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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, February 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Commercial surrogacy has long been life-changing for LGBTQ+ and infertile couples wishing to have children. Even though the practice is banned or highly restricted in much of the rest of the world, the U.S. has no federal laws overseeing the practice. In a new investigation, New Yorker staff writer Ava Kofman exposes one Los Angeles couple that enlisted surrogate mothers for at least 25 children, all of whom are currently in foster care. California is considered a surrogacy stronghold within the $42 billion global fertility industry. We’ll unpack why, and the reforms advocates want to see to improve the informed consent of both surrogates and intended parents — and to keep their children safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. California is better than most states when it comes to protections for surrogates, but a shocking recent incident is revealing the need for improvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"202\" data-end=\"705\">Last May, police showed up at the home of a wealthy Los Angeles couple and found 15 children inside — most born to different surrogate mothers. Authorities were conducting a welfare check after one of the children was hospitalized with bleeding in the brain. \u003cem data-start=\"461\" data-end=\"477\">The New Yorker\u003c/em> investigative reporter Ava Kofman has looked into why the children were there, what the surrogates knew, and whether broader protections or regulations are needed — for surrogates, the children they carry, and intended parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"707\" data-end=\"771\">Have you been — or used — a surrogate? What was your experience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"773\" data-end=\"948\">Ava Kofman is a Los Angeles–based staff writer for \u003cem data-start=\"824\" data-end=\"840\">The New Yorker\u003c/em>. Her recent piece is called “The Babies Kept in a Mysterious Los Angeles Mansion.” Ava, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"940\" data-end=\"947\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"950\" data-end=\"995\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"950\" data-end=\"965\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"997\" data-end=\"1118\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"997\" data-end=\"1010\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You first began reporting this story by talking with surrogate Kayla Elliott from Texas. Tell us about her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1120\" data-end=\"1485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1120\" data-end=\"1135\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Kayla Elliott was around 26 when she started what’s known in the fertility industry as a “journey.” She had four children of her own and felt her family was complete, but she was interested in helping another family build the life she had. She realized it could be a win-win: she could earn money for her family while helping strangers start theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1487\" data-end=\"1744\">She posted about herself on Facebook and heard from a California agency. Kayla is based in Corpus Christi, Texas, and was contacted by an agency called Mark Surrogacy. From there, she was matched fairly quickly with what are known as the “intended parents.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1746\" data-end=\"2128\">She didn’t realize at the time — since it was her first journey — that this quick match was unusual. Typically, there’s more of a vetting and matching process. That might have been a red flag to someone more experienced. But she was excited. She didn’t know much about the parents and tried to communicate with them, but didn’t hear much back. 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Surrogacy is intimate labor — you’re helping bring someone else’s child into the world — and she was excited about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2633\" data-end=\"2779\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2633\" data-end=\"2646\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> About halfway through her pregnancy, she learned she wasn’t the only surrogate carrying a child for this L.A. couple. What happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2781\" data-end=\"2878\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2781\" data-end=\"2796\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> She was told through someone on Facebook that the couple already had 13 children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2880\" data-end=\"2915\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2880\" data-end=\"2893\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. What did she do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2917\" data-end=\"3230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2917\" data-end=\"2932\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> She contacted the agency and was quite surprised. She also spoke with fertility attorneys who gave her more information. She thought it was strange. But she was already four and a half months pregnant at that point and was reassured: yes, they hadn’t told her, but they simply wanted a big family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3232\" data-end=\"3507\">Others told her it might seem unusual, but not necessarily shady. So she quieted her anxieties. It wasn’t until two months after she gave birth — in March of last year — that she learned there weren’t just 13 children, but more than 20. She wasn’t even sure exactly how many.