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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, January 20 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Gambling has crept into the news, with prediction markets offering betting odds on everything from Taylor Swift’s wedding date to the U.S. acquisition of Greenland. Political reporters now cite betting odds alongside traditional polls, and media companies like CNN and Yahoo have inked deals with popular betting platforms like Kalshi and Polymarket. So what does it mean to put cold hard cash on the outcome of current events? Danny Funt has written about sports betting for The Washington Post and The New Yorker. He joins us to talk about how online gambling is reshaping the news, and his new book: “Everybody Loses.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"380\" data-end=\"429\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"380\" data-end=\"393\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"405\" data-end=\"412\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"431\" data-end=\"810\">Prediction markets — where people can bet money on, well, just about everything — have entered mainstream media. Last month, CNN announced a deal with the prediction market platform Kalshi to report betting odds on news events. And here was CNN’s chief data analyst, Harry Enten, earlier this month, sharing what bettors thought the chances were of Donald Trump buying Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"1210\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"835\">Harry Enten (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Yeah. Are people in the public taking it seriously? The people who are putting their money where their mouth is? They’re absolutely taking it seriously. I mean, take a look here. The chance that Trump buys any of Greenland by the end of his term — on Friday, it was just 12 percent. Whoa. Way up there now to 36 percent. A tripling in less than a week. My goodness gracious.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1212\" data-end=\"1306\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1212\" data-end=\"1225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what impact could this integration of prediction markets and the news have?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1308\" data-end=\"1579\">We’re joined this hour by Danny Funt, whose recent piece for \u003cem data-start=\"1369\" data-end=\"1385\">The New Yorker\u003c/em> is “America’s Betting Craze Has Spread to Its News Networks.” He’s also the author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"1485\" data-end=\"1551\">Everybody Loses: The Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling\u003c/em>. Danny, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1571\" data-end=\"1578\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1581\" data-end=\"1632\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1581\" data-end=\"1596\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1634\" data-end=\"1808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1634\" data-end=\"1647\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I gave that Greenland example. Give our listeners a sense of what other news events people are betting on these days. How broad — or how specific — does it get?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1810\" data-end=\"2080\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1810\" data-end=\"1825\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> The sky is truly the limit, and that’s the ambition of these companies. As the CEO of Kalshi, one of the top prediction markets, put it: their ultimate goal is for every disagreement two people might have to be something you could bet on on their site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2082\" data-end=\"2426\">Right now, it ranges from high-stakes events like military actions or who the next major-party presidential nominee will be, to things as trivial as whether it will rain tomorrow in New York City. They’re adding hundreds of markets constantly, and the trajectory seems to be that almost everything imaginable could become a betting opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2428\" data-end=\"2528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2428\" data-end=\"2441\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. How do news networks justify betting odds on news events as valuable information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2530\" data-end=\"2973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2530\" data-end=\"2545\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> There is, for lack of a better term, significant predictive power in these markets. When you have large numbers of people betting and bringing all kinds of information to their decisions — whether polls, market trends, or even inside knowledge — and you distill all of that activity into a single number, the odds can be remarkably accurate, or at least more predictive than opinion polls and other tools we commonly rely on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2975\" data-end=\"3212\">There’s a fairly long history of carefully incorporating prediction market data into election coverage. But using these odds for all kinds of breaking news stories — like the CNN example you played — that’s quite novel and controversial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3214\" data-end=\"3343\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3214\" data-end=\"3227\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s one way they’re broadcasting it. They’re also showing it as a ticker at the bottom of the screen, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3345\" data-end=\"3598\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3345\" data-end=\"3360\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> Exactly. You might hear Harry Enten on CNN talking about Kalshi odds related to the story he’s covering, while also seeing markets like who will be the first cabinet secretary ousted, or who will win Best Picture at the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3600\" data-end=\"3855\">The idea seems to be to coax news viewers into visiting these platforms and placing bets. That makes sense for companies like Kalshi or its rival, Polymarket. But the news value for CNN or other outlets that have entered this business is a lot less clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3857\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3857\" data-end=\"3870\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> There’s also a financial incentive for CNN, right? Kalshi is paying CNN and other news networks to air their betting odds — not the other way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4284\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4037\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> That’s right. There’s an advertising upside. A big part of these deals involves exclusivity. In CNN’s case, they’ll only reference Kalshi. For Dow Jones properties like \u003cem data-start=\"4207\" data-end=\"4232\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> or \u003cem data-start=\"4236\" data-end=\"4246\">Barron’s\u003c/em>, they’ll only reference Polymarket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4286\" data-end=\"4647\">That’s curious, because if news organizations truly believe this information enhances coverage, tying their hands to a single source seems counterproductive. It would be like saying you could only cite Gallup polls in political coverage. That would clearly hurt journalism. So yes, broadcasting these odds has a clear advertising benefit for prediction markets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4662\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can also see why news networks — which have faced layoffs, financial pressure, and questions about their value — might find those contracts appealing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4823\" data-end=\"5127\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4823\" data-end=\"4838\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> No doubt. Oliver Darcy, a former CNN media reporter who now writes a well-informed newsletter, has pointed this out. CNN has faced layoffs and pressure to cut costs and turn things around. In that position, it’s hard to stand on principle and say, “We don’t want to encourage gambling.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5129\" data-end=\"5472\">This mirrors what happened with sports betting. As legalization exploded, many prestigious sports outlets were fighting for survival. Executives told me they’d long wanted nothing to do with gambling, but the money was too hard to turn away. I suspect the same thing will happen as more mainstream news outlets partner with prediction markets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5474\" data-end=\"5701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5474\" data-end=\"5487\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And we’re talking with Danny Funt. I want to invite you, our listeners, to join the conversation. What do you think about prediction markets and betting on current events? What questions or concerns do you have?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5703\" data-end=\"5872\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5717\" data-end=\"5731\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. You can also call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5874\" data-end=\"6003\">If you’ve placed a bet on an online prediction market — for sports, the news, or anything else — tell us about your experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6114\">Broadly speaking, what concerns have been raised about integrating prediction market odds into news coverage?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6116\" data-end=\"6400\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6116\" data-end=\"6131\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> There are quite a few. One is the surge in gambling problems across the country. The explosion of sports betting plays a big role in that. There are more and more easy ways to gamble, and when news outlets promote betting during coverage, that encourages it further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6402\" data-end=\"6669\">It can also limit scrutiny. If a news outlet is taking advertising money from these companies, it becomes harder to report critically on their harms — something many sports journalists have told me they experienced once sports betting became a major revenue source.