It’s easy to see a child’s education as a path determined by grades, test scores and extracurricular activities. But genuine learning is about so much more than the points schools tally. MindShift explores the future of education by highlighting the innovative – and sometimes counterintuitive – ways educators are helping all children succeed.
Ki is the senior editor of MindShift. Prior to joining MindShift in 2014, she was a digital news trainer at NPR, where she gained valuable lessons about how people learn and the support needed to implement change. She cares deeply about finding solutions that help children and loves meeting educators who create meaningful learning experiences for their students. At KQED, she leads diversity, equity and inclusion efforts and spearheaded our first source audit. She makes incredible kimchi, writes fiction and dreams of hiking the Camino de Santiago.
Nimah Gobir
Podcast host/Writer
Nimah is a writer and producer for MindShift. She has worked with young learners in many capacities including teacher, curriculum developer, and youth media producer. Each role offered a window into the different ways caregivers and educators strive to meet children’s needs and promote meaningful learning experiences in and out of the classroom. Nimah is committed to exploring stories about how to make learning more equitable, accessible, and magical for all students.
Chris Hambrick
Editor
Chris is an editor for KQED Podcasts and loves holding the big picture vision for shows. Previously they were a producer for Spooked Podcast from Snap Judgment Studios, host for The Tracklist on KGPC, as well as White Rabbit Story Hour podcast. They have contributed to KALW, KQED’s Bay Curious, and facilitated for national oral history project, StoryCorps. Sometimes, if you’re lucky, you can catch her telling stories on the Mortified, SFLitCrawl or Moth stages.
Seth Samuel
Sound Designer
Seth is a six-time Emmy Award-winning composer and sound designer. He is the score composer for PBS and KQED’s video series Deep Look, composer for the podcast Against The Rules With Michael Lewis; and the sound designer for podcasts from KQED, KALW, CPR, Radiotopia, Mother Jones, and Al Jazeera. He lives in Denver, Colorado with his brilliant wife, his brilliant son, his brilliant Australian shepherd, and their latest foster cat (the intelligence of which varies from cat to cat).
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Support for MindShift is provided by the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, sponsors and the members of KQED.
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We’re literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. 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These programs connect academic learning to industries such as healthcare, construction, information technology and advanced manufacturing. For some students, they lead directly to jobs. For others, they provide confidence, direction and a clearer sense of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal ultimately is that students are asking far less often, ‘Why do I have to learn this?'” Warren said. “We’re making those connections so they understand how what they’re learning relates to what they might do in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66457\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66457\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1030\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-160x141.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-768x676.jpeg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>College or Career? Increasingly, Schools Say Both\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Career education has often been treated as secondary to college-preparatory academics. But that framing is changing as programs like agriculture or manufacturing courses lead to more advanced pathways like networking, engineering or healthcare training. “The purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in an applied setting,” said Thomas Torre Gibney, a research scientist at WestEd who studies college and career readiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of real-world learning can help students understand why academic skills matter. Math, communication, biology, teamwork and professionalism stop feeling abstract when students can see how they are used in a workplace setting that may be part of their near future. In phlebotomy, for example, students learn that 50-70% of all medical diagnoses rely on the results of the blood draws, making the accuracy of a blood draw critically important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As college costs rise and families consider whether debt is worthwhile, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">more attention has turned to alternatives\u003c/a> and complements to the traditional four-year route. While research still shows that a college degree pays off and leads to higher earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma, researchers and educators increasingly say CTE does not need to be an either/or choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another camp out there,” Torre Gibney said, “that sees no distinction between post-secondary preparation and CTE programming.” In that model, “CTE is preparation for college and career with the emphasis on the ‘and.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students might earn an industry credential in high school, begin working, then return later for more education. Others may use early career experience to confirm they want to pursue a degree. This concept is often described as \u003ca href=\"https://octae.ed.gov/cte/initiatives/credentials\">stackable credentials\u003c/a>: education that can build over time instead of requiring one uninterrupted path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rhode Island has emerged as one of the states experimenting with this model. The state has expanded career pathways in areas including aquaponics, green energy, aviation, pre-medicine and cosmetology, while maintaining college-preparatory requirements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“College is still our north star,” said Angélica Infante-Green, commissioner of the Rhode Island Department of Education at the \u003ca href=\"https://ewa.org/\">Education Writers Association\u003c/a> conference in June. The goal, she said, is to expand students’ options, not limit them. “We don’t want to send the message that one is more important than the other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At ARISE, students are required to take at least two dual-enrollment college courses alongside their career pathway classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They graduate ARISE feeling like they’re familiar with college-level rigor,” Warren said. That familiarity can be especially important for first-generation college students. Rather than stepping into something entirely unfamiliar after high school, college becomes a continuation of a path they’ve already begun.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A Classroom Where the Work Is Real\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At another phlebotomy training course in San Jose, students from Summit-Tahoma High School spend two weeks learning how to draw blood. When students go around to introduce themselves in a class that includes 14 high schoolers, many talk about an interest in pursuing medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66455\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 252px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-66455\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9937.jpeg\" alt=\"Woman smiling for portrait.\" width=\"252\" height=\"280\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Lowe works at Bay Area Medical Academy, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. (Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the first day, instructor Tracy Lowe asks for a volunteer. She works for the \u003ca href=\"https://bamasf.edu/\">Bay Area Medical Academy\u003c/a>, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. The rest of the students gather around as she demonstrates a blood draw, expertly tying a tourniquet, locating a vein, disinfecting the skin and inserting a needle into the student’s arm. Soon, the students will be doing the same thing themselves. One of their first in class assignments is to practice tying tourniquets on each others’ upper arms and they are instructed to practice tying the stretchy blue bands around their thighs as homework that evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next two weeks they’ll learn how to identify veins, handle medical equipment, follow sterile procedures and perform blood draws under close supervision from clinical instructors. Unlike many academic classes, mistakes are expected. Only one student, a junior named Olivia, successfully completes a blood draw on her first day.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why Exposure Matters\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For educators like Devonna Alatorre, who oversees CTE programs at Summit-Tahoma High School, the point is bigger than one certification. “My focus within it is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school,” she said. “It gives students an opportunity to have a concrete entryway into healthcare,” Alatorre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She doesn’t see college and career preparation as opposites. “We see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teenagers are often asked to make big postsecondary decisions with limited firsthand knowledge of different careers. CTE can change that. A student who enjoys working with patients may discover a pathway into nursing, medical assisting or laboratory work. Another may realize that blood, needles or clinical environments are not for them. “I know for sure I want to be a nurse,” said Olivia, the Summit-Tahoma student who made the successful blood draw. “I think this will help me get there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many educators argue that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66081/young-employed-and-unhappy\">changing your mind can be just as valuable\u003c/a> as confirming a career goal. Research on career pathways suggests that students often carry forward skills, confidence and self-knowledge even when they ultimately choose a different field. Both outcomes are useful. Instead of guessing about the future, students gain evidence. “Our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success,” said Alatorre\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That may mean college for some students. For others, it may mean work, apprenticeships, certificates or a combination of all three over time. And in one classroom, it may mean something even more immediate: A high school student confidently saying, “Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You’re listening to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our story begins in a classroom. But probably not the kind you’re used to. Definitely not the kind I’m used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this high school classroom, there are desks with needles, tourniquets, and blood vials. 10 students from Summit Tahoma high school in San Jose gather around a table at the front of the room .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Everyone’s here for phlebotomy. Like everyone’s here in the same place, everyone’s for the same reason. We’re all taking phlebotomy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Meaning drawing blood, And it is taught by Tracy Lowe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It’s my job and my opportunity and it’s really my pleasure to be able to instruct this class for you. [00:19:08][5.2]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here Tracy leans forward to tap the desk in front of her for emphasis\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys are in a phlebotomy class, which means we are going to start phlebotomy today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students look on for their first demonstration. Tracy will walk them through how to draw blood. She starts by making sure everything is exactly where she needs it.\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> We have these caddies here, and we supply you with the equipment that you’ll need for the day. [00:16:31][6.0]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I take a peek into the caddy. It has a bunch of tubes with colored caps and alcohol wipes, and several capped needles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I draw someone’s blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s the first day of a two week long course. But a brave soul raises his hand and walks to the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right, can he sit in your seat? and I’m going to show you guys so come on up come on up, gather around. I’m gonna show you guys the…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy demonstrates the way she wants her students to start: warm, confident, and clear. She introduces herself, states her intention and asks for consent all in a matter of seconds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name’s Tracey. I’m here from the lab. Do you mind if I draw your blood? Yes. OK, cool. Which arm do you want to use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The volunteer says either arm is fine. And after Tracy takes a look at both arms she lays the right one on top of the sterile surface..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Alright. I’m going to get everything set up. I’m gonna get my gloves on. So sanitize my hands, get my glove on. I’m getting everything I need. We use alcohol wipes…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy takes out an alcohol wipe, needle, tape with a little cotton ball stuck to it, and a tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The tourniquet goes on tight enough to restrict the venous access. It helps to plump the veins up. And a good tourniquet is gonna be your number one asset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She ties it snugly around his forearm. And tells students where the needle will go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Typically we’re going to try and draw here in what’s called the antecubital region which is right here. Nimah Gobir: She points to an area on the inside of the elbow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> When you’re feeling for a vein. I want you not to be shy. You’ve got to mush your finger and we call it palpating, okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She presses at the arm with gloved fingertips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So we’re going to palpate for the vein by pushing your finger in. Once you feel the vein, I want to you to commit to the entire area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She finds what she’s looking for AND she starts tapping lightly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The veins should feel like you have like a water balloon and you’re tapping it. It’s gonna like spring back at you. It’s like bouncy and springy and spongy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe: \u003c/strong> I’m just going to take my wipe and wipe down. Throw that out. Alcohol and trash goes in there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy picks up her needle, and the whole class seems to move in a bit to get a better look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to do this at a 30 degree angle and 30 degrees means I’m going to be able to go in like this and kind of arrive at where these fingers are touching on the patient’s skin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the needle first goes in nothing happens. That’s normal. Tracy adjusts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You’re like oh my gosh what do I do I’ll tell you what you do you take your finger and you feel gently where’s the vein right there over there so what I need to do is come back just like that see how easy that was to it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She repositions the needle. All at once, the tube that was attached to the needle starts to fill up with dark red blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to switch out my tube by putting a finger here to balance it, pull that off, and I put my second tube on there. [00:24:19][9.1]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the students faints. They get her seated in a chair. She’s a little shaken, but okay. And this happens.The sight of blood can make people woozy. But it’s also a reminder: this is real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This isn’t a classroom where they talk about doing things — they actually do them. And starting on this first day they’ll begin drawing blood themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>My name is Angela. You can call me Angie. You don’t have to call me instructor Angie. That’s a long title.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angie is one of the clinical instructors that will work with students on their blood draws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>I am an EMT. I’ve been an EMT since 2008. I decided to go back to phlebotomy school years ago to increase my value. To be an emergency room technician so then I took a phlebotomy. I did a phlebotomy then I became a phlebotomy lab instructor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The class is still buzzing from what just happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong> Welcome to the real world of phlebotomy school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong> OK, so of course, now everybody’s like, OMG, right? It happens. Prime example, it can happen just like that when you’re working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>Where are the tourniquets? Let’s go. Let’s practice those first because we can’t draw a thing without one. So everybody grab a blue tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Each student grabs a stretchy blue tourniquet and watches Angie demonstrate how to tie it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: Y\u003c/strong>ou bring it even enough, you grab with this hand, You pull, and you let go.. Yeah, I made that look really easy, right? I know. So everybody grab a partner…and let’s do that first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>They pair up and practice tying tourniquets around each other’s arms.They know from watching Tracy that this small step makes everything else possible. We’ll check back in on their progress later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this phlebotomy course students are handling materials, practicing, and messing up. This all falls under what is called career and technical education – known as CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE is a remarkably common feature of American high schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thomas Torre Gibney works at west ed, a research organization. He studies career and technical education for high schoolers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So CTE as an elective course can range from anything from intro to agricultural science, to intro to manufacturing, to more advanced coursework that might be applied in a specific program of study, like phlebotomy or networking in an information technology program of studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Most CTE programs are designed around specific industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> And the purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in typically like an applied setting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And in many cases—like this phlebotomy class—these programs are built directly into the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: CTE itself has been changing. And lately, it’s been getting more attention\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So nowadays what we’re seeing is a real public debate around the value of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Normal American families are asking hard questions about whether taking on the debt to attain a college degree is worth it in the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Especially as people become more scared of AI taking jobs.Research still shows that having a college degree pays off,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Students who have a college degree tend to outperform their peers in the labor market. They have higher lifetime average earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But CTE doesn’t have to be an alternative to college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE has historically suffered from a stigma. Historically we’ve seen that students who were considered to be quote-unquote not college material would disproportionately be routed into these programs in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That history still shapes how people think about CTE today. And it’s something educators, researchers, and policymakers are actively trying to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way educators are trying to bridge that divide is through something called stackable credentials.These are certifications that build on one another\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So a lot of states are trying to think deeply about what do stackable credentials look like such that students could have on ramps and off ramps into their post-secondary study as it suits their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s what that can look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Maybe a student concentrates in a carpentry program of study in high school and due to, you know, financial concerns they might opt to go directly into the labor market right out of high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> They need to earn money instead of taking on debt and going into higher education program. Well, the idea is that let’s say that student, you know, takes part in an apprenticeship, they get some certification that has value in the labor market. At a later time in their life they may decide to go back to school and go in a different direction or build on that credential and say, okay, you know, actually, I really want to be a general contractor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So I’d like to go on and get a bachelor’s degree in construction management, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words: a student meets the needs of their life in the moment. Goes to work, build experience and later return to school when it makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna Alatorre is in charge of Summit Tahoma High School’ s CTE programs—that’s where the students from the phlebotomy class go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre\u003c/strong>: My focus is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nimah Gobir: This is the school’s first year sending students off-campus for phlebotomy training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre: \u003c/strong>It gives students an opportunity to have like a concrete entryway into healthcare, which as we know is like a field with strong demand. It gives them a certification pathway and an opportunity to continue learning essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna doesn’t see CTE and college as opposite pathways\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Honestly, we see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some students, phlebotomy might be the job they stick with for their whole career. For others, it’s a first step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Something like Phlebotomy doesn’t close doors or narrow the pathway for them, it is opening up opportunities for them. And students are gaining context for what they’re studying, motivation for why academics matter, and sometimes even a clearer sense of purpose with these types of opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The goal isn’t necessarily to produce lifelong phlebotomists. It’s to send students forward with skills, habits, and a clearer sense of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> And our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a short break. And when we get back we’ll see what the students are up to\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The blood draws might be the most dramatic part of this program, but there’s more to the job. To do phlebotomy, you also have to handle patients. Tracy the phlebotomy instructor talks to the students about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient comes with a unique experience. Every patient comes a unique backstory. Every patient has a unique set of feelings about getting their blood drawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I will also say this. Most patients don’t love it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says that if you do phlebotomy you’ll be performing blood draws on people of a variety of ages, backgrounds and relationship to healthcare. And some of these people are getting their blood drawn because they want answers about their health. She writes some stats on the whiteboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> 50 to 70% of all of the diagnosis, stems from the results of the blood draw, which is a huge amount of emphasis put on the results of the blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So even though we have quick interactions with the patient, it counts for a lot, like, it’s weighted very heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You might remember how Tracy began the very first demonstration: by introducing herself and asking permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It really begins and ends with tell me your name, tell me you did a birth, let’s take a look at your arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though it is quick and they might see 50 different people that day. Each patient needs to be treated like the most important person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient in front you has the need to have your exceptional and undivided attention on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means professionalism. Students should wear their badges, pronounce names correctly and use the right gender pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The engagement that you have with the patient can really be the difference with them feeling like, hey, I felt seen this time, I heard this time. I felt like I was acknowledged as a person, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys get to be the changing face of health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I return towards the end of their two week program, students are more comfortable.They’ve been drawing each others blood for about 10 days. Some have small bruises called hematomas from early mistakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’m amazed by how close they’ve become to each other. They’re teenagers, so their friend groups are still intact, but this class has brought them physically close in a different way: They know each other’s veins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Alyssa’s arm is pretty good. Some hands are better, like Kai’s hands, I was able to get hers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia is a 17 year old senior. She was actually able to have a successful draw on her first day, which is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> We came in from lunch, she’s talking, she was like, okay, who’s ready to do blood draw? So I’m like, ooh. I did draw the first. I was the only student to draw on the day with Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> By now, she’s confident.So when I ask her if she’s comfortable drawing my blood. She gives me a little shrug and says okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Okay, you want to sit down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She treats me like a real patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia\u003c/strong>: Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today. Could I get blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> Yes, you may. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Um, can I get your name and date of birth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I gave it. I’m a Saittarius\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Do you, are you prone to fainting when getting blood drawn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> No, fortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As she preps her station. she makes some small talk with me about my work—just like at my doctor’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I’m just going to check your veins right now. I’m going to put the tourniquet on and then I’ll do some palpating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s feeling for a bounce like they’re been taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> So you have a vein right here going upward. It’s decently long. So I’ll do this arm. I want you to put your, put your fist, and you’re going to put it underneath. So you can keep your arm nice and straight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A small pinch tells me she’s put the needle in but I’m looking away trying to be as still as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> You okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And …nothing happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I think it rolled, oddly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A rolled vein just means it moved—something that happens more often than you’d think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She calls over Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>Angie?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I think she rolled. I don’t know if you can feel it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>This is great. This is this is great for you because then you say, you know, I can’t get it. I’m sorry you’re vein rolled…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m sorry, your vein rolled over. Can I see your other arm?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Take two. I roll up my other sleeve and position my arm on the table. When Oliva identifies the vein in this arms she lets me know that it looks a little smaller, but she’s going to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>There we go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. Olivia! Okayyy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I watch my blood start to fill the tube—dark red, faster than I expect. After she tapes a cotton ball to my arm, she hands me my sealed tube of blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>And then your blood is really warm. It’s really warm as soon as it comes out your body it’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>It’s so creepy.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After taking this two week course students can decide to take a certification exam.Those who pass the exam and want to continue can return here for an externship. Which means they’ll come back to this facility to practice blood draws until they fulfill their requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia plans to continue\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m quite enjoying the class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For her, phlebotomy is part of her bigger career goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I decided to do this program because I know for sure I want be a nurse, so trying to work towards that. And I think this will help me get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This phlebotomy class has given students like Olivia confidence, skills, and momentum before they ever set foot in a college lecture hall. For other students, the takeaway is different. Some realize that blood, needles, and clinical settings aren’t for them. All of that is valuable information. changing your mind can be part of the point—students still leave with transferable skills and a clearer sense of what kinds of work fit them best.