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3509\" data-end=\"3665\">At that point, she began to worry that this might be about more than building a large family — perhaps something far more troubling, even human trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3667\" data-end=\"3836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3667\" data-end=\"3680\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It clearly didn’t sit right with her. She learned more through an L.A. welfare agency. And this all came to light because of a hospitalized child, correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"4117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"3853\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Yes. A baby named Walter, who had been born just weeks before Kayla delivered her “suro-baby,” was taken to a Los Angeles hospital with bleeding in his brain and behind his eyes. He was vomiting and having seizures — symptoms consistent with possible child abuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4119\" data-end=\"4642\">That raised alarms for hospital social workers, who contacted police. When officers arrived at the Arcadia home — a wealthy city in L.A. County — they discovered not just one infant, but many children inside. Contrary to what Walter’s hospital chart suggested, he had numerous siblings. Most of the children were under three years old, many with their heads shaved. It was an extremely crowded and overwhelming household — biologically impossible to have conceived that many children naturally in such a short span of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4644\" data-end=\"4867\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4644\" data-end=\"4657\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You report that the couple had extensive surveillance cameras inside the home — apparently to monitor nannies and staff. Police reviewed that footage before taking the children into custody. What did they see?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4869\" data-end=\"5211\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4869\" data-end=\"4884\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Initially, when police arrived, they saw classrooms set up inside and didn’t immediately observe visible signs of abuse. But after reviewing the surveillance footage — recorded by the parents themselves — they saw what appeared to be children receiving beatings, spankings, and being struck with objects like shoes and sticks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5213\" data-end=\"5520\">They also saw footage suggesting that Walter, who they’d been told had fallen off a bed, had in fact been hit multiple times in the face and head. After seeing this, police took the children into custody. As authorities examined the children more closely, they observed signs consistent with severe neglect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5522\" data-end=\"5685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5522\" data-end=\"5535\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The couple — Guojun Xuan and Silvia Zhang — were arrested but not charged. Even amid all of this, they were still having children through surrogates?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5687\" data-end=\"5920\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5687\" data-end=\"5702\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Yes, and that’s part of what made the story so shocking. The couple was arrested and released, and they have not been charged. A dependency court case was opened regarding the custody of the children they already had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5922\" data-end=\"6350\">Meanwhile, several women were still pregnant for them. These surrogates learned that the couple they were carrying for was under investigation by police, the FBI, and juvenile dependency court. They had entered into surrogacy intending to hand the babies over to loving parents. They hadn’t planned to raise these children themselves. But understandably, they began to worry about how to protect the children they were carrying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6352\" data-end=\"6423\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6352\" data-end=\"6365\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Based on your reporting, how unusual is a case like this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6425\" data-end=\"6590\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6425\" data-end=\"6440\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> It’s incredibly unusual to have this many children in one household. And what was allegedly happening inside the home appears highly unusual as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6592\" data-end=\"6954\">However, there’s nothing legally preventing someone from having as many children as they want through surrogacy or assisted reproduction. In fact, recent reporting in \u003cem data-start=\"6759\" data-end=\"6784\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> has documented cases of individuals having upwards of 100 children, in part through surrogates. In that context, this might even be considered a smaller-scale operation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"6969\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What struck you about what this Arcadia couple said publicly — in Chinese-language media, for example — about their motivations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7100\" data-end=\"7258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7100\" data-end=\"7115\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> They said they simply wanted a big family. They wanted many children who could grow up, succeed, and carry on the family bloodline and legacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7260\" data-end=\"7512\">It does appear to reflect a broader trend among some wealthy individuals — like Elon Musk — who’ve spoken openly about wanting to expand their gene pool and legacy. In this case, though, the method and the impact on the children raise serious concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7514\" data-end=\"7676\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7514\" data-end=\"7527\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the break, we’ll continue this conversation with Ava Kofman about the surrogacy agency involved and the broader commercial surrogacy industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7678\" data-end=\"7874\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">Listeners, what’s your reaction? Have you been a surrogate in California or worked with one? What questions do you have about commercial surrogacy? Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7838\" data-end=\"7852\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, February 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Commercial surrogacy has long been life-changing for LGBTQ+ and infertile couples wishing to have children. Even though the practice is banned or highly restricted in much of the rest of the world, the U.S. has no federal laws overseeing the practice. In a new investigation, New Yorker staff writer Ava Kofman exposes one Los Angeles couple that enlisted surrogate mothers for at least 25 children, all of whom are currently in foster care. California is considered a surrogacy stronghold within the $42 billion global fertility industry. We’ll unpack why, and the reforms advocates want to see to improve the informed consent of both surrogates and intended parents — and to keep their children safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"200\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. California is better than most states when it comes to protections for surrogates, but a shocking recent incident is revealing the need for improvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"202\" data-end=\"705\">Last May, police showed up at the home of a wealthy Los Angeles couple and found 15 children inside — most born to different surrogate mothers. Authorities were conducting a welfare check after one of the children was hospitalized with bleeding in the brain. \u003cem data-start=\"461\" data-end=\"477\">The New Yorker\u003c/em> investigative reporter Ava Kofman has looked into why the children were there, what the surrogates knew, and whether broader protections or regulations are needed — for surrogates, the children they carry, and intended parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"707\" data-end=\"771\">Have you been — or used — a surrogate? What was your experience?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"773\" data-end=\"948\">Ava Kofman is a Los Angeles–based staff writer for \u003cem data-start=\"824\" data-end=\"840\">The New Yorker\u003c/em>. Her recent piece is called “The Babies Kept in a Mysterious Los Angeles Mansion.” Ava, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"940\" data-end=\"947\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"950\" data-end=\"995\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"950\" data-end=\"965\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"997\" data-end=\"1118\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"997\" data-end=\"1010\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You first began reporting this story by talking with surrogate Kayla Elliott from Texas. Tell us about her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1120\" data-end=\"1485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1120\" data-end=\"1135\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Kayla Elliott was around 26 when she started what’s known in the fertility industry as a “journey.” She had four children of her own and felt her family was complete, but she was interested in helping another family build the life she had. She realized it could be a win-win: she could earn money for her family while helping strangers start theirs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1487\" data-end=\"1744\">She posted about herself on Facebook and heard from a California agency. Kayla is based in Corpus Christi, Texas, and was contacted by an agency called Mark Surrogacy. From there, she was matched fairly quickly with what are known as the “intended parents.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1746\" data-end=\"2128\">She didn’t realize at the time — since it was her first journey — that this quick match was unusual. Typically, there’s more of a vetting and matching process. That might have been a red flag to someone more experienced. But she was excited. She didn’t know much about the parents and tried to communicate with them, but didn’t hear much back. That was the beginning of her journey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2130\" data-end=\"2330\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2130\" data-end=\"2143\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> She was surprised by the lack of communication, right? Especially because, initially, what she’d learned made them seem like a good fit — a family with one daughter who wanted a sibling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2631\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2347\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Exactly. On paper, they said they wanted to be as close as possible. Kayla wasn’t looking for just a financial transaction; she hoped for an emotional connection. Surrogacy is intimate labor — you’re helping bring someone else’s child into the world — and she was excited about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2633\" data-end=\"2779\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2633\" data-end=\"2646\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> About halfway through her pregnancy, she learned she wasn’t the only surrogate carrying a child for this L.A. couple. What happened?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2781\" data-end=\"2878\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2781\" data-end=\"2796\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> She was told through someone on Facebook that the couple already had 13 children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2880\" data-end=\"2915\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2880\" data-end=\"2893\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. What did she do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2917\" data-end=\"3230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2917\" data-end=\"2932\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> She contacted the agency and was quite surprised. She also spoke with fertility attorneys who gave her more information. She thought it was strange. But she was already four and a half months pregnant at that point and was reassured: yes, they hadn’t told her, but they simply wanted a big family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3232\" data-end=\"3507\">Others told her it might seem unusual, but not necessarily shady. So she quieted her anxieties. It wasn’t until two months after she gave birth — in March of last year — that she learned there weren’t just 13 children, but more than 20. She wasn’t even sure exactly how many.