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6671\" data-end=\"6960\">Another issue is how prediction markets present themselves as financial products rather than gambling. That framing helps them exploit legal loopholes, including offering sports betting in places where it’s illegal. If news outlets are complicit in that reframing, that’s a real problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6962\" data-end=\"7330\">There’s also the issue of who’s betting. Insider trading is a serious concern. Someone with advance knowledge — or the ability to influence outcomes — can place a large bet and make substantial money. Imagine a government official betting on a law, court ruling, or military action. Worse still, imagine them influencing those outcomes. That’s a recipe for disaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7332\" data-end=\"7456\">It’s incredibly difficult for these companies to police insider activity, and regulators are going to have their hands full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7458\" data-end=\"7614\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7458\" data-end=\"7471\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And as you’ve suggested, it’s very easy to place a bet. We’re coming up on a break, but can you briefly explain how betting on the news works?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7616\" data-end=\"7858\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7616\" data-end=\"7631\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> On Kalshi, you’re betting with cash on a federally regulated exchange. It functions much like a traditional financial platform. In fact, Kalshi has partnered with Robinhood, and a lot of its trading volume now happens there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7860\" data-end=\"8013\">Polymarket is crypto-based, but crypto has become mainstream enough that this doesn’t feel especially fringe anymore. The barriers to entry are very low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8015\" data-end=\"8213\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8015\" data-end=\"8028\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the explosion of prediction markets tied to current events — from tomorrow’s weather to whether President Trump might invade Greenland before the end of his term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8215\" data-end=\"8488\">We’re joined by Danny Funt, journalist and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8268\" data-end=\"8334\">Everybody Loses: The Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling\u003c/em>. We’re also hearing from you about how you feel about prediction markets, their integration with news coverage, and any questions or concerns you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8490\" data-end=\"8591\">Again, the number is 866-733-6786. Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8531\" data-end=\"8545\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and find us on social media at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8593\" data-end=\"8628\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, January 20 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Gambling has crept into the news, with prediction markets offering betting odds on everything from Taylor Swift’s wedding date to the U.S. acquisition of Greenland. Political reporters now cite betting odds alongside traditional polls, and media companies like CNN and Yahoo have inked deals with popular betting platforms like Kalshi and Polymarket. So what does it mean to put cold hard cash on the outcome of current events? Danny Funt has written about sports betting for The Washington Post and The New Yorker. He joins us to talk about how online gambling is reshaping the news, and his new book: “Everybody Loses.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"380\" data-end=\"429\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"380\" data-end=\"393\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"405\" data-end=\"412\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"431\" data-end=\"810\">Prediction markets — where people can bet money on, well, just about everything — have entered mainstream media. Last month, CNN announced a deal with the prediction market platform Kalshi to report betting odds on news events. And here was CNN’s chief data analyst, Harry Enten, earlier this month, sharing what bettors thought the chances were of Donald Trump buying Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"1210\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"835\">Harry Enten (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Yeah. Are people in the public taking it seriously? The people who are putting their money where their mouth is? They’re absolutely taking it seriously. I mean, take a look here. The chance that Trump buys any of Greenland by the end of his term — on Friday, it was just 12 percent. Whoa. Way up there now to 36 percent. A tripling in less than a week. My goodness gracious.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1212\" data-end=\"1306\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1212\" data-end=\"1225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what impact could this integration of prediction markets and the news have?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1308\" data-end=\"1579\">We’re joined this hour by Danny Funt, whose recent piece for \u003cem data-start=\"1369\" data-end=\"1385\">The New Yorker\u003c/em> is “America’s Betting Craze Has Spread to Its News Networks.” He’s also the author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"1485\" data-end=\"1551\">Everybody Loses: The Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling\u003c/em>. Danny, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1571\" data-end=\"1578\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1581\" data-end=\"1632\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1581\" data-end=\"1596\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1634\" data-end=\"1808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1634\" data-end=\"1647\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I gave that Greenland example. Give our listeners a sense of what other news events people are betting on these days. How broad — or how specific — does it get?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1810\" data-end=\"2080\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1810\" data-end=\"1825\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> The sky is truly the limit, and that’s the ambition of these companies. As the CEO of Kalshi, one of the top prediction markets, put it: their ultimate goal is for every disagreement two people might have to be something you could bet on on their site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2082\" data-end=\"2426\">Right now, it ranges from high-stakes events like military actions or who the next major-party presidential nominee will be, to things as trivial as whether it will rain tomorrow in New York City. They’re adding hundreds of markets constantly, and the trajectory seems to be that almost everything imaginable could become a betting opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2428\" data-end=\"2528\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2428\" data-end=\"2441\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. How do news networks justify betting odds on news events as valuable information?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2530\" data-end=\"2973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2530\" data-end=\"2545\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> There is, for lack of a better term, significant predictive power in these markets. When you have large numbers of people betting and bringing all kinds of information to their decisions — whether polls, market trends, or even inside knowledge — and you distill all of that activity into a single number, the odds can be remarkably accurate, or at least more predictive than opinion polls and other tools we commonly rely on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2975\" data-end=\"3212\">There’s a fairly long history of carefully incorporating prediction market data into election coverage. But using these odds for all kinds of breaking news stories — like the CNN example you played — that’s quite novel and controversial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3214\" data-end=\"3343\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3214\" data-end=\"3227\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s one way they’re broadcasting it. They’re also showing it as a ticker at the bottom of the screen, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3345\" data-end=\"3598\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3345\" data-end=\"3360\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> Exactly. You might hear Harry Enten on CNN talking about Kalshi odds related to the story he’s covering, while also seeing markets like who will be the first cabinet secretary ousted, or who will win Best Picture at the Academy Awards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3600\" data-end=\"3855\">The idea seems to be to coax news viewers into visiting these platforms and placing bets. That makes sense for companies like Kalshi or its rival, Polymarket. But the news value for CNN or other outlets that have entered this business is a lot less clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3857\" data-end=\"4020\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3857\" data-end=\"3870\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> There’s also a financial incentive for CNN, right? Kalshi is paying CNN and other news networks to air their betting odds — not the other way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4284\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4037\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> That’s right. There’s an advertising upside. A big part of these deals involves exclusivity. In CNN’s case, they’ll only reference Kalshi. For Dow Jones properties like \u003cem data-start=\"4207\" data-end=\"4232\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> or \u003cem data-start=\"4236\" data-end=\"4246\">Barron’s\u003c/em>, they’ll only reference Polymarket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4286\" data-end=\"4647\">That’s curious, because if news organizations truly believe this information enhances coverage, tying their hands to a single source seems counterproductive. It would be like saying you could only cite Gallup polls in political coverage. That would clearly hurt journalism. So yes, broadcasting these odds has a clear advertising benefit for prediction markets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4662\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you can also see why news networks — which have faced layoffs, financial pressure, and questions about their value — might find those contracts appealing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4823\" data-end=\"5127\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4823\" data-end=\"4838\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> No doubt. Oliver Darcy, a former CNN media reporter who now writes a well-informed newsletter, has pointed this out. CNN has faced layoffs and pressure to cut costs and turn things around. In that position, it’s hard to stand on principle and say, “We don’t want to encourage gambling.