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exposure lends itself to clarity. By the time they graduate high school, they won’t just be guessing about what fields they’re interested in pursuing. They’ll have evidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Why Hands-On Career Training and Academics Go Hand-in-Hand | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele. “We're getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We're literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.” Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the first semester at ARISE High School in Oakland, several teachers have bandages on their fingertips as part of their jobs. It’s not because of a sudden rise in paper cuts. It’s because students have started practicing finger pricks as part of a phlebotomy certification program and teachers are their willing clientele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re getting stuck on a weekly basis,” said John Warren, ARISE’s director of community learning and engagement. “We’re literally offering up our blood to our students in order to give them practice.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. Once students pass their requirements, they can become certified phlebotomists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Phlebotomy is just one of several career-focused offerings at ARISE as part of its \u003ca href=\"https://www.ousd.org/high-school-linked-learning-office\">Linked Learning program\u003c/a>, California’s version of career and technical education, often called CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the country, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">schools are expanding career\u003c/a> and technical education. These programs connect academic learning to industries such as healthcare, construction, information technology and advanced manufacturing. For some students, they lead directly to jobs. For others, they provide confidence, direction and a clearer sense of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The goal ultimately is that students are asking far less often, ‘Why do I have to learn this?'” Warren said. “We’re making those connections so they understand how what they’re learning relates to what they might do in the future.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66457\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-66457\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1030\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943.jpeg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-160x141.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9943-768x676.jpeg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Phlebotomy is the practice of drawing blood for medical testing, transfusions and other procedures. It requires technical skill, careful attention to safety and the ability to put anxious patients at ease. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>College or Career? Increasingly, Schools Say Both\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Career education has often been treated as secondary to college-preparatory academics. But that framing is changing as programs like agriculture or manufacturing courses lead to more advanced pathways like networking, engineering or healthcare training. “The purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in an applied setting,” said Thomas Torre Gibney, a research scientist at WestEd who studies college and career readiness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That kind of real-world learning can help students understand why academic skills matter. Math, communication, biology, teamwork and professionalism stop feeling abstract when students can see how they are used in a workplace setting that may be part of their near future. In phlebotomy, for example, students learn that 50-70% of all medical diagnoses rely on the results of the blood draws, making the accuracy of a blood draw critically important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As college costs rise and families consider whether debt is worthwhile, \u003ca href=\"https://www.chalkbeat.org/2025/10/03/will-students-benefit-with-career-technical-education-at-labor-department/\">more attention has turned to alternatives\u003c/a> and complements to the traditional four-year route. While research still shows that a college degree pays off and leads to higher earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma, researchers and educators increasingly say CTE does not need to be an either/or choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s another camp out there,” Torre Gibney said, “that sees no distinction between post-secondary preparation and CTE programming.” In that model, “CTE is preparation for college and career with the emphasis on the ‘and.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students might earn an industry credential in high school, begin working, then return later for more education. Others may use early career experience to confirm they want to pursue a degree. This concept is often described as \u003ca href=\"https://octae.ed.gov/cte/initiatives/credentials\">stackable credentials\u003c/a>: education that can build over time instead of requiring one uninterrupted path.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rhode Island has emerged as one of the states experimenting with this model. The state has expanded career pathways in areas including aquaponics, green energy, aviation, pre-medicine and cosmetology, while maintaining college-preparatory requirements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“College is still our north star,” said Angélica Infante-Green, commissioner of the Rhode Island Department of Education at the \u003ca href=\"https://ewa.org/\">Education Writers Association\u003c/a> conference in June. The goal, she said, is to expand students’ options, not limit them. “We don’t want to send the message that one is more important than the other.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At ARISE, students are required to take at least two dual-enrollment college courses alongside their career pathway classes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They graduate ARISE feeling like they’re familiar with college-level rigor,” Warren said. That familiarity can be especially important for first-generation college students. Rather than stepping into something entirely unfamiliar after high school, college becomes a continuation of a path they’ve already begun.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A Classroom Where the Work Is Real\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At another phlebotomy training course in San Jose, students from Summit-Tahoma High School spend two weeks learning how to draw blood. When students go around to introduce themselves in a class that includes 14 high schoolers, many talk about an interest in pursuing medical care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_66455\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 252px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-66455\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/07/IMG_9937.jpeg\" alt=\"Woman smiling for portrait.\" width=\"252\" height=\"280\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Lowe works at Bay Area Medical Academy, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. (Courtesy of Tracy Lowe)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On the first day, instructor Tracy Lowe asks for a volunteer. She works for the \u003ca href=\"https://bamasf.edu/\">Bay Area Medical Academy\u003c/a>, which trains the students in schools, including at ARISE Academy. The rest of the students gather around as she demonstrates a blood draw, expertly tying a tourniquet, locating a vein, disinfecting the skin and inserting a needle into the student’s arm. Soon, the students will be doing the same thing themselves. One of their first in class assignments is to practice tying tourniquets on each others’ upper arms and they are instructed to practice tying the stretchy blue bands around their thighs as homework that evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the next two weeks they’ll learn how to identify veins, handle medical equipment, follow sterile procedures and perform blood draws under close supervision from clinical instructors. Unlike many academic classes, mistakes are expected. Only one student, a junior named Olivia, successfully completes a blood draw on her first day.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why Exposure Matters\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For educators like Devonna Alatorre, who oversees CTE programs at Summit-Tahoma High School, the point is bigger than one certification. “My focus within it is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school,” she said. “It gives students an opportunity to have a concrete entryway into healthcare,” Alatorre said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She doesn’t see college and career preparation as opposites. “We see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teenagers are often asked to make big postsecondary decisions with limited firsthand knowledge of different careers. CTE can change that. A student who enjoys working with patients may discover a pathway into nursing, medical assisting or laboratory work. Another may realize that blood, needles or clinical environments are not for them. “I know for sure I want to be a nurse,” said Olivia, the Summit-Tahoma student who made the successful blood draw. “I think this will help me get there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many educators argue that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66081/young-employed-and-unhappy\">changing your mind can be just as valuable\u003c/a> as confirming a career goal. Research on career pathways suggests that students often carry forward skills, confidence and self-knowledge even when they ultimately choose a different field. Both outcomes are useful. Instead of guessing about the future, students gain evidence. “Our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success,” said Alatorre\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That may mean college for some students. For others, it may mean work, apprenticeships, certificates or a combination of all three over time. And in one classroom, it may mean something even more immediate: A high school student confidently saying, “Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3636485791\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You’re listening to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our story begins in a classroom. But probably not the kind you’re used to. Definitely not the kind I’m used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this high school classroom, there are desks with needles, tourniquets, and blood vials. 10 students from Summit Tahoma high school in San Jose gather around a table at the front of the room .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Everyone’s here for phlebotomy. Like everyone’s here in the same place, everyone’s for the same reason. We’re all taking phlebotomy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Meaning drawing blood, And it is taught by Tracy Lowe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It’s my job and my opportunity and it’s really my pleasure to be able to instruct this class for you. [00:19:08][5.2]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here Tracy leans forward to tap the desk in front of her for emphasis\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys are in a phlebotomy class, which means we are going to start phlebotomy today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students look on for their first demonstration. Tracy will walk them through how to draw blood. She starts by making sure everything is exactly where she needs it.\u003cspan style=\"text-decoration: line-through\">\u003cbr />\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> We have these caddies here, and we supply you with the equipment that you’ll need for the day. [00:16:31][6.0]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I take a peek into the caddy. It has a bunch of tubes with colored caps and alcohol wipes, and several capped needles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I draw someone’s blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s the first day of a two week long course. But a brave soul raises his hand and walks to the front.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> All right, can he sit in your seat? and I’m going to show you guys so come on up come on up, gather around. I’m gonna show you guys the…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy demonstrates the way she wants her students to start: warm, confident, and clear. She introduces herself, states her intention and asks for consent all in a matter of seconds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Hi, my name’s Tracey. I’m here from the lab. Do you mind if I draw your blood? Yes. OK, cool. Which arm do you want to use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The volunteer says either arm is fine. And after Tracy takes a look at both arms she lays the right one on top of the sterile surface..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Alright. I’m going to get everything set up. I’m gonna get my gloves on. So sanitize my hands, get my glove on. I’m getting everything I need. We use alcohol wipes…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy takes out an alcohol wipe, needle, tape with a little cotton ball stuck to it, and a tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The tourniquet goes on tight enough to restrict the venous access. It helps to plump the veins up. And a good tourniquet is gonna be your number one asset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She ties it snugly around his forearm. And tells students where the needle will go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Typically we’re going to try and draw here in what’s called the antecubital region which is right here. Nimah Gobir: She points to an area on the inside of the elbow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> When you’re feeling for a vein. I want you not to be shy. You’ve got to mush your finger and we call it palpating, okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She presses at the arm with gloved fingertips.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So we’re going to palpate for the vein by pushing your finger in. Once you feel the vein, I want to you to commit to the entire area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She finds what she’s looking for AND she starts tapping lightly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The veins should feel like you have like a water balloon and you’re tapping it. It’s gonna like spring back at you. It’s like bouncy and springy and spongy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe: \u003c/strong> I’m just going to take my wipe and wipe down. Throw that out. Alcohol and trash goes in there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Tracy picks up her needle, and the whole class seems to move in a bit to get a better look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to do this at a 30 degree angle and 30 degrees means I’m going to be able to go in like this and kind of arrive at where these fingers are touching on the patient’s skin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the needle first goes in nothing happens. That’s normal. Tracy adjusts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You’re like oh my gosh what do I do I’ll tell you what you do you take your finger and you feel gently where’s the vein right there over there so what I need to do is come back just like that see how easy that was to it up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She repositions the needle. All at once, the tube that was attached to the needle starts to fill up with dark red blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I’m going to switch out my tube by putting a finger here to balance it, pull that off, and I put my second tube on there. [00:24:19][9.1]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the students faints. They get her seated in a chair. She’s a little shaken, but okay. And this happens.The sight of blood can make people woozy. But it’s also a reminder: this is real.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This isn’t a classroom where they talk about doing things — they actually do them. And starting on this first day they’ll begin drawing blood themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>My name is Angela. You can call me Angie. You don’t have to call me instructor Angie. That’s a long title.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angie is one of the clinical instructors that will work with students on their blood draws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>I am an EMT. I’ve been an EMT since 2008. I decided to go back to phlebotomy school years ago to increase my value. To be an emergency room technician so then I took a phlebotomy. I did a phlebotomy then I became a phlebotomy lab instructor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The class is still buzzing from what just happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong> Welcome to the real world of phlebotomy school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong> OK, so of course, now everybody’s like, OMG, right? It happens. Prime example, it can happen just like that when you’re working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: \u003c/strong>Where are the tourniquets? Let’s go. Let’s practice those first because we can’t draw a thing without one. So everybody grab a blue tourniquet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Each student grabs a stretchy blue tourniquet and watches Angie demonstrate how to tie it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson: Y\u003c/strong>ou bring it even enough, you grab with this hand, You pull, and you let go.. Yeah, I made that look really easy, right? I know. So everybody grab a partner…and let’s do that first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>They pair up and practice tying tourniquets around each other’s arms.They know from watching Tracy that this small step makes everything else possible. We’ll check back in on their progress later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this phlebotomy course students are handling materials, practicing, and messing up. This all falls under what is called career and technical education – known as CTE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE is a remarkably common feature of American high schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thomas Torre Gibney works at west ed, a research organization. He studies career and technical education for high schoolers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So CTE as an elective course can range from anything from intro to agricultural science, to intro to manufacturing, to more advanced coursework that might be applied in a specific program of study, like phlebotomy or networking in an information technology program of studies\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Most CTE programs are designed around specific industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> And the purpose of this programming is to expose students to relevant hands-on real world work in typically like an applied setting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And in many cases—like this phlebotomy class—these programs are built directly into the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: CTE itself has been changing. And lately, it’s been getting more attention\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So nowadays what we’re seeing is a real public debate around the value of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Normal American families are asking hard questions about whether taking on the debt to attain a college degree is worth it in the long term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Especially as people become more scared of AI taking jobs.Research still shows that having a college degree pays off,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Students who have a college degree tend to outperform their peers in the labor market. They have higher lifetime average earnings compared to students who only have a high school diploma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But CTE doesn’t have to be an alternative to college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney: \u003c/strong> CTE has historically suffered from a stigma. Historically we’ve seen that students who were considered to be quote-unquote not college material would disproportionately be routed into these programs in high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That history still shapes how people think about CTE today. And it’s something educators, researchers, and policymakers are actively trying to undo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One way educators are trying to bridge that divide is through something called stackable credentials.These are certifications that build on one another\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So a lot of states are trying to think deeply about what do stackable credentials look like such that students could have on ramps and off ramps into their post-secondary study as it suits their life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s what that can look like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> Maybe a student concentrates in a carpentry program of study in high school and due to, you know, financial concerns they might opt to go directly into the labor market right out of high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> They need to earn money instead of taking on debt and going into higher education program. Well, the idea is that let’s say that student, you know, takes part in an apprenticeship, they get some certification that has value in the labor market. At a later time in their life they may decide to go back to school and go in a different direction or build on that credential and say, okay, you know, actually, I really want to be a general contractor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Thomas Torre Gibney:\u003c/strong> So I’d like to go on and get a bachelor’s degree in construction management, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words: a student meets the needs of their life in the moment. Goes to work, build experience and later return to school when it makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna Alatorre is in charge of Summit Tahoma High School’ s CTE programs—that’s where the students from the phlebotomy class go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre\u003c/strong>: My focus is basically connecting student learning with life beyond high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nimah Gobir: This is the school’s first year sending students off-campus for phlebotomy training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre: \u003c/strong>It gives students an opportunity to have like a concrete entryway into healthcare, which as we know is like a field with strong demand. It gives them a certification pathway and an opportunity to continue learning essentially.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Devonna doesn’t see CTE and college as opposite pathways\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Honestly, we see them as connected and critical for all students as they make decisions around their life after high school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some students, phlebotomy might be the job they stick with for their whole career. For others, it’s a first step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> Something like Phlebotomy doesn’t close doors or narrow the pathway for them, it is opening up opportunities for them. And students are gaining context for what they’re studying, motivation for why academics matter, and sometimes even a clearer sense of purpose with these types of opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The goal isn’t necessarily to produce lifelong phlebotomists. It’s to send students forward with skills, habits, and a clearer sense of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devonna Alatorre:\u003c/strong> And our goal is to prepare them for life and not just focusing on one definition of success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a short break. And when we get back we’ll see what the students are up to\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The blood draws might be the most dramatic part of this program, but there’s more to the job. To do phlebotomy, you also have to handle patients. Tracy the phlebotomy instructor talks to the students about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient comes with a unique experience. Every patient comes a unique backstory. Every patient has a unique set of feelings about getting their blood drawn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> I will also say this. Most patients don’t love it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says that if you do phlebotomy you’ll be performing blood draws on people of a variety of ages, backgrounds and relationship to healthcare. And some of these people are getting their blood drawn because they want answers about their health. She writes some stats on the whiteboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> 50 to 70% of all of the diagnosis, stems from the results of the blood draw, which is a huge amount of emphasis put on the results of the blood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> So even though we have quick interactions with the patient, it counts for a lot, like, it’s weighted very heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> You might remember how Tracy began the very first demonstration: by introducing herself and asking permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> It really begins and ends with tell me your name, tell me you did a birth, let’s take a look at your arm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though it is quick and they might see 50 different people that day. Each patient needs to be treated like the most important person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> Every patient in front you has the need to have your exceptional and undivided attention on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means professionalism. Students should wear their badges, pronounce names correctly and use the right gender pronouns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> The engagement that you have with the patient can really be the difference with them feeling like, hey, I felt seen this time, I heard this time. I felt like I was acknowledged as a person, as an individual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tracy Lowe:\u003c/strong> You guys get to be the changing face of health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I return towards the end of their two week program, students are more comfortable.They’ve been drawing each others blood for about 10 days. Some have small bruises called hematomas from early mistakes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’m amazed by how close they’ve become to each other. They’re teenagers, so their friend groups are still intact, but this class has brought them physically close in a different way: They know each other’s veins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Alyssa’s arm is pretty good. Some hands are better, like Kai’s hands, I was able to get hers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia is a 17 year old senior. She was actually able to have a successful draw on her first day, which is pretty rare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> We came in from lunch, she’s talking, she was like, okay, who’s ready to do blood draw? So I’m like, ooh. I did draw the first. I was the only student to draw on the day with Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> By now, she’s confident.So when I ask her if she’s comfortable drawing my blood. She gives me a little shrug and says okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Okay, you want to sit down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She treats me like a real patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia\u003c/strong>: Hi, my name’s Olivia. I’ll be your phlebotomist today. Could I get blood?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> Yes, you may. Thank you. Thanks for asking. Of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Um, can I get your name and date of birth?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I gave it. I’m a Saittarius\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> Do you, are you prone to fainting when getting blood drawn?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Me:\u003c/strong> No, fortunately not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As she preps her station. she makes some small talk with me about my work—just like at my doctor’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I’m just going to check your veins right now. I’m going to put the tourniquet on and then I’ll do some palpating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s feeling for a bounce like they’re been taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> So you have a vein right here going upward. It’s decently long. So I’ll do this arm. I want you to put your, put your fist, and you’re going to put it underneath. So you can keep your arm nice and straight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A small pinch tells me she’s put the needle in but I’m looking away trying to be as still as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> You okay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And …nothing happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia:\u003c/strong> I think it rolled, oddly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A rolled vein just means it moved—something that happens more often than you’d think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She calls over Angie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>Angie?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I think she rolled. I don’t know if you can feel it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angie Johnson:\u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>This is great. This is this is great for you because then you say, you know, I can’t get it. I’m sorry you’re vein rolled…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m sorry, your vein rolled over. Can I see your other arm?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Take two. I roll up my other sleeve and position my arm on the table. When Oliva identifies the vein in this arms she lets me know that it looks a little smaller, but she’s going to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>There we go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Wow. Olivia! Okayyy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I watch my blood start to fill the tube—dark red, faster than I expect. After she tapes a cotton ball to my arm, she hands me my sealed tube of blood\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>And then your blood is really warm. It’s really warm as soon as it comes out your body it’s really warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>It’s so creepy.