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3509\" data-end=\"3665\">At that point, she began to worry that this might be about more than building a large family — perhaps something far more troubling, even human trafficking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3667\" data-end=\"3836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3667\" data-end=\"3680\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It clearly didn’t sit right with her. She learned more through an L.A. welfare agency. And this all came to light because of a hospitalized child, correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"4117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3838\" data-end=\"3853\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Yes. A baby named Walter, who had been born just weeks before Kayla delivered her “suro-baby,” was taken to a Los Angeles hospital with bleeding in his brain and behind his eyes. He was vomiting and having seizures — symptoms consistent with possible child abuse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4119\" data-end=\"4642\">That raised alarms for hospital social workers, who contacted police. When officers arrived at the Arcadia home — a wealthy city in L.A. County — they discovered not just one infant, but many children inside. Contrary to what Walter’s hospital chart suggested, he had numerous siblings. Most of the children were under three years old, many with their heads shaved. It was an extremely crowded and overwhelming household — biologically impossible to have conceived that many children naturally in such a short span of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4644\" data-end=\"4867\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4644\" data-end=\"4657\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You report that the couple had extensive surveillance cameras inside the home — apparently to monitor nannies and staff. Police reviewed that footage before taking the children into custody. What did they see?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4869\" data-end=\"5211\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4869\" data-end=\"4884\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Initially, when police arrived, they saw classrooms set up inside and didn’t immediately observe visible signs of abuse. But after reviewing the surveillance footage — recorded by the parents themselves — they saw what appeared to be children receiving beatings, spankings, and being struck with objects like shoes and sticks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5213\" data-end=\"5520\">They also saw footage suggesting that Walter, who they’d been told had fallen off a bed, had in fact been hit multiple times in the face and head. After seeing this, police took the children into custody. As authorities examined the children more closely, they observed signs consistent with severe neglect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5522\" data-end=\"5685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5522\" data-end=\"5535\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The couple — Guojun Xuan and Silvia Zhang — were arrested but not charged. Even amid all of this, they were still having children through surrogates?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5687\" data-end=\"5920\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5687\" data-end=\"5702\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> Yes, and that’s part of what made the story so shocking. The couple was arrested and released, and they have not been charged. A dependency court case was opened regarding the custody of the children they already had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5922\" data-end=\"6350\">Meanwhile, several women were still pregnant for them. These surrogates learned that the couple they were carrying for was under investigation by police, the FBI, and juvenile dependency court. They had entered into surrogacy intending to hand the babies over to loving parents. They hadn’t planned to raise these children themselves. But understandably, they began to worry about how to protect the children they were carrying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6352\" data-end=\"6423\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6352\" data-end=\"6365\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Based on your reporting, how unusual is a case like this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6425\" data-end=\"6590\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6425\" data-end=\"6440\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> It’s incredibly unusual to have this many children in one household. And what was allegedly happening inside the home appears highly unusual as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6592\" data-end=\"6954\">However, there’s nothing legally preventing someone from having as many children as they want through surrogacy or assisted reproduction. In fact, recent reporting in \u003cem data-start=\"6759\" data-end=\"6784\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em> has documented cases of individuals having upwards of 100 children, in part through surrogates. In that context, this might even be considered a smaller-scale operation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7098\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"6969\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What struck you about what this Arcadia couple said publicly — in Chinese-language media, for example — about their motivations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7100\" data-end=\"7258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7100\" data-end=\"7115\">Ava Kofman:\u003c/strong> They said they simply wanted a big family. They wanted many children who could grow up, succeed, and carry on the family bloodline and legacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7260\" data-end=\"7512\">It does appear to reflect a broader trend among some wealthy individuals — like Elon Musk — who’ve spoken openly about wanting to expand their gene pool and legacy. In this case, though, the method and the impact on the children raise serious concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7514\" data-end=\"7676\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7514\" data-end=\"7527\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> After the break, we’ll continue this conversation with Ava Kofman about the surrogacy agency involved and the broader commercial surrogacy industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7678\" data-end=\"7874\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">Listeners, what’s your reaction? Have you been a surrogate in California or worked with one? What questions do you have about commercial surrogacy? Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7838\" data-end=\"7852\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, February 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Newer AI tools have begun to act less like “a souped up search engine and more of a junior staffer” observes one industry watcher. Software developers are deploying Claude Code. Small business people are using AI to work out logistics. At home, people are deploying AI to organize to-do lists, plan vacations, and create meal plans. But what are the risks? We talk about how AI is evolving, and how to think about the ethics of using these tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex flex-col text-sm pb-25\">\n\u003carticle class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:b57a5f0c-1e2a-4b53-bef7-b5686fe0667c-0\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-2\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:--spacing(4)] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(6)] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(16)] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"e4c55eb1-99eb-4d7a-a8a1-8ed16354306b\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-2\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[1px]\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"550\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I know many of our listeners are deeply skeptical of AI, and I get it. People worry about the motives of the companies deploying these tools. They raise concerns about environmental impacts, now and in the future. They believe no one really wants to use these tools, that they’re being foisted on us by the biggest tech companies. I’m sympathetic to many of these concerns. I’ve covered technology for too long to imagine that AI will be harmless, utopian, or even necessarily a net good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"552\" data-end=\"1178\">But I also think many people who aren’t immersed in this world have an outdated model of how AI tools work and what they’re good — and bad — at. So to begin this discussion, here’s my simple heuristic: I think these tools are bad to very bad at human things — like making art, writing interesting prose, or surprising us with insight — despite what AI boosters might hope. However, they are now astounding at what I’d call “computer things”: taking a huge dataset and pulling out summaries or outliers, coding a small connector between internet services, helping with annoyingly complex data questions about company logistics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1180\" data-end=\"1299\">They’re not oracles. But given ground-truth documents and data to work with, they’re frighteningly good at these tasks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1301\" data-end=\"1633\">Today, we’re going to talk about this emerging set of uses for AI — and then try to reconcile some of the worries and risks I just mentioned. Whatever else happens — bubble burst or AI breakout — I suspect that when someone writes the future timeline of the world, it’ll say, right next to whatever happened: “San Francisco, 2020s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1635\" data-end=\"1659\">So let’s learn about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1661\" data-end=\"1772\">We’ve got Maxwell Zeff, senior writer for \u003cem data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1710\">Wired\u003c/em>. He covers artificial intelligence for the magazine. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1774\" data-end=\"1813\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1774\" data-end=\"1791\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1815\" data-end=\"1970\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1815\" data-end=\"1835\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Nitasha Tiku, a journalist covering technology, formerly with \u003cem data-start=\"1913\" data-end=\"1934\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>, \u003cem data-start=\"1936\" data-end=\"1943\">Wired\u003c/em>, and \u003cem data-start=\"1949\" data-end=\"1960\">The Verge\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1972\" data-end=\"2011\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1972\" data-end=\"1989\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2013\" data-end=\"2216\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2013\" data-end=\"2033\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Heather Kelly, another technology journalist focusing on the intersection of tech and everyday life, formerly with \u003cem data-start=\"2163\" data-end=\"2184\">The Washington Post\u003c/em> and CNN. Thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2218\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2218\" data-end=\"2236\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2442\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2276\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nitasha, let’s go through a little timeline. I’m always kind of shocked — and was shocked again this morning — that ChatGPT came out in December 2022. Is that right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2444\" data-end=\"2476\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2444\" data-end=\"2461\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> November 30th.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2478\" data-end=\"2512\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2478\" data-end=\"2498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2514\" data-end=\"2577\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2514\" data-end=\"2531\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Sadly, I have these dates etched in my brain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2579\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2579\" data-end=\"2599\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Back then, it was basically just a chatbot. How were people using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2688\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> I’d say people used it as a kind of souped-up Google. It was more direct at getting you the links you wanted. It gave you factual information in the format you wanted, without forcing you to sift through ten blue links. And I think people were also just tickled by the human-like quality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2979\" data-end=\"3022\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2979\" data-end=\"2999\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> The computer can talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3024\" data-end=\"3261\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3024\" data-end=\"3041\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Yes. And it’s chatty — it wants to talk. It’s easier to interact with than Boolean logic, putting things in quotes and plus signs. It felt closer to that sci-fi dream of a perfect little robot that will do your bidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3263\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3263\" data-end=\"3283\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Heather, as time went on, it wasn’t just OpenAI, which makes ChatGPT. Here in San Francisco, Anthropic and Claude became real competitors, at least locally. How did you see people’s use of these tools evolve over the last couple of years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3723\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3542\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Instead of just complex searches, people started asking, “What can you actually do for me?” ChatGPT divides this into asking, doing, and expressing — three main ways people use it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3725\" data-end=\"4083\">This might be San Francisco brain, but there’s a lot of coding you can do with Claude and ChatGPT. There’s a lot of workplace productivity stuff. But there’s also: “I don’t want to write this cover letter,” or “I need help with my essay.” There’s a thin line between cheating and getting assistance, but people were definitely using it for that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4085\" data-end=\"4361\">Then, as people fed it more information and it learned more about them, it started becoming a kind of database of their thoughts and lives. That led to more introspection, bigger questions — and in some cases, what we might call unhealthy relationships with these AI chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4363\" data-end=\"4682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4363\" data-end=\"4383\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Maxwell, let’s talk about coding. Coding is basically talking to computers in their native language. Now you can just talk to them in English. What have you seen recently — especially in the last few months? Among people I know, there’s this sense that December 2025 marked some kind of sea change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4684\" data-end=\"4966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4684\" data-end=\"4701\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> There’s definitely a notion that December 2025 was an inflection point in AI model capabilities, particularly for software engineers. The people I talk to at tech companies and AI labs say the way they do their work has changed dramatically in the last six months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4968\" data-end=\"5142\">This is one of the most fascinating turning points in the AI era since ChatGPT launched, because software engineers are the first group seeing their work meaningfully change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5462\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5164\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There was a big survey of AI deployments in Fortune 500 companies, and most companies said it didn’t help — no productivity increase. But just months later, AI companies themselves are saying, “We don’t code anymore. We’re using Claude to make the next version of Claude.” That’s wildly different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5464\" data-end=\"5495\">Walk us through how that works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5683\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5514\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> A good way to think about these new AI coding agents is that you can ask them in plain English: “Hey, I need a new feature for this website.” For example, “Add a menu.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5685\" data-end=\"5927\">The AI agent has access to tools on your computer and your codebase. It can see where the menu should fit and create it. That might have taken someone an hour or two before. Now it takes a minute to type the instruction, and they can move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5929\" data-end=\"6215\">Engineers tell me much of their day is now spent typing instructions to AI agents. They still review the code, but it’s changed their workflow. It’s been unsettling for some. And people in other industries — journalism, finance, law, medicine — aren’t quite experiencing that shift yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6217\" data-end=\"6373\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6217\" data-end=\"6237\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Heather, what changed things for me was when Anthropic launched Claude CoWork. That’s when I started connecting documents and services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6375\" data-end=\"6733\">For example, my wife and I run a membership program. When someone joins, we need an entry in a Google Sheet with their member number. I used to manually assign numbers. I asked Claude to write code that checks for new memberships and updates the sheet. It walked me through deploying it on a cloud service, getting an API key — basically automating the task.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6735\" data-end=\"6926\">We’ve done this for half a dozen household processes. It’s fundamentally changed how I think about these tools. Do you feel like you’re actually saving time — or just creating different work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6928\" data-end=\"7142\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6928\" data-end=\"6946\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Nitasha describes it — and I’m stealing this — as removing friction that maybe shouldn’t have existed in the first place. It’s not that we’re cheating time. It’s that we’re fixing broken systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7144\" data-end=\"7317\">Optimistically, I feel like I’m saving time. But then I think, “Now that I have extra time, what other project could I try?” Suddenly it’s 11 p.m., and I’m scrolling TikTok.