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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 22 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The Idiot,” a new podcast from Serial and New York Times opinion columnist M. Gessen, shares the story of Gessen’s own cousin, Allen, who went to prison for trying to have his ex-wife killed. The podcast asks how we reckon with personal beliefs about justice and punishment when applied to our own family: Gessen, a critic of the prison system, was shocked to find themself rooting for the prosecution during Allen’s trial. It also explores Gessen’s own complicated feelings about maintaining a relationship with Allen and their family’s range of responses to his crime. Gessen joins us, and we hear from you: Has a relative’s actions made you confront hard truths about yourself, your family and your strongest beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"152\" data-end=\"201\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"152\" data-end=\"165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"177\" data-end=\"184\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"203\" data-end=\"558\">M. Gessen is known for their incisive writing on autocracies, including Putin’s Russia, political repression and state terror in the U.S., and violations of rights. But their latest project is a more personal one: a serialized podcast exploring a crime their cousin Allen committed—trying to hire someone to kill his ex-wife, the mother of his children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"560\" data-end=\"802\">Allen is now serving a 10-year prison sentence, and Gessen’s podcast series explores how he could commit such an unthinkable act, as well as the range of reactions from their family members—and their own capacity for empathy and compassion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"804\" data-end=\"909\">Listeners, have you had a relative do a terrible thing? What effect did it have on you and your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"911\" data-end=\"1052\">Gessen’s podcast is called \u003cem data-start=\"938\" data-end=\"949\">The Idiot\u003c/em>. And M. Gessen joins me now. A note: this conversation may contain spoilers. Em, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1042\" data-end=\"1049\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1054\" data-end=\"1104\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1054\" data-end=\"1068\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1106\" data-end=\"1361\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1106\" data-end=\"1119\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I really appreciated the way your podcast explores, so deeply, the complicated, rippling effects of a terrible act by a family member. What made you want to turn your reporter’s lens and practice on this particular incident in your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1363\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1363\" data-end=\"1377\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Well, the simple answer is that it happened to my family. And when something like that happens, it’s one of those events where you wake up in the morning, and for a second you don’t remember—and then you remember. Right? You remember that you’re waking up into a world in which Allen took out a hit on his ex-wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1847\">It’s a really hard thing to come to terms with, even though—as I make clear in the very first episode of the podcast—I never even liked Allen. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1849\" data-end=\"1954\">And yet, the effect of that happening in the family was really profound. I found it very destabilizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1956\" data-end=\"2036\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1956\" data-end=\"1969\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you say your family—it “snapped,” something like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2038\" data-end=\"2267\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2038\" data-end=\"2052\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> It snapped, yeah. At the very beginning of the podcast, I describe our family as elastic. And this is largely thanks to my father, who has a very expansive idea of family—he includes people, really takes them in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2721\">He’s kept up relationships with my exes, and all the kids who come into his orbit are like his kids. So when Allen—this isn’t quite a spoiler—showed up in the United States a couple of years before his arrest, with his 5-year-old son, whom he had taken from Russia without his ex-wife’s knowledge or permission, my father didn’t exactly throw his arms around them, but he included them—my cousin, his son, and Allen’s mother, who also came with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2723\" data-end=\"2810\">For a couple of years, they were very much a part of the family. And then it snapped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2812\" data-end=\"3064\">And going back to your question: I’m a journalist. That’s what I know how to do. I’ve found that in difficult moments, it helps me to use my professional skills—to ask lots of questions of lots of people—to make sense of things. So that’s what I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3166\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3079\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You say you didn’t even really like Allen. Who was he to you before the crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3168\" data-end=\"3278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3168\" data-end=\"3182\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> In the podcast, I describe him as a buffoon—a pompous ass, a clown. Not much love lost there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3280\" data-end=\"3409\">Although, spoiler alert, once we started talking—when he was already in prison—I developed empathy for him, which surprised me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3411\" data-end=\"3592\">But before that, I saw him as a certain type: someone who calls himself an “international businessman,” probably very impressive to some people, but not so much to his own family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3594\" data-end=\"3898\">At one point, he worked as a consultant with Israeli businesses providing security for mines in Central Africa—working with former Israeli soldiers. Basically, all the things I think are terrible in the world, kind of concentrated in one place and associated with my cousin Allen. That’s how I saw him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3900\" data-end=\"4062\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3900\" data-end=\"3913\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And then in 2022, he’s arrested for taking out a hit on his ex-wife. And the person he tried to hire ended up being an undercover FBI agent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4064\" data-end=\"4257\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4064\" data-end=\"4078\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Hence the title of the series—\u003cem data-start=\"4109\" data-end=\"4120\">The Idiot\u003c/em>. But also, thank God, right? Thank God he hired an undercover FBI agent and not an actual killer. Everybody is alive to tell the tale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4259\" data-end=\"4446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4259\" data-end=\"4272\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I actually have a clip of Allen’s ex-wife, the mother of his two children, Priscilla, describing her reaction to learning she was the target of a hit. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4448\" data-end=\"4854\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4448\" data-end=\"4469\">Priscilla (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>And then the girl told me—she was like, “This is going to be a bit shocking, but he hired somebody to kill you.” You know, it’s—you know, when you run water through a sieve, that’s how I felt like I was receiving the information. It came in and went out. I didn’t understand it. I couldn’t put all that information together in one sentence and make it make sense: Allen, murder, me.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4856\" data-end=\"5078\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4856\" data-end=\"4869\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s a clip from the podcast \u003cem data-start=\"4901\" data-end=\"4912\">The Idiot\u003c/em> by my guest, M. Gessen, an opinion columnist for \u003cem data-start=\"4962\" data-end=\"4982\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. When I heard that moment, it really stayed with me—it was such a vivid description of shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5080\" data-end=\"5257\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5080\" data-end=\"5094\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that image—water running through a sieve. I think we’ve all experienced that moment when you’re receiving information and you just can’t absorb it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5259\" data-end=\"5279\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5259\" data-end=\"5272\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5281\" data-end=\"5463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5281\" data-end=\"5295\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> And imagine—when she says “the girl,” she’s referring to an FBI agent who came to her apartment at 6:30 in the morning and said, “Your ex-husband was just arrested.