-schwarzenegger-now-available/\">video that is now available to anyone who wants to watch\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The evidence didn’t support you,” Burke said, referring to ‘Yes on 8’ defenders. “You had great lawyers arguing your cause, and you didn’t win. And if people thought you should have won, they can see and judge for themselves. If you didn’t have that recorded, that couldn’t happen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The historic trial resulted in a landmark decision when Judge Vaughn Walker struck down the ballot measure, ruling it violated the U.S. Constitution — but it was hardly a foregone conclusion at the start.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I remember feeling very anxious and scared, honestly, not knowing how any of it would turn out,” lead plaintiff Kris Perry said after viewing trial clips at KQED. “People were really, you know, counting on us to deliver. And there was a lot of pressure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perry’s wife, Sandy Stier, recalls what seemed like days and days of preparation before going on the stand. She remembers worrying about how the trial might affect their lives, “not only for me, what it might be like for my kids, for my parents, my siblings and my community. And so it was very, very anxious going into court that day, not knowing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zarrillo and Katami were the first witnesses called to testify.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had so many fears going into the trial,” Katami said. “I was not confident because this was uncharted territory for both of us as human beings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I said to Paul at one point, ‘Even if we lose, we can go to our graves knowing that we didn’t stand for being treated as second-class citizens,’” Zarrillo said. “We tried to do something about it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial was originally going to be televised on closed circuit TV via YouTube until Proposition 8 attorneys objected, and the U.S. Supreme Court intervened to prevent it. But Judge Walker recorded the trial anyway, he said, for his personal use in writing the decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Katami was asked by one of their attorneys, David Boies, what the big deal was about not being able to marry when they had the option of a domestic partnership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The big deal is it’s creating a separate category for us. And that’s a major deal because it makes you into a second-, third- … and fourth-class citizen,” Katami said that day in January 2010.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11966192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11966192\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people sit next to each other in chairs in front of a white backdrop.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/03032023_prop9lawsuit-469-KQED-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jeffrey Zarrillo, left, and Paul Katami, plaintiffs in the landmark lawsuit that overturned California’s ban on same-sex marriage, sit during an interview at the KQED offices in San Francisco on March 3, 2023. Katami and Zarrillo had come to the studio to watch clips of their testimony in federal court, which KQED had fought to get unsealed. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Concerns over renewed efforts to make LGBTQ+ people second-class citizens were shared by none other than U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor this summer, following the high court’s ruling siding with a Christian graphic artist who refused to work with same-sex couples. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11955680/explaining-303-creative-decision\">Sotomayor wrote in her dissent that the decision’s effect was to “mark gays and lesbians for second-class status”\u003c/a> and that the ruling opened the door to further discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reflecting on his testimony, Katami said until the Proposition 8 trial, many heterosexuals didn’t know the hundreds of rights automatically afforded straight couples — but denied to LGBTQ people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you don’t have that protection because marriage allows that protection, there’s a bright spotlight that shines down on those rights when you don’t have them,” Katami says.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Viewing the trial tapes, Zarrillo noted that “when you’re on the stand like that, you have to really figure out, how do I answer this question [in a way] that is not going to hurt our cause?” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Perry was asked in court to describe her relationship with Stier, whom she met while both were students at UC Santa Cruz, Perry testified, “I met Sandy thinking she was maybe the sparkliest person I ever met. And I wanted to be her friend.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Stier testified that after meeting Perry, she “ really felt like the thunderbolt of change for me.” Unlike Perry, Stier wasn’t an out lesbian at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had moved to California, got married to a man, had two kids, and knew that something wasn’t working for me,” Stier told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Watch a video featuring Kris Perry and Sandy Stier reflecting on their experiences, produced by KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/ccabreralomeli\">Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/gMlRY1EIifk'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/gMlRY1EIifk'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>The trial tapes reveal the humanity of the issue, ably presented by the four plaintiffs, Judge Walker said recently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Both of the couples were very able witnesses — very attractive witnesses… So, we’re talking about matters that are intensely personal and important to them. That’s pretty compelling testimony under any circumstances,” Walker told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the audible and visible emotion of their testimony was out of view until the trial tapes were unsealed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, unlike TV shows, where every courtroom scene is riveting and entertaining, real-life trials are mostly “hours and hours of tedium broken episodically by sometimes emotions (or) events of great interest. But they are few and far between,” Walker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, the retired judge said the tapes will be helpful in law schools to show students how courts deal with “a social issue or a constitutional issue of widespread importance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "‘Seeing what happened during the trial behind the scenes is really important because it helps expose the truth. It helps expose the fact that this is just about two people loving each other.’",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>After Proposition 8 was struck down, both couples soon married and remain so today. But LGBTQ people are still under attack by people hoping to use them as political fodder on behalf of conservative causes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think that is incredibly dangerous,” transgender rights activist Honey Mahogany said. “These are tropes that have always been a part of emotionally manipulating people to advantage a certain political group or cause, right? They’re not based in fact.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahogany, who also chairs the San Francisco Democratic Central Committee, said the release of the trial tapes helps to humanize issues and the plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seeing what happened during the trial behind the scenes is really important because it helps expose the truth,” Mahogany said. “It helps expose the fact that this is just about two people loving each other, wanting to cement their relationship, wanting to protect each other … and their children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mahogany said that given the risks of failure, what the Proposition 8 plaintiffs did was “incredibly important and brave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She hopes their example will encourage others to come forward today to humanize LGBTQ issues. “We can learn from history. We can, you know, find our champions and also our storytellers to help us tell our stories,” Mahogany said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With the videotapes now accessible online, their stories told under oath can be seen by anyone who wishes to watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They fought for a decade that this would not be seen,” Burke said. “And I think there’s a reason for that,” Burke said, implying their arguments simply didn’t hold up under legal scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Walker’s ruling striking down Proposition 8 was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court, the measure’s wording remains in the California Constitution. But voters will have the chance to change that next November. The State Legislature\u003ca href=\"https://ballotpedia.org/California_Right_to_Marry_and_Repeal_Proposition_8_Amendment_(2024)\"> placed a measure on the fall 2024 ballot that removes that invalidated language\u003c/a> and replaces it with an affirmation of the right of all couples to marry in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A version of this story was originally published on Nov. 2.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Supreme Court Clears Way for Release of Footage From Landmark Trial That Legalized Same-Sex Marriage in California",