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5129\" data-end=\"5472\">This mirrors what happened with sports betting. As legalization exploded, many prestigious sports outlets were fighting for survival. Executives told me they’d long wanted nothing to do with gambling, but the money was too hard to turn away. I suspect the same thing will happen as more mainstream news outlets partner with prediction markets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5474\" data-end=\"5701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5474\" data-end=\"5487\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And we’re talking with Danny Funt. I want to invite you, our listeners, to join the conversation. What do you think about prediction markets and betting on current events? What questions or concerns do you have?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5703\" data-end=\"5872\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5717\" data-end=\"5731\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. You can also call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5874\" data-end=\"6003\">If you’ve placed a bet on an online prediction market — for sports, the news, or anything else — tell us about your experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6114\">Broadly speaking, what concerns have been raised about integrating prediction market odds into news coverage?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6116\" data-end=\"6400\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6116\" data-end=\"6131\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> There are quite a few. One is the surge in gambling problems across the country. The explosion of sports betting plays a big role in that. There are more and more easy ways to gamble, and when news outlets promote betting during coverage, that encourages it further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6402\" data-end=\"6669\">It can also limit scrutiny. If a news outlet is taking advertising money from these companies, it becomes harder to report critically on their harms — something many sports journalists have told me they experienced once sports betting became a major revenue source.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6671\" data-end=\"6960\">Another issue is how prediction markets present themselves as financial products rather than gambling. That framing helps them exploit legal loopholes, including offering sports betting in places where it’s illegal. If news outlets are complicit in that reframing, that’s a real problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6962\" data-end=\"7330\">There’s also the issue of who’s betting. Insider trading is a serious concern. Someone with advance knowledge — or the ability to influence outcomes — can place a large bet and make substantial money. Imagine a government official betting on a law, court ruling, or military action. Worse still, imagine them influencing those outcomes. That’s a recipe for disaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7332\" data-end=\"7456\">It’s incredibly difficult for these companies to police insider activity, and regulators are going to have their hands full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7458\" data-end=\"7614\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7458\" data-end=\"7471\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And as you’ve suggested, it’s very easy to place a bet. We’re coming up on a break, but can you briefly explain how betting on the news works?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7616\" data-end=\"7858\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7616\" data-end=\"7631\">Danny Funt:\u003c/strong> On Kalshi, you’re betting with cash on a federally regulated exchange. It functions much like a traditional financial platform. In fact, Kalshi has partnered with Robinhood, and a lot of its trading volume now happens there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7860\" data-end=\"8013\">Polymarket is crypto-based, but crypto has become mainstream enough that this doesn’t feel especially fringe anymore. The barriers to entry are very low.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8015\" data-end=\"8213\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8015\" data-end=\"8028\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the explosion of prediction markets tied to current events — from tomorrow’s weather to whether President Trump might invade Greenland before the end of his term.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8215\" data-end=\"8488\">We’re joined by Danny Funt, journalist and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8268\" data-end=\"8334\">Everybody Loses: The Tumultuous Rise of American Sports Gambling\u003c/em>. We’re also hearing from you about how you feel about prediction markets, their integration with news coverage, and any questions or concerns you have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8490\" data-end=\"8591\">Again, the number is 866-733-6786. Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8531\" data-end=\"8545\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, and find us on social media at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8593\" data-end=\"8628\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, January 20 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In her new book “When Trees Testify,” plant biologist Beronda L. Montgomery examines the ways trees are intertwined with Black American history as well as her own life story. For example, the pecan tree was domesticated by an enslaved African and sycamores were both havens and signposts for those fleeing slavery. We talk to Montgomery and hear from you: What’s a tree with special significance to your history?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"334\" data-end=\"397\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"334\" data-end=\"354\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"366\" data-end=\"373\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"399\" data-end=\"736\">History can be told from all kinds of viewpoints, but there are certain narratives that are very hard to access. Many Black lives, since the first enslaved Africans were brought to America by colonists, have gone unrecorded in official histories. Genealogies were lost — ancestors disappearing into the noxious mist of chattel slavery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"738\" data-end=\"1167\">But of course, Black people transformed and were affected by the biological world. They had botanical knowledge and applied horticultural skill, and they too loved to gather under a giant, spreading oak in the heat of a summer. These are the stories that Beronda L. Montgomery, plant biologist and author, brings to the fore in her new book, \u003cem data-start=\"1080\" data-end=\"1164\">When Trees Testify: Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacy\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1169\" data-end=\"1197\">Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1180\" data-end=\"1187\">Forum\u003c/em>, Beronda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1199\" data-end=\"1301\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1199\" data-end=\"1225\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. It’s a great pleasure to be here with you today, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1303\" data-end=\"1363\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1303\" data-end=\"1323\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. Great to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1365\" data-end=\"1666\">So let’s talk a little bit about some of the encounters you had while writing this book as you traveled to different places. You encountered a majestic oak tree in a difficult place to visit — a plantation outside Charleston. What kinds of feelings were going through you as you encountered this tree?