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After taking this two week course students can decide to take a certification exam.Those who pass the exam and want to continue can return here for an externship. Which means they’ll come back to this facility to practice blood draws until they fulfill their requirement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Olivia plans to continue\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>I’m quite enjoying the class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For her, phlebotomy is part of her bigger career goals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I decided to do this program because I know for sure I want be a nurse, so trying to work towards that. And I think this will help me get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This phlebotomy class has given students like Olivia confidence, skills, and momentum before they ever set foot in a college lecture hall. For other students, the takeaway is different. Some realize that blood, needles, and clinical settings aren’t for them. All of that is valuable information. changing your mind can be part of the point—students still leave with transferable skills and a clearer sense of what kinds of work fit them best.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exposure lends itself to clarity. By the time they graduate high school, they won’t just be guessing about what fields they’re interested in pursuing. They’ll have evidence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Los Angeles parent Lila Byock’s son started middle school, his grades suddenly collapsed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It didn’t make sense. “He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school,” Byock said. She and her husband were confused and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers assured the family that their son understood the material and the problem wasn’t academics. “They said, ‘He just can’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63519/distracted-students-understanding-these-3-myths-of-attention-span-can-help\">stay on task\u003c/a> on his iPad,’” she continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That answer surprised Byock. Like many parents, she assumed that after pandemic remote learning ended, classrooms had largely returned to face-to-face instruction. Instead, she learned her son was spending much of his school day on a district-issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Byock asked school administrators how devices were being used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66432/little-kids-outsmart-content-blockers-what-can-be-done-about-devices-in-school\">what safeguards existed\u003c/a>, the school’s answers didn’t satisfy her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The promise of education technology\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, classrooms don’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A lot of schools use ed tech tools \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a rigid policy. It was more of a reset.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Some schools are pulling back on tech use",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Families and educators are starting to reconsider school-issued computers and tablets.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Los Angeles parent Lila Byock’s son started middle school, his grades suddenly collapsed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It didn’t make sense. “He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school,” Byock said. She and her husband were confused and concerned.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers assured the family that their son understood the material and the problem wasn’t academics. “They said, ‘He just can’t \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63519/distracted-students-understanding-these-3-myths-of-attention-span-can-help\">stay on task\u003c/a> on his iPad,’” she continued.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That answer surprised Byock. Like many parents, she assumed that after pandemic remote learning ended, classrooms had largely returned to face-to-face instruction. Instead, she learned her son was spending much of his school day on a district-issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“He was scrolling YouTube Shorts during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles with classmates during class,” Byock said. Other students watched streaming shows during lunch on school-issued iPads, and one student even showed pornography on a school device, according to Byock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After talking with her son, Byock realized he wasn’t trying to break rules, but rather, he felt trapped by distractions he couldn’t seem to resist. “It was eroding his self-esteem,” she said. “He told us, ‘I want to stop, and I don’t think I can.'”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Byock asked school administrators how devices were being used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66432/little-kids-outsmart-content-blockers-what-can-be-done-about-devices-in-school\">what safeguards existed\u003c/a>, the school’s answers didn’t satisfy her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Byock’s experience reflects a larger shift in American classrooms. Over the last 15 years, schools invested billions of dollars in laptops, tablets and educational software, often under the promise that technology would personalize learning and prepare students for a digital future. Today, some educators and parents are beginning to ask whether those tools changed classrooms in ways they never intended. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>The promise of education technology\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, education technology — also called ed tech — has been marketed as a way to make learning more customized, efficient and equitable. Writer and ed tech historian \u003ca href=\"https://audreywatters.com/\">Audrey Watters\u003c/a> said those promises stretch back long before laptops or artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early 1900s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/professional-excellence/student-engagement/tools-tips/history-standardized-testing-united-states\">educators embraced standardized testing and intelligence testing\u003c/a> as a way to make learning more measurable and objective. That same logic eventually shaped educational software, including the creation of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/far-reaching-legacy-first-teaching-machines\">“teaching machines”\u003c/a> designed to automatically grade multiple choice questions and aspirationally automate teaching. Personal computers entered classrooms in the 1980s, internet-connected learning expanded in the 1990s and 2000s, and after 2010 districts rapidly adopted one-to-one laptop programs. The COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 and the rapid push to remote learning made the full transition to digital learning nearly complete by providing students and schools with internet connectivity, devices and curriculum. Schools have long since reopened, but the reliance on ed tech continues.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“We see this long history of this desire to automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can engineer things so that they’re optimized,” Watters said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, classrooms don’t work that way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Humans are messier,” she added. Students don’t all develop, think or learn in identical ways. “This desire to standardize and optimize things as a science has great appeal but I’m not sure it’s actually practical or realistic.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Watters is particularly skeptical of one of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62365/one-size-fits-all-math-homework-may-be-more-helpful-than-you-think\">ed tech’s central promises: personalization\u003c/a>. Educational software often claims to tailor instruction to each student’s needs. But Watters says that promise begins with an assumption that teachers themselves lack sufficient insight into their students.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Teachers have long incorporated videos, computers and other digital tools into lessons. The difference today is that many instructional decisions are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60110/personalized-learning-is-more-than-an-edtech-marketing-term-it-requires-good-teachers\">increasingly shaped by software platforms\u003c/a> designed outside the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There’s some margin for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies,” Watters said. “They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with their tools.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That concern resonates with Molly Esquivel, a fifth-grade teacher in Fullerton, California. She recalled being instructed to administer the reading program i-Ready to her students, despite believing it wasn’t the right instructional choice. When she objected, “the principal came back at me and said, ‘You have to do this,’” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For Esquivel, the issue extends beyond one software program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person,” she said. “ And that, to me, is not sound practice.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said it is obvious when students are on physical materials as opposed to individually on devices. “I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living, breathing organism,” she said. Students interact with one another; they move and solve problems together. When every student is on a device, “they are now interacting with an inanimate object.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Some schools are pulling back on tech use\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At McPherson Middle School in Kansas, Principal Inge Esping said teachers began raising concerns that district-issued Chromebooks were becoming distractions rather than instructional tools. Teachers found themselves spending more time monitoring screens than interacting with students. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They, too, felt really tied to their own devices,” Esping said of educators. “They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused [and] problem solve.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66374/screens-are-leaving-schools-fast-though-some-students-with-disabilities-rely-on-them\">Rather than eliminating technology\u003c/a>, school leaders and teachers at Esping decided to change how students access it. Instead of taking Chromebooks everywhere, devices remain on classroom carts and are used when teachers believe they add instructional value. The shift wasn’t framed as a ban, Esping said, but as an opportunity to reevaluate their relationship to technology. “Over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals [related to technology] or not,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Since Lila Byock first began raising concerns with Schools Beyond Screens – the advocacy group she founded because of her son’s experience in school – the \u003ca href=\"https://edsource.org/2026/lausd-screen-time-limits/759492\">Los Angeles Unified School District has adopted grade-level limits on student screen time\u003c/a>. The new policy prohibits screen use altogether in kindergarten and first grade, and allows families to opt out of taking district devices home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1429\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-66518\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2000x1429.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-160x114.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-768x549.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-1536x1097.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/08/SBS-group-photo-2048x1463.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Schools Beyond Screens-affiliated families and educators gather at the LAUSD Board Headquarters to show support for a new screen time policy.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She sees the policy as progress, even if she believes more work remains. “One of the things we’ve been pushing for is a moratorium on AI use in the classroom on student devices until the district develops a comprehensive AI policy,” Byock noted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her family’s story began with one struggling student, but the conversation it helped spark has \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66306/schools-and-states-are-now-setting-limits-on-screen-time-for-students\">grown into something much larger\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the summer, Byock went to drop off her son’s enrollment papers and one of the school’s administrators mentioned that this year parents can expect a renewed focus on hands-on learning and more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64992/taking-exams-in-blue-books-its-back-to-help-curb-ai-use-and-rampant-cheating\">pencil-and-paper activities\u003c/a>. In order to accommodate analog learning, the school had ordered “tons of extra paper.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2555651076\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> During the 2024-25 school year, Lila Byock’s son had just started middle school. And then something shifted. He began bringing home the worst grades he had ever received. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>He’d always been a bright, curious, engaged kid who did really well in school And my husband and I were confused and concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The thing is – it wasn’t that Lila’s son didn’t understand the material. His teachers actually told her he’s above grade level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> They said, “He just can’t stay on task on his iPad.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They were talking about his school-issued iPad — \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>one that every student in the Los Angeles Unified School District receives under a one-to-one device model. In class, students were required to use an online program called i-Ready to complete assignments. But there was nothing stopping them from opening another tab — and doing, well… basically anything else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> We said, well, how much time is he spending on his iPad? And they said, Well, we use it sort of for everything all day. And that was… a complete revelation for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As Lila started asking more questions, she learned what her son — and many of his classmates — were actually doing during the school day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> Our child was. Scrolling YouTube shorts all during math class. He was playing Fortnite battles along with many of his other classmates during class. A student at lunchtime was watching Squid Game on his school issued iPad. Um, and, you know, my son watched that with him. Um, somebody showed him porn on a school issued device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After talking it through with her son, Lila realized he was just as frustrated as she was. He’d always been engaged in school, and now he felt trapped in habits he couldn’t seem to stop. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> It was like it was eroding his self-esteem. And he told us, you know, I want to stop and I don’t think I can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Worse yet, There were no clear policies. No safeguards. When Lila realized how much the IPads were being used, she sent a list of questions to the school’s administrators \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And the answers I got back were just completely unsatisfying. It was as if no one had ever thought about these things before and [00:06:20][32.1]Lila Byock: [00:07:00] that raised every red flag for me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lila is far from alone. Versions of her story are coming from parents all over the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In 2024, many public schools responded to concerns about distraction by banning student cell phones. But in many cases, the screen time didn’t disappear, it just shifted to school-issued devices. So today on MindShift, we’re asking 3 big questions : What role should education technology actually play in the classroom? When does it help — and when does it get in the way? And is it time to rethink the one-to-one device model altogether? All of that and more, after the break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To understand how schools got to a place where students spend so much of the day on screens, it helps to zoom out.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audrey Watters is a writer and historian who studies education technology. She says the debates we’re having about ed tech today stretch back to way before students were using laptops..\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We see this sort of long history of this desire to sort of automate education, automate teaching, automate testing, that’s very much bound up in really this very old story of this idea that if we can just, if we can just measure everything, then perhaps we can sort of engineer things so that they’re optimized.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says some of the earliest ed tech promises didn’t start with computers at all — they started with standardized testing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> The idea of creating a multiple choice test was so that you could get rid of any sort of subjectivity and make this field more objective. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>You want to be able to develop a machine that can administer, grade, and teach more efficiently, more objectively, than teachers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Efficiency. Objectivity. Optimization. Those ideas have shaped education technology ever since. According to the National Education Policy Center 13 million students across the US use iReady in their classrooms. In it, students work on lessons that adjust based on their answers, so if they miss a lot of answers on a certain subject, they get more questions that help them practice that area. There are other similar programs in use like Khan Academy, Ascend Math and ReadTheory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>As recent as 2024, schools spent 30 billion on education tech. It is projected to increase.The promise to schools is that these products will measure growth, identify areas of need, and fill in learning gaps if you use their adaptive learning models\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Audrey says that every wave of ed tech promises to improve learning, but underneath those promises is a deep discomfort with how human and unpredictable classrooms actually are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>But Audrey says that way of thinking however, runs into a problem. Learning doesn’t behave like a machine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> We want to think of education as a science. I think we want to think about learning as a science. And I don’t say this as though it’s not, but that doesn’t seem to ever quite entirely capture what happens both individually, what makes us love certain subjects for example, be curious and interested in certain ideas and then be utterly indifferent to others. I’m not sure that we can sort of science our way out of that. [00:03:00][31.2]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The appeal is easy to understand. If every student learns differently, wouldn’t it be helpful to have software that could adapt to each child’s needs? That’s been one of ed tech’s most powerful selling points. But Audrey says the focus on personalization begins with a troubling assumption.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters:\u003c/strong> There is this notion from outside of the classroom that somehow teachers don’t know what’s happening and that they need this sort of science and they need this technology in order to actually understand students and then be able to personalize or individualize what they’re doing to meet those students’ needs. [00:09:45][18.9]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To make one thing clear, teachers have used technology creatively for decades — They might show short videos to illustrate a concept or even take students on a virtual field trip. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Oftentimes learning with tech is shaped by the companies that make the tools\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Audrey Watters: \u003c/strong>They’ve already decided what teaching and learning look like with theirs with their tools. – Of course, there’s some margins for experimentation and play, of course, but mostly you’re still sort of you’ve lost your agency and autonomy because the whole sort of vision of what things look like is really in the hands of these technology companies. [00:12:29][19.8]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Audrey’s argument is that education technology has failed because it was built to standardize learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Lila Byock, the parent we heard from earlier, was watching what happened when learning was done almost entirely through a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> For my son, um, school became the place where he could essentially have unrestricted screen time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>While she was going through this, she felt isolated. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>I started confiding in some other parents of middle schoolers and every single person I talked to said, oh, thank God it’s not just us. Everyone was dealing with the same thing and no one was talking about it because we had all just kind of accepted the idea that for some reason our kids needed these internet connected devices. On their desks all day in school. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Together, Lila and likeminded parents and teachers formed a group called Schools Beyond Screens to push for changes in how schools use technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>There’s so much parental and teacher outrage and discontent about the hours and hours and hours our kids are spending on these apps, and I believe we’re going to see a shift in some of those policies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But if schools do decide to change course, what would teachers actually want instead? Molly Esquivel, a 6th grader teacher, a fifth-grade teacher at a public school in Fullerton, California, doesn’t want to get rid of technology entirely. She thinks that teachers should get more say in how tech is used in their classrooms” When she taught at a public school in Fullerton, California…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I was asked by the principal to give the kids iReady. You have to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Molly pushed back because she didn’t think the program was a good fit for her students. But her district had purchased the iReady program and was requiring teachers to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>The principal came back at me and said, you have to do this. So there are mandates, there are requirements.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> To her, that’s the bigger issue. Decisions about teaching are increasingly being made far away from the classroom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> That skips over the very foundation of curriculum and instruction and goes right to handing over that pedagogic power to a device rather than a person. And that to me is not sound practice, sound pedagogy and completely, as I said, sidelining not only the expert, but the human. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Molly wants more opportunities for students to interact with each other and with their teacher. She says the difference feels obvious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel:\u003c/strong> I oftentimes refer to my classroom as a living breathing organism. Kids are interacting with each other or even interacting with themselves and they’re moving and evolving and growing [00:26:28][18.3]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Compare that to a classroom where every student is working on a device.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It means kids have headphones on, their heads are tilted down to look at a screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Molly Esquivel: \u003c/strong>They are now interacting with an inanimate object. That doesn’t sit right. It doesn’t sound right. It doesn’t look right. That’s not what classrooms would even be drawn as or what we would ever imagine them to be.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For teachers like Molly, the goal is to make sure technology serves learning rather than replacing the relationships that make learning possible. Amy Tyson is a child and adolescent psychologist and the founder of EverySchool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We were sold devices and told that this was innovation. That like merely having the device in the classroom equaled innovation. But what we ended up doing was just replacing traditional methods that we know work, that are tried and true, with devices that are just less effective.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At her organization, EverySchool, she has worked to synthesize research so that teachers don’t have to. A big thing she did that many folks don’t do was that she focused on research that wasn’t funded by people with a stake in these tech tools. A big finding that may surprise you is that there isn’t conclusive evidence saying that tech is making kids smarter or improves learning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> Shortly after the widespread adoption of school issue devices, which happened around the year 2012, we began to see an alarming downturn in academic outcomes also beginning in 2012. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, we can’t pin this all on edtech. There are a variety of factors that may be contributing, but at a minimum it’s safe to say it isn’t helping. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech has flourished in the classroom, our test scores, and I’d also like to say notably, the scores on loneliness, which are important for student health and well-being, continue to slip down year after year. So there’s really zero indication that it’s helping and I would say that there is mounting evidence that it is harming . [00:11:40][13.1]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A lot of schools use ed tech tools \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> EdTech and TechEd are not the same thing. But teaching how to using technology, teaching transformative technology skills is not the same thing as using technology to teach every subject. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Would argue that students are far more likely to be missing out on soft skill development, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, problem solving, interpersonal skills, empathy, creativity, even eye contact at this point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Amy also debunks that EdTech is neutral. You might hear edtech is a tool… like a pencil\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Screens do have uniquely negative effects that like a pen just doesn’t have. Screens hijack our attention, they distract us into a constant state of multitasking, they infiltrate our reward system, give us constant bursts of dopamine. It’s not the same thing as a pencil. It is not a neutral learning tool. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And that brings us back to Lila and her son. Who was definitely not using his ipad like a pencil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>Algebra’s hard. It’s not very hard to scroll YouTube. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This is Lila again. Talking about her son. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock:\u003c/strong> This year we, before the first day of school, we notified the principal that our child would not be taking home his device and we opted him out of the iReady program. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And teachers were very accommodating. One of his teachers was actually quite excited and said that she’d do a one-on-one novel study with him while other students used the iReady program on the IPad.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lila Byock: \u003c/strong>And that just speaks to the trade-offs that are being made in favor of these ed tech apps. You know, our kids could be doing rigorous novel study, reading real books. Which is so rare now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Since Lila first started asking questions, LAUSD has adopted new limits on student screen time, including restrictions on classroom device use and new options for families to opt out of bringing devices home. It’s a sign that some districts are beginning to rethink their relationship with technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Psychologist Amy Tyson and her EverySchool colleagues came up with something called the ed tech triangle , a framework designed to help schools make those decisions more intentionally. Picture a triangle with the pointy tip facing downwards\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At the smallest pointy tip is Disruptive technology\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>And that’s tech that disrupts learning and breeds habitual use. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning, like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So really it’s something that we encourage educators to use to really to avoid using if possible. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Think of activities that pull students away from learning like unrestricted access to cell phones, or other excess screen time uses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One level up in the triangle is restrictive technology.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> That’s restricting learning outcomes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson:\u003c/strong> So, use sparingly and in very specific situations if you do end up needing to use it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>These are tools that may be convenient, but don’t necessarily deepen learning. For example, reading a digital worksheet instead of a paper one, or completing an activity on a screen that could be done just as effectively without one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Third from the bottom Second from the top is supportive technology. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Supportive is the area that supports learning in helpful ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>It can be helpful to be used in moderation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This might include things like speech-to-text tools, accessibility features, or software that helps students organize their work– technology that supports learning but doesn’t fundamentally change it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And at the very top is \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>Transformative, which is a technology that produces a unique outcome or develops a high level skill. [00:08:55][6.5]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy Tyson: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about skill development. So. It’s very hard to teach robotics if you aren’t programming a robot, if you’re not using a device. That’s teaching a high level skill, it’s producing a unique outcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words, technology should be hardest to justify when it’s simply replacing something that already works. Its strongest case is when students are doing something they couldn’t do otherwise. And some school leaders are already using frameworks like this to make hard decisions, including rolling back one-to-one devices altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>My name is Inga Esping. I’m the principal of McPherson Middle School at McPhersen, Kansas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>In the spring of 2024, Inge and other leaders at McPherson Middle School were reviewing their data. For years, the school had been making steady academic gains. But now, that progress was slowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>We were starting to feel a little like we were plateauing. So our question was, how do we continue the momentum that we’re on to really improve the culture and the academic experience in our school? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>At McPherson, every student had a Chromebook they carried to and from school. Teachers began raising a possibility that echoed what parents like Lila had been saying: maybe the devices were getting in the way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They were frustrated by the distractions. They just didn’t feel that it was enhancing learning to the level that they were hoping to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers told administrators that when students were on their laptops, they ended up on laptops too. They spent less time circulating, less time connecting, more time monitoring screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> They want to be busy around their classroom and helping students remain focused, problem solve, really to get involved. But they too felt really tied to their own devices. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers found themselves policing tabs and websites. And over time, those constant corrections began to strain relationships with students. Some students felt a sense of ownership over their chromebook like “you can’t tell me what to do. This is mine.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> And how that would sometimes cause a challenge of not knowing exactly what was and wasn’t homework concerned about the amount of hours their students were online and saying that they’re working on school work when in fact that wasn’t always the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The two words that changed everything were what if. As in, What if they didn’t do school this way anymore?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What if we helped our students understand this is a tool that can be very powerful to use. But at this point, the way we’ve approached it right now, it feels like more of a distraction. And we have such important work that we’re trying to do here in school, we want you to refocus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> School leaders began digging into the research –much of the same research Amy Tyson pointed to— showing that one-to-one devices often fail to deliver on their promises.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Instead of having students carrying Chromebooks all day, McPherson invested in classroom carts to keep devices in the room and had teachers use them only when teachers believed they genuinely add value.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>As we came back this school year, we started really training our teachers. This is coming. We’re not sure when. We are unsure exactly the timeline. Actually over the last two days, students have returned to their Chromebooks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This wasn’t a ban. And it wasn’t a rigid policy. It was more of a reset.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So students will actually come back and have zero Chromebook time for their first few weeks in our spring semester. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> McPherson is in a fortunate position. Teachers still have access to physical books, worksheets, and materials. These are resources some schools no longer have because they may have completely replaced them with digital books or ed tech programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>All we’ve done is give guidance. Please use them as sparingly as possible. Think about when they really enhance the lesson, enhance the learning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping: \u003c/strong>So, over this next year, we’ll really assess how often are we on screens to consider if we need to have additional goals or not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Inge is clear-eyed about the limits of this approach. Keeping Chromebooks at school won’t magically solve every problem. But she hopes it’s a start. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> What I’m most proud of the work here is that I have a staff who is really brave to try something different. They’re allowing us to make this change knowing that we’re going to face unknowns, we’re going to face challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Her hope isn’t that other schools copy McPherson exactly, but that they feel empowered to ask their own “what if” questions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Inge Esping:\u003c/strong> I would just encourage. Schools who are also interested in joining us in this initiative to be brave, acknowledge that there’s going to be challenges, communicate with your stakeholders when those challenges arise and seek your community members, your students, your parents, seek their input so that you can really build the program and the school that you hope to see. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "The Lasting Legacy of Rita Pierson’s ‘Every Kid Needs a Champion’",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, Rita Pierson, a middle school teacher from Texas, walked onto a stage, wearing a bright red jacket, to deliver an unscripted speech to TED Conference attendees. The video of that speech would become one of the most viewed TED Talks at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In just under eight minutes, she made a simple, unforgettable argument: kids don’t learn from people they don’t like. The talk, titled \u003ca href=\"https://www.ted.com/talks/rita_pierson_every_kid_needs_a_champion\">Every Kid Needs a Champion\u003c/a>, is often the first time people hear someone describe teaching not just as instruction, but as a relationship. The video has become a staple of teacher professional development sessions across the country in staff meetings and college classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a decade later, the message lands in a very different educational climate. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-new-survey-says-about-teachers-plans-leave-their-jobs\">Teachers report high levels of stress\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/overview-teacher-shortages-2025-factsheet\">staffing shortages are common\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://cps.northeastern.edu/news/teacher-burnout-crisis-addressing-compassion-fatigue-and-the-impact-of-praxis-shock/\">burnout remains a major concern\u003c/a>. Exploring her presentation today raises important questions: What does it actually take to be the kind of teacher Pierson described? And is it sustainable?\u003cbr />\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The teacher behind the TED Talk\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before her talk went viral, Rita Pierson was already well known among educators in Texas. She came from a family of teachers and spent decades working in classrooms and advocating for students who often felt overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest, remembers that relationships were at the center of everything her mother did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She helped remind teachers that it’s okay to say ‘I love you.’ It’s okay to let the kids know that they are loved,” Forrest said. “There’s so many kids out there who don’t know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That idea shows up clearly in the talk. Teachers, she said, have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60094/strategies-for-building-deeper-relationships-with-students-through-academic-content\">power to build relationships\u003c/a>, even with students who struggle in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But her daughter said Pierson also understood the emotional demands of that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She reminded me quickly [during] my first year teaching that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted,” Forrest said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Every kid needs a champion | Rita Pierson | TED\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/SFnMTHhKdkw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen>\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A message passed from teacher to teacher\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For many educators, Pierson’s talk appears during professional development at the start of the school year. That’s how Melissa K. Stanley encountered it when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really resonated with me,” Stanley said. “I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today she trains future teachers of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University, where Pierson’s message is still part of the curriculum. Before her students begin their pre-service teaching placements, Stanley asks them to watch the talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The video helps her introduce students to what educators call \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60112/learning-from-students-families-as-a-step-toward-equity-in-literacy-instruction\">asset-based pedagogy\u003c/a>, an approach that focuses on students’ strengths and experiences rather than what students lack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/new-focus-strength-based-learning\">Studies\u003c/a> have found that students often show stronger engagement, greater belonging and better academic outcomes when teachers build on students’ strengths and experiences rather than focusing primarily on deficits. Instead of asking what students lack, teachers focus on what they bring to the table.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for some future educators, Stanley said, this approach is new and they don’t know where to start. This video helps her pre-service teachers start talking about what it means to build relationships with students so they can start to apply asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re about to step into classrooms for the first time and they’re nervous,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When caring becomes exhausting by design\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The kind of relational teaching Pierson described requires emotional labor. For teachers already juggling large class sizes, administrative demands and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">behavioral challenges\u003c/a>, that energy can run out quickly. Teacher burnout has been a major concern in recent years and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/09/27/a-dwindling-number-of-new-u-s-college-graduates-have-a-degree-in-education/\">fewer people are entering the profession\u003c/a>. Surveys consistently show high levels of stress among educators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">many teachers leave the profession within their first five years\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers like professor \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpc.unc.edu/people/fellows/ganga-bey/\">Ganga Bey at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill\u003c/a> are looking more closely at the emotional dynamics of teaching and how educators can sustain themselves while still showing up for students. Bey studies how people respond to stress and why similar experiences can affect individuals differently. “Not everyone who is exposed to stress will deal with it in the same way,” Bey said. “Dealing with it has a lot of implications for how that stress will impact people’s health.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching provides plenty of opportunities for stressful encounters. Examples may include a heated argument with a student or a classroom moment that spirals unexpectedly. According to Bey, the way teachers interpret those moments can influence how stressful they become physically and emotionally. For instance, if a teacher interprets a student’s outburst as a personal attack, the body may register the encounter as a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the teacher understands the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66347/ross-greene-what-if-bad-behavior-isnt-the-problem\">behavior as a sign the student is struggling\u003c/a>, the response can shift. “You wouldn’t be treating someone badly like that if you yourself weren’t suffering in some way,” Bey added. That reframing doesn’t mean ignoring harmful behavior. Instead, Bey said it can reduce the intensity of the stress response and make it easier to stay grounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bey describes this mindset as part of what she calls a \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">vitalizing identity\u003c/a>, which is a way of understanding yourself and others that emphasizes connection, compassion and shared humanity. At its core, she said, it’s about expanding the boundaries of who we include in our circle of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burnout often occurs, Bey said, when educators consistently place students’ needs above their own without receiving the support they need. “One would hope that because teachers give up so much of themselves that others would pour so much into them to sustain the work that they do. And that does not happen,” she said. Instead, many teachers are left trying to set boundaries that school systems often do not support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Love, to me, is the idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else,” Bey said, and teachers have to include themselves in their own circles of care. In other words, caring for students cannot come at the expense of caring for yourself, which is the lesson Pierson emphasized with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson’s continued legacy \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Stanley’s college students, Pierson’s talk often becomes a reference point throughout their training. They return to it when they’re thinking about classroom management, lesson design or how to respond to difficult moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard—when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/jc95sq/if_i_have_to_sit_through_that_rita_pierson_ted/\">fatigue that comes with repeated views\u003c/a> of the TED Talk during professional development, Pierson’s message continues to resonate with educators. Stanley believes that’s because the talk gives them a license to teach the way they want to. That doesn’t mean the work becomes easy; building relationships with students takes time, patience and emotional effort. But Pierson’s legacy reminds educators that those relationships are not separate from learning. They are what make learning possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many teachers, that idea still feels worth holding onto.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s summertime. School hasn’t started yet. The hallways are still quiet, and the kids are still sleeping in, but teachers? They’re back in school early to attend mandatory professional development sessions. Also known as PD. These might include discussing new protocols, hashing out curriculum and getting inspired for the new school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If I asked teachers ‘What’s the one piece of PD you just know is coming?’ A lot of them would say the same thing: “Every kid needs a champion.” A TED Talk given by a teacher named Rita Pierson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson:\u003c/strong> Every child deserves a champion, an adult who will never give up on them, who understands the power of connection and insists that they become the best they can possibly be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In our last episode, we talked about how teaching is harder than ever – and how schools tend to focus on supporting kids while overlooking the adults who make learning possible: teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this episode, we take a look at Rita Pierson’s viral talk and what it tells us about how relationships shape learning. We’ll meet the people who knew Rita best, the educators who carry her philosophy forward, and the researcher studying what happens to our bodies and minds when we lead with love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Every time somebody finds out I teach middle school, they’re like, ‘Oh bless you.’ Like that’s the that’s the first reaction. And I’m like, Yeah, I know, because everybody remembers middle school is such a hard transition\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Beth Jarzabek teaches English in Ludlow, Massachusetts. She works with the kids who struggle the most with reading and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I have all three grades. So I teach sixth, seventh, and eighth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Since her students need more support, there’s a stigma about being placed in her class\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Like, ‘Oh, you have to go to Mrs. J’s class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These are kids who often mask academic frustration with misbehavior. They might act out. They shut down. But Beth sees through it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek\u003c/strong>: Their other teachers may not see them the same way I do. So I try to make those connections and and try to be their champion\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea of being a students’ champion comes straight from Rita Pierson. Like many teachers Beth first watched her TED Talk video during professional development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> There were people like, you know, who were kind of rolling their eyes and whatnot. But it resonated with maybe when she talked about the kids that she had that, you know were the kids that were struggling, that the and the fact that she said to them, they put us all together to show everybody else how it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s the clip from Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: One year I came up with a bright idea. I told all my students, you were chosen to be in my class. Because I am the best teacher and you are the best students. They put us all together so we could show everybody else how to do it.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> And I was like, oh, I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So Beth decided to bring that same energy into her own classroom, especially for kids who rarely get encouraged by adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I started, you know, just trying to be that hype person, you know, when I go when I would go into my neighbor’s classroom, I would be like, Oh, which kids can I steal from you? You know, I’m like, oh, or if a kid got transferred in, I was like, I found out how cool you were, and I told them that I want, wanted you in my classroom. And it gave the kids like a little boost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Or I’ll say to them, you know, like, hey, I’m telling all these people how awesome you are. I’m like, you gotta show them how awesome you are. And they’re like, okay, well, for you, I’ll do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> she’s tapping into something we know from decades of research. A positive relationship with even one caring adult is one of the strongest predictors of: better attendance, stronger academic performance, and improved social-emotional skills\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Several studies find that students with strong teacher relationships can gain the equivalent of up to an extra year of learning — especially those who struggle the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And here’s something else: supportive teacher–student relationships protect teachers too. Studies show that educators who feel connected to their students report significantly lower burnout and higher job satisfaction, even in high-stress environments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I don’t have to be your favorite, but I’m still gonna go to bat with you. You are still going to know that you’re safe with me. You are still going to know that you have a valued place in my classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She reminds herself of that, even on the hardest days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I try to remember when everything is falling apart I’m here for them to be that person in this tumultuous time in their life is really such an honor. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than others. And there’s definitely days that I I go home and I like I’m under a weighted blanket. But I try to bring myself back to that, you know, what an honor it is to be the safe place for these kids because some of them don’t have it otherwise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Up next, we’ll explore why Rita Pierson’s message still resonates — who she was, how teachers are putting her ideas into practice, and what it takes to care for students without burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita Pierson’s TED Talk reached millions of teachers, but behind the scenes, the story of how it even happened is almost as special as the talk itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I joined Ted working two days a week to try and help them figure out whether or not they could make TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I said, Of course you can do TV, it’s SNL for nerds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet Blake , was the head of television for TED in 2013. She was producing a TV special on education — it included John Legend, Bill Gates, Sir Ken Robinson… big names. But she couldn’t shake off the feeling that something was missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> Through YouTube and I came across Rita. And the video that was that existed online wasn’t great, but I could see she had this enormous personality and that she was so authentic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After seeing clips of Rita giving teaching tips, she spent months trying to track her down\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I was getting a bit desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita wasn’t a celebrity educator at the time. She was a longtime teacher and administrator in Houston who came from a family of educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And eventually I was calling different school districts in Houston. And I left a message for her at a school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then one evening Juliet’s phone rang.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I got a call one evening, and she just went, ‘Hello,’ and I went, ‘Rita, Rita Pearson?’ And she went, ‘Sure am.’ And I went, ‘I have been looking you for you for months.’ She said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m producing a show for Ted.’ And she said these magical words that made me fall in love with her immediately. ‘Who’s Ted?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> From there, they talked on the phone almost every night—once Rita got home from teaching. They were trying to figure out what she might talk about for her presentation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> She would talk to me about her mother and her father being educators and the schools that she’d worked in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita could move seamlessly between heartbreaking stories about students and cracking jokes about the realities of teaching. And slowly, through those late-night phone calls, the TED Talk started to take shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And then she said, I need to write this, don’t I? I said, Yes, this is how it works. You not only have to write it, you have to learn it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But when Rita arrived in New York for rehearsal…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, ‘Honey, I didn’t learn it.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet was panicking… Rita was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, You sit here and I’ll be on the stage and give me, tell me when I’ve got to wrap up, do this, and I’ll bring it to a close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I just thought, you know what? I just trust this woman to be brilliant. I just know that she’s going to do it and it’s gonna be great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That talk given live and mostly off the cuff and it is the one millions of teachers know today. Rita, on stage, speaking straight from the heart about how relationships are important for learning\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: But one of the things that we never discuss or we rarely discuss is the value and importance of human connection…relationships]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet remembers her as one of the most authentic speakers she’s ever worked with. And Rita’s daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest says this all makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> My mother’s never written down a speech in her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> there might be maybe some bullet points, but she always knew exactly what she wanted to say and how she wanted to get it across.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Kristin says her mom’s taught elementary and junior high students for over 40 years. Her entire philosophy came down to one lesson:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It’s okay to say I love you. It’s okay to let the kids know that that that they are loved, because there’s so many kids out there who don’t know that, who don’t inherently know that they are love. And so to explicitly tell kids, I care about you, you know, I’m here for you. I love you, and I’m gonna work my butt off for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin spent 15 years teaching in Houston herself, and she says her mother’s approach shaped her own practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> her work was centered around relationships. It was centered around relationship building and that was the central part of who I got to be as a teacher because I got that from her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But she’s also quick to point out that her mom wasn’t naïve about the realities of teaching. Rita loved her students fiercely, but she knew that caring deeply for students wasn’t enough to protect her from burnout or from a system that often asks too much with too little support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And she reminded me quickly, my first year teaching, that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: When Kristin had an especially hard day in the classroom. Rita would say, “You get 5 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It just means that you know, your sadness, there’s an end point to it. So whatever that five minutes is, it might be a day, it might be a week, it might be a month. But just know that at some point there’s going to be an end to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin says those lessons from her mom took on a very different meaning not long after the TED Talk was filmed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> After you know, they shot that TED talk, she she passed about three months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kirstin isn’t in the classroom anymore, but she still works with educators. she brings her mom’s presence with her everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> I think about my mom every day, and it’s been close to 13 years since she was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And even the day she passed, I had to remind myself, okay, you get five minutes. I don’t know if my five minutes is over yet. I really I really don’t know. But I I haven’t stayed in a sad place clearly, but but it’s definitely reminded me to pick myself up, dust myself off, and and what’s the next thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> More than a decade later, Rita Pierson’s talk is still finding new audiences – not just among teachers, but among the people learning to become teachers. And that’s where Melissa Stanley comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I am Dr. Melissa K. Stanley and I am the director of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I teach social studies methods courses to help prepare them to be social studies teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She first saw Rita’s talk back when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> And it really resonated with me and resonated with the way that I taught. I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And once Melissa became a teacher-educator at Central Michigan University. The talk became part of how she teaches. It’s a required video during the semester that her class does their pre-student teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> They’re pretty nervous. And that is the semester that they do their pre-student teaching. It’s is the first real experience that they’ll get with students in going into classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa uses the video to introduce students to asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It’s looking at the whole student and it’s valuing what they bring and building relationships with them when the history of education has traditionally been kind of a deficit approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means seeing students through their problems rather than their potential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Studies show that when teachers take an asset-based approach, valuing students’ cultural strengths, community knowledge, and lived identities, students show stronger academic engagement, better attendance, and improved well-being. And teachers themselves experience more purpose and lower burnout because relationships feel reciprocal rather than adversarial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> That really helps us have conversations and then use it as a gateway into conversations with students about how we adopt an asset bit based pedagogy and how we value the whole student and we value the strengths they bring to the classroom, the diversity they bring to the classroom, and how we work with that to build relationships and then also help them grow and meet their goals and their dreams for their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> for some preservice teachers, this is a brand-new idea. Their own schooling may not have included teachers who championed them. So imagining themselves as that kind of teacher can be hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It generally generates a lot of questions about okay, how do we do this? This is great. I would love to get there. That’s kind of an end goal for me. But what are the steps along the way? What does that look like in practical application?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They also discuss Rita’s line about joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk:\u003c/strong>Teaching and learning should bring joy.