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"content": "\u003cp>KQED scored a historic legal victory Tuesday when the U.S. Supreme Court declined to consider an effort to block the release of videotapes from the 2010 federal trial in San Francisco that ultimately led to the legalization of same-sex marriage in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tuesday's decision is the culmination of a 12-year legal effort that began in 2009 when a media coalition led by KQED sought to have the trial broadcast. In 2017 KQED asked the Northern District of California to unseal the trial tapes, arguing that the recordings were a vital part of the public record in a historic legal case. While the court did not agree to immediately release the tapes, it ordered them to be unsealed on Aug. 12, 2020 — 10 years after the case closed. In declining to hear an appeal of lower court rulings, the Supreme Court effectively cleared the way for the tapes to be released.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After today’s ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, the public will finally be able to watch the testimony that Judge Vaughn Walker considered in deciding that same-sex couples have the right to marry,\" said Thomas R. Burke, KQED's attorney. \"There’s no doubt that the video will become a valuable instrument to educate the public about this historic moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"Great news! Love wins again and now, so does transparency,\" said Jeff Zarillo, one of the original plaintiffs in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Holly Kernan, KQED's chief content officer, agreed. \"If our systems work behind closed doors, with no press or public access, we have no idea how decisions are made, nor what arguments are leading to these decisions,\" she said. \"KQED wants more sunlight on our legal system and we will fight on behalf of the public to get that access.\" \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=\"news_11919970,news_11922040\" label=\"Related Posts\"]Supporters of Proposition 8 – a California ballot proposition passed by voters in 2008 that would have banned same-sex marriage in the state – previously appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, seeking to have the tapes sealed permanently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That court dismissed that request, saying the petitioners lacked legal standing for their appeal. The court also batted away the contention that unsealing the tapes would lead to harm or harassment of anyone directly involved in the trial and confirmed the lower court’s decision to unseal the tapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a last-ditch effort to keep the tapes sealed, Proposition 8 proponents asked the Supreme Court to take up the case. In their \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1304/219553/20220328101818830_Hollingsworth%20v.%20Perry%20Petition.pdf\">March 28, 2022 petition\u003c/a>, attorneys for Proposition 8 said the court's intervention was needed to \"prevent a grievous injury\" to the ballot measure's backers and to \"the integrity of the federal judiciary.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This entire issue began over 12 years ago, when Judge Vaughn R. Walker, the federal court judge who presided over the 2010 Perry v. Schwarzenegger trial, announced that he wanted the entire proceeding to be broadcast live via closed-circuit television with viewing in federal courthouses in San Francisco, Pasadena, Seattle and Portland, Oregon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That would have made Perry v. Schwarzenegger the first federal trial to be broadcast and recorded, with videotapes to be made available for later viewing on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Proposition 8 defense team objected as the bench trial was starting and the Supreme Court intervened, stopping the live broadcast before it began. The court said Walker failed to go through the appropriate process for getting approval for such a broadcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over objections from Proposition 8 attorneys, Walker said he would videotape the trial anyway for personal use in his chambers to help him write the decision, which ultimately struck down Proposition 8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Responding to the Supreme Court's refusal to take up the case and allow the lower court rulings to stand, Walker, who is now retired from the bench, said the justices did the right thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"With everything else going on in the world, not weighing in on this issue was an easy decision,\" said Walker. He added that the format of the Prop. 8 trial, with its expert witnesses providing testimony about the history, economics, sociology and psychology of gender roles and same-sex marriage could be a blueprint for judges in other controversial issues, including abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It was testimony by people who understood the whole panoply which gender plays in our society and in personal relationships,\" Walker said. \"Trials reveal things that simply cannot come out when you're scratching through old dusty books and records of the long past. And I think there are going to be many enactments affecting the abortion rights in the various states in the wake of the Dobbs decision.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In seeking to block release of the videotapes, attorneys for the ballot measure's proponents argued to the Supreme Court that Walker \"solemnly promised\" in court that the tapes would not be made public, and that doing so now would undermine public faith in the courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1304/226576/20220531111532780_Hollingsworth%20v.%20Perry%20--%20Brief%20in%20Opp.pdf\">response brief (PDF)\u003c/a>, attorneys for KQED argued that there was never a promise to keep the trial tapes sealed beyond 10 years and that Proposition 8 supporters failed to demonstrate any concrete injury that would come from releasing them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kris Perry, one of the original plaintiffs along with her partner Sandy Stier, said release of the tapes was long overdue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"Since the 2010 ruling striking down Proposition 8, we have fought to have the video record of our historic trial shared with the public,\" Perry said. \"There is no more important time to expose the discriminatory rhetoric of proponents and the courage of the experts, attorneys and plaintiffs in standing up against hate. Even though it's been 12 years since our ruling, we know the fight for marriage equality and many other basic civil rights is still essential and this video shows the evidence for why.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 2009 lawsuit filed by supporters of same-sex marriage against Proposition 8 was considered risky by some progressive legal groups, which worried that a setback in federal court could take decades to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial gained national attention, in part because the legal team seeking to have Proposition 8 struck down was led by conservative Theodore Olson and liberal David Boies, who were on \u003cem>opposite\u003c/em> sides of the infamous Bush v. Gore case following the disputed 2000 presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three-week trial in 2010 considered a wide range of issues, including the history of marriage, the political power of the LGBTQ+ community, the social and psychological harm of so-called \"conversion therapy\" and how the plaintiffs and their children were personally affected by being denied the right to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1984506746130471324&q=Perry+vs.+Schwarzenegger&hl=en&as_sdt=2006\">Judge Walker's decision in August 2010\u003c/a> struck down \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition\u003c/span> 8 on the basis that it violated the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th Amendment, saying California had no rational interest in denying marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples. The decision was later upheld in a 2-1 decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. In 2013, the Supreme Court declined to take up the case, ruling narrowly that \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition \u003c/span>8 supporters lacked legal standing to appeal the lower court decisions, which opened the way for same-sex marriages to resume in California after a five-year hiatus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hollingsworth v. Perry et al was one of dozens of cases \"denied certiorari\" or denied review by the court today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked before Tuesday's decision when the trial tapes would be made available, a spokesperson for the courts said \"we will work with the judge in the underlying case to make them available promptly. They'll be posted on a publicly available site.\" No additional details were given.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>KQED scored a historic legal victory Tuesday when the U.S. Supreme Court declined to consider an effort to block the release of videotapes from the 2010 federal trial in San Francisco that ultimately led to the legalization of same-sex marriage in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tuesday's decision is the culmination of a 12-year legal effort that began in 2009 when a media coalition led by KQED sought to have the trial broadcast. In 2017 KQED asked the Northern District of California to unseal the trial tapes, arguing that the recordings were a vital part of the public record in a historic legal case. While the court did not agree to immediately release the tapes, it ordered them to be unsealed on Aug. 12, 2020 — 10 years after the case closed. In declining to hear an appeal of lower court rulings, the Supreme Court effectively cleared the way for the tapes to be released.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“After today’s ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, the public will finally be able to watch the testimony that Judge Vaughn Walker considered in deciding that same-sex couples have the right to marry,\" said Thomas R. Burke, KQED's attorney. \"There’s no doubt that the video will become a valuable instrument to educate the public about this historic moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"Great news! Love wins again and now, so does transparency,\" said Jeff Zarillo, one of the original plaintiffs in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Holly Kernan, KQED's chief content officer, agreed. \"If our systems work behind closed doors, with no press or public access, we have no idea how decisions are made, nor what arguments are leading to these decisions,\" she said. \"KQED wants more sunlight on our legal system and we will fight on behalf of the public to get that access.\" \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Supporters of Proposition 8 – a California ballot proposition passed by voters in 2008 that would have banned same-sex marriage in the state – previously appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, seeking to have the tapes sealed permanently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That court dismissed that request, saying the petitioners lacked legal standing for their appeal. The court also batted away the contention that unsealing the tapes would lead to harm or harassment of anyone directly involved in the trial and confirmed the lower court’s decision to unseal the tapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a last-ditch effort to keep the tapes sealed, Proposition 8 proponents asked the Supreme Court to take up the case. In their \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1304/219553/20220328101818830_Hollingsworth%20v.