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1668\" data-end=\"1953\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1668\" data-end=\"1694\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> You know, the whole day leading up to the trip, I was cantankerous, to say the least. I was visiting Charleston with my sister and my son, and they really wanted to go. They’re Black history buffs and were eager to revisit the history of enslaved Africans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1955\" data-end=\"2293\">I pulled every trick I could not to go, but they insisted. It was almost rainy that day — overcast — and I felt a little gloomy. I think the biggest trepidation was that while I believe you can ethically visit these places, you don’t know who else will be there or how they’ll be interacting with the site. So I was really apprehensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2295\" data-end=\"2492\">As we started the tour, the guide began talking about plants. My son said, “Thank goodness,” because he knows that once we start talking about plants, I’m going to come out of whatever mood I’m in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2494\" data-end=\"2547\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2494\" data-end=\"2514\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Now you’re in your comfort zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2549\" data-end=\"2601\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2549\" data-end=\"2575\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> I’m in my comfort zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2603\" data-end=\"2863\">We walked by former agricultural fields where sea cotton and other crops would have been grown. As we approached this huge oak tree — massive, full of character, wide-spreading — the guide mentioned it was thought to be four hundred to six hundred years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2865\" data-end=\"3238\">It immediately hit me that this tree would have been there while people were enslaved on that land. Standing in its presence, I realized I was experiencing something they had experienced. That realization was deeply powerful. It was the beginning of thinking about trees as material beings that truly connect us in the present to people who were enslaved there in the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3240\" data-end=\"3427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3240\" data-end=\"3260\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> They really do change our sense of time. Rebecca Solnit might say they change the shape of time — because suddenly, these living beings connect us across centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3429\" data-end=\"3610\">How important is it to understand the trees themselves — their botanical functioning? Is that part of the experience for you, or is it more about their presence as living witnesses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3612\" data-end=\"3836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3612\" data-end=\"3638\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> For me, it’s both. Once you start to understand how trees function, you’re understanding the being itself. That’s part of reciprocity — living with them and understanding the science behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"4097\">I mention in the book, and even in a People magazine article that came out recently, that when you understand photosynthesis, you realize your breath can be captured — transformed into sugars that become part of the tree, whether in its leaves or its trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4099\" data-end=\"4289\">So you’re not just standing with a tree that your ancestors once stood beside — part of their breath is physically captured in that tree. And your breath has the chance to be captured too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4291\" data-end=\"4510\">For me, that makes the experience deeper. You’re standing with their essence. The science opens an invitation to think about whose breath is held there, what their lives were like, and how deeply connected we truly are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4512\" data-end=\"4739\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4512\" data-end=\"4532\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When you were going through school — earning your PhD, becoming a plant biologist — did you imagine that your work would lead you to this kind of historical understanding? Or did those worlds feel separate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4741\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4741\" data-end=\"4767\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> They felt separate at first. But it slowly emerged through my experiences as a scientist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5052\">In many instances, I was the only African American in a program or class — sometimes the first and only. That led me to ask how we invite others into these spaces and create representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5054\" data-end=\"5274\">In doing that work, I encountered what many African Americans experience as land trauma — where land and agriculture are tied almost exclusively to the violence of chattel slavery. I began to ask: is that all there is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5276\" data-end=\"5535\">Of course it isn’t. There is also expertise, joy, and deep knowledge to celebrate. I started this journey to better understand what it meant for me to be a Black plant scientist, and then to reclaim and share that legacy so others might be enriched by it too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5537\" data-end=\"5740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5537\" data-end=\"5557\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about one of those stories — pecan trees. I didn’t realize that some of the most important early horticultural work around pecans was done by an enslaved man in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5742\" data-end=\"5909\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5742\" data-end=\"5768\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Yes. I learned about Anton through historical research and through the work of others, including Tiya Miles’s book \u003cem data-start=\"5884\" data-end=\"5906\">All That She Carried\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5911\" data-end=\"6100\">His story is powerful and rarely told. Many Americans might name George Washington Carver if asked to name a Black botanist, but Anton’s expertise was central to the early pecan industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6307\">He produced the first commercially viable pecan, helping establish an industry that remains robust today. Bringing his name forward again shows how essential enslaved Africans were to American agriculture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6309\" data-end=\"6460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6309\" data-end=\"6329\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And botanically, what he did was remarkable. He grafted early pecan trees — something I’ve tried myself, with very little success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6462\" data-end=\"6511\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6462\" data-end=\"6488\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Grafting is difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6513\" data-end=\"6549\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6513\" data-end=\"6533\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Very difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6551\" data-end=\"6774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6551\" data-end=\"6577\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> I often wonder how Anton acquired that knowledge. Some grafting occurs naturally when plants grow together and their tissues fuse. Perhaps people observed that and carried the knowledge forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6776\" data-end=\"7031\">Like much science, it’s curiosity-driven. I wish we knew more about the roots of grafting knowledge — whether it existed on the African continent before enslavement. I know from personal experience that it’s painstaking work, but magical when it succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7033\" data-end=\"7144\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7033\" data-end=\"7053\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re in almond and pistachio country here. So tell us — what does a pecan tree look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7336\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7172\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Pecan trees are tall and beautiful, with distinctive bark. I especially love their compound leaves — we used to pluck them and use them as fans when I was young.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7496\">Watching the progression from flower to nut is a beautiful process. They’re elegant trees with identifiable features. And yes — I went straight to the reward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7498\" data-end=\"7552\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7498\" data-end=\"7518\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’re thinking of the ice cream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7554\" data-end=\"7604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7554\" data-end=\"7580\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Straight to the reward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7626\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Growing up in Arkansas, were pecans a big part of your family life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"7845\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"7722\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. My parents grew up in the Arkansas Delta near the Mississippi River — rich land where pecan trees grew wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7847\" data-end=\"8110\">My grandparents harvested pecans annually, and every winter my grandmother would send boxes of nuts to her children. They’d sit in baskets around the house. They were my dad’s favorite snack and became part of our everyday life because of the abundance around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8112\" data-end=\"8147\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8112\" data-end=\"8132\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8149\" data-end=\"8415\">We’re talking about how trees hold and reflect the history of Black Americans — and our own lives. We’re joined by Beronda L. Montgomery, plant biologist and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8317\" data-end=\"8401\">When Trees Testify: Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacy\u003c/em>, out today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8417\" data-end=\"8617\">We want to hear from you. What’s a tree that’s meaningful in your life — a kind of tree, or a single one you’ve visited? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8600\" data-end=\"8614\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8651\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, January 20 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In her new book “When Trees Testify,” plant biologist Beronda L. Montgomery examines the ways trees are intertwined with Black American history as well as her own life story. For example, the pecan tree was domesticated by an enslaved African and sycamores were both havens and signposts for those fleeing slavery. We talk to Montgomery and hear from you: What’s a tree with special significance to your history?