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"content": "\u003cp>A San Francisco judge has set a trial date for David DePape to face attempted murder and other state-level charges for attempting to kidnap Nancy Pelosi last year and striking her husband repeatedly in the head with a hammer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If that’s beginning to sound like deja vu, there’s good reason: DePape was already found guilty on federal charges of attempting to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and assaulting her husband after a weeklong trial earlier this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But facing a second trial may mean it’s far more likely DePape will take a plea deal in his state case, experts told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Jessica Levinson, professor, Loyola Law School in Los Angeles\"]‘They may just find that there is a way to settle this without spending the time and resources necessary for a trial.’[/pullquote]When asked Wednesday if he would take a plea deal, DePape’s public defender, Adam Lipson, told reporters outside the courtroom, “Anything is possible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two trials are related but distinct: The federal case \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967427/depapes-motivation-for-trying-to-kidnap-nancy-pelosi-is-key-defense-says-in-closing-argument\">hinged on the motivations for the attack and attempted kidnapping\u003c/a>, with both charges requiring a suspect intended to impede or interfere with a federal official’s duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This second trial, now set for Jan. 12, will see DePape face state charges, which by all accounts are far more straightforward. He’s accused of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, elder abuse, residential burglary, false imprisonment and threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=\"news_11966865,news_11967247,news_11967180\" label=\"Related Stories\"]That may mean DePape faces even more time in prison for related crimes. And DePape’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">guilty verdict in his federal trial\u003c/a> may lead to a plea deal in state court, one legal expert said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They may just find that there is a way to settle this without spending the time and resources necessary for a trial,” said Loyola law professor Jessica Levinson, adding that the case is likely an easier win for the prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rory Little, a professor of law at UC Law SF, agreed. He said a second conviction may mean DePape serves a stint in state prison after federal prison or serves both sentences simultaneously, depending on what attorneys agree to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those are up in the air,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape has yet to be sentenced in federal court, where he faces a maximum of 50 years in prison, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office. A sentencing date may emerge in a federal post-trial hearing set for Dec. 13. As for his state charges, those carry a potential sentence of 13 years to life imprisonment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the elements of the state charges against DePape have already been proven by abundant video and other evidence – including DePape’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">own repeated admissions\u003c/a> – presented at the federal trial that ended with a guilty verdict on Nov. 16.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was “right in front of cops, too,” DePape said to a paramedic on a recording from the night of the attack, which prosecutors played for a federal jury just two weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cops watched me do it. You guys need evidence? There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it,” he said on the recording.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levinson said the mountain of video evidence introduced in federal court – which includes that interview – would almost certainly come into play again on the state level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966378/federal-trial-set-to-start-for-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband-with-a-hammer\">broke into the Pelosi home a year ago\u003c/a>, headed to the third floor where Paul Pelosi lay sleeping and woke him, asking for Nancy Pelosi, who was in Washington D.C. Paul Pelosi managed to call 911. Police officers arrived in the early hours of the morning on Oct. 28, 2022, and when they ordered DePape to drop the hammer he was holding, DePape refused and then bludgeoned Paul Pelosi three times in the skull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape told police details of his plans after his immediate arrest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He said that he wanted to hold Nancy Pelosi hostage and get her to tell him the truth and that if she wasn’t going to tell him the truth, he would break her kneecaps,” San Francisco Police Department Lt. Carla Hurley testified previously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testifying in his own defense in the federal trial, DePape said he planned to wear an inflatable unicorn costume while livestreaming his interrogation of Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congress uniquely crafted the federal charges to guard against the assault of federal officials and require that the suspect had the “intent to impede, intimidate or interfere” with a federal official’s duties or “on account of” those duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In federal court, DePape’s defense attorneys unsuccessfully leaned into those requirements, arguing that he was not motivated by Nancy Pelosi’s actual duties but rather by incredible right-wing conspiracies that are detached from reality. On the witness stand, DePape described his descent into a conspiratorial rabbit hole by listening to hours and hours of right-wing YouTube videos while he played video games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That defense strategy echoes ones used\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\"> largely unsuccessfully\u003c/a> by attorneys defending Jan. 6, 2021 insurrectionists earlier this year, including arguments that focused on defendants’ conspiratorial leanings and portrayed them as unaware of the “official duties” of their targets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By contrast, only one of DePape’s state charges hinges on Nancy Pelosi’s status as a U.S. representative — threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rest are charges that could’ve been brought against him for attacking anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a breaking story and may be updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>That may mean DePape faces even more time in prison for related crimes. And DePape’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">guilty verdict in his federal trial\u003c/a> may lead to a plea deal in state court, one legal expert said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They may just find that there is a way to settle this without spending the time and resources necessary for a trial,” said Loyola law professor Jessica Levinson, adding that the case is likely an easier win for the prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rory Little, a professor of law at UC Law SF, agreed. He said a second conviction may mean DePape serves a stint in state prison after federal prison or serves both sentences simultaneously, depending on what attorneys agree to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those are up in the air,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape has yet to be sentenced in federal court, where he faces a maximum of 50 years in prison, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office. A sentencing date may emerge in a federal post-trial hearing set for Dec. 13. As for his state charges, those carry a potential sentence of 13 years to life imprisonment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of the elements of the state charges against DePape have already been proven by abundant video and other evidence – including DePape’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">own repeated admissions\u003c/a> – presented at the federal trial that ended with a guilty verdict on Nov. 16.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was “right in front of cops, too,” DePape said to a paramedic on a recording from the night of the attack, which prosecutors played for a federal jury just two weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cops watched me do it. You guys need evidence? There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it,” he said on the recording.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levinson said the mountain of video evidence introduced in federal court – which includes that interview – would almost certainly come into play again on the state level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966378/federal-trial-set-to-start-for-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband-with-a-hammer\">broke into the Pelosi home a year ago\u003c/a>, headed to the third floor where Paul Pelosi lay sleeping and woke him, asking for Nancy Pelosi, who was in Washington D.C. Paul Pelosi managed to call 911. Police officers arrived in the early hours of the morning on Oct. 28, 2022, and when they ordered DePape to drop the hammer he was holding, DePape refused and then bludgeoned Paul Pelosi three times in the skull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape told police details of his plans after his immediate arrest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He said that he wanted to hold Nancy Pelosi hostage and get her to tell him the truth and that if she wasn’t going to tell him the truth, he would break her kneecaps,” San Francisco Police Department Lt. Carla Hurley testified previously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testifying in his own defense in the federal trial, DePape said he planned to wear an inflatable unicorn costume while livestreaming his interrogation of Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Congress uniquely crafted the federal charges to guard against the assault of federal officials and require that the suspect had the “intent to impede, intimidate or interfere” with a federal official’s duties or “on account of” those duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In federal court, DePape’s defense attorneys unsuccessfully leaned into those requirements, arguing that he was not motivated by Nancy Pelosi’s actual duties but rather by incredible right-wing conspiracies that are detached from reality. On the witness stand, DePape described his descent into a conspiratorial rabbit hole by listening to hours and hours of right-wing YouTube videos while he played video games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That defense strategy echoes ones used\u003ca href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\"> largely unsuccessfully\u003c/a> by attorneys defending Jan. 6, 2021 insurrectionists earlier this year, including arguments that focused on defendants’ conspiratorial leanings and portrayed them as unaware of the “official duties” of their targets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By contrast, only one of DePape’s state charges hinges on Nancy Pelosi’s status as a U.S. representative — threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The rest are charges that could’ve been brought against him for attacking anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a breaking story and may be updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With thousands of people taking to the streets on either side of the issue of Israel’s siege of Gaza, how are the Bay Area’s representatives in Congress weighing their position on the issue?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4669437820\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://kqed.applytojob.com/apply/g81IJAEpax/Intern-The-Bay-Podcast\">Apply to be our intern!\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Ericka and it’s deadline day. If you want to be our intern here at the bay and help us make this show, you better get your application in. It’s 16 hours a week. Yes, it is paid. And you get to work with me. So get that app in. Check out the link in our show notes for that. All right. Here’s the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Hamas’s attack on Israel and Israel’s siege of Gaza in response has drawn thousands of people to the streets in protest. You’ll hear demands for a ceasefire and calls to bring home the Israeli hostages. You’ll also hear cries to call your reps. So amidst the protests and public outrage, how exactly are our Bay Area representatives weighing their stance in Congress?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s not just what is my sort of emotional reaction to what’s happening in Gaza. It’s the broader diplomatic, political, economic and military picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today I talk with KQED political correspondent Marisa Lagos about where the Bay Area’s representatives in Congress stand on the situation in Gaza. So, Marisa, we sent you on a little journey to see where the Bay Area’s elected leaders and our congressional delegation stands on Israel and Palestine and what’s happening in Gaza. And one person that you wanted to talk to to sort of get inside the minds of these electeds was Congressman Ro Khanna. Remind us who he is and why did you want to talk to him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, one, because he’s willing to talk honestly. He is one of our most accessible public officials in the Bay Area. And it’s not just that he’ll jump on the phone with you. It’s that he’s unusually sort of willing to be open about his thought processes and like answer tough questions, I would say. When he started his career, he was very much aligned with the sort of Bernie Sanders wing of the party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>But over the years in Congress, we’ve seen him become a pragmatic progressive. There’s thoughts that he might want to run for president one day. He represents Silicon Valley, and I think he often is taking a little bit of a less sort of reflexive, progressive stance, one that’s more nuanced and one that at times might sort of alienate some of his constituencies, quite frankly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, how does he describe the politics around this particular issue in this moment? This seems to be one of those thornier ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, we talked a couple of days ago, right after he had actually talked to the head of the United Nations agency that assist Palestinian refugees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s one of the most morally complex issues I’ve had to deal with in my seven years in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, he described the October 7th attack by Hamas against Israeli citizens as brutal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>And hostages were take it said, what had to be some response to that, to hold that Israel perpetrated that act of terror accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And I think that, you know, he was very clear in his feeling that while Israel has a right to, you know, defend itself, you cannot rationalize 500 civilian casualties in order to get to one Hamas fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>It’s just heartbreaking to watch that devastation. I’m fighting in Gaza, 1.5 million people displaced. Today I hosted a member’s briefing with the commissioner general open where he said 60 squirrels had been hit with bombs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I do think that he, you know, is starting this needle and is definitely, on a personal level, very empathetic and and sort of watching very closely what is happening in Gaza to civilians there. You know, I think pretty strong language from a member of Congress. That.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>They shouldn’t be bombing on their schools. They shouldn’t be bombing mosques, churches, hospitals. And if they married Hamas terrorists, they’re off with 500 civilians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Strong language. But that being said, what has his official position been on this issue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He opposes a cease fire like most members of Congress. He says that he cannot make that argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>That’s the biggest trauma for the state of Israel since its founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, he says that Israel needs to be responding in a way that does protect civilian life. But he has pretty much rejected flatly outright calls for an actual cease fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>I mean, the United States may have agreed to a cease fire after 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So what we’re hearing from folks who are protesting is that they want a cease fire now. They want an end to the shelling, the fighting. They want Israel to essentially withdraw and engage in diplomatic talks. The argument, obviously, from folks who want a cease fire is that you have more than 11,000 civilians who have been collateral damage in this horrific assault and that that is sort of the only option for actually saving lives. On the other side, you have a lot of politicians like Ro Khanna saying, no, that’s not reasonable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>They’re starting to understand that. Just psychologically, Pat And I told her, Sam said I spoke with them. It is just very. You can’t take any action against this terrorism that just happened to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is that? Marisa, like, how does someone like Ro Khanna, who is seeing what’s happening in Gaza and is pretty horrified by it, then how does he come to that sort of political calculation? Like what are all the things that he’s weighing here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, I think he’s thinking about. Both his sort of personal beliefs around this. I think he’s thinking about what a cease fire means. Obviously thinking about, you know, what’s happening in Gaza, but also from the perspective of the Israeli government and the citizens there. And, you know, how horrifying what happened on October 7th was. And so I think that he is thinking about this, you know, in the context of like how we might respond to a terror attack at home here in the U.S..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I imagine he’s also thinking about his constituents and the needs of his particular district. How does he talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I think he’s definitely. Listening both to constituents who are calling and writing and protesting in the streets. I think to be clear, it’s not to say that for someone like him, he’s only hearing from constituents calling for a cease fire. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>And certainly a constituent feedback has an impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He also, as we mentioned, represents Silicon Valley. I think that there are business, tech, military interests that align here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>There’s obviously play a role that the army military ties with Israel and it certainly has ties to Silicon Valley. Intel in my district is the largest private sector employer in Israel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He sits on committees. He’s getting briefings that we’re not privy to likely like, those are the things that I think a lot of members of Congress are talking about that goes into this. It’s not just what is my sort of emotional reaction to what’s happening in Gaza. It’s the broader diplomatic, political, economic and military picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, zooming out here, how does Roxana’s stance on this issue, which is to oppose a ceasefire, how does that square with the rest of the Bay Area’s congressional delegation? Are most Bay Area representatives pretty much on the same page on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We’ve actually seen a number of joint statements from folks like Nancy Pelosi, zoe lofgren, from the peninsula, Anna Eshoo, who also represents, you know, parts of San Jose, Silicon Valley. Many of them have made comments similar to Khanna’s, talking about the need to protect civilian life. They all have called for some sort of humanitarian pause or pauses in order to allow civilians to escape Gaza. But they almost entirely and in unity, have spoken very powerfully and strongly in support for Israel and, you know, its ability to defend itself. In some cases, it’s sort of obligation to defend itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And I was sort of surprised. I mean, we do live in one of the most progressive regions in the United States. We have, compared to many parts of the country, a much larger both Jewish and Arab Muslim populations. And so this is definitely something that people here care about and are thinking about. We’ve seen protests there. There’s one going on as we tape this Thursday morning blocking the entire Bay Bridge. But there is not a lot of daylight between what our representatives are saying or our senators, for that matter, and the position, the official position of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, why most Bay area congressmembers oppose a ceasefire in Gaza. All except for one. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, can you maybe tick through some of the notable folks and the range of their stances on this, Marisa? And especially like the folks who are opposed to a cease fire. Why? Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, Nancy Pelosi called a cease fire a gift to Hamas. Other than Joe Biden, I feel like she has spoken most personally about this issue. They’re both Catholic. They’ve spent time in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi: \u003c/strong>Mike Pappas was their head of interfaith council. And he said that that Christians, Catholics, everyone, every religion was mourning for the Israelis and sending their support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She was on stage with us in October here at KQED and has been just absolute in her support for Israel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’m not a big fan of the current government of of Israel. And all that you say is a concern. But none of it none of it makes any difference when when military force comes in and starts killing civilians and kidnaping and the rest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Other members of Congress are maybe sort of less personally attached to this or just don’t have the kind of history that somebody like Nancy Pelosi does. Kevin Mullane, for example, on the peninsula, a relatively new member of Congress, he has also supported Israel defending itself. He has called for Unitarian pause. These members, whatever they’re doing, and they are steadfast in their support for the Israeli position at this point, or at least Israel’s, you know, ability to defend itself are definitely getting their own sort of incoming from their constituents. And I think, yeah, I think it’s a tough one. I think it’s a tough one for all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay. So for the most part, California’s congressional delegation is pretty lockstep on this, as you say. But there is one huge exception, and that’s Representative Barbara Lee, who represents parts of the East Bay, including Oakland. And she’s kind of a lone wolf in terms of her position on the conflict compared to the rest of the California delegation. Right. Tell me about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is the one member of our delegation from the Bay Area who has called for a cease fire and actually co-sponsored a resolution in Congress calling for that. You know, this fits with not just her district, but Barbara Lee is sort of historic positioning when it comes to conflict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Lee: \u003c/strong>Mr. Speaker, members, I rise today really with a very heavy heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is probably best known as the only member of Congress who voted against military authorized resolution right after 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Lee: \u003c/strong>September 11th changed the world. Our deepest fears now haunt us. Yet I am convinced that military action will not prevent further acts of international terrorism against the United States. This is a very complex…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, she explicitly said that what happened was horrific, but she did not believe that our action was going to make it less likely that somebody would attack us again. You could sort of superimpose that argument on to what is happening now that folks who support a cease fire believe that what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza is actually sort of making the situation more dynamic, more likely to cause harm to civilians, and that she just does not, you know, see that as the right call from a military diplomatic perspective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s so interesting to sort of get a sense of all the different ways our representatives are sort of weighing their decisions and how they’re making them and how they’re navigating it. But one thing I find really interesting is that there are so many things, Marissa, that I feel like divide Democrats and Republicans, but this issue doesn’t seem to divide them all that much at all. But the divide that I feel like I am seeing is happening within the Democratic Party specifically. Is that an accurate way to think about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>100%, I mean, when you look at the actual voters, if you look at the public, Democrats are pretty split. So NPR, PBS actually put out a poll just this week. When you just ask about their sympathies in the conflict, it was evenly split between Israel and Palestinian groups. Even more striking is that you have more than half of Democrats saying that Israel’s response so far has been too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>That’s 56%. And Democrats, meanwhile, around 52% of Republicans say it’s been about right. I think that in general policy in the U.S. since essentially Israel’s founding, has been in support of Israel. I mean, since essentially 1948, we have seen in general a pretty strong sort of American policy towards not just supporting Israel from a diplomatic perspective, but giving it money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>When I was in Washington and long before that, that Israel pretty much enjoyed bipartisan support for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I talked to Janine Zacharia. She’s a Stanford lecturer. She is a former Washington Post Jerusalem bureau chief. And she talked about the fact that there is a real sea change, particularly among Democrats, when we talk about this issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>And she didn’t have anybody so forcefully or really at all saying that this was a kind of a legitimate resistance the way that you had after the October 7th massacres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Young people, people who are not white people who are under the age of 45 are far more likely to say that Israel’s response has been too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>On the Democratic side, there has become a splintering on this issue. That feels new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what is this all going to mean moving forward, Marissa, that we are seeing some of these fissures and these splits among Democrats on this issue, especially with the election?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, I don’t see that this issue is going to threaten any individual member of Congress in the Bay Area. Like everything in politics, these folks are going to be defending their record on a wide variety of issues from the economy, how they’re dealing with issues here at home, homelessness and affordability, all those things. In general, people are not one issue voters for, you know, that type of office. That’s not to say nobody will take this into account and choose to change their vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>But I haven’t seen any like, you know, real, you know, challenging from sort of well-funded, serious candidates to any of these people. I think for Joe Biden, it’s an open question. And I think this gets back to sort of this question of like, does it all matter? Does the protests matter? Does the calling of your representative matter? We have seen the language of even President Biden shift significantly over recent weeks as Israel’s response has gotten more intense and has caused so many civilian casualties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Biden: \u003c/strong>You have a circumstance where the first war crimes being committed by Hamas, by having their headquarters, their military hidden under a hospital. And that’s a fact. That’s what’s happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Just Wednesday night in the Bay Area. The president defended Israel’s assault on a hospital in Gaza. But he’s also talking very forcefully about, in the long run, a two state solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Biden: \u003c/strong>But I can tell you, I don’t think it all ends until there’s a two state solution. I made it clear to the Israelis, I think it’s a big mistake for them to think they’re going to occupy Gaza and maintain Gaza. I don’t think that works. And so I think you’re going to see first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Everyone I talked to from, you know, the congressmen to these experts at Stanford said that is in part because of what the public is saying and doing. Right. Like, I don’t think they’re going to change the American position towards Israel overnight. But I do think that if you are in elected office, you are looking around and seeing where the public is. And you’re going to, if not switch your position immediately, at least be taking that into account as things moves forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marissa, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Marisa Lagos, a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast. By the way, KQED has got a whole guide on how to call your representative. You can find it at kqed.org/explainers. This 35 minute conversation with Marisa was cut down, edited and produced by Maria Esquinca. I pitched this episode, scored it, and added all the tape. Guy Marzorati was our editor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The rest of our podcast team at KQED includes Jen Chien, art director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, our podcast Engagement Intern. And Holly Kernan, our Chief Content Officer. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thank you so much for listening this week. Hope you all have a restful weekend. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"datePublished": "2023-11-17T03:00:25-08:00",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With thousands of people taking to the streets on either side of the issue of Israel’s siege of Gaza, how are the Bay Area’s representatives in Congress weighing their position on the issue?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4669437820\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://kqed.applytojob.com/apply/g81IJAEpax/Intern-The-Bay-Podcast\">Apply to be our intern!\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Ericka and it’s deadline day. If you want to be our intern here at the bay and help us make this show, you better get your application in. It’s 16 hours a week. Yes, it is paid. And you get to work with me. So get that app in. Check out the link in our show notes for that. All right. Here’s the show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to the bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Hamas’s attack on Israel and Israel’s siege of Gaza in response has drawn thousands of people to the streets in protest. You’ll hear demands for a ceasefire and calls to bring home the Israeli hostages. You’ll also hear cries to call your reps. So amidst the protests and public outrage, how exactly are our Bay Area representatives weighing their stance in Congress?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>It’s not just what is my sort of emotional reaction to what’s happening in Gaza. It’s the broader diplomatic, political, economic and military picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today I talk with KQED political correspondent Marisa Lagos about where the Bay Area’s representatives in Congress stand on the situation in Gaza. So, Marisa, we sent you on a little journey to see where the Bay Area’s elected leaders and our congressional delegation stands on Israel and Palestine and what’s happening in Gaza. And one person that you wanted to talk to to sort of get inside the minds of these electeds was Congressman Ro Khanna. Remind us who he is and why did you want to talk to him?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, one, because he’s willing to talk honestly. He is one of our most accessible public officials in the Bay Area. And it’s not just that he’ll jump on the phone with you. It’s that he’s unusually sort of willing to be open about his thought processes and like answer tough questions, I would say. When he started his career, he was very much aligned with the sort of Bernie Sanders wing of the party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>But over the years in Congress, we’ve seen him become a pragmatic progressive. There’s thoughts that he might want to run for president one day. He represents Silicon Valley, and I think he often is taking a little bit of a less sort of reflexive, progressive stance, one that’s more nuanced and one that at times might sort of alienate some of his constituencies, quite frankly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, how does he describe the politics around this particular issue in this moment? This seems to be one of those thornier ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, we talked a couple of days ago, right after he had actually talked to the head of the United Nations agency that assist Palestinian refugees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s one of the most morally complex issues I’ve had to deal with in my seven years in Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, he described the October 7th attack by Hamas against Israeli citizens as brutal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>And hostages were take it said, what had to be some response to that, to hold that Israel perpetrated that act of terror accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And I think that, you know, he was very clear in his feeling that while Israel has a right to, you know, defend itself, you cannot rationalize 500 civilian casualties in order to get to one Hamas fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>It’s just heartbreaking to watch that devastation. I’m fighting in Gaza, 1.5 million people displaced. Today I hosted a member’s briefing with the commissioner general open where he said 60 squirrels had been hit with bombs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So I do think that he, you know, is starting this needle and is definitely, on a personal level, very empathetic and and sort of watching very closely what is happening in Gaza to civilians there. You know, I think pretty strong language from a member of Congress. That.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>They shouldn’t be bombing on their schools. They shouldn’t be bombing mosques, churches, hospitals. And if they married Hamas terrorists, they’re off with 500 civilians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Strong language. But that being said, what has his official position been on this issue?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He opposes a cease fire like most members of Congress. He says that he cannot make that argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>That’s the biggest trauma for the state of Israel since its founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, he says that Israel needs to be responding in a way that does protect civilian life. But he has pretty much rejected flatly outright calls for an actual cease fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>I mean, the United States may have agreed to a cease fire after 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>So what we’re hearing from folks who are protesting is that they want a cease fire now. They want an end to the shelling, the fighting. They want Israel to essentially withdraw and engage in diplomatic talks. The argument, obviously, from folks who want a cease fire is that you have more than 11,000 civilians who have been collateral damage in this horrific assault and that that is sort of the only option for actually saving lives. On the other side, you have a lot of politicians like Ro Khanna saying, no, that’s not reasonable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>They’re starting to understand that. Just psychologically, Pat And I told her, Sam said I spoke with them. It is just very. You can’t take any action against this terrorism that just happened to you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Why is that? Marisa, like, how does someone like Ro Khanna, who is seeing what’s happening in Gaza and is pretty horrified by it, then how does he come to that sort of political calculation? Like what are all the things that he’s weighing here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Well, I think he’s thinking about. Both his sort of personal beliefs around this. I think he’s thinking about what a cease fire means. Obviously thinking about, you know, what’s happening in Gaza, but also from the perspective of the Israeli government and the citizens there. And, you know, how horrifying what happened on October 7th was. And so I think that he is thinking about this, you know, in the context of like how we might respond to a terror attack at home here in the U.S..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I imagine he’s also thinking about his constituents and the needs of his particular district. How does he talk about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I think he’s definitely. Listening both to constituents who are calling and writing and protesting in the streets. I think to be clear, it’s not to say that for someone like him, he’s only hearing from constituents calling for a cease fire. Right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>And certainly a constituent feedback has an impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He also, as we mentioned, represents Silicon Valley. I think that there are business, tech, military interests that align here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ro Khanna: \u003c/strong>There’s obviously play a role that the army military ties with Israel and it certainly has ties to Silicon Valley. Intel in my district is the largest private sector employer in Israel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>He sits on committees. He’s getting briefings that we’re not privy to likely like, those are the things that I think a lot of members of Congress are talking about that goes into this. It’s not just what is my sort of emotional reaction to what’s happening in Gaza. It’s the broader diplomatic, political, economic and military picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, zooming out here, how does Roxana’s stance on this issue, which is to oppose a ceasefire, how does that square with the rest of the Bay Area’s congressional delegation? Are most Bay Area representatives pretty much on the same page on this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>We’ve actually seen a number of joint statements from folks like Nancy Pelosi, zoe lofgren, from the peninsula, Anna Eshoo, who also represents, you know, parts of San Jose, Silicon Valley. Many of them have made comments similar to Khanna’s, talking about the need to protect civilian life. They all have called for some sort of humanitarian pause or pauses in order to allow civilians to escape Gaza. But they almost entirely and in unity, have spoken very powerfully and strongly in support for Israel and, you know, its ability to defend itself. In some cases, it’s sort of obligation to defend itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>And I was sort of surprised. I mean, we do live in one of the most progressive regions in the United States. We have, compared to many parts of the country, a much larger both Jewish and Arab Muslim populations. And so this is definitely something that people here care about and are thinking about. We’ve seen protests there. There’s one going on as we tape this Thursday morning blocking the entire Bay Bridge. But there is not a lot of daylight between what our representatives are saying or our senators, for that matter, and the position, the official position of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Coming up, why most Bay area congressmembers oppose a ceasefire in Gaza. All except for one. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, can you maybe tick through some of the notable folks and the range of their stances on this, Marisa? And especially like the folks who are opposed to a cease fire. Why? Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I mean, Nancy Pelosi called a cease fire a gift to Hamas. Other than Joe Biden, I feel like she has spoken most personally about this issue. They’re both Catholic. They’ve spent time in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi: \u003c/strong>Mike Pappas was their head of interfaith council. And he said that that Christians, Catholics, everyone, every religion was mourning for the Israelis and sending their support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She was on stage with us in October here at KQED and has been just absolute in her support for Israel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi: \u003c/strong>I mean, I’m not a big fan of the current government of of Israel. And all that you say is a concern. But none of it none of it makes any difference when when military force comes in and starts killing civilians and kidnaping and the rest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Other members of Congress are maybe sort of less personally attached to this or just don’t have the kind of history that somebody like Nancy Pelosi does. Kevin Mullane, for example, on the peninsula, a relatively new member of Congress, he has also supported Israel defending itself. He has called for Unitarian pause. These members, whatever they’re doing, and they are steadfast in their support for the Israeli position at this point, or at least Israel’s, you know, ability to defend itself are definitely getting their own sort of incoming from their constituents. And I think, yeah, I think it’s a tough one. I think it’s a tough one for all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Okay. So for the most part, California’s congressional delegation is pretty lockstep on this, as you say. But there is one huge exception, and that’s Representative Barbara Lee, who represents parts of the East Bay, including Oakland. And she’s kind of a lone wolf in terms of her position on the conflict compared to the rest of the California delegation. Right. Tell me about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is the one member of our delegation from the Bay Area who has called for a cease fire and actually co-sponsored a resolution in Congress calling for that. You know, this fits with not just her district, but Barbara Lee is sort of historic positioning when it comes to conflict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Lee: \u003c/strong>Mr. Speaker, members, I rise today really with a very heavy heart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>She is probably best known as the only member of Congress who voted against military authorized resolution right after 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Lee: \u003c/strong>September 11th changed the world. Our deepest fears now haunt us. Yet I am convinced that military action will not prevent further acts of international terrorism against the United States. This is a very complex…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, she explicitly said that what happened was horrific, but she did not believe that our action was going to make it less likely that somebody would attack us again. You could sort of superimpose that argument on to what is happening now that folks who support a cease fire believe that what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza is actually sort of making the situation more dynamic, more likely to cause harm to civilians, and that she just does not, you know, see that as the right call from a military diplomatic perspective.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s so interesting to sort of get a sense of all the different ways our representatives are sort of weighing their decisions and how they’re making them and how they’re navigating it. But one thing I find really interesting is that there are so many things, Marissa, that I feel like divide Democrats and Republicans, but this issue doesn’t seem to divide them all that much at all. But the divide that I feel like I am seeing is happening within the Democratic Party specifically. Is that an accurate way to think about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>100%, I mean, when you look at the actual voters, if you look at the public, Democrats are pretty split. So NPR, PBS actually put out a poll just this week. When you just ask about their sympathies in the conflict, it was evenly split between Israel and Palestinian groups. Even more striking is that you have more than half of Democrats saying that Israel’s response so far has been too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>That’s 56%. And Democrats, meanwhile, around 52% of Republicans say it’s been about right. I think that in general policy in the U.S. since essentially Israel’s founding, has been in support of Israel. I mean, since essentially 1948, we have seen in general a pretty strong sort of American policy towards not just supporting Israel from a diplomatic perspective, but giving it money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>When I was in Washington and long before that, that Israel pretty much enjoyed bipartisan support for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>I talked to Janine Zacharia. She’s a Stanford lecturer. She is a former Washington Post Jerusalem bureau chief. And she talked about the fact that there is a real sea change, particularly among Democrats, when we talk about this issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>And she didn’t have anybody so forcefully or really at all saying that this was a kind of a legitimate resistance the way that you had after the October 7th massacres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Young people, people who are not white people who are under the age of 45 are far more likely to say that Israel’s response has been too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janine Zacharia: \u003c/strong>On the Democratic side, there has become a splintering on this issue. That feels new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, what is this all going to mean moving forward, Marissa, that we are seeing some of these fissures and these splits among Democrats on this issue, especially with the election?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>You know, I don’t see that this issue is going to threaten any individual member of Congress in the Bay Area. Like everything in politics, these folks are going to be defending their record on a wide variety of issues from the economy, how they’re dealing with issues here at home, homelessness and affordability, all those things. In general, people are not one issue voters for, you know, that type of office. That’s not to say nobody will take this into account and choose to change their vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>But I haven’t seen any like, you know, real, you know, challenging from sort of well-funded, serious candidates to any of these people. I think for Joe Biden, it’s an open question. And I think this gets back to sort of this question of like, does it all matter? Does the protests matter? Does the calling of your representative matter? We have seen the language of even President Biden shift significantly over recent weeks as Israel’s response has gotten more intense and has caused so many civilian casualties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Biden: \u003c/strong>You have a circumstance where the first war crimes being committed by Hamas, by having their headquarters, their military hidden under a hospital. And that’s a fact. That’s what’s happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Just Wednesday night in the Bay Area. The president defended Israel’s assault on a hospital in Gaza. But he’s also talking very forcefully about, in the long run, a two state solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Biden: \u003c/strong>But I can tell you, I don’t think it all ends until there’s a two state solution. I made it clear to the Israelis, I think it’s a big mistake for them to think they’re going to occupy Gaza and maintain Gaza. I don’t think that works. And so I think you’re going to see first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>Everyone I talked to from, you know, the congressmen to these experts at Stanford said that is in part because of what the public is saying and doing. Right. Like, I don’t think they’re going to change the American position towards Israel overnight. But I do think that if you are in elected office, you are looking around and seeing where the public is. And you’re going to, if not switch your position immediately, at least be taking that into account as things moves forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Marissa, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Marisa Lagos, a political correspondent for KQED and co-host of the Political Breakdown podcast. By the way, KQED has got a whole guide on how to call your representative. You can find it at kqed.org/explainers. This 35 minute conversation with Marisa was cut down, edited and produced by Maria Esquinca. I pitched this episode, scored it, and added all the tape. Guy Marzorati was our editor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The rest of our podcast team at KQED includes Jen Chien, art director of podcasts. Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, Cesar Saldana, our podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, our podcast Engagement Intern. And Holly Kernan, our Chief Content Officer. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thank you so much for listening this week. Hope you all have a restful weekend. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "David DePape Found Guilty of Federal Charges in Paul Pelosi Hammer Attack",