%20Perry%20Petition.pdf\">March 28, 2022 petition\u003c/a>, attorneys for Proposition 8 said the court's intervention was needed to \"prevent a grievous injury\" to the ballot measure's backers and to \"the integrity of the federal judiciary.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This entire issue began over 12 years ago, when Judge Vaughn R. Walker, the federal court judge who presided over the 2010 Perry v. Schwarzenegger trial, announced that he wanted the entire proceeding to be broadcast live via closed-circuit television with viewing in federal courthouses in San Francisco, Pasadena, Seattle and Portland, Oregon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That would have made Perry v. Schwarzenegger the first federal trial to be broadcast and recorded, with videotapes to be made available for later viewing on YouTube.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the Proposition 8 defense team objected as the bench trial was starting and the Supreme Court intervened, stopping the live broadcast before it began. The court said Walker failed to go through the appropriate process for getting approval for such a broadcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over objections from Proposition 8 attorneys, Walker said he would videotape the trial anyway for personal use in his chambers to help him write the decision, which ultimately struck down Proposition 8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Responding to the Supreme Court's refusal to take up the case and allow the lower court rulings to stand, Walker, who is now retired from the bench, said the justices did the right thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"With everything else going on in the world, not weighing in on this issue was an easy decision,\" said Walker. He added that the format of the Prop. 8 trial, with its expert witnesses providing testimony about the history, economics, sociology and psychology of gender roles and same-sex marriage could be a blueprint for judges in other controversial issues, including abortion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It was testimony by people who understood the whole panoply which gender plays in our society and in personal relationships,\" Walker said. \"Trials reveal things that simply cannot come out when you're scratching through old dusty books and records of the long past. And I think there are going to be many enactments affecting the abortion rights in the various states in the wake of the Dobbs decision.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In seeking to block release of the videotapes, attorneys for the ballot measure's proponents argued to the Supreme Court that Walker \"solemnly promised\" in court that the tapes would not be made public, and that doing so now would undermine public faith in the courts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1304/226576/20220531111532780_Hollingsworth%20v.%20Perry%20--%20Brief%20in%20Opp.pdf\">response brief (PDF)\u003c/a>, attorneys for KQED argued that there was never a promise to keep the trial tapes sealed beyond 10 years and that Proposition 8 supporters failed to demonstrate any concrete injury that would come from releasing them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kris Perry, one of the original plaintiffs along with her partner Sandy Stier, said release of the tapes was long overdue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"Since the 2010 ruling striking down Proposition 8, we have fought to have the video record of our historic trial shared with the public,\" Perry said. \"There is no more important time to expose the discriminatory rhetoric of proponents and the courage of the experts, attorneys and plaintiffs in standing up against hate. Even though it's been 12 years since our ruling, we know the fight for marriage equality and many other basic civil rights is still essential and this video shows the evidence for why.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 2009 lawsuit filed by supporters of same-sex marriage against Proposition 8 was considered risky by some progressive legal groups, which worried that a setback in federal court could take decades to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial gained national attention, in part because the legal team seeking to have Proposition 8 struck down was led by conservative Theodore Olson and liberal David Boies, who were on \u003cem>opposite\u003c/em> sides of the infamous Bush v. Gore case following the disputed 2000 presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The three-week trial in 2010 considered a wide range of issues, including the history of marriage, the political power of the LGBTQ+ community, the social and psychological harm of so-called \"conversion therapy\" and how the plaintiffs and their children were personally affected by being denied the right to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1984506746130471324&q=Perry+vs.+Schwarzenegger&hl=en&as_sdt=2006\">Judge Walker's decision in August 2010\u003c/a> struck down \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition\u003c/span> 8 on the basis that it violated the due process and equal protection clauses of the 14th Amendment, saying California had no rational interest in denying marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples. The decision was later upheld in a 2-1 decision by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. In 2013, the Supreme Court declined to take up the case, ruling narrowly that \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition \u003c/span>8 supporters lacked legal standing to appeal the lower court decisions, which opened the way for same-sex marriages to resume in California after a five-year hiatus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hollingsworth v. Perry et al was one of dozens of cases \"denied certiorari\" or denied review by the court today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked before Tuesday's decision when the trial tapes would be made available, a spokesperson for the courts said \"we will work with the judge in the underlying case to make them available promptly. They'll be posted on a publicly available site.\" No additional details were given.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Nearly a decade after a federal judge in San Francisco struck down Proposition 8, the ballot measure banning same-sex marriage in California, videotapes of the trial may finally be available, despite the objections of Prop. 8 supporters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal District Court Judge William Orrick Thursday rejected a motion by Prop. 8 proponents to permanently seal the videotapes, saying the motion contained \"no justification, much less a compelling one, to keep the trial recordings under seal any longer.\" He ordered the recordings to become public next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It's incredibly important to have it be open, not only for the historical record, but so the people can see this particular trial video,\" said Thomas R. Burke the attorney representing KQED. \"It's one of the only federal trial videos of its kind ever in the United States,\" he said. [pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Thomas R. Burke, lawyer on behalf of KQED\"]'It begs the question: What are they trying to hide? Because if they had legitimate concerns about risks to witnesses, they could have put in a declaration.'[/pullquote]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burke added that it would be unusual for a judge to permanently prevent the public from getting access to a trial that was open to the public in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"That is a rare circumstance. But it's particularly troubling in this case where what is being sealed is a record of an admitted historic trial that ultimately allowed in and found in favor of same-sex marriage,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED's Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan said it is a \"victory for transparency and accountability.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the trial began in 2010, District Court Judge Vaughn Walker announced he would allow courtroom cameras to both videotape the proceedings and make the images available in real time to those who wanted to see the trial on a closed circuit system in federal courthouses around the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]Prop. 8 proponents objected, and ultimately the U.S. Supreme Court intervened to block televising the trial. Despite the objections of attorneys on behalf of Prop. 8, Judge Walker continued recording the trial, promising that he would only use them privately to help in writing his opinion after the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The current case has had a lengthy history. Over ten years ago, in 2008 California voters passed Prop. 8 by 52-48%. After the California Supreme Court upheld the measure, opponents sued in federal court, which led to the trial presided over by Judge Walker. In 2010, Walker struck down the law saying it violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In 2013 the U.S. Supreme Court let Walker's decision stand, allowing same-sex marriages to resume in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2017, KQED, supported by other media organizations including the New York Times, AP and CNN, submitted a motion to have the tapes made available to the public. The following year, in 2018, Judge Orrick said that \"compelling justification of judicial integrity\" outweighed the public's right to see the tapes at that time. He based that on Judge Walker's promise to keep the tapes private. But he never suggested they should be sealed indefinitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Prop. 8 claimed releasing the tapes at any point would risk harm to witnesses who testified their opposition to same-sex marriage. However, as Judge Orrick noted, they \"did not submit evidence\" to support that claim which justified sealing the tapes forever. [aside tag=\"lgbt, proposition 8\" label=\"More Related Stories\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"We are deeply disappointed by Judge Orrick’s ruling that 'the compelling justification of judicial integrity' no longer requires the court to honor Judge Walker’s solemn, on the record, commitment that the video tapes of the trial would be used solely for his own in-chambers purposes in rendering his judgment in the case,\" said attorney John Ohlendorf in an email. \"We do not agree that there is a ten-year statute of limitations on judicial integrity, and we are preparing our appeal.