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5465\" data-end=\"5554\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5465\" data-end=\"5478\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. For Allen’s mother, the initial reaction sounds like it was denial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5556\" data-end=\"5697\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5556\" data-end=\"5570\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> That’s a complicated topic. I think she was in denial—and I think she still is. She maintains that he was framed by the FBI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5699\" data-end=\"5886\">It’s not entirely wrong—he was technically, I would say, entrapped. But the thing about entrapment is that it’s not always a sound legal defense, and it’s certainly not a moral defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5888\" data-end=\"6202\">The undercover agent may have offered him the solution, but Allen very happily embraced it. When I went to the trial in San Francisco—he was arrested in Massachusetts, but the trial was in San Francisco because the FBI agent was based there—I didn’t expect to hear evidence that was so overwhelmingly convincing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6204\" data-end=\"6430\">He was on tape saying yes over and over again. The agent had to make it clear it wasn’t a misunderstanding, that Allen had multiple opportunities to back out. And eight or nine times, he says, “Yes, I really want this done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6432\" data-end=\"6608\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6432\" data-end=\"6445\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it was striking for you to hear that—was that because it’s a family member, or because of your own skepticism about the criminal justice system and the FBI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6610\" data-end=\"6840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6610\" data-end=\"6624\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Both. By the time of the trial—almost a year after his arrest—I think many in my family were hoping something might emerge that would make it seem less bad. Not that he was innocent, but maybe not quite so guilty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6842\" data-end=\"6972\">I don’t know that I personally held onto that hope, but I felt my father’s heartbreak at realizing how decisively guilty he was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6974\" data-end=\"7174\">And yes, I am skeptical of the FBI. I wrote a book about the Boston Marathon bombing and attended those trials. I’m familiar with how the FBI investigates terrorism and how common entrapment can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7176\" data-end=\"7342\">I’ve heard recordings where agents clearly coax people into actions they might never have taken. But this wasn’t like that. This was clearly something Allen wanted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7344\" data-end=\"7562\">At one point, when the prosecutor was questioning him—Allen had the bad sense to take the stand—I found myself rooting for the prosecutor, thinking, “You go, girl.” And that’s not a position I usually find myself in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7564\" data-end=\"7635\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7564\" data-end=\"7577\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think part of that was anger—that he was family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7637\" data-end=\"7774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7637\" data-end=\"7651\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. My dislike of him played a role. I couldn’t access the kind of empathy I usually bring into a courtroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7776\" data-end=\"7917\">Normally, I’d think: this person probably has a complicated history—trauma, abuse, something that shaped them. Those things are often true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7919\" data-end=\"8074\">But I didn’t have that instinct here. It actually took talking to Allen to understand what was going on with him—not to justify it, but to understand it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8076\" data-end=\"8323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8076\" data-end=\"8089\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about a new podcast from Serial Productions and \u003cem data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8172\">The New York Times\u003c/em> opinion columnist M. Gessen called \u003cem data-start=\"8208\" data-end=\"8219\">The Idiot\u003c/em>, which tells the story of Gessen’s cousin Allen, now in prison for trying to have his ex-wife killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8325\" data-end=\"8552\">Listeners, have you had a family member do something terrible that changed you, your family, or the way you see the world? What reactions did your family have? Have you stayed connected with them while they were incarcerated?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8554\" data-end=\"8632\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8568\" data-end=\"8582\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on social media, or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8634\" data-end=\"8669\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 22 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The Idiot,” a new podcast from Serial and New York Times opinion columnist M. Gessen, shares the story of Gessen’s own cousin, Allen, who went to prison for trying to have his ex-wife killed. The podcast asks how we reckon with personal beliefs about justice and punishment when applied to our own family: Gessen, a critic of the prison system, was shocked to find themself rooting for the prosecution during Allen’s trial. It also explores Gessen’s own complicated feelings about maintaining a relationship with Allen and their family’s range of responses to his crime. Gessen joins us, and we hear from you: Has a relative’s actions made you confront hard truths about yourself, your family and your strongest beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"152\" data-end=\"201\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"152\" data-end=\"165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"177\" data-end=\"184\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"203\" data-end=\"558\">M. Gessen is known for their incisive writing on autocracies, including Putin’s Russia, political repression and state terror in the U.S., and violations of rights. But their latest project is a more personal one: a serialized podcast exploring a crime their cousin Allen committed—trying to hire someone to kill his ex-wife, the mother of his children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"560\" data-end=\"802\">Allen is now serving a 10-year prison sentence, and Gessen’s podcast series explores how he could commit such an unthinkable act, as well as the range of reactions from their family members—and their own capacity for empathy and compassion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"804\" data-end=\"909\">Listeners, have you had a relative do a terrible thing? What effect did it have on you and your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"911\" data-end=\"1052\">Gessen’s podcast is called \u003cem data-start=\"938\" data-end=\"949\">The Idiot\u003c/em>. And M. Gessen joins me now. A note: this conversation may contain spoilers. Em, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1042\" data-end=\"1049\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1054\" data-end=\"1104\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1054\" data-end=\"1068\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1106\" data-end=\"1361\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1106\" data-end=\"1119\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I really appreciated the way your podcast explores, so deeply, the complicated, rippling effects of a terrible act by a family member. What made you want to turn your reporter’s lens and practice on this particular incident in your family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1363\" data-end=\"1694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1363\" data-end=\"1377\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Well, the simple answer is that it happened to my family. And when something like that happens, it’s one of those events where you wake up in the morning, and for a second you don’t remember—and then you remember. Right? You remember that you’re waking up into a world in which Allen took out a hit on his ex-wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1696\" data-end=\"1847\">It’s a really hard thing to come to terms with, even though—as I make clear in the very first episode of the podcast—I never even liked Allen. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1849\" data-end=\"1954\">And yet, the effect of that happening in the family was really profound. I found it very destabilizing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1956\" data-end=\"2036\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1956\" data-end=\"1969\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And you say your family—it “snapped,” something like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2038\" data-end=\"2267\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2038\" data-end=\"2052\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> It snapped, yeah. At the very beginning of the podcast, I describe our family as elastic. And this is largely thanks to my father, who has a very expansive idea of family—he includes people, really takes them in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2721\">He’s kept up relationships with my exes, and all the kids who come into his orbit are like his kids. So when Allen—this isn’t quite a spoiler—showed up in the United States a couple of years before his arrest, with his 5-year-old son, whom he had taken from Russia without his ex-wife’s knowledge or permission, my father didn’t exactly throw his arms around them, but he included them—my cousin, his son, and Allen’s mother, who also came with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2723\" data-end=\"2810\">For a couple of years, they were very much a part of the family. And then it snapped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2812\" data-end=\"3064\">And going back to your question: I’m a journalist. That’s what I know how to do. I’ve found that in difficult moments, it helps me to use my professional skills—to ask lots of questions of lots of people—to make sense of things. So that’s what I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3166\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3079\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You say you didn’t even really like Allen. Who was he to you before the crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3168\" data-end=\"3278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3168\" data-end=\"3182\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> In the podcast, I describe him as a buffoon—a pompous ass, a clown. Not much love lost there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3280\" data-end=\"3409\">Although, spoiler alert, once we started talking—when he was already in prison—I developed empathy for him, which surprised me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3411\" data-end=\"3592\">But before that, I saw him as a certain type: someone who calls himself an “international businessman,” probably very impressive to some people, but not so much to his own family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3594\" data-end=\"3898\">At one point, he worked as a consultant with Israeli businesses providing security for mines in Central Africa—working with former Israeli soldiers. Basically, all the things I think are terrible in the world, kind of concentrated in one place and associated with my cousin Allen. That’s how I saw him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3900\" data-end=\"4062\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3900\" data-end=\"3913\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And then in 2022, he’s arrested for taking out a hit on his ex-wife. And the person he tried to hire ended up being an undercover FBI agent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4064\" data-end=\"4257\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4064\" data-end=\"4078\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Hence the title of the series—\u003cem data-start=\"4109\" data-end=\"4120\">The Idiot\u003c/em>. But also, thank God, right? Thank God he hired an undercover FBI agent and not an actual killer. Everybody is alive to tell the tale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4259\" data-end=\"4446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4259\" data-end=\"4272\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I actually have a clip of Allen’s ex-wife, the mother of his two children, Priscilla, describing her reaction to learning she was the target of a hit. Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4448\" data-end=\"4854\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4448\" data-end=\"4469\">Priscilla (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>And then the girl told me—she was like, “This is going to be a bit shocking, but he hired somebody to kill you.” You know, it’s—you know, when you run water through a sieve, that’s how I felt like I was receiving the information. It came in and went out. I didn’t understand it. I couldn’t put all that information together in one sentence and make it make sense: Allen, murder, me.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4856\" data-end=\"5078\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4856\" data-end=\"4869\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s a clip from the podcast \u003cem data-start=\"4901\" data-end=\"4912\">The Idiot\u003c/em> by my guest, M. Gessen, an opinion columnist for \u003cem data-start=\"4962\" data-end=\"4982\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. When I heard that moment, it really stayed with me—it was such a vivid description of shock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5080\" data-end=\"5257\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5080\" data-end=\"5094\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I love that image—water running through a sieve. I think we’ve all experienced that moment when you’re receiving information and you just can’t absorb it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5259\" data-end=\"5279\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5259\" data-end=\"5272\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5281\" data-end=\"5463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5281\" data-end=\"5295\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> And imagine—when she says “the girl,” she’s referring to an FBI agent who came to her apartment at 6:30 in the morning and said, “Your ex-husband was just arrested.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5465\" data-end=\"5554\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5465\" data-end=\"5478\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. For Allen’s mother, the initial reaction sounds like it was denial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5556\" data-end=\"5697\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5556\" data-end=\"5570\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> That’s a complicated topic. I think she was in denial—and I think she still is. She maintains that he was framed by the FBI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5699\" data-end=\"5886\">It’s not entirely wrong—he was technically, I would say, entrapped. But the thing about entrapment is that it’s not always a sound legal defense, and it’s certainly not a moral defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5888\" data-end=\"6202\">The undercover agent may have offered him the solution, but Allen very happily embraced it. When I went to the trial in San Francisco—he was arrested in Massachusetts, but the trial was in San Francisco because the FBI agent was based there—I didn’t expect to hear evidence that was so overwhelmingly convincing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6204\" data-end=\"6430\">He was on tape saying yes over and over again. The agent had to make it clear it wasn’t a misunderstanding, that Allen had multiple opportunities to back out. And eight or nine times, he says, “Yes, I really want this done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6432\" data-end=\"6608\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6432\" data-end=\"6445\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And it was striking for you to hear that—was that because it’s a family member, or because of your own skepticism about the criminal justice system and the FBI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6610\" data-end=\"6840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6610\" data-end=\"6624\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Both. By the time of the trial—almost a year after his arrest—I think many in my family were hoping something might emerge that would make it seem less bad. Not that he was innocent, but maybe not quite so guilty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6842\" data-end=\"6972\">I don’t know that I personally held onto that hope, but I felt my father’s heartbreak at realizing how decisively guilty he was.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6974\" data-end=\"7174\">And yes, I am skeptical of the FBI. I wrote a book about the Boston Marathon bombing and attended those trials. I’m familiar with how the FBI investigates terrorism and how common entrapment can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7176\" data-end=\"7342\">I’ve heard recordings where agents clearly coax people into actions they might never have taken. But this wasn’t like that. This was clearly something Allen wanted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7344\" data-end=\"7562\">At one point, when the prosecutor was questioning him—Allen had the bad sense to take the stand—I found myself rooting for the prosecutor, thinking, “You go, girl.” And that’s not a position I usually find myself in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7564\" data-end=\"7635\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7564\" data-end=\"7577\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Do you think part of that was anger—that he was family?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7637\" data-end=\"7774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7637\" data-end=\"7651\">M. Gessen:\u003c/strong> Oh, absolutely. My dislike of him played a role. I couldn’t access the kind of empathy I usually bring into a courtroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7776\" data-end=\"7917\">Normally, I’d think: this person probably has a complicated history—trauma, abuse, something that shaped them. Those things are often true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7919\" data-end=\"8074\">But I didn’t have that instinct here. It actually took talking to Allen to understand what was going on with him—not to justify it, but to understand it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8076\" data-end=\"8323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8076\" data-end=\"8089\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about a new podcast from Serial Productions and \u003cem data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8172\">The New York Times\u003c/em> opinion columnist M. Gessen called \u003cem data-start=\"8208\" data-end=\"8219\">The Idiot\u003c/em>, which tells the story of Gessen’s cousin Allen, now in prison for trying to have his ex-wife killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8325\" data-end=\"8552\">Listeners, have you had a family member do something terrible that changed you, your family, or the way you see the world? What reactions did your family have? Have you stayed connected with them while they were incarcerated?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8554\" data-end=\"8632\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8568\" data-end=\"8582\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on social media, or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8634\" data-end=\"8669\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-psychological-toll-of-trumps-immigration-policies-on-bay-area-latinos",
