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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986718/david-depape-sentenced-to-30-years-in-federal-prison-for-attack-on-nancy-pelosis-husband\">sentenced to 30 years in prison\u003c/a> last month after \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">a federal jury found him guilty in November\u003c/a> of one count of attempted kidnapping of a federal officer and one count of assault on the immediate family member of a federal official. After serving his sentence, he will likely be deported back to his native Canada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Through evidence and testimony, prosecutors alleged DePape traveled from the East Bay to the Pelosis’ San Francisco home after 2 a.m. on Oct. 28, 2022, with the intent of interrogating Nancy Pelosi regarding Russiagate, a debunked conspiracy theory regarding the investigations into Russia’s meddling in U.S. elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Among the supplies he brought with him, DePape had a sledgehammer and GoPro cameras that prosecutors allege were to be used to maim the House speaker on camera to make a video for YouTube, where DePape was allegedly radicalized by conspiracy theory videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He wanted to break her kneecaps so she would be wheeled onto the floor of Congress. So people would know there are consequences,” Assistant District Attorney Phoebe Maffei said in her closing arguments on Tuesday. “This case is unusual.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors showed jurors security camera footage from the Pelosis’ home, which showed DePape smash out a glass patio door before forcing his way through a wooden one. They heard the 911 call Paul Pelosi made from his bedroom bathroom, where he calmly said there was someone in his home with him and that person wanted him to get off the phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jurors also saw body camera footage of two Capitol Police officers approaching the Pelosis’ front door in response to that 911 call, finding Paul Pelosi standing next to DePape, both gripping a handle. When commanded to put the hammer down, DePape replied, “Nope,” before swinging the hammer multiple times at Pelosi, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11930397/nancy-pelosis-husband-assaulted-in-san-francisco-break-in\">fracturing his skull\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape’s public defenders admitted he was guilty of several of the charged felonies, including first-degree residential burglary and dissuading a witness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But San Francisco Public Defender Adam Lipson argued the state failed to prove DePape guilty of kidnapping because there was nothing of value to be gained from Paul Pelosi, 82.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really unfortunate it was charged this way,” Lipson said. “It was sort of a textbook vindictive prosecution. As soon as they found out that the attempted murder charge was going to be dismissed, they added this [kidnapping] charge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maffei countered that a video of the House speaker confessing in her own home to alleged crimes against the American people would have great value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape told investigators his other targets included actor Tom Hanks, former Vice President Mike Pence, a professor in San Francisco and his ex-wife, Gypsy Taub, whom the judge \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11990966/state-case-against-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband-is-in-jurys-hands\">barred from the proceedings \u003c/a>for allegedly attempting to intimidate the jury.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Dorfman ordered Taub to stay away from the second floor of the Hall of Justice, where the trial was held after graffiti was discovered in a women’s restroom. That graffiti was the address to a website Taub said she established to cast doubt on the state’s case against DePape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Biden Administration Seeks to Dismiss Lawsuit Over Bay Area Women's Prison Abuses",
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"content": "\u003cp>The Federal Bureau of Prisons is seeking to dismiss a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987292/trial-for-class-action-lawsuit-over-troubled-womens-prison-slated-for-june-2025\">class action lawsuit\u003c/a> demanding systemic changes at a federal East Bay women’s prison where eight former officers have been convicted of sexual assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys filed the class action lawsuit last August on behalf of women formerly incarcerated at Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, who alleged rampant sexual assault and retaliation by officers at the low-security facility. But, BOP \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982973/feds-abruptly-close-east-bay-womens-prison-following-sexual-abuse-scandals\">abruptly shut down the facility in April\u003c/a>, shortly after a federal judge ordered a special master to oversee changes aimed at improving conditions at the prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now that the facility has shuttered, the government is asking a federal judge to dismiss the class action case entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The injunctive claims addressing conditions of confinement at FCI Dublin—a facility where no inmates are confined—must be dismissed as moot,” the motion filed on Tuesday reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to the class action case, FCI Dublin is facing nearly 60 lawsuits around sexual assault, retaliation and medical neglect from allegations dating back to around 2021, when an \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> investigation found a culture of abuse and cover-ups that had persisted for years at the low-security federal women’s prison, which had more than 650 inmates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both the BOP and the court recognized that FCI Dublin was in “dire need of immediate change,” the motion reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In early April, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982014/judge-chooses-top-pick-for-special-master-to-oversee-womens-prison-following-rampant-abuse\">appointed Wendy Still as the first-ever “special master” for the U.S. Bureau of Prisons\u003c/a> and ordered her to produce a report on conditions at the facility and facilitate mandatory changes at the prison, including improving sexual assault reporting protocols and access to mental and physical health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Biden administration responded by shutting down the facility and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11984115/women-forced-to-relocate-from-fci-dublin-prison-report-traumatizing-journey-seek-compassionate-release\">sending hundreds of women previously housed there to prisons across the country\u003c/a>, in many cases far away from family and attorneys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Advocates for women previously incarcerated at FCI Dublin say dismissing the class action lawsuit would ignore the life-threatening patterns of abuse that women at the prison had to endure — and in some cases at the facilities they were moved to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If BOP succeeds in its plan to evade court scrutiny, there will be no accountability as they continue to abuse and retaliate against people behind closed doors,” Emily Shapiro of the California Coalition for Women Prisoners, an organizational plaintiff in the class action lawsuit, said in an email. “The next person assaulted by one of their guards or punished for coming forward will know that the Biden BOP and Director Colette Peters are responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label='Related Coverage' tag='fci-dublin']Nearly 60 plaintiffs’ individual damages cases are still active. If Dublin is eventually reopened, it will not be used to house women again, according to the government’s motion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, members of Congress are ramping up their inquiries into how the BOP handled closing FCI Dublin and are seeking an explanation from BOP Director Collette Peters on the chaotic situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the weeks since BOP announced the closure of FCI Dublin on April 15, we have heard … shocking abuses that allegedly took place during the mass AIC transfers,” reads a \u003ca href=\"https://desaulnier.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/desaulnier.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Letter%20to%20BOP%20Director%20Peters%2024.6.13.pdf\">letter sent to Peters on June 13, signed by nearly two dozen Congress members\u003c/a>. The letter lists several of the abuses women have alleged took place during the transfer process, including whistleblower retaliation, inhumane treatment, and withholding of medical care. “This level of disregard for human dignity cannot be tolerated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite BOP’s order to close FCI Dublin, Special Master Wendy Still has continued her assignment and submitted a report to the court about the conditions and culture at the facility based on interviews and various records released to her for the assessment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That report has not yet been released to the public, and the federal government is simultaneously seeking to keep it private, according to another motion filed on Monday, calling its findings “demonstrably incorrect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At every turn, the BOP has tried to silence incarcerated people and avoid public scrutiny. For years, they failed to prevent rampant sexual abuse and allowed survivors to be punished with solitary confinement simply for speaking out,” Kendra Drysdale, who was formerly incarcerated at Dublin, said in an email. “These are not the actions of an agency interested in public safety or community accountability. They are not the actions of an agency that takes seriously learning from its mistakes and protecting the people in its custody.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The Federal Bureau of Prisons is seeking to dismiss a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987292/trial-for-class-action-lawsuit-over-troubled-womens-prison-slated-for-june-2025\">class action lawsuit\u003c/a> demanding systemic changes at a federal East Bay women’s prison where eight former officers have been convicted of sexual assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attorneys filed the class action lawsuit last August on behalf of women formerly incarcerated at Federal Correctional Institution, Dublin, who alleged rampant sexual assault and retaliation by officers at the low-security facility. But, BOP \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982973/feds-abruptly-close-east-bay-womens-prison-following-sexual-abuse-scandals\">abruptly shut down the facility in April\u003c/a>, shortly after a federal judge ordered a special master to oversee changes aimed at improving conditions at the prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now that the facility has shuttered, the government is asking a federal judge to dismiss the class action case entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The injunctive claims addressing conditions of confinement at FCI Dublin—a facility where no inmates are confined—must be dismissed as moot,” the motion filed on Tuesday reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to the class action case, FCI Dublin is facing nearly 60 lawsuits around sexual assault, retaliation and medical neglect from allegations dating back to around 2021, when an \u003cem>Associated Press\u003c/em> investigation found a culture of abuse and cover-ups that had persisted for years at the low-security federal women’s prison, which had more than 650 inmates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Both the BOP and the court recognized that FCI Dublin was in “dire need of immediate change,” the motion reads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In early April, U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982014/judge-chooses-top-pick-for-special-master-to-oversee-womens-prison-following-rampant-abuse\">appointed Wendy Still as the first-ever “special master” for the U.S. Bureau of Prisons\u003c/a> and ordered her to produce a report on conditions at the facility and facilitate mandatory changes at the prison, including improving sexual assault reporting protocols and access to mental and physical health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Biden administration responded by shutting down the facility and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11984115/women-forced-to-relocate-from-fci-dublin-prison-report-traumatizing-journey-seek-compassionate-release\">sending hundreds of women previously housed there to prisons across the country\u003c/a>, in many cases far away from family and attorneys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Advocates for women previously incarcerated at FCI Dublin say dismissing the class action lawsuit would ignore the life-threatening patterns of abuse that women at the prison had to endure — and in some cases at the facilities they were moved to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If BOP succeeds in its plan to evade court scrutiny, there will be no accountability as they continue to abuse and retaliate against people behind closed doors,” Emily Shapiro of the California Coalition for Women Prisoners, an organizational plaintiff in the class action lawsuit, said in an email. “The next person assaulted by one of their guards or punished for coming forward will know that the Biden BOP and Director Colette Peters are responsible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Nearly 60 plaintiffs’ individual damages cases are still active. If Dublin is eventually reopened, it will not be used to house women again, according to the government’s motion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, members of Congress are ramping up their inquiries into how the BOP handled closing FCI Dublin and are seeking an explanation from BOP Director Collette Peters on the chaotic situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the weeks since BOP announced the closure of FCI Dublin on April 15, we have heard … shocking abuses that allegedly took place during the mass AIC transfers,” reads a \u003ca href=\"https://desaulnier.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/desaulnier.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Letter%20to%20BOP%20Director%20Peters%2024.6.13.pdf\">letter sent to Peters on June 13, signed by nearly two dozen Congress members\u003c/a>. The letter lists several of the abuses women have alleged took place during the transfer process, including whistleblower retaliation, inhumane treatment, and withholding of medical care. “This level of disregard for human dignity cannot be tolerated.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite BOP’s order to close FCI Dublin, Special Master Wendy Still has continued her assignment and submitted a report to the court about the conditions and culture at the facility based on interviews and various records released to her for the assessment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That report has not yet been released to the public, and the federal government is simultaneously seeking to keep it private, according to another motion filed on Monday, calling its findings “demonstrably incorrect.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At every turn, the BOP has tried to silence incarcerated people and avoid public scrutiny. For years, they failed to prevent rampant sexual abuse and allowed survivors to be punished with solitary confinement simply for speaking out,” Kendra Drysdale, who was formerly incarcerated at Dublin, said in an email. “These are not the actions of an agency interested in public safety or community accountability. They are not the actions of an agency that takes seriously learning from its mistakes and protecting the people in its custody.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Ex-Wife of Man Who Attacked Paul Pelosi Is Barred From Court as Jury Deliberates",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 5:50 p.m. Tuesday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state charges against \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/david-depape\">David DePape\u003c/a>, who is on trial for a second time for breaking into the home of former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and attacking her husband, are now in the hands of 12 jurors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But before the defense could give its closing arguments on Tuesday, Judge Harry Dorfman barred Gypsy Taub, DePape’s ex-wife, from attending the proceedings or even being on the second floor of the San Francisco courthouse where lawyers, reporters and the jury gathered outside the courtroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s rare that I order someone excluded from the courtroom,” Dorfman said. “The line for me is when a member of the public attempts to influence a member of the jury.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prior to Dorfman’s order, graffiti was found in the women’s bathroom nearest the courtroom, which contained a website address DePape’s family set up last year, proclaiming his innocence. On Monday, Taub handed out printed pieces of paper with the link to the website, as well as her phone number and email address. She even told reporters she was running the site to cast doubt on the state’s evidence in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting at noon Tuesday, the jury began deliberating DePape’s fate on five charges: burglary, felony false imprisonment of an elder, threatening a public official, kidnapping and intimidating a witness. Dorfman \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989279/sf-judge-tosses-3-state-charges-against-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband\">dismissed three other charges \u003c/a>— attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and elder abuse — after the defense successfully argued DePape had already been tried for those crimes in federal court, where he was convicted and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987892/paul-pelosis-attacker-apologizes-at-resentencing-but-prison-term-is-unchanged\">sentenced last month to 30 years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their closing arguments, both the prosecution and defense painted DePape, 44, as someone who went too far down the rabbit hole of YouTube conspiracy theories, leaving him to believe the government to be corrupt and that Hollywood was tied up in a large pedophile ring. Taub, who has also embraced conspiracy theories, heavily influenced his actions and “inflicted immeasurable harm to his mental state,” DePape’s defense had argued in federal court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Led by his belief in those theories, DePape went to the Pelosis’ San Francisco home after 2 a.m. on Oct. 28, 2022, in search of the House speaker. He used a hammer to smash in the downstairs patio door and his 6-foot-4, 300-pound body to push open a heavy wood door, bursting through the doors of the couple’s third-floor bedroom where only Paul Pelosi was asleep, according to court testimony.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990965\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Public defender Adam Lipson gives his closing arguments in the state trial of David DePape in San Francisco Superior Court on June 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Where’s Nancy?” Paul Pelosi testified that DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors again played the 911 call Paul Pelosi made over the speaker phone in their bedroom bathroom, with Assistant District Attorney Phoebe Maffei telling the jury it would make more sense now that they had all the details of those early morning hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My name is David,” DePape said on the call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who is David?” the 911 operator said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know,” Paul Pelosi said. “He says he’s a friend, but he’s not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors repeatedly played body camera video from two Capitol Police officers who responded to the home following Paul Pelosi’s call to 911 to find him and DePape standing next to each other, trying to gain control of a claw hammer in DePape’s hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Drop the hammer,” one officer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nope,” DePape replied before striking Pelosi multiple times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jurors heard from investigators and received transcripts of DePape’s testimony from his federal trial, where a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">jury found him guilty in November\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maffei said DePape spent months planning a “rampage” with a list of targets and showed up to the Pelosi home “prepared for a lengthy standoff.” DePape wanted to confront Pelosi and interrogate her about “Russiagate,” an online conspiracy theory regarding the investigation into Russian interference in U.S. elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape brought a sledgehammer to then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s home with one purpose, Maffei said: “He wanted to break her kneecaps, so she would be wheeled onto the floor of Congress. So people would know there are consequences.”[aside postID=news_11989279 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9258_qut-1020x574.jpg']DePape also had two GoPro cameras with him, “so his hands could be free while he maimed her and filmed her,” which he could then post online, acting as fodder for people like him researching conspiracy theories, Maffei said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his closing, San Francisco Public Defender Adam Lipson told the jury that DePape was guilty of a few of the charges, including first-degree residential burglary and dissuading a witness, and guilty of at least attempting to falsely imprison Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue, at least to the defense, was the charge of threatening the family of a public official. Lipson argued that the threats DePape issued to Paul Pelosi — like saying he couldn’t stop him from going onto his next targets — had nothing to do with his wife’s position in government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had nothing to do with Nancy Pelosi or her official duties,” Lipson said. “They don’t have the intent in this case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lipson also argued that DePape wasn’t holding Paul Pelosi hostage to get something from his wife, claiming the video he wanted to make of Pelosi confessing to lies he said she had told about Russiagate wasn’t a thing of value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her rebuttal, Maffei said there was great value to someone who said he was “impassioned about the lies coming out of Washington, D.C.” in getting the speaker of the House to admit to crimes in her own home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990952\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch depicts Gypsy Taub being escorted out of the courtroom in the state trial of David DePape in San Francisco Superior Court on June 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This plan all along had been to get to Nancy Pelosi,” Maffei said. “He fully expected to be knocking out her kneecaps to get the confession he wanted. That makes clear the value of the video he wanted to make.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maffei said the evidence presented at trial showed DePape’s plan wasn’t a good one, but it was a “thoroughly thought-through plan” that included targeting Pelosi, actor Tom Hanks, former Vice President Mike Pence, a professor in San Francisco and even Taub, his ex-wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Monday, Taub told KQED that she and DePape had been divorced for nine years, and DePape had been living in friend’s garages while working odd jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before being banned from the second floor of the Hall of Justice, Taub — who is known around the Bay Area for her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/80769/live-at-2-p-m-san-francisco-supervisors-consider-nudity-ban-tiny-apartments\">nudist protests at City Hall\u003c/a> — danced in the courthouse hallway, twirling in circles with headphones in her ears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "During closing arguments, the San Francisco judge in the case barred the ex-wife of David DePape from court, citing attempts to sway the jury.",
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"title": "Ex-Wife of Man Who Attacked Paul Pelosi Is Barred From Court as Jury Deliberates | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>Updated 5:50 p.m. Tuesday\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state charges against \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/david-depape\">David DePape\u003c/a>, who is on trial for a second time for breaking into the home of former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and attacking her husband, are now in the hands of 12 jurors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But before the defense could give its closing arguments on Tuesday, Judge Harry Dorfman barred Gypsy Taub, DePape’s ex-wife, from attending the proceedings or even being on the second floor of the San Francisco courthouse where lawyers, reporters and the jury gathered outside the courtroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s rare that I order someone excluded from the courtroom,” Dorfman said. “The line for me is when a member of the public attempts to influence a member of the jury.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prior to Dorfman’s order, graffiti was found in the women’s bathroom nearest the courtroom, which contained a website address DePape’s family set up last year, proclaiming his innocence. On Monday, Taub handed out printed pieces of paper with the link to the website, as well as her phone number and email address. She even told reporters she was running the site to cast doubt on the state’s evidence in the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting at noon Tuesday, the jury began deliberating DePape’s fate on five charges: burglary, felony false imprisonment of an elder, threatening a public official, kidnapping and intimidating a witness. Dorfman \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989279/sf-judge-tosses-3-state-charges-against-man-who-attacked-nancy-pelosis-husband\">dismissed three other charges \u003c/a>— attempted murder, assault with a deadly weapon and elder abuse — after the defense successfully argued DePape had already been tried for those crimes in federal court, where he was convicted and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987892/paul-pelosis-attacker-apologizes-at-resentencing-but-prison-term-is-unchanged\">sentenced last month to 30 years in prison\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In their closing arguments, both the prosecution and defense painted DePape, 44, as someone who went too far down the rabbit hole of YouTube conspiracy theories, leaving him to believe the government to be corrupt and that Hollywood was tied up in a large pedophile ring. Taub, who has also embraced conspiracy theories, heavily influenced his actions and “inflicted immeasurable harm to his mental state,” DePape’s defense had argued in federal court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Led by his belief in those theories, DePape went to the Pelosis’ San Francisco home after 2 a.m. on Oct. 28, 2022, in search of the House speaker. He used a hammer to smash in the downstairs patio door and his 6-foot-4, 300-pound body to push open a heavy wood door, bursting through the doors of the couple’s third-floor bedroom where only Paul Pelosi was asleep, according to court testimony.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990965\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990965\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9675-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Public defender Adam Lipson gives his closing arguments in the state trial of David DePape in San Francisco Superior Court on June 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Where’s Nancy?” Paul Pelosi testified that DePape said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors again played the 911 call Paul Pelosi made over the speaker phone in their bedroom bathroom, with Assistant District Attorney Phoebe Maffei telling the jury it would make more sense now that they had all the details of those early morning hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My name is David,” DePape said on the call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Who is David?” the 911 operator said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know,” Paul Pelosi said. “He says he’s a friend, but he’s not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prosecutors repeatedly played body camera video from two Capitol Police officers who responded to the home following Paul Pelosi’s call to 911 to find him and DePape standing next to each other, trying to gain control of a claw hammer in DePape’s hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Drop the hammer,” one officer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Nope,” DePape replied before striking Pelosi multiple times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jurors heard from investigators and received transcripts of DePape’s testimony from his federal trial, where a \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11967595/david-depape-found-guilty-in-paul-pelosi-hammer-attack\">jury found him guilty in November\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maffei said DePape spent months planning a “rampage” with a list of targets and showed up to the Pelosi home “prepared for a lengthy standoff.” DePape wanted to confront Pelosi and interrogate her about “Russiagate,” an online conspiracy theory regarding the investigation into Russian interference in U.S. elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>DePape brought a sledgehammer to then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s home with one purpose, Maffei said: “He wanted to break her kneecaps, so she would be wheeled onto the floor of Congress. So people would know there are consequences.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>DePape also had two GoPro cameras with him, “so his hands could be free while he maimed her and filmed her,” which he could then post online, acting as fodder for people like him researching conspiracy theories, Maffei said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In his closing, San Francisco Public Defender Adam Lipson told the jury that DePape was guilty of a few of the charges, including first-degree residential burglary and dissuading a witness, and guilty of at least attempting to falsely imprison Paul Pelosi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue, at least to the defense, was the charge of threatening the family of a public official. Lipson argued that the threats DePape issued to Paul Pelosi — like saying he couldn’t stop him from going onto his next targets — had nothing to do with his wife’s position in government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had nothing to do with Nancy Pelosi or her official duties,” Lipson said. “They don’t have the intent in this case.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lipson also argued that DePape wasn’t holding Paul Pelosi hostage to get something from his wife, claiming the video he wanted to make of Pelosi confessing to lies he said she had told about Russiagate wasn’t a thing of value.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her rebuttal, Maffei said there was great value to someone who said he was “impassioned about the lies coming out of Washington, D.C.” in getting the speaker of the House to admit to crimes in her own home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990952\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990952\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/IMG_9672-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A courtroom sketch depicts Gypsy Taub being escorted out of the courtroom in the state trial of David DePape in San Francisco Superior Court on June 18, 2024. \u003ccite>(Vicki Behringer for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This plan all along had been to get to Nancy Pelosi,” Maffei said. “He fully expected to be knocking out her kneecaps to get the confession he wanted. That makes clear the value of the video he wanted to make.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maffei said the evidence presented at trial showed DePape’s plan wasn’t a good one, but it was a “thoroughly thought-through plan” that included targeting Pelosi, actor Tom Hanks, former Vice President Mike Pence, a professor in San Francisco and even Taub, his ex-wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Monday, Taub told KQED that she and DePape had been divorced for nine years, and DePape had been living in friend’s garages while working odd jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before being banned from the second floor of the Hall of Justice, Taub — who is known around the Bay Area for her \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/80769/live-at-2-p-m-san-francisco-supervisors-consider-nudity-ban-tiny-apartments\">nudist protests at City Hall\u003c/a> — danced in the courthouse hallway, twirling in circles with headphones in her ears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "bonus-right-to-know-s2-new-folsom",