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However attorney Thomas Burke said it's never been clear to him why the measure's proponents felt so strongly about preventing the public from seeing the tapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It begs the question: What are they trying to hide? Because if they had legitimate concerns about risks to witnesses, they could have put in a declaration. They've never done that,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burke says it's past time to allow the public to see the trial which led to the historic decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"The trial's over. No more witnesses are happening. The law has been changed,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless a higher court intervenes, the videotapes will be made public August 12, 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[documentcloud url=\"https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6986060-2020-07-09-909-Order-Denying-892-Motion-to.html\" responsive=true text=false]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Note: At the request of KQED's attorney, the author submitted a declaration to the court describing potential editorial uses of the videotapes if they were released.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Nearly a decade after a federal judge in San Francisco struck down Proposition 8, the ballot measure banning same-sex marriage in California, videotapes of the trial may finally be available, despite the objections of Prop. 8 supporters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal District Court Judge William Orrick Thursday rejected a motion by Prop. 8 proponents to permanently seal the videotapes, saying the motion contained \"no justification, much less a compelling one, to keep the trial recordings under seal any longer.\" He ordered the recordings to become public next month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It's incredibly important to have it be open, not only for the historical record, but so the people can see this particular trial video,\" said Thomas R. Burke the attorney representing KQED. \"It's one of the only federal trial videos of its kind ever in the United States,\" he said. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burke added that it would be unusual for a judge to permanently prevent the public from getting access to a trial that was open to the public in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"That is a rare circumstance. But it's particularly troubling in this case where what is being sealed is a record of an admitted historic trial that ultimately allowed in and found in favor of same-sex marriage,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KQED's Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan said it is a \"victory for transparency and accountability.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the trial began in 2010, District Court Judge Vaughn Walker announced he would allow courtroom cameras to both videotape the proceedings and make the images available in real time to those who wanted to see the trial on a closed circuit system in federal courthouses around the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Prop. 8 proponents objected, and ultimately the U.S. Supreme Court intervened to block televising the trial. Despite the objections of attorneys on behalf of Prop. 8, Judge Walker continued recording the trial, promising that he would only use them privately to help in writing his opinion after the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The current case has had a lengthy history. Over ten years ago, in 2008 California voters passed Prop. 8 by 52-48%. After the California Supreme Court upheld the measure, opponents sued in federal court, which led to the trial presided over by Judge Walker. In 2010, Walker struck down the law saying it violated the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In 2013 the U.S. Supreme Court let Walker's decision stand, allowing same-sex marriages to resume in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2017, KQED, supported by other media organizations including the New York Times, AP and CNN, submitted a motion to have the tapes made available to the public. The following year, in 2018, Judge Orrick said that \"compelling justification of judicial integrity\" outweighed the public's right to see the tapes at that time. He based that on Judge Walker's promise to keep the tapes private. But he never suggested they should be sealed indefinitely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys for Prop. 8 claimed releasing the tapes at any point would risk harm to witnesses who testified their opposition to same-sex marriage. However, as Judge Orrick noted, they \"did not submit evidence\" to support that claim which justified sealing the tapes forever. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"We are deeply disappointed by Judge Orrick’s ruling that 'the compelling justification of judicial integrity' no longer requires the court to honor Judge Walker’s solemn, on the record, commitment that the video tapes of the trial would be used solely for his own in-chambers purposes in rendering his judgment in the case,\" said attorney John Ohlendorf in an email. \"We do not agree that there is a ten-year statute of limitations on judicial integrity, and we are preparing our appeal.\"\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However attorney Thomas Burke said it's never been clear to him why the measure's proponents felt so strongly about preventing the public from seeing the tapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"It begs the question: What are they trying to hide? Because if they had legitimate concerns about risks to witnesses, they could have put in a declaration. They've never done that,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burke says it's past time to allow the public to see the trial which led to the historic decision.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\"The trial's over. No more witnesses are happening. The law has been changed,\" Burke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Unless a higher court intervenes, the videotapes will be made public August 12, 2020.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Proposition 8: Revenue Cap on Dialysis Clinics Fails, Supporters to Try Again in 2020",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated Tuesday, 11:27 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California voters on Tuesday rejected a first-of-its-kind ballot measure that would have placed a 15 percent revenue cap on private dialysis clinics in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Voters voted to protect patients,” said Kathy Fairbanks, spokeswoman for the No on 8 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Placed on the ballot by SEIU United Healthcare Workers West (SEIU-UHWW), the measure would have limited dialysis clinics’ revenues to 115 percent of “the sum of all direct patient care services costs and all health care quality improvement costs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the Legislative Analyst’s Office, \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/BallotAnalysis/Proposition?number=8&year=2018\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">these costs include\u003c/a> “non-managerial” staff wages and benefits, staff training and development, drugs and medical supplies, facilities and electronic health information systems. Other costs, such as administrative overhead, would not be counted toward determining the revenue cap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any revenues above that 115 percent threshold would need to be returned to whoever paid for the treatment, either the patient or their insurance provider.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is only the beginning; we are in this for the long haul,” said Emanuel Gonzales, a dialysis patient care technician, in a statement released by the Yes on 8 campaign. “We intend to re-file this initiative for the 2020 ballot in California, and we are preparing to bring it to other states in the 2020 election cycle. We also plan to file a new version of Senate Bill 1156, which would stop a scheme used by the dialysis corporations to boost their profits, but was vetoed by Gov. Jerry Brown. We are working to file that legislation in a number of other states, too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About 80,000 Californians get dialysis treatments at private clinics each month, according to the Legislative Analyst’s Office. Dialysis mimics the role of healthy kidneys, filtering a patient’s blood via a machine in a process that lasts several hours and needs to be done three times a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both sides of the issue said they were acting in the best interest of dialysis patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proponents, led by SEIU-UHWW, pointed to reports of malfunctioning equipment, \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailynews.com/2018/04/07/the-dialysis-industry-needs-reform-in-california/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">dirty clinics\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/soapbox/article207146074.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">lack of staffing\u003c/a> that they say are emblematic of an industry looking to cut corners at the expense of patient care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is an industry that has operated under the radar for too long,” said Sean Wherley, a spokesman for Yes on 8, in an interview before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wherley pointed to the fact the DaVita and Fresenius Medical Care, the two large corporations that operate 72 percent of the dialysis clinics in the state, pulled in nearly $4 billion in profits in 2017. He said Proposition 8 would have pushed dialysis clinics to invest more in patient care by increasing hiring, purchasing new equipment and improving facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure didn’t explicitly force clinics to make these changes, but increasing costs in these areas covered under the umbrella of “direct patient care services costs and all health care quality improvement costs” would help them avoid having to refund revenues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Opponents countered that the cap would force them to close clinics, forcing patients to travel farther to receive life-sustaining care. They argued it would especially hit clinics that serve primarily low-income patients covered by Medicare or Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Bryan Wong, a nephrologist who serves as the medical director at a Fresenius Medical Care dialysis clinic in Oakland and opposes Proposition 8, compared the situation to the lack of grocery stores in disadvantaged neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The likes of Safeway and Lucky and Ralphs and Whole