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"content": "\u003cp>A jury found David DePape guilty Thursday morning of federal charges involving his attempt to kidnap former U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and his brutal assault on her husband with a hammer last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury’s unanimous verdict was returned after roughly eight hours of deliberations following a whirlwind four-day trial in San Francisco. DePape, 43, was specifically found guilty of attempted kidnapping of a federal official and assaulting a federal official’s family member.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This verdict sends a clear message, regardless of what your beliefs are, what you cannot do is physically attack a member of Congress or their immediate family for the performance of their job,” U.S. Attorney Ismail Ramsey said during a brief press conference Thursday afternoon. Ramsey went on to thank the jury and wish Paul Pelosi a full recovery.[aside label=\"More DePape trial coverage\" tag=\"paul-pelosi\"]“Speaker Pelosi and her family are deeply grateful for the outpouring of prayers and warm wishes for Mr. Pelosi from so many across the country during this difficult time,” a spokesperson for Nancy Pelosi said in a written statement released shortly after the jury read its verdict. “The Pelosi family is very proud of their Pop, who demonstrated extraordinary composure and courage on the night of the attack a year ago and in the courtroom this week.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966865/defense-focuses-on-conspiracy-theories-in-first-day-of-trial-over-attempted-nancy-pelosi-kidnapping\">DePape’s defense\u003c/a> was a mystery leading into the trial, in part because of overwhelming evidence against him, captured on video and audio recordings that had already reached the public. He also admitted his plans to kidnap Nancy Pelosi to a San Francisco police lieutenant shortly after his arrest. He later called a KTVU reporter from jail and apologized for failing in his plans and “not getting more” of his targets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And perhaps most blatantly, video footage shows DePape savagely attacking Nancy Pelosi’s husband, Paul Pelosi, in the head with a hammer at least three times in front of two San Francisco police officers, shortly after the officers arrived at the Pelosi’s San Francisco home in the early morning hours of Oct. 28, 2022. The officers’ body cameras recorded the assault, after which they immediately tackled DePape and arrested him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense strategy, led by Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker, quickly emerged as the trial unfolded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker and her defense team argued that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967427/depapes-motivation-for-trying-to-kidnap-nancy-pelosi-is-key-defense-says-in-closing-argument\">federal charges were inappropriate\u003c/a> because those charges required DePape to have been motivated by Pelosi’s “official duties” in Congress. DePape said on the witness stand that he was instead motivated by extremist conspiracy theories that also led him to target Tom Hanks, Gov. Gavin Newsom, Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff, and gender theory academic Gayle Rubin, among other well-known figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967737\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of two women standing up and consoling a large man who is seated, as a judge and court reporter sit in the background. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967737\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-1020x574.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-160x90.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-1536x864.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Federal public defenders Angela Chuang (left) and Jodi Linker console defendant David DePape (seated) after hearing the jury’s guilty verdict in a San Francisco courtroom on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967180/tremendous-shock-paul-pelosi-testifies-in-trial-of-his-attacker-david-depape\">who testified on Monday\u003c/a>, described the “tremendous shock” of being awoken in his third-floor bedroom by a “very large man with a hammer in one hand and some [zip] ties in the other” who demanded, “Where’s Nancy?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Pelosi told DePape that his wife was in Washington, D.C., and wouldn’t be home for several days, DePape said he would “tie me up and wait for her,” Pelosi testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi told the court about the cryptic 911 call he made while DePape watched. And he described how he convinced DePape to move to the first floor, hoping police would arrive there soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the witness stand on Tuesday, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">DePape revealed never-before-heard details of his plan\u003c/a>, including his intention to wear an inflatable unicorn costume while interrogating Nancy Pelosi on video about “Russiagate,” a conspiracy theory about purported pornographic tapes of President Donald Trump. DePape testified that if she had lied during his planned interrogation, he would have broken her kneecaps and wheeled her before Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape intended to force his various targets to confess their crimes and then “unify” the country by forgiving them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was the grand end of my plan, to get Joe Biden to pardon all the criminals for all their criminal conduct,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sentencing phase of the case will come next, with an initial hearing set for Dec. 13.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape also still faces state charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, elder abuse, residential burglary, false imprisonment and threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official, which collectively could carry a sentence of life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "A federal jury found DePape guilty of attempting to kidnap former U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and assaulting her husband with a hammer last year.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>A jury found David DePape guilty Thursday morning of federal charges involving his attempt to kidnap former U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and his brutal assault on her husband with a hammer last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury’s unanimous verdict was returned after roughly eight hours of deliberations following a whirlwind four-day trial in San Francisco. DePape, 43, was specifically found guilty of attempted kidnapping of a federal official and assaulting a federal official’s family member.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This verdict sends a clear message, regardless of what your beliefs are, what you cannot do is physically attack a member of Congress or their immediate family for the performance of their job,” U.S. Attorney Ismail Ramsey said during a brief press conference Thursday afternoon. Ramsey went on to thank the jury and wish Paul Pelosi a full recovery.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Speaker Pelosi and her family are deeply grateful for the outpouring of prayers and warm wishes for Mr. Pelosi from so many across the country during this difficult time,” a spokesperson for Nancy Pelosi said in a written statement released shortly after the jury read its verdict. “The Pelosi family is very proud of their Pop, who demonstrated extraordinary composure and courage on the night of the attack a year ago and in the courtroom this week.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966865/defense-focuses-on-conspiracy-theories-in-first-day-of-trial-over-attempted-nancy-pelosi-kidnapping\">DePape’s defense\u003c/a> was a mystery leading into the trial, in part because of overwhelming evidence against him, captured on video and audio recordings that had already reached the public. He also admitted his plans to kidnap Nancy Pelosi to a San Francisco police lieutenant shortly after his arrest. He later called a KTVU reporter from jail and apologized for failing in his plans and “not getting more” of his targets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And perhaps most blatantly, video footage shows DePape savagely attacking Nancy Pelosi’s husband, Paul Pelosi, in the head with a hammer at least three times in front of two San Francisco police officers, shortly after the officers arrived at the Pelosi’s San Francisco home in the early morning hours of Oct. 28, 2022. The officers’ body cameras recorded the assault, after which they immediately tackled DePape and arrested him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense strategy, led by Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker, quickly emerged as the trial unfolded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker and her defense team argued that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967427/depapes-motivation-for-trying-to-kidnap-nancy-pelosi-is-key-defense-says-in-closing-argument\">federal charges were inappropriate\u003c/a> because those charges required DePape to have been motivated by Pelosi’s “official duties” in Congress. DePape said on the witness stand that he was instead motivated by extremist conspiracy theories that also led him to target Tom Hanks, Gov. Gavin Newsom, Democratic Rep. Adam Schiff, and gender theory academic Gayle Rubin, among other well-known figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967737\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of two women standing up and consoling a large man who is seated, as a judge and court reporter sit in the background. \" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967737\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console.jpeg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-1020x574.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-160x90.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/console-1536x864.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Federal public defenders Angela Chuang (left) and Jodi Linker console defendant David DePape (seated) after hearing the jury’s guilty verdict in a San Francisco courtroom on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967180/tremendous-shock-paul-pelosi-testifies-in-trial-of-his-attacker-david-depape\">who testified on Monday\u003c/a>, described the “tremendous shock” of being awoken in his third-floor bedroom by a “very large man with a hammer in one hand and some [zip] ties in the other” who demanded, “Where’s Nancy?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Pelosi told DePape that his wife was in Washington, D.C., and wouldn’t be home for several days, DePape said he would “tie me up and wait for her,” Pelosi testified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi told the court about the cryptic 911 call he made while DePape watched. And he described how he convinced DePape to move to the first floor, hoping police would arrive there soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the witness stand on Tuesday, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967247/david-depape-on-witness-stand-details-grand-plan-to-violently-interrogate-nancy-pelosi\">DePape revealed never-before-heard details of his plan\u003c/a>, including his intention to wear an inflatable unicorn costume while interrogating Nancy Pelosi on video about “Russiagate,” a conspiracy theory about purported pornographic tapes of President Donald Trump. DePape testified that if she had lied during his planned interrogation, he would have broken her kneecaps and wheeled her before Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape intended to force his various targets to confess their crimes and then “unify” the country by forgiving them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was the grand end of my plan, to get Joe Biden to pardon all the criminals for all their criminal conduct,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sentencing phase of the case will come next, with an initial hearing set for Dec. 13.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape also still faces state charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, elder abuse, residential burglary, false imprisonment and threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official, which collectively could carry a sentence of life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "DePape's Motivation for Trying to Kidnap Nancy Pelosi Is Key, Defense Says in Closing Argument",
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"content": "\u003cp>Federal prosecutors and defense attorneys made closing arguments Wednesday in the trial of David DePape, the man facing life in prison for attempting to kidnap former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and assaulting her husband, Paul Pelosi, last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury began deliberating late Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-day trial in a San Francisco courtroom focused on DePape’s failed plan to kidnap Nancy Pelosi by breaking into her San Francisco home early in the morning on Oct. 28, 2022. He found the former speaker of the House was not home, which he said was not part of his plan. He held Paul Pelosi hostage until police officers arrived, then bludgeoned him in the head with a hammer in front of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was not a very well-thought-out plan,” DePape’s attorney, Assistant Federal Public Defender Angela Chuang, told the jury in her closing argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense attorneys do not dispute that he hit Paul Pelosi with a hammer or that he planned to capture Nancy Pelosi. Rather, the defense argued that he was motivated by outlandish conspiracy theories, not Pelosi’s official position at the time as House speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a key distinction in considering both federal charges against DePape, which require that the suspect had the “intent to impede, intimidate, or interfere” with a federal official’s duties or “on account of” those duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That strategy echoes ones used by attorneys defending Jan. 6, 2021 insurrectionists earlier this year, including arguments that focused on defendants’ conspiratorial leanings and portrayed them as unaware of the “official duties” of their targets. Those tactics have \u003ca class=\"c-link\" href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">reportedly largely been unsuccessful\u003c/a>, although at least one Jan. 6 defendant \u003ca class=\"c-link\" href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/13/judge-finds-jan-6-defendant-who-breached-senate-chamber-not-guilty-of-obstruction-00077971\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/13/judge-finds-jan-6-defendant-who-breached-senate-chamber-not-guilty-of-obstruction-00077971\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">did face lesser charges\u003c/a> after making such an argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967451\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967451\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of a woman standing at a lectern in a courtroom, speaking to a faceless jury, with a judge observing.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Displaying a photo of Paul Pelosi lying in a pool of his own blood, Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert delivers the prosecution’s closing argument to the jury in the case against David DePape on Wednesday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The ‘why’ matters here,” Chuang said. “This case isn’t about whether they proved beyond a reasonable doubt if Mr. DePape went to the Pelosi’s home that night and hit Mr. Pelosi on the head with a hammer. Of course, he did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout the case — including during DePape’s testimony on Tuesday — the defense attempted to demonstrate that he targeted Nancy Pelosi for her politics, not for her congressional duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But during the prosecution’s closing argument, Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert dismissed that argument as a “made-up distinction.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors spent much of the trial breaking down the savage hammer attack that, in real-time, lasted only moments. Police witnesses, photographs, slow-motion video, and testimony from Paul Pelosi himself highlighted the brazenness of DePape’s entry into the Pelosi home, in which he struck a glass door with his hammer more than a dozen times, and emphasized the shocking way in which he ultimately wielded that hammer to fracture Paul Pelosi’s skull.[aside label=\"More DePape trial coverage\" tag=\"paul-pelosi\"]The images of Paul Pelosi’s injuries were particularly horrific. The front half of his skull appeared flattened in one photo, and in another, his face and hands were bathed in blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Chuang, the federal defender, on Wednesday, urged the jury not to be distracted by those images.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was awful and horrible,” she said, but “the government wants you to be so appalled by what happened that you will be swayed on this case. They want you to be so moved by the blood and the violence, and you won’t think about the charges.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shocking the jurors, however, wasn’t the prosecution’s only strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors also highlighted DePape’s “grand plan,” as he called it, in great detail. The jury saw photographs of the small Richmond garage he called home, summaries of the research he conducted into accessing the Pelosi residence and the homes of other targets in his web history, a catalog of those targets’ addresses on his hard drive, and surveillance footage of his late-night, two-and-a-half hour BART and Muni trips that brought him to the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution highlighted how DePape, in a recorded interview with police after his arrest, infamously called Nancy Pelosi the “leader of the pack” among those telling Democratic lies, and how he kept his research on Pelosi in a folder on his computer labeled “favorite politicians.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert, the U.S. attorney, told jurors that it was telling when DePape admitted to police investigators that his plan involved donning an inflatable unicorn costume, interrogating Nancy Pelosi on video, then breaking her kneecaps and wheeling her out onto the floor of Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He didn’t say he’d wheel her out to the [Democratic National Committee],” she said. “No, he said ‘Congress.’ We didn’t put those words in his mouth. He said that on the day he did this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Jacquline Scott Corley indicated in hearings on Tuesday, while the jury was not present that there are various scenarios in which the federal charges against DePape would not apply. One hypothetical she raised involved someone assaulting a federal official in a fit of road rage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution agreed that the charges against DePape would “absolutely not” be appropriate in that example. But in her closing argument on Wednesday, Gilbert said the charges absolutely apply in this case because of DePape’s own statements about his intent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the center of the ‘evil’ and of the lies and corruption the defendant is talking about,” Gilbert argued. “He tells you: It’s Congress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert relied heavily on DePape’s statements to speak for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was “right in front of cops, too,” DePape said to a paramedic on a recording from the night of the attack that Gilbert played for the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cops watched me do it. You guys need evidence? There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it,” he said on the recording.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless of the outcome in federal court, San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins’ office confirmed that DePape will still face state charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, elder abuse, residential burglary, false imprisonment, and threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official, which collectively could carry a sentence of life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Federal prosecutors and defense attorneys made closing arguments Wednesday in the trial of David DePape, the man facing life in prison for attempting to kidnap former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and assaulting her husband, Paul Pelosi, last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The jury began deliberating late Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The four-day trial in a San Francisco courtroom focused on DePape’s failed plan to kidnap Nancy Pelosi by breaking into her San Francisco home early in the morning on Oct. 28, 2022. He found the former speaker of the House was not home, which he said was not part of his plan. He held Paul Pelosi hostage until police officers arrived, then bludgeoned him in the head with a hammer in front of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was not a very well-thought-out plan,” DePape’s attorney, Assistant Federal Public Defender Angela Chuang, told the jury in her closing argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s defense attorneys do not dispute that he hit Paul Pelosi with a hammer or that he planned to capture Nancy Pelosi. Rather, the defense argued that he was motivated by outlandish conspiracy theories, not Pelosi’s official position at the time as House speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a key distinction in considering both federal charges against DePape, which require that the suspect had the “intent to impede, intimidate, or interfere” with a federal official’s duties or “on account of” those duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That strategy echoes ones used by attorneys defending Jan. 6, 2021 insurrectionists earlier this year, including arguments that focused on defendants’ conspiratorial leanings and portrayed them as unaware of the “official duties” of their targets. Those tactics have \u003ca class=\"c-link\" href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/paul-pelosi-jan-6-riot-00127267\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">reportedly largely been unsuccessful\u003c/a>, although at least one Jan. 6 defendant \u003ca class=\"c-link\" href=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/13/judge-finds-jan-6-defendant-who-breached-senate-chamber-not-guilty-of-obstruction-00077971\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-stringify-link=\"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/13/judge-finds-jan-6-defendant-who-breached-senate-chamber-not-guilty-of-obstruction-00077971\" data-sk=\"tooltip_parent\">did face lesser charges\u003c/a> after making such an argument.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967451\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967451\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of a woman standing at a lectern in a courtroom, speaking to a faceless jury, with a judge observing.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/closing-arguments-2-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Displaying a photo of Paul Pelosi lying in a pool of his own blood, Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert delivers the prosecution’s closing argument to the jury in the case against David DePape on Wednesday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The ‘why’ matters here,” Chuang said. “This case isn’t about whether they proved beyond a reasonable doubt if Mr. DePape went to the Pelosi’s home that night and hit Mr. Pelosi on the head with a hammer. Of course, he did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout the case — including during DePape’s testimony on Tuesday — the defense attempted to demonstrate that he targeted Nancy Pelosi for her politics, not for her congressional duties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But during the prosecution’s closing argument, Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert dismissed that argument as a “made-up distinction.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors spent much of the trial breaking down the savage hammer attack that, in real-time, lasted only moments. Police witnesses, photographs, slow-motion video, and testimony from Paul Pelosi himself highlighted the brazenness of DePape’s entry into the Pelosi home, in which he struck a glass door with his hammer more than a dozen times, and emphasized the shocking way in which he ultimately wielded that hammer to fracture Paul Pelosi’s skull.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The images of Paul Pelosi’s injuries were particularly horrific. The front half of his skull appeared flattened in one photo, and in another, his face and hands were bathed in blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Chuang, the federal defender, on Wednesday, urged the jury not to be distracted by those images.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was awful and horrible,” she said, but “the government wants you to be so appalled by what happened that you will be swayed on this case. They want you to be so moved by the blood and the violence, and you won’t think about the charges.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shocking the jurors, however, wasn’t the prosecution’s only strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors also highlighted DePape’s “grand plan,” as he called it, in great detail. The jury saw photographs of the small Richmond garage he called home, summaries of the research he conducted into accessing the Pelosi residence and the homes of other targets in his web history, a catalog of those targets’ addresses on his hard drive, and surveillance footage of his late-night, two-and-a-half hour BART and Muni trips that brought him to the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution highlighted how DePape, in a recorded interview with police after his arrest, infamously called Nancy Pelosi the “leader of the pack” among those telling Democratic lies, and how he kept his research on Pelosi in a folder on his computer labeled “favorite politicians.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert, the U.S. attorney, told jurors that it was telling when DePape admitted to police investigators that his plan involved donning an inflatable unicorn costume, interrogating Nancy Pelosi on video, then breaking her kneecaps and wheeling her out onto the floor of Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He didn’t say he’d wheel her out to the [Democratic National Committee],” she said. “No, he said ‘Congress.’ We didn’t put those words in his mouth. He said that on the day he did this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Jacquline Scott Corley indicated in hearings on Tuesday, while the jury was not present that there are various scenarios in which the federal charges against DePape would not apply. One hypothetical she raised involved someone assaulting a federal official in a fit of road rage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution agreed that the charges against DePape would “absolutely not” be appropriate in that example. But in her closing argument on Wednesday, Gilbert said the charges absolutely apply in this case because of DePape’s own statements about his intent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the center of the ‘evil’ and of the lies and corruption the defendant is talking about,” Gilbert argued. “He tells you: It’s Congress.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert relied heavily on DePape’s statements to speak for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was “right in front of cops, too,” DePape said to a paramedic on a recording from the night of the attack that Gilbert played for the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cops watched me do it. You guys need evidence? There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it,” he said on the recording.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless of the outcome in federal court, San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins’ office confirmed that DePape will still face state charges of attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon, elder abuse, residential burglary, false imprisonment, and threatening the life or serious bodily harm to a public official, which collectively could carry a sentence of life in prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Just over a year ago, David DePape of Richmond broke into the San Francisco home of then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi with plans to don an inflatable unicorn costume, interrogate her in her own home on camera about a right-wing conspiracy concerning President Donald Trump called “Russiagate,” then break her kneecaps, and have her wheeled into Congress to expose what he called “lies” told by the “ruling class,” a “cabal” of politicians, academics, celebrities and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That is the “grand plan” DePape, 43, revealed to a jury on the third day of the federal trial against him in San Francisco on Tuesday morning, over the course of more than an hour’s worth of questioning from his federal public defenders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"David DePape\"]‘That was the grand end of my plan, to get Joe Biden to pardon all the criminals for all their criminal conduct.’[/pullquote]DePape, accused of bludgeoning Paul Pelosi and attempting to kidnap Nancy Pelosi, faces life in prison for charges of attempting to kidnap a federal officer and assaulting a family member of a federal official. He has pleaded not guilty. Court proceedings began on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape occasionally broke into tears, blew his nose and held the bridge of his nose as if in pain during various parts of his testimony, including recalling when he used to have “strong anti-Trump vibes,” views that changed after he began a steady diet of far-right-wing media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape told jurors on Tuesday that his plan included luring one of his highest targets, a sexuality and gender academic named Gayle Rubin, known to the court as “Target 1,” to Pelosi’s home using the speaker’s celebrity as a draw, then continuing on to target Gov. Gavin Newsom and several public figures, and ultimately President Joe Biden’s son Hunter Biden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The grand plan was to expose everything at the end with Hunter Biden,” DePape told jurors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once DePape exposed what he considered the “truth,” he planned to ask President Biden to pardon all the people he considered criminals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was the grand end of my plan, to get Joe Biden to pardon all the criminals for all their criminal conduct,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said exposing the “truth” and then pardoning those responsible for various crimes – from what he called Democratic party lies to converting schools into molestation “factories” – would ultimately unify the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the so-called criminals on his target list included actor Tom Hanks, Hunter Biden, Rep. Adam Schiff, former Vice President Mike Pence, former U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and billionaire George Soros, among others. Some of the names of his targets were revealed for the first time in court Tuesday, including Barr and Sanders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Depape accused one of his targets, Rubin, of trying to create “pedophiliac molestation factories” out of schools across the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rubin, a University of Michigan anthropology and women’s studies professor, has been the target of conspiracy theories from extremist YouTubers, writers and podcasters for her groundbreaking academic work as an anthropologist writing about feminist and queer theory. Rubin also testified in court Tuesday under the pseudonym “Target 1,” and said her workplace took measures to ensure her safety after she learned from the FBI that DePape had intended to lure her to the Pelosi home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape had a slip of paper in his pocket with Rubin’s address and phone number on it when he arrived at the Pelosi home last year. DePape’s attorneys handed Rubin that slip of paper in court, and Rubin confirmed it was her address and an older phone number that DePape had intended to call after kidnapping Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Actually, DePape said, “I was thinking of going to her house first. The reason was proximity. She was closest to BART,” he said of Rubin’s home. Ultimately though, her home seemed too well fortified, he said, and he settled on visiting Pelosi first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s fascination with Rubin sprang from podcaster James Lindsay, DePape said, referring to the right-wing media personality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“James Lindsay reads her papers, and what I got is she’s trying to turn our schools into molestation factories,” DePape said, repeating unfounded and baseless accusations that have long been shown to be rooted in bigotry against the LGTBQ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he listened to Lindsay’s podcasts about Rubin, DePape said “I was outraged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And DePape’s radicalization wasn’t limited to Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967330\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11967330 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of an older woman with short grey hair on the witness stand next to a judge, with another woman, with curly hair, facing her.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-2048x1152.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1920x1080.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gayle Rubin, a University of Michigan anthropology and women’s studies professor (center), known to the court as ‘Target 1,’ testifies on the witness stand, answering questions from Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker (right), one of David DePape’s attorneys, in a San Francisco courtroom on Tuesday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He told the jury he came across most of his newfound political ideas after listening to mostly right-wing political YouTubers for entire weekends at a time and a minimum of six hours per day on weekdays, including Lindsay, Jimmy Dore and Glenn Beck. He would listen to the YouTubers’ political screeds while playing muted video games for hours on end in the Richmond garage he lived in, which had no toilet, shower or bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those podcasts introduced him to the unfounded ideas that Tom Hanks had raped a young girl, and that Rep. Adam Schiff was somehow linked to child traffickers. More traditional right-wing attacks on Democrats would mix in with his more extreme conspiracy theories, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I fucking love Hunter Biden. He’s like so blatantly corrupt. He doesn’t even try to hide his nepotism,” DePape said on the witness stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was video games that first led DePape down that rabbit hole of far-right-wing personalities who he said expose the truth to help him see “both sides of the story” in current events, and that eventually led him to believe wide-ranging conspiracy theories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he had been looking up video game tips on YouTube when he first encountered information about “gamergate,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.snopes.com/articles/402899/what-was-gamergate/\">a nearly decade-old social media harassment campaign\u003c/a> led by misogynistic male gamers who targeted and threatened violence against women in the video game industry. He then began intensely researching their many spurious claims about feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, which led him to discover additional targets, DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"More DePape Trial Coverage\" tag=\"paul-pelosi\"]“I’d look up a [strategy to defeat a video game] boss, and it’d be a total different person, and these people would talk about how toxic Anita Sarkeesian is, over and over and over,” DePape said. “I wanted to find out what was going on here. I wanted to get both sides of the story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That, DePape said, led his research “deeper and deeper and deeper.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s those same YouTubers, podcasters and others, DePape said, whose ideas slowly brought him from his more left-wing ideals to Pelosi’s home in the early morning of Oct. 28, 2022. Perhaps reflecting the roots of his conspiracy theories, he had a gray Nintendo Switch in his backpack that night, alongside the zip ties and rope he took with him to restrain Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before DePape’s testimony Tuesday morning, a neurosurgeon, Dr. Michael Huang, testified for the prosecution. He described in gory detail how parts of Paul Pelosi’s skull were shifted by the impact of DePape’s at least three hammer blows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One photo displayed in court showed Paul Pelosi’s head from the side, with what appeared to be a large portion of the front of his skull flattened from his injuries and a roughly 4-inch laceration going across the back-right part of his skull, which was shaved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he hadn’t gone to the Pelosi home that night intending to hurt Paul Pelosi, just his wife. But he said he was willing to “go through” the then-82-year-old because the old man was stopping him from prevailing in his plan against “evil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hearing the medical report about Paul Pelosi’s injuries was “really chilling,” DePape said from the stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After he assaulted Pelosi and saw him lying on the ground breathing heavily, “I felt really scared for his life,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Closing arguments are expected to take place Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story has been updated.