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"334\" data-end=\"397\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"334\" data-end=\"354\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"366\" data-end=\"373\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"399\" data-end=\"736\">History can be told from all kinds of viewpoints, but there are certain narratives that are very hard to access. Many Black lives, since the first enslaved Africans were brought to America by colonists, have gone unrecorded in official histories. Genealogies were lost — ancestors disappearing into the noxious mist of chattel slavery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"738\" data-end=\"1167\">But of course, Black people transformed and were affected by the biological world. They had botanical knowledge and applied horticultural skill, and they too loved to gather under a giant, spreading oak in the heat of a summer. These are the stories that Beronda L. Montgomery, plant biologist and author, brings to the fore in her new book, \u003cem data-start=\"1080\" data-end=\"1164\">When Trees Testify: Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacy\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1169\" data-end=\"1197\">Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1180\" data-end=\"1187\">Forum\u003c/em>, Beronda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1199\" data-end=\"1301\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1199\" data-end=\"1225\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much. It’s a great pleasure to be here with you today, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1303\" data-end=\"1363\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1303\" data-end=\"1323\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Great to have you. Great to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1365\" data-end=\"1666\">So let’s talk a little bit about some of the encounters you had while writing this book as you traveled to different places. You encountered a majestic oak tree in a difficult place to visit — a plantation outside Charleston. What kinds of feelings were going through you as you encountered this tree?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1668\" data-end=\"1953\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1668\" data-end=\"1694\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> You know, the whole day leading up to the trip, I was cantankerous, to say the least. I was visiting Charleston with my sister and my son, and they really wanted to go. They’re Black history buffs and were eager to revisit the history of enslaved Africans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1955\" data-end=\"2293\">I pulled every trick I could not to go, but they insisted. It was almost rainy that day — overcast — and I felt a little gloomy. I think the biggest trepidation was that while I believe you can ethically visit these places, you don’t know who else will be there or how they’ll be interacting with the site. So I was really apprehensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2295\" data-end=\"2492\">As we started the tour, the guide began talking about plants. My son said, “Thank goodness,” because he knows that once we start talking about plants, I’m going to come out of whatever mood I’m in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2494\" data-end=\"2547\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2494\" data-end=\"2514\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Now you’re in your comfort zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2549\" data-end=\"2601\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2549\" data-end=\"2575\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> I’m in my comfort zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2603\" data-end=\"2863\">We walked by former agricultural fields where sea cotton and other crops would have been grown. As we approached this huge oak tree — massive, full of character, wide-spreading — the guide mentioned it was thought to be four hundred to six hundred years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2865\" data-end=\"3238\">It immediately hit me that this tree would have been there while people were enslaved on that land. Standing in its presence, I realized I was experiencing something they had experienced. That realization was deeply powerful. It was the beginning of thinking about trees as material beings that truly connect us in the present to people who were enslaved there in the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3240\" data-end=\"3427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3240\" data-end=\"3260\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> They really do change our sense of time. Rebecca Solnit might say they change the shape of time — because suddenly, these living beings connect us across centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3429\" data-end=\"3610\">How important is it to understand the trees themselves — their botanical functioning? Is that part of the experience for you, or is it more about their presence as living witnesses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3612\" data-end=\"3836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3612\" data-end=\"3638\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> For me, it’s both. Once you start to understand how trees function, you’re understanding the being itself. That’s part of reciprocity — living with them and understanding the science behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"4097\">I mention in the book, and even in a People magazine article that came out recently, that when you understand photosynthesis, you realize your breath can be captured — transformed into sugars that become part of the tree, whether in its leaves or its trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4099\" data-end=\"4289\">So you’re not just standing with a tree that your ancestors once stood beside — part of their breath is physically captured in that tree. And your breath has the chance to be captured too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4291\" data-end=\"4510\">For me, that makes the experience deeper. You’re standing with their essence. The science opens an invitation to think about whose breath is held there, what their lives were like, and how deeply connected we truly are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4512\" data-end=\"4739\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4512\" data-end=\"4532\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When you were going through school — earning your PhD, becoming a plant biologist — did you imagine that your work would lead you to this kind of historical understanding? Or did those worlds feel separate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4741\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4741\" data-end=\"4767\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> They felt separate at first. But it slowly emerged through my experiences as a scientist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5052\">In many instances, I was the only African American in a program or class — sometimes the first and only. That led me to ask how we invite others into these spaces and create representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5054\" data-end=\"5274\">In doing that work, I encountered what many African Americans experience as land trauma — where land and agriculture are tied almost exclusively to the violence of chattel slavery. I began to ask: is that all there is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5276\" data-end=\"5535\">Of course it isn’t. There is also expertise, joy, and deep knowledge to celebrate. I started this journey to better understand what it meant for me to be a Black plant scientist, and then to reclaim and share that legacy so others might be enriched by it too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5537\" data-end=\"5740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5537\" data-end=\"5557\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about one of those stories — pecan trees. I didn’t realize that some of the most important early horticultural work around pecans was done by an enslaved man in the South.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5742\" data-end=\"5909\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5742\" data-end=\"5768\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Yes. I learned about Anton through historical research and through the work of others, including Tiya Miles’s book \u003cem data-start=\"5884\" data-end=\"5906\">All That She Carried\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5911\" data-end=\"6100\">His story is powerful and rarely told. Many Americans might name George Washington Carver if asked to name a Black botanist, but Anton’s expertise was central to the early pecan industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6307\">He produced the first commercially viable pecan, helping establish an industry that remains robust today. Bringing his name forward again shows how essential enslaved Africans were to American agriculture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6309\" data-end=\"6460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6309\" data-end=\"6329\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And botanically, what he did was remarkable. He grafted early pecan trees — something I’ve tried myself, with very little success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6462\" data-end=\"6511\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6462\" data-end=\"6488\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Grafting is difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6513\" data-end=\"6549\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6513\" data-end=\"6533\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Very difficult.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6551\" data-end=\"6774\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6551\" data-end=\"6577\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> I often wonder how Anton acquired that knowledge. Some grafting occurs naturally when plants grow together and their tissues fuse. Perhaps people observed that and carried the knowledge forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6776\" data-end=\"7031\">Like much science, it’s curiosity-driven. I wish we knew more about the roots of grafting knowledge — whether it existed on the African continent before enslavement. I know from personal experience that it’s painstaking work, but magical when it succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7033\" data-end=\"7144\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7033\" data-end=\"7053\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re in almond and pistachio country here. So tell us — what does a pecan tree look like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7336\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7172\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Pecan trees are tall and beautiful, with distinctive bark. I especially love their compound leaves — we used to pluck them and use them as fans when I was young.