"title": "BONUS: Right to Know | S2: New Folsom",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was made possible by the passage of a groundbreaking law enforcement sunshine bill in 2018. Today we talk to California State Senator Nancy Skinner, who co-authored the state’s “Right to Know Act,” about the legacy of her landmark bill, ongoing obstacles to transparency, and the need for accountability in California prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4741087741\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sen. Skinner’s work on law enforcement transparency, including The Right to Know Act (SB 1421) and SB 16, by visiting her \u003ca href=\"https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">webpage\u003c/a>. The \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a>, a coalition of newsrooms, provides insights into how these open-records acts are being implemented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode briefly references violence, sexual assault, and suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone, Sukey here. I’ve got a conversation with a very special guest to share with you in this bonus episode of On Our Watch. Those internal affairs recordings that you heard in this podcast, both in Season One and in Season Two, never would have been made public without California State Senator \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nancy Skinner\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She authored a landmark police transparency bill — Senate Bill 1421 — which was signed into law in 2018 as the Right to Know Act. This law finally broke through decades of secrecy in the state, and she further expanded it a few years later with SB 16. Skinner is serving her final term in the legislature this year and joined me to talk about her legacy, the ongoing barriers to transparency, and I was able to share with her some of what we found out about use of force at New Folsom and the crisis among correctional staff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining me, Senator. As the architect of this law, which has done so much for law enforcement transparency in California, I wanted to bring you on the podcast to reflect on what’s changed in the past five years. You know, where you still see the need for improvement in terms of transparency. But before we get into all that, can you also just give us a little insight into how the law came to be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certainly, and thank you for doing the podcast and for focusing on this very important issue. Back in the 70s, California passed a law that blocked public access to any and all records related to police conduct. And if you compare that to California’s Public Records Act, where you can pretty much request or receive any info you might want about a city or county employee, whether they’re a librarian or a street sweeper, you can find out anything. It doesn’t even have to be misconduct. But not police. They were the one category of, say, city or county employees, just as an example, where you could get no information. So California had almost a 50 year block and a total secrecy on police records, which made us arguably the least transparent state in the US of A. Which is odd when you consider, you know, what we pride ourselves about. And there were numerous previous attempts by other legislators. And when those efforts came around, when I was in the Assembly, I voted yes on each one of them, but none of them made it. I can tell you a little bit more about then why my staff and I in 2018 decided to act. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, tell me about that. Like what made the conditions kind of ripe for it to to finally go through in 2018? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were a number of well publicized law enforcement incidents, whether it’s Rodney King or other things, Oscar Grant, the shooting at the BART platform on a New Year’s Eve, you know, where the public was like, “Hey, what happened? What went on? And were these people investigated and or did the police act justifiably, you know, what were the conditions?” But we couldn’t find out. So, you know, there’s always been some high profile incidents, but there just seemed to be much more public attention to a number of high profile incidents in 2018, in that time period, where there was an openness for some access to police records. So those were some of the things that then made my staff and I sit down and think, “Okay, if we’re going to attempt this, given that every attempt prior has failed, how are we going to frame it?” And we thought, “All right, we’re going to focus on three specific areas. If an officer kills someone or causes great bodily injury or used a gun on someone, that those are things that of course the public feels like, ‘Hey, I want to know what happened there.’ If there was sexual assault by an officer on a member of the public, or if an officer is engaged in falsifying records or dishonesty, tampering of evidence, that kind of thing.” So we thought, “Those three who could, who could in a justifiably or with their head held up high, argue that those things should not be made publicly available.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law, The Right to Know Act, went into effect, actually before the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the massive protests, which was really interesting just as a reporter, to be equipped when that happened to begin to respond to questions here in California about police departments, we finally were able to get some answers and to get some transparency. In the last season of this podcast, we were able to find out new details about the killing of Oscar Grant that were really impactful for the family. And also, I think really important and understanding that like seminal incident for you, you know, what’s the most gratifying impact that you’ve seen from the law that you’re the most proud of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s talk the Oscar Grant situation. The Fruitvale Bart station is in my district. Oscar Grant was my constituent. I know now his mother very well. His uncle, Uncle Bobby, various other family members. And, when that incident occurred, BART itself did not have good police review. And so that was one of the big issues that people felt like, “Wow, BART doesn’t even have an independent review board of their police. And of course, we can’t get records on this incident.” And of course, the family, I mean, they were kept in the dark until there were the lawsuits. I mean, sure, there were charges taken against the officer who killed Oscar Grant. That officer was Johannes Mehserle. But the only information they got was that which was revealed in court. They had no other information, and it was just horrible to watch that. So I was very, very happy when 1421 passed. That immediately of course, Oscar Grant’s family requested those records. It took a while for BART to release them, but they did finally get them, and it brought a lot of closure for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now let’s go to: how does public safety work? How do we achieve public safety? It’s not just having police in our communities. It’s that the police have the cooperation and respect from community members. So from my point of view, if we know that our police departments and our law enforcement agencies take misconduct seriously and that they hold officers accountable for misconduct, then we’re going to trust them more. And when we get the records, it lets us know, “Hey, you know, it was officer X accused of anything? And if so, what steps did our police department take in investigating officer X? And then, what consequences were there?” That’s why having access to these records is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And where is the conversation around law enforcement transparency now? Like what have you heard from your constituents? What are the conversations you have with other lawmakers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, we’ve discussed already that 1421, the first attempt that was successful in over 40 years was modest. And then we did SB 16, because we saw, you know, whether it was George Floyd or other incidents — we just saw that look, racial bias is a legitimate thing for the public to know. Are there a set of officers in a particular department that have, you know, umpteen numbers of complaints around racial bias that have been investigated and upheld? And then some of the other things that SB 16 did was look at what other kinds of excessive use of force — so not just the gun. There are many other types of excessive force. Or the other thing we wanted to ensure, let’s say you’re an officer who, under 1421 that you had some falsifying of records, you had committed some dishonesty. And we you know, we want to find out about this. Well, you quit the force before the investigation is completed. So then it’s not on your personnel record and it’s not available to me. So then you go and get hired by another police agency. So basically, by not requiring that records follow the officer and that each agency who hires an officer requests explicitly whether there were, you know, such investigations on that officer — we allow bad apples to move around to different law enforcement agencies. So that was another really important improvement of SB 16. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, there are probably other legitimate things that the public has the right to know that aren’t covered yet in 1421 or 16. And, you know, we can talk about some of that, I have ideas. Somebody in the future will have to do them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that we’ve seen, you know, in recent years, especially like since the passage of the Right to Know Act, are these memorandums that are being entered into between the employers- the employing agency and the unions, basically giving notice or agreeing to give notice to any officer who is named in their records before they’re released. And, you know, in some lights, like you can see how that makes sense, right? Like, oh, my name is going to go out to the public. I would like to know that as an individual. But I think my concern from a transparency perspective is that it also gives the ability then for the union lawyers to intervene and say, oh, this is actually not a discloseable record. And they get kind of a first shot at claiming that it’s non-discloseable before the public gets a chance to look at the underlying misconduct. And so I just wanted to know if you’ve heard anything about that or you know if you have any thoughts on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve definitely heard some about it. And I’ll preface my next set of comments about it with, look, police officers have a very difficult job. I do not envy police officers. Every time they walk out of their door, meaning, you know, they leave home to go to work in uniform, they take their lives in their hands. I’m careful about the way I do legislation, such as both SB 1421 and SB 16, to legitimately give our officers some right to privacy. Their names should not be disclosed when it’s not appropriate. We don’t need them to be targets if they have not, you know, really engaged in serious misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m very, very protective of that privacy. And I also respect their ability to have a collective bargaining unit, to be in a union. Now, on the other hand, it’s I don’t like MOU agreements that unnecessarily or unlawfully delay the release of records that the public have a right to know about. So it is a balance. We want to protect their privacy, but we do not want MOUs that are counter to good laws that we have passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At my organization, KQED, you know, we’ve really made a push statewide to try and get as many of these internal records as possible to help the public, you know, gain access and understanding of these, you know, key public institutions — our local police departments, state law enforcement agencies. And most recently, my focus has really been on the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, which is the largest employer of peace officers in the state and is also one of the most kind of, obscure, not obscure agencies, but opaque. Yeah, very, you know, hard, hard to see inside of it’s a closed world, literally. You know, with everything happens behind these walls. And, you know, one thing that we were able to find out by, you know, utilizing the public records law by utilizing the Right to Know Act, was the incredibly high number of these very serious use of force incidents at this one prison, California State Prison, Sacramento, which is also kind of colloquially known as New Folsom. And I was just wondering, like in your years kind of on the public Safety Committee and, you know, overseeing CDCR and other, via other committees, if this prison had come to your attention before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, first, this is exactly the proof of the validity and the need for bills like 1421 and SB 16 — to enable us to get that information about… If we have a particular prison that has far higher incidence, then we have to wonder, what is it about the culture at that prison that creates this kind of violence? Staff on incarcerated individual violence, which your request of the record seems to indicate. Because we, interestingly, even legislators, I can’t just go to a prison unannounced and visit it. No, there’s all kinds of rules that prohibit. And California now, you know, we already talked about we had the 40 year kind of, 50 year really blackout on these records. Well, we’ve had almost an equivalent number of years where we’ve denied media access to our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And again, this is where we are an outlier. Many, many states, Maine, Rhode Island, many others allow much more journalistic access to their prisons than California does. Which is why I’m carrying a bill this year, SB 254, which would restore limited access of news media to our California prisons, as well as access to our judicial branch and legislators to be able to, you know, go in and check out the conditions in our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I chair California’s Women’s Caucus, which is now 50 strong. We have 50 women in the legislature out of 120. So we’re really proud of that. But we’ve been focused on there’s two women’s state prisons. And just this year we have a situation where a D.A. in, I believe it’s Madera County, has charged one officer from our facility in Chowchilla — our women’s facility in Chowchilla — charged that officer with 90 counts of sexual assault against some 16 different incarcerated individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the horrific part was that he did this sexual assault while these women were waiting to go before the parole board. So here you are. You’re prepping yourself. You know, this is the determination of whether you can go free or not. And this man is taking you into a room and assaulting you. I mean, it is beyond horrific. So the Women’s Caucus, we have gotten very involved in that. We did a trip to that prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we don’t have a comprehensive set of things that we’re trying to enact to change the conditions, but we certainly have strengthened California’s Office of the Inspector General over our prisons, for the incarcerated individuals to get complaints of this sort of behavior to the inspector general rather than just to officials within the prison therein. Because, of course, when you’re in that kind of closed environment, you don’t know, is your complaint even going to be taken seriously? So those are some of the issues that having transparency, getting records, getting journalists into our prisons is going to help us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have, also in my reporting, talked to quite a few incarcerated women who, you know, experienced things themselves and also just experienced the brokenness of the grievance system. I think one of the, you know, very concerning patterns that we found in our reporting was just how many similar grievances we found piling up against a particular officer. So it was very easy to identify somebody who was repeatedly using very serious use of force and injuring people. And people were filing grievances on this person, but there was no upholding of it. There was no discipline. And a lot of that goes down to kind of the credibility issue that the incarcerated people filing the grievances didn’t have credibility, and it wasn’t captured on camera. And I think for some of the sexual assault instances, it’s been the same where it’s like piled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, the the officer I mentioned with the 80 counts against him, his name is Rod- Rodriguez. You know, he took the women in a room. He knew the camera was not there. There was no camera in the room that he took them. And, you know, that was definitely purposefully done. And it was over a number of years, the assaults. And it’s hard to imagine that no one else knew. So the other thing that we have to make sure is that whatever reforms we put in not only go after the perpetrator, but anyone who aids or abets or… Aids or abets the perpetrator or sees it and does nothing about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think that is going to be the key, which is also, I think, a really tough nut to crack, you know, which is the issue of the code of silence, the culture of fear inside CDCR. And that that is not just the people who are incarcerated, that’s staff as well. You know, medical staff that I’ve spoken to, psychiatric staff and also correctional officers, and they fear blowing the whistle. They fear coming forward. And they say if they do, you know, they fear that they will be, you know, labeled a rat by their fellow officers and mistreated by them. And then that administrators also, they’ll kind of blacklist them and put them off to the side. It will be very kind of subtle and hard to see retaliation, but that retaliation that they know will come or that they say they know will come. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The terrible, terrible irony of this mistreatment — this, in some cases, brutal conditions — in our prison facilities against our incarcerated individuals. The damage is not just the incarcerated individual. Our corrections officers, they have high rates of suicide. They have their average life expectancy is they die before age 60. While they can retire with great retirement benefits at, I think, age 52 or so. They don’t even live past that. And so the level of stress when you’re in a setting like that, where either you are yourself engaged in this, you know, very inhumane conditions, inhumane treatment — or that you are, you know, going against your own moral self to observing it — it damages everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is why I think Governor Newsom has adopted this Norway model. And a number of US legislators have taken trips. And I was one of them, who we’ve gone and seen the prisons in Norway and what they do instead and how they treat it. They look at their prison system as, “Yes, the individual committed a heinous act, however likely that individual at some point is going to go back home, is going to live in our community. So how do we use the time that we have them in custody to best bring them to a circumstance where they can be productive and healthy and contribute to their community instead of hurting it?” So I was very, very happy to see Governor Newsom embrace that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You brought up, you know, officer suicide, which was, you know, a really recurrent theme and and problem that we found in our reporting as well. And I think one thing that really shocked me was just how many suicides there were. You know, we found through talking to the correctional officers union, the CCPOA and other word of mouth sources that 31 officers died over a four year period by suicide between 2020 and 2024. And that was just a pretty staggering number and also not a complete number. And so I went to CDCR and asked them for their numbers, and they said, “We don’t track this.” And the fact that they said they don’t track this problem, which I feel is like the highest level red flag indicator of a mental health crisis in their employee base, I think is very problematic. I don’t know if you can comment on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, they should track it, and I feel that CCPOA should also, because there’s often tension between the legislature and CCPOA, that’s the prison guards union. But I think if- the legislature in general, we don’t want unhealthy work conditions for anyone. And here this is one of our largest base of state workers. And the consequences of bad conditions on the job for them have great consequences, not only on them, as you’ve indicated with the suicides, but also just their, you know, their life expectancy rate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also has bad consequences on the individuals who are in the prison. And while California hasn’t embraced completely Norway’s sense that, “Look, our role at prisons is not focused really on punishment, but it should be to prepare you to go home.” The reality is the majority of our people go home, too. In other words, the majority of people that we’re holding in a state prison eventually go home. So what good does it do if we send them home damaged? And what good does it do if the employees who are in charge of them in custody are also damaged? None of that is healthy. So it’s one thing I’ve done a lot is engaged with our CCPOA to, you know, really work with them together to kind of embrace, “Hey, we could do it differently and it could be much improved for you, the worker and for that individual who’s being held by us.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. I know I’ve taken up a lot of your time, and I just so appreciate it. And I wanted to know, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about that you want to bring up today or talk about on the podcast? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I- this is my last year in the legislature, so I won’t get to, you know, add more police transparency, at least as a legislator for the moment. But I certainly, as chair of the Women’s Caucus, we have engaged more in these issues because I really hope that more of my colleagues that are going to continue in the legislature beyond me, will, will really embrace the importance of, that we have a good carceral system. And I know for some people that just putting those two words together is from their, their point of view, an oxymoron. But public safety is our objective. And having a inhumane system does not help public safety. And I think more of my women colleagues are understanding that. And we’re even- we’ve arranged a trip to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland for some women legislators in September to visit their women’s carceral facilities and to see how they’re doing it differently in those countries, to see what lessons learned we can bring home to California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for your time, Senator. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about the Right to Know Act and other law enforcement transparency bills, we’ll include links in the episode description. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa, final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr.; Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News; and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "BONUS: Right to Know | S2: New Folsom | KQED",
"description": "On Our Watch was made possible by the passage of a groundbreaking law enforcement sunshine bill in 2018. Today we talk to California State Senator Nancy Skinner, who co-authored the state’s “Right to Know Act," about the legacy of her landmark bill, ongoing obstacles to transparency, and the need for accountability in California prisons.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On Our Watch \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was made possible by the passage of a groundbreaking law enforcement sunshine bill in 2018. Today we talk to California State Senator Nancy Skinner, who co-authored the state’s “Right to Know Act,” about the legacy of her landmark bill, ongoing obstacles to transparency, and the need for accountability in California prisons.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4741087741\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Learn more about Sen. Skinner’s work on law enforcement transparency, including The Right to Know Act (SB 1421) and SB 16, by visiting her \u003ca href=\"https://sd09.senate.ca.gov/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">webpage\u003c/a>. The \u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">California Reporting Project\u003c/a>, a coalition of newsrooms, provides insights into how these open-records acts are being implemented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode briefly references violence, sexual assault, and suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone, Sukey here. I’ve got a conversation with a very special guest to share with you in this bonus episode of On Our Watch. Those internal affairs recordings that you heard in this podcast, both in Season One and in Season Two, never would have been made public without California State Senator \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nancy Skinner\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. She authored a landmark police transparency bill — Senate Bill 1421 — which was signed into law in 2018 as the Right to Know Act. This law finally broke through decades of secrecy in the state, and she further expanded it a few years later with SB 16. Skinner is serving her final term in the legislature this year and joined me to talk about her legacy, the ongoing barriers to transparency, and I was able to share with her some of what we found out about use of force at New Folsom and the crisis among correctional staff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for joining me, Senator. As the architect of this law, which has done so much for law enforcement transparency in California, I wanted to bring you on the podcast to reflect on what’s changed in the past five years. You know, where you still see the need for improvement in terms of transparency. But before we get into all that, can you also just give us a little insight into how the law came to be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certainly, and thank you for doing the podcast and for focusing on this very important issue. Back in the 70s, California passed a law that blocked public access to any and all records related to police conduct. And if you compare that to California’s Public Records Act, where you can pretty much request or receive any info you might want about a city or county employee, whether they’re a librarian or a street sweeper, you can find out anything. It doesn’t even have to be misconduct. But not police. They were the one category of, say, city or county employees, just as an example, where you could get no information. So California had almost a 50 year block and a total secrecy on police records, which made us arguably the least transparent state in the US of A. Which is odd when you consider, you know, what we pride ourselves about. And there were numerous previous attempts by other legislators. And when those efforts came around, when I was in the Assembly, I voted yes on each one of them, but none of them made it. I can tell you a little bit more about then why my staff and I in 2018 decided to act. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, tell me about that. Like what made the conditions kind of ripe for it to to finally go through in 2018? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There were a number of well publicized law enforcement incidents, whether it’s Rodney King or other things, Oscar Grant, the shooting at the BART platform on a New Year’s Eve, you know, where the public was like, “Hey, what happened? What went on? And were these people investigated and or did the police act justifiably, you know, what were the conditions?” But we couldn’t find out. So, you know, there’s always been some high profile incidents, but there just seemed to be much more public attention to a number of high profile incidents in 2018, in that time period, where there was an openness for some access to police records. So those were some of the things that then made my staff and I sit down and think, “Okay, if we’re going to attempt this, given that every attempt prior has failed, how are we going to frame it?” And we thought, “All right, we’re going to focus on three specific areas. If an officer kills someone or causes great bodily injury or used a gun on someone, that those are things that of course the public feels like, ‘Hey, I want to know what happened there.’ If there was sexual assault by an officer on a member of the public, or if an officer is engaged in falsifying records or dishonesty, tampering of evidence, that kind of thing.” So we thought, “Those three who could, who could in a justifiably or with their head held up high, argue that those things should not be made publicly available.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The law, The Right to Know Act, went into effect, actually before the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis and the massive protests, which was really interesting just as a reporter, to be equipped when that happened to begin to respond to questions here in California about police departments, we finally were able to get some answers and to get some transparency. In the last season of this podcast, we were able to find out new details about the killing of Oscar Grant that were really impactful for the family. And also, I think really important and understanding that like seminal incident for you, you know, what’s the most gratifying impact that you’ve seen from the law that you’re the most proud of? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, let’s talk the Oscar Grant situation. The Fruitvale Bart station is in my district. Oscar Grant was my constituent. I know now his mother very well. His uncle, Uncle Bobby, various other family members. And, when that incident occurred, BART itself did not have good police review. And so that was one of the big issues that people felt like, “Wow, BART doesn’t even have an independent review board of their police. And of course, we can’t get records on this incident.” And of course, the family, I mean, they were kept in the dark until there were the lawsuits. I mean, sure, there were charges taken against the officer who killed Oscar Grant. That officer was Johannes Mehserle. But the only information they got was that which was revealed in court. They had no other information, and it was just horrible to watch that. So I was very, very happy when 1421 passed. That immediately of course, Oscar Grant’s family requested those records. It took a while for BART to release them, but they did finally get them, and it brought a lot of closure for them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But now let’s go to: how does public safety work? How do we achieve public safety? It’s not just having police in our communities. It’s that the police have the cooperation and respect from community members. So from my point of view, if we know that our police departments and our law enforcement agencies take misconduct seriously and that they hold officers accountable for misconduct, then we’re going to trust them more. And when we get the records, it lets us know, “Hey, you know, it was officer X accused of anything? And if so, what steps did our police department take in investigating officer X? And then, what consequences were there?” That’s why having access to these records is important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And where is the conversation around law enforcement transparency now? Like what have you heard from your constituents? What are the conversations you have with other lawmakers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, we’ve discussed already that 1421, the first attempt that was successful in over 40 years was modest. And then we did SB 16, because we saw, you know, whether it was George Floyd or other incidents — we just saw that look, racial bias is a legitimate thing for the public to know. Are there a set of officers in a particular department that have, you know, umpteen numbers of complaints around racial bias that have been investigated and upheld? And then some of the other things that SB 16 did was look at what other kinds of excessive use of force — so not just the gun. There are many other types of excessive force. Or the other thing we wanted to ensure, let’s say you’re an officer who, under 1421 that you had some falsifying of records, you had committed some dishonesty. And we you know, we want to find out about this. Well, you quit the force before the investigation is completed. So then it’s not on your personnel record and it’s not available to me. So then you go and get hired by another police agency. So basically, by not requiring that records follow the officer and that each agency who hires an officer requests explicitly whether there were, you know, such investigations on that officer — we allow bad apples to move around to different law enforcement agencies. So that was another really important improvement of SB 16. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But of course, there are probably other legitimate things that the public has the right to know that aren’t covered yet in 1421 or 16. And, you know, we can talk about some of that, I have ideas. Somebody in the future will have to do them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing that we’ve seen, you know, in recent years, especially like since the passage of the Right to Know Act, are these memorandums that are being entered into between the employers- the employing agency and the unions, basically giving notice or agreeing to give notice to any officer who is named in their records before they’re released. And, you know, in some lights, like you can see how that makes sense, right? Like, oh, my name is going to go out to the public. I would like to know that as an individual. But I think my concern from a transparency perspective is that it also gives the ability then for the union lawyers to intervene and say, oh, this is actually not a discloseable record. And they get kind of a first shot at claiming that it’s non-discloseable before the public gets a chance to look at the underlying misconduct. And so I just wanted to know if you’ve heard anything about that or you know if you have any thoughts on it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I’ve definitely heard some about it. And I’ll preface my next set of comments about it with, look, police officers have a very difficult job. I do not envy police officers. Every time they walk out of their door, meaning, you know, they leave home to go to work in uniform, they take their lives in their hands. I’m careful about the way I do legislation, such as both SB 1421 and SB 16, to legitimately give our officers some right to privacy. Their names should not be disclosed when it’s not appropriate. We don’t need them to be targets if they have not, you know, really engaged in serious misconduct. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’m very, very protective of that privacy. And I also respect their ability to have a collective bargaining unit, to be in a union. Now, on the other hand, it’s I don’t like MOU agreements that unnecessarily or unlawfully delay the release of records that the public have a right to know about. So it is a balance. We want to protect their privacy, but we do not want MOUs that are counter to good laws that we have passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At my organization, KQED, you know, we’ve really made a push statewide to try and get as many of these internal records as possible to help the public, you know, gain access and understanding of these, you know, key public institutions — our local police departments, state law enforcement agencies. And most recently, my focus has really been on the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, which is the largest employer of peace officers in the state and is also one of the most kind of, obscure, not obscure agencies, but opaque. Yeah, very, you know, hard, hard to see inside of it’s a closed world, literally. You know, with everything happens behind these walls. And, you know, one thing that we were able to find out by, you know, utilizing the public records law by utilizing the Right to Know Act, was the incredibly high number of these very serious use of force incidents at this one prison, California State Prison, Sacramento, which is also kind of colloquially known as New Folsom. And I was just wondering, like in your years kind of on the public Safety Committee and, you know, overseeing CDCR and other, via other committees, if this prison had come to your attention before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, first, this is exactly the proof of the validity and the need for bills like 1421 and SB 16 — to enable us to get that information about… If we have a particular prison that has far higher incidence, then we have to wonder, what is it about the culture at that prison that creates this kind of violence? Staff on incarcerated individual violence, which your request of the record seems to indicate. Because we, interestingly, even legislators, I can’t just go to a prison unannounced and visit it. No, there’s all kinds of rules that prohibit. And California now, you know, we already talked about we had the 40 year kind of, 50 year really blackout on these records. Well, we’ve had almost an equivalent number of years where we’ve denied media access to our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And again, this is where we are an outlier. Many, many states, Maine, Rhode Island, many others allow much more journalistic access to their prisons than California does. Which is why I’m carrying a bill this year, SB 254, which would restore limited access of news media to our California prisons, as well as access to our judicial branch and legislators to be able to, you know, go in and check out the conditions in our prisons. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I chair California’s Women’s Caucus, which is now 50 strong. We have 50 women in the legislature out of 120. So we’re really proud of that. But we’ve been focused on there’s two women’s state prisons. And just this year we have a situation where a D.A. in, I believe it’s Madera County, has charged one officer from our facility in Chowchilla — our women’s facility in Chowchilla — charged that officer with 90 counts of sexual assault against some 16 different incarcerated individuals. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the horrific part was that he did this sexual assault while these women were waiting to go before the parole board. So here you are. You’re prepping yourself. You know, this is the determination of whether you can go free or not. And this man is taking you into a room and assaulting you. I mean, it is beyond horrific. So the Women’s Caucus, we have gotten very involved in that. We did a trip to that prison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So far, we don’t have a comprehensive set of things that we’re trying to enact to change the conditions, but we certainly have strengthened California’s Office of the Inspector General over our prisons, for the incarcerated individuals to get complaints of this sort of behavior to the inspector general rather than just to officials within the prison therein. Because, of course, when you’re in that kind of closed environment, you don’t know, is your complaint even going to be taken seriously? So those are some of the issues that having transparency, getting records, getting journalists into our prisons is going to help us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have, also in my reporting, talked to quite a few incarcerated women who, you know, experienced things themselves and also just experienced the brokenness of the grievance system. I think one of the, you know, very concerning patterns that we found in our reporting was just how many similar grievances we found piling up against a particular officer. So it was very easy to identify somebody who was repeatedly using very serious use of force and injuring people. And people were filing grievances on this person, but there was no upholding of it. There was no discipline. And a lot of that goes down to kind of the credibility issue that the incarcerated people filing the grievances didn’t have credibility, and it wasn’t captured on camera. And I think for some of the sexual assault instances, it’s been the same where it’s like piled up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Well, the the officer I mentioned with the 80 counts against him, his name is Rod- Rodriguez. You know, he took the women in a room. He knew the camera was not there. There was no camera in the room that he took them. And, you know, that was definitely purposefully done. And it was over a number of years, the assaults. And it’s hard to imagine that no one else knew. So the other thing that we have to make sure is that whatever reforms we put in not only go after the perpetrator, but anyone who aids or abets or… Aids or abets the perpetrator or sees it and does nothing about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think that is going to be the key, which is also, I think, a really tough nut to crack, you know, which is the issue of the code of silence, the culture of fear inside CDCR. And that that is not just the people who are incarcerated, that’s staff as well. You know, medical staff that I’ve spoken to, psychiatric staff and also correctional officers, and they fear blowing the whistle. They fear coming forward. And they say if they do, you know, they fear that they will be, you know, labeled a rat by their fellow officers and mistreated by them. And then that administrators also, they’ll kind of blacklist them and put them off to the side. It will be very kind of subtle and hard to see retaliation, but that retaliation that they know will come or that they say they know will come. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The terrible, terrible irony of this mistreatment — this, in some cases, brutal conditions — in our prison facilities against our incarcerated individuals. The damage is not just the incarcerated individual. Our corrections officers, they have high rates of suicide. They have their average life expectancy is they die before age 60. While they can retire with great retirement benefits at, I think, age 52 or so. They don’t even live past that. And so the level of stress when you’re in a setting like that, where either you are yourself engaged in this, you know, very inhumane conditions, inhumane treatment — or that you are, you know, going against your own moral self to observing it — it damages everyone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this is why I think Governor Newsom has adopted this Norway model. And a number of US legislators have taken trips. And I was one of them, who we’ve gone and seen the prisons in Norway and what they do instead and how they treat it. They look at their prison system as, “Yes, the individual committed a heinous act, however likely that individual at some point is going to go back home, is going to live in our community. So how do we use the time that we have them in custody to best bring them to a circumstance where they can be productive and healthy and contribute to their community instead of hurting it?” So I was very, very happy to see Governor Newsom embrace that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You brought up, you know, officer suicide, which was, you know, a really recurrent theme and and problem that we found in our reporting as well. And I think one thing that really shocked me was just how many suicides there were. You know, we found through talking to the correctional officers union, the CCPOA and other word of mouth sources that 31 officers died over a four year period by suicide between 2020 and 2024. And that was just a pretty staggering number and also not a complete number. And so I went to CDCR and asked them for their numbers, and they said, “We don’t track this.” And the fact that they said they don’t track this problem, which I feel is like the highest level red flag indicator of a mental health crisis in their employee base, I think is very problematic. I don’t know if you can comment on that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, they should track it, and I feel that CCPOA should also, because there’s often tension between the legislature and CCPOA, that’s the prison guards union. But I think if- the legislature in general, we don’t want unhealthy work conditions for anyone. And here this is one of our largest base of state workers. And the consequences of bad conditions on the job for them have great consequences, not only on them, as you’ve indicated with the suicides, but also just their, you know, their life expectancy rate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it also has bad consequences on the individuals who are in the prison. And while California hasn’t embraced completely Norway’s sense that, “Look, our role at prisons is not focused really on punishment, but it should be to prepare you to go home.” The reality is the majority of our people go home, too. In other words, the majority of people that we’re holding in a state prison eventually go home. So what good does it do if we send them home damaged? And what good does it do if the employees who are in charge of them in custody are also damaged? None of that is healthy. So it’s one thing I’ve done a lot is engaged with our CCPOA to, you know, really work with them together to kind of embrace, “Hey, we could do it differently and it could be much improved for you, the worker and for that individual who’s being held by us.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. I know I’ve taken up a lot of your time, and I just so appreciate it. And I wanted to know, is there anything else that I didn’t ask you about that you want to bring up today or talk about on the podcast? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I- this is my last year in the legislature, so I won’t get to, you know, add more police transparency, at least as a legislator for the moment. But I certainly, as chair of the Women’s Caucus, we have engaged more in these issues because I really hope that more of my colleagues that are going to continue in the legislature beyond me, will, will really embrace the importance of, that we have a good carceral system. And I know for some people that just putting those two words together is from their, their point of view, an oxymoron. But public safety is our objective. And having a inhumane system does not help public safety. And I think more of my women colleagues are understanding that. And we’re even- we’ve arranged a trip to Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland for some women legislators in September to visit their women’s carceral facilities and to see how they’re doing it differently in those countries, to see what lessons learned we can bring home to California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for your time, Senator. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nancy Skinner:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about the Right to Know Act and other law enforcement transparency bills, we’ll include links in the episode description. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa, final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager; our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr.; Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News; and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>With retail theft increasing, California Democratic leadership is clashing with a coalition of law enforcement and business groups in a fierce political fight over how to crack down on the problem. State lawmakers are trying to preserve progressive policies and stay away from putting more people behind bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two most likely paths under consideration this year are \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-crime-ballot-initiative-signatures-theft-fentanyl-e4863b0eb0b8808ea8f5746c60780ba7\">a ballot initiative\u003c/a> to create harsher penalties for repeat offenders, and \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-legislation-5f045e9d346b570a69d395e949207f1f\">a legislative package\u003c/a> aimed at making it easier to go after professional crime rings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leaders behind the two efforts have accused one another of misleading voters and being unwilling to work toward a compromise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">How did we get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Both sides agree on the need to crack down, especially on \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/business-health-government-and-politics-california-coronavirus-pandemic-d0c6dc49ef4cd6d05f649a860bd72888\">large-scale thefts\u003c/a> in which groups of people brazenly rush into stores and take goods in plain sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of the escalating political fight is Proposition 47, a progressive ballot measure passed by voters in 2014 that reduced certain theft and drug possession offenses \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-160551360299\">from felonies to misdemeanors\u003c/a> — in part to mitigate overcrowding in jails and prisons. That includes nonviolent property crimes such as thefts under $950.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It has made it \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/business-california-theft-8dec92007049f1fa41f9e280882bcef6\">harder to arrest and punish\u003c/a> people who shoplift, law enforcement said. Researchers told lawmakers there’s no evidence linking the proposition to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ppic.org/publication/the-impact-of-proposition-47-on-crime-and-recidivism/\">increased violent crime rates\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">How are the two solutions different?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A coalition of district attorneys and businesses, mostly funded by big box retailers, is pushing for an initiative to bring harsh penalties for shoplifting and drug offenses. It would make theft of any amount a felony if the person already has two theft convictions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Possession of fentanyl would also become a felony, and those with multiple drug charges would be ordered to get treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ballot measure would still need to be certified by the Secretary of State before it could be placed on the ballot later this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s Democratic leadership, backed by Gov. Gavin Newsom, wants to keep the tough-on-crime measure \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-legislation-smash-grab-4472b135a8c811cffac2d35571a99cae\">off the November ballot\u003c/a>. They worry the ballot measure’s proposal would disproportionately criminalize low-income people and those with substance use issues rather than target ringleaders who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2024/02/16/san-diego-county-woman-charged-as-ringleader-of-retail-scheme-involving-millions-in-stolen-beauty-products/\">hire large groups of people to steal\u003c/a> goods for them to resell online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, lawmakers are fast-tracking a legislative package of 14 bills that would \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-ecommerce-0b0a9724e054ef32f2000663082b957a\">go after organized online reseller schemes\u003c/a> and auto thieves, and provide funding for drug addiction counselors. These proposals could become laws as early as this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">Do the efforts conflict?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If voters approve the tough-on-crime ballot initiative, Democratic leaders plan to void most measures in their own legislative package, citing potential conflicts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers were short on details about how the two paths conflict earlier this week. Later, they said they fear if both efforts succeed, law enforcement would be able to stack penalties and send more people to jails, leading to mass incarceration and overcrowded jails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a third of the measures in the package pose possible legal conflicts with the proposals in the ballot initiative, according to lawmakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ballot initiative campaign accused lawmakers of holding the proposals hostage to break up the coalition. Local district attorneys who backed the ballot campaign said both efforts could work together, with the ballot measure overriding the legislative package in case of legal conflicts.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">What happens next?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Backers of the ballot initiative said they’re still open to working with Democratic leadership but will only consider any solutions that involve rolling back Proposition 47.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"Related Stories\" postID=\"news_11982393,news_11982070,news_11979533\"]“We still stand ready to sit down with anybody in leadership to talk about the measure, but I don’t want to compromise,” Greg Totten, a retired district attorney and a leader of the ballot initiative campaign, said during a news conference this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom and Democratic leaders have until June 27 to negotiate to get the initiative off the ballot. Meanwhile, lawmakers have plans to deliver the legislative package to Newsom’s desk by next week for signing, despite \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/AlvaradoGilSD4/status/1800954802798723105\">growing concerns\u003c/a> from moderate Democrats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you look at the package that we put together, it’s very comprehensive and it addresses a number of details in the existing framework of the law,” Assemblymember Rick Zbur, author of a retail theft bill, told reporters. “It was never intended to be something that was stacked on to a ballot measure that removed the underpinnings of the basic law that we were trying to reform.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">How did we get here?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Both sides agree on the need to crack down, especially on \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/business-health-government-and-politics-california-coronavirus-pandemic-d0c6dc49ef4cd6d05f649a860bd72888\">large-scale thefts\u003c/a> in which groups of people brazenly rush into stores and take goods in plain sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of the escalating political fight is Proposition 47, a progressive ballot measure passed by voters in 2014 that reduced certain theft and drug possession offenses \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-160551360299\">from felonies to misdemeanors\u003c/a> — in part to mitigate overcrowding in jails and prisons. That includes nonviolent property crimes such as thefts under $950.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It has made it \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/business-california-theft-8dec92007049f1fa41f9e280882bcef6\">harder to arrest and punish\u003c/a> people who shoplift, law enforcement said. Researchers told lawmakers there’s no evidence linking the proposition to \u003ca href=\"https://www.ppic.org/publication/the-impact-of-proposition-47-on-crime-and-recidivism/\">increased violent crime rates\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">How are the two solutions different?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A coalition of district attorneys and businesses, mostly funded by big box retailers, is pushing for an initiative to bring harsh penalties for shoplifting and drug offenses. It would make theft of any amount a felony if the person already has two theft convictions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Possession of fentanyl would also become a felony, and those with multiple drug charges would be ordered to get treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ballot measure would still need to be certified by the Secretary of State before it could be placed on the ballot later this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s Democratic leadership, backed by Gov. Gavin Newsom, wants to keep the tough-on-crime measure \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-legislation-smash-grab-4472b135a8c811cffac2d35571a99cae\">off the November ballot\u003c/a>. They worry the ballot measure’s proposal would disproportionately criminalize low-income people and those with substance use issues rather than target ringleaders who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2024/02/16/san-diego-county-woman-charged-as-ringleader-of-retail-scheme-involving-millions-in-stolen-beauty-products/\">hire large groups of people to steal\u003c/a> goods for them to resell online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Instead, lawmakers are fast-tracking a legislative package of 14 bills that would \u003ca href=\"https://apnews.com/article/california-retail-theft-ecommerce-0b0a9724e054ef32f2000663082b957a\">go after organized online reseller schemes\u003c/a> and auto thieves, and provide funding for drug addiction counselors. These proposals could become laws as early as this month.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">Do the efforts conflict?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If voters approve the tough-on-crime ballot initiative, Democratic leaders plan to void most measures in their own legislative package, citing potential conflicts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers were short on details about how the two paths conflict earlier this week. Later, they said they fear if both efforts succeed, law enforcement would be able to stack penalties and send more people to jails, leading to mass incarceration and overcrowded jails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>About a third of the measures in the package pose possible legal conflicts with the proposals in the ballot initiative, according to lawmakers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ballot initiative campaign accused lawmakers of holding the proposals hostage to break up the coalition. Local district attorneys who backed the ballot campaign said both efforts could work together, with the ballot measure overriding the legislative package in case of legal conflicts.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 class=\"mb-0 pb-2 ap-font-bold\">What happens next?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Backers of the ballot initiative said they’re still open to working with Democratic leadership but will only consider any solutions that involve rolling back Proposition 47.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We still stand ready to sit down with anybody in leadership to talk about the measure, but I don’t want to compromise,” Greg Totten, a retired district attorney and a leader of the ballot initiative campaign, said during a news conference this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newsom and Democratic leaders have until June 27 to negotiate to get the initiative off the ballot. Meanwhile, lawmakers have plans to deliver the legislative package to Newsom’s desk by next week for signing, despite \u003ca href=\"https://x.com/AlvaradoGilSD4/status/1800954802798723105\">growing concerns\u003c/a> from moderate Democrats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you look at the package that we put together, it’s very comprehensive and it addresses a number of details in the existing framework of the law,” Assemblymember Rick Zbur, author of a retail theft bill, told reporters. “It was never intended to be something that was stacked on to a ballot measure that removed the underpinnings of the basic law that we were trying to reform.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "A Conversation With Banko Brown's Chosen Family",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On April 27, 2023, an armed security guard shot and killed a Black trans man named Banko Brown outside of a San Francisco Walgreens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown’s killing sparked outrage. But San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins decided not to charge the security guard who shot him, saying that he acted in self-defense. And just last Friday, Attorney General Rob Bonta’s office \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989756/california-ag-backs-decision-not-to-charge-guard-in-banko-brown-killing\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">announced that it supported that decision\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This announcement has crushed Banko Brown’s loved ones, including those who say that his killing was an example of the conditions that unhoused transgender people face in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sits down with Brown’s chosen family, to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco, and Banko’s life before his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9297731217\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode originally aired on Sept. 6, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On April 27, 2023, an armed security guard shot and killed a Black trans man named Banko Brown outside of a San Francisco Walgreens after he allegedly stole $14 worth of snacks. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown was homeless. And his killing sparked outrage. Many saw his death as the worst-case scenario for trans folks living unhoused in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite that outrage, San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins declined to prosecute the security guard, saying he acted in self defense. And even though Attorney General Rob Bonta promised to re-examine the case at the time, just last Friday his office backed Jenkins’ decision. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This announcement was a huge blow to Banko’s family and loved ones,, who are still grieving his death more than a year later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we’re sharing this episode from September of last year… My colleague Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s \u003c/span>chosen\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> family, to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco, Banko’s life before his death, and what it’ll take to truly make the city a safe place for all queer and trans people. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Homelessness is when you do not have rights to a space of your own. Banko never had a space of his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>My colleague and reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s shows and family to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco. Banko’s life before his death and what it’s going to take to truly make the city a safe place for queer and trans people. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>If you could just very briefly tell me a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself to folks who are listening with your name, who you are, and your relation to Banko.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Hello, my name is JuJu. I’m from the Young Woman’s Freedom Center. I’m a youth organizer. I officially met Banko maybe a year ago. But we have– we share relatives. His nieces and nephews are my little cousins. So, I’ve always known Banko, but we never spoke for about a year ago. And that’s when I introduced him to my sister. And he became my sister’s chosen child and I’m the auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>I’m Xavier. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom Center. He became my mentee. And that was during the pandemic. We were focused on a lot of projects that were going to empower trans masculinity. I wanted to make sure we had a group during the pandemic, like a peer to peer support group, because the pandemic was very hard for a lot of Transmasculine folks. A lot of them were essential workers. A lot of them were creators that lost jobs. Some of them were sex workers that lost jobs. So my focus was to empower those people and make sure that they were heard. And so Banko would come to those groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>My name’s Kazani. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom as well. We just had amazing, great conversations. Just always sparring with each other, bouncing back with, like, fun ideas. He uses a bright, outgoing apartment. Conversation was always immaculate, always amazing. Of he was a visionary. The struggle not only brought us together, but like I was able to, like, really build a relation with him based on, like, his gifts. He was very creative, his swag, his drip, like he was a trendsetter to me. He’s definitely inspirational to me to like, you know, him, me younger to me, like I always share with him. Like, bro, you give me so much confidence, you give me so much courage for me to be me. He didn’t even know it. But again, he was just natural at that. Whatever I remember of him is his drips, sauce, smile, hugs, goofiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>All the jokes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Hell yeah, hell yeah. He funny, he hella funny. We always was direct. He pushed me to always have hard conversations. Be honest, being honest. And so to have that and to tell somebody yes, to hold me accountable, I’ll take that any day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Banko was in and out of homelessness. And I wonder if you could talk about what was – what the housing situation was like for Banko and what you saw him go through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>When I first had met Banko, he was housed at some point. Then later on, when we lost another trans sister in the community, Ivory Nicole, that’s when, like, you know, stuff started to come out like, Oh, he’s looking for housing. He has nowhere to go. With only so much a person can do for an individual. It’s hard out here. I’ve been through. But for somebody to sleep on BART and got to blow time just to get it start today. If you go to the center, the $50 gift card or 25 gift card, no one’s gonna ever understand that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And we were talking about sleeping on Bart. We’re talking about Banko Banko. You said he drifted in and out of it yourself. Can you talk a little bit about homelessness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Navigating homelessness in San Francisco is hard. As hard and it’s expensive. No matter way. Being homeless is still expensive. I was homeless for about two years, maybe a year or two years. I didn’t know what to do and it just wasn’t working out. We were living in McGuire. I thought his his parents were going to take a friend, but that wasn’t the case. Then even shelters. Shelters don’t protect you. Shelters don’t protect my people either. Stuff gets stolen. There’s fights that break out. People look at us like we’re nasty. So it’s things like that that we still have to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Have you heard them say that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I’ve had problems at the outset and you can’t do nothing about it. You don’t lose this part. So it’s one of those things you got to say to sleep, wake up and do something productive. And so you get called for housing and permanent housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Where do we start?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Well, it would then go first, and then we’ll go on to your own experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko never had a space of his own. Banko had been in and out of shelter, in and out of people’s homes, sometimes even some people’s own sorrows. So let’s really break down what that really looks like when you are living in a one room space with another individual. You do not have privacy. Nine times out of ten, being a transmasculine identify person, especially being black, you have to render some type of services to stay there, whether it be sexual, whether it be drugs. So when we talk about black men and being fetishized, Banko dealt with a lot of that. And so those people would be the people to take him in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Here, kind of like not in a long Kazani like like you’ve been there. Have you been there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I mean, shit’s hella complex. So, for me personally, couch surfing always been my my survival tactic since I can remember of couch surfing, refusing to go to shelters because of horror stories I heard from former homies of going there and, you know, being violated. My mama, she went to prison when I was right after my fifth grade graduation in 2000. That’s when her body album dropped, too, so that that summer was live. So, you know, like, my mom was big shoes, shoes surviving, too. And so her like being sentenced to prison in state prison, being a young person, I mean, to pick up quick to hustle and survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When your mom went to prison, you talk about who who else was there for you, if anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Or family for her immediate family, blood relatives. My mom got nine siblings, eight total that are living. I’m also born and raised in San Francisco when my mom went to prison. They were figuring now they system impacted they in and out of jails allocated. So I just got a bed in somebody’s house or whatever that looks like in that moment. I just had to make sure I had to protect myself, take care of the things I have for the moment, and just keep trying to get through at 11 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And can we talk a little bit about Banko in terms of the safety? You know, obviously Banko went through the least safe thing you could imagine with the most terrible outcome you can imagine. What was Banko experiencing in terms of safety during this whole process?