"title": "The Psychological Toll of Trump’s Immigration Policies on Bay Area Latinos",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 22 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration’s crackdown on immigration has many people feeling self-conscious about speaking Spanish in public or being recognized as Latino. Last year’s Supreme Court ruling allowing immigration enforcement agents to question anyone based on their appearance and speech gave more fuel to the administration crackdown that has disproportionately targeted Latino communities. Now, many U.S. citizens keep their passports on them and question whether they are presenting as “American” enough. We examine the cultural, psychological and societal impacts of Trump’s immigration policies and how Latinos in the Bay Area are responding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"213\" data-end=\"276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"213\" data-end=\"233\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"245\" data-end=\"252\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"278\" data-end=\"1202\">In a concurring opinion in the case \u003cem data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"339\">Noam v. Vasquez Perdomo\u003c/em>, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote, “Whether an officer has reasonable suspicion depends on the totality of the circumstances. Here, those circumstances include that there is an extremely high number and percentage of illegal immigrants in the Los Angeles area; that those individuals tend to gather in certain locations to seek daily work; that those individuals often work in certain kinds of jobs, such as day labor, landscaping, agriculture, and construction, that do not require paperwork and are therefore especially attractive to illegal immigrants; and that many of those illegally in the Los Angeles area come from Mexico or Central America and do not speak much English. To be clear, apparent ethnicity alone cannot furnish reasonable suspicion under this Court’s case law regarding immigration stops. However, it can be a relevant factor.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1204\" data-end=\"1683\">And with that, apparent ethnicity became an explicitly legally sanctioned relevant factor in immigration enforcement. In practice, this kind of thing had long gone on, but now the Kavanaugh standard became formalized. If you were speaking Spanish near a Home Depot, that was reasonable suspicion. If you had brown skin on a construction site, that was reasonable suspicion. If you were at a taco truck and ordered in fluent Spanish—hey, that might be reasonable suspicion, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1685\" data-end=\"1917\">Today, we’re talking about the cultural and identity impacts—not just of this ruling, but of the broader landscape of immigration enforcement and the white nationalist rhetoric that has swamped the right wing of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"2079\">Joining us this morning, we have Dr. Belinda Hernandez Arriaga, founder and chief executive officer of ALAS. She’s a licensed clinical social worker. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2111\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2324\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2154\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for coming on. We also have Tomás Jiménez, Joan B. Ford Professor of Sociology and director of the Institute for Advancing Just Societies. Welcome, Tomás.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2326\" data-end=\"2368\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2326\" data-end=\"2344\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2370\" data-end=\"2621\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2370\" data-end=\"2390\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Tomás, give us a little bit of context for this current moment. Do you think there is precedent in American history for the kind of—not just immigration enforcement, but also the rhetoric—that we’re seeing around immigrants?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2623\" data-end=\"2795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2623\" data-end=\"2641\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Well, there’s certainly precedent. I think what we’re seeing today is an extreme version of American identity that has been with us since our founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2797\" data-end=\"3103\">You can think of American identity as being like different sections of an orchestra. Some of those sections play louder than others at certain times. When leadership steps in and encourages one section to play really loudly—and right now, that’s the white nationalist section—it can overwhelm the others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3105\" data-end=\"3341\">But it’s important to keep in mind that there are other sections. There are sections of the orchestra that see American identity as more than just white nationalism—not as white nationalism at all—but rather as a nation of immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3343\" data-end=\"3646\">So I think what we’re seeing today in modern history is somewhat unprecedented in terms of how loudly the white nationalist section is playing, both in politics and policy. But it’s also important to keep in mind—and maybe we can get to this later—that there are other sections trying to play as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3648\" data-end=\"3776\">Still, we have not, in modern history—arguably ever—seen an enforcement effort that is as ferocious or as broad-based as this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3778\" data-end=\"4061\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3778\" data-end=\"3798\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And, you know, we’ve dealt a lot with the material impacts of this immigration enforcement, both in Los Angeles, Minneapolis, and other places. But what about the cultural impact of doing this? I mean, the way it makes it feel like this is a different America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4063\" data-end=\"4317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4063\" data-end=\"4081\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think this goes back to the point I made a second ago, which is that not only are there different versions of American identity, but our policies are not just telling us what we can and can’t do—they’re telling us who we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4319\" data-end=\"4635\">Right now, what I think Latinos in particular are feeling is a version of something they’ve actually felt for a long time. I’ve done some research on this that dates back 25 years, and even then, U.S.-born people of Mexican descent were worried that others would see them as illegal, undocumented, or unauthorized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4637\" data-end=\"4893\">That concern shows up sometimes in law enforcement contexts, but often in everyday social interactions—the association between being Latino and being undocumented. The Kavanaugh quote enshrines this, but that association has been with us for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4895\" data-end=\"5223\">When that version of the orchestra—the policy and politics version—is playing loudly, that association becomes more prominent, not only in the minds of everyday Americans, but also among Latinos themselves. They have to think about how they present themselves in everyday interactions and how to deflect potential assumptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5225\" data-end=\"5403\">And this is not to mention people who are themselves undocumented, who in a previous period might have been more willing to engage with institutions but are now hunkering down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5405\" data-end=\"5687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5405\" data-end=\"5425\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Belinda, your organization, ALAS, has served Half Moon Bay–based immigrants and farmworkers for years. As immigration enforcement and rhetoric have risen over the last decade, how has that changed the daily lives and culture of the people you work with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5888\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5719\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> Well, sadly to say, there has always been this permeating sense of fear in our community—a sense of isolation, and even societal pressure not to be civically engaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5890\" data-end=\"6087\">I’ve seen that for years in my work in mental health with children and families. I refer to it as “undocu-trauma,” or immigration trauma, which isn’t really recognized by the field of