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>DePape, accused of bludgeoning Paul Pelosi and attempting to kidnap Nancy Pelosi, faces life in prison for charges of attempting to kidnap a federal officer and assaulting a family member of a federal official. He has pleaded not guilty. Court proceedings began on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape occasionally broke into tears, blew his nose and held the bridge of his nose as if in pain during various parts of his testimony, including recalling when he used to have “strong anti-Trump vibes,” views that changed after he began a steady diet of far-right-wing media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape told jurors on Tuesday that his plan included luring one of his highest targets, a sexuality and gender academic named Gayle Rubin, known to the court as “Target 1,” to Pelosi’s home using the speaker’s celebrity as a draw, then continuing on to target Gov. Gavin Newsom and several public figures, and ultimately President Joe Biden’s son Hunter Biden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The grand plan was to expose everything at the end with Hunter Biden,” DePape told jurors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once DePape exposed what he considered the “truth,” he planned to ask President Biden to pardon all the people he considered criminals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was the grand end of my plan, to get Joe Biden to pardon all the criminals for all their criminal conduct,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said exposing the “truth” and then pardoning those responsible for various crimes – from what he called Democratic party lies to converting schools into molestation “factories” – would ultimately unify the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said the so-called criminals on his target list included actor Tom Hanks, Hunter Biden, Rep. Adam Schiff, former Vice President Mike Pence, former U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr, Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and billionaire George Soros, among others. Some of the names of his targets were revealed for the first time in court Tuesday, including Barr and Sanders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the stand, Depape accused one of his targets, Rubin, of trying to create “pedophiliac molestation factories” out of schools across the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rubin, a University of Michigan anthropology and women’s studies professor, has been the target of conspiracy theories from extremist YouTubers, writers and podcasters for her groundbreaking academic work as an anthropologist writing about feminist and queer theory. Rubin also testified in court Tuesday under the pseudonym “Target 1,” and said her workplace took measures to ensure her safety after she learned from the FBI that DePape had intended to lure her to the Pelosi home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape had a slip of paper in his pocket with Rubin’s address and phone number on it when he arrived at the Pelosi home last year. DePape’s attorneys handed Rubin that slip of paper in court, and Rubin confirmed it was her address and an older phone number that DePape had intended to call after kidnapping Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Actually, DePape said, “I was thinking of going to her house first. The reason was proximity. She was closest to BART,” he said of Rubin’s home. Ultimately though, her home seemed too well fortified, he said, and he settled on visiting Pelosi first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s fascination with Rubin sprang from podcaster James Lindsay, DePape said, referring to the right-wing media personality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“James Lindsay reads her papers, and what I got is she’s trying to turn our schools into molestation factories,” DePape said, repeating unfounded and baseless accusations that have long been shown to be rooted in bigotry against the LGTBQ community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he listened to Lindsay’s podcasts about Rubin, DePape said “I was outraged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And DePape’s radicalization wasn’t limited to Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967330\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11967330 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch of an older woman with short grey hair on the witness stand next to a judge, with another woman, with curly hair, facing her.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-2048x1152.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/Target1-1920x1080.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gayle Rubin, a University of Michigan anthropology and women’s studies professor (center), known to the court as ‘Target 1,’ testifies on the witness stand, answering questions from Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker (right), one of David DePape’s attorneys, in a San Francisco courtroom on Tuesday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He told the jury he came across most of his newfound political ideas after listening to mostly right-wing political YouTubers for entire weekends at a time and a minimum of six hours per day on weekdays, including Lindsay, Jimmy Dore and Glenn Beck. He would listen to the YouTubers’ political screeds while playing muted video games for hours on end in the Richmond garage he lived in, which had no toilet, shower or bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those podcasts introduced him to the unfounded ideas that Tom Hanks had raped a young girl, and that Rep. Adam Schiff was somehow linked to child traffickers. More traditional right-wing attacks on Democrats would mix in with his more extreme conspiracy theories, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I fucking love Hunter Biden. He’s like so blatantly corrupt. He doesn’t even try to hide his nepotism,” DePape said on the witness stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was video games that first led DePape down that rabbit hole of far-right-wing personalities who he said expose the truth to help him see “both sides of the story” in current events, and that eventually led him to believe wide-ranging conspiracy theories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he had been looking up video game tips on YouTube when he first encountered information about “gamergate,” \u003ca href=\"https://www.snopes.com/articles/402899/what-was-gamergate/\">a nearly decade-old social media harassment campaign\u003c/a> led by misogynistic male gamers who targeted and threatened violence against women in the video game industry. He then began intensely researching their many spurious claims about feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, which led him to discover additional targets, DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I’d look up a [strategy to defeat a video game] boss, and it’d be a total different person, and these people would talk about how toxic Anita Sarkeesian is, over and over and over,” DePape said. “I wanted to find out what was going on here. I wanted to get both sides of the story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That, DePape said, led his research “deeper and deeper and deeper.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s those same YouTubers, podcasters and others, DePape said, whose ideas slowly brought him from his more left-wing ideals to Pelosi’s home in the early morning of Oct. 28, 2022. Perhaps reflecting the roots of his conspiracy theories, he had a gray Nintendo Switch in his backpack that night, alongside the zip ties and rope he took with him to restrain Nancy Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before DePape’s testimony Tuesday morning, a neurosurgeon, Dr. Michael Huang, testified for the prosecution. He described in gory detail how parts of Paul Pelosi’s skull were shifted by the impact of DePape’s at least three hammer blows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One photo displayed in court showed Paul Pelosi’s head from the side, with what appeared to be a large portion of the front of his skull flattened from his injuries and a roughly 4-inch laceration going across the back-right part of his skull, which was shaved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he hadn’t gone to the Pelosi home that night intending to hurt Paul Pelosi, just his wife. But he said he was willing to “go through” the then-82-year-old because the old man was stopping him from prevailing in his plan against “evil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hearing the medical report about Paul Pelosi’s injuries was “really chilling,” DePape said from the stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After he assaulted Pelosi and saw him lying on the ground breathing heavily, “I felt really scared for his life,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Closing arguments are expected to take place Wednesday morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story has been updated.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 5:30 p.m. Thursday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>David DePape, the man accused of attacking Paul Pelosi, allegedly paid for a subscription service to find details about public figures he intended to target and saved personal information about former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — who he variously referred to as evil, a liar and “the leader of the pack” — in a folder labeled “favorite politicians.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That ominous electronic trail is among the steps DePape took in the week before he rode BART from the East Bay, boarded a San Francisco Muni bus, and arrived at the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights home in the early hours of Oct. 28, 2022, federal prosecutor Laura Vartain Horn told the jury in her opening statement Thursday in a San Francisco courtroom.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Jodi Linker, federal public defender\"]‘This is not a whodunnit. But what the government fails to acknowledge is the why-dunnit. And the why matters. The why is what makes this a federal case.’[/pullquote]DePape, she said, would go on to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939421/sf-court-releases-911-call-and-sfpd-body-cam-recordings-of-paul-pelosi-attack\">break into the home\u003c/a> and, when he discovered Nancy Pelosi wasn’t there, hold her 82-year-old husband, Paul Pelosi, hostage before striking him in the head with a hammer in front of two San Francisco police officers, who captured the attack on video.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you stop me from going after people, you will take the punishment instead,” was one of the threats DePape made to Paul Pelosi, Horn told the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The defendant unleashed his plan of violence on the next closest thing to the speaker, her husband, Paul,” Horn said as she displayed photos of Paul Pelosi lying in a pool of his own blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution’s case, Horn said, would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that DePape intended to retaliate against Nancy Pelosi “because of her job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Conspiracy theory as defense\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But DePape, who faces life in prison for two felony counts, including attempted kidnapping of a federal officer and assault on the immediate family member of a federal official, does not dispute anything about what happened that night, said Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker, the suspect’s attorney, in her opening statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not a whodunnit,” Linker told the jury. “But what the government fails to acknowledge is the why-dunnit. And the why matters. The why is what makes this a federal case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11966971\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11966971\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg\" alt=\"a watercolor sketch showing a judge behind a bench and various people seated while a standing person speaks\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker (pointing), David DePape’s attorney, gives her opening statement in a San Francisco courtroom on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The defense strategy has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966378/federal-trial-set-to-start-for-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband-with-a-hammer\">largely been a mystery in the weeks leading up to the start of the trial\u003c/a>. That strategy, Linker’s initial arguments suggest, is to convince the jury that DePape’s beliefs are “wholly unrelated to Nancy Pelosi’s official duties.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker began her statement by reciting a litany of DePape’s extremist conspiracy theories: accusing actor Tom Hanks of raping a child, nodding to George Soros’ perceived control of mainstream media, calling out Gov. Gavin Newsom for “trampling on all our constitutional rights.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hunter Biden is so blatantly corrupt, there is simply no end to what he will do,” Linker said, listing more of DePape’s baseless theories. “Adam Schiff abuses children.”[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"paul-pelosi\"]It was revealed in court Thursday that Schiff, the U.S. Democratic congressman from Burbank, was among those DePape planned to attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nancy Pelosi is a culture warrior, the face of the Democratic Party,” Linker added to her recitation. “Her army is the Democratic National Committee and her weapon is the mainstream media. … That is tyranny. That is corruption. That is killing the tree of liberty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Members of the jury, many of us do not believe any of that,” Linker concluded. “You may think it’s bogus. You may think they’re harmful lies, lies you think are destroying the country. But the evidence in the trial will show Mr. DePape believes these things. He believes them with every ounce of his being.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape developed these beliefs via a steady diet of video games, “listening to podcast after podcast and watching YouTube video after YouTube video … that fed him lies and prompted him to reveal the truth,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both of the charges against DePape presume he was motivated by Pelosi’s official position, not by the outlandish conspiracy theories that drove his actions, Linker argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pelosi home was only the first stop on DePape’s intended journey, Linker added, and had he not been arrested there, he would have then tried to track down Tom Hanks, Hunter Biden, George Soros, and gender-theory academic Gayle Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rubin, who will likely testify in the trial next week, had until now only been identified in court filings as DePape’s “Target 1” — the person he could get to by first kidnapping Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why? Because of her writings,” Linker said. “Because he believes she is promoting child molestation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker said the jury will hear from Target 1, “and she is going to say this is all completely false, that she believes no such things. But David believes it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You will also note this is not a very well thought out plan,” Linker added, underscoring that DePape didn’t make it very far down his target list.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In DePape’s own words\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Testimony on the first day of the trial, which stretched into the afternoon, included video and audio of DePape explaining his motivations and admitting to his plan to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and then go after more politicians and academics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one point on video captured by a police body camera, DePape even expressed remorse for hitting Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t really want to hurt him, but, you know, this was a suicide mission,” DePape said. “The shit going on in Washington, D.C. — it’s so fucking sick. I’m not just going to stand here and do nothing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added: “There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape also made a separate, recorded statement to police after his arrest, portions of which were played for the jury on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967018\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967018\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch showing one woman in a courtroom standing, questioning another women, sitting, while a man, sitting, watches. \" width=\"2560\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-2048x1152.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1920x1080.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert (right) questions San Francisco Police Lt. Carla Hurley (center), as defendant David DePape looks on during the first day of his trial in San Francisco on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He described the difficulty he had breaking through the sliding glass door of the Pelosi home, which he hit a total of 16 times before shoving his way through just after 2 a.m., according to court records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was not easy. That’s like, special glass,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the recording, DePape also described being surprised, after walking through the otherwise empty house, to find Paul Pelosi asleep in his bedroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he had been uncertain about what to do next after learning from Pelosi that his wife was not home and wouldn’t be for several days, according to his recorded statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape recounted, on the recording, how Paul Pelosi eventually retrieved a cell phone from the bathroom and used it to call 911 and was “pushing me into a corner where I have to do something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have other targets, and I can’t be soft about him,” DePape said. “If I have to go through him, I will.”[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"David DePape, recorded on police body camera\"]‘I didn’t really want to hurt him, but, you know, this was a suicide mission. … There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it.’[/pullquote]As DePape feared, that 911 call resulted in two officers knocking on the door of the Pelosi home a short time later. Body camera footage made public in late January captured the interaction, with Paul Pelosi and DePape standing awkwardly in the doorway, both with a hand on the hammer DePape brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He [Pelosi] thinks that I’ll just surrender,” DePape said on the police recording. “I didn’t come here to surrender.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So basically, I yank it away from him and hit him,” he continued. “I have no idea how many times I hit him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the defense’s cross-examination of police officers on Thursday, it was revealed that after the incident, Paul Pelosi regained consciousness at his home before he was taken to the hospital where he would undergo surgery for a fractured skull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On police body camera video, played in court, Paul Pelosi appeared lucid while initially being treated in his home, and when asked, correctly noted that the year was 2022 and that he was in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He hit me in the head with a hammer,” Pelosi told medical personnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A sympathetic observer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Gypsy Taub, who was in a relationship with DePape for 15 years, attended Thursday’s hearing and later said she was concerned for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before proceedings commenced on Thursday morning, Taub stood in the courtroom handing out cards for a website promulgating a “Paul Pelosi coverup.” For evidence, she argued that the respective time stamps on the surveillance and body camera videos don’t line up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape and Taub also had two children together, both of whom are now adults and were in the courtroom on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taub, who was recently released from prison after being convicted of stalking a minor, said she had spoken to DePape on the phone on Wednesday night and had just found old photos of him that reminded her how much she loved him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel sad for him,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testimony in the case is expected to continue into next week. Potential witnesses remaining for the prosecution include Paul Pelosi himself, as well as the surgeon who operated on him and federal agents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 5:30 p.m. Thursday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>David DePape, the man accused of attacking Paul Pelosi, allegedly paid for a subscription service to find details about public figures he intended to target and saved personal information about former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — who he variously referred to as evil, a liar and “the leader of the pack” — in a folder labeled “favorite politicians.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That ominous electronic trail is among the steps DePape took in the week before he rode BART from the East Bay, boarded a San Francisco Muni bus, and arrived at the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights home in the early hours of Oct. 28, 2022, federal prosecutor Laura Vartain Horn told the jury in her opening statement Thursday in a San Francisco courtroom.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>DePape, she said, would go on to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11939421/sf-court-releases-911-call-and-sfpd-body-cam-recordings-of-paul-pelosi-attack\">break into the home\u003c/a> and, when he discovered Nancy Pelosi wasn’t there, hold her 82-year-old husband, Paul Pelosi, hostage before striking him in the head with a hammer in front of two San Francisco police officers, who captured the attack on video.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you stop me from going after people, you will take the punishment instead,” was one of the threats DePape made to Paul Pelosi, Horn told the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The defendant unleashed his plan of violence on the next closest thing to the speaker, her husband, Paul,” Horn said as she displayed photos of Paul Pelosi lying in a pool of his own blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecution’s case, Horn said, would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that DePape intended to retaliate against Nancy Pelosi “because of her job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Conspiracy theory as defense\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But DePape, who faces life in prison for two felony counts, including attempted kidnapping of a federal officer and assault on the immediate family member of a federal official, does not dispute anything about what happened that night, said Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker, the suspect’s attorney, in her opening statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is not a whodunnit,” Linker told the jury. “But what the government fails to acknowledge is the why-dunnit. And the why matters. The why is what makes this a federal case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11966971\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11966971\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg\" alt=\"a watercolor sketch showing a judge behind a bench and various people seated while a standing person speaks\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/LinkerOpening-1536x864.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Federal Public Defender Jodi Linker (pointing), David DePape’s attorney, gives her opening statement in a San Francisco courtroom on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The defense strategy has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966378/federal-trial-set-to-start-for-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband-with-a-hammer\">largely been a mystery in the weeks leading up to the start of the trial\u003c/a>. That strategy, Linker’s initial arguments suggest, is to convince the jury that DePape’s beliefs are “wholly unrelated to Nancy Pelosi’s official duties.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker began her statement by reciting a litany of DePape’s extremist conspiracy theories: accusing actor Tom Hanks of raping a child, nodding to George Soros’ perceived control of mainstream media, calling out Gov. Gavin Newsom for “trampling on all our constitutional rights.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hunter Biden is so blatantly corrupt, there is simply no end to what he will do,” Linker said, listing more of DePape’s baseless theories. “Adam Schiff abuses children.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>It was revealed in court Thursday that Schiff, the U.S. Democratic congressman from Burbank, was among those DePape planned to attack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nancy Pelosi is a culture warrior, the face of the Democratic Party,” Linker added to her recitation. “Her army is the Democratic National Committee and her weapon is the mainstream media. … That is tyranny. That is corruption. That is killing the tree of liberty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Members of the jury, many of us do not believe any of that,” Linker concluded. “You may think it’s bogus. You may think they’re harmful lies, lies you think are destroying the country. But the evidence in the trial will show Mr. DePape believes these things. He believes them with every ounce of his being.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape developed these beliefs via a steady diet of video games, “listening to podcast after podcast and watching YouTube video after YouTube video … that fed him lies and prompted him to reveal the truth,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both of the charges against DePape presume he was motivated by Pelosi’s official position, not by the outlandish conspiracy theories that drove his actions, Linker argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pelosi home was only the first stop on DePape’s intended journey, Linker added, and had he not been arrested there, he would have then tried to track down Tom Hanks, Hunter Biden, George Soros, and gender-theory academic Gayle Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rubin, who will likely testify in the trial next week, had until now only been identified in court filings as DePape’s “Target 1” — the person he could get to by first kidnapping Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why? Because of her writings,” Linker said. “Because he believes she is promoting child molestation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Linker said the jury will hear from Target 1, “and she is going to say this is all completely false, that she believes no such things. But David believes it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You will also note this is not a very well thought out plan,” Linker added, underscoring that DePape didn’t make it very far down his target list.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In DePape’s own words\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Testimony on the first day of the trial, which stretched into the afternoon, included video and audio of DePape explaining his motivations and admitting to his plan to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and then go after more politicians and academics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one point on video captured by a police body camera, DePape even expressed remorse for hitting Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I didn’t really want to hurt him, but, you know, this was a suicide mission,” DePape said. “The shit going on in Washington, D.C. — it’s so fucking sick. I’m not just going to stand here and do nothing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added: “There’s no denying what I did. The cops watched me do it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape also made a separate, recorded statement to police after his arrest, portions of which were played for the jury on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11967018\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11967018\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A watercolor sketch showing one woman in a courtroom standing, questioning another women, sitting, while a man, sitting, watches. \" width=\"2560\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1536x864.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-2048x1152.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/11/IMG_5218-1920x1080.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Assistant U.S. Attorney Helen Gilbert (right) questions San Francisco Police Lt. Carla Hurley (center), as defendant David DePape looks on during the first day of his trial in San Francisco on Thursday. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He described the difficulty he had breaking through the sliding glass door of the Pelosi home, which he hit a total of 16 times before shoving his way through just after 2 a.m., according to court records.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was not easy. That’s like, special glass,” DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On the recording, DePape also described being surprised, after walking through the otherwise empty house, to find Paul Pelosi asleep in his bedroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape said he had been uncertain about what to do next after learning from Pelosi that his wife was not home and wouldn’t be for several days, according to his recorded statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape recounted, on the recording, how Paul Pelosi eventually retrieved a cell phone from the bathroom and used it to call 911 and was “pushing me into a corner where I have to do something.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have other targets, and I can’t be soft about him,” DePape said. “If I have to go through him, I will.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>As DePape feared, that 911 call resulted in two officers knocking on the door of the Pelosi home a short time later. Body camera footage made public in late January captured the interaction, with Paul Pelosi and DePape standing awkwardly in the doorway, both with a hand on the hammer DePape brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He [Pelosi] thinks that I’ll just surrender,” DePape said on the police recording. “I didn’t come here to surrender.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So basically, I yank it away from him and hit him,” he continued. “I have no idea how many times I hit him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the defense’s cross-examination of police officers on Thursday, it was revealed that after the incident, Paul Pelosi regained consciousness at his home before he was taken to the hospital where he would undergo surgery for a fractured skull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On police body camera video, played in court, Paul Pelosi appeared lucid while initially being treated in his home, and when asked, correctly noted that the year was 2022 and that he was in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He hit me in the head with a hammer,” Pelosi told medical personnel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A sympathetic observer\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Gypsy Taub, who was in a relationship with DePape for 15 years, attended Thursday’s hearing and later said she was concerned for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before proceedings commenced on Thursday morning, Taub stood in the courtroom handing out cards for a website promulgating a “Paul Pelosi coverup.” For evidence, she argued that the respective time stamps on the surveillance and body camera videos don’t line up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape and Taub also had two children together, both of whom are now adults and were in the courtroom on Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taub, who was recently released from prison after being convicted of stalking a minor, said she had spoken to DePape on the phone on Wednesday night and had just found old photos of him that reminded her how much she loved him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel sad for him,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Testimony in the case is expected to continue into next week. Potential witnesses remaining for the prosecution include Paul Pelosi himself, as well as the surgeon who operated on him and federal agents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Federal Trial Set to Start for Man Charged With Assaulting Paul Pelosi. What You Need to Know",
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"headTitle": "Federal Trial Set to Start for Man Charged With Assaulting Paul Pelosi. What You Need to Know | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>American-grown extremism could take center stage at a federal trial in San Francisco starting this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>David DePape, 43, faces charges of attempted kidnapping of a federal official — former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — and assault on the immediate family member of a federal official — her husband, Paul Pelosi. DePape could be sentenced to life in prison if convicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jury selection in the trial starts this week, with opening statements scheduled for Nov. 9.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But arguments during the trial may go beyond the straightforward legal debate of whether DePape is guilty of bludgeoning Paul Pelosi with a hammer in his San Francisco home last year as part of a plot to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and other left-leaning public figures.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Rachel Goldwasser, Southern Poverty Law Center\"]‘I think the biggest fear is that people who are following it with a conspiratorial view become angrier and even more hostile toward Nancy Pelosi, her family and other politicians as well.’[/pullquote]DePape’s alleged act of political violence last year followed a steady drumbeat of villainization against Pelosi in national right-wing media, and there are concerns that the suspect, who appears to have been motivated by his belief in far-right conspiracy theories, could turn the witness stand into a pulpit to evangelize his beliefs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys, who are federal public defenders, have attempted to keep their courtroom strategy a secret. However, according to pretrial motions, they do not intend to argue insanity. There’s even a chance DePape may take the stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The damning evidence against DePape includes surveillance video of him breaking into the Pelosi home and police body-camera video of him attacking Paul Pelosi with a hammer. After his arrest, DePape told officers he intended to kidnap Nancy Pelosi, the first among the several public figures he planned to target. Police found zip ties, a roll of duct tape, rope and gloves in his backpack.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Message of extremism’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But DePape and his legal team may not care about winning a not-guilty verdict, Loyola Law School professor Laurie Levenson told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“His greatest goal may be to spread his message of extremism,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial comes at a potential cost to at least one secret witness, another of DePape’s alleged targets whose safety could be at risk if asked to testify, the witness’s attorney has argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley ruled recently that an unnamed person, referred to in court documents as “Target 1,” could be compelled to testify. Target 1 is identified in a federal indictment as a high priority on DePape’s list of targets — the person whom he allegedly sought to lure by first taking Nancy Pelosi hostage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco Superior Court last year, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/san-francisco-nancy-pelosi-government-and-politics-3a0ec4302ee4f11c612678038997c0d7\">a San Francisco police lieutenant said\u003c/a> DePape’s target list included Gov. Gavin Newsom, Hunter Biden (President Joe Biden’s son), actor Tom Hanks and sex and gender-theory academic Gayle Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Corley also permitted federal prosecutors to use audio of a Jan. 27 phone call DePape made from his jail cell to a local TV news reporter. During the call, DePape apologized for failing in his alleged plans to target government officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tree of liberty needs watering,” he said. “We need men of valor, patriots willing to put their own lives on the line to stand in opposition to tyranny.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That message has a receptive audience in an ever-growing community of conspiracy theorists, said Rachel Goldwasser, an analyst for the Southern Poverty Law Center. DePape’s trial, she said, could galvanize people already sympathetic to QAnon and similar anti-government perspectives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the biggest fear is that people who are following it with a conspiratorial view become angrier and even more hostile toward Nancy Pelosi, her family and other politicians as well,” Goldwasser said. “The threats have gone up quite a lot in the last few years, and it doesn’t look like they’re going to reduce any time soon.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Radicalized in recent years\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>DePape didn’t always traffic in conspiracy theories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His one-time girlfriend, the nudist Gypsy Taub, who recently served time for attempting to abduct a minor, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ex-girlfriend-of-suspect-in-paul-pelosi-attack-17545968.php\">told the San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/a> that DePape “didn’t know anything about politics” when they met in Hawaii in 2000. Only later did a combination of mental illness and drug use cause him to lose grip on reality, she said.[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"paul-pelosi\"]Years later, DePape, a Canadian-born carpenter living in the East Bay city of Richmond, published blog posts trafficking in QAnon conspiracy theories, railing against space aliens, communists, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930523/conspiracy-theories-and-qanon-posts-shed-light-on-suspect-in-assault-at-pelosi-home\">religious minorities and transgender people\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement to police after he was arrested, DePape characterized Nancy Pelosi as the “leader of the pack” telling Democratic Party lies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape is accused of breaking into the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights home in San Francisco at around 2 a.m. on Oct. 28, 2022. The federal indictment recounts key events: He smashed through their glass side door with a hammer, woke Paul Pelosi from bed and told him he was looking for Nancy Pelosi. Paul Pelosi got hold of a cell phone in his bathroom and managed to signal for help by calling 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 2:31 a.m., a pair of police officers arrived, their body cameras recording as they knocked on the door. Paul Pelosi and DePape answered the door, both of them with one hand on a hammer. When an officer ordered DePape to “drop the hammer,” he said, “Um nope,” pulled his hammer back and swung at Pelosi’s head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi underwent surgery to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930397/nancy-pelosis-husband-assaulted-in-san-francisco-break-in\">repair a skull fracture\u003c/a> along with medical treatment for severe injuries to his hand when he tried to block the hammer blow. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11964329/nancy-pelosi-on-israel-and-the-house-speaker-fight\">Nancy Pelosi told KQED\u003c/a> during a live interview last month that her husband is still recovering, and he may be fully healed by the end of this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Judge considers allowing key evidence\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors and defense attorneys have sparred in pretrial motions over what evidence will be shown to the jury, including a January in-custody phone call from DePape to KTVU reporter Amber Lee and photos and video showing a bloodied Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ktvu.com/news/depape-in-bizarre-phone-call-to-ktvu-says-he-should-have-been-more-prepared\">In that call\u003c/a>, DePape said, “I want to apologize to everyone. I messed up. What I did was really bad. I’m so sorry I didn’t get more of them. It’s my own fault. No one else is to blame. I should have come better prepared.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added, “Liberty isn’t dying, it’s being systematically killed,” and that “people killing it have names and addresses, so I got their names and addresses, so I could pay them a little visit and have a heart-to-heart chat about their bad behavior.” He called for “men of valor, patriots willing to put their own lives on the line to stand in opposition to tyranny.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003cbr>\nThe defense argued in a pretrial motion that the call did not touch on Nancy or Paul Pelosi “or prove any of the necessary elements of the offenses charged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They argued that the call would be inflammatory to a jury and unduly sway them through emotion instead of evidence. Corley ultimately ruled that federal prosecutors could present excerpts from the call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford Law professor Robert Weisberg said the phone call is particularly damning for DePape and a gift to prosecutors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Was that gold wrapped as a present to the U.S. government? Was it the government’s birthday? Was it July Fourth?” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys have also sought to limit how much video footage of the hammer attack prosecutors are allowed to show the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assistant U.S. Attorney Laura Vartain Horn told Judge Corley late last month that the video shows Paul Pelosi lying on the floor “in his own blood.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It shows a different angle. You hear Mr. Pelosi’s breathing, which is difficult,” Horn said, and it shows emergency personnel attempting to stop his blood flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal public defender Angela Chuang argued the video is shocking and would wrongly sway the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is prejudicial. There’s no question about that. That’s just the nature of what happened,” Corley said in response. “A picture is worth a thousand words.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Mysterious Target 1 to take witness stand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Corley cleared the courtroom when DePape’s attorneys argued at a hearing late last month that subpoenaing the unnamed witness identified in the federal indictment as Target 1 was crucial to the defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Corley ruled after the closed-door hearing that Target 1 would testify, a ruling that came over the objections of Target 1’s attorney, Ed Swanson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swanson said DePape’s “call to arms” in his phone call to KTVU endangered his client. He said that since she was named as one of DePape’s targets, she was forced to make “fundamental changes” in her family life and professional life to guarantee their safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are people out there who are particularly worrisome to my client and her employer, who have gone to great lengths to do everything possible to make my client safe,” Swanson argued. “This will make my client less safe.”[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Laurie Levenson, Loyola Law School professor\"]‘Cases that look easy, you have to be careful because jurors will have high expectations,” she said. “In high profile cases, unusual things can happen.’