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> But if you’re engaging in this type of teaching and this type of work with students, not every moment is going to be joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk: \u003c/strong>So teachers become great actors and great actresses. And we come to work when we don’t feel like it. And we listen to policy that doesn’t make sense. And we teach anyway. We teach anyway because that’s what we do. ]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> So we have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard, when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa is naming something important. Teachers want to show up for kids the way Rita did, but the reality is that teaching is stressful. And not just the piles of grading or the endless meetings—interpersonal stress can hit teachers particularly hard. It affects their bodies and can leave them feeling emotionally exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ganga Bey is a researcher at the University of North Carolina. She studies how stress affects the body and why stress hits some people harder than others. And one thing she’s interested in is how the way we think about other people changes how stress affects us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Love to me is this idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In simpler terms: seeing other people’s well-being as connected to your own. That can matter a lot in the classroom. Because when a student lashes out, a teacher can interpret that in different ways. They can think: This kid doesn’t respect me. Or: This kid is struggling right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And Ganga says that shift matters physically—not just emotionally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> So because of that, I’m literally gonna process that in a less stressful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now to be clear—this is not the same thing as toxic positivity. This isn’t: ‘Just smile through abuse.’ And it’s not: ‘Teachers should sacrifice themselves for kids.’ In fact, Ganga says one of the biggest problems in education is that teachers are already being asked to give too much of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Teachers are a particular group of people. Who encounter a tremendous amount of stressors and some of them are avoidable stressors right and part of the way that we organize our society teachers are undervalued um overworked and and live in a largely thankless space\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers are reporting record-high stress levels, elevated rates of depression, and many are leaving the profession within the first five years. Ganga says burnout often happens when teachers keep putting everyone else’s needs ahead of their own for too long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I think burnout happens when you have pushed out, pushed through as much as possibly can because you have centered the needs of these children that you have been serving above even your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So her argument isn’t “love harder.” It’s that teachers have to include themselves in that care too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> It means that when my body is signaling to me that I am tired…we give equal weight to our needs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>That balance—staying open to students without completely draining yourself—is hard. But Ganga says people like Rita Pierson matter because that care seem possible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I love to hear about Rita because I know that there are other people out there like that who embody this. And the more that we make them into real human beings and make them accessible, the more than I think we can convince others that it’s worth endeavoring to even be like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Regardless of what the world right now may make us think, that it is worth it for us to pursue a world and a society and hold on to the idea that being loving can be the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley and the Templeton Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, Rita Pierson, a middle school teacher from Texas, walked onto a stage, wearing a bright red jacket, to deliver an unscripted speech to TED Conference attendees. The video of that speech would become one of the most viewed TED Talks at that time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In just under eight minutes, she made a simple, unforgettable argument: kids don’t learn from people they don’t like. The talk, titled \u003ca href=\"https://www.ted.com/talks/rita_pierson_every_kid_needs_a_champion\">Every Kid Needs a Champion\u003c/a>, is often the first time people hear someone describe teaching not just as instruction, but as a relationship. The video has become a staple of teacher professional development sessions across the country in staff meetings and college classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than a decade later, the message lands in a very different educational climate. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/what-new-survey-says-about-teachers-plans-leave-their-jobs\">Teachers report high levels of stress\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://learningpolicyinstitute.org/product/overview-teacher-shortages-2025-factsheet\">staffing shortages are common\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://cps.northeastern.edu/news/teacher-burnout-crisis-addressing-compassion-fatigue-and-the-impact-of-praxis-shock/\">burnout remains a major concern\u003c/a>. Exploring her presentation today raises important questions: What does it actually take to be the kind of teacher Pierson described? And is it sustainable?\u003cbr />\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The teacher behind the TED Talk\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before her talk went viral, Rita Pierson was already well known among educators in Texas. She came from a family of teachers and spent decades working in classrooms and advocating for students who often felt overlooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest, remembers that relationships were at the center of everything her mother did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She helped remind teachers that it’s okay to say ‘I love you.’ It’s okay to let the kids know that they are loved,” Forrest said. “There’s so many kids out there who don’t know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That idea shows up clearly in the talk. Teachers, she said, have the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60094/strategies-for-building-deeper-relationships-with-students-through-academic-content\">power to build relationships\u003c/a>, even with students who struggle in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But her daughter said Pierson also understood the emotional demands of that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She reminded me quickly [during] my first year teaching that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted,” Forrest said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Every kid needs a champion | Rita Pierson | TED\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/SFnMTHhKdkw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen>\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A message passed from teacher to teacher\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For many educators, Pierson’s talk appears during professional development at the start of the school year. That’s how Melissa K. Stanley encountered it when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really resonated with me,” Stanley said. “I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today she trains future teachers of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University, where Pierson’s message is still part of the curriculum. Before her students begin their pre-service teaching placements, Stanley asks them to watch the talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The video helps her introduce students to what educators call \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/60112/learning-from-students-families-as-a-step-toward-equity-in-literacy-instruction\">asset-based pedagogy\u003c/a>, an approach that focuses on students’ strengths and experiences rather than what students lack.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/new-focus-strength-based-learning\">Studies\u003c/a> have found that students often show stronger engagement, greater belonging and better academic outcomes when teachers build on students’ strengths and experiences rather than focusing primarily on deficits. Instead of asking what students lack, teachers focus on what they bring to the table.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for some future educators, Stanley said, this approach is new and they don’t know where to start. This video helps her pre-service teachers start talking about what it means to build relationships with students so they can start to apply asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re about to step into classrooms for the first time and they’re nervous,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When caring becomes exhausting by design\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The kind of relational teaching Pierson described requires emotional labor. For teachers already juggling large class sizes, administrative demands and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">behavioral challenges\u003c/a>, that energy can run out quickly. Teacher burnout has been a major concern in recent years and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2022/09/27/a-dwindling-number-of-new-u-s-college-graduates-have-a-degree-in-education/\">fewer people are entering the profession\u003c/a>. Surveys consistently show high levels of stress among educators and \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">many teachers leave the profession within their first five years\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Researchers like professor \u003ca href=\"https://www.cpc.unc.edu/people/fellows/ganga-bey/\">Ganga Bey at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill\u003c/a> are looking more closely at the emotional dynamics of teaching and how educators can sustain themselves while still showing up for students. Bey studies how people respond to stress and why similar experiences can affect individuals differently. “Not everyone who is exposed to stress will deal with it in the same way,” Bey said. “Dealing with it has a lot of implications for how that stress will impact people’s health.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching provides plenty of opportunities for stressful encounters. Examples may include a heated argument with a student or a classroom moment that spirals unexpectedly. According to Bey, the way teachers interpret those moments can influence how stressful they become physically and emotionally. For instance, if a teacher interprets a student’s outburst as a personal attack, the body may register the encounter as a threat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But if the teacher understands the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66347/ross-greene-what-if-bad-behavior-isnt-the-problem\">behavior as a sign the student is struggling\u003c/a>, the response can shift. “You wouldn’t be treating someone badly like that if you yourself weren’t suffering in some way,” Bey added. That reframing doesn’t mean ignoring harmful behavior. Instead, Bey said it can reduce the intensity of the stress response and make it easier to stay grounded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bey describes this mindset as part of what she calls a \u003ca href=\"https://www.americanprogress.org/article/how-to-increase-the-retention-of-early-career-teachers/\">vitalizing identity\u003c/a>, which is a way of understanding yourself and others that emphasizes connection, compassion and shared humanity. At its core, she said, it’s about expanding the boundaries of who we include in our circle of care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Burnout often occurs, Bey said, when educators consistently place students’ needs above their own without receiving the support they need. “One would hope that because teachers give up so much of themselves that others would pour so much into them to sustain the work that they do. And that does not happen,” she said. Instead, many teachers are left trying to set boundaries that school systems often do not support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Love, to me, is the idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else,” Bey said, and teachers have to include themselves in their own circles of care. In other words, caring for students cannot come at the expense of caring for yourself, which is the lesson Pierson emphasized with her daughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson’s continued legacy \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Stanley’s college students, Pierson’s talk often becomes a reference point throughout their training. They return to it when they’re thinking about classroom management, lesson design or how to respond to difficult moments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard—when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students,” said Stanley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/comments/jc95sq/if_i_have_to_sit_through_that_rita_pierson_ted/\">fatigue that comes with repeated views\u003c/a> of the TED Talk during professional development, Pierson’s message continues to resonate with educators. Stanley believes that’s because the talk gives them a license to teach the way they want to. That doesn’t mean the work becomes easy; building relationships with students takes time, patience and emotional effort. But Pierson’s legacy reminds educators that those relationships are not separate from learning. They are what make learning possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For many teachers, that idea still feels worth holding onto.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr />\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2909467136\" 0=\"width="100%"/iframe\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s summertime. School hasn’t started yet. The hallways are still quiet, and the kids are still sleeping in, but teachers? They’re back in school early to attend mandatory professional development sessions. Also known as PD. These might include discussing new protocols, hashing out curriculum and getting inspired for the new school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If I asked teachers ‘What’s the one piece of PD you just know is coming?’ A lot of them would say the same thing: “Every kid needs a champion.” A TED Talk given by a teacher named Rita Pierson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita Pierson:\u003c/strong> Every child deserves a champion, an adult who will never give up on them, who understands the power of connection and insists that they become the best they can possibly be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In our last episode, we talked about how teaching is harder than ever – and how schools tend to focus on supporting kids while overlooking the adults who make learning possible: teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In this episode, we take a look at Rita Pierson’s viral talk and what it tells us about how relationships shape learning. We’ll meet the people who knew Rita best, the educators who carry her philosophy forward, and the researcher studying what happens to our bodies and minds when we lead with love.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Every time somebody finds out I teach middle school, they’re like, ‘Oh bless you.’ Like that’s the that’s the first reaction. And I’m like, Yeah, I know, because everybody remembers middle school is such a hard transition\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Beth Jarzabek teaches English in Ludlow, Massachusetts. She works with the kids who struggle the most with reading and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I have all three grades. So I teach sixth, seventh, and eighth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Since her students need more support, there’s a stigma about being placed in her class\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Like, ‘Oh, you have to go to Mrs. J’s class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> These are kids who often mask academic frustration with misbehavior. They might act out. They shut down. But Beth sees through it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek\u003c/strong>: Their other teachers may not see them the same way I do. So I try to make those connections and and try to be their champion\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea of being a students’ champion comes straight from Rita Pierson. Like many teachers Beth first watched her TED Talk video during professional development.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> There were people like, you know, who were kind of rolling their eyes and whatnot. But it resonated with maybe when she talked about the kids that she had that, you know were the kids that were struggling, that the and the fact that she said to them, they put us all together to show everybody else how it’s done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Here’s the clip from Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: One year I came up with a bright idea. I told all my students, you were chosen to be in my class. Because I am the best teacher and you are the best students. They put us all together so we could show everybody else how to do it.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> And I was like, oh, I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So Beth decided to bring that same energy into her own classroom, especially for kids who rarely get encouraged by adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I started, you know, just trying to be that hype person, you know, when I go when I would go into my neighbor’s classroom, I would be like, Oh, which kids can I steal from you? You know, I’m like, oh, or if a kid got transferred in, I was like, I found out how cool you were, and I told them that I want, wanted you in my classroom. And it gave the kids like a little boost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> Or I’ll say to them, you know, like, hey, I’m telling all these people how awesome you are. I’m like, you gotta show them how awesome you are. And they’re like, okay, well, for you, I’ll do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> she’s tapping into something we know from decades of research. A positive relationship with even one caring adult is one of the strongest predictors of: better attendance, stronger academic performance, and improved social-emotional skills\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Several studies find that students with strong teacher relationships can gain the equivalent of up to an extra year of learning — especially those who struggle the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And here’s something else: supportive teacher–student relationships protect teachers too. Studies show that educators who feel connected to their students report significantly lower burnout and higher job satisfaction, even in high-stress environments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I don’t have to be your favorite, but I’m still gonna go to bat with you. You are still going to know that you’re safe with me. You are still going to know that you have a valued place in my classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She reminds herself of that, even on the hardest days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beth Jarzabek:\u003c/strong> I try to remember when everything is falling apart I’m here for them to be that person in this tumultuous time in their life is really such an honor. Sometimes it’s easier to remember that than others. And there’s definitely days that I I go home and I like I’m under a weighted blanket. But I try to bring myself back to that, you know, what an honor it is to be the safe place for these kids because some of them don’t have it otherwise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Up next, we’ll explore why Rita Pierson’s message still resonates — who she was, how teachers are putting her ideas into practice, and what it takes to care for students without burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita Pierson’s TED Talk reached millions of teachers, but behind the scenes, the story of how it even happened is almost as special as the talk itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I joined Ted working two days a week to try and help them figure out whether or not they could make TV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I said, Of course you can do TV, it’s SNL for nerds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet Blake , was the head of television for TED in 2013. She was producing a TV special on education — it included John Legend, Bill Gates, Sir Ken Robinson… big names. But she couldn’t shake off the feeling that something was missing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> Through YouTube and I came across Rita. And the video that was that existed online wasn’t great, but I could see she had this enormous personality and that she was so authentic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After seeing clips of Rita giving teaching tips, she spent months trying to track her down\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I was getting a bit desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita wasn’t a celebrity educator at the time. She was a longtime teacher and administrator in Houston who came from a family of educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And eventually I was calling different school districts in Houston. And I left a message for her at a school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then one evening Juliet’s phone rang.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> I got a call one evening, and she just went, ‘Hello,’ and I went, ‘Rita, Rita Pearson?’ And she went, ‘Sure am.’ And I went, ‘I have been looking you for you for months.’ She said, ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m producing a show for Ted.’ And she said these magical words that made me fall in love with her immediately. ‘Who’s Ted?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> From there, they talked on the phone almost every night—once Rita got home from teaching. They were trying to figure out what she might talk about for her presentation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> She would talk to me about her mother and her father being educators and the schools that she’d worked in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Rita could move seamlessly between heartbreaking stories about students and cracking jokes about the realities of teaching. And slowly, through those late-night phone calls, the TED Talk started to take shape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And then she said, I need to write this, don’t I? I said, Yes, this is how it works. You not only have to write it, you have to learn it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But when Rita arrived in New York for rehearsal…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, ‘Honey, I didn’t learn it.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet was panicking… Rita was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And she goes, You sit here and I’ll be on the stage and give me, tell me when I’ve got to wrap up, do this, and I’ll bring it to a close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And I just thought, you know what? I just trust this woman to be brilliant. I just know that she’s going to do it and it’s gonna be great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Juliet Blake:\u003c/strong> And it was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That talk given live and mostly off the cuff and it is the one millions of teachers know today. Rita, on stage, speaking straight from the heart about how relationships are important for learning\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: But one of the things that we never discuss or we rarely discuss is the value and importance of human connection…relationships]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Juliet remembers her as one of the most authentic speakers she’s ever worked with. And Rita’s daughter, Kristin Pierson Forrest says this all makes sense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> My mother’s never written down a speech in her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> there might be maybe some bullet points, but she always knew exactly what she wanted to say and how she wanted to get it across.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Kristin says her mom’s taught elementary and junior high students for over 40 years. Her entire philosophy came down to one lesson:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It’s okay to say I love you. It’s okay to let the kids know that that that they are loved, because there’s so many kids out there who don’t know that, who don’t inherently know that they are love. And so to explicitly tell kids, I care about you, you know, I’m here for you. I love you, and I’m gonna work my butt off for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin spent 15 years teaching in Houston herself, and she says her mother’s approach shaped her own practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> her work was centered around relationships. It was centered around relationship building and that was the central part of who I got to be as a teacher because I got that from her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But she’s also quick to point out that her mom wasn’t naïve about the realities of teaching. Rita loved her students fiercely, but she knew that caring deeply for students wasn’t enough to protect her from burnout or from a system that often asks too much with too little support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And she reminded me quickly, my first year teaching, that I’m no good to my kids if I’m exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk\u003c/strong>: When Kristin had an especially hard day in the classroom. Rita would say, “You get 5 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> It just means that you know, your sadness, there’s an end point to it. So whatever that five minutes is, it might be a day, it might be a week, it might be a month. But just know that at some point there’s going to be an end to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kristin says those lessons from her mom took on a very different meaning not long after the TED Talk was filmed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> After you know, they shot that TED talk, she she passed about three months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kirstin isn’t in the classroom anymore, but she still works with educators. she brings her mom’s presence with her everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> I think about my mom every day, and it’s been close to 13 years since she was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristin Pierson Forrest:\u003c/strong> And even the day she passed, I had to remind myself, okay, you get five minutes. I don’t know if my five minutes is over yet. I really I really don’t know. But I I haven’t stayed in a sad place clearly, but but it’s definitely reminded me to pick myself up, dust myself off, and and what’s the next thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> More than a decade later, Rita Pierson’s talk is still finding new audiences – not just among teachers, but among the people learning to become teachers. And that’s where Melissa Stanley comes in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I am Dr. Melissa K. Stanley and I am the director of secondary social studies education at Central Michigan University.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> I teach social studies methods courses to help prepare them to be social studies teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She first saw Rita’s talk back when she was teaching in K–12 classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> And it really resonated with me and resonated with the way that I taught. I felt like I was meeting someone who viewed education and viewed the role of a teacher the same way that I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And once Melissa became a teacher-educator at Central Michigan University. The talk became part of how she teaches. It’s a required video during the semester that her class does their pre-student teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> They’re pretty nervous. And that is the semester that they do their pre-student teaching. It’s is the first real experience that they’ll get with students in going into classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa uses the video to introduce students to asset-based pedagogy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It’s looking at the whole student and it’s valuing what they bring and building relationships with them when the history of education has traditionally been kind of a deficit approach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That means seeing students through their problems rather than their potential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Studies show that when teachers take an asset-based approach, valuing students’ cultural strengths, community knowledge, and lived identities, students show stronger academic engagement, better attendance, and improved well-being. And teachers themselves experience more purpose and lower burnout because relationships feel reciprocal rather than adversarial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> That really helps us have conversations and then use it as a gateway into conversations with students about how we adopt an asset bit based pedagogy and how we value the whole student and we value the strengths they bring to the classroom, the diversity they bring to the classroom, and how we work with that to build relationships and then also help them grow and meet their goals and their dreams for their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> for some preservice teachers, this is a brand-new idea. Their own schooling may not have included teachers who championed them. So imagining themselves as that kind of teacher can be hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> It generally generates a lot of questions about okay, how do we do this? This is great. I would love to get there. That’s kind of an end goal for me. But what are the steps along the way? What does that look like in practical application?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They also discuss Rita’s line about joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk:\u003c/strong>Teaching and learning should bring joy.]