Foods, they also make lots of profit. Why would they want to operate in a neighborhood that is unprofitable?” he said in an interview before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s unclear how the impacts of the cap would have played out. This would’ve been a first-of-its kind regulation by a state government over a private health care industry. There was also uncertainty over which costs would’ve counted toward the cap, such as staff members who serve both managerial and patient care roles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 8 was by far the most expensive of the 11 statewide propositions this year. Opponents of the proposition spent more than $110 million, blanketing the airwaves with TV ads encouraging voters to reject the measure. The overwhelmingly majority of that spending—more than $100 million—came from DaVita and Fresenius Medical Care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That dwarfed the $20 million spent by supporters of the measure, who said the dialysis companies used their deep pockets to control the narrative around the proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They succeeded in scaring the newspapers that the industry will collapse,” Wherley said, referring to the fact that every major newspaper in the state opposed Proposition 8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Editorial boards across the state pointed to the measure’s role as a bargaining chip (SEIU has unsuccessfully tried to unionize dialysis clinic workers), the unforgiving nature of the initiative process and the uncertainty surrounding the impact of the proposition as the reasons for their disapproval.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "Proposition 8: Revenue Cap on Dialysis Clinics Fails, Supporters to Try Again in 2020 | KQED",
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"headline": "Proposition 8: Revenue Cap on Dialysis Clinics Fails, Supporters to Try Again in 2020",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated Tuesday, 11:27 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California voters on Tuesday rejected a first-of-its-kind ballot measure that would have placed a 15 percent revenue cap on private dialysis clinics in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Voters voted to protect patients,” said Kathy Fairbanks, spokeswoman for the No on 8 campaign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Placed on the ballot by SEIU United Healthcare Workers West (SEIU-UHWW), the measure would have limited dialysis clinics’ revenues to 115 percent of “the sum of all direct patient care services costs and all health care quality improvement costs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the Legislative Analyst’s Office, \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/BallotAnalysis/Proposition?number=8&year=2018\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">these costs include\u003c/a> “non-managerial” staff wages and benefits, staff training and development, drugs and medical supplies, facilities and electronic health information systems. Other costs, such as administrative overhead, would not be counted toward determining the revenue cap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any revenues above that 115 percent threshold would need to be returned to whoever paid for the treatment, either the patient or their insurance provider.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is only the beginning; we are in this for the long haul,” said Emanuel Gonzales, a dialysis patient care technician, in a statement released by the Yes on 8 campaign. “We intend to re-file this initiative for the 2020 ballot in California, and we are preparing to bring it to other states in the 2020 election cycle. We also plan to file a new version of Senate Bill 1156, which would stop a scheme used by the dialysis corporations to boost their profits, but was vetoed by Gov. Jerry Brown. We are working to file that legislation in a number of other states, too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About 80,000 Californians get dialysis treatments at private clinics each month, according to the Legislative Analyst’s Office. Dialysis mimics the role of healthy kidneys, filtering a patient’s blood via a machine in a process that lasts several hours and needs to be done three times a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both sides of the issue said they were acting in the best interest of dialysis patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proponents, led by SEIU-UHWW, pointed to reports of malfunctioning equipment, \u003ca href=\"https://www.dailynews.com/2018/04/07/the-dialysis-industry-needs-reform-in-california/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">dirty clinics\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/soapbox/article207146074.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">lack of staffing\u003c/a> that they say are emblematic of an industry looking to cut corners at the expense of patient care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is an industry that has operated under the radar for too long,” said Sean Wherley, a spokesman for Yes on 8, in an interview before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wherley pointed to the fact the DaVita and Fresenius Medical Care, the two large corporations that operate 72 percent of the dialysis clinics in the state, pulled in nearly $4 billion in profits in 2017. He said Proposition 8 would have pushed dialysis clinics to invest more in patient care by increasing hiring, purchasing new equipment and improving facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The measure didn’t explicitly force clinics to make these changes, but increasing costs in these areas covered under the umbrella of “direct patient care services costs and all health care quality improvement costs” would help them avoid having to refund revenues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Opponents countered that the cap would force them to close clinics, forcing patients to travel farther to receive life-sustaining care. They argued it would especially hit clinics that serve primarily low-income patients covered by Medicare or Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dr. Bryan Wong, a nephrologist who serves as the medical director at a Fresenius Medical Care dialysis clinic in Oakland and opposes Proposition 8, compared the situation to the lack of grocery stores in disadvantaged neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The likes of Safeway and Lucky and Ralphs and Whole Foods, they also make lots of profit. Why would they want to operate in a neighborhood that is unprofitable?” he said in an interview before Election Day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s unclear how the impacts of the cap would have played out. This would’ve been a first-of-its kind regulation by a state government over a private health care industry. There was also uncertainty over which costs would’ve counted toward the cap, such as staff members who serve both managerial and patient care roles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 8 was by far the most expensive of the 11 statewide propositions this year. Opponents of the proposition spent more than $110 million, blanketing the airwaves with TV ads encouraging voters to reject the measure. The overwhelmingly majority of that spending—more than $100 million—came from DaVita and Fresenius Medical Care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That dwarfed the $20 million spent by supporters of the measure, who said the dialysis companies used their deep pockets to control the narrative around the proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They succeeded in scaring the newspapers that the industry will collapse,” Wherley said, referring to the fact that every major newspaper in the state opposed Proposition 8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Editorial boards across the state pointed to the measure’s role as a bargaining chip (SEIU has unsuccessfully tried to unionize dialysis clinic workers), the unforgiving nature of the initiative process and the uncertainty surrounding the impact of the proposition as the reasons for their disapproval.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "voting-on-emt-breaks-childrens-hospitals-and-dialysis-props-4-8-and-11-explained",
"title": "Voting on EMT Breaks, Children's Hospitals and Dialysis Profits. Propositions 4, 8 and 11 Explained",
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"headTitle": "Voting on EMT Breaks, Children’s Hospitals and Dialysis Profits. Propositions 4, 8 and 11 Explained | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>This whole week, Bay Curious is exploring the 11 statewide propositions on the California ballot for a mini-series we’re calling “Bay Curious Prop Week.” Each day, we’re dropping episodes looking at what the propositions are and how they came to be on the ballot in the first place. If you want to learn more about what’s on your California ballot, check out KQED’s \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/elections\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">2018 Voter Guide\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll also be hosting a series of Facebook Live Q&As.\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/146244569661530/\">Prop 5, Property Tax Transfer – 12 p.m., Oct. 17\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/1889420071352971/\">Prop 10, Rent Control – 12 p.m., Oct. 24\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can replay our Q&A on \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/331161234107297/\"> Proposition 6, the gas tax repeal.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below is a transcript of our episode on Propositions 4, 8 and 11 — the three health-related propositions on the November ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>OLIVIA ALLEN-PRICE: Hey guys! Here we are, day four of Bay Curious Prop Week. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. If you’re just tuning in, all week we’ve been breaking down the 11 statewide initiatives on this November’s ballot. Today, we’ll look at the three health-related props. They’re easy to overlook but could have a big impact on you or someone you love. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All righty. Let’s dive in. The three props we’ll get to today are Proposition 11…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should EMTs and paramedics be allowed to take off-duty breaks?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Proposition 4…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should California issue bonds to help with improvements at children’s hospitals?