[/pullquote]Corley apologized to Swanson and his client but said the worry right now is a “generalized concern” instead of a specific one and erred on the side of honoring DePape’s right to a fair trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We get threats just being a judge in a video game case,” Corley said. “It’s a crazy, terrible world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The court is aiming to keep Target 1’s name under wraps, though those in attendance will be able to see the person’s face. Corley has said Target 1’s testimony is expected to be public. That could change as further hearings on Target 1 are expected this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson, of Loyola Law School, said there may be good reasons to keep Target 1’s identity hidden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It may be that DePape is out of commission, but the court has to worry whether he has followers out there who will take up the mantle, the mission for him,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Legal defense remains a mystery\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys have noted in an October court filing that they’re trying to avoid “prematurely revealing details of defense trial strategy and theory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that strategy remains a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weisberg, from Stanford Law School, said it makes sense that DePape doesn’t plan to argue insanity as a defense as it’s an “incredibly hard” legal bar to clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have to prove that because of your incapacity, you had no ability to even know what you were doing was wrong,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The defense’s witness list is brief: one redacted name who may be Target 1, Pelosi’s chief of staff, Daniel Bernal, Elizabeth Yates, \u003ca href=\"https://humanrightsfirst.org/library/yates-testifies-on-extremist-threat-to-americans-and-democracy/\">an extremism and antisemitism researcher\u003c/a>, federal public defender Catherine Goulet and DePape himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecutors’ witness list, in contrast, is two pages long, sporting 15 names, most of whom are police officers, federal agents and various emergency responders. Paul Pelosi is also named as a potential witness. Nancy Pelosi is not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At an October pretrial hearing, Corley shot down the defense bid to ask jurors for their voting histories, calling the move “invasive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It will reduce faith in our system. I’m just not going to allow it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson, from Loyola Law School, said finding even one juror who finds conspiracy theories plausible could be key for the defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All they frankly need is one sympathizer, one person who says, ‘I don’t like DePape, but his message is one that I relate to,’” Levenson said. “If that happens, then you might not get the unanimous verdict that the prosecution has to get.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson cautioned against assuming the case will be an easy win for prosecutors, even in light of what she called “strong evidence” showing DePape’s attack, demonstrating his motivations and communicating his desire to continue his mission even after his arrest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cases that look easy, you have to be careful because jurors will have high expectations,” she said. “In high profile cases, unusual things can happen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Correction (Nov. 8): An earlier version of this story listed David DePape’s age as 42 years old. That was his age at the time of his arrest last year. He is now 43.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "David DePape is accused of attempting to kidnap former House Speaker Pelosi and, in the process, brutally assaulting her husband, Paul Pelosi. If convicted, he could be sentenced to life in prison.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>American-grown extremism could take center stage at a federal trial in San Francisco starting this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>David DePape, 43, faces charges of attempted kidnapping of a federal official — former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi — and assault on the immediate family member of a federal official — her husband, Paul Pelosi. DePape could be sentenced to life in prison if convicted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jury selection in the trial starts this week, with opening statements scheduled for Nov. 9.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But arguments during the trial may go beyond the straightforward legal debate of whether DePape is guilty of bludgeoning Paul Pelosi with a hammer in his San Francisco home last year as part of a plot to kidnap Nancy Pelosi and other left-leaning public figures.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>DePape’s alleged act of political violence last year followed a steady drumbeat of villainization against Pelosi in national right-wing media, and there are concerns that the suspect, who appears to have been motivated by his belief in far-right conspiracy theories, could turn the witness stand into a pulpit to evangelize his beliefs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys, who are federal public defenders, have attempted to keep their courtroom strategy a secret. However, according to pretrial motions, they do not intend to argue insanity. There’s even a chance DePape may take the stand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The damning evidence against DePape includes surveillance video of him breaking into the Pelosi home and police body-camera video of him attacking Paul Pelosi with a hammer. After his arrest, DePape told officers he intended to kidnap Nancy Pelosi, the first among the several public figures he planned to target. Police found zip ties, a roll of duct tape, rope and gloves in his backpack.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>‘Message of extremism’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But DePape and his legal team may not care about winning a not-guilty verdict, Loyola Law School professor Laurie Levenson told KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“His greatest goal may be to spread his message of extremism,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The trial comes at a potential cost to at least one secret witness, another of DePape’s alleged targets whose safety could be at risk if asked to testify, the witness’s attorney has argued.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. District Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley ruled recently that an unnamed person, referred to in court documents as “Target 1,” could be compelled to testify. Target 1 is identified in a federal indictment as a high priority on DePape’s list of targets — the person whom he allegedly sought to lure by first taking Nancy Pelosi hostage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco Superior Court last year, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/san-francisco-nancy-pelosi-government-and-politics-3a0ec4302ee4f11c612678038997c0d7\">a San Francisco police lieutenant said\u003c/a> DePape’s target list included Gov. Gavin Newsom, Hunter Biden (President Joe Biden’s son), actor Tom Hanks and sex and gender-theory academic Gayle Rubin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Corley also permitted federal prosecutors to use audio of a Jan. 27 phone call DePape made from his jail cell to a local TV news reporter. During the call, DePape apologized for failing in his alleged plans to target government officials.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The tree of liberty needs watering,” he said. “We need men of valor, patriots willing to put their own lives on the line to stand in opposition to tyranny.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That message has a receptive audience in an ever-growing community of conspiracy theorists, said Rachel Goldwasser, an analyst for the Southern Poverty Law Center. DePape’s trial, she said, could galvanize people already sympathetic to QAnon and similar anti-government perspectives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the biggest fear is that people who are following it with a conspiratorial view become angrier and even more hostile toward Nancy Pelosi, her family and other politicians as well,” Goldwasser said. “The threats have gone up quite a lot in the last few years, and it doesn’t look like they’re going to reduce any time soon.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Radicalized in recent years\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>DePape didn’t always traffic in conspiracy theories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His one-time girlfriend, the nudist Gypsy Taub, who recently served time for attempting to abduct a minor, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/ex-girlfriend-of-suspect-in-paul-pelosi-attack-17545968.php\">told the San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/a> that DePape “didn’t know anything about politics” when they met in Hawaii in 2000. Only later did a combination of mental illness and drug use cause him to lose grip on reality, she said.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Years later, DePape, a Canadian-born carpenter living in the East Bay city of Richmond, published blog posts trafficking in QAnon conspiracy theories, railing against space aliens, communists, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930523/conspiracy-theories-and-qanon-posts-shed-light-on-suspect-in-assault-at-pelosi-home\">religious minorities and transgender people\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement to police after he was arrested, DePape characterized Nancy Pelosi as the “leader of the pack” telling Democratic Party lies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape is accused of breaking into the Pelosi’s Pacific Heights home in San Francisco at around 2 a.m. on Oct. 28, 2022. The federal indictment recounts key events: He smashed through their glass side door with a hammer, woke Paul Pelosi from bed and told him he was looking for Nancy Pelosi. Paul Pelosi got hold of a cell phone in his bathroom and managed to signal for help by calling 911.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By 2:31 a.m., a pair of police officers arrived, their body cameras recording as they knocked on the door. Paul Pelosi and DePape answered the door, both of them with one hand on a hammer. When an officer ordered DePape to “drop the hammer,” he said, “Um nope,” pulled his hammer back and swung at Pelosi’s head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Paul Pelosi underwent surgery to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930397/nancy-pelosis-husband-assaulted-in-san-francisco-break-in\">repair a skull fracture\u003c/a> along with medical treatment for severe injuries to his hand when he tried to block the hammer blow. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11964329/nancy-pelosi-on-israel-and-the-house-speaker-fight\">Nancy Pelosi told KQED\u003c/a> during a live interview last month that her husband is still recovering, and he may be fully healed by the end of this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Judge considers allowing key evidence\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors and defense attorneys have sparred in pretrial motions over what evidence will be shown to the jury, including a January in-custody phone call from DePape to KTVU reporter Amber Lee and photos and video showing a bloodied Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ktvu.com/news/depape-in-bizarre-phone-call-to-ktvu-says-he-should-have-been-more-prepared\">In that call\u003c/a>, DePape said, “I want to apologize to everyone. I messed up. What I did was really bad. I’m so sorry I didn’t get more of them. It’s my own fault. No one else is to blame. I should have come better prepared.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He added, “Liberty isn’t dying, it’s being systematically killed,” and that “people killing it have names and addresses, so I got their names and addresses, so I could pay them a little visit and have a heart-to-heart chat about their bad behavior.” He called for “men of valor, patriots willing to put their own lives on the line to stand in opposition to tyranny.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cbr>\nThe defense argued in a pretrial motion that the call did not touch on Nancy or Paul Pelosi “or prove any of the necessary elements of the offenses charged.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They argued that the call would be inflammatory to a jury and unduly sway them through emotion instead of evidence. Corley ultimately ruled that federal prosecutors could present excerpts from the call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Stanford Law professor Robert Weisberg said the phone call is particularly damning for DePape and a gift to prosecutors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Was that gold wrapped as a present to the U.S. government? Was it the government’s birthday? Was it July Fourth?” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys have also sought to limit how much video footage of the hammer attack prosecutors are allowed to show the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Assistant U.S. Attorney Laura Vartain Horn told Judge Corley late last month that the video shows Paul Pelosi lying on the floor “in his own blood.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It shows a different angle. You hear Mr. Pelosi’s breathing, which is difficult,” Horn said, and it shows emergency personnel attempting to stop his blood flow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Federal public defender Angela Chuang argued the video is shocking and would wrongly sway the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is prejudicial. There’s no question about that. That’s just the nature of what happened,” Corley said in response. “A picture is worth a thousand words.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Mysterious Target 1 to take witness stand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Corley cleared the courtroom when DePape’s attorneys argued at a hearing late last month that subpoenaing the unnamed witness identified in the federal indictment as Target 1 was crucial to the defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Corley ruled after the closed-door hearing that Target 1 would testify, a ruling that came over the objections of Target 1’s attorney, Ed Swanson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swanson said DePape’s “call to arms” in his phone call to KTVU endangered his client. He said that since she was named as one of DePape’s targets, she was forced to make “fundamental changes” in her family life and professional life to guarantee their safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are people out there who are particularly worrisome to my client and her employer, who have gone to great lengths to do everything possible to make my client safe,” Swanson argued. “This will make my client less safe.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Corley apologized to Swanson and his client but said the worry right now is a “generalized concern” instead of a specific one and erred on the side of honoring DePape’s right to a fair trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We get threats just being a judge in a video game case,” Corley said. “It’s a crazy, terrible world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The court is aiming to keep Target 1’s name under wraps, though those in attendance will be able to see the person’s face. Corley has said Target 1’s testimony is expected to be public. That could change as further hearings on Target 1 are expected this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson, of Loyola Law School, said there may be good reasons to keep Target 1’s identity hidden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It may be that DePape is out of commission, but the court has to worry whether he has followers out there who will take up the mantle, the mission for him,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Legal defense remains a mystery\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>DePape’s attorneys have noted in an October court filing that they’re trying to avoid “prematurely revealing details of defense trial strategy and theory.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that strategy remains a mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weisberg, from Stanford Law School, said it makes sense that DePape doesn’t plan to argue insanity as a defense as it’s an “incredibly hard” legal bar to clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You have to prove that because of your incapacity, you had no ability to even know what you were doing was wrong,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The defense’s witness list is brief: one redacted name who may be Target 1, Pelosi’s chief of staff, Daniel Bernal, Elizabeth Yates, \u003ca href=\"https://humanrightsfirst.org/library/yates-testifies-on-extremist-threat-to-americans-and-democracy/\">an extremism and antisemitism researcher\u003c/a>, federal public defender Catherine Goulet and DePape himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The prosecutors’ witness list, in contrast, is two pages long, sporting 15 names, most of whom are police officers, federal agents and various emergency responders. Paul Pelosi is also named as a potential witness. Nancy Pelosi is not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At an October pretrial hearing, Corley shot down the defense bid to ask jurors for their voting histories, calling the move “invasive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It will reduce faith in our system. I’m just not going to allow it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson, from Loyola Law School, said finding even one juror who finds conspiracy theories plausible could be key for the defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All they frankly need is one sympathizer, one person who says, ‘I don’t like DePape, but his message is one that I relate to,’” Levenson said. “If that happens, then you might not get the unanimous verdict that the prosecution has to get.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Levenson cautioned against assuming the case will be an easy win for prosecutors, even in light of what she called “strong evidence” showing DePape’s attack, demonstrating his motivations and communicating his desire to continue his mission even after his arrest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Cases that look easy, you have to be careful because jurors will have high expectations,” she said. “In high profile cases, unusual things can happen.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Correction (Nov. 8): An earlier version of this story listed David DePape’s age as 42 years old. That was his age at the time of his arrest last year. He is now 43.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Laphonza Butler's Decision and Nancy Pelosi on Paul Pelosi, San Francisco and the Grateful Dead",
"headTitle": "Laphonza Butler’s Decision and Nancy Pelosi on Paul Pelosi, San Francisco and the Grateful Dead | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senator Laphonza Butler announces she won’t run for a full term 2024. Scott and Marisa discuss the surprise announcement as well as Governor Gavin Newsom’s trip to Israel and what the ongoing dysfunction in the House of Representatives means for vulnerable California Republicans. Then, in the second part of their conversation at KQED Live, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi talks to Marisa and Scott about her husband Paul’s recovery, her decision to run for re-election, homelessness in San Francisco and the Grateful Dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey there, everyone. From KQED Public Radio, this is Political Breakdown. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer. Today on The Breakdown, we continue our conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. This week, she’ll get into why at age 83, she’s running for another two years in Congress. And we’ll talk 2024 electoral politics too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All that’s from our recent on-stage conversation with the San Francisco congresswoman. If you want to watch the entire hour, you can tune in tomorrow night to KQED TV. That’s channel nine. That’s Friday night. We’ll be airing the unedited conversation at 8 p.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But first, Scott, a big news week sort of culminating, or maybe, this afternoon with an announcement from Laphonza Butler, the woman named by Gavin Newsom to fill Dianne Feinstein Senate seat. She says she will not run, putting out a statement saying that she has spent the last several weeks since the appointment pursuing her clarity, thinking about what kind of life she wants to have, what kind of service she wants to offer, and that she’s decided not to run. “Knowing you can win a campaign doesn’t always mean you should run a campaign.” And we have actually the senator in her own voice talking on Fox 11 in Los Angeles to Elex Michaelson. And he, you know, asked her about this question. And she talked a lot about the work she’s done getting particularly women of color elected to office, but had this to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laphonza Butler:\u003c/strong> The divisive nature and of the harassment that is happening both online and in real life. My mother is 70 years old. She didn’t sign up for this. My daughter is nine. She didn’t sign up for for this. And so I’m thinking about my family, my family’s safety. I’ve already gotten my first piece of hate mail and a stranger has shown up at my door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That is certainly a legitimate reason not to run. You know, and especially since she has never run before and so suddenly she’s thrown into this cauldron in D.C. where it’s I mean, right now it’s just red hot for all kinds of reasons. And so it’s you know, it’s not surprising if you come up through the political world and you’ve run for office, you kind of gotten used to being yelled at by your constituents. I could see where this would be, you know, kind of a shock. On the other hand, I think there’s there is a question, was this a real decision? You know, was did she really think about running or as some thought when she was appointed, that she really or she really never intending to run, which is what some people were hoping Newsom would do. But I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I kind of believe her that this has been an iterative process because it does sound like she didn’t have a lot of sort of warning before the governor called. And I do think you have to consider I mean, she’s not just a woman, she’s a black woman. She’s a black female lesbian. She has a young daughter, as she mentioned. You know, outside of that interview, I have heard from people who know her that the yeah, reaction, the hate was very swift. And I do think that that is a real thing. And, you know, if you look at the statement, it’s interesting. I mean, pursuing my clarity, I think, you know, a question of I mean, this doesn’t mean she’ll never run for anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> I think, in fact, she’s gotten a great launch. You know, she is she was it was a brilliant appointment in a lot of ways. It got Newsom out from under a rough spot, promising to appoint a Black woman, but not wanting to appoint somebody who was going to run. I think she was very well received in Washington. And, you know, I don’t know what her name ID exactly is in California, but it’s a lot higher than it was a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well, you know who’s happy today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Barbara Lee, I’m sure is quite happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure Adam Schiff and Katie Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And Nancy Pelosi who we’ll be hearing from in a little bit. But so, yeah, I think, you know, it is rare, as she said, to have that kind of power and to give it up, you know. Because it looked to many who saw her that she was running. She was looking and sounding like a candidate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And she still has a year to do that job and to build that name I.D. I’m like, we are not done hearing from Laphonza Butler. The woman is 43 years old. She was a rising star in the party before all of this. I think this just gives her a little time. And I’m sure there might have been. Yeah, some family conversations. It’s not, as we’ve talked about here in relation to Dianne Feinstein death. Your entire family makes a sacrifice when you go into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Alright well other news we need to get to before we go to the former speaker. Gavin Newsom goes to Israel. He follows President Biden. He is arriving there on Friday, just spending a few hours, it sounds like, meeting with with folks. They haven’t really said who\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Victims of the violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Is he running for president?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He certainly seems to be running for shadow president. I mean, this is quite something. I mean, he addressed the U.N. last month talking about climate change. He’s going to be debating Governor Ron DeSantis, who is running for president at the end of November. So he certainly is looking and sounding like a candidate, and I’m sure he’s keeping the powder dry, if, in fact, that were to open up an opportunity. But it’s also, you know, going to Israel right now, it is a bit of a, you know, minefield, so to speak, to be it is very much inflamed passions on all sides. And, you know, also if when you parachute into a city. Situation like that, it can be very disruptive to everything else that’s going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Probably not more disruptive than the president of the United States. But you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Who has a good reason to be going? I’m not sure he has a good reason to be going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’ll see. Well, and we will be watching. He has then to China on Monday, where he’ll be doing a bunch of meetings with government and business leaders. And so we’ll be watching his latest foray into the world stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, not the only governor, we should say, too Kathy Hochul from New York was there a few days ago and might still be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and a lot I think a lot of at home politics for them to deal with, wrestle with over that situation. Finally, Scott, and this could change honestly in the next few hours. But the House speaker chaos continues that we saw today. First, Jim Jordan saying, you know what, I’ll throw my sort of support behind a caretaker position for the current speaker and or the\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Patrick McHenry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t know what they call him. And then coming out a few hours later saying, no, never mind, maybe I can convince some people. I think what’s interesting here in California is that essentially all of the Republican members who are in purple districts, swing districts where they know they will have tough elections against Democrats, voted to support Jim Jordan. I think it’s important to note that this is not just I mean, Kevin McCarthy is associated with Trump, but Jim Jordan asked Trump for a pardon because according to a lot of reporting, because he thought he might have followed the law over the January six stop the steal a whole thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, he is part of the chaos caucus in the Republican Party in the House right now. And, you know, there’s I’m sure at least some of them are quite happy to see the house grind to a halt. They’re not big on government generally. And although it’s not a good look for the reasons you just stated in terms of bad politics, when you’re running for reelection, just to be part of a party that seems to be dysfunctional and unable to govern. On the other hand, you know, people have voters have a way of kind of forgetting certain things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> It’s a long road —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Although not so long until March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I do think, though, that this is it really does whatever you think about, if voters will remember or care about Jim Jordan, if he lives or dies in the speakership fight, I think it does play into the narrative that Democrats have leaned into about Republicans as a party of chaos, of extremism, of sort of kowtowing to former President Trump. And, you know, I’m not saying that someone like Orange County Congresswoman Michele Steele isn’t still an excellent candidate for her district, but there’s already billboards going up there tying her to Trump and Jordan. And I do think that it is a little and someone like David Valadao, who voted to impeach Trump and is now voting for Jim Jordan, who helped with that attempt to overthrow the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And these are all self-inflicted wounds. You know, this is not like somebody imposed this on them, although I suppose they would say the Democrats did by not voting to support McCarthy. But, you know, in the end, as she has said, it’s their speaker. They have to elect the speaker. No one ever no Republicans ever helped her become speaker. And but it will be interesting, Marissa, I think, to see just how far will Democrats stay on the sidelines here and allow this chaos to develop. There are some big issues coming up, including the funding of the government, which that is going to be in front of them by November. And we’ll see if Hakeem Jeffries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well, not to mention aid to Israel and Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I mean, you know, with a war going on, I do think I mean, you even see in just the tenor of Jordan’s comments, it’s a lot easier to stand on the outside and throw bombs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, exactly. And I think that’s, you know, is it really I think they have to decide, are they going to be a governing party or an outside throwing rocks party?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right. We’re going to take a short break. When we come back, we’ll return to our recent conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to Political Breakdown. Marisa Lagos here with Scott Shafer. We are about to bring you more of our conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. This is from our sit down with her earlier this month at KQED Live. And if you missed part one last week, make sure to subscribe to the Political Breakdown podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Last year, as you may recall, Pelosi’s husband, Paul, was attacked at their home by an assailant who was looking for the former House speaker. We asked Nancy Pelosi how he’s doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for asking. Paul is making rapid progress, probably about 80% back, but he’s doing what he needs to do in terms of therapy and the rest. But it’ll take a few more months and hopefully by Christmas or New Year, he’ll be okay. Thank you, though, for asking. Everybody ask about. All over the world, we get so much, so many prayers and so many thoughts and and goodwill for him. And you know what is so funny? Cause he’s not even political. He’s not even political. And that person came looking for me, and Paul paid the price. Such a sweet person. But Christine and Nancy Corinne are here they are. We take great pride in him and take good care of him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You went when this horrible incident happened. You were asked on CNN, I think it was like, is this going to affect your decision to run for reelection? He said, yes, it definitely will. And I think our initial take was, oh, she’s not going to run. Obviously, you’re running. And I’m wondering, did it have that impact on you? ‘I’m not going to let this guy determine whether or not I run for reelection.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, it a lot of it would depend on how well Paul was improving, that’s for sure. But here’s the thing. For 20, it was more than 35 years I’ve been in contact with 20 of those years, I was speaker or leader eight years speaker, which meant that everything that was happening in the Capitol and the House of Representatives, I had major responsibility for and as leader in the Democratic Party. When that came was coming to an end, the city of San Francisco had given me so much latitude to do that. To take that responsibility, not to the neglect of my city, but nonetheless an additional responsibility in my service In Congress. I visit 87 countries, sometimes once, sometimes five times, sometimes closer to double digit if it were a theater of war like Afghanistan or Iraq.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, for me when I saw that San Francisco had certain needs right now ad what I could do about that in the Congress. I thought, they’ve given me all this latitude. I’m not walking away when the glory days in terms of speakership are over. I’m here, as I always have been, for the people of San Francisco. So it was more about San Francisco. It was also about the fact that our democracy is at stake. And that to me was we do we take the oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, which is at risk is at risk in what we see among some people, one of them, you know who I mean. And that was part of my it was about San Francisco and it was about our democracy. And what it means to individuals in terms of their freedom, what it means for our country, and what it means to the world, that America’s democracy is a strong model to the world of democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Will you commit, there will be an election, your election, and the lot of those questions will be settled when you’re when you’re up for reelection, will you commit to serving two full years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What do you mean two full years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Another full term in the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah that’s what my plan is to do, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I do want to ask, it’s thought that your daughter, Christine Pelosi, who’s here, might want to run for your seat in the future. Would you want her to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We’ve never had that conversation. Shall we have it here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Sure, yeah, we’d love to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> You’re telling me that there’s somebody who wants my job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> [laughs]\u003c/em> But you know public service is a huge sacrifice, and yeah, I’m just curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> It is. And that’s why I respect my colleagues on the other side, have respected my colleagues on the other side of the aisle and the people who send them to the Congress. Public service is service and it is a blessing if you have the privilege to be engaged in it. And I always say to people, because I get asked all the time by young women wh want to be involved, and I say, here’s what I say to them. I say, “know your why.” Know why you want to do this. Is it about children? For me, my why was about children. One in five children in America went to sleep hungry at night, one in five children in America lived in poverty and went to sleep hungry at night. That got me out of the kitchen to the Congress. Housewife, House speaker. The children, for the children and that’s why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So know what you’re talking about. Get the job. Figure out how you can strategically attract people to your point of view. Care, show what’s in your heart. And I say that to young people and say know how important your participation is. In the history of the world, there’s never been anyone like you. So know your power. Know the difference that you can make. And know your why. Because this is hard, it comes at you — I don’t care. But nonetheless, other people do. You get in a ring. You know, beautiful Republican President Teddy Roosevelt, he talked about being in the arena and how you’re not a spectator anymore. You’re a fighter. So I say to them you are in the arena. You know your power, know your why, and know that you’re going to have to take a punch. Sometimes you’re going to have to throw a punch for the children, for the children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But my favorite my favorite line of this is Sister Joyce down in Los Angeles. I just saw the other day she sent me this thing. It was a Bishop in Africa, nailed this to the wall in a hospital and it said, “One day when I die and I happily go to meet my maker. Our creator, he will say to me, Show me your wounds. And if I have no wounds, he will say, was nothing worth fighting for? I’m proud of my wounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after Senator Feinstein passed away, the governor had to make an appointment there’s a lot of reporting that among the things that the governor had to consider was you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Oh no, why would I want to be a Senator, I’ve been Speaker of the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Did you have any conversations with the governor about the appointment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No, no, none.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Not one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No. Maybe jokingly, I may have said, no I don’t even think jokingly. I don’t think we ever had a conversation about it. But I’m very proud of the governor. We’re very proud that he was mayor of San Francisco. He is knowledgeable, articulate, and out there in the fray to hold to fight for our democracy as we go into this in this campaign. So. No, no, no. I never did have a conversation with him. It was up to him. He had a lot of appointments. He appointed a Senator Alex Padilla, wonderful. An attorney general. Then. Well, no, Jerry Brown did the first appointment of Xavier Becerra and then he put in Bonta, and then the secretary of state and then another senator. That’s a lot of appointments for one person for a governor. He handled it very with excellent people all throughout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you speak in very glowing terms of President Biden. And obviously it will be alongside him campaigning next year for the Democrats. I’m just curious, like you talked about the economy. I mean, so important. We hear a lot these days about immigration on the border. What do you think success looks like on some of these issues in terms of communicating some of the wins you laid out to the electorate? Because it doesn’t seem by the poll numbers that people are feeling some of those good that that good news. And there’s a lot of fear about what’s happening on the southern border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, the border, we have a responsibility to secure our border. There’s no question about that. And we want to do so in a way that honors our values. I’ve worked with the with the evangelicals, for example, and when what’s his name tried to do a ban on Muslims and the rest, we had a big come together and they said, the U.S. refugee resettlement program is the crown jewel of American humanitarianism. That’s the evangelicals. So we have again, we have to to honor our values as we protect our border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But let me just say this. I’m not a big believer in the polls in the last election, say around now. Did you ever hear that we’re going to lose 30 or 40 seats? It was going to be a red wave. This red wave was coming. And I said, you know what, that’s just ain’t the case because we had our elections. We knew we said to people in the district, in one district at a time, your person voted against democracy, voted against gun violence protection, voted against saving the environment, voted against a woman’s right to choose, and they all lost. We won every seat except New York. We lost five seats and we’ll win those in the next election. But the polls said we were going to lose 30 to 40. We lost five.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And it’s a year out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> So as far as that’s concerned, I think that we have to improve the, we have to give the people the message the way they receive it. And when they’re ready to receive it. And I feel very confident that the president will succeed. I didn’t tell you this, remember I told you about food out of their mouths. Heating oil for seniors and all that. Would you believe that the Republicans want to take almost 80% of the funding for Title One, education for the poorest children in America. They want to take almost all of it away. Why I say that is because education is part of our democracy. An informed electorate is the crown jewel of a democracy. And they want. If you live in the suburbs and you have high tax areas where they can go to school and have a wonderful education, God bless them for that. But why would you take 80% of the money from the poorest kids in America? It’s just, it’s wrong, but it’s also un-democratic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when we again go out there and make the case where people are ready to receive it, who give a damn about justice and fairness and liberty and justice for all. What good is it to say to a country if you’re poor, we don’t want you to even have an education because you know what? You’re depriving America of some of the best talent, some of the freshest thinking that you don’t even know about, not to even mention them reaching their self-fulfillment, but for America making America strong. So when you see how we are, you know, in the fight. Throwing the punch, as Diane said ‘Why do you have to be the one always making the charge?’ It’s because of the oath we take to protect and defend the Constitution. The pledge we take for liberty and justice for all. That the flag is still there. And that’s what you will see. And that’s why we do this. That’s why we do this. And that is what is at stake in this election. The children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You’ve children you’ve mentioned San Francisco a number of times. Obviously, you care deeply about your city. And San Francisco’s had its moment in the barrel. You know, we’re constantly being attacked by Fox News. There are serious problems on the streets with fentanyl, homelessness, public safety, you know, car break ins. Homelessness is at the root of a lot of that. And I’m wondering, you know, we talk about the city. What can the city do? What can the state do? But why isn’t the federal government doing more? Do you feel like, because under Republican and Democratic presidents, it seems like, for example, HUD funding has been going down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well let me just say that I don’t agree with how you describe San Francisco. That’s how The New York Times might describe San Francisco. And yes, we have fentanyl on the street. Homelessness has been largely addressed, except if you’re talking about —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Encampments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Drug use and fentanyl and the rest of that. And the federal government has done a lot of things under President Obama and under President Biden to recognize the beautiful diversity of communities like ours in terms of of how the laws are written to provide as much affordable, we get low income, affordable housing and then market rate. Most for low income and affordable housing. So a lot of what’s on the street now is not necessarily about homelessness as it is related to drug use. And that’s one of the things I’m working very hard on. And I think the city has done a good job. The mayor has done a good job in getting people off the street. But if they don’t want to leave, then we just have to address the fentanyl issue. This, see this thing here. Just the base, not the flap where just the flowers, not the base. Less than that of fentanyl would kill the whole city of San Francisco. This chair. 