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> But if you’re engaging in this type of teaching and this type of work with students, not every moment is going to be joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[\u003cstrong>Rita’s TED Talk: \u003c/strong>So teachers become great actors and great actresses. And we come to work when we don’t feel like it. And we listen to policy that doesn’t make sense. And we teach anyway. We teach anyway because that’s what we do. ]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa K. Stanley:\u003c/strong> So we have a discussion about what that looks like and how do we keep our enthusiasm for teaching when things are hard, when things don’t go as well as we want them to, despite best intentions or despite support that we provide for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Melissa is naming something important. Teachers want to show up for kids the way Rita did, but the reality is that teaching is stressful. And not just the piles of grading or the endless meetings—interpersonal stress can hit teachers particularly hard. It affects their bodies and can leave them feeling emotionally exhausted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ganga Bey is a researcher at the University of North Carolina. She studies how stress affects the body and why stress hits some people harder than others. And one thing she’s interested in is how the way we think about other people changes how stress affects us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Love to me is this idea of opening our ego boundaries to include everyone else in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In simpler terms: seeing other people’s well-being as connected to your own. That can matter a lot in the classroom. Because when a student lashes out, a teacher can interpret that in different ways. They can think: This kid doesn’t respect me. Or: This kid is struggling right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And Ganga says that shift matters physically—not just emotionally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> So because of that, I’m literally gonna process that in a less stressful way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now to be clear—this is not the same thing as toxic positivity. This isn’t: ‘Just smile through abuse.’ And it’s not: ‘Teachers should sacrifice themselves for kids.’ In fact, Ganga says one of the biggest problems in education is that teachers are already being asked to give too much of themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Teachers are a particular group of people. Who encounter a tremendous amount of stressors and some of them are avoidable stressors right and part of the way that we organize our society teachers are undervalued um overworked and and live in a largely thankless space\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Teachers are reporting record-high stress levels, elevated rates of depression, and many are leaving the profession within the first five years. Ganga says burnout often happens when teachers keep putting everyone else’s needs ahead of their own for too long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I think burnout happens when you have pushed out, pushed through as much as possibly can because you have centered the needs of these children that you have been serving above even your own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> So her argument isn’t “love harder.” It’s that teachers have to include themselves in that care too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> It means that when my body is signaling to me that I am tired…we give equal weight to our needs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong>That balance—staying open to students without completely draining yourself—is hard. But Ganga says people like Rita Pierson matter because that care seem possible\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> I love to hear about Rita because I know that there are other people out there like that who embody this. And the more that we make them into real human beings and make them accessible, the more than I think we can convince others that it’s worth endeavoring to even be like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ganga Bey:\u003c/strong> Regardless of what the world right now may make us think, that it is worth it for us to pursue a world and a society and hold on to the idea that being loving can be the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Greater Good Science Center at UC Berkeley and the Templeton Foundation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, Rebecca Rogers, a kindergarten teacher at Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, California, wasn’t sure how much longer she could keep teaching. She was dealing with a mysterious immune reaction that doctors couldn’t explain; and she was losing weight, struggling to eat and constantly exhausted. At the same time, she was teaching a classroom full of 4 and 5-year-olds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was probably crying most days coming to school,” Rogers said. “Like, how am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, every morning, she still showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had to be there for these little people who were learning how to do school for the first time,” she said. “I was a hot mess in education.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers’ experience reflects a challenge facing schools across the country. National surveys have found that teachers report \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/teacher-stress-declining\">high rates of stress and burnout\u003c/a>, and many districts continue to struggle with educator retention. Researchers have also found that teacher wellbeing affects more than the adults in the building. Teacher stress can influence \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10421665/\">classroom climate, student engagement and disciplinary practices\u003c/a>. Yet while schools have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kff.org/mental-health/the-landscape-of-school-based-mental-health-services/\">increasingly invested in student mental health supports\u003c/a>, that same level of consideration hasn’t been extended to educators. Oakland Unified School District, where Rogers teaches, is\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/02/12/ousd-budget-plan-cuts-central-office-50-million-deficit/\"> facing a $103 million deficit and is \u003c/a>projected to experience significant cuts to the district’s central office, as well as teaching and support staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these challenges, Redwood Heights school leaders are trying something different.\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Moving Beyond Burnout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, Redwood Heights principal Cynthia Bagby began looking for ways to better support her staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve always wanted to have a program that would take care of the teachers and help them have balance,” Bagby said. When she learned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.theteachingwell.org/\">The Teaching Well\u003c/a>, an Oakland-based nonprofit focused on educator wellbeing, she felt the organization’s approach aligned with her own beliefs about leadership. “It matched my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well was founded around the premise that supporting educators requires more than helping individual teachers cope with stress. The organization works at three levels: individual, interpersonal and systemic. Depending on a school’s needs, The Teaching Well may provide therapy or mentoring for individual educators; facilitate professional development sessions for school staff; coach principals and district leaders on workplace conditions and school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce,” said Lindsey Fuller, executive director of the Teaching Well. “We actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The organization’s staff, including the clinical therapists, is entirely made up of former teachers and administrators who understand the realities of school life firsthand. “We all have a burnout story,” Fuller said. “We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Supporting Individual Teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, who currently teaches first grade, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53875/how-reflective-supervision-sessions-help-teachers-cope-with-the-stress-of-the-job\">one of the most meaningful supports\u003c/a> came through one-on-one mentoring. “It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom,” she said. In conversations with her mentor, Rogers found herself talking about the difficulty of leaving work at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here,” she said. “I’m showering and trying to go to sleep and eat, and I’m like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need?” Researchers sometimes refer to this as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66329/want-to-lighten-your-mental-load-first-let-go-of-these-gender-myths\">emotional labor,\u003c/a> which is the work of managing not only your own emotions but also responding to the emotional needs of others. For educators, that work often extends far beyond the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers also participated in therapy through The Teaching Well. Research suggests that therapy and mental health support can reduce stress and symptoms of burnout among educators, but access can be difficult because of cost, insurance barriers and long waitlists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fuller argues that teachers face additional challenges because their work involves absorbing students’ struggles and trauma. “A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it,” she said. Because the organization’s therapists are all former educators, teachers are able to move more quickly into meaningful conversations, according to Fuller. “It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building a Culture of Support\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, I attended a Teaching Well session held in the school library. Teachers were seated in a circle with their snacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson started a session with a simple question. “How are y’all feeling?” he asked. Teachers called out numbers to rate their energy levels between one and five, with one being low energy and five as high energy. Several reported twos and threes.The session began with a somatic exercise designed to help participants notice what was happening in their bodies. “We can’t silence stress,” Robinson told the group. “But we can turn down the volume.” Teachers closed their eyes and placed their hands on their chests and stomachs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, educators discussed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58702/is-it-ok-for-teachers-to-cry-in-class\">warning signs that stress was building\u003c/a>. Teachers colored in worksheets with car dashboards printed on them, identifying the emotional and physical signals that told them something was wrong. The goal was to help educators recognize stress before it became overwhelming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the sessions helped normalize conversations about wellbeing that rarely happened in schools. “It gave me this opportunity to think about myself and my practice,” she said, “and me as a human in the context of teaching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving Schools Through Systems\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well’s leaders are careful not to frame burnout as an individual problem that teachers can solve through breathing exercises alone. Fuller says lasting change requires attention to the conditions teachers work within. At Redwood Heights, that meant coaching and support for principal Bagby as well, who says the work has helped create a shared language around relationships, stress and conflict. “What I appreciate about The Teaching Well is they’ve given us practices to maintain that human element—the compassionate element— of how we relate to each other,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching Well partnerships typically last 3-5 years. The organization posits that quick wellness initiatives often fail because they don’t address underlying causes of burnout. “We love to invest in Band-Aids,” Fuller said. “We are reticent to invest in root-cause strategy and sustained support.” The model also depends on buy-in from school and district leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Redwood Heights Elementary, teacher retention rose from 75% in the 2022–23 school year to 91% in 2024–25, \u003ca href=\"https://dashboards.ousd.org/t/HR/views/RetentionDashboardPublic/TeachersatSites?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowShareOptions=true&%3Adisplay_count=no&%3AshowVizHome=no\">a 16-percentage-point increase\u003c/a> during the school’s partnership with The Teaching Well. Across its partner schools nationally, the organization says it retained 85% of participating educators. While individual teachers can benefit from mentoring or therapy, broader cultural changes require administrators willing to examine policies, expectations and workplace conditions. In other words, supporting teachers is not just about helping them become more resilient. It’s also about changing the systems in which they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research increasingly suggests that teacher wellbeing affects students as well. “We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65836/strict-rules-can-foster-calm-classrooms-but-some-students-pay-the-price\">exclusionary discipline\u003c/a>,” Fuller said. “When a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the changes have shown up in smaller moments. When she notices herself becoming stressed, she now uses some of the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53306/how-mindfulness-can-help-teachers-and-students-manage-challenging-situations\">somatic practices\u003c/a> she learned through mentoring and professional development. She has also introduced breathing exercises into her first grade classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whenever we come in from lunch or recess, before we do anything, it’s time for breath work,” Rogers said. The experience has changed the way she interprets \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">student behavior\u003c/a>. “It’s allowed me to view my students in a different way [by] thinking about a trauma-informed response and what they might need,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years after she considered leaving teaching, Rogers is still at Redwood Heights. Recently, she found herself looking around her classroom and reflecting on how much her students have grown in a school year that seemed to fly by. “They’re doing it. It’s happening. Like their brains are growing” she said, “I’m like ‘Look at you reading.’”\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was probably crying most days coming to school like ‘How am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, kindergarten teacher Becca Rogers thought she might have to leave teaching altogether. She was having serious health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like having this immune reaction that Western medicine could not figure out. I was losing a ton of weight, I was having these really reactive experiences with food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And every morning, she still had to walk into a kindergarten classroom full of five-year-olds. Little kids who needed help opening snacks and learning how to stand in line. And while she was trying to care for all of them, she was barely holding herself together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>That’s what was going on. I was a hot mess in education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I was little, I thought teachers lived at school. A lot of kids think that. But I think even adults can forget that teachers are carrying entire lives and struggles into the classroom with them. Increasingly, many are burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>National surveys have found that teachers report higher rates of burnout than many other professions. And in recent years, schools across the country have struggled to retain educators. That stress doesn’t just affect teachers, it can shape classroom climate, student relationships, and even disciplinary outcomes. In this episode, we look at what happens when schools start treating teacher wellbeing as essential — not extra — and what it takes to support the people who care for kids. People like Becca Rogers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to show up with a cold and be sick than call the sub.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Calling out sick can sometimes create its own kind of stress. Teachers might need to prepare another lesson plan or be worried about how the day will go without them. For Becca, it was just easier to push through\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I’m someone who says yes, right? Like I’m a teacher, I’m a union rep. I sit on the board of my child’s preschool. I’m a runner, I am a mom. Like, I have a hard time saying no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At one point her colleague pulled her aside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> And was like, how are you doing? You don’t look good, you don’t sound good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like yeah, I’ve been hiding that I don’t feel good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We are hemorrhaging educators across this country\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lindsey Fuller, executive director of The Teaching Well. The Teaching Well organization works with schools and districts to support educator wellbeing as essential to helping teachers keep teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce, we actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Schools are often asked to work with outside consultants and organizations. But teachers can sometimes feel like the people trying to support them don’t fully understand what classrooms are actually like. At The Teaching Well, the staff are all former educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong> So we get it. That is one of the things that makes us really stand out as an organization. We all have a burnout story. We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed and we will always fight for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Their team is made up of 13 facilitators and therapists and they approach teacher wellbeing on multiple levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The individual, interpersonal, and systemic level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In practice, that might mean they provide therapy for one teacher, lead professional development sessions for an entire staff, or coach district leaders trying to improve working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some teachers, conversations about “wellness” can feel disconnected from the realities of overcrowded classrooms, staffing shortages, and impossible workloads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of folks hear wellness and they think it’s all woo-woo, like yoga, Lululemon on the beach. That is not what we’re talking about. There’s rigor and strategy in workplace wellbeing initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, the school where Becca works, principal Cynthia Bagby had been watching teachers struggle under increasing pressure. Around the same time Becca was burning out, Cynthia decided to bring in The Teaching Well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby: \u003c/strong>I’ve always wanted to have a program that would kind of take care of the teachers. And like help them to have balance, but also focusing on how they can manage themselves as teachers. And so when I heard about this organization, I thought, oh it matches my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says many teachers enter the profession with deep care for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> They really want to make a difference in the world. And then when they get in the classroom, it’s challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teacher stress is closely tied to high turnover rates, especially in schools serving high-needs communities. Cynthia hoped The Teaching Well could help sustain teachers by giving them the tools to care for themselves and each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> When people feel supported, of course they could show up differently. And then you’re not teaching out of fear, but you’re teaching out a love you’re teaching knowing that someone has your back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Partnerships with the Teaching Well are designed to last 3-5 years. In these long term relationships with schools they’ve been able to retain 85% of teachers they work with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lasting change usually depends on whether school and district leaders are willing to shift the conditions teachers are working in. Cynthia was willing to work directly with teaching well staff to be more responsive to teachers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> I also receive coaching with them too. I get to hear their perspective from the like general feedback they get, maybe from the teachers, kind of keep me to see if I’m aligned with what I believe about leading a school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Improving teacher wellbeing involves buy-in from administrators and a long term commitment. But there is more that can be done to help teachers thrive. We’ll get into what happens at the group and individual level after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Each month the Teaching Well comes to Redwood Heights to do professional development after school. Executive director Lindsey Fuller greets people at the door. About twenty educators come in to sink into chairs arranged in a circle. teacher Becca Rogers is there and so is principal Cynthia Bagby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>How y’all feeling? One to five, as five being high, One being a low, can I get a number? I just want to see what I’m dealing with today. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> I’m seeing some twos, threes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At the front of the room is facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson Robinson. He starts the session with a somatic practice – These are breathing and movement techniques designed to help regulate the nervous system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>We can’t silence stress, right? But we can turn down the value. So the intention today is to find the knob for the volume. How do we turn that down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>He asks teachers to close their eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>Place one hand over your heart if you have your hands available and your belly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> Now take a slow, steady breath in release. Take another one in through your nose this time and exhale through your mouth like a soft sigh. Now we’re going to begin to notice, starting from the top, going down. Start at your forehead, your jaw.….”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Around the room, shoulders drop. A few teachers lean back in their chairs and exhale deeply. For a couple minutes, nobody is redirecting behavior. Nobody is answering emails or prepping lessons.They’re just paying attention to their own bodies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>See if you could turn the volume down just one more notch….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When the exercise ends, teachers slowly blink their eyes open. A few nod quietly to themselves, almost like they’re saying: okay. I’m here now. The sessions are designed to help teachers recognize how stress shows up physically and emotionally. At one point, educators are handed worksheets with car dashboards printed on them. Lindsey explains what they’ll do with them\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna get to do some coloring today, um designing your own dashboard. So we’re going to do a little car metaphor play. Uh and then we’re, we’re gonna help you think about our stress management sequence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea is to think about the warning lights going off internally. She says some stress signals are temporary — like a seatbelt alarm. Others are more serious. The kind you can ignore for a little while, but not forever. She tells the group what is going on in their bodies when this happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The amygdala is a part of your brain that helps alert us when there’s a problem. It says, hey yo… something’s going off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take about four minutes here, and then we’re gonna invite you a couple of folks to share out. Okay? So let’s get connected. Feel free to turn and talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers sit coloring in dashboards with colored pencils, They’re talking quietly with one another about burnout, frustration, and overload. For teachers like Becca, being asked how they’re doing — and being honest about the answer — was a major shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The group sessions are one part of The Teaching Well’s model. But teachers can also receive individual support through one on one mentoring and clinical therapy. Becca has used both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom and seeing what they can provide me. We do a lot of somatic practices or just thinking out loud or touching base what’s actually happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In one mentoring session, Becca tells Teaching Well’s Marc Anthony Robinson over a video call that it is hard to separate teaching from the rest of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s just nice to just sit for a moment. And it’s good for me because after this, I’m going straight to another thing. I’m gonna the new families event for kindergarten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>So you gotta be back on in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I do. I do have to do this back on again. I know, it doesn’t stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here. And I’m like showering and trying to go to sleep and eat. And I’m, like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong> I have to like, it’s okay. You do not need to like hold that when you leave, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>I’m really just honored to be doing this process and this journey with you because I’ve seen you maneuver through a lot and I’m excited for what this new year is going to bring for you school year wise. It’s like it’s going to feel different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In addition to mentoring Becca has also used the therapy services through Teaching Well. Therapy has also been shown to reduce stress and burnout in teachers, but waitlists and cost can make access difficult. Through Teaching Well, teachers can have up to 16 therapy sessions. And if a teacher needs more, Teaching Well helps them get a therapist through their insurance. Lindsey says that mental health services are becoming more available, but oftentimes they’re just for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> What no one is funding comprehensively yet, and we are looking for, is who is funding the mental health grants and programs for the educators that receive those students, that work with them day in and day out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Educators are often absorbing students’ trauma. This is called vicarious or secondary trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The clinical therapists at the teaching well are also former educators. Which addresses a pitfall that is common in many free therapy programs for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>They’re spending so much time trying to explain the context of working in a school that they don’t get to get to the healing. It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When teachers are well students fare better too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of exclusionary discipline. In other words, when a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class and refer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three years after Becca thought about leaving teaching, she’s still at Redwood Heights. And she says she no longer feels like crying before school every day. Having space to talk about teaching to her mentor and her colleagues helped her reestablish herself and her values\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It gave me this like opportunity to be very meta and think about myself and my practice. And me as a human in the context of teaching\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, when stress rises in the classroom, she notices it earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>When I feel myself getting stressed in the class, I find that’s a time for somatic practice for me and I share that practice with my students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>We also do a lot of breath work. Whenever we come in from lunch, recess, we know before we do anything, it’s time for breath work so we can help with that transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[breathing exercise]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I think it’s also allowed me to view my students in a different way, like thinking about a trauma informed response and like what I need, maybe what they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Becca has more empathy now. More capacity to stay present through hard moments with her students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>They’re really navigating something too, right. They’re human, I’m a human and we’re having this experience together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, Rebecca Rogers, a kindergarten teacher at Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, California, wasn’t sure how much longer she could keep teaching. She was dealing with a mysterious immune reaction that doctors couldn’t explain; and she was losing weight, struggling to eat and constantly exhausted. At the same time, she was teaching a classroom full of 4 and 5-year-olds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was probably crying most days coming to school,” Rogers said. “Like, how am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, every morning, she still showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had to be there for these little people who were learning how to do school for the first time,” she said. “I was a hot mess in education.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers’ experience reflects a challenge facing schools across the country. National surveys have found that teachers report \u003ca href=\"https://www.nea.org/nea-today/all-news-articles/teacher-stress-declining\">high rates of stress and burnout\u003c/a>, and many districts continue to struggle with educator retention. Researchers have also found that teacher wellbeing affects more than the adults in the building. Teacher stress can influence \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10421665/\">classroom climate, student engagement and disciplinary practices\u003c/a>. Yet while schools have \u003ca href=\"https://www.kff.org/mental-health/the-landscape-of-school-based-mental-health-services/\">increasingly invested in student mental health supports\u003c/a>, that same level of consideration hasn’t been extended to educators. Oakland Unified School District, where Rogers teaches, is\u003ca href=\"https://oaklandside.org/2026/02/12/ousd-budget-plan-cuts-central-office-50-million-deficit/\"> facing a $103 million deficit and is \u003c/a>projected to experience significant cuts to the district’s central office, as well as teaching and support staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite these challenges, Redwood Heights school leaders are trying something different.