\u003cbr>\n[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003cbr>\nALLEN-PRICE: And Proposition 8…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should the state cap how much profit dialysis clinics can make?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: First up on today’s tour is Prop 11. I headed to the newsroom and asked health reporter April Dembosky to let us know what it’s all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>APRIL DEMBOSKY: Prop 11 asks voters to decide if EMTs and paramedics — the people who work on ambulances — should be allowed to take uninterrupted off-duty breaks. So when they take a rest break or go out on their lunch break, are they allowed to turn off their pagers and radios so they can get a true break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[2018-prop prop=11]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Now this is one of those props that is so specific and kind of in the weeds that it makes me think that there must be a story behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: You are absolutely right. So here’s the status quo of how it works for ambulance drivers. They are on a 12-hour shift. You know, they’re responding to emergencies. Maybe they have a lull. They drive up to McDonald’s or Starbucks to take a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JASON BROLLINI: If I’m lucky, I can sit for 30 minutes and get a meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: This is Jason Brollini. He leads one of the main ambulance drivers unions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: What a more common experience is, we order our food, and we’re interrupted at some point. Sometimes those interruptions are for true emergencies, but sometimes they’re not. Sometimes they’re non-emergency calls where there isn’t a life-threatening incident that needs to be mitigated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: This is the way it’s been working in California for many, many years. But in 2016, there was a court case in California, and it was actually on behalf of security guards. Security guards also have to be on duty while they take breaks. And they said, “Hey, if I have to be on duty, I’m not actually on break.” And the Supreme Court agreed with them, said yep, when you look at California’s labor code, if you want to have a break, you have to actually be off duty. And so the ambulance industry looked at this and they thought, “Oh no, this is going to apply to us, too.” And so they said we don’t want to do that. We’re going to have this proposition instead to try to carve out a law that is specifically for paramedics and EMTs to just continue doing their job the way they always have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this is really a preemptive proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Sort of because there were actually negotiations in the Legislature between ambulance companies and the unions who represent EMTs and paramedics. They tried to address this head on, and negotiations between those two parties broke down, and that’s why the ambulance industry then put Proposition 11 on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So ambulance drivers and workers, what’s their take on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: The ambulance staff, for the most part, says totally, we don’t want anybody getting hurt. If I’m on my lunch break and there’s a kid choking a couple blocks down the street…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: We are going to go to that call. 100 percent of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: But at the same time, they’re saying we work these 12-hour shifts. Sometimes work is so busy that it’s six or seven hours before I get to take a lunch break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: Starting to get dizzy and lightheaded because my blood sugar is low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Not only that, I just responded to this really stressful call, like, I could really use a few minutes to just decompress, get back to my baseline, eat some food. And so they want the workers to be at the top of their game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: You know, why is the ambulance industry different from any other industry where people are entitled to a break? What makes them kind of unique here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Well it’s definitely the public safety issue, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: While it is \u003cem>public\u003c/em> safety, about 75 percent of California’s 911 calls are answered by \u003cem>private\u003c/em> companies. Carol Meyer works for McCormick Ambulance Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CAROL MEYER: There is an individual who has a heart attack, and we can’t call that vehicle, we have to call the next vehicle that is available and not on a break. And minutes make a big difference when it’s life and death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Most ambulance companies have contracts with the counties where they work. You know, part of what they’re concerned about is that if you have one or two ambulances from your fleet that are just totally out of service, that could compromise how well and how quickly you can respond to those calls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MEYER: Having those vehicles available so that if something happens they can be called is critical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: So there’s a serious public safety issue, but it really does come down to money, and the Legislative Analyst’s Office estimated costs could go up 25 percent in order to have just enough extra ambulances on the road to cover people. And so when you start looking at cutting into those profit margins, you have these companies deciding whether or not it’s worth it for them to continue providing this service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So in a nutshell, a yes vote on Prop 11 would mean you think EMTs and paramedics should stay on call during their breaks. A no vote means in your eyes, ambulance companies should follow the same labor laws as everybody else. Next up is Proposition 4, one of the four bonds on the ballot this year. Now a bond is basically an IOU. The state sells a piece of paper that says if you give us the money we need now, we promise to pay you back later with interest. It’s a quick way for governments to get cash for big projects, and it’s a pretty safe investment for the people buying the bonds, too. Health reporter Laura Klivans explains what this bond, Proposition 4, would do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[2018-prop prop=4]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAURA KLIVANS: So this proposition is about the state being able to sell $1.5 billion in bonds so that they can use that to fund infrastructure improvements for children’s hospitals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: The money from this bond will be used for capital improvements — essentially fixing up hospital buildings. Right now, a lot of hospitals are in the process of making seismic updates. These are required by the state to make their buildings safer in the event of an earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: The majority of the money will go to private nonprofit children’s hospitals. About 70 percent of it will. And then a good portion of it, about 18 percent, goes to the UC children’s hospitals and then other hospitals will get some of it too. And those are hospitals that will have, like, a children’s wing or a specific children’s program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Laura talked to Ann-Louise Kuhns, the president of the California Children’s Hospital Association. She says for an example of where this money could go locally, look to Children’s Hospital Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ANN-LOUISE KUHNS: You know, they provide some of the most specialized care for some of the most medically fragile kids in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: They have a sickle cell program, and it’s one of two in the state. And they see about 700 patients a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: And most of those patients are covered by Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: Which is a program for low-income families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: Just the operational costs of running that center… just to run it the hospital loses about $3.5 million every year because what they receive from Medi-Cal isn’t sufficient to cover their costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: And part of the space that they use for that program is using buildings and facilities that are over 100 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: So they need to make infrastructure improvements. They need to modernize their pediatric intensive care unit and as well as their neonatal intensive care unit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: So that’s what this bond would do. It would upgrade, like, the sickle cell wing at Children’s Hospital Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this is not exactly like a new bond initiative. We’ve seen similar bonds in 2004 and 2008 for children’s hospitals. Why is this a thing that just keeps coming onto our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: Great question. I also was curious about that, so I asked the folks behind the proposition, and they think that, no, we’re going to meet seismic requirements and then it’s going to be a while before we need any kind of money for infrastructure again like this.\u003cbr>\n[baycuriousbug]\u003cbr>\nALLEN-PRICE: Is anyone against this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: I think people who would be against this are folks that realize that bonds come from somewhere. It’s not just free money. They need to be repaid. They need to be repaid with interest. And how is this money held accountable?