25% of the people on the Earth. Fentanyl, it’s so deadly. And yet chemicals from China processed in Mexico, brought into the United States, some of it sold in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I’ve called on the federal government to do a what is called a well, an initiative where there is violence and drug use, they can come in and help get that off the street. And that’s what they are working on. And we’ll be making some announcements about that. But it’s a decision and the community has to recognize that there has to be more law enforcement. You know, we want everybody’s rights protected and the rest. But there has to be more law enforcement because this is deadly. But San Francisco is so great and we’re resilient. We are resilient. We are a great place. We have great values. The song of Saint Francis and our anthem make me an instrument of thy peace. Such greatness, beautiful diversity of people, of opinion, of religion, of politics, just different from each other, but respectful of everyone. So I couldn’t be prouder than to speak for the people of San Francisco on the floor of the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We are short on time, but we did learn last month that you are a Deadhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That’s quite a pivot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I know, but we had to get this question. And so what’s your usual concert attire? We usually see you dressed for the House of Representatives and events like this. And what’s your favorite song?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, here’s the thing. I love the Grateful Dead. And they had this article that I love, the Grateful Dead, which I do and have for years. And they’ve done a lot of political things for us and this or that and this last.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> The last concert. Final, final, final.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Final of the Grateful Dead, I was there. And then I went to say hi to them during intermission and they said, no, you have to stay on stage for it. So. So they were there. And I was right here. It was fabulous. It was great. And then they gave me something “vote.” Now you go out there and hold a sign that says voters and no, I’m not going out there and have that song. We want people to vote. We don’t want them to take it out on a politician who shows up at a rock and roll concert. I love them. I love you U2. U2 they just did a beautiful thing about Israel. I love so many. The one that I regret that I never saw. I’ve seen almost everybody. The one I never saw was Queen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Are you in heels at the concerts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I think I had boots. It was a little chilly that night and chilly that night. I don’t even remember what I had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I had to ask because you’re famous for the heels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, usually I do. But I don’t remember what I had that night because it was cold. In fact, I said to Bobby Weir, you’ve got to put on —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Bob Weir?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I said you’ve got to put on socks, it’s cold. He said oh no I’m fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> How do you know them so well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Oh, they. When I became whip, which was the big moment, you know, in other words, who became whip was going to do that. And they came and did a show for me in Washington, DC. It was quite remarkable. Nobody ever saw anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi, thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That’s a wrap for tonight’s edition of Political Breakdown, a production of KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We want to say thanks to our KQED Live crew, including executive director Ryan Davis and producer Lance Gardner. Our radio engineer is Jim Bennett. And I’m Marisa Lagos, thanks for coming tonight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> And let’s thank Scott and Marisa for their wonderful questioning and orchestrating all of this tonight. And thank all of you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Senator Laphonza Butler announces she won’t run for a full term 2024. Scott and Marisa discuss the surprise announcement as well as Governor Gavin Newsom’s trip to Israel and what the ongoing dysfunction in the House of Representatives means for vulnerable California Republicans. Then, in the second part of their conversation at KQED Live, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi talks to Marisa and Scott about her husband Paul’s recovery, her decision to run for re-election, homelessness in San Francisco and the Grateful Dead.\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey there, everyone. From KQED Public Radio, this is Political Breakdown. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer. Today on The Breakdown, we continue our conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. This week, she’ll get into why at age 83, she’s running for another two years in Congress. And we’ll talk 2024 electoral politics too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All that’s from our recent on-stage conversation with the San Francisco congresswoman. If you want to watch the entire hour, you can tune in tomorrow night to KQED TV. That’s channel nine. That’s Friday night. We’ll be airing the unedited conversation at 8 p.m.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But first, Scott, a big news week sort of culminating, or maybe, this afternoon with an announcement from Laphonza Butler, the woman named by Gavin Newsom to fill Dianne Feinstein Senate seat. She says she will not run, putting out a statement saying that she has spent the last several weeks since the appointment pursuing her clarity, thinking about what kind of life she wants to have, what kind of service she wants to offer, and that she’s decided not to run. “Knowing you can win a campaign doesn’t always mean you should run a campaign.” And we have actually the senator in her own voice talking on Fox 11 in Los Angeles to Elex Michaelson. And he, you know, asked her about this question. And she talked a lot about the work she’s done getting particularly women of color elected to office, but had this to say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laphonza Butler:\u003c/strong> The divisive nature and of the harassment that is happening both online and in real life. My mother is 70 years old. She didn’t sign up for this. My daughter is nine. She didn’t sign up for for this. And so I’m thinking about my family, my family’s safety. I’ve already gotten my first piece of hate mail and a stranger has shown up at my door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That is certainly a legitimate reason not to run. You know, and especially since she has never run before and so suddenly she’s thrown into this cauldron in D.C. where it’s I mean, right now it’s just red hot for all kinds of reasons. And so it’s you know, it’s not surprising if you come up through the political world and you’ve run for office, you kind of gotten used to being yelled at by your constituents. I could see where this would be, you know, kind of a shock. On the other hand, I think there’s there is a question, was this a real decision? You know, was did she really think about running or as some thought when she was appointed, that she really or she really never intending to run, which is what some people were hoping Newsom would do. But I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I kind of believe her that this has been an iterative process because it does sound like she didn’t have a lot of sort of warning before the governor called. And I do think you have to consider I mean, she’s not just a woman, she’s a black woman. She’s a black female lesbian. She has a young daughter, as she mentioned. You know, outside of that interview, I have heard from people who know her that the yeah, reaction, the hate was very swift. And I do think that that is a real thing. And, you know, if you look at the statement, it’s interesting. I mean, pursuing my clarity, I think, you know, a question of I mean, this doesn’t mean she’ll never run for anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> I think, in fact, she’s gotten a great launch. You know, she is she was it was a brilliant appointment in a lot of ways. It got Newsom out from under a rough spot, promising to appoint a Black woman, but not wanting to appoint somebody who was going to run. I think she was very well received in Washington. And, you know, I don’t know what her name ID exactly is in California, but it’s a lot higher than it was a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well, you know who’s happy today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Barbara Lee, I’m sure is quite happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I’m sure Adam Schiff and Katie Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And Nancy Pelosi who we’ll be hearing from in a little bit. But so, yeah, I think, you know, it is rare, as she said, to have that kind of power and to give it up, you know. Because it looked to many who saw her that she was running. She was looking and sounding like a candidate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And she still has a year to do that job and to build that name I.D. I’m like, we are not done hearing from Laphonza Butler. The woman is 43 years old. She was a rising star in the party before all of this. I think this just gives her a little time. And I’m sure there might have been. Yeah, some family conversations. It’s not, as we’ve talked about here in relation to Dianne Feinstein death. Your entire family makes a sacrifice when you go into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Alright well other news we need to get to before we go to the former speaker. Gavin Newsom goes to Israel. He follows President Biden. He is arriving there on Friday, just spending a few hours, it sounds like, meeting with with folks. They haven’t really said who\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Victims of the violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Is he running for president?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> He certainly seems to be running for shadow president. I mean, this is quite something. I mean, he addressed the U.N. last month talking about climate change. He’s going to be debating Governor Ron DeSantis, who is running for president at the end of November. So he certainly is looking and sounding like a candidate, and I’m sure he’s keeping the powder dry, if, in fact, that were to open up an opportunity. But it’s also, you know, going to Israel right now, it is a bit of a, you know, minefield, so to speak, to be it is very much inflamed passions on all sides. And, you know, also if when you parachute into a city. Situation like that, it can be very disruptive to everything else that’s going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Probably not more disruptive than the president of the United States. But you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Who has a good reason to be going? I’m not sure he has a good reason to be going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’ll see. Well, and we will be watching. He has then to China on Monday, where he’ll be doing a bunch of meetings with government and business leaders. And so we’ll be watching his latest foray into the world stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, not the only governor, we should say, too Kathy Hochul from New York was there a few days ago and might still be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and a lot I think a lot of at home politics for them to deal with, wrestle with over that situation. Finally, Scott, and this could change honestly in the next few hours. But the House speaker chaos continues that we saw today. First, Jim Jordan saying, you know what, I’ll throw my sort of support behind a caretaker position for the current speaker and or the\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Patrick McHenry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I don’t know what they call him. And then coming out a few hours later saying, no, never mind, maybe I can convince some people. I think what’s interesting here in California is that essentially all of the Republican members who are in purple districts, swing districts where they know they will have tough elections against Democrats, voted to support Jim Jordan. I think it’s important to note that this is not just I mean, Kevin McCarthy is associated with Trump, but Jim Jordan asked Trump for a pardon because according to a lot of reporting, because he thought he might have followed the law over the January six stop the steal a whole thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I mean, he is part of the chaos caucus in the Republican Party in the House right now. And, you know, there’s I’m sure at least some of them are quite happy to see the house grind to a halt. They’re not big on government generally. And although it’s not a good look for the reasons you just stated in terms of bad politics, when you’re running for reelection, just to be part of a party that seems to be dysfunctional and unable to govern. On the other hand, you know, people have voters have a way of kind of forgetting certain things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> It’s a long road —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Although not so long until March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I do think, though, that this is it really does whatever you think about, if voters will remember or care about Jim Jordan, if he lives or dies in the speakership fight, I think it does play into the narrative that Democrats have leaned into about Republicans as a party of chaos, of extremism, of sort of kowtowing to former President Trump. And, you know, I’m not saying that someone like Orange County Congresswoman Michele Steele isn’t still an excellent candidate for her district, but there’s already billboards going up there tying her to Trump and Jordan. And I do think that it is a little and someone like David Valadao, who voted to impeach Trump and is now voting for Jim Jordan, who helped with that attempt to overthrow the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And these are all self-inflicted wounds. You know, this is not like somebody imposed this on them, although I suppose they would say the Democrats did by not voting to support McCarthy. But, you know, in the end, as she has said, it’s their speaker. They have to elect the speaker. No one ever no Republicans ever helped her become speaker. And but it will be interesting, Marissa, I think, to see just how far will Democrats stay on the sidelines here and allow this chaos to develop. There are some big issues coming up, including the funding of the government, which that is going to be in front of them by November. And we’ll see if Hakeem Jeffries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well, not to mention aid to Israel and Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I mean, you know, with a war going on, I do think I mean, you even see in just the tenor of Jordan’s comments, it’s a lot easier to stand on the outside and throw bombs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, exactly. And I think that’s, you know, is it really I think they have to decide, are they going to be a governing party or an outside throwing rocks party?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right. We’re going to take a short break. When we come back, we’ll return to our recent conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to Political Breakdown. Marisa Lagos here with Scott Shafer. We are about to bring you more of our conversation with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. This is from our sit down with her earlier this month at KQED Live. And if you missed part one last week, make sure to subscribe to the Political Breakdown podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Last year, as you may recall, Pelosi’s husband, Paul, was attacked at their home by an assailant who was looking for the former House speaker. We asked Nancy Pelosi how he’s doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Thank you for asking. Paul is making rapid progress, probably about 80% back, but he’s doing what he needs to do in terms of therapy and the rest. But it’ll take a few more months and hopefully by Christmas or New Year, he’ll be okay. Thank you, though, for asking. Everybody ask about. All over the world, we get so much, so many prayers and so many thoughts and and goodwill for him. And you know what is so funny? Cause he’s not even political. He’s not even political. And that person came looking for me, and Paul paid the price. Such a sweet person. But Christine and Nancy Corinne are here they are. We take great pride in him and take good care of him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You went when this horrible incident happened. You were asked on CNN, I think it was like, is this going to affect your decision to run for reelection? He said, yes, it definitely will. And I think our initial take was, oh, she’s not going to run. Obviously, you’re running. And I’m wondering, did it have that impact on you? ‘I’m not going to let this guy determine whether or not I run for reelection.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, it a lot of it would depend on how well Paul was improving, that’s for sure. But here’s the thing. For 20, it was more than 35 years I’ve been in contact with 20 of those years, I was speaker or leader eight years speaker, which meant that everything that was happening in the Capitol and the House of Representatives, I had major responsibility for and as leader in the Democratic Party. When that came was coming to an end, the city of San Francisco had given me so much latitude to do that. To take that responsibility, not to the neglect of my city, but nonetheless an additional responsibility in my service In Congress. I visit 87 countries, sometimes once, sometimes five times, sometimes closer to double digit if it were a theater of war like Afghanistan or Iraq.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, for me when I saw that San Francisco had certain needs right now ad what I could do about that in the Congress. I thought, they’ve given me all this latitude. I’m not walking away when the glory days in terms of speakership are over. I’m here, as I always have been, for the people of San Francisco. So it was more about San Francisco. It was also about the fact that our democracy is at stake. And that to me was we do we take the oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, which is at risk is at risk in what we see among some people, one of them, you know who I mean. And that was part of my it was about San Francisco and it was about our democracy. And what it means to individuals in terms of their freedom, what it means for our country, and what it means to the world, that America’s democracy is a strong model to the world of democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Will you commit, there will be an election, your election, and the lot of those questions will be settled when you’re when you’re up for reelection, will you commit to serving two full years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What do you mean two full years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Another full term in the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah that’s what my plan is to do, of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I do want to ask, it’s thought that your daughter, Christine Pelosi, who’s here, might want to run for your seat in the future. Would you want her to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> We’ve never had that conversation. Shall we have it here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Sure, yeah, we’d love to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> You’re telling me that there’s somebody who wants my job?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> [laughs]\u003c/em> But you know public service is a huge sacrifice, and yeah, I’m just curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> It is. And that’s why I respect my colleagues on the other side, have respected my colleagues on the other side of the aisle and the people who send them to the Congress. Public service is service and it is a blessing if you have the privilege to be engaged in it. And I always say to people, because I get asked all the time by young women wh want to be involved, and I say, here’s what I say to them. I say, “know your why.” Know why you want to do this. Is it about children? For me, my why was about children. One in five children in America went to sleep hungry at night, one in five children in America lived in poverty and went to sleep hungry at night. That got me out of the kitchen to the Congress. Housewife, House speaker. The children, for the children and that’s why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So know what you’re talking about. Get the job. Figure out how you can strategically attract people to your point of view. Care, show what’s in your heart. And I say that to young people and say know how important your participation is. In the history of the world, there’s never been anyone like you. So know your power. Know the difference that you can make. And know your why. Because this is hard, it comes at you — I don’t care. But nonetheless, other people do. You get in a ring. You know, beautiful Republican President Teddy Roosevelt, he talked about being in the arena and how you’re not a spectator anymore. You’re a fighter. So I say to them you are in the arena. You know your power, know your why, and know that you’re going to have to take a punch. Sometimes you’re going to have to throw a punch for the children, for the children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But my favorite my favorite line of this is Sister Joyce down in Los Angeles. I just saw the other day she sent me this thing. It was a Bishop in Africa, nailed this to the wall in a hospital and it said, “One day when I die and I happily go to meet my maker. Our creator, he will say to me, Show me your wounds. And if I have no wounds, he will say, was nothing worth fighting for? I’m proud of my wounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So after Senator Feinstein passed away, the governor had to make an appointment there’s a lot of reporting that among the things that the governor had to consider was you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Oh no, why would I want to be a Senator, I’ve been Speaker of the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Did you have any conversations with the governor about the appointment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No, no, none.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Not one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No. Maybe jokingly, I may have said, no I don’t even think jokingly. I don’t think we ever had a conversation about it. But I’m very proud of the governor. We’re very proud that he was mayor of San Francisco. He is knowledgeable, articulate, and out there in the fray to hold to fight for our democracy as we go into this in this campaign. So. No, no, no. I never did have a conversation with him. It was up to him. He had a lot of appointments. He appointed a Senator Alex Padilla, wonderful. An attorney general. Then. Well, no, Jerry Brown did the first appointment of Xavier Becerra and then he put in Bonta, and then the secretary of state and then another senator. That’s a lot of appointments for one person for a governor. He handled it very with excellent people all throughout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> You know, you speak in very glowing terms of President Biden. And obviously it will be alongside him campaigning next year for the Democrats. I’m just curious, like you talked about the economy. I mean, so important. We hear a lot these days about immigration on the border. What do you think success looks like on some of these issues in terms of communicating some of the wins you laid out to the electorate? Because it doesn’t seem by the poll numbers that people are feeling some of those good that that good news. And there’s a lot of fear about what’s happening on the southern border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, the border, we have a responsibility to secure our border. There’s no question about that. And we want to do so in a way that honors our values. I’ve worked with the with the evangelicals, for example, and when what’s his name tried to do a ban on Muslims and the rest, we had a big come together and they said, the U.S. refugee resettlement program is the crown jewel of American humanitarianism. That’s the evangelicals. So we have again, we have to to honor our values as we protect our border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But let me just say this. I’m not a big believer in the polls in the last election, say around now. Did you ever hear that we’re going to lose 30 or 40 seats? It was going to be a red wave. This red wave was coming. And I said, you know what, that’s just ain’t the case because we had our elections. We knew we said to people in the district, in one district at a time, your person voted against democracy, voted against gun violence protection, voted against saving the environment, voted against a woman’s right to choose, and they all lost. We won every seat except New York. We lost five seats and we’ll win those in the next election. But the polls said we were going to lose 30 to 40. We lost five.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And it’s a year out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> So as far as that’s concerned, I think that we have to improve the, we have to give the people the message the way they receive it. And when they’re ready to receive it. And I feel very confident that the president will succeed. I didn’t tell you this, remember I told you about food out of their mouths. Heating oil for seniors and all that. Would you believe that the Republicans want to take almost 80% of the funding for Title One, education for the poorest children in America. They want to take almost all of it away. Why I say that is because education is part of our democracy. An informed electorate is the crown jewel of a democracy. And they want. If you live in the suburbs and you have high tax areas where they can go to school and have a wonderful education, God bless them for that. But why would you take 80% of the money from the poorest kids in America? It’s just, it’s wrong, but it’s also un-democratic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So when we again go out there and make the case where people are ready to receive it, who give a damn about justice and fairness and liberty and justice for all. What good is it to say to a country if you’re poor, we don’t want you to even have an education because you know what? You’re depriving America of some of the best talent, some of the freshest thinking that you don’t even know about, not to even mention them reaching their self-fulfillment, but for America making America strong. So when you see how we are, you know, in the fight. Throwing the punch, as Diane said ‘Why do you have to be the one always making the charge?’ It’s because of the oath we take to protect and defend the Constitution. The pledge we take for liberty and justice for all. That the flag is still there. And that’s what you will see. And that’s why we do this. That’s why we do this. And that is what is at stake in this election. The children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You’ve children you’ve mentioned San Francisco a number of times. Obviously, you care deeply about your city. And San Francisco’s had its moment in the barrel. You know, we’re constantly being attacked by Fox News. There are serious problems on the streets with fentanyl, homelessness, public safety, you know, car break ins. Homelessness is at the root of a lot of that. And I’m wondering, you know, we talk about the city. What can the city do? What can the state do? But why isn’t the federal government doing more? Do you feel like, because under Republican and Democratic presidents, it seems like, for example, HUD funding has been going down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well let me just say that I don’t agree with how you describe San Francisco. That’s how The New York Times might describe San Francisco. And yes, we have fentanyl on the street. Homelessness has been largely addressed, except if you’re talking about —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Encampments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Drug use and fentanyl and the rest of that. And the federal government has done a lot of things under President Obama and under President Biden to recognize the beautiful diversity of communities like ours in terms of of how the laws are written to provide as much affordable, we get low income, affordable housing and then market rate. Most for low income and affordable housing. So a lot of what’s on the street now is not necessarily about homelessness as it is related to drug use. And that’s one of the things I’m working very hard on. And I think the city has done a good job. The mayor has done a good job in getting people off the street. But if they don’t want to leave, then we just have to address the fentanyl issue. This, see this thing here. Just the base, not the flap where just the flowers, not the base. Less than that of fentanyl would kill the whole city of San Francisco. This chair. 25% of the people on the Earth. Fentanyl, it’s so deadly. And yet chemicals from China processed in Mexico, brought into the United States, some of it sold in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I’ve called on the federal government to do a what is called a well, an initiative where there is violence and drug use, they can come in and help get that off the street. And that’s what they are working on. And we’ll be making some announcements about that. But it’s a decision and the community has to recognize that there has to be more law enforcement. You know, we want everybody’s rights protected and the rest. But there has to be more law enforcement because this is deadly. But San Francisco is so great and we’re resilient. We are resilient. We are a great place. We have great values. The song of Saint Francis and our anthem make me an instrument of thy peace. Such greatness, beautiful diversity of people, of opinion, of religion, of politics, just different from each other, but respectful of everyone. So I couldn’t be prouder than to speak for the people of San Francisco on the floor of the House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We are short on time, but we did learn last month that you are a Deadhead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That’s quite a pivot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I know, but we had to get this question. And so what’s your usual concert attire? We usually see you dressed for the House of Representatives and events like this. And what’s your favorite song?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, here’s the thing. I love the Grateful Dead. And they had this article that I love, the Grateful Dead, which I do and have for years. And they’ve done a lot of political things for us and this or that and this last.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> The last concert. Final, final, final.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Final of the Grateful Dead, I was there. And then I went to say hi to them during intermission and they said, no, you have to stay on stage for it. So. So they were there. And I was right here. It was fabulous. It was great. And then they gave me something “vote.” Now you go out there and hold a sign that says voters and no, I’m not going out there and have that song. We want people to vote. We don’t want them to take it out on a politician who shows up at a rock and roll concert. I love them. I love you U2. U2 they just did a beautiful thing about Israel. I love so many. The one that I regret that I never saw. I’ve seen almost everybody. The one I never saw was Queen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Are you in heels at the concerts?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I think I had boots. It was a little chilly that night and chilly that night. I don’t even remember what I had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I had to ask because you’re famous for the heels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah, usually I do. But I don’t remember what I had that night because it was cold. In fact, I said to Bobby Weir, you’ve got to put on —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Bob Weir?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I said you’ve got to put on socks, it’s cold. He said oh no I’m fine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> How do you know them so well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Oh, they. When I became whip, which was the big moment, you know, in other words, who became whip was going to do that. And they came and did a show for me in Washington, DC. It was quite remarkable. Nobody ever saw anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> All right. Well, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi, thanks so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> That’s a wrap for tonight’s edition of Political Breakdown, a production of KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We want to say thanks to our KQED Live crew, including executive director Ryan Davis and producer Lance Gardner. Our radio engineer is Jim Bennett. And I’m Marisa Lagos, thanks for coming tonight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> And let’s thank Scott and Marisa for their wonderful questioning and orchestrating all of this tonight. And thank all of you.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Nancy Pelosi on Israel and the House Speaker Fight",
"headTitle": "Nancy Pelosi on Israel and the House Speaker Fight | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi joins Scott and Marisa at KQED Live to talk about the Israel-Hamas war and the Republican scramble to find a new speaker of the House of Representatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Hey, everybody. From KQED Public Radio. This is Political Breakdown. I’m Scott Shafer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I’m Marisa Lagos. Today on The Breakdown. House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi joins us here at KQED to talk about everything happening in the world right now, including the war between Hamas and Israel and the problems House Republicans are having electing a new speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, in fact, those problems are continuing. And Marisa, we originally had this conversation with Nancy Pelosi scheduled for Tuesday of this week, and we had to move it to Monday because she had to be back in D.C. And of course, we this was all set up months ago. We had no idea everything that was being happening, including the war between Israel and Hamas. So it was you know, there was so much to talk about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, as somebody who I’m pretty sure never takes a day off, even Pelosi seemed like it had been quite a week or two. Right. I mean, you know, there was obviously Senator Dianne Feinstein’s death, the kind of, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Emotional impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> The outpouring and and all of the things that I think Pelosi wanted to be and felt that she should be out around that the appointment of Lafond, a butler to the Senate and then, as you said, this kind of mess in the House which you know just it was interesting watching her because she’s definitely in her element in a way now that she was not when she was the leader of the Democrats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, she’s like kind of, you know, unshackled in a way. I mean, she she she’s cut loose from having to represent the entire caucus. And now she’s from, quote unquote, liberal San Francisco. She can really speak her mind. Unplugged is the word I was looking for, which she very much is plugged in to everything. And it does. You do wonder like, yes, Hakeem Jeffries is the, you know, the minority leader. But you’ve got to think they’re on the phone quite regularly talking about strategy and you know how to play certain things. And, you know, the caucus came out very united against helping Kevin McCarthy hold on to the speakership. Seven Republicans kind of bailed on him. And, you know, it was interesting to hear her thoughts on why didn’t Democrats help McCarthy. And, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But you say she’s unplugged, but she’s still Pelosi. And like, let’s be clear, you will hear this again and again. Pelosi says what Pelosi wants. Like there is no there are many times where she just sort of like heard our question and kind of came back to it later. But she definitely is very much in sort of charge of her faculties when it comes to talking to the press and knowing when she would and wouldn’t make news, for example, when we pushed her on. Look, you know, at the time it was a real contest between Jim Jordan, who is more of a sort of MAGA extremist Republican, and Scalise, who is also, I think in past years would have been considered a pretty hard right guy, but in these days is more of an establishment Republican. And, you know, I think she made very clear she did not want to weigh in on that, saying why would I help them or hurt them by saying I like them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> As if, you know, saying something nice might actually hurt them, although I think it’s proves pretty clear reading between the lines. She does not think much of Jim Jordan, who founded the Freedom Caucus, but I’m sure she’s not buddies with Scalise, although they are both Italian. So she didn’t bite on that one. But yeah, so, you know, all these things that I guess are going to emerge. And then of course, you know, McCarthy has kind of offered himself up if they can’t, you know, get the votes for either Scalise or Jordan, I can’t really see that happening. But who knows they right now, because clearly, although they you know, Scalise had a plurality of the votes or a majority of the caucus, he’s nowhere near the 218 he needs to win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I will say to one of the things you also hear, I think Pelosi has really mastered this ability. That’s very rare, I think, for women in politics to both be very confident without sounding sort of braggadocious. And so it would point, you know, you you say you’ve called yourself a master legislator. She’s like, yeah, I have. You know, and then there’s a couple other funny moments like that when, you know, we’ll get to this next week because we actually have a second episode with her out of this. But asking her about the future of her congressional seat, her daughter Christine, who’s rumored to want to run, was sitting in the front row, kind of kind of egging her on the whole time. So, you know, I just think she again, it was clear that she was sort of enjoying some of the politics of what’s going on, not having to be in the driver’s seat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she came dressed in like a lavender pantsuit, looked very comfortable. And so, as you said, we’re going to be hearing in just a moment the first or not not exactly the first half, but half of the interview. And then next week she’ll be talking more about the fans of Butler, the thoughts about that Senate seat, which we still don’t know at this as we speak right here today, whether Lafond, about who’s going to run for the six year full term. We also talked a little bit about Paul Pelosi, her husband, who was with her at the memorial for Senator Feinstein. And, you know, she said a little bit more about him that than she has in the past. And I think they said we’ll hear more of that next week. And then a little revelation. Thanks to Mark Barabak from the L.A. Times. We asked her about her apparent fondness for the Grateful Dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, just color me shocked. If there was a band, I would have thought that Nancy Pelosi would be in and too, it would not have been the Grateful Dead. But she’s been to many concerts, including the allegedly final one, you know, one of many Final Dead concerts she’s referring to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Bobbie, I was like, that’s got to be Bob Weir, she says, Oh, yeah, Bobby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Bobby. Bobby. And, you know, gave a shout out to U2 as well and did clear up a rumor. Apparently Paul Pelosi does not actually do her shopping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was that’s been out there in the ether Ethernet Internet for a long time. But yeah, she does her own shopping. Yeah. So we’re going to hear all of that. And then, as you said, tune in next week for the second part of this conversation. She is, you know, 83 years old, but, you know, very clearly in charge of, you know, the sort of the environment that she excels in, which is the arena.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Brushed them off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she did, But she said she’s ready to go. All right. We’re going to take a short break. And when we come back, we’re going to hear our conversation with Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Please welcome Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. All right. Well, what are we going to talk about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What has changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> We know that you and Mayor Breed yesterday, I believe, were at a rally in support of Israel. Obviously, there’s a terrible war that’s underway right now. Hundreds have died on both sides. And we’re wondering, first of all, just since this is at the top of the news, what do you see as the most short term implications of all this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you. It’s wonderful to be with you. Thank you all for being here. Change of date. That’s always well, that’s the life I lead. When we accepted the invitation and so honored to be with all of you, whenever that was, what, two weeks ago or something longer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Months. Okay, well, just in the last ten days, we lost our dear Diane. The invasion of Israel. So horrible. And, of course, the confusion on the other side of the aisle. This yesterday we were at a temple. It was a big outpouring of support for Israel. Also, I was able to say that Mike Pappas was there, head of interfaith council, and he said that that Christians, Catholics, everyone, every religion was mourning for the Israelis and sending their support. This is something so tragic. You know, there are many injustices in the world, one thing and another. But there is no excuse for the barbaric violence that was we saw happen in Israel. I had a friend whose niece, Grande, whose niece was killed, her husband was killed and the infant baby were killed there. Little children, other little children, they had hid in a closet and they were later rescued. But what the barbaric nature of that, there’s no it’s. Some people say it’s unforgivable. I don’t like to think that anything is unforgivable, but it’s very close to unforgivable that that would that that would happen. So when you say where do we go from here? We always have to see everything as an opportunity to see how we can bring people together. This is really hard. And we’re hard because we don’t. We’ll see what happens in the end. The violence that appears to be continuing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> When you say it’s hard, what do you mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, when human life is taken in a way. Now, again, are there countries that are at war? I have I feel the same way about Putin in Ukraine, kidnaping children, killing and raping women. I don’t know if the rape is happening in Israel, but that’s what’s happening in Ukraine. There’s no that’s using. Violence against civilians as a weapon of war. Don’t be a coward. You won’t go for war. Fight militarily. That’s not something we love. But don’t take it out on the children, the moms, the families here, they kidnap. You can see them kidnaping little children. 80 year old grandmoms. All the rest. So it’s it’s very hard. To overcome that kind of loss in your family and your community and in your country. But let us pray. Let us pray that some good can come of it. They were observing the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, and people said that some good things that was not a good thing, a war. But actually, there was a path to some. Better situation following that. Maybe something will come here, but it’s very hard to see and it will take a while, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Do you think? I mean, we’ve seen President Biden call this Israeli government the most extreme ever, President Netanyahu. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been, you know, working on dismantling the court and I think, you know, isolating the settlements. I want, you know, the Gaza Strip. Does all of that complicate the way that you and others in Washington can respond to this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No, I mean, I’m not a big fan of the current government of of Israel. And all that you say is of concern, but none of it. None of it makes any difference when when military force comes in and starts killing civilians and kidnaping and the rest. So I don’t see any relationship between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Do you think that we’re hearing tonight that there may be a move to link Ukraine aid and Israeli aid and Congress? What do you think about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that we have to do both. So I’m okay with linking it, but we don’t really even have a functioning House of Representatives and hopefully when we do, that will be facilitated. But the there is strong support for Ukraine aid in the Congress of the United States, bipartisan House and Senate. There’s strong support for Israeli assistance to Israel. One of the issues that we’re all facing is the fate of Americans in Israel. Some are visitors, some are by Israeli America. They have dual citizenship. All of them are of concern to us, not any more than any other Israeli. But nonetheless, that’s our responsibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s shift to what’s happening in Washington and or not happening. I know you’re as we said, you’re going back tomorrow. There’s one way or the other. There will eventually be a speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> How are you and your caucus thinking about that vote?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, just so you know, I mean, I think it’s important to note because the things people say, I think, no, that’s not how it works. You have an election. Somebody wins. The party that wins, selects, nominates and chooses the Speaker of the House. So when I see on TV, they say the Democrats and eight Republicans took down the speaker. No Republicans took down their speaker. That I met when I all the times I was elected leader or speaker for 20 years. I never had one Republican vote, nor would it have been appropriate. It’s up to the party to elect its leaders, whether it’s the speaker or the leader. It’s up to the party. So I haven’t the I would be the last person to act ask about what’s going on in the Republican caucus or second last. But right up there. Right up there. And I just hope and pray that they can come to their own unity. But it is it’s very difficult because people said, well, why didn’t you all vote for them and this or that? We said, well, if that isn’t our role, it’s up to them to select.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I said, now we have our major differences. For example, right now we’re having a fight with them about they want to cut 30% from the food for which women, infant children for for food, for food. Out of the mouths of babes are, what, 80%, 70 to 80% for low income heating. Assistance for mostly poor seniors in our country. The list goes on and on about the things that they want to cut on. They have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, all of that on the table. Why? Because they’re concerned about the budget. They’re concerned about feeding babies. But they weren’t concerned when they get a $2 trillion tax cut to the richest people in America. And it was. But with interest to the national debt, $2 trillion, 83% of it went to the top 1%, not creating any vitality in our. But they didn’t worry about the national debt or the budget then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, what I’m hearing you say is that this is not Democrats responsibility. And it seems, from what we’ve heard, that speaker, former Speaker McCarthy, didn’t offer Democrats anything. Didn’t come to the table to talk to try to save his speakership. So, I mean, what do you want to see done and what what does it matter? Like, what can the Congress not do in this moment because there’s no leadership?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, we want him to have a speakership because the only thing the acting speaker can do is have a speaker’s election. Nothing else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Didn’t take away the office, though. Didn’t they also take away your office?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t care about that. What I care about is taking food out of the mouths of babies. I had a ceremonial office where I had visitors, heads of state, heads of parliaments, and all the rest come through. If I don’t have to do that, I could spend more time on politics. But nonetheless, we won’t go into that. That’s the most important thing we can do, is win the next election absolutely, positively. But yeah, that, that housekeeping stuff, that’s nothing but the but the what is something is that they have to be able to come together and I hope that they will come together, elect their speaker so that we can have the debate, that the American people can see the difference and try to find our common ground, if that’s possible. But we have our major differences. There’s just no question about that. One thing we do, two things we do agree on. One is the assistance to Israel in this terrible situation. And we we’ve had bipartisan, bicameral House and Senate, Democrat and Republican, support for Israel all the time and then, of course, for the Ukraine as well. These are urgent matters. We need a speaker so that we can get that done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> I can understand, you know, you want to wade into the Republican politics, but you have worked with, you know, a number of Republican, right, as Speaker Newt Gingrich, John Boehner, who cried at the opening of the unveiling of your portrait. You know, Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Cried for a lot of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> But so I guess what I’m getting at is there seem to be two, maybe three, if you include McCarthy, because he’s left the door open to coming back. But Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan, founder of the Freedom Caucus, you must have a do you see a difference between them or. McCarthy The three of them, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Especially given Jordan sort of involvement in pushing the big lie about the 2020 election and filing lawsuits to undermine it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, here’s the thing. I’ve been there a long time and I have worked with Republicans and quite frankly, coming from San Francisco, I mean, it’s of all the titles, speaker, leader, whip and all that, nothing is more exciting than to walk on the floor and say, I speak for the people of San Francisco. That’s that’s really exciting. And so we have our. Priorities. And we are the city of Saint Francis and we have our values and the rest. So when you go on the floor, you welcome the vitality of differences of opinion and debate, and hopefully you can find your common ground. And that has always been the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve admired so many of the Republicans that I have worked with in an earlier day, whether it was for the environment, whether it was for human rights, So many issues where we work together and I’m appropriator and or appropriations, it’s very as far as bipartisanship as it could get. And same thing on intelligence, my other committee, a very bipartisan up until a certain point when Newt Gingrich came along, he really he it was a a different day. He would give them things to put in their phone, in their car when they go home saying call them traitors, call them treasonous. This was a that was the crossing the threshold. As bad as he was, these guys just put him in the shade because they it really is a different breed of cat. So the idea that you would go in. I always say to my own constituents, we don’t have 218. San Francisco, we’re trying, but we don’t have to wait in even when we have to. 18 Democrats, there’s differences of opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And again, our founders, our founders, they did this beautiful thing with the democracy. Fortunately, they made our founding document, the Constitution. Amendable so that we could correct some of the compromises that they had to make. But it was about a democracy where you had the differences of opinion and you debated and you didn’t resent a difference of opinion. You welcomed it. Hope to win the debate, at least get a high split on your side for whatever solution there would be there. But nonetheless, win some, lose some, but always respect the people who sent each person there from their own district that I want them to respect my constituents. So. So. But this is very different now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So if you’re looking at a choice between a Representative Scalise and a Representative Jordan from a Democratic perspective, does it matter which one is in charge of the House?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> That’s up to the Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Does it matter to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> That’s up to the Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right, all right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> If I told you who I preferred it wouldn’t help that person. If I told you what I thought of Jim Jordan, that would be awful too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Do you have an unnamed preference? Do you have an unnamed preference?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Hakeem Jeffries. I’m determined he’s going to be speaker as soon as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Let me ask about this impact on Democratic politics. Do you think the chaos happening right now McCarthy is ousting? The infighting among Republicans will help Democrats pick up seats, particularly all those purple districts in California that you guys are targeting?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well in California. Thanks to all of you in California. When I first started to say, people said to me, you should run for leadership. I didn’t have any intent, but actually I didn’t intend to run for Congress. But people said, you have to run. You have to run. Same thing for leadership. We had 26 Democrats and 26 Republicans. And I said I was former chair of the party. I know how to do this. You just give me California. And that night, 2000, we had went from 26, 26 to 31, 21, picked up ten seats in California. And then we grew and we grew. And that was really largely how Democrats took back the House of Representatives. Thank you, California. But we also won in other parts of the country as well. The. We’re not about. Oh, they’re terrible. It’s about what we present to the American people. This is about a vision. Why? Why are we there? We’re there for a better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This president has been great. Joe Biden has been so visionary in how we advance an economy that is from the bottom up and the middle in, not from the trickle down. 83% going to the top 1% in all of our legislation, whether it was a recovery, the rescue package, whether it was a bipartisan infrastructure bill, we had 13 Republican votes, but it was bipartisan. The CHIPS Act, the PACT Act for our veterans, whether it was the I.R.A., the biggest investment in protecting our environment, saving our planet, and the history not only of our country, but of any country. All of it, though, he had with a system of equity, justice, inclusion, so that many more people could have access to the education, to the training, to the apprenticeships, to the decision making as to what infrastructure they would like to see in their communities and their percentages. He had a big percentage that should go to. Completely neighborhood oriented, community oriented decision making in that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this is about a vision of inclusion for our country. It’s about knowledge of the issues that he has been there even longer than I have, much longer than I have. He’s been there, knows the issues. He’s strategic. He’s a legislator, a senator, vice president, a president of United, a vision, knowledge, judgment, strategic thinker. But that’s all up here and in his heart, the most empathetic president you could find. He knows and he cares. And that’s what we have to get across because it makes a difference to our democracy. So this whole class is the backbone of our democracy. I believe the middle class has a union label on it. And and our democratic priorities make it stronger. But nonetheless, this president and our Democratic Congress have a lot to be proud of about. We had a vision. We had a plan. Vision without a plan, a fantasy. Vision with a plan: victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You described the president more or less as a mensch. You described a former speaker with a different M word, moron.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I didn’t say he was a moron. I said what he said was moronic. That was different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you, as somebody who has you are have been called the, you know, the most effective speaker in modern times. You yourself have called yourself a master legislator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you think —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you think the former speaker fell short?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Which one are we talking about? Oh, yeah, the leading one. Well, I think that as I said at the time, it was becoming the incredibly shrinking speakership. The speakership has awesome responsibility and therefore power, but you have to be able to use it in a way that builds consensus so that you have sustainability for what you do. But in order to win the speakership, he gave away so many of his, shall we say, avenues to success, including saying that one person could vacate the chair. And that that was most unfortunate because, well, maybe there were eight. Maybe we said just make it more or make it the speaker, the majority leader or the majority whip or somebody who has brings more heft to it, that that’s just process the other hand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a thought that in our on our side of the aisle, he didn’t keep his word in terms of the president, agreeing with the president on the debt ceiling. This we’re going to proceed in this way. We’re going to build our appropriations bills around this amount. And then he walked away from it. He said, what’s his name was responsible for January 6th, and then he kissed his ring. You know, that kind of stuff. You know, how can you rely on somebody? Because your word is the most important thing that you have in all of that. And situations change. But then you have to acknowledge that. And I think that I say this carefully, but I think that people didn’t trust his word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And that’s it for this edition of Political Breakdown, where a production of KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Our engineers today are Christopher Beal and Jim Bennett. Special thanks as well to the KQED live team, including Ryan Davis and Lance Gardner. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer. We’ll see you next time, everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi joins Scott and Marisa at KQED Live to talk about the Israel-Hamas war and the Republican scramble to find a new speaker of the House of Representatives.\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Hey, everybody. From KQED Public Radio. This is Political Breakdown. I’m Scott Shafer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I’m Marisa Lagos. Today on The Breakdown. House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi joins us here at KQED to talk about everything happening in the world right now, including the war between Hamas and Israel and the problems House Republicans are having electing a new speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, in fact, those problems are continuing. And Marisa, we originally had this conversation with Nancy Pelosi scheduled for Tuesday of this week, and we had to move it to Monday because she had to be back in D.C. And of course, we this was all set up months ago. We had no idea everything that was being happening, including the war between Israel and Hamas. So it was you know, there was so much to talk about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, as somebody who I’m pretty sure never takes a day off, even Pelosi seemed like it had been quite a week or two. Right. I mean, you know, there was obviously Senator Dianne Feinstein’s death, the kind of, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Emotional impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> The outpouring and and all of the things that I think Pelosi wanted to be and felt that she should be out around that the appointment of Lafond, a butler to the Senate and then, as you said, this kind of mess in the House which you know just it was interesting watching her because she’s definitely in her element in a way now that she was not when she was the leader of the Democrats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, she’s like kind of, you know, unshackled in a way. I mean, she she she’s cut loose from having to represent the entire caucus. And now she’s from, quote unquote, liberal San Francisco. She can really speak her mind. Unplugged is the word I was looking for, which she very much is plugged in to everything. And it does. You do wonder like, yes, Hakeem Jeffries is the, you know, the minority leader. But you’ve got to think they’re on the phone quite regularly talking about strategy and you know how to play certain things. And, you know, the caucus came out very united against helping Kevin McCarthy hold on to the speakership. Seven Republicans kind of bailed on him. And, you know, it was interesting to hear her thoughts on why didn’t Democrats help McCarthy. And, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But you say she’s unplugged, but she’s still Pelosi. And like, let’s be clear, you will hear this again and again. Pelosi says what Pelosi wants. Like there is no there are many times where she just sort of like heard our question and kind of came back to it later. But she definitely is very much in sort of charge of her faculties when it comes to talking to the press and knowing when she would and wouldn’t make news, for example, when we pushed her on. Look, you know, at the time it was a real contest between Jim Jordan, who is more of a sort of MAGA extremist Republican, and Scalise, who is also, I think in past years would have been considered a pretty hard right guy, but in these days is more of an establishment Republican. And, you know, I think she made very clear she did not want to weigh in on that, saying why would I help them or hurt them by saying I like them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> As if, you know, saying something nice might actually hurt them, although I think it’s proves pretty clear reading between the lines. She does not think much of Jim Jordan, who founded the Freedom Caucus, but I’m sure she’s not buddies with Scalise, although they are both Italian. So she didn’t bite on that one. But yeah, so, you know, all these things that I guess are going to emerge. And then of course, you know, McCarthy has kind of offered himself up if they can’t, you know, get the votes for either Scalise or Jordan, I can’t really see that happening. But who knows they right now, because clearly, although they you know, Scalise had a plurality of the votes or a majority of the caucus, he’s nowhere near the 218 he needs to win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I mean, I will say to one of the things you also hear, I think Pelosi has really mastered this ability. That’s very rare, I think, for women in politics to both be very confident without sounding sort of braggadocious. And so it would point, you know, you you say you’ve called yourself a master legislator. She’s like, yeah, I have. You know, and then there’s a couple other funny moments like that when, you know, we’ll get to this next week because we actually have a second episode with her out of this. But asking her about the future of her congressional seat, her daughter Christine, who’s rumored to want to run, was sitting in the front row, kind of kind of egging her on the whole time. So, you know, I just think she again, it was clear that she was sort of enjoying some of the politics of what’s going on, not having to be in the driver’s seat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she came dressed in like a lavender pantsuit, looked very comfortable. And so, as you said, we’re going to be hearing in just a moment the first or not not exactly the first half, but half of the interview. And then next week she’ll be talking more about the fans of Butler, the thoughts about that Senate seat, which we still don’t know at this as we speak right here today, whether Lafond, about who’s going to run for the six year full term. We also talked a little bit about Paul Pelosi, her husband, who was with her at the memorial for Senator Feinstein. And, you know, she said a little bit more about him that than she has in the past. And I think they said we’ll hear more of that next week. And then a little revelation. Thanks to Mark Barabak from the L.A. Times. We asked her about her apparent fondness for the Grateful Dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, just color me shocked. If there was a band, I would have thought that Nancy Pelosi would be in and too, it would not have been the Grateful Dead. But she’s been to many concerts, including the allegedly final one, you know, one of many Final Dead concerts she’s referring to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Bobbie, I was like, that’s got to be Bob Weir, she says, Oh, yeah, Bobby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Bobby. Bobby. And, you know, gave a shout out to U2 as well and did clear up a rumor. Apparently Paul Pelosi does not actually do her shopping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was that’s been out there in the ether Ethernet Internet for a long time. But yeah, she does her own shopping. Yeah. So we’re going to hear all of that. And then, as you said, tune in next week for the second part of this conversation. She is, you know, 83 years old, but, you know, very clearly in charge of, you know, the sort of the environment that she excels in, which is the arena.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Brushed them off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, she did, But she said she’s ready to go. All right. We’re going to take a short break. And when we come back, we’re going to hear our conversation with Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Please welcome Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi. All right. Well, what are we going to talk about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What has changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> We know that you and Mayor Breed yesterday, I believe, were at a rally in support of Israel. Obviously, there’s a terrible war that’s underway right now. Hundreds have died on both sides. And we’re wondering, first of all, just since this is at the top of the news, what do you see as the most short term implications of all this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, thank you. It’s wonderful to be with you. Thank you all for being here. Change of date. That’s always well, that’s the life I lead. When we accepted the invitation and so honored to be with all of you, whenever that was, what, two weeks ago or something longer?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Months. Okay, well, just in the last ten days, we lost our dear Diane. The invasion of Israel. So horrible. And, of course, the confusion on the other side of the aisle. This yesterday we were at a temple. It was a big outpouring of support for Israel. Also, I was able to say that Mike Pappas was there, head of interfaith council, and he said that that Christians, Catholics, everyone, every religion was mourning for the Israelis and sending their support. This is something so tragic. You know, there are many injustices in the world, one thing and another. But there is no excuse for the barbaric violence that was we saw happen in Israel. I had a friend whose niece, Grande, whose niece was killed, her husband was killed and the infant baby were killed there. Little children, other little children, they had hid in a closet and they were later rescued. But what the barbaric nature of that, there’s no it’s. Some people say it’s unforgivable. I don’t like to think that anything is unforgivable, but it’s very close to unforgivable that that would that that would happen. So when you say where do we go from here? We always have to see everything as an opportunity to see how we can bring people together. This is really hard. And we’re hard because we don’t. We’ll see what happens in the end. The violence that appears to be continuing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> When you say it’s hard, what do you mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, when human life is taken in a way. Now, again, are there countries that are at war? I have I feel the same way about Putin in Ukraine, kidnaping children, killing and raping women. I don’t know if the rape is happening in Israel, but that’s what’s happening in Ukraine. There’s no that’s using. Violence against civilians as a weapon of war. Don’t be a coward. You won’t go for war. Fight militarily. That’s not something we love. But don’t take it out on the children, the moms, the families here, they kidnap. You can see them kidnaping little children. 80 year old grandmoms. All the rest. So it’s it’s very hard. To overcome that kind of loss in your family and your community and in your country. But let us pray. Let us pray that some good can come of it. They were observing the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, and people said that some good things that was not a good thing, a war. But actually, there was a path to some. Better situation following that. Maybe something will come here, but it’s very hard to see and it will take a while, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Do you think? I mean, we’ve seen President Biden call this Israeli government the most extreme ever, President Netanyahu. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been, you know, working on dismantling the court and I think, you know, isolating the settlements. I want, you know, the Gaza Strip. Does all of that complicate the way that you and others in Washington can respond to this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> No, I mean, I’m not a big fan of the current government of of Israel. And all that you say is of concern, but none of it. None of it makes any difference when when military force comes in and starts killing civilians and kidnaping and the rest. So I don’t see any relationship between the two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Do you think that we’re hearing tonight that there may be a move to link Ukraine aid and Israeli aid and Congress? What do you think about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, I think that we have to do both. So I’m okay with linking it, but we don’t really even have a functioning House of Representatives and hopefully when we do, that will be facilitated. But the there is strong support for Ukraine aid in the Congress of the United States, bipartisan House and Senate. There’s strong support for Israeli assistance to Israel. One of the issues that we’re all facing is the fate of Americans in Israel. Some are visitors, some are by Israeli America. They have dual citizenship. All of them are of concern to us, not any more than any other Israeli. But nonetheless, that’s our responsibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, let’s shift to what’s happening in Washington and or not happening. I know you’re as we said, you’re going back tomorrow. There’s one way or the other. There will eventually be a speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> How are you and your caucus thinking about that vote?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, just so you know, I mean, I think it’s important to note because the things people say, I think, no, that’s not how it works. You have an election. Somebody wins. The party that wins, selects, nominates and chooses the Speaker of the House. So when I see on TV, they say the Democrats and eight Republicans took down the speaker. No Republicans took down their speaker. That I met when I all the times I was elected leader or speaker for 20 years. I never had one Republican vote, nor would it have been appropriate. It’s up to the party to elect its leaders, whether it’s the speaker or the leader. It’s up to the party. So I haven’t the I would be the last person to act ask about what’s going on in the Republican caucus or second last. But right up there. Right up there. And I just hope and pray that they can come to their own unity. But it is it’s very difficult because people said, well, why didn’t you all vote for them and this or that? We said, well, if that isn’t our role, it’s up to them to select.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As I said, now we have our major differences. For example, right now we’re having a fight with them about they want to cut 30% from the food for which women, infant children for for food, for food. Out of the mouths of babes are, what, 80%, 70 to 80% for low income heating. Assistance for mostly poor seniors in our country. The list goes on and on about the things that they want to cut on. They have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, all of that on the table. Why? Because they’re concerned about the budget. They’re concerned about feeding babies. But they weren’t concerned when they get a $2 trillion tax cut to the richest people in America. And it was. But with interest to the national debt, $2 trillion, 83% of it went to the top 1%, not creating any vitality in our. But they didn’t worry about the national debt or the budget then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, what I’m hearing you say is that this is not Democrats responsibility. And it seems, from what we’ve heard, that speaker, former Speaker McCarthy, didn’t offer Democrats anything. Didn’t come to the table to talk to try to save his speakership. So, I mean, what do you want to see done and what what does it matter? Like, what can the Congress not do in this moment because there’s no leadership?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well, we want him to have a speakership because the only thing the acting speaker can do is have a speaker’s election. Nothing else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Didn’t take away the office, though. Didn’t they also take away your office?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I don’t care about that. What I care about is taking food out of the mouths of babies. I had a ceremonial office where I had visitors, heads of state, heads of parliaments, and all the rest come through. If I don’t have to do that, I could spend more time on politics. But nonetheless, we won’t go into that. That’s the most important thing we can do, is win the next election absolutely, positively. But yeah, that, that housekeeping stuff, that’s nothing but the but the what is something is that they have to be able to come together and I hope that they will come together, elect their speaker so that we can have the debate, that the American people can see the difference and try to find our common ground, if that’s possible. But we have our major differences. There’s just no question about that. One thing we do, two things we do agree on. One is the assistance to Israel in this terrible situation. And we we’ve had bipartisan, bicameral House and Senate, Democrat and Republican, support for Israel all the time and then, of course, for the Ukraine as well. These are urgent matters. We need a speaker so that we can get that done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> I can understand, you know, you want to wade into the Republican politics, but you have worked with, you know, a number of Republican, right, as Speaker Newt Gingrich, John Boehner, who cried at the opening of the unveiling of your portrait. You know, Ryan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Cried for a lot of reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> But so I guess what I’m getting at is there seem to be two, maybe three, if you include McCarthy, because he’s left the door open to coming back. But Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan, founder of the Freedom Caucus, you must have a do you see a difference between them or. McCarthy The three of them, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Especially given Jordan sort of involvement in pushing the big lie about the 2020 election and filing lawsuits to undermine it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, here’s the thing. I’ve been there a long time and I have worked with Republicans and quite frankly, coming from San Francisco, I mean, it’s of all the titles, speaker, leader, whip and all that, nothing is more exciting than to walk on the floor and say, I speak for the people of San Francisco. That’s that’s really exciting. And so we have our. Priorities. And we are the city of Saint Francis and we have our values and the rest. So when you go on the floor, you welcome the vitality of differences of opinion and debate, and hopefully you can find your common ground. And that has always been the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’ve admired so many of the Republicans that I have worked with in an earlier day, whether it was for the environment, whether it was for human rights, So many issues where we work together and I’m appropriator and or appropriations, it’s very as far as bipartisanship as it could get. And same thing on intelligence, my other committee, a very bipartisan up until a certain point when Newt Gingrich came along, he really he it was a a different day. He would give them things to put in their phone, in their car when they go home saying call them traitors, call them treasonous. This was a that was the crossing the threshold. As bad as he was, these guys just put him in the shade because they it really is a different breed of cat. So the idea that you would go in. I always say to my own constituents, we don’t have 218. San Francisco, we’re trying, but we don’t have to wait in even when we have to. 18 Democrats, there’s differences of opinion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And again, our founders, our founders, they did this beautiful thing with the democracy. Fortunately, they made our founding document, the Constitution. Amendable so that we could correct some of the compromises that they had to make. But it was about a democracy where you had the differences of opinion and you debated and you didn’t resent a difference of opinion. You welcomed it. Hope to win the debate, at least get a high split on your side for whatever solution there would be there. But nonetheless, win some, lose some, but always respect the people who sent each person there from their own district that I want them to respect my constituents. So. So. But this is very different now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So if you’re looking at a choice between a Representative Scalise and a Representative Jordan from a Democratic perspective, does it matter which one is in charge of the House?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> That’s up to the Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Does it matter to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> That’s up to the Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right, all right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> If I told you who I preferred it wouldn’t help that person. If I told you what I thought of Jim Jordan, that would be awful too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Do you have an unnamed preference? Do you have an unnamed preference?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Hakeem Jeffries. I’m determined he’s going to be speaker as soon as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Let me ask about this impact on Democratic politics. Do you think the chaos happening right now McCarthy is ousting? The infighting among Republicans will help Democrats pick up seats, particularly all those purple districts in California that you guys are targeting?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Well in California. Thanks to all of you in California. When I first started to say, people said to me, you should run for leadership. I didn’t have any intent, but actually I didn’t intend to run for Congress. But people said, you have to run. You have to run. Same thing for leadership. We had 26 Democrats and 26 Republicans. And I said I was former chair of the party. I know how to do this. You just give me California. And that night, 2000, we had went from 26, 26 to 31, 21, picked up ten seats in California. And then we grew and we grew. And that was really largely how Democrats took back the House of Representatives. Thank you, California. But we also won in other parts of the country as well. The. We’re not about. Oh, they’re terrible. It’s about what we present to the American people. This is about a vision. Why? Why are we there? We’re there for a better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This president has been great. Joe Biden has been so visionary in how we advance an economy that is from the bottom up and the middle in, not from the trickle down. 83% going to the top 1% in all of our legislation, whether it was a recovery, the rescue package, whether it was a bipartisan infrastructure bill, we had 13 Republican votes, but it was bipartisan. The CHIPS Act, the PACT Act for our veterans, whether it was the I.R.A., the biggest investment in protecting our environment, saving our planet, and the history not only of our country, but of any country. All of it, though, he had with a system of equity, justice, inclusion, so that many more people could have access to the education, to the training, to the apprenticeships, to the decision making as to what infrastructure they would like to see in their communities and their percentages. He had a big percentage that should go to. Completely neighborhood oriented, community oriented decision making in that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this is about a vision of inclusion for our country. It’s about knowledge of the issues that he has been there even longer than I have, much longer than I have. He’s been there, knows the issues. He’s strategic. He’s a legislator, a senator, vice president, a president of United, a vision, knowledge, judgment, strategic thinker. But that’s all up here and in his heart, the most empathetic president you could find. He knows and he cares. And that’s what we have to get across because it makes a difference to our democracy. So this whole class is the backbone of our democracy. I believe the middle class has a union label on it. And and our democratic priorities make it stronger. But nonetheless, this president and our Democratic Congress have a lot to be proud of about. We had a vision. We had a plan. Vision without a plan, a fantasy. Vision with a plan: victory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You described the president more or less as a mensch. You described a former speaker with a different M word, moron.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I didn’t say he was a moron. I said what he said was moronic. That was different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you, as somebody who has you are have been called the, you know, the most effective speaker in modern times. You yourself have called yourself a master legislator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you think —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Where do you think the former speaker fell short?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> Which one are we talking about? Oh, yeah, the leading one. Well, I think that as I said at the time, it was becoming the incredibly shrinking speakership. The speakership has awesome responsibility and therefore power, but you have to be able to use it in a way that builds consensus so that you have sustainability for what you do. But in order to win the speakership, he gave away so many of his, shall we say, avenues to success, including saying that one person could vacate the chair. And that that was most unfortunate because, well, maybe there were eight. Maybe we said just make it more or make it the speaker, the majority leader or the majority whip or somebody who has brings more heft to it, that that’s just process the other hand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a thought that in our on our side of the aisle, he didn’t keep his word in terms of the president, agreeing with the president on the debt ceiling. This we’re going to proceed in this way. We’re going to build our appropriations bills around this amount. And then he walked away from it. He said, what’s his name was responsible for January 6th, and then he kissed his ring. You know, that kind of stuff. You know, how can you rely on somebody? Because your word is the most important thing that you have in all of that. And situations change. But then you have to acknowledge that. And I think that I say this carefully, but I think that people didn’t trust his word.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And that’s it for this edition of Political Breakdown, where a production of KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Our engineers today are Christopher Beal and Jim Bennett. Special thanks as well to the KQED live team, including Ryan Davis and Lance Gardner. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer. We’ll see you next time, everybody.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>House Republicans are struggling to unite amid fractional infighting that led to a historic vote to oust Rep. Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the House last week. Just days before a possible vote to replace him, House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi told KQED Political Breakdown hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos why she thought McCarthy was toppled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her experience, a successful speakership means cultivating consensus. Instead, McCarthy built his power on shaky ground, having reneged on promises to Democrats, who could have saved him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I say this carefully, but I think people didn’t trust his word,” Pelosi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a wide-ranging interview in San Francisco Monday night, Pelosi touted U.S. support for Israel as the war intensifies against Hamas. She also responded to the recent appointment of Sen. Laphonza Butler, and gave an update on the health of her husband, Paul Pelosi, after a man allegedly broke into their home and attacked him with a hammer last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last week, House Democrats could have voted to save McCarthy. But they had no reason to trust him, Pelosi told KQED, nor was it their job to save him from the infighting in his own party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Republicans took down their speaker,” Pelosi said. And when she herself was voted in as speaker, “I never had one Republican vote, nor would it have been appropriate.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5g3kS53RZc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When asked if she supported either of the two leading conservatives for speaker of the House, Reps. Jim Jordan or Steve Scalise, Pelosi pushed back on the premise of the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s up to the Republicans,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of interim Speaker Patrick McHenry’s first acts was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/04/1203566052/pelosi-office-patrick-mchenry-speaker\">to evict Pelosi from her hideaway office at the Capitol\u003c/a>, which is often a courtesy space afforded to past House speakers. Pelosi said she didn’t care about that — she’s far more concerned with practical matters, like Republican efforts to cut funds that put food on people’s plates.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Laphonza Butler\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Laphonza Butler, a former labor leader and Democratic strategist, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963215/laphonza-butler-senate-appointment-draws-praise-speculation-over-2024-plans\">sworn in as California’s new U.S. senator\u003c/a> last week to serve the remainder of a term left open by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963548/political-leaders-memorialize-dianne-feinstein-at-sf-city-hall\">death of Sen. Dianne Feinstein\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shafer pressed Pelosi on Butler’s appointment and whether she should run for a full term, particularly in light of Pelosi’s endorsement of Rep. Adam Schiff, who is running for Feinstein’s seat along with Reps. Barbara Lee and Katie Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She’s wonderful,” Pelosi said of Butler. “She’s up to the task. She’s talented, and values based, and knowledgeable, and respected and the rest. So she’ll do a great job. And if she decides to run, she decides to run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, Pelosi added, “I’m for Adam.