psychology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6089\" data-end=\"6322\">But now, what we’re seeing is a surge—an intensification of everyday fear. People are asking, “What’s going to happen if I go to the store? What if ICE is present?” These are everyday activities that people used to feel safe doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6324\" data-end=\"6534\">For example, schools used to be off-limits. Churches were sanctuaries. Those spaces are no longer guaranteed to be safe. What were once safe spaces for the immigrant community have, in many ways, been erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6536\" data-end=\"6745\">So there really is no safe space right now, and that’s where we’re seeing escalating fear. In my community, we’re seeing a rise in mental health needs and a growing demand for communal and emotional support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6747\" data-end=\"6964\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6747\" data-end=\"6767\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, what about you personally, Belinda? You’ve got a doctorate, you’re well established, you founded an organization. Do you feel some of these cultural pressures on your own identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6966\" data-end=\"7202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6966\" data-end=\"6996\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> I absolutely do. My experience is rooted in my own upbringing in South Texas and rural Texas, where I constantly had to question my identity—whether it was okay to speak Spanish or celebrate our culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7204\" data-end=\"7451\">I grew up in an environment where those things were not accepted, and minimizing our identity became a form of survival. That’s something my family has experienced across three generations—not because we wanted to, but because we felt we had to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7453\" data-end=\"7771\">Now, as I work in the community—as an advocate, working in the fields and in the trenches—I see similar fears resurfacing. We recently went to Minneapolis to work with children and families in schools that were targeted by ICE. Teachers were telling us that everyone has to be careful, that no one really feels safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7773\" data-end=\"8005\">So yes, I think this is a new moment. Even though I’ve experienced internalized fear and oppression growing up, I also had the privilege of citizenship. But now, there’s a broader, more pervasive fear affecting Latinos in general.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8007\" data-end=\"8037\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8007\" data-end=\"8027\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8039\" data-end=\"8209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8039\" data-end=\"8069\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> And while we are pushing back against it, we can’t deny that for many people, that fear is very real. I hear it from so many individuals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8211\" data-end=\"8465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8211\" data-end=\"8231\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, Tomás, one of the interesting things about this moment is that many of us grew up hearing stories from our families about people who stopped speaking Spanish or minimized their culture out of fear or a desire to assimilate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8467\" data-end=\"8617\">But we’re also coming out of a period where Latino culture was widely celebrated. And now it feels like we’re experiencing this incredible whiplash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8637\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> It certainly does. To build on what Belinda said—and your question—it’s important to remember that the Mexican-origin population has been immigrating to the United States for over a hundred years. Even before that, there was a smaller population in the Southwest when it was annexed by the United States in 1848.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8954\" data-end=\"9123\">The idea of being a “perpetual foreigner,” even for second-, third-, or fourth-generation individuals, is something people of Mexican descent have long contended with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9406\">If you talk to people who grew up in the 1940s and 1950s, they’ll tell you they tried to suppress their Latino or Mexican identity. That experience isn’t unique—it’s common across many immigrant groups, especially when there’s a narrow definition of what it means to be American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9408\" data-end=\"9581\">Then we move into the post-1960s period, which celebrates multiculturalism. And as you mentioned, Alexis, more recently we’ve seen a broader celebration of Latino culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9583\" data-end=\"9831\">What we’re seeing now does feel like a backlash—a return to earlier fears and behaviors. But it’s not an either/or situation. Those concerns never fully went away. Even during periods of cultural celebration, people still carried those anxieties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9833\" data-end=\"9958\">Again, it’s like different sections of the orchestra—different versions of identity—rising and falling in volume over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9960\" data-end=\"10015\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9960\" data-end=\"9980\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Levels of the spectrogram, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10017\" data-end=\"10310\">We’re talking about the cultural, psychological, and societal impacts of Trump’s immigration policies. We’re joined by Tomás Jiménez, professor of sociology at Stanford, and Dr. Belinda Hernandez Arriaga, founder and executive director of ALAS, which works with farmworkers in Half Moon Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10312\" data-end=\"10485\">We want to hear from you. Has the immigration crackdown changed the way you see your identity—as an American or as a person? Call us at 866-733-6786, email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10468\" data-end=\"10482\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10487\" data-end=\"10521\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 22 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration’s crackdown on immigration has many people feeling self-conscious about speaking Spanish in public or being recognized as Latino. Last year’s Supreme Court ruling allowing immigration enforcement agents to question anyone based on their appearance and speech gave more fuel to the administration crackdown that has disproportionately targeted Latino communities. Now, many U.S. citizens keep their passports on them and question whether they are presenting as “American” enough. We examine the cultural, psychological and societal impacts of Trump’s immigration policies and how Latinos in the Bay Area are responding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"213\" data-end=\"276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"213\" data-end=\"233\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"245\" data-end=\"252\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"278\" data-end=\"1202\">In a concurring opinion in the case \u003cem data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"339\">Noam v. Vasquez Perdomo\u003c/em>, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote, “Whether an officer has reasonable suspicion depends on the totality of the circumstances. Here, those circumstances include that there is an extremely high number and percentage of illegal immigrants in the Los Angeles area; that those individuals tend to gather in certain locations to seek daily work; that those individuals often work in certain kinds of jobs, such as day labor, landscaping, agriculture, and construction, that do not require paperwork and are therefore especially attractive to illegal immigrants; and that many of those illegally in the Los Angeles area come from Mexico or Central America and do not speak much English. To be clear, apparent ethnicity alone cannot furnish reasonable suspicion under this Court’s case law regarding immigration stops. However, it can be a relevant factor.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1204\" data-end=\"1683\">And with that, apparent ethnicity became an explicitly legally sanctioned relevant factor in immigration enforcement. In practice, this kind of thing had long gone on, but now the Kavanaugh standard became formalized. If you were speaking Spanish near a Home Depot, that was reasonable suspicion. If you had brown skin on a construction site, that was reasonable suspicion. If you were at a taco truck and ordered in fluent Spanish—hey, that might be reasonable suspicion, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1685\" data-end=\"1917\">Today, we’re talking about the cultural and identity impacts—not just of this ruling, but of the broader landscape of immigration enforcement and the white nationalist rhetoric that has swamped the right wing of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"2079\">Joining us this morning, we have Dr. Belinda Hernandez Arriaga, founder and chief executive officer of ALAS. She’s a licensed clinical social worker. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2111\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2324\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2154\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for coming on. We also have Tomás Jiménez, Joan B. Ford Professor of Sociology and director of the Institute for Advancing Just Societies. Welcome, Tomás.