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: You are a yes on Prop 4 if you think the state should use bonds to help to fund improvements at children’s hospitals. And you’re a no if you think they should find that money some other way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All righty. Last up we arrive at Proposition 8. It’s about reimbursement payouts from dialysis clinics. If that sounds super wonky to you, it’s because it is. But if passed, it would be groundbreaking regulation in the health care industry. People across the country are watching this one. I dropped in on health editor Carrie Feibel to learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[2018-prop prop=8]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CARRIE FEIBEL: Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: How’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Well, thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Could you start by telling us what is dialysis and who uses it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: So dialysis is basically a machine that replaces your kidney, and for people who have failing kidneys — and many of them are waiting for a kidney transplant that hopefully they’ll get but some of them don’t — but they can live many, many years getting dialysis. It just cleans their blood of all the toxins and other things that our kidneys are usually doing. But you need to get it three times a week, three-to-four hours each. Which means that there has to be dialysis clinics near where people live, and there’s almost 600 clinics across California. So it’s a big industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: And these are all private clinics for the most part? Or…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: There’s a few that are owned by county hospitals and such. But for the most part they’re private clinics owned by for-profit companies, and there’s been more scrutiny lately on, you know, what the dialysis industry is up to and how much profit they’re making and that’s what brings us to this proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All right, so let’s get to this Prop 8. What are voters being asked to weigh in on here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Well this is a big deal at least in health care because basically California, if this passes, would be able to cap the amount of revenue a dialysis clinic company could get per patient and that would therefore indirectly cap how much profit and overhead they could take out of that clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: This wouldn’t directly tell dialysis clinics what they can charge patients. Instead it would tell them they can only take in 15 percent more money than they spend on patient treatment. If they go over that 15 percent cap…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Then they would have to rebate whoever paid for the dialysis, maybe the patient but more likely their insurance company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So who’s on which side of the story? Who’s for and against?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: The main sponsor of this is a union that has been trying to unionize dialysis clinic workers for a long time, and their hope is that this revenue cap would force the companies to reinvest in the clinic — put it into higher wages or better training for the workers or more drugs and tubing and supplies for the machines, which ultimately, the hope is, that would make a safer, more stable experience getting dialysis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this would, in effect, force these companies to reinvest more of the funds than perhaps they’re reinvesting now. At least that’s what the unions think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: That’s what the unions think, and that’s the whole thrust of it. And the dialysis companies say no that’s not what’s going to happen. What you’re actually going to do is really get into our business sheets and force us to close clinics. So it’s really unclear what the business ripple effect will be of this. And I think that the dialysis industry across the country is definitely watching this. If this happens here, they are afraid of a domino effect in all the states that could sort of potentially impact their bottom lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So it’s a pretty radical ballot initiative really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: It’s an experiment, for sure, pushing a big lever on an industry that’s important to a lot of Californians health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: A vote for Prop 8 says you think this experiment is worth trying to get dialysis clinics to invest more in patient care. A no vote says this is too risky and could actually hurt patients by forcing clinics to shut down. That’s 10 props down and one more to go for Prop week. Today’s show was produced by Ryan Levi. Tomorrow we take on Prop 10 and the topic of rent control. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This whole week, Bay Curious is exploring the 11 statewide propositions on the California ballot for a mini-series we’re calling “Bay Curious Prop Week.” Each day, we’re dropping episodes looking at what the propositions are and how they came to be on the ballot in the first place. If you want to learn more about what’s on your California ballot, check out KQED’s \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/elections\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">2018 Voter Guide\u003c/a>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ll also be hosting a series of Facebook Live Q&As.\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/146244569661530/\">Prop 5, Property Tax Transfer – 12 p.m., Oct. 17\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/1889420071352971/\">Prop 10, Rent Control – 12 p.m., Oct. 24\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can replay our Q&A on \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/events/331161234107297/\"> Proposition 6, the gas tax repeal.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below is a transcript of our episode on Propositions 4, 8 and 11 — the three health-related propositions on the November ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003chr>\n\u003cp>OLIVIA ALLEN-PRICE: Hey guys! Here we are, day four of Bay Curious Prop Week. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. If you’re just tuning in, all week we’ve been breaking down the 11 statewide initiatives on this November’s ballot. Today, we’ll look at the three health-related props. They’re easy to overlook but could have a big impact on you or someone you love. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Theme music \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All righty. Let’s dive in. The three props we’ll get to today are Proposition 11…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should EMTs and paramedics be allowed to take off-duty breaks?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Proposition 4…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should California issue bonds to help with improvements at children’s hospitals?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nALLEN-PRICE: And Proposition 8…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>VOICE OVER: Should the state cap how much profit dialysis clinics can make?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: First up on today’s tour is Prop 11. I headed to the newsroom and asked health reporter April Dembosky to let us know what it’s all about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>APRIL DEMBOSKY: Prop 11 asks voters to decide if EMTs and paramedics — the people who work on ambulances — should be allowed to take uninterrupted off-duty breaks. So when they take a rest break or go out on their lunch break, are they allowed to turn off their pagers and radios so they can get a true break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Now this is one of those props that is so specific and kind of in the weeds that it makes me think that there must be a story behind it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: You are absolutely right. So here’s the status quo of how it works for ambulance drivers. They are on a 12-hour shift. You know, they’re responding to emergencies. Maybe they have a lull. They drive up to McDonald’s or Starbucks to take a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>JASON BROLLINI: If I’m lucky, I can sit for 30 minutes and get a meal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: This is Jason Brollini. He leads one of the main ambulance drivers unions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: What a more common experience is, we order our food, and we’re interrupted at some point. Sometimes those interruptions are for true emergencies, but sometimes they’re not. Sometimes they’re non-emergency calls where there isn’t a life-threatening incident that needs to be mitigated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: This is the way it’s been working in California for many, many years. But in 2016, there was a court case in California, and it was actually on behalf of security guards. Security guards also have to be on duty while they take breaks. And they said, “Hey, if I have to be on duty, I’m not actually on break.” And the Supreme Court agreed with them, said yep, when you look at California’s labor code, if you want to have a break, you have to actually be off duty. And so the ambulance industry looked at this and they thought, “Oh no, this is going to apply to us, too.” And so they said we don’t want to do that. We’re going to have this proposition instead to try to carve out a law that is specifically for paramedics and EMTs to just continue doing their job the way they always have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this is really a preemptive proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Sort of because there were actually negotiations in the Legislature between ambulance companies and the unions who represent EMTs and paramedics. They tried to address this head on, and negotiations between those two parties broke down, and that’s why the ambulance industry then put Proposition 11 on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So ambulance drivers and workers, what’s their take on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: The ambulance staff, for the most part, says totally, we don’t want anybody getting hurt. If I’m on my lunch break and there’s a kid choking a couple blocks down the street…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: We are going to go to that call. 100 percent of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: But at the same time, they’re saying we work these 12-hour shifts. Sometimes work is so busy that it’s six or seven hours before I get to take a lunch break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BROLLINI: Starting to get dizzy and lightheaded because my blood sugar is low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Not only that, I just responded to this really stressful call, like, I could really use a few minutes to just decompress, get back to my baseline, eat some food. And so they want the workers to be at the top of their game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: You know, why is the ambulance industry different from any other industry where people are entitled to a break? What makes them kind of unique here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Well it’s definitely the public safety issue, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: While it is \u003cem>public\u003c/em> safety, about 75 percent of California’s 911 calls are answered by \u003cem>private\u003c/em> companies. Carol Meyer