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7496\">Watching the progression from flower to nut is a beautiful process. They’re elegant trees with identifiable features. And yes — I went straight to the reward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7498\" data-end=\"7552\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7498\" data-end=\"7518\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You’re thinking of the ice cream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7554\" data-end=\"7604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7554\" data-end=\"7580\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Straight to the reward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7626\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Growing up in Arkansas, were pecans a big part of your family life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"7845\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"7722\">Beronda L. Montgomery:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. My parents grew up in the Arkansas Delta near the Mississippi River — rich land where pecan trees grew wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7847\" data-end=\"8110\">My grandparents harvested pecans annually, and every winter my grandmother would send boxes of nuts to her children. They’d sit in baskets around the house. They were my dad’s favorite snack and became part of our everyday life because of the abundance around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8112\" data-end=\"8147\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8112\" data-end=\"8132\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I love that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8149\" data-end=\"8415\">We’re talking about how trees hold and reflect the history of Black Americans — and our own lives. We’re joined by Beronda L. Montgomery, plant biologist and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8317\" data-end=\"8401\">When Trees Testify: Science, Wisdom, History, and America’s Black Botanical Legacy\u003c/em>, out today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8417\" data-end=\"8617\">We want to hear from you. What’s a tree that’s meaningful in your life — a kind of tree, or a single one you’ve visited? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8600\" data-end=\"8614\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8619\" data-end=\"8651\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, January 19 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At least 2,600 protesters have been killed in Iran’s brutal crackdown on anti-government protests, according to the Human Rights Activists News Agency. Those protests now appear to have abated after nearly two weeks, but many outside Iran are still struggling to get information about loved ones because of the Islamic Republic’s communication blackout. Meanwhile, as President Trump gives mixed signals on intervention, the U.S. imposed additional sanctions on Thursday. We’ll hear from Iranians in California about how they’re processing the latest news, and from you: How do you want the U.S. to respond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"419\" data-end=\"707\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"419\" data-end=\"432\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"444\" data-end=\"451\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Thousands gathered in Los Angeles yesterday in support of protesters in Iran, whom the nation’s supreme leader over the weekend acknowledged have been killed by the thousands — though he blamed the U.S. for both the protests and the deaths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"709\" data-end=\"1034\">Activists report more than 3,900 people have been killed, with fears those numbers will rise once the communications blackout lifts. Some Iranians told \u003cem data-start=\"861\" data-end=\"882\">The Washington Post\u003c/em> and other U.S. outlets they’re feeling betrayed by President Trump, who had spurred on protesters and suggested help was on the way, only to pull back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1271\">We get the latest as California’s Iranian Americans closely watch events unfolding overseas. The protests were sparked initially by an economic crisis and currency collapse, before broadening into wider calls for the end of the regime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1505\">Joining me is Sahar Razavi, associate professor in the Department of Political Science and director of the Iranian and Middle Eastern Studies Center at California State University, Sacramento. Sahar, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1507\" data-end=\"1552\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1507\" data-end=\"1524\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1554\" data-end=\"1755\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1554\" data-end=\"1567\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Robin Wright, contributing writer to \u003cem data-start=\"1621\" data-end=\"1637\">The New Yorker\u003c/em>. Her most recent piece for the magazine is “Iran’s Regime Is Unsustainable.” Robin, glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1747\" data-end=\"1754\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1757\" data-end=\"1795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1757\" data-end=\"1774\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> Glad to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1797\" data-end=\"1898\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1797\" data-end=\"1810\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sahar, let me start with you. Have you been able to reach relatives or friends in Iran?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1900\" data-end=\"2290\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1900\" data-end=\"1917\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> I’ve gotten a couple of extremely brief calls from distant relatives. My closer relatives — I have not been able to communicate with them at all, even at the level of a 30-second phone call. We did get news that they were okay. I finally received a text message from a cousin who said they are safe, but that they’re still having a very hard time getting a hold of anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2292\" data-end=\"2586\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2292\" data-end=\"2305\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing media reports that protests have quieted, and even state media is saying there are plans for a limited, gradual return of internet services. Is that happening? And what do you interpret “protests have quieted” to mean? Has violence against protesters abated as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2588\" data-end=\"2737\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2588\" data-end=\"2605\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> The reports I’m seeing indicate that the violence itself has not stopped, but has remained commensurate with the level of protests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2739\" data-end=\"3035\">My interpretation of the protests dying down is that, just as in past waves of protest and uprisings, the force of repression — the brutality of the violence against protesters — has effectively raised the cost of taking to the streets. That has quieted street demonstrations in this acute phase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3037\" data-end=\"3237\">But as with past waves, that doesn’t necessarily mean the protest movement itself — the uprising, the grievances of Iranians — has quieted. It means they’re channeling that dissent into other avenues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3239\" data-end=\"3551\">As for the easing of the communications blackout, I’ve also seen reports that it’s lifting slightly. I think that’s partially because the regime itself wants to get information out. It’s allowing certain outlets, channels, and reporters access to the internet, but it hasn’t allowed it to be widespread just yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3553\" data-end=\"3660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3553\" data-end=\"3566\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would the regime want more information to get out? What kind of information do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3831\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3679\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> I think they want to tightly control the information that gets out. That’s why so few people essentially have passes or permits to access the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3833\" data-end=\"4231\">They want to bolster the narrative that the primary responsibility for the killing of protesters lies with the United States and Israel, which they want to emphasize as much as possible. I don’t think they want — or will ever want — a full accounting of the casualties and destruction. As much as they can, they want to lay responsibility at the feet of what they call outside or foreign agitators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4233\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4233\" data-end=\"4246\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Robin, you’ve been reporting on Iran since 1973 and have seen many anti-government protests erupt and then die down. What do you see as different this time, if anything? And do you think those differences will lead to a different outcome for the regime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4692\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4519\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> The regime clearly is unsustainable. The revolution in 1979 was carried out on behalf of the oppressed, and today the oppressed live far