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2326\" data-end=\"2368\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2326\" data-end=\"2344\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2370\" data-end=\"2621\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2370\" data-end=\"2390\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Tomás, give us a little bit of context for this current moment. Do you think there is precedent in American history for the kind of—not just immigration enforcement, but also the rhetoric—that we’re seeing around immigrants?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2623\" data-end=\"2795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2623\" data-end=\"2641\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Well, there’s certainly precedent. I think what we’re seeing today is an extreme version of American identity that has been with us since our founding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2797\" data-end=\"3103\">You can think of American identity as being like different sections of an orchestra. Some of those sections play louder than others at certain times. When leadership steps in and encourages one section to play really loudly—and right now, that’s the white nationalist section—it can overwhelm the others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3105\" data-end=\"3341\">But it’s important to keep in mind that there are other sections. There are sections of the orchestra that see American identity as more than just white nationalism—not as white nationalism at all—but rather as a nation of immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3343\" data-end=\"3646\">So I think what we’re seeing today in modern history is somewhat unprecedented in terms of how loudly the white nationalist section is playing, both in politics and policy. But it’s also important to keep in mind—and maybe we can get to this later—that there are other sections trying to play as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3648\" data-end=\"3776\">Still, we have not, in modern history—arguably ever—seen an enforcement effort that is as ferocious or as broad-based as this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3778\" data-end=\"4061\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3778\" data-end=\"3798\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And, you know, we’ve dealt a lot with the material impacts of this immigration enforcement, both in Los Angeles, Minneapolis, and other places. But what about the cultural impact of doing this? I mean, the way it makes it feel like this is a different America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4063\" data-end=\"4317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4063\" data-end=\"4081\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think this goes back to the point I made a second ago, which is that not only are there different versions of American identity, but our policies are not just telling us what we can and can’t do—they’re telling us who we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4319\" data-end=\"4635\">Right now, what I think Latinos in particular are feeling is a version of something they’ve actually felt for a long time. I’ve done some research on this that dates back 25 years, and even then, U.S.-born people of Mexican descent were worried that others would see them as illegal, undocumented, or unauthorized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4637\" data-end=\"4893\">That concern shows up sometimes in law enforcement contexts, but often in everyday social interactions—the association between being Latino and being undocumented. The Kavanaugh quote enshrines this, but that association has been with us for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4895\" data-end=\"5223\">When that version of the orchestra—the policy and politics version—is playing loudly, that association becomes more prominent, not only in the minds of everyday Americans, but also among Latinos themselves. They have to think about how they present themselves in everyday interactions and how to deflect potential assumptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5225\" data-end=\"5403\">And this is not to mention people who are themselves undocumented, who in a previous period might have been more willing to engage with institutions but are now hunkering down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5405\" data-end=\"5687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5405\" data-end=\"5425\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Belinda, your organization, ALAS, has served Half Moon Bay–based immigrants and farmworkers for years. As immigration enforcement and rhetoric have risen over the last decade, how has that changed the daily lives and culture of the people you work with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5888\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5719\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> Well, sadly to say, there has always been this permeating sense of fear in our community—a sense of isolation, and even societal pressure not to be civically engaged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5890\" data-end=\"6087\">I’ve seen that for years in my work in mental health with children and families. I refer to it as “undocu-trauma,” or immigration trauma, which isn’t really recognized by the field of psychology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6089\" data-end=\"6322\">But now, what we’re seeing is a surge—an intensification of everyday fear. People are asking, “What’s going to happen if I go to the store? What if ICE is present?” These are everyday activities that people used to feel safe doing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6324\" data-end=\"6534\">For example, schools used to be off-limits. Churches were sanctuaries. Those spaces are no longer guaranteed to be safe. What were once safe spaces for the immigrant community have, in many ways, been erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6536\" data-end=\"6745\">So there really is no safe space right now, and that’s where we’re seeing escalating fear. In my community, we’re seeing a rise in mental health needs and a growing demand for communal and emotional support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6747\" data-end=\"6964\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6747\" data-end=\"6767\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, what about you personally, Belinda? You’ve got a doctorate, you’re well established, you founded an organization. Do you feel some of these cultural pressures on your own identity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6966\" data-end=\"7202\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6966\" data-end=\"6996\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> I absolutely do. My experience is rooted in my own upbringing in South Texas and rural Texas, where I constantly had to question my identity—whether it was okay to speak Spanish or celebrate our culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7204\" data-end=\"7451\">I grew up in an environment where those things were not accepted, and minimizing our identity became a form of survival. That’s something my family has experienced across three generations—not because we wanted to, but because we felt we had to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7453\" data-end=\"7771\">Now, as I work in the community—as an advocate, working in the fields and in the trenches—I see similar fears resurfacing. We recently went to Minneapolis to work with children and families in schools that were targeted by ICE. Teachers were telling us that everyone has to be careful, that no one really feels safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7773\" data-end=\"8005\">So yes, I think this is a new moment. Even though I’ve experienced internalized fear and oppression growing up, I also had the privilege of citizenship. But now, there’s a broader, more pervasive fear affecting Latinos in general.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8007\" data-end=\"8037\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8007\" data-end=\"8027\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8039\" data-end=\"8209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8039\" data-end=\"8069\">Belinda Hernandez Arriaga:\u003c/strong> And while we are pushing back against it, we can’t deny that for many people, that fear is very real. I hear it from so many individuals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8211\" data-end=\"8465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8211\" data-end=\"8231\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, Tomás, one of the interesting things about this moment is that many of us grew up hearing stories from our families about people who stopped speaking Spanish or minimized their culture out of fear or a desire to assimilate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8467\" data-end=\"8617\">But we’re also coming out of a period where Latino culture was widely celebrated. And now it feels like we’re experiencing this incredible whiplash.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8952\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8637\">Tomás Jiménez:\u003c/strong> It certainly does. To build on what Belinda said—and your question—it’s important to remember that the Mexican-origin population has been immigrating to the United States for over a hundred years. Even before that, there was a smaller population in the Southwest when it was annexed by the United States in 1848.