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko was actually experiencing a lot of issues with violence happening in some of the places that he was trying to stay at. Nobody’s perfect, you know, especially when we’re talking about community, right? People have all kinds of issues and trauma that they are that they’re trying to live through as well. I definitely know that there were a few times where, you know, he was upset from violent experiences that had taken place. And what we all do, right, we get upset. We want to do something about it. So, you know, really trying to calm him down to, like, see a different side of it, for him to just move through the trauma that he was experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I don’t know how much you all followed kind of the public discussion of what happened to Banko afterwards. A lot of what I heard was a kind of a questioning of like, what did Bianca’s trans identity or black trans identity have to do with the shooting, especially when the security guard themselves was was black. I wonder if you could talk a bit about for people who don’t understand what does Mango’s black trans identity have to do with what brought him there that day and what happened? And whoever wants to jump in idea or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So this is Xavier or what? What what that all has to do with is when you are a young, black, transmasculine identified person, people see that he walks in, he’s dark skinned, he has a hat on a t shirt, he has a little bit of a like a goatee or, you know, something growing in. And as another black man or being another man, there is a fight for power for who is the man for Banko. You know, the thought process is you look like a little boy or you’re trying to pretend to be a little boy. Because let’s be clear, Banko had not had, you know, top surgery. He had not been going through that part of of medical transitioning. So you have a masculine person with visible breast coming at you. You are going to now struggle for your manhood. I’m going to show you who’s boss is something that for people that are even lesbians who are more masculine looking. There is a struggle between men and any form of masculinity that they can see to them isn’t necessarily real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So it’s a it’s like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>It is a challenge. It very much is a challenge. I know this first experience. I have dealt with this my entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>And if I can just highlight that it’s true. And these are cases that’s not getting covered. And this is Juju speaking of Black Trans Men getting killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I wonder if we can shift a little. I do want to know how that support can come through from family. Are you at a point of acceptance with your family right now and if you could touch on that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Me and my mother understand what’s happening, but my father and my my siblings that my father has. They’re not. They were only produced by my father. My father’s children. They have a bit of a hard time. And so we don’t necessarily talk the way that people would think family should or relatives should. But, you know, my mother respects who I am. My mother understands what has what has taken place. And she’s accepted that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>I mean. Then if they’re very understanding our friends there with ties. But when I told my mom everything and broke it down that you don’t want to be a child, right. This kind of anything, you have to take a step back. My father, on the other hand, he’s more big on education. He didn’t. He taught him. He taught me, You don’t care what I do. He wants me to graduate and I’ll ever be like, so-and-so. I got it. You’ve been away. But I still had a heart and I still struggle. Identity came into play. I mean, it was still some some things going on at home. She understood. She knew, like, okay, as long as you’re safe, you know what? The protocols lie, you know, And I love you. I just I want to say this, too, because there was narratives being painted. Banko do have family that do care and love. But there was, you know, at some point everyone went their own ways. So I do want to just that on the record. He did have family that they can’t love, but he was looking for looking for a space. In people’s hearts to fill that void that he has been missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>This goes on for me. My mother, she told me straight up, like, be you, son. Be you, son. And for me, that’s a fucking privilege. Like, you know, for someone who’s being who they are, like me, like for my mom to just show up right away. How she was able to just accept me. For me, it was just like a restart of our relationship as a as a mother and son. She’s just a gift to me, you know? And so what I’ve been doing with my folks is just like, sharing my mama with them. You know, share my mama with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When you mean to share your mama, do you mean you share your mother with other transpeople who don’t have that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Trans people, all people, even when they struggle like my mom just signs up like, I love you, I forgive you. And so I share my mama with my folks. And it’s my duty to make sure to create spaces for folks to be themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>What I want to ask you all lastly was about joy, because we’ve been talking about hardship. We’ve been talking about really hard things. But the goal is joy, right? I mean, let’s talk about the mechanical and let’s talk about the heart to the mechanical part is if you had these city leaders who are all talking about what happened to Banko, what would you say needs to change? And then after that, I want you to tell me what your joy looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll start this, Xavier. I would say what needs to change is the systems in how they construct homelessness. There needs to be shelters specific for transmasculine folks. There needs to be shelters for trans people, period. But trans men need their own space. There needs to be more black, trans masculine leaders. There’s nobody else that can speak about black transness except for black trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And how about the joy? What is your joy look like right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>My joy looks like, you know the rest of the work that I do. The Bay Area Transmasculine calendar is doing a second premiere of a calendar that we started last year with a group of Transmasculine folks to continue to ensure that Transmasculine folks are seen and can receive joy in seeing and having representation of themselves in all bodies, in all forms of trans masculine bodies, and in all forms of trans masculine and different cultures and ethnicities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>That’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Did you figuring out the funding, figuring out where money can go to? I definitely believe that there should be more programs for black trans men, even from our community. My film Queens My Doors. We need to serve our queens, our triumph queens if I’m getting emotional. And it’s because I’m thinking about the joy part living and finding purpose. Picking up someone else’s purpose when they couldn’t find their purpose. And knowing that I’m here and I can also at least set some type of story for someone just to save surface and hopefully help another next person, next generation to continue to do this advocacy work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Because any changes you want to see and then tell us about your joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>More action. People need to really start, especially like these politicians. Folks move in and power like really, really start, you know, on the ground and get dirty with us. All the years of just all the years I’ve been living in living in the city, I have not seen nothing that has been pivotal yet, specifically tailored to supporting trans people of color, people that are our natives, the first couple folks that are still here. There’s so many things that we need. So many corporations as are going out to rent something, hotels that’s going to manage or that how do we take those metro shelters, make an independent living for folks without all the stipulations and the requirements, because that’s overwhelming for our people to having to jump through these hoops and things and having to retraumatize ourselves just to get a fucking bed. Come on, now, we’ve got to really redefine what a sanctuary in San Francisco. As for my joy. I really love what you said. You, you know, picking up somebody else’s purpose. And this moment, that’s what it is for me personally. Is it bringing up some of the joys, the joy and the beauty that I learned about Banko and where he was dreaming of envisioning of, and how do you incorporate it not just in the individual people, but in community, in people, in organizations, in how we just do life and learn how to grieve and love myself at the same time. Because I have to say he is not the last person. And so while I’m still here, I’m building on my armor because I’m doing God’s work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So would you say that Banko has influenced where your life is going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I think about his nieces and nephews. I really do every day. I wake up and you say their names and how they’re having a great day in the moment. That’s how I carry you. And that’s what I think of him every day. Because, again, trans people being here and we’re won’t keep coming here. Like it or not, you want to get on board whether you like it or not. We still here? We are forever going to be here. We take care of the village.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez in conversation with Xavier Davenport. JuJu Pikes-Prince and Kazani Kalani Finao. Their conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On April 27, 2023, an armed security guard shot and killed a Black trans man named Banko Brown outside of a San Francisco Walgreens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown’s killing sparked outrage. But San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins decided not to charge the security guard who shot him, saying that he acted in self-defense. And just last Friday, Attorney General Rob Bonta’s office \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989756/california-ag-backs-decision-not-to-charge-guard-in-banko-brown-killing\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">announced that it supported that decision\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This announcement has crushed Banko Brown’s loved ones, including those who say that his killing was an example of the conditions that unhoused transgender people face in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sits down with Brown’s chosen family, to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco, and Banko’s life before his death.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9297731217\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode originally aired on Sept. 6, 2023.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On April 27, 2023, an armed security guard shot and killed a Black trans man named Banko Brown outside of a San Francisco Walgreens after he allegedly stole $14 worth of snacks. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brown was homeless. And his killing sparked outrage. Many saw his death as the worst-case scenario for trans folks living unhoused in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite that outrage, San Francisco District Attorney Brooke Jenkins declined to prosecute the security guard, saying he acted in self defense. And even though Attorney General Rob Bonta promised to re-examine the case at the time, just last Friday his office backed Jenkins’ decision. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This announcement was a huge blow to Banko’s family and loved ones,, who are still grieving his death more than a year later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So today, we’re sharing this episode from September of last year… My colleague Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s \u003c/span>chosen\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> family, to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco, Banko’s life before his death, and what it’ll take to truly make the city a safe place for all queer and trans people. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Homelessness is when you do not have rights to a space of your own. Banko never had a space of his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>My colleague and reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez sat down with Banko Brown’s shows and family to discuss life as a homeless queer person in San Francisco. Banko’s life before his death and what it’s going to take to truly make the city a safe place for queer and trans people. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>If you could just very briefly tell me a little bit about yourself. Introduce yourself to folks who are listening with your name, who you are, and your relation to Banko.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Hello, my name is JuJu. I’m from the Young Woman’s Freedom Center. I’m a youth organizer. I officially met Banko maybe a year ago. But we have– we share relatives. His nieces and nephews are my little cousins. So, I’ve always known Banko, but we never spoke for about a year ago. And that’s when I introduced him to my sister. And he became my sister’s chosen child and I’m the auntie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>I’m Xavier. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom Center. He became my mentee. And that was during the pandemic. We were focused on a lot of projects that were going to empower trans masculinity. I wanted to make sure we had a group during the pandemic, like a peer to peer support group, because the pandemic was very hard for a lot of Transmasculine folks. A lot of them were essential workers. A lot of them were creators that lost jobs. Some of them were sex workers that lost jobs. So my focus was to empower those people and make sure that they were heard. And so Banko would come to those groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>My name’s Kazani. I met Banko through Young Woman’s Freedom as well. We just had amazing, great conversations. Just always sparring with each other, bouncing back with, like, fun ideas. He uses a bright, outgoing apartment. Conversation was always immaculate, always amazing. Of he was a visionary. The struggle not only brought us together, but like I was able to, like, really build a relation with him based on, like, his gifts. He was very creative, his swag, his drip, like he was a trendsetter to me. He’s definitely inspirational to me to like, you know, him, me younger to me, like I always share with him. Like, bro, you give me so much confidence, you give me so much courage for me to be me. He didn’t even know it. But again, he was just natural at that. Whatever I remember of him is his drips, sauce, smile, hugs, goofiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>All the jokes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Hell yeah, hell yeah. He funny, he hella funny. We always was direct. He pushed me to always have hard conversations. Be honest, being honest. And so to have that and to tell somebody yes, to hold me accountable, I’ll take that any day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Banko was in and out of homelessness. And I wonder if you could talk about what was – what the housing situation was like for Banko and what you saw him go through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>When I first had met Banko, he was housed at some point. Then later on, when we lost another trans sister in the community, Ivory Nicole, that’s when, like, you know, stuff started to come out like, Oh, he’s looking for housing. He has nowhere to go. With only so much a person can do for an individual. It’s hard out here. I’ve been through. But for somebody to sleep on BART and got to blow time just to get it start today. If you go to the center, the $50 gift card or 25 gift card, no one’s gonna ever understand that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And we were talking about sleeping on Bart. We’re talking about Banko Banko. You said he drifted in and out of it yourself. Can you talk a little bit about homelessness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Navigating homelessness in San Francisco is hard. As hard and it’s expensive. No matter way. Being homeless is still expensive. I was homeless for about two years, maybe a year or two years. I didn’t know what to do and it just wasn’t working out. We were living in McGuire. I thought his his parents were going to take a friend, but that wasn’t the case. Then even shelters. Shelters don’t protect you. Shelters don’t protect my people either. Stuff gets stolen. There’s fights that break out. People look at us like we’re nasty. So it’s things like that that we still have to navigate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Have you heard them say that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Yeah. I mean, I’ve had problems at the outset and you can’t do nothing about it. You don’t lose this part. So it’s one of those things you got to say to sleep, wake up and do something productive. And so you get called for housing and permanent housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Where do we start?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Well, it would then go first, and then we’ll go on to your own experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko never had a space of his own. Banko had been in and out of shelter, in and out of people’s homes, sometimes even some people’s own sorrows. So let’s really break down what that really looks like when you are living in a one room space with another individual. You do not have privacy. Nine times out of ten, being a transmasculine identify person, especially being black, you have to render some type of services to stay there, whether it be sexual, whether it be drugs. So when we talk about black men and being fetishized, Banko dealt with a lot of that. And so those people would be the people to take him in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Here, kind of like not in a long Kazani like like you’ve been there. Have you been there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I mean, shit’s hella complex. So, for me personally, couch surfing always been my my survival tactic since I can remember of couch surfing, refusing to go to shelters because of horror stories I heard from former homies of going there and, you know, being violated. My mama, she went to prison when I was right after my fifth grade graduation in 2000. That’s when her body album dropped, too, so that that summer was live. So, you know, like, my mom was big shoes, shoes surviving, too. And so her like being sentenced to prison in state prison, being a young person, I mean, to pick up quick to hustle and survive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When your mom went to prison, you talk about who who else was there for you, if anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Or family for her immediate family, blood relatives. My mom got nine siblings, eight total that are living. I’m also born and raised in San Francisco when my mom went to prison. They were figuring now they system impacted they in and out of jails allocated. So I just got a bed in somebody’s house or whatever that looks like in that moment. I just had to make sure I had to protect myself, take care of the things I have for the moment, and just keep trying to get through at 11 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And can we talk a little bit about Banko in terms of the safety? You know, obviously Banko went through the least safe thing you could imagine with the most terrible outcome you can imagine. What was Banko experiencing in terms of safety during this whole process?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Banko was actually experiencing a lot of issues with violence happening in some of the places that he was trying to stay at. Nobody’s perfect, you know, especially when we’re talking about community, right? People have all kinds of issues and trauma that they are that they’re trying to live through as well. I definitely know that there were a few times where, you know, he was upset from violent experiences that had taken place. And what we all do, right, we get upset. We want to do something about it. So, you know, really trying to calm him down to, like, see a different side of it, for him to just move through the trauma that he was experiencing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Yeah. And I don’t know how much you all followed kind of the public discussion of what happened to Banko afterwards. A lot of what I heard was a kind of a questioning of like, what did Bianca’s trans identity or black trans identity have to do with the shooting, especially when the security guard themselves was was black. I wonder if you could talk a bit about for people who don’t understand what does Mango’s black trans identity have to do with what brought him there that day and what happened? And whoever wants to jump in idea or something.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah. So this is Xavier or what? What what that all has to do with is when you are a young, black, transmasculine identified person, people see that he walks in, he’s dark skinned, he has a hat on a t shirt, he has a little bit of a like a goatee or, you know, something growing in. And as another black man or being another man, there is a fight for power for who is the man for Banko. You know, the thought process is you look like a little boy or you’re trying to pretend to be a little boy. Because let’s be clear, Banko had not had, you know, top surgery. He had not been going through that part of of medical transitioning. So you have a masculine person with visible breast coming at you. You are going to now struggle for your manhood. I’m going to show you who’s boss is something that for people that are even lesbians who are more masculine looking. There is a struggle between men and any form of masculinity that they can see to them isn’t necessarily real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So it’s a it’s like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>It is a challenge. It very much is a challenge. I know this first experience. I have dealt with this my entire life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>And if I can just highlight that it’s true. And these are cases that’s not getting covered. And this is Juju speaking of Black Trans Men getting killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>I wonder if we can shift a little. I do want to know how that support can come through from family. Are you at a point of acceptance with your family right now and if you could touch on that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Me and my mother understand what’s happening, but my father and my my siblings that my father has. They’re not. They were only produced by my father. My father’s children. They have a bit of a hard time. And so we don’t necessarily talk the way that people would think family should or relatives should. But, you know, my mother respects who I am. My mother understands what has what has taken place. And she’s accepted that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>I mean. Then if they’re very understanding our friends there with ties. But when I told my mom everything and broke it down that you don’t want to be a child, right. This kind of anything, you have to take a step back. My father, on the other hand, he’s more big on education. He didn’t. He taught him. He taught me, You don’t care what I do. He wants me to graduate and I’ll ever be like, so-and-so. I got it. You’ve been away. But I still had a heart and I still struggle. Identity came into play. I mean, it was still some some things going on at home. She understood. She knew, like, okay, as long as you’re safe, you know what? The protocols lie, you know, And I love you. I just I want to say this, too, because there was narratives being painted. Banko do have family that do care and love. But there was, you know, at some point everyone went their own ways. So I do want to just that on the record. He did have family that they can’t love, but he was looking for looking for a space. In people’s hearts to fill that void that he has been missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>This goes on for me. My mother, she told me straight up, like, be you, son. Be you, son. And for me, that’s a fucking privilege. Like, you know, for someone who’s being who they are, like me, like for my mom to just show up right away. How she was able to just accept me. For me, it was just like a restart of our relationship as a as a mother and son. She’s just a gift to me, you know? And so what I’ve been doing with my folks is just like, sharing my mama with them. You know, share my mama with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>When you mean to share your mama, do you mean you share your mother with other transpeople who don’t have that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>Trans people, all people, even when they struggle like my mom just signs up like, I love you, I forgive you. And so I share my mama with my folks. And it’s my duty to make sure to create spaces for folks to be themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>What I want to ask you all lastly was about joy, because we’ve been talking about hardship. We’ve been talking about really hard things. But the goal is joy, right? I mean, let’s talk about the mechanical and let’s talk about the heart to the mechanical part is if you had these city leaders who are all talking about what happened to Banko, what would you say needs to change? And then after that, I want you to tell me what your joy looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I’ll start this, Xavier. I would say what needs to change is the systems in how they construct homelessness. There needs to be shelters specific for transmasculine folks. There needs to be shelters for trans people, period. But trans men need their own space. There needs to be more black, trans masculine leaders. There’s nobody else that can speak about black transness except for black trans people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>And how about the joy? What is your joy look like right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Xavier Davenport: \u003c/strong>My joy looks like, you know the rest of the work that I do. The Bay Area Transmasculine calendar is doing a second premiere of a calendar that we started last year with a group of Transmasculine folks to continue to ensure that Transmasculine folks are seen and can receive joy in seeing and having representation of themselves in all bodies, in all forms of trans masculine bodies, and in all forms of trans masculine and different cultures and ethnicities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>That’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>JuJu Pikes-Prince: \u003c/strong>Did you figuring out the funding, figuring out where money can go to? I definitely believe that there should be more programs for black trans men, even from our community. My film Queens My Doors. We need to serve our queens, our triumph queens if I’m getting emotional. And it’s because I’m thinking about the joy part living and finding purpose. Picking up someone else’s purpose when they couldn’t find their purpose. And knowing that I’m here and I can also at least set some type of story for someone just to save surface and hopefully help another next person, next generation to continue to do this advocacy work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>Because any changes you want to see and then tell us about your joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>More action. People need to really start, especially like these politicians. Folks move in and power like really, really start, you know, on the ground and get dirty with us. All the years of just all the years I’ve been living in living in the city, I have not seen nothing that has been pivotal yet, specifically tailored to supporting trans people of color, people that are our natives, the first couple folks that are still here. There’s so many things that we need. So many corporations as are going out to rent something, hotels that’s going to manage or that how do we take those metro shelters, make an independent living for folks without all the stipulations and the requirements, because that’s overwhelming for our people to having to jump through these hoops and things and having to retraumatize ourselves just to get a fucking bed. Come on, now, we’ve got to really redefine what a sanctuary in San Francisco. As for my joy. I really love what you said. You, you know, picking up somebody else’s purpose. And this moment, that’s what it is for me personally. Is it bringing up some of the joys, the joy and the beauty that I learned about Banko and where he was dreaming of envisioning of, and how do you incorporate it not just in the individual people, but in community, in people, in organizations, in how we just do life and learn how to grieve and love myself at the same time. Because I have to say he is not the last person. And so while I’m still here, I’m building on my armor because I’m doing God’s work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez: \u003c/strong>So would you say that Banko has influenced where your life is going?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kazani Kalani Finao: \u003c/strong>I think about his nieces and nephews. I really do every day. I wake up and you say their names and how they’re having a great day in the moment. That’s how I carry you. And that’s what I think of him every day. Because, again, trans people being here and we’re won’t keep coming here. Like it or not, you want to get on board whether you like it or not. We still here? We are forever going to be here. We take care of the village.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter Joe Fitzgerald Rodriguez in conversation with Xavier Davenport. JuJu Pikes-Prince and Kazani Kalani Finao. Their conversation was cut down and edited by producer Maria Esquinca. It was edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. The Bay is a production of KQED in San Francisco. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Lawsuit Claims Alameda County DA Is Biased Against Asians. How Will It Impact the Recall?",
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"headTitle": "Lawsuit Claims Alameda County DA Is Biased Against Asians. How Will It Impact the Recall? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Patricia Lee, a former public information officer for Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price, is suing the county and Price, alleging Price made anti-Asian remarks and fired her in retaliation for speaking up about violations of public transparency laws. The \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_nkrX_dIyAhf4HjIzvEdzF74z1c50nX/view?usp=sharing\">lawsuit was filed\u003c/a> Wednesday in Alameda County Superior Court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyscanner.com/2024/03/04/courts/pamela-price-racial-discrimination-whistleblower-retaliation-claims/\">\u003cem>The Berkeley Scanner\u003c/em>\u003c/a> first reported Lee’s allegations in March. The lawsuit builds on previous claims of anti-Asian bias in Price’s administration. Her office denies any anti-Asian bias, but the lawsuit means the narrative likely isn’t going away anytime soon. That’s bad news for Price as she faces a recall election this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The context:\u003c/strong> Price has been criticized by some for her handling of two homicide cases with Asian victims in November 2021. Kevin Nishita, a security guard for a TV news crew, was killed during a robbery, and toddler Jasper Wu was killed by a stray bullet during an alleged gang-related shootout on Interstate 880 in Oakland. When Price took office in January 2023, her deputies removed special circumstances enhancements from both cases, eliminating the possibility of sentences of death or life without parole. The move was consistent with Price’s campaign stance. To some, the change made it seem like Asian victims were less important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Claims of bias from within the office have added fuel to these fears. In a May 2023 letter of resignation, former Deputy DA Rebecca Warren claimed Price’s chief assistant made racist statements about Somoans. Warren also characterized an email from Price regarding Wu’s death as condescending to Chinese Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The opposing view:\u003c/strong> Price resubmitted charges for the three defendants in Nishita’s case in February. In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.alcoda.org/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela-price-resubmits-charges-against-three-defendants-in-the-kevin-nishita-murder-case/\">press release\u003c/a>, her office highlighted the long sentences — 189, 151 and 78 years, respectively — the defendants would face if convicted of all counts. It was a pivot from her insistence on the campaign trail that long sentences don’t make communities safer — a stance backed by \u003ca href=\"https://perma.cc/2KJL-SAE8\">U.S. Department of Justice research\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later that month, Price attended a town hall in Oakland’s Chinatown to meet with residents and listen to their concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even in the midst of shouting and controversy and people having signs, we’re still having a conversation,” Price said, sitting alongside Trevelyon Jones, Oakland Police Department’s interim assistant chief. “Tell us what the issues are. We’re in the midst of a crisis, and yet we are all working to find solutions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The big picture:\u003c/strong> The racial dynamics at play here are hard to ignore. There is a long history of tension between Black and Asian communities in America (and a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/30/opinion/asian-black-americans-community.html\">long history of solidarity)\u003c/a>. Price is the county’s first Black district attorney, and she took office amidst a surge in anti-Asian hate crimes. Concerns the justice system wasn’t taking the anti-Asian violence seriously enough \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11915634/why-high-profile-attacks-on-sfs-asian-communities-rarely-lead-to-hate-crime-charges\">contributed to District Attorney Chesa Boudin’s recall in San Francisco in 2022\u003c/a>. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of the outcome of Lee’s lawsuit, the larger narrative it fits into is something Price will continue to contend with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s next:\u003c/strong> The county and the DA will likely ask the court to dismiss Lee’s case, but if that doesn’t work, they’ll have to decide whether to fight or settle. Settlement would wrap the issue quickly but could imply some admission of guilt, something recall supporters would not let go quietly. Taking the case to trial would drag out the controversy for months, ensuring this narrative would haunt Price throughout her campaign against the recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Patricia Lee, a former public information officer for Alameda County District Attorney Pamela Price, is suing the county and Price, alleging Price made anti-Asian remarks and fired her in retaliation for speaking up about violations of public transparency laws. The \u003ca href=\"https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_nkrX_dIyAhf4HjIzvEdzF74z1c50nX/view?usp=sharing\">lawsuit was filed\u003c/a> Wednesday in Alameda County Superior Court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyscanner.com/2024/03/04/courts/pamela-price-racial-discrimination-whistleblower-retaliation-claims/\">\u003cem>The Berkeley Scanner\u003c/em>\u003c/a> first reported Lee’s allegations in March. The lawsuit builds on previous claims of anti-Asian bias in Price’s administration. Her office denies any anti-Asian bias, but the lawsuit means the narrative likely isn’t going away anytime soon. That’s bad news for Price as she faces a recall election this fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The context:\u003c/strong> Price has been criticized by some for her handling of two homicide cases with Asian victims in November 2021. Kevin Nishita, a security guard for a TV news crew, was killed during a robbery, and toddler Jasper Wu was killed by a stray bullet during an alleged gang-related shootout on Interstate 880 in Oakland. When Price took office in January 2023, her deputies removed special circumstances enhancements from both cases, eliminating the possibility of sentences of death or life without parole. The move was consistent with Price’s campaign stance. To some, the change made it seem like Asian victims were less important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Claims of bias from within the office have added fuel to these fears. In a May 2023 letter of resignation, former Deputy DA Rebecca Warren claimed Price’s chief assistant made racist statements about Somoans. Warren also characterized an email from Price regarding Wu’s death as condescending to Chinese Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The opposing view:\u003c/strong> Price resubmitted charges for the three defendants in Nishita’s case in February. In a \u003ca href=\"https://www.alcoda.org/alameda-county-district-attorney-pamela-price-resubmits-charges-against-three-defendants-in-the-kevin-nishita-murder-case/\">press release\u003c/a>, her office highlighted the long sentences — 189, 151 and 78 years, respectively — the defendants would face if convicted of all counts. It was a pivot from her insistence on the campaign trail that long sentences don’t make communities safer — a stance backed by \u003ca href=\"https://perma.cc/2KJL-SAE8\">U.S. Department of Justice research\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later that month, Price attended a town hall in Oakland’s Chinatown to meet with residents and listen to their concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Even in the midst of shouting and controversy and people having signs, we’re still having a conversation,” Price said, sitting alongside Trevelyon Jones, Oakland Police Department’s interim assistant chief. “Tell us what the issues are. We’re in the midst of a crisis, and yet we are all working to find solutions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The big picture:\u003c/strong> The racial dynamics at play here are hard to ignore. There is a long history of tension between Black and Asian communities in America (and a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/30/opinion/asian-black-americans-community.html\">long history of solidarity)\u003c/a>. Price is the county’s first Black district attorney, and she took office amidst a surge in anti-Asian hate crimes. Concerns the justice system wasn’t taking the anti-Asian violence seriously enough \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11915634/why-high-profile-attacks-on-sfs-asian-communities-rarely-lead-to-hate-crime-charges\">contributed to District Attorney Chesa Boudin’s recall in San Francisco in 2022\u003c/a>. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Regardless of the outcome of Lee’s lawsuit, the larger narrative it fits into is something Price will continue to contend with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>What’s next:\u003c/strong> The county and the DA will likely ask the court to dismiss Lee’s case, but if that doesn’t work, they’ll have to decide whether to fight or settle. Settlement would wrap the issue quickly but could imply some admission of guilt, something recall supporters would not let go quietly. Taking the case to trial would drag out the controversy for months, ensuring this narrative would haunt Price throughout her campaign against the recall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Housing and homelessness. Mental health and fentanyl addiction. Public safety, public transit and police staffing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first opportunity for San Franciscans to see mayoral candidates make their case to be the city’s next mayor on a shared stage was Wednesday night. Hosted by City Arts & Lectures at the Sydney Goldstein Theater, the debate sold out the 1,600-seat auditorium. The YouTube audience hovered around 1,200 for most of the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between rattling off statistics, trading barbs and talking about their favorite burritos and drag queens, Mayor London Breed, former Mayor Mark Farrell, Daniel Lurie and Supervisors Aaron Peskin and Ahsha Safaí argued their visions for San Francisco’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Breed painted a rosy picture of the city, claiming that crime is down, homeless encampments are disappearing and businesses will soon see tax relief. Peskin dug down on positions partial to progressive Democrats, like funding affordable housing and hiring more union city workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell and Lurie described the city as a haven of crime, drug use and homelessness. Safai, an underdog candidate who lags in fundraising, struggled to raise his profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989776/san-franciscos-first-mayoral-debate-is-here-the-stakes-are-high\">stakes couldn’t be higher for San Francisco\u003c/a>, a city with seemingly intractable problems that have made national headlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her opening remarks, Breed said her opponents are tearing down San Francisco to win office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These guys have one thing in common — they want us to feel bad about San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990134\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2402px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990134\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2402\" height=\"1601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3.jpg 2402w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2402px) 100vw, 2402px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People fill the sidewalk in front of the Sydney Goldstein Theater before a San Francisco mayoral debate on June 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Farrell drew first blood, rebutting Lurie’s critique of his record funding the San Francisco Police Department. Lurie, the Levi Strauss heir, said the late Mayor Ed Lee wanted $6 million for the police, money Farrell allegedly refused to allocate when he was on the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Daniel, this is where your inexperience shows,” said Farrell, landing a zinger that caused a crowd eruption. “You have not been part of the budget committee in City Hall or mayor of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Safai swiped at Lurie’s lack of government service. Lurie responded by echoing a line he has used on the campaign trail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re going to talk about experience all night long. They’ve got a combined 70 years of experience on this stage. Look where it’s gotten us,” he said as he spread his arms in exasperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell and Lurie struggled at times to offer solutions that differ from what current elected officials are already implementing. When the candidates were asked what they could do to revive downtown, Farrell said San Francisco should give tax incentives for businesses. Breed and Peskin teamed up to put forward a ballot measure in November that would exempt 2,500 businesses from some city taxes while lowering taxes for hotels and entertainment organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we need to be incredibly pro-active with our business community and bring them back to the downtown core,” Farrell said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The debate was moderated by Manny Yekutiel, proprietor of the event space Manny’s and Heather Knight, San Francisco bureau chief of The New York Times. Yekutiel told the audience “not to clap, sneer or jeer.” That didn’t stop the crowd from intermittently booing. The candidates were civil even as they criticized their opponents. The exchanges between the moderators and the candidates were much lighter, providing comic relief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Are you a NIMBY?” Knight asked Peskin, using the acronym for Not in My Backyard, shorthand for homeowners who oppose housing construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin said his policies led to more housing construction than any other candidate on stage. He critiqued Farrell, ticking off affordable housing projects Farrell opposed while he was a supervisor. In his retort, Farrell said that Peskin relies too much on voter-backed bonds to build affordable housing instead of the free market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knight also drew laughs after forgetting to ask Safai a question she asked the other candidates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990133\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990133\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People fill the sidewalk in front of the Sydney Goldstein Theater before a San Francisco mayoral debate on June 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Breed seemed taken off guard when Yekutiel asked what she had done to solve \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11988252/sf-bribery-scandal-could-see-fishermans-wharf-restaurant-forced-out\">corruption\u003c/a> in her administration. Breed said she had not hired any of the people who were ensnared in the corruption scandal, omitting that former San Francisco Public Works Director \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11923588/disgraced-former-sf-public-works-chief-mohammed-nuru-sentenced-to-7-years-for-bribery-scheme\">Mohammed Nuru\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11955753/jury-convicts-top-sf-official-in-corruption-trial-here-are-5-takeaways\">Harlan Kelly\u003c/a>, the former general manager of the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission, were close allies. Both were found guilty of taking bribes and sentenced to prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As mayor, I’ve had to oversee the biggest corruption cleanup in city history,” Breed said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knight, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Live-updates-from-TotalMuni2018-12873525.php\">rode every bus, train, cable car and street car in the city in one day\u003c/a> during her time as a San Francisco Chronicle columnist, pressed the candidates on their solutions to save BART and Muni.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin touted his tax on Uber, Lyft and similar companies to help fund the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, and said pedestrian safety should be a priority. Lurie said it was important to make sure Muni is safe, noting that many Asian seniors are afraid to ride after some have been physically assaulted and endured racist slurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell said Muni needs to focus on its existing operations, not expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe strongly in our city’s transit-first policy,” said Farrell, who wants the cars that were banned in favor of transit and pedestrian safety back on Market Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When was the last time you rode a bike or Muni bus in San Francisco?” Knight asked Farrell. When he said he rode a bus just a few weeks ago, she requested the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The 1-California,” Farrell said, almost triumphantly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Approaches to homelessness by Lurie and Peskin represent a fundamental difference in views: Lurie’s solution assumes unhoused people flock to San Francisco for services, while Peskin’s asserts people who fall behind on rent are vulnerable to becoming homeless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to send the message to the country, to the world: You do not come to San Francisco to do drugs, to deal drugs or to sleep on our streets,” Lurie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin noted that 69 percent of people who are homeless lived in San Francisco before they were homeless, adding that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986991/peskin-ballot-measure-aims-to-pay-rent-for-thousands-of-low-income-households-in-sf\">rent assistance\u003c/a> can be a powerful tool to prevent homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I will make it my mission to prevent more homelessness before it happens,” Peskin said. “Every family we save from eviction is one less person living on our streets.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Housing and homelessness. Mental health and fentanyl addiction. Public safety, public transit and police staffing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first opportunity for San Franciscans to see mayoral candidates make their case to be the city’s next mayor on a shared stage was Wednesday night. Hosted by City Arts & Lectures at the Sydney Goldstein Theater, the debate sold out the 1,600-seat auditorium. The YouTube audience hovered around 1,200 for most of the event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Between rattling off statistics, trading barbs and talking about their favorite burritos and drag queens, Mayor London Breed, former Mayor Mark Farrell, Daniel Lurie and Supervisors Aaron Peskin and Ahsha Safaí argued their visions for San Francisco’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Breed painted a rosy picture of the city, claiming that crime is down, homeless encampments are disappearing and businesses will soon see tax relief. Peskin dug down on positions partial to progressive Democrats, like funding affordable housing and hiring more union city workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell and Lurie described the city as a haven of crime, drug use and homelessness. Safai, an underdog candidate who lags in fundraising, struggled to raise his profile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11989776/san-franciscos-first-mayoral-debate-is-here-the-stakes-are-high\">stakes couldn’t be higher for San Francisco\u003c/a>, a city with seemingly intractable problems that have made national headlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In her opening remarks, Breed said her opponents are tearing down San Francisco to win office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“These guys have one thing in common — they want us to feel bad about San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990134\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2402px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990134\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2402\" height=\"1601\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3.jpg 2402w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR3-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2402px) 100vw, 2402px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People fill the sidewalk in front of the Sydney Goldstein Theater before a San Francisco mayoral debate on June 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Farrell drew first blood, rebutting Lurie’s critique of his record funding the San Francisco Police Department. Lurie, the Levi Strauss heir, said the late Mayor Ed Lee wanted $6 million for the police, money Farrell allegedly refused to allocate when he was on the Board of Supervisors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Daniel, this is where your inexperience shows,” said Farrell, landing a zinger that caused a crowd eruption. “You have not been part of the budget committee in City Hall or mayor of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Safai swiped at Lurie’s lack of government service. Lurie responded by echoing a line he has used on the campaign trail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re going to talk about experience all night long. They’ve got a combined 70 years of experience on this stage. Look where it’s gotten us,” he said as he spread his arms in exasperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell and Lurie struggled at times to offer solutions that differ from what current elected officials are already implementing. When the candidates were asked what they could do to revive downtown, Farrell said San Francisco should give tax incentives for businesses. Breed and Peskin teamed up to put forward a ballot measure in November that would exempt 2,500 businesses from some city taxes while lowering taxes for hotels and entertainment organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we need to be incredibly pro-active with our business community and bring them back to the downtown core,” Farrell said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The debate was moderated by Manny Yekutiel, proprietor of the event space Manny’s and Heather Knight, San Francisco bureau chief of The New York Times. Yekutiel told the audience “not to clap, sneer or jeer.” That didn’t stop the crowd from intermittently booing. The candidates were civil even as they criticized their opponents. The exchanges between the moderators and the candidates were much lighter, providing comic relief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Are you a NIMBY?” Knight asked Peskin, using the acronym for Not in My Backyard, shorthand for homeowners who oppose housing construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin said his policies led to more housing construction than any other candidate on stage. He critiqued Farrell, ticking off affordable housing projects Farrell opposed while he was a supervisor. In his retort, Farrell said that Peskin relies too much on voter-backed bonds to build affordable housing instead of the free market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knight also drew laughs after forgetting to ask Safai a question she asked the other candidates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990133\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990133\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/SFMAYOR@-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People fill the sidewalk in front of the Sydney Goldstein Theater before a San Francisco mayoral debate on June 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Breed seemed taken off guard when Yekutiel asked what she had done to solve \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11988252/sf-bribery-scandal-could-see-fishermans-wharf-restaurant-forced-out\">corruption\u003c/a> in her administration. Breed said she had not hired any of the people who were ensnared in the corruption scandal, omitting that former San Francisco Public Works Director \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11923588/disgraced-former-sf-public-works-chief-mohammed-nuru-sentenced-to-7-years-for-bribery-scheme\">Mohammed Nuru\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11955753/jury-convicts-top-sf-official-in-corruption-trial-here-are-5-takeaways\">Harlan Kelly\u003c/a>, the former general manager of the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission, were close allies. Both were found guilty of taking bribes and sentenced to prison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As mayor, I’ve had to oversee the biggest corruption cleanup in city history,” Breed said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Knight, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Live-updates-from-TotalMuni2018-12873525.php\">rode every bus, train, cable car and street car in the city in one day\u003c/a> during her time as a San Francisco Chronicle columnist, pressed the candidates on their solutions to save BART and Muni.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin touted his tax on Uber, Lyft and similar companies to help fund the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, and said pedestrian safety should be a priority. Lurie said it was important to make sure Muni is safe, noting that many Asian seniors are afraid to ride after some have been physically assaulted and endured racist slurs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Farrell said Muni needs to focus on its existing operations, not expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I believe strongly in our city’s transit-first policy,” said Farrell, who wants the cars that were banned in favor of transit and pedestrian safety back on Market Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When was the last time you rode a bike or Muni bus in San Francisco?” Knight asked Farrell. When he said he rode a bus just a few weeks ago, she requested the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The 1-California,” Farrell said, almost triumphantly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Approaches to homelessness by Lurie and Peskin represent a fundamental difference in views: Lurie’s solution assumes unhoused people flock to San Francisco for services, while Peskin’s asserts people who fall behind on rent are vulnerable to becoming homeless.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to send the message to the country, to the world: You do not come to San Francisco to do drugs, to deal drugs or to sleep on our streets,” Lurie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peskin noted that 69 percent of people who are homeless lived in San Francisco before they were homeless, adding that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11986991/peskin-ballot-measure-aims-to-pay-rent-for-thousands-of-low-income-households-in-sf\">rent assistance\u003c/a> can be a powerful tool to prevent homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I will make it my mission to prevent more homelessness before it happens,” Peskin said. “Every family we save from eviction is one less person living on our streets.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cp>San Francisco police on Friday released surveillance images of a person of interest in connection with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985347/san-francisco-police-urged-to-take-alarming-racist-threats-seriously\">racist threats against Terry Williams\u003c/a>, an Alamo Square resident whose home was destroyed in a fire after he had received two menacing packages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police are asking for the public’s assistance in identifying the person, who “may have information about the case,” officials said in a news release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Video \u003ca href=\"https://vimeo.com/954505029?share=copy\">released by the San Francisco Police Department\u003c/a> shows a person wearing a black hood, black coat and black pants walking down a sidewalk and carrying what appears to be a brown paper bag. It is timestamped at 2:21 a.m. on May 5, the date that Williams found the second package.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-thumbnail wp-image-11989479\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1-160x202.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"202\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1-160x202.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1.png 373w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Police are asking for the public’s help identifying the person shown in the May 5 video. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Police Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The SFPD did not immediately respond to a request for further information about the person and their potential connection to the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The package that Williams, 49, found outside his Grove Street home on May 5 contained a doll painted in blackface with the words “Get out of the Alamo Square district” on the front, as well as a small plastic grenade and Ku Klux Klan imagery. It came after he found a similar package on April 26 containing another doll with a noose around its neck, racist slurs written on the doll and printouts of racist imagery.[aside postID=\"news_11985347,news_11987465\" label=\"Related Stories\"]“They said they’re going to exterminate me, eradicate me, that I don’t belong in this neighborhood,” Williams told KQED after the second incident. The essence of the message, he said, was, “It’s not a Black neighborhood no more — get out of here, you don’t belong here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks later, the home where Williams lived with his parents was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987465/neighbors-rally-again-to-support-san-francisco-dog-walker-following-house-fire\">destroyed in a fire\u003c/a>. The cause of the May 21 blaze has not been determined, and it remains under investigation by the San Francisco police and fire departments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lt. Mariano Elias, an SFFD spokesperson, said fire officials expect the investigative report to be completed within three weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SFPD, meanwhile, is investigating the racist packages as a hate crime. Anyone with information should call 415-575-4444 or text TIP411 and begin the message with “SFPD.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>San Francisco police on Friday released surveillance images of a person of interest in connection with \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11985347/san-francisco-police-urged-to-take-alarming-racist-threats-seriously\">racist threats against Terry Williams\u003c/a>, an Alamo Square resident whose home was destroyed in a fire after he had received two menacing packages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Police are asking for the public’s assistance in identifying the person, who “may have information about the case,” officials said in a news release.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Video \u003ca href=\"https://vimeo.com/954505029?share=copy\">released by the San Francisco Police Department\u003c/a> shows a person wearing a black hood, black coat and black pants walking down a sidewalk and carrying what appears to be a brown paper bag. It is timestamped at 2:21 a.m. on May 5, the date that Williams found the second package.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11989479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-thumbnail wp-image-11989479\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1-160x202.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"202\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1-160x202.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/capture-1-1.png 373w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Police are asking for the public’s help identifying the person shown in the May 5 video. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco Police Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The SFPD did not immediately respond to a request for further information about the person and their potential connection to the case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The package that Williams, 49, found outside his Grove Street home on May 5 contained a doll painted in blackface with the words “Get out of the Alamo Square district” on the front, as well as a small plastic grenade and Ku Klux Klan imagery. It came after he found a similar package on April 26 containing another doll with a noose around its neck, racist slurs written on the doll and printouts of racist imagery.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“They said they’re going to exterminate me, eradicate me, that I don’t belong in this neighborhood,” Williams told KQED after the second incident. The essence of the message, he said, was, “It’s not a Black neighborhood no more — get out of here, you don’t belong here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Weeks later, the home where Williams lived with his parents was \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11987465/neighbors-rally-again-to-support-san-francisco-dog-walker-following-house-fire\">destroyed in a fire\u003c/a>. The cause of the May 21 blaze has not been determined, and it remains under investigation by the San Francisco police and fire departments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lt. Mariano Elias, an SFFD spokesperson, said fire officials expect the investigative report to be completed within three weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The SFPD, meanwhile, is investigating the racist packages as a hate crime. Anyone with information should call 415-575-4444 or text TIP411 and begin the message with “SFPD.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003c/h2>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporting on prisons from the outside is often difficult; it’s a closed and secretive world. But there is also important reporting being done by people who are inside prison, which comes with dangers of its own. Sukey and Julie sit down with two formerly incarcerated journalists, Rahsaan Thomas and Jesse Vasquez, to talk about the challenges and opportunities of prison reporting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6919454101\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rahsaan Thomas is the Executive Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.empowermentave.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Empowerment Avenue\u003c/a> and a producer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.earhustlesq.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ear Hustle\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jesse Vasquez is the Executive Director of the \u003ca href=\"https://polleninitiative.org/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pollen Initiative\u003c/a> and former Editor-in-Chief of the \u003ca href=\"https://sanquentinnews.com/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">San Quentin News\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start. Just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references acts of violence. If you or someone you know needs support. We’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi and welcome back to another bonus episode of On Our Watch I’m \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Throughout reporting this season, my co-reporter \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie Small\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I knocked on a lot of closed doors, pored over hundreds of pages of documents that were often redacted beyond recognition, and our best hope of contacting a source in prison was usually to send a letter via snail mail and hope they responded. In general, reporting on prisons can be really difficult, finding sources and navigating the politics of a closed world. But in recent years, there’s also been a revival of the prison journalism movement. Newspapers and podcasts created from inside that world by incarcerated reporters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, Julie and I talk to two journalists who started their careers inside prison. Rahsaan “New York” Thomas, who consulted on this season of On Our Watch, is also a producer for the Ear Hustle podcast and started a nonprofit called Empowerment Avenue that supports incarcerated writers and artists. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was editor in chief of the San Quentin News newspaper and now directs a nonprofit called the Pollen Initiative, which provides multimedia training to other people in California prisons. Here’s our conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you, everybody, for coming here today to the various places that we are joining, joining each other from. Rahsaan, how did you become a journalist? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I became a journalist by accident and half way because of a scam. I arrived in the San Quentin prison yard after working on this book for like, maybe seven, eight, almost ten years. And, but the book was mostly handwritten and there was no way to really edit it. Like when you want to edit it, you have to rewrite it or retype it and it’s like… And so I wanted to work for San Quentin News because they had computers and I wanted to type my book and set a computer so I can get somebody to help me edit it and hopefully publish it and get it on the New York Times bestseller list and change the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I went in there with that mindset. But I started fell in love with journalism. They made me the, sports reporter. And at first I was like, I want to write about bigger and better issues. Sports just seems so limited. But then I realized that. There was some social justice things happening, some really beautiful human interest things happening on the basketball court because it was uniting worlds that never meet normally, like billionaires and millionaires were playing basketball with kids from the streets of Los Angeles. And so something beautiful happening. And I fell in love with writing. And I found out at the same time that my book was horrible. Nobody ever deserves to see it. I need to rewrite it anyway. And but I got so caught up with journalism I never got to finish the book. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I feel you, I’m a I’m a failed novelist and poet. So journalism. Same save the universe from my creative writing as well. Jesse, what was your journey to journalism? How did you become involved in this world? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I think my journey started with kind of like Rahsaan as an accident. I was more into daily journaling, and I was a pretty good writer in my academic, pursuits. Then I decided to transfer to San Quentin because I saw the San Quentin News join the Journalism Guild. And I fell in love with just telling people stories and meeting people in the yard and seeing what they were up to and making a difference in our community inside. I think journalism for me was what gave me purpose. In spite of the multiple life sentences that I was serving. It gave me an outlet to share people’s stories and make a difference while I was incarcerated. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now you’re an editor. Like, how how was that transition and what’s the difference in in your mind if there is one between the work that you did as a journalist and as an editor? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the huge difference is I have to think more in terms of management and structure, like it’s… Before it was just, you know, I want to tell impactful stories, powerful stories, you know, human interest stories. And then I realized that there’s, you know, a ripple effect to what we say, how we say it and to who we say it, depending on the platform that we’re using. And editing and overseeing the management of incarcerated produced content for, like an institutional publication like San Quentin News can be a bit tricky just because, you know, there’s certain things that we want to be mindful of when it comes to what we publish and produce. So it’s very it’s a very political position. I never understood that being an editor was very political, and you have to be very mindful of, you know, how you approach a subject, you know, not just because of the liabilities, you know, but also because we have a certain responsibility to the community that we represent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The San Quentin News is such a unique publication. I myself am an alum of that program. When I was in graduate school at UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, I got to go in with my professor, Bill Drummond, and work with some of the incarcerated journalists. And for me, you know, as a baby reporter myself, just figuring out the world of journalism, it was so inspiring to work with incarcerated reporters and also just to learn more about the this world of prison, prison reporting and criminal justice and kind of got me started heading down deeper and deeper into gaining expertise in the field and becoming a criminal justice reporter myself. What about you, Julie? Like what- what drew you to prison reporting in the first place? And, you know, is there a kind of seminal story for you about it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I, I like to say that it picked me. I didn’t pick prisons, picked prisons, picked me because my first day on the job in Sacramento was the day the then Governor Schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the prisons for overcrowding. The first major story I did was, you know, going into San Quentin, actually, with the federal receiver who’d been appointed by a federal judge to improve prison medical care because one person a day was dying inside our prisons because they couldn’t get access to care. There were like 200,000, almost 200,000 people incarcerated in California in 2006 for facilities designed for 80,000 people. And you can only imagine that’s going to compromise every aspect of life, especially medical care. So the Supreme Court ordered California to reduce the crowding. And that was sort of unprecedented, kind of order to get from the US Supreme Court. So it’s just been a part of my life following that, mostly, for over a decade. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or San for you, is there a story that you feel kind of most proud of reporting, or a moment where you feel like your journalism was kind of able to, you know, affect the broadest number of people or anything like that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s definitely a story I’m proud of, but I don’t feel it had the impact I wanted. I wrote a story for Wall City Magazine, which is a division of San Quentin News, about stopping gun violence, because I was watching TV one day and the senator was acting like he’s an expert on stopping gun violence because he talked to a gunshot victim. And based on talking to this gunshot victim, he came up with this or supported this idea of arming the teachers. And I’m sitting here thinking like, if you arm to teachers, that’s where the next guns are going to come from, you big dummy. And I just felt like, here I am in a prison with 2500 lifers running around with very little supervision at times, and it’s one of the safest places I had ever been up at that point in my life. And most of these guys that committed violence and we stopped it by therapy really, like putting restorative justice into place, not as a way to deal with harm, but as a as a way of life. So when harm is thinking about happening, this way of life is already in place to prevent it. Right. And just that therapy and being included in a community, being exclusioned, leaving people out of society, right, and rubbing in their face that you’re here but you’re not one of us. There’s all these different things that were happening in San Quentin, and I felt like were an answer to gun violence. And I wanted to get that out there. And so I did a lot of research and wrote this article I’m really proud of, and I think I’m the only that read it. Cuz we still get shot. Ah it’s sad. It’s sad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh I’m sorry. That that’s one of the most frustrating things is finding an audience for for your reporting. What about you, Jesse? Is there a story that you’re the most, you know, proud of writing or, you know, being an editor for getting getting in the paper? You know, despite obstacles?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will clarify that. I did read Roseanne’s piece on gun violence. So it was two of us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At least two of us read it. Well, there was probably one adviser who read it to to proofread it. So we did the best we could. There is one story that I think, I, I mean, I wrote and it was based on the victim compensation fund and the Department of Corrections. And I think the reason why I remember that story very vividly, because I had a couple guys on the prison yard actually come to me, right? And tell me, like, dude, like I didn’t know where my restitution money was going. I didn’t understand that there’s this victim compensation fund that is there, but the victims had to actually request it. You know, it’s not an automatic thing where, you know, like you’re paying into the restitution and a check is sent to the victims every, you know, month or every six months or whatever. It’s they have to keep their address up to date. They have to check that the money is there. They have to make sure that they tell the, you know, victim compensation board to make sure that they, you know, get their money. So I had a couple guys come to me and say, like, ‘You know what, I contacted my family to contact so-and-so to let them know, like, hey, there’s some money waiting for you because I’m getting charged for it. And I want to make sure that the victims get it. Instead of it being rolled into the general fund or whatever, you know that the state does.’ And I think the reason why I’m most proud of that story in particular, is because I’ve always wanted to at least make a difference in the small community that we were serving. And for me, that immediate context is the people that I was locked up with. And that’s why, like, you know, still to this day, I remember that one story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rahsaan, I was also wanting to ask you about the stories that you didn’t get to tell. Like, are there any stories that you wished you could tell, you know, while you were incarcerated but could not, because of, you know, the pressures or the censorship from others or just the limitations of the environment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Honestly, there’s stories that I wish were told, but I didn’t want to tell them. For instance, there were like prison officials and wardens that were like getting in legal troubles. And so it felt hypocritical that they weren’t being punished and they were responsible for holding us accountable. But at the same time, I’m not trying to do stories about, like, blood and crip stuff, right? Like I’m trying to do positive stories or story that’s going to make a difference in stories like, look what they’re doing, right? I wanted to do stories that like, ‘Look what we could be doing and be a better place.’ So I can’t say there’s any stories that I really held back on. There’s stories I haven’t finished yet. There’s stories I’m working on, but nothing’s stopping me with me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you know, Jesse, I have a slightly different question for you, which is just, you know, as an editor, has there ever been a time where, you know, CDCR leadership or, you know, the warden of San Quentin or now that you’ve spread to other, you know, places has, you know, shut down a story or killed a story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, there was a story, one in particular that was going to go into Wall City Magazine. And it was a great story about, you know, two people finding love inside of the carceral system. I don’t know if you remember this one Rahsaan, but it was going to go in Wall City Magazine, and it was a great story written by Joe Garcia. And the lead editor on that was Kate McQueen. And it was an awesome piece, maybe about 2500 words. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the reason why it became an issue was for safety concerns. You know, inside of the California prison system, you can imagine the amount of, you know, machismo and, let’s say gender bias and stuff that exists, and a lot of the violence that is perpetuated against trans and, you know, other communities that people consider other. So it was like the administration was like, ‘We can’t let you run that story. It’s going to jeopardize these individuals, you know, if they get transferred somewhere else. San Quentin is a more, let’s say, tolerant environment, a more accepting environment. But if they ever get transferred somewhere else, you’re jeopardizing their safety. And, you know, we can’t allow that.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that was one issue where I didn’t agree with the decision. But I also understood that it’s not my responsibility to worry about people’s safety. That’s the state responsibility. And they’re seeing it from a liability perspective that I wasn’t paying attention to. I was just looking at it as a good story. They were looking at it well, there’s liability, you know, and there’s implications. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I wanted to shift us into talking a little bit about some of the things that we ran into reporting this podcast, you know, this season of On Our Watch. Rahsaan, you were an editorial consultant for On Our Watch, and you gave feedback along the way about the series. And, you know, I always just really appreciated your input. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the things that you just kind of, I think brought home for me, in the editorial room was the kind of wildness of the situation with the murder of Luis Giovanny Aguilar. The fact that deadly force was not used, you know, in this unit and, you know, when this was transpiring. And you really wanted to, you know, help us get that across to listeners because we, you know, in our earlier drafts, we’re not doing so. Can you talk a little bit about that, like why that particular environment, why it was so kind of startling to you — who has a familiarity with the world inside prison — why the deadly force was not used as an option? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. The first thing you see, or one of the first things you notice that sounds really cold is the sign on the wall that says no warning shots, and they mean it. They don’t yell, you know, ‘Stop, break up the fight.’ They break up fights with gunfire. And so I know them to be really harsh with that weapon that Mini 14. I’ve been on the yard with people who have bullets in them from that Mini 14, and for it not to be used in that incident where the that might have been a viable way to stop somebody from getting killed? And they didn’t? It just spoke to me it like that was a setup. Like that was a huge clue to me that that’s not how that world works. I’ve actually seen the gun fired at San Quentin before, and this is like one guy had another guy in a headlock. No weapons were involved, but he just wouldn’t let him out of a headlock. And then, thank God, the officer fired into the ground. But he fired into the ground three times, right next to where the guy had the other guy in a headlock for a wrestling match, right? So I just don’t know a world where somebody’s gets stabbed to death and they don’t use that gun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And you talked about the kind of psychological impact of, like, living under that gun, like that, you know, that gun is in the control booth kind of looking over you all the time. And that really made an impact on me because I was kind of thinking about it more from the perspective of just like, ‘Oh, this is this person’s job is supposed to keep people safe.’ But there is just always this gun looking over you no matter what you’re doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I always felt like it’s supposed to protect you, but I always felt like because they have a bad habit of hitting people of color, not using them when your lives on the line, just, like, really selective. And even in a perfect world where they’re trying to do the right thing, it’s still a matter of aim and movement and just all these different factors. I rather take my chances with the ice pick. Y’all mind y’all business. I rather take my chances with the ice pick than that gun being over my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. Jesse, I also called you a number of times while working on this series because I just think of you as somebody who’s got really good advice about how to deal with tricky situations, ethical decisions, and, you know, just to make sure, like, do a gut check on myself about how I’m approaching certain things. And I know you have really strong feelings about this, but like, can you tell me, you know, what are your pet peeves? What are the pitfalls that you see reporters or news organizations falling prey to, you know, when they’re reporting on prisons and incarceration? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, I think it’s it’s personal to me just because, like, I know the folks inside, you know, and having been there for, you know, two decades, you get to learn people’s mannerisms and stuff and you have a different appreciation for life. So some of the things that I know, you know, when people report on the incarcerated or just on things that pertain to our living environment, there’s certain things that need to be said and told. Right? But they have repercussions for us as a population. It’s just like one thing, right? Like, for instance, they told the story about us getting, you know, Snickers bars and peanuts back in the days for Christmas. We used to get free Christmas packages, you know, that were paid for by the state. And a reporter happened to run the story and stuff like that. And it was great that the state was doing something for the incarcerated during Christmas time, you know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But unfortunately, when the story came out, there was so much backlash behind the state being “soft on crime” that they stopped that program. So it’s like, did you do this story as a human interest story or were you doing the story? Just because look at what taxpayer money is doing. Look at what they’re doing. They’re feeding these criminals and stuff. Right. So it’s the twist that they put on it. And sadly, you know, most of the stories that have come out of prison, you know, have been detrimental to the incarcerated, to our conditions. And everybody’s been speaking on our behalf, taking our quotes out of context. And it’s like, well, how come you just don’t let me tell the story, you know, how come you just don’t, like, report accurately what I’m trying to mention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Most reporters, they parachute into the prisons, they parachute in, get a story, run that story, and they tell you like, you know, number one is like, we want to protect people’s, you know, safety and well-being and stuff like that. That’s an illusion. That’s to appease your conscience. You can’t. You can’t guarantee anything. You know, once you take that story and run with it. Right. You can’t guarantee nobody’s safety. That’s number one. Number two, the idea of, you know, journalism doing no harm. It’s like nobody tells a story not intending to do harm. Sometimes we tell the story one and people to go to jail wanting things to change. Like that’s a reality. That’s harm. That’s going to happen to somebody’s family somewhere, somehow. You know, so when you take a story that a reporter publishes and then they don’t come back to talk to the person that they interviewed, when they don’t try to create community or relationships or stay engaged to make sure that nothing does happen to this person, like, that’s a disservice to that individual and to themselves as journalists, because now you’ve lost your credibility with the incarcerated because you told them you wanted this story to make a difference, but then you, like, let them down by just walking away after you got a Pulitzer or something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As part of Empowerment Avenue, we have help writers publish stories that are critical to CDCR and major platforms, and they have gotten flack for it. One writer in particular, he was put into a cell with a guy known for attacking people, and we feel it was on purpose. Like, you know, this guy’s attacking. You know, he keeps attacking people. He’s an old man with mental health issues. You know, this is going to happen. Sure enough, my boy got attacked. He didn’t fight back, though. He just did enough to, like, stop the attack. And they still put him in a hole even though he was the victim. Right. So we really feel like it was retaliatory. And in situations like that, your heart goes out and it’s a reminder that everybody’s not in San Quentin. Where the retaliat- I believe there’s retaliation as well, but it looks different. It doesn’t look like violence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was he was that person okay? Like what? What happened to them? Physically? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’re fine. They survived it. Got hit in the head with a lock. So he survived it. And we’re trying to like right now sue to get the video footage to try to do something. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I was going to ask you, was is there anything, you know, that you’ve noticed in your years of reporting about prisons, you know, blind spots that you see regularly in the media or, you know, things that you’ve learned over the years that have kind of informed the way you approach prison reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I like what was said about people parachuting in. That happens a lot. I like to think that I didn’t parachute in, but, because I kept covering the stories. But I can see now that I, I relied too heavily on advocates and people on the outside. It was harder before to actually speak to people who are incarcerated. And the first experience of having good access was during Covid. And I was able to talk to people in San Quentin as things were happening. But that was relatively new and recorded on a decent line. And, so it’s it’s changed and there’s better access now, but, a lot of times people will just focus in on one issue. There’s so many systemic issues. It needs to be covered over a period of time. So you can see if anything’s changing, if anything’s coming out of your reporting. It’s nearly impossible because it’s such a closed system. And I didn’t really appreciate that until we did this podcast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, and I was thinking about the things that are being measured throughout my career, you know, the medical care, mental health care, how many visits to the therapist, dental care. You know, those were tangible things that I could measure, and even use of force going up or use of force going down. But we actually aren’t told what’s going on inside the prisons, where if a crime occurs inside, it’s not a public record. There’s so much going on, and it’s really hard for us to gauge how how dangerous it is because it’s completely being withheld from us. And, this podcast was the first time I really got to talk to correctional officers who were open about it, and also realizing that there are- they’re also people on that side caught in this, you know, silence, this code of silence that you can’t break it. They don’t agree with it. They’re aware of the problems, but they go along. And so I guess. That’s a much harder story to get at. And it took two years for us to get it. That’s, you know, and that’s maybe why people don’t get at it. But, this is breaking through that silence. The only way is to find to talk to more people who are formerly incarcerated and more people who are currently incarcerated and former staff of any stripe, whether they’re officers or psych techs or whatever they are. It’s the only way we’re going to know, really, what’s going on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jesse, you know, two of the kind of main subjects of the series were these two correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who reported misconduct, you know, within the ISU, the investigative services unit that they worked. And I just wonder about your experience with that. Like, have you had experience with correctional officers who became whistleblowers, who are willing to talk to you for stories or willing to talk to reporters for the San Quentin News? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I’ve. I’ve gotten, I mean, I know some corrections officers, now. It’s interesting to say, you know, that we’re friends to some extent. You know, it’s it would be odd, you know, to say that they weren’t, though, just because the level of intimacy that we’ve developed over time, and I think that just came with, like, developing a relationship where there was like, care and concern for the individual as a person versus just as a source for a story. And even though some of the stories that they’ve shared. Right, they go back, you know, five years, ten years, 15 years. Right. We haven’t really pursued them in a formal way, in an official way. Like if I get a story, I’ll usually pawn it off on somebody else because it’s not what we actually do at San Quentin News, or it’s something that I know is going to jeopardize, you know, that individual’s job or his safety. And it’s a story that I believe that, it’s not going to necessarily influence policy. Right. Because one of the things, right, when I hear stories of corrections officers in the struggles that they go through, you know, they go through the same issues that we go through as a culture inside of the prison system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, Rahsaan, what was your experience, you know, as a journalist incarcerated, you know, trying to get people to talk, you know, trying to get people to break that code of silence or that taboo against, you know, quote unquote, snitching?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I had different experiences. Some I never broke it, some I did, but for the most part, I wasn’t asking people to snitch on anything. Right. I allow people to be comfortable talking about the story without editing. And then I would edit in a way that would be to tell a story, but be respectful to the to their lives, to their trust in me, their faith in me. Because I always tell people, ‘I’m not TMZ, right? I’m trying to tell a story to make a difference. Right? I’m not. I’m a solution based reporter. I’m not. I’m just telling the story for entertainment. I don’t care about clicks. I don’t care about ratings. I don’t care about none of that stuff.’ I just want to put some intelligence on our world and show people like how we can deal with things in a way that’s gonna be effective. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so people trusted me with their stories because I wouldn’t put stuff out there that didn’t belong out there. That wasn’t necessary for the story. And if there was something edgy where we walking the line, I would talk about it with them and ask them did they feel comfortable? And they would have to make a grown person decision. Then when we started doing that, there were like OGs that would vouch for us. There were like there were people in the community be like, ‘Nah.’ Then an OG be like, ‘Yo, they good, I good bro. Like, you can talk to them.’ And they would get the green light to do the interview. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s really amazing. Another like really big hurdle that we dealt with and also that incarcerated people face, not just in the world of journalism, but overall is this perceived lack of credibility. And we saw this over and over again, you know, incarcerated people who had reported officers for using excessive force. But if the use of force happened in a place where there were no cameras, if there was no other tangible evidence to back up their story, it was not their story did not prevail. Jesse, can you talk a little bit about how you deal with these issues of credibility as an editor and how you advise journalists that you work with to think about these issues and help them get, you know, accountability or get justice through reporting? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. It’s, very tricky. Just because there’s, a couple of things, right, that I learned when I first went into the system before I became a journalist. Right. That have carried over into how we set editorial, reporting expectations. You know, it’s like you can go to an interview, hear a story from somebody, and then if it’s an allegation of misconduct or something like that, then we ask for like, documentation, paperwork, you know, appointment dockets. We ask for corroborating evidence, you know, like maybe a witness or two. Right. Somebody that was there and stuff like that. But the other thing that we also tell our reporters is the people that they’re interviewing, like if there isn’t documentation yet, had them document it now and start lodging those, you know, grievance forms like a 602, right. Start writing the ombudsman, start sending something to the attorney general and stuff like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then that way our story isn’t just, you know, he said she said, because that also protects us. Like, I want to make sure that above all else, right, that we continue to have some institutional credibility as a publication that at least tries to fact check and, you know, try to advise the people that were interviewing to do what’s right. Because the main thing that I realize about, the outside world and how they look at prison journalism, the way that we do it, is they think that it’s always advocacy journalism. And it’s not always that, you know, but they think because it’s prison journalists producing journalism, that it has to be advocacy because we’re talking against a system. And sometimes I think what we’re actually doing is just, you know, as they say, historically, journalism happens to be the first rough draft of human history. And I think that’s what we’re doing, just chronicling, you know, what’s happening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about you, Rahsaan? Is there, like any difference in the way that you think about credibility in, in prison or in talking to incarcerated sources versus just, you know, any source that you might talk to for a story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, I start out with talking with anyone as if they’re telling the truth, unless my instincts or they give me a reason not to believe them, or they make a claim that the world might not believe. And like Jesse said, you need proof to back it up. Not for me, but because if we’re going to print, it could be a lawsuit. Whatever I need to be able to back this up, it needs to be a fact, right? I think one of my greatest problems or greatest issues I ran into was being a freelancer. When it came to quoting incarcerated people in the yard. There were organizations that wanted like, it was just hard for them to accept a quote from an incarcerated person. They wanted, like notes and verification and just all this extra layers. But yet they’ll take a CDCR quote and run with it. Just don’t even fact check nothing, just run with it, put out propaganda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I just felt like what makes their work better than ours? Or what as a journalist like, why would you devalue- is it me? Because like, you know, we have people on NBC that was known liars, like all kinds of journalists, on major platforms. So it’s not where you at, you know, that determines your level of integrity. And so I felt like I was almost being censored by my colleagues because you’re putting a higher standard on who’s quotable or who’s reliable. When I’m telling you I’m living right here. And I see this person’s daily walk every day. They’re reliable, right? They have a reliable track record. Right. And so who are you doubting, me? Them? Both? And what are you using to weigh credibility? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julie, I know you have spent many years covering prisons, a lot of years talking to public information officers and public affairs officers for CDCR. A lot of years, you know, trying to break through the wall of bureaucracy and official speak to get real answers on things that are incredibly important, you know, both for people who are incarcerated and for people who are not incarcerated, who pay for this incredibly expensive system that we all own here in California. You know, what are your, you know, tips, and, and how to do that or if not tips, what are your frustrations with trying to do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I, I’m going to be a little negative here. I don’t think you’ll ever get a specific answer to a specific question unless it’s innocuous or makes them look good. I think the way to deal with it is to get your information and to dig deep and have your facts. And like we did in the podcast, like, say, ‘This, this and this happened, what’s your response?’ So that it’s like you’re giving them enough rope. They are saying something ludicrous in response to evidence that you’re presenting in your story. So I think it’s like going every other place to get the information, stacking it up and presenting it and then saying, ‘Okay, now try to deny all this.’ And then let them, let them deny it. And they it just exposes them as for what they are, just not telling the truth. Not not being forthright. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s been your experience like, Jesse? I mean, I know, like when you were incarcerated, you would have to, you know, try and get response from CDCR and now, you know, as you know, kind of a publisher, like helping other journalists who are incarcerated, you know, how do you kind of bring accountability questions to, you know, CDC, our public affairs, and what are the kinds of answers you get? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s pretty interesting because the whole profession of being a public information officer, right? It’s a lot of damage control. You know, it’s a lot of damage control. It’s a lot of, you know, trying to salvage an image, you know, and I think, again, like I always preface what I say with, I try to give people a lot of grace because I understand as individuals you’re put in between a rock and a hard spot, right? When this is your job, this is what you get paid for. This is what you’re supposed to do, right? Ethically and morally, you may not agree with it, right? And you may have questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, you have to protect your institution from liability, you know? So I’m very mindful of that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when I talk to our reporters and everybody that we’re training to be reporters inside the carceral system, it’s like, don’t expect people to validate the truth that you know. You know, like, just know that there’s going to be some version that’s going to come out that may not be the actual truth, you know, but you have to find a way to tell that story anyway. And then we have to be able to, not just bring them accountability, but also bring enough awareness and notoriety to the issue that it’s going to make a difference. Right? Because it can’t just come from one person and one source. And I think that’s been the thing that has helped us. Right? It’s not just about like the incarcerated. So our editor in chief wants to know this, you know, do you have an answer for him? It’s like, well, our editor in chief, you know, these two other publications and these five organizations, you know, are interested in what’s happening here. And all of a sudden it’s like, oh, you got more people involved and stuff, right? So it’s like there’s more eyeballs. There’s more accountability, right? Having more like institutions that produce journalism be involved with prison journalists is essential if we’re going to hold the systems accountable. Right. Because I think at the end of the day, most people want accountability and transparency, right? But it’s scary to go through that change. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, Rahsaan, I know we’ve talked in the past before about like, the frustrations that you have about the kinds of stories you feel like you’re allowed to tell, or people want you to tell. Can you speak to that a little bit about just, you know, the limitations that people of the journalism people allow you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It goes back to credibility again. Right? For whatever reason, they don’t respect incarcerated people as real journalists, even though we are behind enemy lines, so to speak, and speaking from the belly of the beast, which is a tough. But certain organizations limit you to opinion pieces. Right. And so I try to be positive about that. Like we do enough opinion pieces and they’ll respect, like, we’ll build a relationship and then they’ll respect us. And then a guy will end up, you know, doing a feature piece, doing an actual reported piece. And, you know, here and there that works out, but some of us are still stuck, and some of these organizations still got it stuck in opinion piece mode. And I just think we’re so much better than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I know that sometimes somebody might take offense that they’ve been to journalism school and got this degree and spent all this money and here comes somebody who just bootleg trained off the yard in the Journalism Guild, and they’re able to earn a living from prison or take up space in that paper that maybe these journalists feel like that belongs to me and my degree. But I think that if you want a better society, you have to get the whole story. Then we’ll be doing what we supposed to do as journalists, which I believe is a- to foster democracy, a world that’s inclusive, a world that’s better, a world that works for all of us. But if we only featuring one side of the story and we limit ourselves to this crap. This clickbait. We get what we we going to keep getting what we’ve been getting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I do want to say that I think things are getting somewhat better. Empowerment Avenue launched during Covid when reporters couldn’t get the story except having direct access to us. And so we controlled the narrative and we were able to put stories out. But COVID’s gone and the demand for incarcerated voices has gone up. And now guys have actual journalism jobs as like editors and reporters from prison and making decent salaries. So I think the world is changing. But there’s still some organizations that don’t have incarcerated voices connected. They haven’t built that community. They don’t know where the experts are. So there’s still more work to be done. But because that the demand for our voices has grown, and formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. So I’m super proud. Like the world wants to hear our side of the story, they tired of the same old law and order crap, right? And so I’m really going into the future hopeful, but yet still speaking loudly about all the flaws that we need to fix so we can hurry up and fix them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And I think I’ll just add that what made prison journalism a force to be reckoned with in the 1800s early 1900s, up until 1991, when we had, you know 300 newspapers inside of prisons, it was community engagement, you know, like deep engagement, you know, with the prison system and, you know, just paying attention to those stories and holding the system accountable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing, too, like a lot of times we think that change in policy is going to change the world. And it doesn’t. You know, you can’t legislate how people feel about each other. You can’t tell me I gotta like somebody. You have to create a culture and an environment and a space where I want to help, where I want to care, where I want to be involved. Right. And I think creating spaces like this prison journalism movement that we have going on, like we’re actually trying to develop more civic engagement because people who are civically engaged care about their communities, and their communities start caring about them. So and I think that’s going to be at the core of how we create a cultural change that’s going to, you know, supersede policy, you know, by maybe five, ten years. So be mindful that, you know, like how you report on people, shows what you care for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All right. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, Jessie and Roseanne and Julie for having this great conversation about journalism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rahsaan Thomas:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you. I appreciate being here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jesse Vasquez:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Thanks for having us as colleagues on here. It’s great. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have links to Jesse and Rahsaan’s work in our episode description, as well as other resources to support prison journalism. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to onourwatch@KQED.org. This episode was hosted by me, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sukey Lewis\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Brendan Willard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our podcast operations manager, our managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis R. Taylor Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sukey sits down with Mary Inman and Poppy Alexander, two whistleblower attorneys who talk about the cost of speaking up, and unpack the playbook that employers use to keep people quiet. They also discuss a shift in thinking that can protect both whistleblowers and their organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC4625892902\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mental health resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you are currently in crisis, you can dial 988 [U.S.] to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/national-helpline\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SAMHSA National Help Line\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://988lifeline.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.nami.org/help\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) Helpline\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.hhs.gov/programs/prevention-and-wellness/mental-health-substance-abuse/index.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">US Health and Human Services\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://warmline.org/warmdir.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Warmline Directory\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Whistleblower resources\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblower.law/\">Whistleblower Partners, LLP\u003c/a> (where Mary and Poppy are partners)\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://www.thelamplighterproject.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Lamplighter Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://thesignalsnetwork.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Signals Network\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://empowr.us/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">EMPOWR\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowersofamerica.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblowers of America\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistleblower.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Government Accountability Project\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.whistleblowers.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Whistleblower Center\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://whistlebloweraid.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whistleblower Aid\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Mary Inman was profiled in the New Yorker piece, \u003ca href=\"https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/04/the-personal-toll-of-whistle-blowing\">“The Personal Toll of Whistleblowing.”\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://journalism.berkeley.edu/programs/mj/investigative-reporting/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Investigative Reporting Program\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism was a key partner in making Season 2 of On Our Watch.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The records obtained for this project are part of the\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://projects.scpr.org/california-reporting-project/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> California Reporting Project\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a coalition of news organizations in California. If you have tips or feedback about this series please reach out to us at \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"mailto:onourwatch@kqed.org\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">onourwatch@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Egusa: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we start, I just wanted to give you a heads up that this episode references suicide. If you or someone you know needs support, we’ve got links to resources in the episode description. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hi, listeners, it’s Sukey. We’re back. Over the next few weeks, we’re going to be bringing you some brand new bonus episodes. We’re going to dip into some of the stories that didn’t make it in the podcast, and talk to some experts to help us understand Correctional Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele in a broader light. We’re starting off this week with a really interesting conversation about what it means to be a whistleblower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When my colleague Julie first spoke to Val Senior about his son and his friend, Sergeant Kevin Steele, he was hesitant to call them whistleblowers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Valentino Rodriguez, Sr.: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That name doesn’t do justice to people that have come forward, for me. When we were kids, being a whistleblower is tattletale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Small: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, see I think of it as heroic. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The term and its many fraught interpretations are woven throughout our story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dion Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I’m a whistleblower rat for ex- exposing this ongoing corruption of staff and that I need to be taken out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sgt. Kevin Steele: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can take on a bad connotation sometimes, but it is, again, a government program intended to expose corruption. That’s what it’s designed for. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tinkerbell: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still haven’t been confirmed with whistleblower status, so that’s another reason why I’m a little still… I mean, I would venture to say that hopefully, the legal system would protect me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so we wanted to spend some time talking to two people who can help us understand this term and the challenges of coming forward. Thank you both so much for coming in. Could we just start off by having you each introduce yourselves? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sure. My name’s Mary Inman. I’m a partner at the law firm Whistleblower Partners, and I’m in the San Francisco office, and we specialize in representing whistleblowers under the various U.S. whistleblower reward programs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I am Poppy Alexander. I am Mary’s partner here at Whistleblower Partners in the San Francisco office. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted to talk to Mary and Poppy to better understand the journey that Officer Valentino Rodriguez and Sergeant Kevin Steele went through to become whistleblowers, and to see if they had any solutions for how to better support people like them in the future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, yeah, these were two correctional officers. Well, one was a correctional officer, the other was a correctional sergeant, who both took it upon themselves to report the misconduct of their fellow officers, which is, you know, a very difficult thing to do. And, you know, had pretty serious consequences because of it. And I was just wondering, Mary, if you can put their stories in a broader context, you know, how common are experiences like theirs, among whistleblowers that you speak to or that you have, you know, studied? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. Unfortunately, the experiences that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele had are incredibly common. There seems to be a playbook that organizations — whether they’re private or public — have when someone blows the whistle. It’s often people reverting to what I call a ‘medieval mindset,’ where the playbook says we shoot the messenger to divert attention from the message. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that certainly seems very much to be the case that happened here. But it happens regardless of industry or sector. Poppy and I have represented whistleblowers in the tech sector, in health care, in transportation, in finance, and it’s very similar. When you would hope that what a whistleblower does is just shine a light on a fraud for people to look at it or wrongdoing for people to examine it is incredibly demoralizing to a whistleblower that the spotlight gets moved away from that and shown solidly on them. And that can be incredibly disorienting and incredibly demoralizing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mary is absolutely right. We see this all the time in every industry. But I do think that there’s something special about the prison context here. We’re talking about folks who are literally locked up, whether you are a guard or you’re a prisoner, you’re in the same space. You’re sort of stuck together. That is inevitably going to lead to a different mentality that is very much about, you know, circling up, guarding the wagons. That is more extreme even than what we see in sort of the normal context as well. There is a real incentive in these kinds of spaces to guard the institution, to shoot the messenger, to keep the doors closed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s all these perceptions from very- when we’re a very young age that, you know, you don’t rat out or you don’t tattle. That is just magnified a thousand fold when you enter the scenario of military or security or in this case, prison guards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. And peace officers as well, kind of have, you know, a unique bind or perhaps a unique bind, which is that they’re often both required by policy to report misconduct and not insulated from retaliation if they do so. And if they end up stepping outside the chain of command to report misconduct, you know, to the media, for example, they can get disciplined for sharing confidential information. And I think it also just makes it so difficult for peace officers, in particular, to know what the right thing to do is, you know, they’re they’re bound by all these conflicting rules. And then where does their own moral compass come into things? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I totally agree, and I think, as you were pointing out, Sukey, the the fact that there can be all of these competing obligations that you have… One of the things that can be most difficult is what was present here — is that the wrongdoing that both Valentino and Sergeant Steele were trying to expose went to the very top. And so it can be- it feels like it’s, it’s futile in a way to expose that internally when you’re exposing it to the very chain of command that’s engaged in the wrongdoing. I do understand that, you know, the Office of Internal Affairs is supposed to be, you know, playing a particular ro- role, but it’s incredibly fraught when the fraud has really been designed, and the architects of the fraud are the people who really control your fate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you’re saying, you know, if the whistleblower is exposed internally, that can create incredible psychological and emotional pressures on them. And I think we saw that with both Sergeant Kevin Steele and Valentino Rodriguez, in that kind of isolation and ostracization that they experienced. There are also a number of other officers, you know, who have died by suicide after reporting misconduct and feeling like everyone has turned against them, and I think also that their efforts aren’t aren’t- don’t amount to anything. So that frustration that, ‘I did risk so much, I did put my ass on the line to expose the misconduct. And still there’s nothing being done.’ I know you have, you know, this is an area that’s near and dear to your work, Mary. Can you talk a little bit about the psychosocial impacts of whistleblowing and, you know, these very, very serious, you know, deadly consequences? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think we’ve seen this, you’re alluding to, unfortunately, I’ve had the great tragedy of losing two clients in my life. And one of them, The New Yorker did an article talking about the personal toll of whistleblowing. But we’ve also seen it very recently with John Barnett, who’s the whistleblower in the, in the, in the Boeing case, who it appears that he took his life. There’s still, you know, I think some questions about that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the hardest pieces, and where I think we would all be really well served, is creating a level of psychosocial support, not just for whistleblowers, which I think is vital, but also for the first responders, for the people who deal with whistleblowers — for lawyers like myself. I learned the hard way on having to know more about resources that whistleblowers need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the best things that anyone can do when they’re first dealing with a whistleblower, whether it’s someone in H.R., or it’s the lawyers who they ultimately come to, or even the media, is to say, ‘I believe you.’ Right? Because that’s the issue, is that they have been in this unreality where, you know, they have been made the problem, and the problem they’re seeking to expose has been swept under the rug. So their whole world has been turned upside down and they’ve lost their support network. So everyone at work now knows that they are, you know, they’re radioactive. ‘Don’t do what you know, Valentino did because it’s not it’s not going to inure to your benefit.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So all of a sudden you’re- you’re isolated. You’ve lost your support network. Then you magnify this by going at home and you’ve lost your job, and your spouse is now or your significant other is incredibly angry, and resentful. So you, you know, the walls do start to feel like they’re closing in. And that’s why I think society we’re at a point — we need whistleblowers so much. They’re often I, I like to say the ‘Fifth Estate.’ They’re they’re a lot of the folks who are actually exposing and holding people to account, but yet we don’t have the even most basic, psycho- psychosocial supports for these people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it feels like this kind of vicious cycle as well, too, that, you know, then because you’re under the psychological pressure and you, you know, begin to feel gaslit or what have you or you do take your life, then we see these cases where the employer or the organization can point at them and say, ‘Look, see, we don’t have to believe what they said. They were the ones having trouble. They were the one, you know, they were in mental distress. They were crazy.’ And so discount their reports even after, you know, their deaths. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, first of all, that’s not good logic. And secondly, I hope that the folks, the other folks that that message is directed to, which, of course, is the other employees can recognize how circular that logic is and how self-serving, and how it simply doesn’t reflect the truth. And again, that’s why it’s so important that those whistleblowers who are in a position to do so can be public and can come forward and say, ‘Look: I did this. I survived, and this is what the process looks like.’ No one sets out to be a whistleblower. No one. You know, this is not anyone’s life goal or career aspiration. It happens. You’re forced into it for all sorts of different reasons. And knowing that people have come before and have made it through to the other side is really important. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Totally agree. And I think one of the one of the hardest things for whistleblowers that results in these, very desperate situations in terms of whistleblowers taking their own lives, I think, is that whistleblowers start out not thinking that they’re whistleblowers at all. They’re just trying to expose wrongdoing. And then the world gets turned upside down and the wrongdoing is ignored and the spotlight gets turned on them, that they’re the problem. What makes it so difficult is that I think they have an abiding sense of, ‘There’s an injustice, there’s something wrong, and it hasn’t been addressed. And yet all of this energy, like enormous amounts of energy and resources which could have been used to address the problem, are now being focused on me as the problem.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think those are just- it’s so hard to reconcile that. And I think one of the best services that Poppy and I can offer is to describe the playbook to the whistleblower and say, ‘If you talk to me early on, I’m going to spell out for you how this is going to go.’ And then at least it takes some of the sting out of it. And it’s, it’s really quite ironic. Our clients are like, ‘You are completely prescient. Do you have a crystal ball? Like, how did you know this was going to happen?’ And we just said, unfortunately, this is just the path. And so if you know that that’s going to happen and you can try and plan for it, it does help whistleblowers to at least absorb those blows. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I think that, like you’re talking about the psychological journey of the whistleblower. And I think, you know, especially for Sergeant Kevin Steele, he… he really did you kind of see this arc of his, you know, disillusionment with his institution and that the place that he begins in is one of such faith in these, you know, pillars that he believed in and that were of, you know, fairness and accountability. And, you know, he’s just so kind of by the book, dude. And the betrayal that he experienced when he did try to report misconduct and having that not be taken seriously was incredibly crushing to him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I mean, I think with Sergeant Steele, it’s a particularly acute scenario because in addition to him feeling, you know, having the expectation that all of these policies and, you know, oaths that they took would be taken seriously. And to have the scales fall from your eyes is, you know, it’s a very disillusioning process. But I think what magnified it for him and amplified it, is that he became close with Valentino’s father and he was really traumatized by Valentino’s death, and this question of whether or not this was, you know, a suspicious death. Whether he died under particular circumstances. So I think there was also a level of guilt, because Valentino was on his team and someone that he should protect. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is absolutely the same thing we see. I- we see this day in and day out with whistleblowers in terms of the journeys that they have. And I think that a lot of us have observed this that there’s sort of this culture, at least, at least in the United States, as to whistleblowing that they’re either heroes or villains. And I think a lot of us believe that one of the best things, psychologically, for whistleblowers is if we could normalize it. They don’t want to be either. And I think that that is probably one of the things that they get caught up in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is in this, in this sort of dilemma. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We saw with the MeToo movement that a lot of this is- the psychological journey can also involve gaslighting and starting to doubt yourself. I think that’s what we see with Sergeant Steele is that he believed all of these things to be true. And then his reality started to change. And then that really makes you start to doubt yourself. And, and the circling the wagons phenomenon that Poppy talked about just makes this worse, is that everybody else is trying to suggest that this is not how it happened. And you start to then that makes even more self-doubt, which can be a very vicious cycle. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s interesting. There’s some studies that talk a lot about what happens to whistleblowers. Because of the pressures they lose their friends, they lose their social network. And so the New England Journal of Medicine did a study on pharmaceutical whistleblowers who expose the pharmaceutical industry. You know, they’re seeing higher incidences of divorce, of depression, anxiety, substance abuse. I think these are all outward indicators of tools that- and the occasion of what happens when, you know, you expose something and then, instead of it being corrected, it gets covered up. And then you yourself, as the whistleblower, often become persona non grata. The retaliation is done by your employer as a way to send a signal to other whistleblowers, ‘You shouldn’t do this.’ So your sort of almost made, basically made an example of. So I think all of these are, you know, is an environment that’s just incredibly difficult. And it adds insult to injury. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You mentioned the MeToo movement, and I think one of the things that we have found in our reporting as well, is how, you know, discrimination, misogyny, racism also become tools to enforce the code of silence and to keep people from speaking up. I mean, I know as a woman, that feeling of like, oh, I’ve got to be cool to get along. You know, I’m not going to like, rock the boat or push back if somebody makes an inappropriate comment — you know, taken to a much more serious level, obviously, with Valentino Rodriguez. But does that translate to other contexts outside the prison as well? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. Unfortunately, we see this a lot. It is rarer than any of us would like to see female whistleblowers, to see whistleblowers of color. And so much of that has to do with that mentality you just mentioned. That, you know, ‘we’re trained to get along,’ and we’re trained that ‘to get along’ means to value the traditional workplace culture of white cis men. And that obviously is amplified in the prison context. But that’s true everywhere. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I- this is my completely uneducated guess, but I do feel like we’re starting to see a shift there. And certainly starting to see more female whistleblowers just coming in the door. And I do wonder how much of that is the MeToo movement. I wonder how much of that is people just being fed up with that attitude. But it still is very much a problem. And, you know, as Mary said, we have this tradition of we either see whistleblowers as heroes or villains, but either way, it’s oftentimes this sort of mentality of, you know, the single man standing alone on the hilltop shouting, you know, shouting the truth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s not true. Women have been whistleblowers forever. People of color have been whistleblowers forever. They have found other ways to make sure that that information gets out. You know, some have been very public about it. Erin Brockovich is, you know, maybe the quintessential example on some level. But, and other people do it in different ways. They help their community. They make sure that the information gets out via a whisper network, what have you. There’s all sorts of strategies to make sure that the truth gets told. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when it comes to this sort of ‘in-group outgroup mentality’ of making sure that you were sort of getting along in a confined space, whether that’s a workplace, whether that’s a prison, whether that’s whatever it might be, there certainly are added incentives to put your head down, do your work, ignore what is oftentimes right in front of your face as a wrong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I agree, the power differential is something that is really significant, right? In terms of you see, a lot of studies have shown that women and people of color are more likely to leave an organization than to report. And I do think that MeToo started to show us a way that, if we can create a solidarity among whistleblowers, I think that’s one of the strongest way we can encourage, reporting. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I would love to see us have more avenues to find ways to bring whistleblowers together. So it isn’t, just that lone wolf as Poppy said. But that there are multiple people linking arms, saying that this happened to them as well. And then you really do have to pay, give it more credence than if it’s just one sole person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Ad break]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think within, you know, the California Department of Corrections and going back to the policy of their, you know, ban on the code of silence, there’s been an unintended consequence, at least according — or maybe it’s intended, I don’t know — but at least according to the correctional officers that we spoke to, which is that if you don’t report right away, you can then get in trouble when you report later. Like, if you see an incident happen, excessive use of force, maybe you’re fearful to come forward initially, and then you- you gather that internal fortitude and you decide to make that report, you can often then get disciplined for, you know, holding to the code of silence thus far. And it creates a disincentive to come forward rather than, you know, the stated purpose of this policy, which is to create an incentive to come forward. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s such a challenge. You know, we have clients who come forward sometimes and tell us about information that’s many, many years old. And there’s lots of reasons why they might suddenly wake up one day and say, ‘Now’s the time. I have to tell someone.’ Of course, it’s probably better in terms of trying to solve problems, when people come to us with fresh information, we can usually do more with it. But that doesn’t mean that that’s a less valid whistleblower simply because they waited. It usually means that there’s something else going on in their lives that prevented them from coming forward first. And we need to recognize that in how we design our policies and how we think through this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, we’ve heard from a number of correctional officers since the podcast came out saying that just hearing these stories made them feel like, you know, they might have an opportunity to speak up. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And that’s, you know, really heartening, obviously, in terms of just the rewarding work of getting these voices out into the world. But I’ve also talked to correctional officers who have, you know, tried to get whistleblower protections, and often they want to do it before they blow the whistle. They want to know, like, ‘Oh, I’m going to be protected ahead of time. Like, where do I go to, you know, get my whistleblower card or whatever.’ \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And, you know, from my understanding, it really doesn’t work like that. Like it’s very based on, you know, retroactive retaliation. And if you can prove that you were retaliated against, maybe you can get some retroactive protection. But can either of you address that issue? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think there really, it can be very difficult to prove retaliation. Sort of the statistics of the ability of someone to succeed in a retaliation claim in the United States are very dire. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Laughs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re not great. And I think part of that is because it’s very difficult to prove that you were retaliated against for speaking up as compared to some- any other reason that someone can pretextual come up with, right? Like, oh, you’re chronically late, even though your chronic lateness was something that everyone tolerated for years. But until you spoke up, then all of a sudden that becomes a problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is there something that needs to change in the law to make that an easier argument to make, or to, you know, the lower the standard of proof that you have to reach in order to prove that retaliation happened? What are some fixes that you see for that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s interesting, in Europe there’s now something called the European Whistleblowing Directive. And one of the changes that they made that I would love to see being made across all of the various retaliation protections laws, is this burden- shifting the burden of proof. That the burden initially, and for too long, remains on the plaintiff. To have to prove that, you know, they were retaliated against because they spoke up. And if we can reverse- shift that burden of proof and put it on the employer, actually, to prove that, you know, they did do it for a legitimate reason, I think that would be one concrete way that we could improve the odds that people could succeed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the, you know, looking domestically, I think the SEC also provides a really excellent model here where the SEC takes very seriously any accusations of retaliation related to someone who has reported securities fraud to the, to the agency. And they take it very seriously and they, you know, will tell employers at every opportunity that they take it very seriously. And that public messaging has been extremely important and protective. And then oftentimes it then puts whistleblowers in the somewhat uncomfortable position of having to decide where they’re going to publicly declare to the company that they, in fact, did report to the SEC, because then that does provide them some level of protection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That only applies to some small subset of the whistle blowing world. But there’s no reason that has to be true. There’s lots of other ways to try to build off of that same level of protection that we see. There’s other agencies that are involved and whistle-blowing in all sorts of forms, we have- you know, OSHA is involved in many of these cases. There’s- we have lots of agencies here. So I think there’s lots of other strategies to try to build in more of a protection. But it does. It always starts with culture. Right? And that’s culture both from the government side of telling companies and telling organizations what’s important. And then of course, it starts on the company side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah. I think the- the long tail of fear that correctional officers experience after- even after they leave… Like, they’ve retired for years, but they’re still afraid to speak up. They don’t know if their pension can be taken away. They don’t know what power the institution still has over them. There’s also, you know, obviously just their their friendship groups and their culture that they’re afraid of losing. But there’s just this very long tail of oppression, I would say, that they experience psychologically and that it’s not entirely dissipated when they leave the prison at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. And you know, so, so many times prisons, right, are and very small towns. And so even if you’re not working at the prison, you’re still- most other people in the town are going to be. And that then means there’s really no way to sort of escape that. But of course, you shouldn’t have to. You shouldn’t have to lose all your friends and community simply because you’re willing to take a stand and tell the truth. That should never be a consequence of telling the truth. And- but of course it acts as a disincentive for coming forward, for speaking out against the pack, for what have you, which can only be remedied by changing the culture, can only be remedied by encouraging people to see that as a good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Sukey, you’re right that the retaliation doesn’t stop when they leave the prison. And there’s sort of a long tail of retaliation, right? Which is often when you go to that next job, unfortunately that next employer will often call for a recommendation or a reference to your existing employer. And, we often see that even if they’re not doing it directly, there’s word of mouth that, ‘You don’t want this person. This is, this person is disloyal. They, you know, they’ve exposed us and created all this difficulty. They’re a troublemaker and you shouldn’t hire them.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so that certainly, you know, in the case of my whistleblower client that was featured in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, that was really ultimately his undoing, right? Is that he ended up, because he couldn’t leave the, the part of Florida where he was practicing. He would get interviews and get to a certain place, and then in, in getting his next job position. And when it got to that reference point and they’d say like, ‘Oh, he seems great.’ And you get all these signals. And then all of a sudden when it came to closing the deal, they would never hire him. So that ends up in you draining your 401K, you now don’t have, you know, you’re no longer gainfully employed, and now you’re blocklisted or blacklisted. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that is one of the other problems that just makes it, again, incredibly insidious that… I always talk about there’s this ‘Scarlet W’ on your chest that’s emblazoned. And that you may want to put it down, you may even want to put down the mantle of whistleblower, but often you’re not allowed to. And that is a cross that you are bearing again and again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, one of the things that really struck me just doing this reporting is the disconnect between the formal institutional stance, which says, you know, ‘The code of silence is banned. And we want, you know, we take all reports of employee misconduct very seriously, and we want people to come forward.’ And then that what actually happens in response to that. And I’m just wondering if either of you can speak to… is there a policy change that can fix this? Or because there is this disconnect already between policy and action, you know, do we need a different intervention? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a cultural problem much more than a policy problem. Though the policies obviously are then tied together because if you know that the company’s policy is that they’re going to, you know, they’re going to take every whistleblower complaint with this huge grain of salt, they’re not going to start from the presumption that the whistleblower is correct. They’re not going to start from the presumption, which is usually true, that the whistleblower is reporting this because they love the company or the organization or, you know, the group. They’re doing it out of love. They’re doing it because they want it to be better. They’ve, you know, they found a problem and they want to fix the problem, and they want to do it before someone from the outside finds out about the problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That so often is what the energy is that our clients bring when they’re coming forward. And what they’re met with is this culture of silence there. You know, you talk into a black box, you never hear what happens again. All too often, our clients say to us that we are the first person to ever listen to them about what they’re talking about. And that’s sad because we are never someone’s first call. We really aren’t. They’re always trying to get some change to happen before they resort to calling a whistleblower attorney — as as they should be, quite honestly. And if smart organizations and smart companies would just listen to their whistleblowers, they would put us out of a job. But that’s good. That would be better for everybody. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree, and there’s some really great empirical data and research coming out of George Washington University and the University of Utah that really reinforces this idea that whistleblowers are actually your best risk management tool. They’re the canaries in the coal mine that actually help you see a problem before we’re all overtaken by noxious fumes. And this research really basically underscores that companies that actually see whistleblowers in this way as, as, you know, people who can help mitigate risks and deal with problems before they metastasize into something like a big public relations scandal… If you use them in this way, it actually allows companies to be more profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think one of the biggest things that needs to happen is just an education on who whistleblowers really are. As Poppy said, whistleblowers are- not only are they not disloyal, they are your \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">most\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> loyal employees because it takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to be the type of employee who is going to tell you the hard truths at considerable potential risk to themselves. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you for coming into the studio and just lending your expertise and your empathy to this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Inman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s been a real pleasure to be on this podcast. It’s a real testament that the only way we’re going to get change is, is to, you know, point to really great investigative journalists like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Poppy Alexander: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely. It’s, it’s a horrible topic, but it brings great joy to talk about it because it’s so important and so misunderstood, quite honestly, I think, so much about the process of whistleblowing. And so every opportunity to be able to talk about it and really go in depth as you are in this podcast series is just invaluable. And it’s invaluable for the future whistleblowers, for the next person who finds themself in an uncomfortable situation where they really need to speak up and they don’t know what it means and they don’t know how. You know, the education of learning what that process looks like is something we all need to work on. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sukey Lewis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, that was Poppy Alexander and Mary Inman. They are also working right now with federal legislators to try and introduce a bill that would provide mental health support for whistleblowers. We have a link to Mary and Poppy’s website in our episode description, along with other resources for whistleblowers. Please continue to send tips or feedback about the series to On Our Watch at K-Q-E-D dot O-R-G. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was hosted by me, Sukey Lewis. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is also KQED’s Director of Podcasts. It was produced, scored, and cut by Chris Egusa. Final mixing by Christopher Beale. Original music by Ramtin Arablouei, including our theme song. Additional music from APM Music and Audio Network. Funding for On Our Watch is provided in part by Arnold Ventures and the California Endowment. Thank you to Katie Sprenger, our Podcast Operations Manager, our Managing Editor of News and Enterprise, Otis, R. Taylor, Jr., Ethan Toven-Lindsay, our Vice President of News, and KQED Chief Content Officer Holly Kernan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And thanks to all of you for listening. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>In 1997, Tommy Eugene Lewis III was \u003ca href=\"https://casetext.com/case/people-v-lewis-853\">sentenced\u003c/a> to 41 years to life in state prison for attempted murder after he shot and injured another driver. He was 18 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, at 43, Lewis was released from prison. He’d spent his entire adult life behind bars and wasn’t sure what was next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A friend directed him to the Center for Employment Opportunity (CEO), a nonprofit located near Skid Row in Los Angeles, which, despite its proximity, feels like a world apart. Housed in a modern, light-filled office complex above boutiques and restaurants, CEO more closely resembles a tech office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Tinisch Hollins, executive director, Californians for Safety and Justice\"]‘Proposition 47 is clearly demonstrating that when we take a broad and shared approach to safety that isn’t overly reliant on enforcement and prison incarceration, we get better safety outcomes.’[/pullquote]Offering more than just employment, CEO provides housing assistance, support services like legal aid and helps connect people with behavioral health specialists or therapists. Participants also receive same-day payment for their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They literally became like my side partner [and] my support network coming home,” said Lewis, who’s now employed as a peer navigator at CEO, helping other people as they enter the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you come home from incarceration, it’s very important to know that you have some people in your corner that can really assist you in your day-to-day living. Because it’s a different thing when you can’t have somewhere to stay or some food in your stomach or clothes on your back,” he said. “These are the things that will immediately make a person go to criminal thinking, right?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CEO is a grantee of Project imPACT, a program run by the Los Angeles Mayor’s Office of Reentry. It’s funded through California’s Proposition 47, which diverts money from incarcerating lower-level drug users and thieves and redirects it to reentry and rehabilitation programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986313\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986313\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An office building with chairs, computers, tables and pictures on the walls.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The CEO offices in downtown Los Angeles are adorned with art and motivational passages adorning the walls on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So far, the state has awarded more than $300 million in Proposition 47 savings to cities and counties around California with great success: Participants are far less likely to be convicted of a new crime and far more likely to have stable housing and employment, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bscc.ca.gov/s_bsccprop47/\">according to state data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert Johnson, director of strategic reentry initiatives for Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass, highlighted the transformative impact of programs like CEO. The mayor’s office has been awarded $18 million so far in Proposition 47 grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Johnson said the success of these programs is predicated on their holistic approach, the understanding that employment or housing isn’t enough if someone’s still struggling with mental health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the folks have been out [of prison] for years, decades, but still continue to experience barriers to what they need to live a productive, healthy, successful life,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=\"news_11982070,news_11982393,news_11975692\" label=\"Related Stories\"]Having overcome his own struggles, Johnson understands the people he serves. He spent time in and out of jail and was homeless with a baby of his own on the way when he finally got help 15 years ago from a community nonprofit similar to those now funded by Proposition 47.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes, the difference between success and failure is just having someone believe you can do it, Johnson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You continuously hear, “People gave me a shot. They gave me a chance, and they didn’t see me as my number … they didn’t see me as my worst mistake. They saw me as somebody working and really wanting to do the right thing”,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Johnson and others are worried that a backlash to criminal justice reforms, including Proposition 47, could roll back the progress Project imPACT is making.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campaign \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982070/campaign-to-roll-back-prop-47-criminal-justice-reforms-could-head-to-voters\">for a ballot measure that would reverse some parts of Proposition 47 \u003c/a>recently turned in signatures to state election officials in the hopes of qualifying for the November ballot. A \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/BallotAnalysis/Initiative/2023-017\">nonpartisan analysis of that initiative\u003c/a> found that it would likely increase state and local criminal justice costs by hundreds of millions of dollars and reduce the amount of money spent on Proposition 47 programs like Project imPACT.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A New Path to Rehabilitation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Proposition 47 passed in 2014 as the state grappled with overcrowded prisons and a U.S. Supreme Court order to reduce its prison population. The idea was that nonviolent drug users and people accused of minor property crimes should be offered treatment instead of jail time — and that by keeping those lower-level offenders out of jails and prisons, public funds could be spent instead on tackling the root causes that were leading people to use drugs or steal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past decade, the governor’s office said savings have topped $800 million. The bulk of those funds, 65%, is given to the Board of State and Community Corrections for programs that target mental health and substance abuse treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One-quarter of the savings is given to the Department of Education to fund truancy and dropout prevention programs, and 10% is allocated to trauma recovery centers for victims of crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The BSCC grant program has been incredibly successful: An \u003ca href=\"https://www.bscc.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/H-2-Proposition-47-Cohort-2-Final-Evaluation-Report-FINAL-1.pdf\">evaluation of the second round of grants\u003c/a>, which totaled almost $93 million and served nearly 22,000 people, found that homelessness among participants fell by 60%. Unemployment was cut in half. And only about 15% of participants were convicted of a new crime within three years of entering the Proposition 47-funded program, compared to 35 to 45% statewide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Project imPACT programs, that recidivism number was even lower: 7%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Johnson said those statistics illustrate the value of Proposition 47 in providing an alternate path to crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A young person can go get $1,000 easy off of a smash and grab. Well, what if we gave them a job or showed them how to create a business,” he said. “The more we address the root causes of crime and violence, the better outcomes we’ll see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, critics said Proposition 47-funded programs, while successful, are not reaching the same number of people being prosecuted before its passage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re nibbling on the problem with these programs,” Yolo County District Attorney Jeff Reisig said, estimating that Yolo County’s Proposition 47-funded program only served about 15% of the people that drug courts would have before the ballot measure passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which means, you know, there’s hundreds and hundreds of people running around who are seriously addicted. They’re sick, they’re using, they’re stealing, they’re homeless,” Reisig added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reisig also questioned whether the state’s recidivism data is accurate, noting that it is based on whether someone was convicted again only in the same county where they are receiving services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 47 supporters agree that the programs aren’t doing enough but said that’s an argument for increasing reentry and rehabilitation funding, not cutting it. They note that state prison spending topped $14 billion last fiscal year, compared to about $113 million in Proposition 47 savings in the same time period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The promise of Proposition 47 has always been that we’d get a clear glimpse of what would be possible if ever we invested in crime and harm prevention to scale,” said Tinisch Hollins, executive director of Californians for Safety and Justice, which wrote the original ballot measure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Proposition 47 is clearly demonstrating that when we take a broad and shared approach to safety that isn’t overly-reliant on enforcement and prison incarceration, we get better safety outcomes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Stories of Transformation: ‘It Instills Hope’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For participants in the Proposition 47 programs, the benefits are clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986307\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11986307 size-medium\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-800x1200.jpg\" alt=\"A headshot of a white man wearing glasses and a white shirt.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1200\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-1024x1536.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED.jpg 1333w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mitchell Kahn at the CEO offices in downtown Los Angeles on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mitchell Kahn served 18 years in prison. Now 56 years old, he’s living in a transitional home and working to get his commercial driver’s license so he can drive trucks for a living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a very different world,” Kahn said. “I went into prison at 36 years of age, coming out of working for a bank. …. And my first job out of prison was picking up things on the side of the freeway.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Kahn is now working to build a career, he said it’s not the most important help CEO and other Project imPACT programs have offered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past year, he said, “I got the ability to talk. When I came home from prison in October of last year, I had an extreme amount of anxiety, and I couldn’t always talk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He received help from a therapist and free acupuncture from a health care clinic funded by Project imPACT. It’s all given him the confidence to overcome his anxiety, he said, and figure out a sustainable career path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and others said it’s a process: The first job placement he received involved helping other people find employment at a different nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It wasn’t a good fit,” he said. “And I was able to come back and … share what happened. And I wasn’t blamed for it not working.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That flexibility and willingness to help participants find a job, housing, healthcare and other support is a key part of why Project imPACT programs are working, said Melanie Robledo, housing project manager at CEO. Robledo, like many CEO employees, started as a client.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I came home [from jail] in a black paper suit. I had nothing to my name. Being able to have my own income, I was able to do things that gave me a level of independence,” she said. “I bought my first pair of shoes. I was able to take my kids out to eat. I was able to contribute. So, it gives you that level of like, oh, my gosh, I’m doing this right. And it also instills hope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986308\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986308\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman wearing a white polo shirt leans against a window.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Melanie Robledo at CEO on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Robledo said she lost custody of her children, who are now 16 and 14, when she was cycling in and out of jail and struggling with mental illness, addiction and homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a level of disappointment, a level of shame, and a lot of other things that came with that. So, getting this job and going through the reentry process has been life-changing for me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robledo said it’s “empowering” to now model what change can look like, not just for her community but for her family, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I see my kids regularly. I’m at every sporting event,” she said. “It changed the whole trajectory of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986323\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986323\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"A Black man wearing a white hat, black vest and white shirt stands over a woman wearing a white shirt looking at a desktop screen in a building.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tommy Eugene Lewis III (right) and Melanie work closely together at the CEO offices on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Another Proposition 47-funded program in Los Angeles County is \u003ca href=\"https://www.shieldsforfamilies.org/\">SHIELDS for Families\u003c/a>, a reentry and workforce development program that largely receives client referrals from jails, probation agencies and community groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saun Hough is the vocational services manager at SHIELD; he’s also the partnerships manager at Californians for Safety and Justice, the group that sponsored Proposition 47. He said one of the reasons these programs are successful is that they stick with their clients: “We have a motto: you can’t outrun our love,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our goal is to stabilize, right? So, once you’re stable, and you’re earning, and you have readjusted, and you’re ready to go from reentry to reintegration, we still follow up with you. We still stay with you,” he said. “You get a job, and then you realize there’s a training that you need to move up to manager, come on back. Let’s work with you to see what it takes to get you there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s also true for people who walk away before completing the program, Hough said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We see people that don’t stick it out,” he said, “and then six months later… somebody is waiting in the lobby.”\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>In 1997, Tommy Eugene Lewis III was \u003ca href=\"https://casetext.com/case/people-v-lewis-853\">sentenced\u003c/a> to 41 years to life in state prison for attempted murder after he shot and injured another driver. He was 18 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, at 43, Lewis was released from prison. He’d spent his entire adult life behind bars and wasn’t sure what was next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A friend directed him to the Center for Employment Opportunity (CEO), a nonprofit located near Skid Row in Los Angeles, which, despite its proximity, feels like a world apart. Housed in a modern, light-filled office complex above boutiques and restaurants, CEO more closely resembles a tech office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Offering more than just employment, CEO provides housing assistance, support services like legal aid and helps connect people with behavioral health specialists or therapists. Participants also receive same-day payment for their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They literally became like my side partner [and] my support network coming home,” said Lewis, who’s now employed as a peer navigator at CEO, helping other people as they enter the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When you come home from incarceration, it’s very important to know that you have some people in your corner that can really assist you in your day-to-day living. Because it’s a different thing when you can’t have somewhere to stay or some food in your stomach or clothes on your back,” he said. “These are the things that will immediately make a person go to criminal thinking, right?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CEO is a grantee of Project imPACT, a program run by the Los Angeles Mayor’s Office of Reentry. It’s funded through California’s Proposition 47, which diverts money from incarcerating lower-level drug users and thieves and redirects it to reentry and rehabilitation programs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986313\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986313\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An office building with chairs, computers, tables and pictures on the walls.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-30-ZS-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The CEO offices in downtown Los Angeles are adorned with art and motivational passages adorning the walls on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>So far, the state has awarded more than $300 million in Proposition 47 savings to cities and counties around California with great success: Participants are far less likely to be convicted of a new crime and far more likely to have stable housing and employment, \u003ca href=\"https://www.bscc.ca.gov/s_bsccprop47/\">according to state data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gilbert Johnson, director of strategic reentry initiatives for Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass, highlighted the transformative impact of programs like CEO. The mayor’s office has been awarded $18 million so far in Proposition 47 grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Johnson said the success of these programs is predicated on their holistic approach, the understanding that employment or housing isn’t enough if someone’s still struggling with mental health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Some of the folks have been out [of prison] for years, decades, but still continue to experience barriers to what they need to live a productive, healthy, successful life,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Having overcome his own struggles, Johnson understands the people he serves. He spent time in and out of jail and was homeless with a baby of his own on the way when he finally got help 15 years ago from a community nonprofit similar to those now funded by Proposition 47.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes, the difference between success and failure is just having someone believe you can do it, Johnson said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You continuously hear, “People gave me a shot. They gave me a chance, and they didn’t see me as my number … they didn’t see me as my worst mistake. They saw me as somebody working and really wanting to do the right thing”,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Johnson and others are worried that a backlash to criminal justice reforms, including Proposition 47, could roll back the progress Project imPACT is making.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The campaign \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11982070/campaign-to-roll-back-prop-47-criminal-justice-reforms-could-head-to-voters\">for a ballot measure that would reverse some parts of Proposition 47 \u003c/a>recently turned in signatures to state election officials in the hopes of qualifying for the November ballot. A \u003ca href=\"https://lao.ca.gov/BallotAnalysis/Initiative/2023-017\">nonpartisan analysis of that initiative\u003c/a> found that it would likely increase state and local criminal justice costs by hundreds of millions of dollars and reduce the amount of money spent on Proposition 47 programs like Project imPACT.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A New Path to Rehabilitation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Proposition 47 passed in 2014 as the state grappled with overcrowded prisons and a U.S. Supreme Court order to reduce its prison population. The idea was that nonviolent drug users and people accused of minor property crimes should be offered treatment instead of jail time — and that by keeping those lower-level offenders out of jails and prisons, public funds could be spent instead on tackling the root causes that were leading people to use drugs or steal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past decade, the governor’s office said savings have topped $800 million. The bulk of those funds, 65%, is given to the Board of State and Community Corrections for programs that target mental health and substance abuse treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One-quarter of the savings is given to the Department of Education to fund truancy and dropout prevention programs, and 10% is allocated to trauma recovery centers for victims of crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The BSCC grant program has been incredibly successful: An \u003ca href=\"https://www.bscc.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/H-2-Proposition-47-Cohort-2-Final-Evaluation-Report-FINAL-1.pdf\">evaluation of the second round of grants\u003c/a>, which totaled almost $93 million and served nearly 22,000 people, found that homelessness among participants fell by 60%. Unemployment was cut in half. And only about 15% of participants were convicted of a new crime within three years of entering the Proposition 47-funded program, compared to 35 to 45% statewide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Project imPACT programs, that recidivism number was even lower: 7%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Johnson said those statistics illustrate the value of Proposition 47 in providing an alternate path to crime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A young person can go get $1,000 easy off of a smash and grab. Well, what if we gave them a job or showed them how to create a business,” he said. “The more we address the root causes of crime and violence, the better outcomes we’ll see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, critics said Proposition 47-funded programs, while successful, are not reaching the same number of people being prosecuted before its passage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re nibbling on the problem with these programs,” Yolo County District Attorney Jeff Reisig said, estimating that Yolo County’s Proposition 47-funded program only served about 15% of the people that drug courts would have before the ballot measure passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Which means, you know, there’s hundreds and hundreds of people running around who are seriously addicted. They’re sick, they’re using, they’re stealing, they’re homeless,” Reisig added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reisig also questioned whether the state’s recidivism data is accurate, noting that it is based on whether someone was convicted again only in the same county where they are receiving services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Proposition 47 supporters agree that the programs aren’t doing enough but said that’s an argument for increasing reentry and rehabilitation funding, not cutting it. They note that state prison spending topped $14 billion last fiscal year, compared to about $113 million in Proposition 47 savings in the same time period.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The promise of Proposition 47 has always been that we’d get a clear glimpse of what would be possible if ever we invested in crime and harm prevention to scale,” said Tinisch Hollins, executive director of Californians for Safety and Justice, which wrote the original ballot measure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Proposition 47 is clearly demonstrating that when we take a broad and shared approach to safety that isn’t overly-reliant on enforcement and prison incarceration, we get better safety outcomes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Stories of Transformation: ‘It Instills Hope’\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For participants in the Proposition 47 programs, the benefits are clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986307\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11986307 size-medium\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-800x1200.jpg\" alt=\"A headshot of a white man wearing glasses and a white shirt.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1200\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-800x1200.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-1020x1530.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED-1024x1536.jpg 1024w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-4-ZS-KQED.jpg 1333w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mitchell Kahn at the CEO offices in downtown Los Angeles on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mitchell Kahn served 18 years in prison. Now 56 years old, he’s living in a transitional home and working to get his commercial driver’s license so he can drive trucks for a living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a very different world,” Kahn said. “I went into prison at 36 years of age, coming out of working for a bank. …. And my first job out of prison was picking up things on the side of the freeway.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Kahn is now working to build a career, he said it’s not the most important help CEO and other Project imPACT programs have offered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the past year, he said, “I got the ability to talk. When I came home from prison in October of last year, I had an extreme amount of anxiety, and I couldn’t always talk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He received help from a therapist and free acupuncture from a health care clinic funded by Project imPACT. It’s all given him the confidence to overcome his anxiety, he said, and figure out a sustainable career path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and others said it’s a process: The first job placement he received involved helping other people find employment at a different nonprofit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It wasn’t a good fit,” he said. “And I was able to come back and … share what happened. And I wasn’t blamed for it not working.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That flexibility and willingness to help participants find a job, housing, healthcare and other support is a key part of why Project imPACT programs are working, said Melanie Robledo, housing project manager at CEO. Robledo, like many CEO employees, started as a client.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I came home [from jail] in a black paper suit. I had nothing to my name. Being able to have my own income, I was able to do things that gave me a level of independence,” she said. “I bought my first pair of shoes. I was able to take my kids out to eat. I was able to contribute. So, it gives you that level of like, oh, my gosh, I’m doing this right. And it also instills hope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986308\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986308\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman wearing a white polo shirt leans against a window.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-11-ZS-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Melanie Robledo at CEO on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Robledo said she lost custody of her children, who are now 16 and 14, when she was cycling in and out of jail and struggling with mental illness, addiction and homelessness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There was a level of disappointment, a level of shame, and a lot of other things that came with that. So, getting this job and going through the reentry process has been life-changing for me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robledo said it’s “empowering” to now model what change can look like, not just for her community but for her family, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I see my kids regularly. I’m at every sporting event,” she said. “It changed the whole trajectory of my life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11986323\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11986323\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"A Black man wearing a white hat, black vest and white shirt stands over a woman wearing a white shirt looking at a desktop screen in a building.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/05/CEO-STORY-23-ZS-KQED-1-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tommy Eugene Lewis III (right) and Melanie work closely together at the CEO offices on May 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Zaydee Sanchez for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Another Proposition 47-funded program in Los Angeles County is \u003ca href=\"https://www.shieldsforfamilies.org/\">SHIELDS for Families\u003c/a>, a reentry and workforce development program that largely receives client referrals from jails, probation agencies and community groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saun Hough is the vocational services manager at SHIELD; he’s also the partnerships manager at Californians for Safety and Justice, the group that sponsored Proposition 47. He said one of the reasons these programs are successful is that they stick with their clients: “We have a motto: you can’t outrun our love,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our goal is to stabilize, right? So, once you’re stable, and you’re earning, and you have readjusted, and you’re ready to go from reentry to reintegration, we still follow up with you. We still stay with you,” he said. “You get a job, and then you realize there’s a training that you need to move up to manager, come on back. Let’s work with you to see what it takes to get you there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s also true for people who walk away before completing the program, Hough said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We see people that don’t stick it out,” he said, “and then six months later… somebody is waiting in the lobby.”\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
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