works for McCormick Ambulance Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CAROL MEYER: There is an individual who has a heart attack, and we can’t call that vehicle, we have to call the next vehicle that is available and not on a break. And minutes make a big difference when it’s life and death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: Most ambulance companies have contracts with the counties where they work. You know, part of what they’re concerned about is that if you have one or two ambulances from your fleet that are just totally out of service, that could compromise how well and how quickly you can respond to those calls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MEYER: Having those vehicles available so that if something happens they can be called is critical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DEMBOSKY: So there’s a serious public safety issue, but it really does come down to money, and the Legislative Analyst’s Office estimated costs could go up 25 percent in order to have just enough extra ambulances on the road to cover people. And so when you start looking at cutting into those profit margins, you have these companies deciding whether or not it’s worth it for them to continue providing this service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So in a nutshell, a yes vote on Prop 11 would mean you think EMTs and paramedics should stay on call during their breaks. A no vote means in your eyes, ambulance companies should follow the same labor laws as everybody else. Next up is Proposition 4, one of the four bonds on the ballot this year. Now a bond is basically an IOU. The state sells a piece of paper that says if you give us the money we need now, we promise to pay you back later with interest. It’s a quick way for governments to get cash for big projects, and it’s a pretty safe investment for the people buying the bonds, too. Health reporter Laura Klivans explains what this bond, Proposition 4, would do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>LAURA KLIVANS: So this proposition is about the state being able to sell $1.5 billion in bonds so that they can use that to fund infrastructure improvements for children’s hospitals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: The money from this bond will be used for capital improvements — essentially fixing up hospital buildings. Right now, a lot of hospitals are in the process of making seismic updates. These are required by the state to make their buildings safer in the event of an earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: The majority of the money will go to private nonprofit children’s hospitals. About 70 percent of it will. And then a good portion of it, about 18 percent, goes to the UC children’s hospitals and then other hospitals will get some of it too. And those are hospitals that will have, like, a children’s wing or a specific children’s program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Laura talked to Ann-Louise Kuhns, the president of the California Children’s Hospital Association. She says for an example of where this money could go locally, look to Children’s Hospital Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ANN-LOUISE KUHNS: You know, they provide some of the most specialized care for some of the most medically fragile kids in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: They have a sickle cell program, and it’s one of two in the state. And they see about 700 patients a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: And most of those patients are covered by Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: Which is a program for low-income families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: Just the operational costs of running that center… just to run it the hospital loses about $3.5 million every year because what they receive from Medi-Cal isn’t sufficient to cover their costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: And part of the space that they use for that program is using buildings and facilities that are over 100 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KUHNS: So they need to make infrastructure improvements. They need to modernize their pediatric intensive care unit and as well as their neonatal intensive care unit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: So that’s what this bond would do. It would upgrade, like, the sickle cell wing at Children’s Hospital Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this is not exactly like a new bond initiative. We’ve seen similar bonds in 2004 and 2008 for children’s hospitals. Why is this a thing that just keeps coming onto our ballot?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: Great question. I also was curious about that, so I asked the folks behind the proposition, and they think that, no, we’re going to meet seismic requirements and then it’s going to be a while before we need any kind of money for infrastructure again like this.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nALLEN-PRICE: Is anyone against this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>KLIVANS: I think people who would be against this are folks that realize that bonds come from somewhere. It’s not just free money. They need to be repaid. They need to be repaid with interest. And how is this money held accountable?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: You are a yes on Prop 4 if you think the state should use bonds to help to fund improvements at children’s hospitals. And you’re a no if you think they should find that money some other way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All righty. Last up we arrive at Proposition 8. It’s about reimbursement payouts from dialysis clinics. If that sounds super wonky to you, it’s because it is. But if passed, it would be groundbreaking regulation in the health care industry. People across the country are watching this one. I dropped in on health editor Carrie Feibel to learn more about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CARRIE FEIBEL: Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: How’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Well, thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: Could you start by telling us what is dialysis and who uses it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: So dialysis is basically a machine that replaces your kidney, and for people who have failing kidneys — and many of them are waiting for a kidney transplant that hopefully they’ll get but some of them don’t — but they can live many, many years getting dialysis. It just cleans their blood of all the toxins and other things that our kidneys are usually doing. But you need to get it three times a week, three-to-four hours each. Which means that there has to be dialysis clinics near where people live, and there’s almost 600 clinics across California. So it’s a big industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: And these are all private clinics for the most part? Or…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: There’s a few that are owned by county hospitals and such. But for the most part they’re private clinics owned by for-profit companies, and there’s been more scrutiny lately on, you know, what the dialysis industry is up to and how much profit they’re making and that’s what brings us to this proposition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: All right, so let’s get to this Prop 8. What are voters being asked to weigh in on here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Well this is a big deal at least in health care because basically California, if this passes, would be able to cap the amount of revenue a dialysis clinic company could get per patient and that would therefore indirectly cap how much profit and overhead they could take out of that clinic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: This wouldn’t directly tell dialysis clinics what they can charge patients. Instead it would tell them they can only take in 15 percent more money than they spend on patient treatment. If they go over that 15 percent cap…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: Then they would have to rebate whoever paid for the dialysis, maybe the patient but more likely their insurance company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So who’s on which side of the story? Who’s for and against?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: The main sponsor of this is a union that has been trying to unionize dialysis clinic workers for a long time, and their hope is that this revenue cap would force the companies to reinvest in the clinic — put it into higher wages or better training for the workers or more drugs and tubing and supplies for the machines, which ultimately, the hope is, that would make a safer, more stable experience getting dialysis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So this would, in effect, force these companies to reinvest more of the funds than perhaps they’re reinvesting now. At least that’s what the unions think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: That’s what the unions think, and that’s the whole thrust of it. And the dialysis companies say no that’s not what’s going to happen. What you’re actually going to do is really get into our business sheets and force us to close clinics. So it’s really unclear what the business ripple effect will be of this. And I think that the dialysis industry across the country is definitely watching this. If this happens here, they are afraid of a domino effect in all the states that could sort of potentially impact their bottom lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: So it’s a pretty radical ballot initiative really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>FEIBEL: It’s an experiment, for sure, pushing a big lever on an industry that’s important to a lot of Californians health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>ALLEN-PRICE: A vote for Prop 8 says you think this experiment is worth trying to get dialysis clinics to invest more in patient care. A no vote says this is too risky and could actually hurt patients by forcing clinics to shut down. That’s 10 props down and one more to go for Prop week. Today’s show was produced by Ryan Levi. Tomorrow we take on Prop 10 and the topic of rent control. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
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},
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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"order": 8
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},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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},
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"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
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