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8954\" data-end=\"9123\">The idea of being a “perpetual foreigner,” even for second-, third-, or fourth-generation individuals, is something people of Mexican descent have long contended with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9406\">If you talk to people who grew up in the 1940s and 1950s, they’ll tell you they tried to suppress their Latino or Mexican identity. That experience isn’t unique—it’s common across many immigrant groups, especially when there’s a narrow definition of what it means to be American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9408\" data-end=\"9581\">Then we move into the post-1960s period, which celebrates multiculturalism. And as you mentioned, Alexis, more recently we’ve seen a broader celebration of Latino culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9583\" data-end=\"9831\">What we’re seeing now does feel like a backlash—a return to earlier fears and behaviors. But it’s not an either/or situation. Those concerns never fully went away. Even during periods of cultural celebration, people still carried those anxieties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9833\" data-end=\"9958\">Again, it’s like different sections of the orchestra—different versions of identity—rising and falling in volume over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9960\" data-end=\"10015\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9960\" data-end=\"9980\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Levels of the spectrogram, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10017\" data-end=\"10310\">We’re talking about the cultural, psychological, and societal impacts of Trump’s immigration policies. We’re joined by Tomás Jiménez, professor of sociology at Stanford, and Dr. Belinda Hernandez Arriaga, founder and executive director of ALAS, which works with farmworkers in Half Moon Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10312\" data-end=\"10485\">We want to hear from you. Has the immigration crackdown changed the way you see your identity—as an American or as a person? Call us at 866-733-6786, email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10468\" data-end=\"10482\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10487\" data-end=\"10521\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 21 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The San Francisco AI firm Anthropic has developed a new model that it says is too powerful to be released to the public. Called Mythos, Anthropic says it’s in a “different league” when it comes to identifying and exploiting cybersecurity vulnerabilities, and in the wrong hands could enable bad actors to unleash powerful cyberattacks. Anthropic is alerting governments and releasing a limited version called Claude Mythos Preview to about 40 tech companies (including some of its AI competitors) to find and fix their own security vulnerabilities. We look at how this next generation of AI could reshape digital security and policy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. It seems Anthropic and the Trump administration are talking again after the company angered the Pentagon for putting boundaries on the way its technology could be used. But fears over the capabilities of Anthropic’s new AI model, Claude Mythos, prompted the reengagement. The San Francisco company says Mythos can find and exploit weaknesses in systems faster than humans can address them, creating new opportunities for defense, but also new levels of opportunity for bad actors to launch cyberattacks on governments, hospitals, banks, and the power grid. Anthropic has held back on releasing its AI model publicly, but what happens when it does? How worried should we be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we put those questions and yours to cybersecurity expert Alex Stamos, a lecturer at Stanford and chief product officer at Corridor. Alex, thanks so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey. Thanks, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So can you just start by helping me understand what Mythos is capable of, as you understand it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Mythos is a model that Anthropic has not released publicly. They’ve provided it to a very small number of large companies to use privately, as well as to some very important open-source projects to use. So Anthropic has been doing work on open-source security for a little while. They’ve been working on the Linux kernel. They’ve been working on Firefox. So this isn’t totally new. But with this new model, what they announced is that they believe that it is a large step change from the capabilities that have existed in the past, that they’ve now been able to find thousands of vulnerabilities instead of just dozens or hundreds, and that they believe that Mythos has a level of capability that is well beyond even the best human testers. So what we’ve seen in the past is that these things are really good at finding bugs, and they’re much faster than humans. But now Mythos is even better than the best human security consultants and security engineers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I read that Anthropic was saying that it found holes in systems that have been scoured countless times and never found before. It’s that good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is. And from my perspective, the big change here actually started last year, probably with the release of Opus 4.5, which happened last November. That’s when we started to see these models really kind of at least pull even, or pull a little bit ahead of, the best human researchers in finding flaws in systems I’ve looked at over and over again. Nick Carlini, who’s a researcher at Anthropic, gave a talk at a conference earlier this year, a conference called Impromptu, where he showed a vulnerability in the Linux kernel. You know, the Linux kernel being the software that runs on billions of devices around the world. Every Android phone, lots and lots of embedded devices that run streetlights, cars, and many things that people don’t even think about actually run Linux. This software—the bug that it found—is older than a lot of my coworkers at the startup I work at. It’s 23 years old, older than almost all my students. And the code has been looked at by hundreds of engineers and probably by the people who find bugs and write exploits at pretty much every major government agency that does this in the United States, China, and Russia, because it’s in a part of the code that you would absolutely want to attack if you’re at the NSA, if you’re at China’s Ministry of State Security or the People’s Liberation Army. You would look here for a bug, and all those people missed it. And this was just Opus—it wasn’t Mythos. So these are models you can access right now from Anthropic. So if Mythos is that much better, then we are definitely entering a totally new era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I want to ask you about what that era could look like. So first, what you’re describing, I could see, on one hand, as an incredible tool to find bugs, holes, and issues that we have not seen before so that we can defend against them. So why is it scaring people so much?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s scaring people because the first step in attacking a system is finding flaws in that system. In the cybersecurity world, we use a term called the kill chain. This is a term we borrowed from the military. When the military uses it, it refers to discovering an asset, doing reconnaissance, and figuring out how to deliver a weapon on a target. In the cyber world, the kill chain involves reconnaissance, finding a flaw in a system used by a target, weaponizing that flaw, delivering the exploit, establishing command and control of the system, exploring the network, moving through it, and then doing whatever you want—whether that’s stealing data, shutting down a system, or encrypting it for ransom. One of the first steps is finding the flaw.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’ve seen is that AI is getting really good at that. At the same time, attackers have been exploring how to use AI to improve the other parts of the kill chain as well. That’s the other kind of research we’ve seen over the last year. Major AI companies, Anthropic and OpenAI, have released threat reports—building on earlier efforts from companies like Facebook and Google—showing how people use these platforms for malicious activity. Those reports show that advanced threat actors are using AI to automate other parts of the attack process, like exploring networks, breaking in, and establishing control channels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re seeing is attackers taking tasks that used to require human effort—and therefore had limits—and using AI to make them faster and cheaper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I imagine that our ability to patch or defend against these activities pales in comparison, or am I wrong? Do the patches exist, and are they easy to implement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is where AI can help. AI can find flaws, and it can also write patches. That’s the good news. That’s why Anthropic is providing Mythos to companies and open-source maintainers—not just to find bugs, but to fix them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re trying to do as an industry right now is fix vulnerabilities before adversaries can exploit them. There’s a race underway. The most advanced models—what we call foundation models, like those from Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google—are currently ahead of open-weight models, many of which are developed by Chinese companies. They’re about six to twelve months ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, if you use a model like Opus 4.7, GPT-5.4, or the latest Gemini models to do something malicious, you’re leaving logs on company servers, which can be accessed by law enforcement. That makes it risky for attackers. But once open-weight models catch up, attackers will be able to run them locally, without oversight. That’s when things get much more dangerous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Alex Stamos, chief product officer at Corridor and a lecturer at Stanford, about Mythos from Anthropic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, I want to invite you into the conversation. What are your questions about Mythos? How worried are you about it or other AI models that can assist and advance cyberattacks? What are your questions about how AI bug-finding works? Do you work in AI or IT? How are you preparing for AI-powered cyberattacks? Call us at 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786. You can also find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And just remind us why we all need to care about this—why we all have a stake in this race and in succeeding, because we have seen what cyberattacks can do. Can you remind us of the scale of disruption this could cause in our lives?