worse than they did under the Shah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4694\" data-end=\"5086\">The pattern that began in 2009 and picked up again in 2017 reflects the diverse interests of Iranian society. Protests have erupted over fraudulent presidential elections, over economic pressures — in one fell swoop, the regime increased gas prices by 300 percent — and more recently, in 2022, young women led the way in protesting personal freedoms through the Women, Life, Freedom movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5088\" data-end=\"5379\">What’s striking this time is the scale, the depth of commitment, and the level of repression carried out by the government, which is clearly very nervous about its fragile future. The government is led by a supreme leader who is 86 years old and has previously suffered from prostate cancer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5381\" data-end=\"5859\">There’s a sense that this third generation since the revolution is not invested in — or bought out by — the social contract and guarantees that sustained the first and second generations. The regime still has the personnel and tools to put down protests, but society is increasingly angry and infuriated by the failures of the revolution. I think we’ve reached a tipping point. It’s not going to be tomorrow or next week — maybe not even next year — but we all know it’s coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5861\" data-end=\"6155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5861\" data-end=\"5874\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Over the weekend, we heard Ayatollah Khamenei acknowledge that thousands of people have been killed — some, in his words, in an “inhuman, savage manner” — while blaming the U.S. for the deaths. It’s been called a rare admission. Why do you think he made it, and is it significant?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6157\" data-end=\"6287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6157\" data-end=\"6174\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s a way of signaling that the regime has the ability to put down protests — and that people will pay a price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6289\" data-end=\"6620\">What’s interesting is that the government has reportedly said protesters who turn themselves in over the next three days will be granted some vague form of leniency. That’s ridiculous. The government has used drones to track people down. It’s gone into apartments to identify individuals captured by street cameras and arrest them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6622\" data-end=\"6735\">Information and access to technology work both ways, and unfortunately the regime has used them very effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6737\" data-end=\"7150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6737\" data-end=\"6750\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> President Trump issued repeated warnings to Tehran, publicly urging Iranians to continue protesting while threatening severe consequences against the regime. Sahar, what effect do you think those statements had on protesters? We’re seeing reports from U.S. outlets, including \u003cem data-start=\"7027\" data-end=\"7048\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>, that some Iranians felt Trump’s threats of military action increased their determination to protest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7152\" data-end=\"7350\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7152\" data-end=\"7169\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> There is a contingent of Iranians inside Iran who want Trump — or someone — to intervene, and they did believe those promises were genuine. That’s driven by a sense of desperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7352\" data-end=\"7638\">Iranians are, at a population level, very politically aware and sophisticated. They’d seen the Trump administration’s track record, most recently with Maduro in Venezuela. They believed that if they heeded the call, help would be on the way, as Trump promised. Clearly, it has not been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7640\" data-end=\"7989\">We’ve also seen statements from Trump and from Reza Pahlavi in recent interviews that, in my opinion, very dangerously cosign the regime’s response. Pahlavi said, in an interview with Norah O’Donnell, that this is a war — and that in war, there are casualties — effectively legitimizing the regime’s narrative that it’s engaged in an armed conflict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7991\" data-end=\"8195\">Trump, when asked about intervention, said the regime claims it’s no longer executing people, so there’s no need to intervene. When pressed, he made similar statements framing this as a war on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8197\" data-end=\"8446\">I fully understand the sense of betrayal among Iranians — not only because of the lack of follow-through on promises, but because these statements, from two closely aligned figures, have undercut the uprising. In my view, that’s extremely dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8448\" data-end=\"8569\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8448\" data-end=\"8461\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Robin, what has struck you most about the president’s response, and do you think the U.S. will take action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8571\" data-end=\"8745\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8571\" data-end=\"8588\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> The U.S. has moved the USS \u003cem data-start=\"8616\" data-end=\"8633\">Abraham Lincoln\u003c/em> into the Gulf, increasing its military presence if it chose to strike. I think it’s probably too late for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8747\" data-end=\"9012\">There are also longstanding questions about what kinetic action would actually change on the ground. What would the United States hit that would make a real difference — the supreme leader’s compound, Revolutionary Guard headquarters, the Basij paramilitary forces?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9014\" data-end=\"9192\">There are other options, particularly cyber options — disrupting the regime’s ability to communicate internally or disabling certain military programs. But those are more subtle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9194\" data-end=\"9392\">Kinetic action was opposed, interestingly enough, by many in the Arab world and by Israel, partly because no one knew what the aftermath would look like or whether it would actually change anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9394\" data-end=\"9743\">I think there’s widespread agreement that the president has been extremely hypocritical — calling for action, promising it, and then deciding against it. Meanwhile, he’s used military force domestically, including in Minnesota, while not acting where thousands have died in Iran. From a policy standpoint, it’s difficult to reconcile that hypocrisy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9745\" data-end=\"9830\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9745\" data-end=\"9758\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’ll have more on Iran after the break. This is \u003cem data-start=\"9808\" data-end=\"9815\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, January 19 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At least 2,600 protesters have been killed in Iran’s brutal crackdown on anti-government protests, according to the Human Rights Activists News Agency. Those protests now appear to have abated after nearly two weeks, but many outside Iran are still struggling to get information about loved ones because of the Islamic Republic’s communication blackout. Meanwhile, as President Trump gives mixed signals on intervention, the U.S. imposed additional sanctions on Thursday. We’ll hear from Iranians in California about how they’re processing the latest news, and from you: How do you want the U.S. to respond?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"419\" data-end=\"707\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"419\" data-end=\"432\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"444\" data-end=\"451\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Thousands gathered in Los Angeles yesterday in support of protesters in Iran, whom the nation’s supreme leader over the weekend acknowledged have been killed by the thousands — though he blamed the U.S. for both the protests and the deaths.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"709\" data-end=\"1034\">Activists report more than 3,900 people have been killed, with fears those numbers will rise once the communications blackout lifts. Some Iranians told \u003cem data-start=\"861\" data-end=\"882\">The Washington Post\u003c/em> and other U.S. outlets they’re feeling betrayed by President Trump, who had spurred on protesters and suggested help was on the way, only to pull back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1271\">We get the latest as California’s Iranian Americans closely watch events unfolding overseas. The protests were sparked initially by an economic crisis and currency collapse, before broadening into wider calls for the end of the regime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1505\">Joining me is Sahar Razavi, associate professor in the Department of Political Science and director of the Iranian and Middle Eastern Studies Center at California State University, Sacramento. Sahar, really glad to have you with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1507\" data-end=\"1552\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1507\" data-end=\"1524\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1554\" data-end=\"1755\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1554\" data-end=\"1567\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Robin Wright, contributing writer to \u003cem data-start=\"1621\" data-end=\"1637\">The New Yorker\u003c/em>. Her most recent piece for the magazine is “Iran’s Regime Is Unsustainable.” Robin, glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1747\" data-end=\"1754\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1757\" data-end=\"1795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1757\" data-end=\"1774\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> Glad to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1797\" data-end=\"1898\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1797\" data-end=\"1810\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sahar, let me start with you. Have you been able to reach relatives or friends in Iran?