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqednews/video/7288183186406804779\" data-video-id=\"7288183186406804779\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@kqednews\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqednews?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@kqednews\u003c/a>What does Nancy Pelosi think of Laphonza Butler?\n\u003cp>\u003ca title=\"♬ original sound - KQED\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/original-sound-7288183219022121771?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ original sound – KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>[tiktok]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>On Paul Pelosi’s health\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pelosi also gave an update on the health of her husband Paul as he recovers from an attack by David DePape, who allegedly broke into their home in October last year threatening to kidnap the former speaker, before bludgeoning her husband’s skull with a hammer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Paul is making rapid progress. Probably about 80% back, and he’s doing what he needs to do in terms of therapy and the rest,” Pelosi said, Monday. “Hopefully by Christmas or New Year, he’ll be OK.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi said her husband isn’t a political person. DePape, she said, “came looking for me, and Paul paid the price.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s federal trial is set to begin in San Francisco in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Reelection\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The former House Speaker announced last month that she’d run for another two-year congressional term in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why’s she staying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi touted her experience as one of the most knowledgeable lawmakers in Congress, even among otherwise “brilliant” people. And called herself “masterful as a legislator.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi previously said she wants to stay in Congress to help San Francisco recover from its multitude of crises, from homelessness to the pandemic to the fentanyl epidemic, and to thwart the reelection of former President Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At 83, Pelosi is part of a generation of high-profile politicians who are under scrutiny for continuing to serve in office despite their age, including Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, 81, and President Joe Biden, 80.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11963964\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11963964\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three people sit on a stage together on red chairs.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi speaks with KQED’s Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos on Oct. 9, 2023. \u003ccite>(Alain McLaughlin for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In a nod to that critique, Pelosi added, “I eat a lot of chocolate, so I don’t ever feel tired or anything like that. Or old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11960431/pelosi-announces-2024-reelection-bid-as-democrats-to-fight-to-win-back-house?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=20230911%20Political%20Breakdown&mc_key=5462347\">KQED has covered previously\u003c/a>, Pelosi’s commitment to reelection will delay the electoral hopes of Democratic hopefuls down the ticket, including state Sen. Scott Wiener, who had hoped to run for her seat.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>On Hamas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pelosi condemned Hamas for killing hundreds of Israeli citizens this past weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s using violence against civilians as a weapon of war. Don’t be a coward. You want to go for war? Fight militarily,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, “you can see them kidnapping little children, 80-year-old grand-moms.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi’s remarks come in the wake of a renewed war between Israel and Hamas as the death toll tops 1,600, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-hostages-4377e096f62bf535bebcdff38cf16049\">according to The Associated Press\u003c/a>. More than 900 people have been killed in Israel since the surprise attack Saturday, when Hamas fighters infiltrated Israeli homes and took more than 100 people hostage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204639253/israel-gaza-hamas-us-citizens-killed\">reportedly\u003c/a> called it “by far the worst day in Israeli history.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Israel responded with deadly missile attacks on the Gaza Strip, where at least 680 people have reportedly been killed and thousands injured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, hundreds marched over the weekend in support of Palestinian refugees and to demand the United States end military aid to Israel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://twitter.com/TeamPelosi/status/1711178602140794963\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at San Francisco’s Congregation Sherith Israel on Sunday morning, during the Simchat Torah holiday, Pelosi voiced her support for Israel “personally, politically, officially, diplomatically, militarily, in every way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>House Republicans are struggling to unite amid fractional infighting that led to a historic vote to oust Rep. Kevin McCarthy as speaker of the House last week. Just days before a possible vote to replace him, House Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi told KQED Political Breakdown hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos why she thought McCarthy was toppled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her experience, a successful speakership means cultivating consensus. Instead, McCarthy built his power on shaky ground, having reneged on promises to Democrats, who could have saved him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I say this carefully, but I think people didn’t trust his word,” Pelosi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a wide-ranging interview in San Francisco Monday night, Pelosi touted U.S. support for Israel as the war intensifies against Hamas. She also responded to the recent appointment of Sen. Laphonza Butler, and gave an update on the health of her husband, Paul Pelosi, after a man allegedly broke into their home and attacked him with a hammer last year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last week, House Democrats could have voted to save McCarthy. But they had no reason to trust him, Pelosi told KQED, nor was it their job to save him from the infighting in his own party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Republicans took down their speaker,” Pelosi said. And when she herself was voted in as speaker, “I never had one Republican vote, nor would it have been appropriate.”\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/N5g3kS53RZc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/N5g3kS53RZc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>When asked if she supported either of the two leading conservatives for speaker of the House, Reps. Jim Jordan or Steve Scalise, Pelosi pushed back on the premise of the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s up to the Republicans,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of interim Speaker Patrick McHenry’s first acts was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/04/1203566052/pelosi-office-patrick-mchenry-speaker\">to evict Pelosi from her hideaway office at the Capitol\u003c/a>, which is often a courtesy space afforded to past House speakers. Pelosi said she didn’t care about that — she’s far more concerned with practical matters, like Republican efforts to cut funds that put food on people’s plates.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Laphonza Butler\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Laphonza Butler, a former labor leader and Democratic strategist, was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963215/laphonza-butler-senate-appointment-draws-praise-speculation-over-2024-plans\">sworn in as California’s new U.S. senator\u003c/a> last week to serve the remainder of a term left open by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963548/political-leaders-memorialize-dianne-feinstein-at-sf-city-hall\">death of Sen. Dianne Feinstein\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shafer pressed Pelosi on Butler’s appointment and whether she should run for a full term, particularly in light of Pelosi’s endorsement of Rep. Adam Schiff, who is running for Feinstein’s seat along with Reps. Barbara Lee and Katie Porter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She’s wonderful,” Pelosi said of Butler. “She’s up to the task. She’s talented, and values based, and knowledgeable, and respected and the rest. So she’ll do a great job. And if she decides to run, she decides to run.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, Pelosi added, “I’m for Adam.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote class=\"tiktok-embed\" style=\"max-width: 605px;min-width: 325px\" cite=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqednews/video/7288183186406804779\" data-video-id=\"7288183186406804779\">\n\u003csection>\u003ca title=\"@kqednews\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqednews?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">@kqednews\u003c/a>What does Nancy Pelosi think of Laphonza Butler?\n\u003cp>\u003ca title=\"♬ original sound - KQED\" href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/music/original-sound-7288183219022121771?refer=embed\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">♬ original sound – KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>On Paul Pelosi’s health\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pelosi also gave an update on the health of her husband Paul as he recovers from an attack by David DePape, who allegedly broke into their home in October last year threatening to kidnap the former speaker, before bludgeoning her husband’s skull with a hammer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Paul is making rapid progress. Probably about 80% back, and he’s doing what he needs to do in terms of therapy and the rest,” Pelosi said, Monday. “Hopefully by Christmas or New Year, he’ll be OK.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi said her husband isn’t a political person. DePape, she said, “came looking for me, and Paul paid the price.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s federal trial is set to begin in San Francisco in November.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Reelection\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The former House Speaker announced last month that she’d run for another two-year congressional term in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why’s she staying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi touted her experience as one of the most knowledgeable lawmakers in Congress, even among otherwise “brilliant” people. And called herself “masterful as a legislator.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi previously said she wants to stay in Congress to help San Francisco recover from its multitude of crises, from homelessness to the pandemic to the fentanyl epidemic, and to thwart the reelection of former President Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At 83, Pelosi is part of a generation of high-profile politicians who are under scrutiny for continuing to serve in office despite their age, including Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, 81, and President Joe Biden, 80.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11963964\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11963964\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three people sit on a stage together on red chairs.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/10/KQEDLIVE23PBnPelosi-107-KQED-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi speaks with KQED’s Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos on Oct. 9, 2023. \u003ccite>(Alain McLaughlin for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In a nod to that critique, Pelosi added, “I eat a lot of chocolate, so I don’t ever feel tired or anything like that. Or old.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11960431/pelosi-announces-2024-reelection-bid-as-democrats-to-fight-to-win-back-house?utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign=20230911%20Political%20Breakdown&mc_key=5462347\">KQED has covered previously\u003c/a>, Pelosi’s commitment to reelection will delay the electoral hopes of Democratic hopefuls down the ticket, including state Sen. Scott Wiener, who had hoped to run for her seat.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>On Hamas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pelosi condemned Hamas for killing hundreds of Israeli citizens this past weekend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s using violence against civilians as a weapon of war. Don’t be a coward. You want to go for war? Fight militarily,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, “you can see them kidnapping little children, 80-year-old grand-moms.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi’s remarks come in the wake of a renewed war between Israel and Hamas as the death toll tops 1,600, \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-airstrikes-hostages-4377e096f62bf535bebcdff38cf16049\">according to The Associated Press\u003c/a>. More than 900 people have been killed in Israel since the surprise attack Saturday, when Hamas fighters infiltrated Israeli homes and took more than 100 people hostage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Israel Defense Forces spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204639253/israel-gaza-hamas-us-citizens-killed\">reportedly\u003c/a> called it “by far the worst day in Israeli history.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Israel responded with deadly missile attacks on the Gaza Strip, where at least 680 people have reportedly been killed and thousands injured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In San Francisco, hundreds marched over the weekend in support of Palestinian refugees and to demand the United States end military aid to Israel.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>And at San Francisco’s Congregation Sherith Israel on Sunday morning, during the Simchat Torah holiday, Pelosi voiced her support for Israel “personally, politically, officially, diplomatically, militarily, in every way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Remembering Feinstein and California's Senate Question",
"headTitle": "Remembering Feinstein and California’s Senate Question | KQED",
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marisa and Scott recap Dianne Feinstein’s memorial service and hear Nancy Pelosi’s memories of the former mayor and senator. Guy Marzorati joins to discuss Feinstein’s legacy, California’s new Senator Laphonza Butler and the choice facing Butler over whether to run for a full term.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, everyone. From KQED Public Radio, this is Political Breakdown. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer, and today on the Breakdown: recapping a whirlwind week in California politics. We’ll reflect on the legacy of Senator Dianne Feinstein after her memorial service Thursday at San Francisco City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And we’ll talk about the woman appointed to succeed Feinstein, Laphonza Butler, and the biggest question in California politics, will Butler run for a full term in the Senate? Joining us to talk all about this is the indispensable third member of our Political Breakdown team, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> What a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What a week, I’m done, can we call mercy now on the political news? Well, today we all just got back. Scott and I were there at the public memorial service for Senator Feinstein, where Vice President Kamala Harris, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Mayor London Breed and Feinstein’s granddaughter all spoke along with Chuck Schumer, leader of the Senate. But I mean, that’s one of the things that struck me was like looking at that stage full of women, right. Who all are incredibly powerful and thinking back on Feinstein. And Scott, on Wednesday, you were there as her body lay in state at city hall. I know there was a lot of just normal members of the public there and some dignitaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was. The city hall opened at around nine and I was over there bright and early. And Speaker Pelosi, Speaker Emerita Pelosi got there about one word about 9:00. And she came and met with Catherine Feinstein, the late senator’s daughter, and she was very choked up. I have to say, I went to talk to her before she goes, let’s wait until I sign the condolence book and go in and see the coffin and pay my respects, say a prayer. She was very, you know, close to Dianne Feinstein. It was very emotional for her. She had flown on the president’s plane, Air Force One, with the senator’s body and Catherine Feinstein. So it was all very, very emotional. Afterwards, we did get a chance to talk about what the senator meant to her and to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I was thinking of the words during the night about how gentle she was, but how strategic she was. And so, she knew her purpose and she would not be, she did things on her own terms, but she always did them with gentleness. She loved flowers. She loved to grow them. She loved to paint them. She loved to show them off. And so she had she was very, very special person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There are people who don’t remember her as mayor because they’re too young or they just moved here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> They weren’t even born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> What are your thoughts? Like what should what should people know about her tenure as mayor and what she left behind?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What they should know about her is that as mayor of the city, she came in under the most gruesome circumstances, and yet she gave comfort and strength to the city at that difficult time. But the story I love to tell is that when we wanted to, I was chair of the California party, we wanted to have the Democratic convention come to San Francisco. So we went to see her and she said, ‘Well, I can’t do that if it takes any resources away from Laguna Honda.’ She was always thinking about those in most need, and we said, no, that it wouldn’t do that. But let us prove that to you. As you know, the stories of her just giving mouth to mouth resuscitation to somebody on the street that she didn’t even know. But that’s what she was. She was generous, generous, completely generous. So, again, she and I were not on the same place on the political spectrum. So we had our fun with it all. But from a personal standpoint, my family loved her. We were neighbors, we were friends and my daughter, Nancy. We always tease and said, if Diane and I were running against each other, we were sure Nancy Carinne would vote for Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What great tape, Scott. You know, I think the former speaker talked there about her living on her own terms, dying on her own terms. She voted the day that she passed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> To keep the government running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> To keep the government open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Walked onto the Senate floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Walked on and we were talking to one of her staff members today who said, you know, she was frail and she did need a wheelchair to get around. But she insisted that we would wheel her up to the door and she would walk into that chamber by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I thought Pelosi, out of the speakers today at the memorial, was the most personal of all the elected officials. I mean, she even mentioned to you, Scott, they they had their political differences. They weren’t the same kind of Democrats, something like the Iraq war. You look at different votes that they had. But she had a personal connection to Feinstein that I don’t think maybe many of the others on stage did. She talked about her own, you know, daughter in that tape with you. Her daughter Nancy, took care of Feinstein kind of towards the very end of her life in Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think, you know, the just the fact that she could look out the window of her house and see the hydrangeas in Senator Feinstein’s garden, you know, they obviously were you know, they were neighbors. They were friends. They were, you know, kind of quasi-family. They were political family at the very least. And, you know, one of the other things I liked about the speeches today was her granddaughter, the late senator’s granddaughter, who really spoke about a softer, gentler side of her grandmother, you know, playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Playing hide and seek, which I’m trying to imagine—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Oh yeah, it was the stories that I think a politician running nowadays would want to lean into in their public persona. But the very kind of thing Feinstein was always reluctant to reveal about herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Right, and you know, the book that Jerry Roberts, former Chronicle reporter, the bio of her, was called Never Let Them See You Cry, because she was always strong on the outside. And yeah, to hear the stories about picking flowers in the garden and then painting them and, you know, learning how to play chess from her grandmother and all that stuff. It was really I thought it really rounded out the view we have of Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, but there’s a reason she didn’t want people to see her cry. And it’s because that she came up in a time where that was not I mean, she was sitting in seats that women weren’t supposed to be in to begin with, Right. Starting from going to Stanford in the 50s up through even being elected on the school board. I mean, you know, we’ve heard the story of her meeting Willie Brown because she was out there with, you know, Catherine Feinstein, her daughter, in a stroller, helping protest against racist housing policies that were keeping black families like Willie Brown’s out of certain San Francisco neighborhoods. At the same time, she was a single mom at that point. Right. And, you know, the other thing that I felt was very personal was Mayor London Breed talking about her today. Breed mentioned that she was born in the 1970s and you know, really came up not knowing a world without Dianne Feinstein as the mayor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>London Breed:\u003c/strong> None of the things that she told me as an adult were ever as important. As what she showed us as children. Through times of tragedy and triumph, Dianne Feinstein showed us the meaning of San Francisco’s motto Gold in Peace, Iron in War. She showed us a world where women lead, where we lift each other up so that girls like me could follow in her footsteps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was such a powerful statement. And I think, you know, that also goes to who London Breed is, you know, the strength and the power of her own biography and growing up in San Francisco when she did and how she did. But, you know, it occurs to me, listening to that, that all you know, we talked about the political differences that Feinstein had with Pelosi. She certainly had them with Breed and with Kamala Harris too, the vice president. I mean, Well, you know, obviously, she spoke today as well. And I think we all remember that time when right after Kamala became D.A. and there was a police officer shot and killed. And she immediately said, you know, we’re not going to seek the death penalty. And Feinstein called her out at the funeral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In a room full of police officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Roomful of police officers, they cheered. And, you know, that was and that was we’ve talked about it, you know, a pivotal moment for Kamala. So, yeah, Dianne was you know, she was, Dianne Feinstein had a particular lane in politics and it was a little bit to the right of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But you did hear today that she didn’t make it personal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. No, I think that’s true. And I think even, you know, Chuck Schumer talked about her ability to reach across the aisle on something like the assault weapons ban, but that carried forward in a lot of different policy areas. I mean, we talked about water. She was just as likely to work with Republicans in the Central Valley. In fact, Kevin McCarthy was someone that she worked with on water bills in the past. So I think that was certainly her kind of political style. I remember when you both sat down with her in 2018, the last time that she was running for reelection, she was really resistant to this idea of political styles. She didn’t want to be talked about as, Oh, I have a different style as Kamala —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She didn’t want to be compared. I think she felt like the media was trying to pit two women against each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think to her there wasn’t another style. This was the way in which you were supposed to act in the U.S. Senate. And this is, you know, the way that she viewed things had to be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think generationally she was just not of the digital generation. You know, she wasn’t you know, she didn’t have any … Facebooking and Tweeting, her staff did that for her. And I think she she didn’t appreciate the really the quick, she was a workhorse, you know, And I think she you know, Kamala Harris told the story today when she became sent to the you know, elected to the Senate, Feinstein handed her a glass of chardonnay wine and a binder full of her bills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> California chardonnay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> California chardonnay, yeah she was just really, her nose to the grindstone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, Harris used a quote today, she said she was about results, not rhetoric. And I think in large part that’s why Feinstein, in her later years, was really drifting away from where not only the Democratic Party was, but just where politics are today. I think, you know, we talk about this moment where the school kids came into her office and asked her to please support the Green New Deal. And, you know, she just it was like she couldn’t believe that they had the temerity to walk into a sitting senator’s office. And I think and the you know, as you said, the digital age of politics was kind of lost on her. But kind of the pugilistic age that we’re in right now was lost on her as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She was always trying to find common ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well and Chuck Schumer talked about this and I think other speakers, too, which is like she did her homework. She was a workhorse in the best sense of the word, that she wouldn’t just sort of speak out of turn. She would say, let me go read on that. And she actually would, which I don’t know, I don’t want to throw cast any aspersions here, but looking at what’s happened in the House of Representatives this week, I don’t know that all those people are like reading the the bill before they vote on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I do want to say, though, you know, I mentioned at the top that it was and I think you heard this in the mayor’s comments about what it felt like to grow up then. I mean, Nancy Pelosi, I think, made a joke about, you know, the fact that there’s little girls who said, oh, men can be a mayor, too? Right. But it was also very fitting to have this ceremony on the steps of city hall at the building where really her fate was sort of written in 1978 after the horrific murders of Mayor George Moscone and Harvey Milk. And, you know, looking back at everything this week as somebody who wasn’t here at the time, it’s just wild to think. I mean, just two weeks before that, over 900 people had died at the Jonestown massacre, including Congressman Leo Ryan, who was murdered basically a, you know, hit job by the leader of that cult. Her for her second husband, Bert Feinstein, had passed away earlier that year. And when we talked to her a few years ago, she said, you know, she had planned on stepping down from politics. And we asked her about that moment coming out and announcing to the world that another supervisor had murdered them. And this is what she talked about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dianne Feinstein:\u003c/strong> What happens to me is everything else blocks out except what I am doing and what I need to do. So it’s a phenomenon. I can’t explain what happens, but I can just perform. I can just keep going. And it’s not by will. I know that. But it happens that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So powerful to hear her talk about, you know, something that you can tell decades later still felt traumatic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And Chuck Schumer today made a similar allusion to her when she was up in Lake Tahoe for one of her Tahoe summits and fractured her ankle and yet refused to seek medical help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She had a job to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She had a job to do. You know, she went through with the summit and, you know, later on got the attention that she needed. But she was tough, you know, And, you know, being like, as you said today, Guy earlier, forged in tragedy. That was actually the phrase in the TV commercial that they used when she was running for governor in 1990. And I think that I think that is part of what, how this outpouring of affection and appreciation for her that we’ve seen this week is that moment, you know, when she stood up and brought the city together, it was coming apart at the seams. And I think no one really knew what was next. You know, this is also an assassination by a former member of the board of supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Who she had been mentoring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, friends with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah and I think you hear that steadfastness in a quote like that from Feinstein and you realize, like why it ended like it did for her in the Senate. Like she was not someone who was going to have a life after public service or a life after politics. And I think she didn’t. It was kind of those blinders that she’s almost describing that I think ended up in a situation where the last few years of her life in the Senate were, you know, full of questions about her service and whether she’s hanging on too long. And I think it speaks to kind of the way she pursued public life and public service that led to this scenario where really towards the end, I think in a large part, played into a part of her legacy that’s going to be there, right? This last term was one of really absence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, though, because I think that, you know, in the last two years have been so difficult for her, you know, physically, mentally and a lot of criticism for not letting go sooner. And yet this week, we’ve really heard very little of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> You know, I think it’s almost like we folks got it out of the way, right? There’s the last two years have been nothing but bad news for her that I think is kind of opened the door to now, to recall —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> To recall the last four, five decades of her service and to recall the recall for five decades of her service and to think about I mean, you know, I don’t want to rush through all this, but we are going to have to take a break soon. But the things that she accomplished, not just as mayor, sort of righting the ship in this city. And, you know, not everybody agrees with her policies then, but I think there was a sense that she was a steadying force. But then also getting to the Senate and, you know, being only one of a handful of women in there and taking on gun control, the assault rifle weapons ban, you know, a decade or two later taking on the CIA with her torture report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and, you know, and what that was about really was accountability, holding the CIA accountable. And I think what, you know, we’re in this moment now are San Francisco is, you know, being, you know, criticized all over the place on Fox News and elsewhere for the situation on the streets, exaggerated in some ways. And I think people hearken back maybe to the time she was mayor. She did hold people accountable. Department heads, she expected results. And I think that’s what people are looking for is like we’re spending all this money, what are we getting? And that was the kind of question she would ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She continued, like until the end of her life —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There’s a mattress on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Holding everyone accountable. She would make that phone call, she would apparently at SFO, all of the workers there wanted to know which side of the plane she was coming in on so they can make sure the runway looked nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So they could go on the other side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, just push it over there. But I mean, it is. And I think it really does stand in contrast to the type of politics that we see now, especially with the former president and the rhetoric we’re seeing from him. She really deeply respected not just the institution of the Senate, but our government and our democracy. And yeah, it’s a huge loss and a life incredibly lived. Okay, we will take a short break. When we come back, we’ll look ahead to talk about California’s new senator, Laphonza Butler. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to Political Breakdown here with the politics dream team, Guy Marzorati and Scott Shafer and now we are going to talk about what is next for California, we have a new senator. But Guy I thought we could go back and remember why Gavin Newsom, our governor, was in kind of a pickle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Kind of boxed himself in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Tell us about the genesis of this appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah I mean, so this goes back to 2021 when Newsom was facing a recall in the early part of the year and made this pledge on the heels of having appointed Alex Padilla to fill Kamala Harris’ Senate seat that he would appoint a black woman should Feinstein’s seat open up. And it got it was controversial in the short term for people saying, well, you shouldn’t be jumping to any conclusions about DiFi. But in the you know, year since, it’s it has kind of box demand and it really culminated in this appearance on Meet the Press a couple of weeks ago where he was talking to Chuck Todd about this potential appointment. And he used the phrase interim appointment. And Chuck Todd followed up by saying, you know, you would not appoint anyone. And Newsom finished the sentence saying that would run again. And so somehow, in the weeks since, Newsom changed his mind and we can talk about maybe what played into that. But even before he announced Butler’s pick on Sunday, his office had already signaled whoever the name that comes out was going to be. They don’t have to make any promise as far as not running in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think the anger that was generated in 2021, you know, he appointed Padilla to take Kamala Harris seat and that left the Senate with no black women. Now, Padilla was historic in his own right. He’s the first Latino senator from California. But it did seem that Newsom was making that pledge to help himself in a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> There might have a been a recall happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There was a recall happening. And I’m sure Dianne Feinstein didn’t appreciate that, you know, being basically, you know, you’re kind of speculating about her having to leave the office one way or the other. And then, yeah, he walked it back and said he didn’t want to interfere by putting Barbara Lee in that seat, which is what a lot of women of color, black women in particular, were pushing for and so was Barbara Lee. Barbara Lee said, I will take that job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We should say, Congresswoman Barbara Lee of Oakland who is running to replace Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> What’s curious is, on the merits, it didn’t entirely make sense to say you can only be an interim appointment. He never told Alex Padilla, you can only be an interim appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What is in from a point of putting somebody in a group that has historically struggled to win elections in a seat, it’s to give them the power of incumbency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But what changed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Barbara Lee is maybe a little bit to his left. I mean, let’s say whoever he appoints, whoever it is, is going to be a reflection of him. And if they do things that aren’t out of sync with his own politics, he’s going to have to answer to that, in some ways. He may run for president one day. And I think Barbara Lee is probably a little more liberal than he would like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And probably older.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And also Nancy Pelosi. Let’s face it, Nancy Pelosi has endorsed Adam Schiff, and I think she probably leaned on him not to upset that apple cart —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Or to appoint Schiff. And I think, I do think some of this was new, some sort of exercising some independence from a lot of the party establishment who and it wasn’t like they were all lining up behind one person. But to have Pelosi out there publicly endorsing Schiff, to have Barbara Lee and her allies in the Congressional Black Caucus, calling on him very specifically and very angrily after he demurred. You know, I think that some of it was that. What changed, Guy? I don’t know exactly. One of my guesses is, might be that they talked to a lot of black women who said, I don’t want an interim job. I’m not going to give up the job I have now to take that and for what?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Knowing it would only be for thirteen months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It’s condescending to to say, well, she’s free to run. Like, of course she’s free to run. She can make that choice on her own. With or without his permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I got to say, and I and I think and I don’t think from what she said and from what I’ve heard, I don’t think that these conversations were directly with Butler before he offered her the position. But I do think once her name came up and he and his people in his inner circle started thinking about her, I mean, maybe that was what changed, was that they looked at her and said, we don’t want to put those handcuffs on her, right? And she is, I think, really a smart choice. I mean, not only is she very well respected in the California political community for her time leading SEIU and really her, I think, excellent negotiating skills at the table on things like the $15 minimum wage. She’s also our first openly lesbian senator. She is 44 years old and she has been running Emily’s List, a fund raising group. Right. So even though she does not have any household sort of name recognition, I think her ability to build it is probably way far ahead of a lot of potential candidates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It is. But, you know, the time is getting short. You know, she’s got to if she’s going to run, she’s got to have a statement in by November. You know, I think the absolute deadline is December 8th. Yeah, it’s hard to put together a statewide operation. And then, you know, the governor would have to endorse her, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> She’ll have the name Senator next to her name on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> A lot of earned media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> A lot of earned media. And I think, you know, for better or worse, the conversation I think, is now going to shift towards Barbara Lee. This was a loss for her not to get this appointment. I also think she’s really going to be splitting a lot of the supporters that Barbara Lee has, both voters and also kind of financial backers. I mean, talking to folks like California Donor Table, Aimee Allison, they’re not upset about Laphonza Butler’s appointment. They’re praising that and saying, oh, you know, we’re trying to figure out a situation in which we can support both of these candidates going forward. That’s tough and I could really see a situation where as we get closer to December, there starts to be calls for Barbara Lee, like, do you want to stay in this race if you’re still going to be in single digits? Because look, as the way the field is right now, it’s not going to take a whole lot to get into the top two primary. I know every Democrat is going to be wearing a Steve Garvey jersey from now until March, because if he gets in the race, I think that’s the only situation where you might have two Democrats. And I think, you know, for Butler, get to what? 20%, 25% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It’ll be super interesting. I’m sure we’ll see a poll in the next few weeks with her name in it. Just to just get a sense of like who you know, I think we all it’s easy for us. You know, we’re steeped in this stuff to think that everyone is you know, I got a cup of coffee today and I was wearing a black suit because of the funeral, the memorial. And the woman said, oh, you’re wearing you got all dressed up. I said, Yeah, I’m going to a funeral. She goes, Oh, who died? I said, Dianne Feinstein. She looked at me like, Who is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Oh, my Lyft driver knew exactly who Dianne Feinstein was, but I had not heard that she had passed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So it’s just a reality check.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah well we’ve been steeped in this and haven’t had a day off in two weeks. But I do think when you think about Laphonza Butler, I mean, part of this is, you know, going to be her job to introduce herself to people. And to your point, Scott, we know her already. She has been, as I said, the head for almost a decade. She led the largest labor union in the state, which really is sort of one of the biggest advocates for not just working people, but working people of color and women in particular. And, you know, when we spoke to Laphonza Butler back in 2019 here in Political Breakdown, she talked about kind of what led her to that work. And this is part of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laphonza Butler:\u003c/strong> My mom worked really hard. My dad died when I was 16 years old. He had heart disease. By the time he passed away, he’d had six heart attacks. He had a stroke, he had had a crow, he’d had a heart transplant, got a new heart from an 18 year old who died in a motorcycle accident. So my life was really lived through the eyes of a caregiver. My mother was my father’s caregiver in the last years of of his life and having to understand what families everyday go through when it when it comes to issues like health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think when you listen to the fans of Butler, you get an authenticity about her. She’s not like the other people in the Senate, you know, which is sometimes criticized for being, you know, male Yale and pale. She comes from Mississippi, Magnolia, Mississippi. She went to Jackson State University. Her mom was a caregiver. Her dad died. She’s got real life experience. And that was also steeped in the labor movement, organizing nurses and janitors. And it’s it really is a completely different perspective that most U.S. senators have. And we’ll see if she runs or not. But I do think there’s an excitement about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I think we have to think about we’re all here doing the political kind of chess game for her. This is a deeply personal decision. And she’s talked about this in the very few interviews she gave that she values her privacy. She is a black lesbian woman with a daughter. Her daughter was not at the swearing in. I wonder if that was not on purpose. I mean, this is not a time in America where you want to put your family out there to be vulnerable when you are part of those minorities. And so I do think that beyond the sort of political calculations, she’s going to be thinking hard about what kind what public service means to her and if this is worth what is was acknowledged today for Dianne Feinstein, it is something that your family is giving up as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It must be hard just speaking of giving up, like give up a job, give up the job of being a United States senator when you had a taste of it for, you know, a few weeks, months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It is just such a unique I mean, I can’t think of anyone else who has the legislative experience Laphonza Butler has, who’s not a politician.