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t want to be alarmist, but there are a lot of people working to mitigate risks to everyday users. That said, over the last three or four months, there has been a significant uptick in serious cyber incidents, even if they haven’t gotten a lot of coverage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some of that is tied to major geopolitical events, like the war in Iran. Iranian cyber actors have carried out significant attacks against American targets. They’ve breached organizations like Lockheed Martin and exposed communications from public figures like Kash Patel. But much of it is also financially motivated. These actors have become extremely sophisticated, possibly with the help of AI.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re already seeing real impacts on individuals’ privacy, and that trend is likely to continue as AI makes ransomware and extortion attacks more effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ll have more with Alex and with you, listeners, after the break. You’re listening to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. It seems Anthropic and the Trump administration are talking again after the company angered the Pentagon for putting boundaries on the way its technology could be used. But fears over the capabilities of Anthropic’s new AI model, Claude Mythos, prompted the reengagement. The San Francisco company says Mythos can find and exploit weaknesses in systems faster than humans can address them, creating new opportunities for defense, but also new levels of opportunity for bad actors to launch cyberattacks on governments, hospitals, banks, and the power grid. Anthropic has held back on releasing its AI model publicly, but what happens when it does? How worried should we be?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we put those questions and yours to cybersecurity expert Alex Stamos, a lecturer at Stanford and chief product officer at Corridor. Alex, thanks so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey. Thanks, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So can you just start by helping me understand what Mythos is capable of, as you understand it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Mythos is a model that Anthropic has not released publicly. They’ve provided it to a very small number of large companies to use privately, as well as to some very important open-source projects to use. So Anthropic has been doing work on open-source security for a little while. They’ve been working on the Linux kernel. They’ve been working on Firefox. So this isn’t totally new. But with this new model, what they announced is that they believe that it is a large step change from the capabilities that have existed in the past, that they’ve now been able to find thousands of vulnerabilities instead of just dozens or hundreds, and that they believe that Mythos has a level of capability that is well beyond even the best human testers. So what we’ve seen in the past is that these things are really good at finding bugs, and they’re much faster than humans. But now Mythos is even better than the best human security consultants and security engineers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I read that Anthropic was saying that it found holes in systems that have been scoured countless times and never found before. It’s that good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is. And from my perspective, the big change here actually started last year, probably with the release of Opus 4.5, which happened last November. That’s when we started to see these models really kind of at least pull even, or pull a little bit ahead of, the best human researchers in finding flaws in systems I’ve looked at over and over again. Nick Carlini, who’s a researcher at Anthropic, gave a talk at a conference earlier this year, a conference called Impromptu, where he showed a vulnerability in the Linux kernel. You know, the Linux kernel being the software that runs on billions of devices around the world. Every Android phone, lots and lots of embedded devices that run streetlights, cars, and many things that people don’t even think about actually run Linux. This software—the bug that it found—is older than a lot of my coworkers at the startup I work at. It’s 23 years old, older than almost all my students. And the code has been looked at by hundreds of engineers and probably by the people who find bugs and write exploits at pretty much every major government agency that does this in the United States, China, and Russia, because it’s in a part of the code that you would absolutely want to attack if you’re at the NSA, if you’re at China’s Ministry of State Security or the People’s Liberation Army. You would look here for a bug, and all those people missed it. And this was just Opus—it wasn’t Mythos. So these are models you can access right now from Anthropic. So if Mythos is that much better, then we are definitely entering a totally new era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I want to ask you about what that era could look like. So first, what you’re describing, I could see, on one hand, as an incredible tool to find bugs, holes, and issues that we have not seen before so that we can defend against them. So why is it scaring people so much?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s scaring people because the first step in attacking a system is finding flaws in that system. In the cybersecurity world, we use a term called the kill chain. This is a term we borrowed from the military. When the military uses it, it refers to discovering an asset, doing reconnaissance, and figuring out how to deliver a weapon on a target. In the cyber world, the kill chain involves reconnaissance, finding a flaw in a system used by a target, weaponizing that flaw, delivering the exploit, establishing command and control of the system, exploring the network, moving through it, and then doing whatever you want—whether that’s stealing data, shutting down a system, or encrypting it for ransom. One of the first steps is finding the flaw.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now what we’ve seen is that AI is getting really good at that. At the same time, attackers have been exploring how to use AI to improve the other parts of the kill chain as well. That’s the other kind of research we’ve seen over the last year. Major AI companies, Anthropic and OpenAI, have released threat reports—building on earlier efforts from companies like Facebook and Google—showing how people use these platforms for malicious activity. Those reports show that advanced threat actors are using AI to automate other parts of the attack process, like exploring networks, breaking in, and establishing control channels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re seeing is attackers taking tasks that used to require human effort—and therefore had limits—and using AI to make them faster and cheaper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I imagine that our ability to patch or defend against these activities pales in comparison, or am I wrong? Do the patches exist, and are they easy to implement?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alex Stamos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is where AI can help. AI can find flaws, and it can also write patches. That’s the good news. That’s why Anthropic is providing Mythos to companies and open-source maintainers—not just to find bugs, but to fix them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re trying to do as an industry right now is fix vulnerabilities before adversaries can exploit them. There’s a race underway. The most advanced models—what we call foundation models, like those from Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google—are currently ahead of open-weight models, many of which are developed by Chinese companies. They’re about six to twelve months ahead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, if you use a model like Opus 4.7, GPT-5.4, or the latest Gemini models to do something malicious, you’re leaving logs on company servers, which can be accessed by law enforcement. That makes it risky for attackers. But once open-weight models catch up, attackers will be able to run them locally, without oversight. That’s when things get much more dangerous.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Alex Stamos, chief product officer at Corridor and a lecturer at Stanford, about Mythos from Anthropic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, I want to invite you into the conversation. What are your questions about Mythos? How worried are you about it or other AI models that can assist and advance cyberattacks? What are your questions about how AI bug-finding works? Do you work in AI or IT? How are you preparing for AI-powered cyberattacks? Call us at 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
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