\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Moving Beyond Burnout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Three years ago, Redwood Heights principal Cynthia Bagby began looking for ways to better support her staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve always wanted to have a program that would take care of the teachers and help them have balance,” Bagby said. When she learned about \u003ca href=\"https://www.theteachingwell.org/\">The Teaching Well\u003c/a>, an Oakland-based nonprofit focused on educator wellbeing, she felt the organization’s approach aligned with her own beliefs about leadership. “It matched my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well was founded around the premise that supporting educators requires more than helping individual teachers cope with stress. The organization works at three levels: individual, interpersonal and systemic. Depending on a school’s needs, The Teaching Well may provide therapy or mentoring for individual educators; facilitate professional development sessions for school staff; coach principals and district leaders on workplace conditions and school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce,” said Lindsey Fuller, executive director of the Teaching Well. “We actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The organization’s staff, including the clinical therapists, is entirely made up of former teachers and administrators who understand the realities of school life firsthand. “We all have a burnout story,” Fuller said. “We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Supporting Individual Teachers\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, who currently teaches first grade, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53875/how-reflective-supervision-sessions-help-teachers-cope-with-the-stress-of-the-job\">one of the most meaningful supports\u003c/a> came through one-on-one mentoring. “It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom,” she said. In conversations with her mentor, Rogers found herself talking about the difficulty of leaving work at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here,” she said. “I’m showering and trying to go to sleep and eat, and I’m like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need?” Researchers sometimes refer to this as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/66329/want-to-lighten-your-mental-load-first-let-go-of-these-gender-myths\">emotional labor,\u003c/a> which is the work of managing not only your own emotions but also responding to the emotional needs of others. For educators, that work often extends far beyond the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rogers also participated in therapy through The Teaching Well. Research suggests that therapy and mental health support can reduce stress and symptoms of burnout among educators, but access can be difficult because of cost, insurance barriers and long waitlists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fuller argues that teachers face additional challenges because their work involves absorbing students’ struggles and trauma. “A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it,” she said. Because the organization’s therapists are all former educators, teachers are able to move more quickly into meaningful conversations, according to Fuller. “It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building a Culture of Support\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Earlier this year, I attended a Teaching Well session held in the school library. Teachers were seated in a circle with their snacks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson started a session with a simple question. “How are y’all feeling?” he asked. Teachers called out numbers to rate their energy levels between one and five, with one being low energy and five as high energy. Several reported twos and threes.The session began with a somatic exercise designed to help participants notice what was happening in their bodies. “We can’t silence stress,” Robinson told the group. “But we can turn down the volume.” Teachers closed their eyes and placed their hands on their chests and stomachs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Later, educators discussed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58702/is-it-ok-for-teachers-to-cry-in-class\">warning signs that stress was building\u003c/a>. Teachers colored in worksheets with car dashboards printed on them, identifying the emotional and physical signals that told them something was wrong. The goal was to help educators recognize stress before it became overwhelming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the sessions helped normalize conversations about wellbeing that rarely happened in schools. “It gave me this opportunity to think about myself and my practice,” she said, “and me as a human in the context of teaching.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving Schools Through Systems\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Teaching Well’s leaders are careful not to frame burnout as an individual problem that teachers can solve through breathing exercises alone. Fuller says lasting change requires attention to the conditions teachers work within. At Redwood Heights, that meant coaching and support for principal Bagby as well, who says the work has helped create a shared language around relationships, stress and conflict. “What I appreciate about The Teaching Well is they’ve given us practices to maintain that human element—the compassionate element— of how we relate to each other,” she added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teaching Well partnerships typically last 3-5 years. The organization posits that quick wellness initiatives often fail because they don’t address underlying causes of burnout. “We love to invest in Band-Aids,” Fuller said. “We are reticent to invest in root-cause strategy and sustained support.” The model also depends on buy-in from school and district leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Redwood Heights Elementary, teacher retention rose from 75% in the 2022–23 school year to 91% in 2024–25, \u003ca href=\"https://dashboards.ousd.org/t/HR/views/RetentionDashboardPublic/TeachersatSites?%3Aembed=y&%3AshowShareOptions=true&%3Adisplay_count=no&%3AshowVizHome=no\">a 16-percentage-point increase\u003c/a> during the school’s partnership with The Teaching Well. Across its partner schools nationally, the organization says it retained 85% of participating educators. While individual teachers can benefit from mentoring or therapy, broader cultural changes require administrators willing to examine policies, expectations and workplace conditions. In other words, supporting teachers is not just about helping them become more resilient. It’s also about changing the systems in which they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Research increasingly suggests that teacher wellbeing affects students as well. “We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65836/strict-rules-can-foster-calm-classrooms-but-some-students-pay-the-price\">exclusionary discipline\u003c/a>,” Fuller said. “When a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Rogers, the changes have shown up in smaller moments. When she notices herself becoming stressed, she now uses some of the same \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/53306/how-mindfulness-can-help-teachers-and-students-manage-challenging-situations\">somatic practices\u003c/a> she learned through mentoring and professional development. She has also introduced breathing exercises into her first grade classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whenever we come in from lunch or recess, before we do anything, it’s time for breath work,” Rogers said. The experience has changed the way she interprets \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59748/how-perspective-taking-can-improve-classroom-behavior-and-teacher-student-relationships\">student behavior\u003c/a>. “It’s allowed me to view my students in a different way [by] thinking about a trauma-informed response and what they might need,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Three years after she considered leaving teaching, Rogers is still at Redwood Heights. Recently, she found herself looking around her classroom and reflecting on how much her students have grown in a school year that seemed to fly by. “They’re doing it. It’s happening. Like their brains are growing” she said, “I’m like ‘Look at you reading.’”\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6877718515\" width=\"100%\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was probably crying most days coming to school like ‘How am I going to do this? I have no energy. I’m exhausted.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few years ago, kindergarten teacher Becca Rogers thought she might have to leave teaching altogether. She was having serious health issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like having this immune reaction that Western medicine could not figure out. I was losing a ton of weight, I was having these really reactive experiences with food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And every morning, she still had to walk into a kindergarten classroom full of five-year-olds. Little kids who needed help opening snacks and learning how to stand in line. And while she was trying to care for all of them, she was barely holding herself together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>That’s what was going on. I was a hot mess in education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I was little, I thought teachers lived at school. A lot of kids think that. But I think even adults can forget that teachers are carrying entire lives and struggles into the classroom with them. Increasingly, many are burning out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>National surveys have found that teachers report higher rates of burnout than many other professions. And in recent years, schools across the country have struggled to retain educators. That stress doesn’t just affect teachers, it can shape classroom climate, student relationships, and even disciplinary outcomes. In this episode, we look at what happens when schools start treating teacher wellbeing as essential — not extra — and what it takes to support the people who care for kids. People like Becca Rogers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to show up with a cold and be sick than call the sub.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Calling out sick can sometimes create its own kind of stress. Teachers might need to prepare another lesson plan or be worried about how the day will go without them. For Becca, it was just easier to push through\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I’m someone who says yes, right? Like I’m a teacher, I’m a union rep. I sit on the board of my child’s preschool. I’m a runner, I am a mom. Like, I have a hard time saying no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At one point her colleague pulled her aside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> And was like, how are you doing? You don’t look good, you don’t sound good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> I was like yeah, I’ve been hiding that I don’t feel good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We are hemorrhaging educators across this country\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lindsey Fuller, executive director of The Teaching Well. The Teaching Well organization works with schools and districts to support educator wellbeing as essential to helping teachers keep teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> We not only want to recruit a diverse workforce, we actually want to retain and sustain them, because when educators are well, kids thrive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Schools are often asked to work with outside consultants and organizations. But teachers can sometimes feel like the people trying to support them don’t fully understand what classrooms are actually like. At The Teaching Well, the staff are all former educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong> So we get it. That is one of the things that makes us really stand out as an organization. We all have a burnout story. We’re all building the organization we needed to have stayed and we will always fight for kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Their team is made up of 13 facilitators and therapists and they approach teacher wellbeing on multiple levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The individual, interpersonal, and systemic level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In practice, that might mean they provide therapy for one teacher, lead professional development sessions for an entire staff, or coach district leaders trying to improve working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For some teachers, conversations about “wellness” can feel disconnected from the realities of overcrowded classrooms, staffing shortages, and impossible workloads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of folks hear wellness and they think it’s all woo-woo, like yoga, Lululemon on the beach. That is not what we’re talking about. There’s rigor and strategy in workplace wellbeing initiatives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At Redwood Heights Elementary School in Oakland, the school where Becca works, principal Cynthia Bagby had been watching teachers struggle under increasing pressure. Around the same time Becca was burning out, Cynthia decided to bring in The Teaching Well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby: \u003c/strong>I’ve always wanted to have a program that would kind of take care of the teachers. And like help them to have balance, but also focusing on how they can manage themselves as teachers. And so when I heard about this organization, I thought, oh it matches my philosophy on taking care of the human that does the work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She says many teachers enter the profession with deep care for children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> They really want to make a difference in the world. And then when they get in the classroom, it’s challenging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teacher stress is closely tied to high turnover rates, especially in schools serving high-needs communities. Cynthia hoped The Teaching Well could help sustain teachers by giving them the tools to care for themselves and each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> When people feel supported, of course they could show up differently. And then you’re not teaching out of fear, but you’re teaching out a love you’re teaching knowing that someone has your back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Partnerships with the Teaching Well are designed to last 3-5 years. In these long term relationships with schools they’ve been able to retain 85% of teachers they work with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lasting change usually depends on whether school and district leaders are willing to shift the conditions teachers are working in. Cynthia was willing to work directly with teaching well staff to be more responsive to teachers\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cynthia Bagby:\u003c/strong> I also receive coaching with them too. I get to hear their perspective from the like general feedback they get, maybe from the teachers, kind of keep me to see if I’m aligned with what I believe about leading a school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Improving teacher wellbeing involves buy-in from administrators and a long term commitment. But there is more that can be done to help teachers thrive. We’ll get into what happens at the group and individual level after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Each month the Teaching Well comes to Redwood Heights to do professional development after school. Executive director Lindsey Fuller greets people at the door. About twenty educators come in to sink into chairs arranged in a circle. teacher Becca Rogers is there and so is principal Cynthia Bagby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>How y’all feeling? One to five, as five being high, One being a low, can I get a number? I just want to see what I’m dealing with today. Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> I’m seeing some twos, threes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> At the front of the room is facilitator Marc Anthony Robinson Robinson. He starts the session with a somatic practice – These are breathing and movement techniques designed to help regulate the nervous system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>We can’t silence stress, right? But we can turn down the value. So the intention today is to find the knob for the volume. How do we turn that down?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>He asks teachers to close their eyes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>Place one hand over your heart if you have your hands available and your belly\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson:\u003c/strong> Now take a slow, steady breath in release. Take another one in through your nose this time and exhale through your mouth like a soft sigh. Now we’re going to begin to notice, starting from the top, going down. Start at your forehead, your jaw.….”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Around the room, shoulders drop. A few teachers lean back in their chairs and exhale deeply. For a couple minutes, nobody is redirecting behavior. Nobody is answering emails or prepping lessons.They’re just paying attention to their own bodies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>See if you could turn the volume down just one more notch….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When the exercise ends, teachers slowly blink their eyes open. A few nod quietly to themselves, almost like they’re saying: okay. I’m here now. The sessions are designed to help teachers recognize how stress shows up physically and emotionally. At one point, educators are handed worksheets with car dashboards printed on them. Lindsey explains what they’ll do with them\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna get to do some coloring today, um designing your own dashboard. So we’re going to do a little car metaphor play. Uh and then we’re, we’re gonna help you think about our stress management sequence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The idea is to think about the warning lights going off internally. She says some stress signals are temporary — like a seatbelt alarm. Others are more serious. The kind you can ignore for a little while, but not forever. She tells the group what is going on in their bodies when this happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>The amygdala is a part of your brain that helps alert us when there’s a problem. It says, hey yo… something’s going off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re gonna take about four minutes here, and then we’re gonna invite you a couple of folks to share out. Okay? So let’s get connected. Feel free to turn and talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Teachers sit coloring in dashboards with colored pencils, They’re talking quietly with one another about burnout, frustration, and overload. For teachers like Becca, being asked how they’re doing — and being honest about the answer — was a major shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>The group sessions are one part of The Teaching Well’s model. But teachers can also receive individual support through one on one mentoring and clinical therapy. Becca has used both.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s a space for me to talk with someone about what’s happening in my life and in my classroom and seeing what they can provide me. We do a lot of somatic practices or just thinking out loud or touching base what’s actually happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In one mentoring session, Becca tells Teaching Well’s Marc Anthony Robinson over a video call that it is hard to separate teaching from the rest of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>It’s just nice to just sit for a moment. And it’s good for me because after this, I’m going straight to another thing. I’m gonna the new families event for kindergarten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>So you gotta be back on in a minute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I do. I do have to do this back on again. I know, it doesn’t stop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>All these children I hold in my brain when I leave here. And I’m like showering and trying to go to sleep and eat. And I’m, like, how can I support this kid better? How can I show up in a way that supports what they need\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong> I have to like, it’s okay. You do not need to like hold that when you leave, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marc Anthony Robinson: \u003c/strong>I’m really just honored to be doing this process and this journey with you because I’ve seen you maneuver through a lot and I’m excited for what this new year is going to bring for you school year wise. It’s like it’s going to feel different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In addition to mentoring Becca has also used the therapy services through Teaching Well. Therapy has also been shown to reduce stress and burnout in teachers, but waitlists and cost can make access difficult. Through Teaching Well, teachers can have up to 16 therapy sessions. And if a teacher needs more, Teaching Well helps them get a therapist through their insurance. Lindsey says that mental health services are becoming more available, but oftentimes they’re just for students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> What no one is funding comprehensively yet, and we are looking for, is who is funding the mental health grants and programs for the educators that receive those students, that work with them day in and day out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Educators are often absorbing students’ trauma. This is called vicarious or secondary trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller:\u003c/strong> A lot of why people are leaving is burnout or because there’s a tragedy or school community violence and there’s no real outlet to process it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The clinical therapists at the teaching well are also former educators. Which addresses a pitfall that is common in many free therapy programs for teachers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>They’re spending so much time trying to explain the context of working in a school that they don’t get to get to the healing. It just cuts to the chase and gets them directly to the service that they need to be able to be retained.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When teachers are well students fare better too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lindsey Fuller: \u003c/strong>We’re seeing a direct correlation between a dysregulated teacher and elevated rates of exclusionary discipline. In other words, when a teacher is unwell, they’re more likely to kick a kid out of class and refer them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Three years after Becca thought about leaving teaching, she’s still at Redwood Heights. And she says she no longer feels like crying before school every day. Having space to talk about teaching to her mentor and her colleagues helped her reestablish herself and her values\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers:\u003c/strong> It gave me this like opportunity to be very meta and think about myself and my practice. And me as a human in the context of teaching\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Now, when stress rises in the classroom, she notices it earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>When I feel myself getting stressed in the class, I find that’s a time for somatic practice for me and I share that practice with my students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>We also do a lot of breath work. Whenever we come in from lunch, recess, we know before we do anything, it’s time for breath work so we can help with that transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[breathing exercise]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>I think it’s also allowed me to view my students in a different way, like thinking about a trauma informed response and like what I need, maybe what they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Becca has more empathy now. More capacity to stay present through hard moments with her students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Becca Rogers: \u003c/strong>They’re really navigating something too, right. They’re human, I’m a human and we’re having this experience together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ki Sung talks with clinical psychologist and author Ross Greene about why traditional discipline strategies often fail students, and what educators can do instead. Greene explains his \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions\u003c/a> model, which shifts the focus away from rewards and punishments and toward identifying the unmet needs and unsolved problems behind student behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"http://www.youtube.com/embed/4qsGTXLnmKs\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Welcome to the MindShift podcast, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Ki Sung. There’s been no shortage of stories about what’s troubling kids today, the outbursts, the apathy, the mental health concerns. We’re seeing some signs of progress through solutions like limiting screen time and having more in real-life social interactions, but there are still students who need help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-full wp-image-66349\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"265\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg.jpg 265w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/23/2026/05/the-kids-who-arent-okay-9781668203903_lg-160x242.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 265px) 100vw, 265px\">\u003c/a>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene developed the \u003ca href=\"https://livesinthebalance.org/our-solution/\">Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model\u003c/a> to help all students, and it requires a different way of responding to students’ behavior. He’s the author of the recently published book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Kids-Who-Arent-Okay/Ross-W-Greene/9781668203903\">The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> He’s also the bestselling author of several other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome, Dr. Greene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Thank you for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for being here. Let’s talk first about what you describe as concerning behavior, the stuff that gets kids sent to the principal’s office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You say concerning behavior is how kids communicate that they’re having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. Can you tell us more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I do say that all the time, and I wish everybody knew that. We’ve, we’ve all become accustomed to the cliche “All behavior is communication.” Somehow, it doesn’t translate for a lot of people that concerning behavior communicates that a kid is frustrated or distressed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Concerning behavior is a frustration or distress response, and almost always, what the student is frustrated or distressed about is an expectation that they’re having difficulty meeting. Um, if all we pay attention to is the behavior, then we’re gonna be kinda narrow in what we can do, or… ’cause when you’re focused on behavior, all you can really do is try to modify it, and that’s usually accomplished through some mix of rewards and punishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But rewards and punishments, what a lot of people refer to as consequences, aren’t problem-solving strategies. So we have a lot of students who have experienced a lot of consequences and who are still doing poorly because the problems that are causing the behaviors that we’ve been busy consequencing often haven’t even been identified, let alone solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, it’s kinda wild to hear you say that because I hear a lot of focus on the behavior. So what are you proposing we do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I am proposing that we de-emphasize our focus on behavior, and by the way, our focus on behavior Is all around us. We are, um… When we have a kid who’s struggling and communicating that they’re struggling through their behavior, we do behavior checklists, we do behavior observations, we do a functional behavior assessment all so that we can come up with a behavior plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> When a student is struggling in a classroom and communicate that through their concerning behavior, they get a discipline referral, and what the, the information that is mostly passed along to the people who are on the receiving end of those discipline referrals is the kid’s concerning behavior. And what they often do about it is give the kid consequences for their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We need to instead, um, focus on the problems that are causing that behavior. I call them unsolved problems. The synonym for unsolved problem is unmet expectation. This includes things like stuff classroom teachers deal with every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, difficulty coming back into the classroom after recess, difficulty sitting next to Susie during circle time, difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math, difficulty agreeing with Billy on the rules of the four square game at recess, difficulty coming to school, difficulty coming to school on time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I could go on forever. Those are not typically the things people are talking about when they’re talking about a kid who’s struggling. They’re often talking about the kid’s concerning behavior and what they’re doing to try to modify it, and maybe even the diagnosis that captures those behaviors. We would be so much better off if we have an instrument that helps us identify their unsolved problems, and we do in the collaborative and proactive solutions model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And if we were engaging students in the process of solving those problems, meaning collaboratively, and since we’re now out in front of those problems, having now finally identified them, the problem should also be proactive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> I think there’s something huge in what you’re talking about solutions-wise in the word collaborative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It sounds like you’re talking about including the student as well in how to move forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That is so what I’m talking about. But I think a lot of adults, um, both in education, in education but also everywhere else, think it’s their job to divine what’s getting in the kid’s way and to divine what the solutions should be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> This is not that. Kids can be relied upon to help us understand what’s making it hard for them to meet a particular expectation. I’m often asked the question, “What makes you think the kid knows?” And my answer is, “i35 years of asking.” Kids can also be relied upon to, um, come up with solutions t- about what’s getting in the way of them meeting certain expectations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So this model is moving us away from being completely adult-driven. The adult is the facilitator of a process in which kid and adult are working toward solutions together. That is very different from what typically goes on now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> One thing I had to kind of work a little extra on to better understand is your concepts of collaborative and proactive solutions, because I realize a lot of why we continue to do what we’re doing, right, looking for behaviors, uh, trying to work in a behavior-focused model, I think a lot of why we operate that way is, is rooted in our communication, you know, how we communicate with young people, which is not necessarily open-ended, you know, which is thinking more about why have you not done this thing that I asked you to do already with the consequences in mind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Um, so can you give us some examples of how people can communicate to get to that state of collaboration versus maybe how we typically communicate now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, very interesting question. You know, solving a problem collaboratively starts with identifying the problem that you want to solve with the kid, and although that sounds like sort of a given, it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Mostly because we’re so focused on behavior that we often haven’t even identified the expectations a student is having difficulty reliably meeting. So we’ve gotta start with that, and the instrument that I was talking about is called the Assessment of Skills and Unsolved Problems, and it helps us memorialize every single expectation a particular student is having difficulty reliably meeting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And we are now, for having done that, out in front of it, which means we don’t have to wait for the frustration response to occur before we intervene. So much of intervention, so much of what we’re training educators to do, so much of what we’re teaching kids is what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated, and that’s late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> That’s crisis management. That’s not out in front of it. That’s waiting for the behavior to occur. Boy, does the game change when we proactively identify unsolved problems- That positions us to solve them proactively. Um, I’m always telling educators, being late is not a given. With some intentionality, with some commitment, with some imagination, we could be early instead of late.