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Who’s never run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> More legislative experience. You could argue that half the lawmakers in Sacramento in terms of actually negotiating at the table and being in the mix and not just sort of taking a bill from an outside group and running it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> From what I heard today at the memorial service, she was definitely working the crowd looking like a candidate, you know, shaking hands, which Adam Schiff was as well. We saw him out there, too. But, yeah, I mean, this is new for her. It’s a new role. But, you know. It’s a different kind of like it’s a different kind of organizing. She’s been an organizer and that’s what campaigns are about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And so we don’t we know she worked for in tech for a little bit. We won’t gloss over that. There’s plenty of time to talk about that. I’m sure we’ll get a response from listeners if we don’t mention that, but just a minute left, guys. But we got to acknowledge the talk about political earthquakes. Kevin McCarthy is out as speaker. It is chaos in the House in Washington. We, you know, are seeing just I think I mean, talk of former President Trump becoming the next speaker. I mean, it’s wild. 30 seconds, Guy. What are you watching for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I’m watching for the vulnerable House Republicans in California who have stood in line with Kevin McCarthy on some really conservative votes over the last nine months now might be going free range.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And also with a lot less fundraising behind them, because McCarthy was, you know, had a huge haul of money for them to help prop them up. It’s a presidential year that could be more vulnerable anyway. So I think a lot of them are kind of nervous. And, you know, there’s fury on the Republican side. There were seven Republicans that voted to get rid of him and all the Democrats. And so we’re going to be talking to Nancy Pelosi next week. And it’ll be interesting to hear what she has to say. They took her hideaway office away. There’s usually a courtesy given to former speakers. So, yeah, it’s it is dysfunction junction back there in Washington for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right. We’re going to leave it there. Dianne Feinstein would not be happy to see it. I know that. That’s going to do it for this edition of Political Breakdown. We’re a production of KQED Public Radio. Thanks to Guy Marzorati as always, for joining us. Before we go, we do want to let folks know that our on stage interview with Congresswoman Pelosi is now Monday instead of Tuesday because she’s going to be back in D.C. so the House can maybe pick a new speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, so we’ll be lots to talk to her about. We’re going to be talking with her about that and many other things that if you were planning to join us in person or watch online, you can visit KQED.org/live for more information. For today, our engineer is Christopher Beale, I’m Scott Shafer.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marisa and Scott recap Dianne Feinstein’s memorial service and hear Nancy Pelosi’s memories of the former mayor and senator. Guy Marzorati joins to discuss Feinstein’s legacy, California’s new Senator Laphonza Butler and the choice facing Butler over whether to run for a full term.\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Hey, everyone. From KQED Public Radio, this is Political Breakdown. I’m Marisa Lagos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And I’m Scott Shafer, and today on the Breakdown: recapping a whirlwind week in California politics. We’ll reflect on the legacy of Senator Dianne Feinstein after her memorial service Thursday at San Francisco City Hall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And we’ll talk about the woman appointed to succeed Feinstein, Laphonza Butler, and the biggest question in California politics, will Butler run for a full term in the Senate? Joining us to talk all about this is the indispensable third member of our Political Breakdown team, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> What a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What a week, I’m done, can we call mercy now on the political news? Well, today we all just got back. Scott and I were there at the public memorial service for Senator Feinstein, where Vice President Kamala Harris, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Mayor London Breed and Feinstein’s granddaughter all spoke along with Chuck Schumer, leader of the Senate. But I mean, that’s one of the things that struck me was like looking at that stage full of women, right. Who all are incredibly powerful and thinking back on Feinstein. And Scott, on Wednesday, you were there as her body lay in state at city hall. I know there was a lot of just normal members of the public there and some dignitaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was. The city hall opened at around nine and I was over there bright and early. And Speaker Pelosi, Speaker Emerita Pelosi got there about one word about 9:00. And she came and met with Catherine Feinstein, the late senator’s daughter, and she was very choked up. I have to say, I went to talk to her before she goes, let’s wait until I sign the condolence book and go in and see the coffin and pay my respects, say a prayer. She was very, you know, close to Dianne Feinstein. It was very emotional for her. She had flown on the president’s plane, Air Force One, with the senator’s body and Catherine Feinstein. So it was all very, very emotional. Afterwards, we did get a chance to talk about what the senator meant to her and to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> I was thinking of the words during the night about how gentle she was, but how strategic she was. And so, she knew her purpose and she would not be, she did things on her own terms, but she always did them with gentleness. She loved flowers. She loved to grow them. She loved to paint them. She loved to show them off. And so she had she was very, very special person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There are people who don’t remember her as mayor because they’re too young or they just moved here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> They weren’t even born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> What are your thoughts? Like what should what should people know about her tenure as mayor and what she left behind?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Pelosi:\u003c/strong> What they should know about her is that as mayor of the city, she came in under the most gruesome circumstances, and yet she gave comfort and strength to the city at that difficult time. But the story I love to tell is that when we wanted to, I was chair of the California party, we wanted to have the Democratic convention come to San Francisco. So we went to see her and she said, ‘Well, I can’t do that if it takes any resources away from Laguna Honda.’ She was always thinking about those in most need, and we said, no, that it wouldn’t do that. But let us prove that to you. As you know, the stories of her just giving mouth to mouth resuscitation to somebody on the street that she didn’t even know. But that’s what she was. She was generous, generous, completely generous. So, again, she and I were not on the same place on the political spectrum. So we had our fun with it all. But from a personal standpoint, my family loved her. We were neighbors, we were friends and my daughter, Nancy. We always tease and said, if Diane and I were running against each other, we were sure Nancy Carinne would vote for Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What great tape, Scott. You know, I think the former speaker talked there about her living on her own terms, dying on her own terms. She voted the day that she passed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> To keep the government running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> To keep the government open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Walked onto the Senate floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Walked on and we were talking to one of her staff members today who said, you know, she was frail and she did need a wheelchair to get around. But she insisted that we would wheel her up to the door and she would walk into that chamber by herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I thought Pelosi, out of the speakers today at the memorial, was the most personal of all the elected officials. I mean, she even mentioned to you, Scott, they they had their political differences. They weren’t the same kind of Democrats, something like the Iraq war. You look at different votes that they had. But she had a personal connection to Feinstein that I don’t think maybe many of the others on stage did. She talked about her own, you know, daughter in that tape with you. Her daughter Nancy, took care of Feinstein kind of towards the very end of her life in Washington.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I think, you know, the just the fact that she could look out the window of her house and see the hydrangeas in Senator Feinstein’s garden, you know, they obviously were you know, they were neighbors. They were friends. They were, you know, kind of quasi-family. They were political family at the very least. And, you know, one of the other things I liked about the speeches today was her granddaughter, the late senator’s granddaughter, who really spoke about a softer, gentler side of her grandmother, you know, playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Playing hide and seek, which I’m trying to imagine—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Oh yeah, it was the stories that I think a politician running nowadays would want to lean into in their public persona. But the very kind of thing Feinstein was always reluctant to reveal about herself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Right, and you know, the book that Jerry Roberts, former Chronicle reporter, the bio of her, was called Never Let Them See You Cry, because she was always strong on the outside. And yeah, to hear the stories about picking flowers in the garden and then painting them and, you know, learning how to play chess from her grandmother and all that stuff. It was really I thought it really rounded out the view we have of Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I mean, but there’s a reason she didn’t want people to see her cry. And it’s because that she came up in a time where that was not I mean, she was sitting in seats that women weren’t supposed to be in to begin with, Right. Starting from going to Stanford in the 50s up through even being elected on the school board. I mean, you know, we’ve heard the story of her meeting Willie Brown because she was out there with, you know, Catherine Feinstein, her daughter, in a stroller, helping protest against racist housing policies that were keeping black families like Willie Brown’s out of certain San Francisco neighborhoods. At the same time, she was a single mom at that point. Right. And, you know, the other thing that I felt was very personal was Mayor London Breed talking about her today. Breed mentioned that she was born in the 1970s and you know, really came up not knowing a world without Dianne Feinstein as the mayor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>London Breed:\u003c/strong> None of the things that she told me as an adult were ever as important. As what she showed us as children. Through times of tragedy and triumph, Dianne Feinstein showed us the meaning of San Francisco’s motto Gold in Peace, Iron in War. She showed us a world where women lead, where we lift each other up so that girls like me could follow in her footsteps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that was such a powerful statement. And I think, you know, that also goes to who London Breed is, you know, the strength and the power of her own biography and growing up in San Francisco when she did and how she did. But, you know, it occurs to me, listening to that, that all you know, we talked about the political differences that Feinstein had with Pelosi. She certainly had them with Breed and with Kamala Harris too, the vice president. I mean, Well, you know, obviously, she spoke today as well. And I think we all remember that time when right after Kamala became D.A. and there was a police officer shot and killed. And she immediately said, you know, we’re not going to seek the death penalty. And Feinstein called her out at the funeral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> In a room full of police officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Roomful of police officers, they cheered. And, you know, that was and that was we’ve talked about it, you know, a pivotal moment for Kamala. So, yeah, Dianne was you know, she was, Dianne Feinstein had a particular lane in politics and it was a little bit to the right of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> But you did hear today that she didn’t make it personal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah. No, I think that’s true. And I think even, you know, Chuck Schumer talked about her ability to reach across the aisle on something like the assault weapons ban, but that carried forward in a lot of different policy areas. I mean, we talked about water. She was just as likely to work with Republicans in the Central Valley. In fact, Kevin McCarthy was someone that she worked with on water bills in the past. So I think that was certainly her kind of political style. I remember when you both sat down with her in 2018, the last time that she was running for reelection, she was really resistant to this idea of political styles. She didn’t want to be talked about as, Oh, I have a different style as Kamala —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She didn’t want to be compared. I think she felt like the media was trying to pit two women against each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And I think to her there wasn’t another style. This was the way in which you were supposed to act in the U.S. Senate. And this is, you know, the way that she viewed things had to be done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think generationally she was just not of the digital generation. You know, she wasn’t you know, she didn’t have any … Facebooking and Tweeting, her staff did that for her. And I think she she didn’t appreciate the really the quick, she was a workhorse, you know, And I think she you know, Kamala Harris told the story today when she became sent to the you know, elected to the Senate, Feinstein handed her a glass of chardonnay wine and a binder full of her bills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> California chardonnay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> California chardonnay, yeah she was just really, her nose to the grindstone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Well, Harris used a quote today, she said she was about results, not rhetoric. And I think in large part that’s why Feinstein, in her later years, was really drifting away from where not only the Democratic Party was, but just where politics are today. I think, you know, we talk about this moment where the school kids came into her office and asked her to please support the Green New Deal. And, you know, she just it was like she couldn’t believe that they had the temerity to walk into a sitting senator’s office. And I think and the you know, as you said, the digital age of politics was kind of lost on her. But kind of the pugilistic age that we’re in right now was lost on her as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She was always trying to find common ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Well and Chuck Schumer talked about this and I think other speakers, too, which is like she did her homework. She was a workhorse in the best sense of the word, that she wouldn’t just sort of speak out of turn. She would say, let me go read on that. And she actually would, which I don’t know, I don’t want to throw cast any aspersions here, but looking at what’s happened in the House of Representatives this week, I don’t know that all those people are like reading the the bill before they vote on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I do want to say, though, you know, I mentioned at the top that it was and I think you heard this in the mayor’s comments about what it felt like to grow up then. I mean, Nancy Pelosi, I think, made a joke about, you know, the fact that there’s little girls who said, oh, men can be a mayor, too? Right. But it was also very fitting to have this ceremony on the steps of city hall at the building where really her fate was sort of written in 1978 after the horrific murders of Mayor George Moscone and Harvey Milk. And, you know, looking back at everything this week as somebody who wasn’t here at the time, it’s just wild to think. I mean, just two weeks before that, over 900 people had died at the Jonestown massacre, including Congressman Leo Ryan, who was murdered basically a, you know, hit job by the leader of that cult. Her for her second husband, Bert Feinstein, had passed away earlier that year. And when we talked to her a few years ago, she said, you know, she had planned on stepping down from politics. And we asked her about that moment coming out and announcing to the world that another supervisor had murdered them. And this is what she talked about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dianne Feinstein:\u003c/strong> What happens to me is everything else blocks out except what I am doing and what I need to do. So it’s a phenomenon. I can’t explain what happens, but I can just perform. I can just keep going. And it’s not by will. I know that. But it happens that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So powerful to hear her talk about, you know, something that you can tell decades later still felt traumatic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And Chuck Schumer today made a similar allusion to her when she was up in Lake Tahoe for one of her Tahoe summits and fractured her ankle and yet refused to seek medical help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She had a job to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> She had a job to do. You know, she went through with the summit and, you know, later on got the attention that she needed. But she was tough, you know, And, you know, being like, as you said today, Guy earlier, forged in tragedy. That was actually the phrase in the TV commercial that they used when she was running for governor in 1990. And I think that I think that is part of what, how this outpouring of affection and appreciation for her that we’ve seen this week is that moment, you know, when she stood up and brought the city together, it was coming apart at the seams. And I think no one really knew what was next. You know, this is also an assassination by a former member of the board of supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Who she had been mentoring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yes, friends with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah and I think you hear that steadfastness in a quote like that from Feinstein and you realize, like why it ended like it did for her in the Senate. Like she was not someone who was going to have a life after public service or a life after politics. And I think she didn’t. It was kind of those blinders that she’s almost describing that I think ended up in a situation where the last few years of her life in the Senate were, you know, full of questions about her service and whether she’s hanging on too long. And I think it speaks to kind of the way she pursued public life and public service that led to this scenario where really towards the end, I think in a large part, played into a part of her legacy that’s going to be there, right? This last term was one of really absence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, though, because I think that, you know, in the last two years have been so difficult for her, you know, physically, mentally and a lot of criticism for not letting go sooner. And yet this week, we’ve really heard very little of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> You know, I think it’s almost like we folks got it out of the way, right? There’s the last two years have been nothing but bad news for her that I think is kind of opened the door to now, to recall —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> To recall the last four, five decades of her service and to recall the recall for five decades of her service and to think about I mean, you know, I don’t want to rush through all this, but we are going to have to take a break soon. But the things that she accomplished, not just as mayor, sort of righting the ship in this city. And, you know, not everybody agrees with her policies then, but I think there was a sense that she was a steadying force. But then also getting to the Senate and, you know, being only one of a handful of women in there and taking on gun control, the assault rifle weapons ban, you know, a decade or two later taking on the CIA with her torture report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and, you know, and what that was about really was accountability, holding the CIA accountable. And I think what, you know, we’re in this moment now are San Francisco is, you know, being, you know, criticized all over the place on Fox News and elsewhere for the situation on the streets, exaggerated in some ways. And I think people hearken back maybe to the time she was mayor. She did hold people accountable. Department heads, she expected results. And I think that’s what people are looking for is like we’re spending all this money, what are we getting? And that was the kind of question she would ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> She continued, like until the end of her life —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There’s a mattress on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Holding everyone accountable. She would make that phone call, she would apparently at SFO, all of the workers there wanted to know which side of the plane she was coming in on so they can make sure the runway looked nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So they could go on the other side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah, just push it over there. But I mean, it is. And I think it really does stand in contrast to the type of politics that we see now, especially with the former president and the rhetoric we’re seeing from him. She really deeply respected not just the institution of the Senate, but our government and our democracy. And yeah, it’s a huge loss and a life incredibly lived. Okay, we will take a short break. When we come back, we’ll look ahead to talk about California’s new senator, Laphonza Butler. You’re listening to Political Breakdown from KQED Public Radio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to Political Breakdown here with the politics dream team, Guy Marzorati and Scott Shafer and now we are going to talk about what is next for California, we have a new senator. But Guy I thought we could go back and remember why Gavin Newsom, our governor, was in kind of a pickle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Kind of boxed himself in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Tell us about the genesis of this appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah I mean, so this goes back to 2021 when Newsom was facing a recall in the early part of the year and made this pledge on the heels of having appointed Alex Padilla to fill Kamala Harris’ Senate seat that he would appoint a black woman should Feinstein’s seat open up. And it got it was controversial in the short term for people saying, well, you shouldn’t be jumping to any conclusions about DiFi. But in the you know, year since, it’s it has kind of box demand and it really culminated in this appearance on Meet the Press a couple of weeks ago where he was talking to Chuck Todd about this potential appointment. And he used the phrase interim appointment. And Chuck Todd followed up by saying, you know, you would not appoint anyone. And Newsom finished the sentence saying that would run again. And so somehow, in the weeks since, Newsom changed his mind and we can talk about maybe what played into that. But even before he announced Butler’s pick on Sunday, his office had already signaled whoever the name that comes out was going to be. They don’t have to make any promise as far as not running in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, and I think the anger that was generated in 2021, you know, he appointed Padilla to take Kamala Harris seat and that left the Senate with no black women. Now, Padilla was historic in his own right. He’s the first Latino senator from California. But it did seem that Newsom was making that pledge to help himself in a recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> There might have a been a recall happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> There was a recall happening. And I’m sure Dianne Feinstein didn’t appreciate that, you know, being basically, you know, you’re kind of speculating about her having to leave the office one way or the other. And then, yeah, he walked it back and said he didn’t want to interfere by putting Barbara Lee in that seat, which is what a lot of women of color, black women in particular, were pushing for and so was Barbara Lee. Barbara Lee said, I will take that job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We should say, Congresswoman Barbara Lee of Oakland who is running to replace Dianne Feinstein.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> What’s curious is, on the merits, it didn’t entirely make sense to say you can only be an interim appointment. He never told Alex Padilla, you can only be an interim appointment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> What is in from a point of putting somebody in a group that has historically struggled to win elections in a seat, it’s to give them the power of incumbency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But what changed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Well, I think Barbara Lee is maybe a little bit to his left. I mean, let’s say whoever he appoints, whoever it is, is going to be a reflection of him. And if they do things that aren’t out of sync with his own politics, he’s going to have to answer to that, in some ways. He may run for president one day. And I think Barbara Lee is probably a little more liberal than he would like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And probably older.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And also Nancy Pelosi. Let’s face it, Nancy Pelosi has endorsed Adam Schiff, and I think she probably leaned on him not to upset that apple cart —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Or to appoint Schiff. And I think, I do think some of this was new, some sort of exercising some independence from a lot of the party establishment who and it wasn’t like they were all lining up behind one person. But to have Pelosi out there publicly endorsing Schiff, to have Barbara Lee and her allies in the Congressional Black Caucus, calling on him very specifically and very angrily after he demurred. You know, I think that some of it was that. What changed, Guy? I don’t know exactly. One of my guesses is, might be that they talked to a lot of black women who said, I don’t want an interim job. I’m not going to give up the job I have now to take that and for what?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Knowing it would only be for thirteen months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It’s condescending to to say, well, she’s free to run. Like, of course she’s free to run. She can make that choice on her own. With or without his permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> I got to say, and I and I think and I don’t think from what she said and from what I’ve heard, I don’t think that these conversations were directly with Butler before he offered her the position. But I do think once her name came up and he and his people in his inner circle started thinking about her, I mean, maybe that was what changed, was that they looked at her and said, we don’t want to put those handcuffs on her, right? And she is, I think, really a smart choice. I mean, not only is she very well respected in the California political community for her time leading SEIU and really her, I think, excellent negotiating skills at the table on things like the $15 minimum wage. She’s also our first openly lesbian senator. She is 44 years old and she has been running Emily’s List, a fund raising group. Right. So even though she does not have any household sort of name recognition, I think her ability to build it is probably way far ahead of a lot of potential candidates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It is. But, you know, the time is getting short. You know, she’s got to if she’s going to run, she’s got to have a statement in by November. You know, I think the absolute deadline is December 8th. Yeah, it’s hard to put together a statewide operation. And then, you know, the governor would have to endorse her, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> She’ll have the name Senator next to her name on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> A lot of earned media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> A lot of earned media. And I think, you know, for better or worse, the conversation I think, is now going to shift towards Barbara Lee. This was a loss for her not to get this appointment. I also think she’s really going to be splitting a lot of the supporters that Barbara Lee has, both voters and also kind of financial backers. I mean, talking to folks like California Donor Table, Aimee Allison, they’re not upset about Laphonza Butler’s appointment. They’re praising that and saying, oh, you know, we’re trying to figure out a situation in which we can support both of these candidates going forward. That’s tough and I could really see a situation where as we get closer to December, there starts to be calls for Barbara Lee, like, do you want to stay in this race if you’re still going to be in single digits? Because look, as the way the field is right now, it’s not going to take a whole lot to get into the top two primary. I know every Democrat is going to be wearing a Steve Garvey jersey from now until March, because if he gets in the race, I think that’s the only situation where you might have two Democrats. And I think, you know, for Butler, get to what? 20%, 25% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It’ll be super interesting. I’m sure we’ll see a poll in the next few weeks with her name in it. Just to just get a sense of like who you know, I think we all it’s easy for us. You know, we’re steeped in this stuff to think that everyone is you know, I got a cup of coffee today and I was wearing a black suit because of the funeral, the memorial. And the woman said, oh, you’re wearing you got all dressed up. I said, Yeah, I’m going to a funeral. She goes, Oh, who died? I said, Dianne Feinstein. She looked at me like, Who is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Oh, my Lyft driver knew exactly who Dianne Feinstein was, but I had not heard that she had passed away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> So it’s just a reality check.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Yeah well we’ve been steeped in this and haven’t had a day off in two weeks. But I do think when you think about Laphonza Butler, I mean, part of this is, you know, going to be her job to introduce herself to people. And to your point, Scott, we know her already. She has been, as I said, the head for almost a decade. She led the largest labor union in the state, which really is sort of one of the biggest advocates for not just working people, but working people of color and women in particular. And, you know, when we spoke to Laphonza Butler back in 2019 here in Political Breakdown, she talked about kind of what led her to that work. And this is part of that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laphonza Butler:\u003c/strong> My mom worked really hard. My dad died when I was 16 years old. He had heart disease. By the time he passed away, he’d had six heart attacks. He had a stroke, he had had a crow, he’d had a heart transplant, got a new heart from an 18 year old who died in a motorcycle accident. So my life was really lived through the eyes of a caregiver. My mother was my father’s caregiver in the last years of of his life and having to understand what families everyday go through when it when it comes to issues like health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> You know, I think when you listen to the fans of Butler, you get an authenticity about her. She’s not like the other people in the Senate, you know, which is sometimes criticized for being, you know, male Yale and pale. She comes from Mississippi, Magnolia, Mississippi. She went to Jackson State University. Her mom was a caregiver. Her dad died. She’s got real life experience. And that was also steeped in the labor movement, organizing nurses and janitors. And it’s it really is a completely different perspective that most U.S. senators have. And we’ll see if she runs or not. But I do think there’s an excitement about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And I think we have to think about we’re all here doing the political kind of chess game for her. This is a deeply personal decision. And she’s talked about this in the very few interviews she gave that she values her privacy. She is a black lesbian woman with a daughter. Her daughter was not at the swearing in. I wonder if that was not on purpose. I mean, this is not a time in America where you want to put your family out there to be vulnerable when you are part of those minorities. And so I do think that beyond the sort of political calculations, she’s going to be thinking hard about what kind what public service means to her and if this is worth what is was acknowledged today for Dianne Feinstein, it is something that your family is giving up as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> It must be hard just speaking of giving up, like give up a job, give up the job of being a United States senator when you had a taste of it for, you know, a few weeks, months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> It is just such a unique I mean, I can’t think of anyone else who has the legislative experience Laphonza Butler has, who’s not a politician.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Who’s never run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> More legislative experience. You could argue that half the lawmakers in Sacramento in terms of actually negotiating at the table and being in the mix and not just sort of taking a bill from an outside group and running it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> From what I heard today at the memorial service, she was definitely working the crowd looking like a candidate, you know, shaking hands, which Adam Schiff was as well. We saw him out there, too. But, yeah, I mean, this is new for her. It’s a new role. But, you know. It’s a different kind of like it’s a different kind of organizing. She’s been an organizer and that’s what campaigns are about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And so we don’t we know she worked for in tech for a little bit. We won’t gloss over that. There’s plenty of time to talk about that. I’m sure we’ll get a response from listeners if we don’t mention that, but just a minute left, guys. But we got to acknowledge the talk about political earthquakes. Kevin McCarthy is out as speaker. It is chaos in the House in Washington. We, you know, are seeing just I think I mean, talk of former President Trump becoming the next speaker. I mean, it’s wild. 30 seconds, Guy. What are you watching for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> I’m watching for the vulnerable House Republicans in California who have stood in line with Kevin McCarthy on some really conservative votes over the last nine months now might be going free range.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> And also with a lot less fundraising behind them, because McCarthy was, you know, had a huge haul of money for them to help prop them up. It’s a presidential year that could be more vulnerable anyway. So I think a lot of them are kind of nervous. And, you know, there’s fury on the Republican side. There were seven Republicans that voted to get rid of him and all the Democrats. And so we’re going to be talking to Nancy Pelosi next week. And it’ll be interesting to hear what she has to say. They took her hideaway office away. There’s usually a courtesy given to former speakers. So, yeah, it’s it is dysfunction junction back there in Washington for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> All right. We’re going to leave it there. Dianne Feinstein would not be happy to see it. I know that. That’s going to do it for this edition of Political Breakdown. We’re a production of KQED Public Radio. Thanks to Guy Marzorati as always, for joining us. Before we go, we do want to let folks know that our on stage interview with Congresswoman Pelosi is now Monday instead of Tuesday because she’s going to be back in D.C. so the House can maybe pick a new speaker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Shafer:\u003c/strong> Yeah, well, so we’ll be lots to talk to her about. We’re going to be talking with her about that and many other things that if you were planning to join us in person or watch online, you can visit KQED.org/live for more information. For today, our engineer is Christopher Beale, I’m Scott Shafer.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the new interim speaker, Patrick McHenry, of ordering her to vacate her workspace in the U.S. Capitol building on Tuesday, just hours after \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/03/1203310040/mccarthy-gaetz-speaker-news\">the chamber’s abrupt leadership shake-up\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a statement shared with NPR, Pelosi said she was asked to leave her space “immediately.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With all of the important decisions that the new Republican Leadership must address, which we are all eagerly awaiting, one of the first actions taken by the new Speaker Pro Tempore was to order me to immediately vacate my office in the Capitol,” she wrote, referring to McHenry, R-N.C., by his new formal title.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) the former House majority leader, was also asked to leave his Capitol office space, his staff confirmed to NPR.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>NPR viewed the text of an email, which was reportedly sent to Pelosi’s staff at 6:11 p.m. on Tuesday, asking the team to remove their belongings by Wednesday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Speaker pro tempore is going to re-assign H-132 for speaker office use. Please vacate the space tomorrow, the room will be re-keyed,” the email reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi, like most members of the House, maintains a regular office in the Cannon House Building, which is just across the street from the Capitol. But as a former speaker, she also has access to a hideaway space within the Capitol itself. The speaker has sole authority to dole out prized Capitol real estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This eviction is a sharp departure from tradition,” she said in her statement. “As Speaker, I gave former Speaker Hastert a significantly larger suite of offices for as long as he wished,” she added, referring to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2007/08/17/12866087/rep-dennis-hastert-to-bow-out\">former Rep. Dennis Hastert\u003c/a>, R-Ill., who served as House speaker from 1999 to 2007.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But even as speaker herself, Pelosi famously departed from tradition when it came to managing the spaces. She quietly \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/03/12/702577175/speaker-pelosi-revokes-mike-pences-house-office-space\">revoked an office assigned to then-Vice President Mike Pence\u003c/a> and gave it to the White House legislative affairs team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label='More Politics Coverage' tag='politics']Concerning her own office, Pelosi says she’ll be unable to move her belongings from the space because she is not currently in Washington, D.C. The California Democrat, who was absent from Tuesday’s vote, said she’s back in her home state to pay tribute to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/09/29/1125664267/dianne-feinstein-obituary\">Diane Feinstein\u003c/a>, the long-serving California senator who died last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Feinstein is scheduled to lie in state at San Francisco City Hall on Wednesday ahead of funeral services Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi said the office space ultimately “doesn’t matter” to her, but “it seems to be important to them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now that the new Republican Leadership has settled this important matter, let’s hope they get to work on what’s truly important for the American people,” she wrote in her statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>NPR reached out to McHenry’s office for comment but had not received a reply by the time this article was published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Republican from North Carolina was named speaker pro tempore on Tuesday after eight Republicans sided with \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/03/1203310040/mccarthy-gaetz-speaker-news\">House Democrats in a vote to oust Kevin McCarthy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2023 NPR. To see more, visit \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org\">NPR.org\u003c/a>.\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://www.google-analytics.com/__utm.gif?utmac=UA-5828686-4&utmdt=Nancy+Pelosi+says+the+interim+House+speaker+asked+her+to+vacate+her+Capitol+office&utme=8(APIKey)9(MDAxOTAwOTE4MDEyMTkxMDAzNjczZDljZA004)\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Concerning her own office, Pelosi says she’ll be unable to move her belongings from the space because she is not currently in Washington, D.C. The California Democrat, who was absent from Tuesday’s vote, said she’s back in her home state to pay tribute to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/09/29/1125664267/dianne-feinstein-obituary\">Diane Feinstein\u003c/a>, the long-serving California senator who died last week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Feinstein is scheduled to lie in state at San Francisco City Hall on Wednesday ahead of funeral services Thursday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pelosi said the office space ultimately “doesn’t matter” to her, but “it seems to be important to them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now that the new Republican Leadership has settled this important matter, let’s hope they get to work on what’s truly important for the American people,” she wrote in her statement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>NPR reached out to McHenry’s office for comment but had not received a reply by the time this article was published.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Republican from North Carolina was named speaker pro tempore on Tuesday after eight Republicans sided with \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/10/03/1203310040/mccarthy-gaetz-speaker-news\">House Democrats in a vote to oust Kevin McCarthy\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2023 NPR. To see more, visit \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org\">NPR.org\u003c/a>.\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" src=\"https://www.google-analytics.com/__utm.gif?utmac=UA-5828686-4&utmdt=Nancy+Pelosi+says+the+interim+House+speaker+asked+her+to+vacate+her+Capitol+office&utme=8(APIKey)9(MDAxOTAwOTE4MDEyMTkxMDAzNjczZDljZA004)\">\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
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"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
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},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
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