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1900\" data-end=\"2290\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1900\" data-end=\"1917\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> I’ve gotten a couple of extremely brief calls from distant relatives. My closer relatives — I have not been able to communicate with them at all, even at the level of a 30-second phone call. We did get news that they were okay. I finally received a text message from a cousin who said they are safe, but that they’re still having a very hard time getting a hold of anyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2292\" data-end=\"2586\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2292\" data-end=\"2305\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing media reports that protests have quieted, and even state media is saying there are plans for a limited, gradual return of internet services. Is that happening? And what do you interpret “protests have quieted” to mean? Has violence against protesters abated as well?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2588\" data-end=\"2737\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2588\" data-end=\"2605\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> The reports I’m seeing indicate that the violence itself has not stopped, but has remained commensurate with the level of protests.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2739\" data-end=\"3035\">My interpretation of the protests dying down is that, just as in past waves of protest and uprisings, the force of repression — the brutality of the violence against protesters — has effectively raised the cost of taking to the streets. That has quieted street demonstrations in this acute phase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3037\" data-end=\"3237\">But as with past waves, that doesn’t necessarily mean the protest movement itself — the uprising, the grievances of Iranians — has quieted. It means they’re channeling that dissent into other avenues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3239\" data-end=\"3551\">As for the easing of the communications blackout, I’ve also seen reports that it’s lifting slightly. I think that’s partially because the regime itself wants to get information out. It’s allowing certain outlets, channels, and reporters access to the internet, but it hasn’t allowed it to be widespread just yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3553\" data-end=\"3660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3553\" data-end=\"3566\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would the regime want more information to get out? What kind of information do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3831\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3679\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> I think they want to tightly control the information that gets out. That’s why so few people essentially have passes or permits to access the internet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3833\" data-end=\"4231\">They want to bolster the narrative that the primary responsibility for the killing of protesters lies with the United States and Israel, which they want to emphasize as much as possible. I don’t think they want — or will ever want — a full accounting of the casualties and destruction. As much as they can, they want to lay responsibility at the feet of what they call outside or foreign agitators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4233\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4233\" data-end=\"4246\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Robin, you’ve been reporting on Iran since 1973 and have seen many anti-government protests erupt and then die down. What do you see as different this time, if anything? And do you think those differences will lead to a different outcome for the regime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4692\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4519\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> The regime clearly is unsustainable. The revolution in 1979 was carried out on behalf of the oppressed, and today the oppressed live far worse than they did under the Shah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4694\" data-end=\"5086\">The pattern that began in 2009 and picked up again in 2017 reflects the diverse interests of Iranian society. Protests have erupted over fraudulent presidential elections, over economic pressures — in one fell swoop, the regime increased gas prices by 300 percent — and more recently, in 2022, young women led the way in protesting personal freedoms through the Women, Life, Freedom movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5088\" data-end=\"5379\">What’s striking this time is the scale, the depth of commitment, and the level of repression carried out by the government, which is clearly very nervous about its fragile future. The government is led by a supreme leader who is 86 years old and has previously suffered from prostate cancer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5381\" data-end=\"5859\">There’s a sense that this third generation since the revolution is not invested in — or bought out by — the social contract and guarantees that sustained the first and second generations. The regime still has the personnel and tools to put down protests, but society is increasingly angry and infuriated by the failures of the revolution. I think we’ve reached a tipping point. It’s not going to be tomorrow or next week — maybe not even next year — but we all know it’s coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5861\" data-end=\"6155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5861\" data-end=\"5874\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Over the weekend, we heard Ayatollah Khamenei acknowledge that thousands of people have been killed — some, in his words, in an “inhuman, savage manner” — while blaming the U.S. for the deaths. It’s been called a rare admission. Why do you think he made it, and is it significant?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6157\" data-end=\"6287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6157\" data-end=\"6174\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s a way of signaling that the regime has the ability to put down protests — and that people will pay a price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6289\" data-end=\"6620\">What’s interesting is that the government has reportedly said protesters who turn themselves in over the next three days will be granted some vague form of leniency. That’s ridiculous. The government has used drones to track people down. It’s gone into apartments to identify individuals captured by street cameras and arrest them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6622\" data-end=\"6735\">Information and access to technology work both ways, and unfortunately the regime has used them very effectively.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6737\" data-end=\"7150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6737\" data-end=\"6750\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> President Trump issued repeated warnings to Tehran, publicly urging Iranians to continue protesting while threatening severe consequences against the regime. Sahar, what effect do you think those statements had on protesters? We’re seeing reports from U.S. outlets, including \u003cem data-start=\"7027\" data-end=\"7048\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>, that some Iranians felt Trump’s threats of military action increased their determination to protest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7152\" data-end=\"7350\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7152\" data-end=\"7169\">Sahar Razavi:\u003c/strong> There is a contingent of Iranians inside Iran who want Trump — or someone — to intervene, and they did believe those promises were genuine. That’s driven by a sense of desperation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7352\" data-end=\"7638\">Iranians are, at a population level, very politically aware and sophisticated. They’d seen the Trump administration’s track record, most recently with Maduro in Venezuela. They believed that if they heeded the call, help would be on the way, as Trump promised. Clearly, it has not been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7640\" data-end=\"7989\">We’ve also seen statements from Trump and from Reza Pahlavi in recent interviews that, in my opinion, very dangerously cosign the regime’s response. Pahlavi said, in an interview with Norah O’Donnell, that this is a war — and that in war, there are casualties — effectively legitimizing the regime’s narrative that it’s engaged in an armed conflict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7991\" data-end=\"8195\">Trump, when asked about intervention, said the regime claims it’s no longer executing people, so there’s no need to intervene. When pressed, he made similar statements framing this as a war on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8197\" data-end=\"8446\">I fully understand the sense of betrayal among Iranians — not only because of the lack of follow-through on promises, but because these statements, from two closely aligned figures, have undercut the uprising. In my view, that’s extremely dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8448\" data-end=\"8569\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8448\" data-end=\"8461\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Robin, what has struck you most about the president’s response, and do you think the U.S. will take action?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8571\" data-end=\"8745\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8571\" data-end=\"8588\">Robin Wright:\u003c/strong> The U.S. has moved the USS \u003cem data-start=\"8616\" data-end=\"8633\">Abraham Lincoln\u003c/em> into the Gulf, increasing its military presence if it chose to strike. I think it’s probably too late for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8747\" data-end=\"9012\">There are also longstanding questions about what kinetic action would actually change on the ground. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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