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So identifying unsolved problems is where the whole thing begins. It then continues with prioritizing the unsolved problems you’ve identified, because you’re not gonna be able to solve everything at once. Often we encourage educators to prioritize unsolved problems that are causing safety issues, because safety is a big deal in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then it’s time to start solving a problem collaboratively and proactively with a student. Um, what might that sound like? “I’ve noticed you’ve been having difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. What’s up?” The caregiver just got the conversation going. The caregiver is now facilitating a problem-solving process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> The caregiver is not thinking about consequences, because the caregiver should know that consequences don’t solve any problems. Now we’re looking to the kid to help us understand what’s making it hard. Now, sometimes kids say something that feel like a showstopper, like, “I hate it.” But one of the other things the collaborative and proactive solutions model provides is how to drill for more information, how to probe, and the drilling strategy, there are eight of them that I would use in that circumstances, is simple reflective listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> “You hate it. Tell me more about that.” “It’s stupid.” Sounds like another showstopper, but it’s not. “It’s stupid.” Um, “I’m sorry, I’m still not exactly sure what you mean. What do you mean when you say it’s stupid?” “It’s stupid how you make me do math I don’t know how to do.” Are we starting to get some traction here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> We are. Do we need to continue probing? We do, because we don’t yet know what’s making it hard for the kid to complete the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. But we do have a kid who’s now talking, and that is a wonderful thing. Um, eventually, and I’m thinking of a particular kid here, we learned that, uh, when the double-digit division problems in math were presented in words, as in word problems, they got completely stumped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> But when they could do it through, um, just doing out a division problem, they could do it just fine. Good. Now we know. That’s the first step of solving a problem collaboratively, curiosity, finding out what’s been getting in the kid’s way. The second step is the adult’s step. It’s their turn to say why they, um, think it’s important that the expectation Be met.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> And then in the third step, adult and kid are collaborating on a solution that’s going to address the concerns of both parties. Solved problems don’t cause frustration responses, only unsolved problems do. So when educators first hear about this process, and all I’ve given you is the basic outlines, the first thing they think about, and I completely understand why, is time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They ask, “When does he think we’re going to do this?” But I could make a very persuasive argument for the fact that the reason we have no time is because we haven’t been doing this. We’ve been chasing after behavior day after day, same kids. It saves a lot of time to finally identify and solve the problems we’ve been chasing after all this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Who was it that said, uh, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I don’t remember who it was, but they had a good point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> All right. Um, can I ask, in that instance with the math problem, what is the unproductive way to respond that you may have seen or heard about in classrooms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Oh, thinking that the student’s failure to do the math is due to poor motivation, and then thinking that what this student really needs is more motivation. And that could go in a few different directions. It could sound like this: “Uh, Billy, if you do not get that math done before recess, you are not going out for recess.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Could be in the form of reward, “Billy, if you get that math done, you get XYZ reward.” Very common. Um, we still have no idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the math. We’ve lost sight of the fact that we are not the first people who’ve tried to incentivize Billy to do things that are hard for him. Um, we’ve also lost sight of the fact that this is not the first time Billy’s had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> It’s the 197th, which makes this an old unsolved problem. Um, if we punish Billy for something, for a problem that he is currently unable to overcome on his own, we heighten the likelihood that Billy will exhibit a frustration response. If we dangle a reward in front of Billy, and Billy is unable to achieve that award because Billy is not yet over, uh, uh, able to overcome that problem- We still run the risk of a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’ve seen just as many frustration responses when a kid didn’t get an anticipated reward as I have in response to punishment. But the whole thing here is we still don’t have the slightest idea what’s making it hard for Billy to do the double-digit division problems on the worksheet in math. And until we do, Billy’s still gonna struggle with that unsolved problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> It’s really fascinating to hear you describe the latter because that is far more common experience from my point of view than anyone having sat down and spent time identifying an unsolved problem. I like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Even when people sit down with the kid and talk to the kid, what they’re often talking with the kid about is their concerning behavior.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Um, so you ran out of Mrs. Johnson’s classroom. Why’d you do that? And the answer that we most frequently get when people try to talk with kids about their frustration responses is, “I don’t know,” or the most primitive of defense mechanisms, “No, I didn’t.” Those conversations, generally speaking, go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Conversations we have about helping kids understand what’s making it hard for them to meet an expectation, actually they’re the ones who are helping us understand, and working toward a solution that finally gets the problem solved so the frustration responses subside, that’s a beautiful thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So as you said, “I don’t know,” or, you know, other things kids say like, “I don’t care,” I imagine adults also have a frustration response.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Does this help get at the root of how adults respond as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, a lot of maladaptive adult frustration responses occur in the heat of the moment as well. Our goal is to get out of the heat of the moment. The heat of the moment, I can’t say this enough times, isn’t a given. I know the students are difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I get it. I know that there’s too many of them in a classroom. I get that too. But this would all be a whole lot easier, and it would be much better practice for both educators and kids if we were focused on the right thing. Now, that’s the heat of the moment part of educator frustration these days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s a lot of reasons that educators should be frustrated these days. Um, I think we’ve made it a lot harder to be an educator over the last two to three decades, and yes, high-stakes testing, I’m staring at you, but that is not the only thing that has made it harder to be an educator. I’ve had many educators say to me, “They’ve taken all the humanity out of my job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> They’ve turned me into a test prep robot.” Um, zero tolerance policies, um, made it more difficult for me to find out what’s really going on with a kid because zero tolerance policies just tightened the vice grip and gave us an algorithm for applying consequences to certain behaviors. Um, we’ve made a lot of things harder on educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Let there be no doubt they aren’t paid anywhere nearly enough. Um, they don’t have time. So there’s a baseline level of frustration for a lot of educators these days. They often don’t feel safe in their classrooms. Um, I find that when we implement this model, it’s not just the frustration of kids that subside, it’s the frustration of educators as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Although I will say this: there’s nothing about this model that will help educators get paid what they deserve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that is the, a huge goal for so many people in order to better serve students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>we’re going to take a short break. We’ll be back with our guest Ross Greene, right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung: \u003c/strong>So, you know, I’ve heard a lot of educators say, “Meet them where they’re at,” or, you know, a version of this is, “Teach the kid you have.” Um, but that’s not happening at a wide scale. Um, is it really hard to implement? Is it, uh, like what is it about schools that make it challenging to get to that point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> You know, one of the other big focal points of the book is, um, the concept of developmental variability, which I don’t hear people talking about enough, especially in schools, but anywhere really. Um, developmental variability basically says what’s walking in the door is a bunch of individual differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Developmental variability is just a fanciv- fancy way of saying every kid is different, and let there be no doubt that is what’s walking in every classroom. We’ve done kids and educators a tremendous disservice by saying, “Even with all that developmental variability, you gotta get every kid over the same line by the end of the school year.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> How ludicrous, and educators told us that was ludicrous 30 years ago, and it’s just as ludicrous now. One of the points I make in the book is that every kid should be their own reference point. Teachers should feel free to have every kid be their own reference point for progress. That tells you that there is no line that everybody has to get over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> There’s no line. There’s just making sure that every student makes as much progress relative to where they started at the beginning in every school year, and we need to free teachers up to be able to do that. Um, that’s what differentiated instruction is about. That’s what personalized learning is about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, those things frequently don’t embed themselves into our practice. Every kid is their own reference point. The goal of good teaching is defined as meeting every kid where they’re at. Um, we need to free teachers up to be able to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> You know, one thing that I thought was really interesting about your book is, I, I think this is interesting because teachers are asked to do so much, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> They are, in many cases, social workers. Sometimes they’re stand-ins for parents. They’re just doing more and more all the time, and what you write is that you don’t want teachers to be diagnosing, to look at behavior and diagnose behavior. Um, can you tell me why that is? And, and I ask because there is so much emphasis on the behavior side of interacting with students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> So why, why do you want teachers to, you know, not act in that way?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Well, because diagnoses don’t really tell you very much. Um, not very much that you don’t already know. Diagnoses are sometimes the gateway for a kid to get services. Diagnosis can sometimes be the gateway for a kid to get funding for those services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I’m a mental health professional, and I don’t find that diagnoses give me much useful information about a kid. Um, what gives me the useful information? What skills this kid is struggling with and what expectations this kid is having difficulty reliably meeting, and I get that information from the assessment of skills and unsolved problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> Here’s a, um, I was speaking at a, uh, autism conference in Denmark pre-COVID, and a mother in my audience raised her hand very tentatively and said, “Yeah, but I found my daughter’s autism diagnosis to be very useful.” I said, “That’s good.” Then she thought about it for a second, and she said, “But I think what you’re saying-” “Is that my daughter’s autism diagnosis really doesn’t tell me anything about her specific skills or the specific expectations she’s having difficulty meeting.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> I said, “Right.” She thought about it a little bit more, and then she said, “And I think what you’re saying is that once I identify my daughter’s skills and unsolved problems, I’m going to find that I have information that is far more useful than her psychiatric diagnosis.” I said, “Probably.” Um, focusing on diagnoses focuses on, makes us focus on behavior, because if we look at the diagnostic criteria for the vast majority of childhood psychiatric disorders, what we’re going to find is a long list of behaviors, frustration responses, distress responses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> So long as we’re focused on the behavior, we’re gonna be late every time, because behavior occurs after a kid is already having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. We’ve been waiting for behavior to occur. We need to start anticipating, identifying, and solving problems instead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ross Greene:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me to do this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ki Sung:\u003c/strong> Dr. Ross Greene is the author of the recently published book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He’s also the author of other books, including The Explosive Child and Lost at School, and is the founding director of Lives in the Balance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The MindShift team includes me, Ki Sung, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo and Marnette Federis. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is our head of podcasts and Ethan Toven Lindsey is our editor in chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For 30 years, Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa has relied on AmeriCorps services to support their students that need extra help. But when federal funding was cut, and later reinstated, that programming stalled, leaving some students behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this episode, principal Nina Craig explains how the loss of tutors affected instruction and student relationships, while new AmeriCorps members, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli, describe stepping into classrooms with limited time and resources. We learn how even a few missed months of literacy support reduces how many students can be served.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1557384124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marlena Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Marlena Jackson Rotondo. It’s almost Winter break at Bellevue Elementary in Santa Rosa, California, and tutoring sessions for the school year have just begun. The schools to AmeriCorps tutors have gone through a crash course of training to prepare for the reading and writing support they’ll provide for the rest of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>AmeriCorps is an independent government agency whose volunteer members provide educational support and services to schools across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>On this morning, a small group of fourth graders reluctantly file into the room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>They’ve been pulled out of their classroom to spend 30 minutes with the tutors, Maya Nurse and Elena Zeoli.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maya has the students get straight to work reading a story out loud from a workbook In unison.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> We’re gonna start with our choral style of reading today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Ready? Go!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>All reading:\u003c/strong> My mother says to me, I choose a pretty paper fan with a picture of leaves and fireflies. I will keep my fan forever. When I grow up I will look at it and remember this night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The tutors stop the students every couple of sentences to ask about vocabulary in the text.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So what happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> What unexpectedly happened? The wet… they were warned about the weather. They thought the waves were only gonna get to how tall? Do you remember from the first page? Student: mmmm….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The students seem timid, and when they do speak up, it’s very quiet. And sometimes the students don’t answer the questions at all, but Maya and Elena, unfazed by the silence, move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is normal student behavior for the first week of tutoring at Bellevue Elementary, but what isn’t normal is that the first week of tutoring has been delayed this year by more than two months. Tutoring was supposed to start in early fall. Last April, all AmeriCorps funding was terminated by the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> This ended an almost three decade long collaboration between Bellevue Elementary and AmeriCorps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cuts happened immediately and without explanation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> It was shocking how quickly it happened. Um, uh, literally felt like overnight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> so it kind of felt like the rug was pulled out from us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> That’s Nina Craig Bellevue, elementary’s principal of 10 years. Before that, she was a fifth grade teacher and she recalls working with AmeriCorps members then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> As a classroom teacher I remember them coming into my room and working with some of my students and having that partnership as a teacher\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And because the AmeriCorps members were such an integral part of the school community, the cuts were difficult for Bellevue students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> The relationship with the kids that was established and for the kids to all of a sudden have these people gone that are such a vital part of our school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> was really sad and really hard to explain, because they really do become a part of our school culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong> Through lawsuits. AmeriCorps funding cuts were reversed in June of last year, but by that time, schools like Bellevue Elementary were already behind for the next school year’s cycle of tutoring. Some schools across the district opted not to continue with tutoring and mentoring support from AmeriCorps members for the next school year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> This is because they had to make decisions about their funding and without the certainty of AmeriCorps services, they had to go without. And because programming was delayed, Bellevue students didn’t start tutoring until December instead of October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> there hasn’t been any tutoring offered for our third through sixth grade students until now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> So without AmeriCorps, those students aren’t receiving any type of tutoring or intervention. And unless the teacher’s able to carve out time within their day to provide that,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> AmeriCorps members provide one of Bellevue elementary’s only forms of tier two support. That’s targeted support in a small group setting. In this case, it helps students who are struggling with reading.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> In years past, we’ve had literacy paraprofessionals that could support our tier two. Um, however, with budget cuts, this is our first year without having them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> And so, um, we have one instructional aide. For the entire school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> But yeah, we’re very limited.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The two AmeriCorps tutors contribute greatly to Bellevue’s tier two manpower, but it’s still not enough. The school reduced the kindergarten day by one and a half hours so that kindergarten teachers could provide extra support for Bellevue’s first and second grade classrooms. On short notice, and with no wiggle room in their budget.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Bellevue Elementary had to make some hard choices. We’ll find out how they’re doing right after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>***Midroll Break***\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I visited Bellevue Elementary back in December, I spoke with Fonzi, a fourth grader, receiving small group literacy tutoring for 30 minutes per day, four days per week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi: \u003c/strong>Dog Man and then I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fonzi’s telling me about the books he likes to read at home.,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What was that one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> I Survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> What’s that one about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> It’s um, there’s like different books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Fonzi:\u003c/strong> There’s, um, a Titanic book that, um, sunk in the ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> So you read about different survival stories? Whoa, that’s pretty cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> He feels like there’s less reading time when he’s in his classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> The things that are different is, um, we don’t like read a lot of books,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But when he’s in his tutoring sessions, reading time, one of his favorite things to do, is extended\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> At AR time, we um, read, we read books for 15 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi is part of a small group of fourth grade students who have been identified as needing extra support with reading. During a normal year, there’s enough time for two groups of students to cycle through tutoring support from AmeriCorps members. But this year, since tutoring at Bellevue started late, AmeriCorps members only have time to help half of the students that they normally would.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> At sites like Bellevue, the AmeriCorps tutors have become a staple in the school community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nina Craig:\u003c/strong> There’s so many ways AmeriCorps impacts because of the tutoring, the recess playtime, the mentoring. It’s so much connection. You guys probably know more of the kids’ names than I do, um, at this point. And you just started\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And for Maya and Elena who are just starting their careers, the program offers them a glimpse into their professional future\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I know I want to do a job where I’m helping people and so I thought this was a great opportunity to, yeah, like, get some real life experience where I’m like serving others and I’m thinking of maybe doing something with social work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The opportunity to work with students in a school setting also offered Maya something new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I’ve never worked with kids, and so I was kind of like, I feel like I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, I don’t know if I..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> …If I can do this, at first, you know, I was a little timid, but then you kind of just jump in and, um, you start connecting with the kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>When I spoke with the tutoring pair back in December, Elena was already feeling optimistic about her future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> So far this job I feel extremely passionate about, which is, it’s just really nice waking up in the morning and I, I wake up early, like I wake up before my alarm clock ’cause I’m just excited to come to the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> A couple months later, Maya and Elena felt comfortable in their roles,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> I just like know what I’m doing a little more. I kinda have a sense of like, we have a daily routine. I have really like good relationships with students now, so I’m like so excited to see them every day and they’re excited to see me and yeah, it’s great. It’s really good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> And the AmeriCorps tutors have also noticed improvements in their students as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> One of my students in sixth grade, in one of his tests, he was and like the 26th percentile for reading in like November. And now he is like in the 42nd percentile and I’m like, whoa, that’s so like rewarding and exciting that he’s like doing so much better and able to do that on his own now, like do it more on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> But the reality of having to work within the school’s limited resources has also sunk in for Maya.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> Sometimes also it’s like really hard to see like how some students struggle so much in school or like, you know, and I can only do so much and help them so much in that 30 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maya Nurse:\u003c/strong> yeah, just doing the best you can every day with what you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> Cat was going to wait the cat, and then this could change to hundreds of bugs in one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> He called his keys and…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>I walked into the tutoring classroom in February.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> It felt like a transformed space with students who were relaxed and eager to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Elena had also noticed a difference in her students too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elena Zeoli:\u003c/strong> I feel like they’re a lot more confident in answering questions and what to write down. So I feel like that’s. That’s like the biggest difference I’ve seen is like their confidence in what they’re writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>ambi:\u003c/strong> So the door, what’s the door? Who does he know? What’s the door? It’s D, the OOR. Yeah. I thought it was E-D-O-O-O-R-H. What? All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Fonzi has also gained confidence in his reading abilities since December. He told me he’s reading three to four books a day and even tackling some chapter books.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> When I first came in and reading groups, um, we started reading books and stuff and I kind of got into it and I started reading books every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> The benefits of extra reading support provided by the AmeriCorps tutors at school has extended into Fonzie’s home life as well. He and his siblings made up a reading game that they like to play at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Fonzi:\u003c/strong> We guess, like, the book that they have. They don’t show the covers. And we, guess, and then if we get it right, the people that have the book that the people say, they’re eliminated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Even though there won’t be enough time to bring in another group of fourth graders for tutoring this school year, Elena and Maya look forward to the rest of their time with the students that they are able to help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo:\u003c/strong> Thank you to Bellevue Elementary’s faculty and staff who contributed their time to make this episode possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>The MindShift team includes me, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Nimah Gobir, and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer. Jen Chien is head of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is KQED’s, editor-in-chief. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Mindshift is supported in part by the generosity of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED, some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio artists. San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jackson-Retondo: \u003c/strong>Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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