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7319\" data-end=\"7419\">And you still have to check its work. You can’t fully trust it. So there’s time added on at the end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7421\" data-end=\"7525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7421\" data-end=\"7441\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How do we know what friction was good and necessary — and what we should eliminate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7527\" data-end=\"7766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7527\" data-end=\"7544\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> I find it infinitely frustrating that all the systems we use daily aren’t interoperable. Why do I need separate apps for Slack, Signal, iMessage, Google Sheets? Why do I have to reformat information from a court database?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7768\" data-end=\"7959\">As much as we benefit from having the world’s information at our fingertips, we’ve also created enormous busywork because there’s no standardized format and companies maintain walled gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7961\" data-end=\"8058\">Anything that benefits the user — rather than the corporation that owns the data — is a positive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8060\" data-end=\"8219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8060\" data-end=\"8080\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Years ago, Yahoo released Yahoo Pipes to connect tools. It never quite worked. Now, these AI tools seem to be fulfilling that old promise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8221\" data-end=\"8370\">We’re talking about advances in artificial intelligence and how people are using them. We’re joined by Nitasha Tiku, Heather Kelly, and Maxwell Zeff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8372\" data-end=\"8470\">We want to hear from you. How are you using these tools? 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8455\" data-end=\"8469\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8472\" data-end=\"8518\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/article>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, February 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Newer AI tools have begun to act less like “a souped up search engine and more of a junior staffer” observes one industry watcher. Software developers are deploying Claude Code. Small business people are using AI to work out logistics. At home, people are deploying AI to organize to-do lists, plan vacations, and create meal plans. But what are the risks? We talk about how AI is evolving, and how to think about the ethics of using these tools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex flex-col text-sm pb-25\">\n\u003carticle class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:b57a5f0c-1e2a-4b53-bef7-b5686fe0667c-0\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-2\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:--spacing(4)] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(6)] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:--spacing(16)] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"e4c55eb1-99eb-4d7a-a8a1-8ed16354306b\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-2\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden first:pt-[1px]\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"550\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I know many of our listeners are deeply skeptical of AI, and I get it. People worry about the motives of the companies deploying these tools. They raise concerns about environmental impacts, now and in the future. They believe no one really wants to use these tools, that they’re being foisted on us by the biggest tech companies. I’m sympathetic to many of these concerns. I’ve covered technology for too long to imagine that AI will be harmless, utopian, or even necessarily a net good.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"552\" data-end=\"1178\">But I also think many people who aren’t immersed in this world have an outdated model of how AI tools work and what they’re good — and bad — at. So to begin this discussion, here’s my simple heuristic: I think these tools are bad to very bad at human things — like making art, writing interesting prose, or surprising us with insight — despite what AI boosters might hope. However, they are now astounding at what I’d call “computer things”: taking a huge dataset and pulling out summaries or outliers, coding a small connector between internet services, helping with annoyingly complex data questions about company logistics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1180\" data-end=\"1299\">They’re not oracles. But given ground-truth documents and data to work with, they’re frighteningly good at these tasks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1301\" data-end=\"1633\">Today, we’re going to talk about this emerging set of uses for AI — and then try to reconcile some of the worries and risks I just mentioned. Whatever else happens — bubble burst or AI breakout — I suspect that when someone writes the future timeline of the world, it’ll say, right next to whatever happened: “San Francisco, 2020s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1635\" data-end=\"1659\">So let’s learn about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1661\" data-end=\"1772\">We’ve got Maxwell Zeff, senior writer for \u003cem data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1710\">Wired\u003c/em>. He covers artificial intelligence for the magazine. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1774\" data-end=\"1813\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1774\" data-end=\"1791\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1815\" data-end=\"1970\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1815\" data-end=\"1835\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Nitasha Tiku, a journalist covering technology, formerly with \u003cem data-start=\"1913\" data-end=\"1934\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>, \u003cem data-start=\"1936\" data-end=\"1943\">Wired\u003c/em>, and \u003cem data-start=\"1949\" data-end=\"1960\">The Verge\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1972\" data-end=\"2011\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1972\" data-end=\"1989\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2013\" data-end=\"2216\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2013\" data-end=\"2033\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Heather Kelly, another technology journalist focusing on the intersection of tech and everyday life, formerly with \u003cem data-start=\"2163\" data-end=\"2184\">The Washington Post\u003c/em> and CNN. Thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2218\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2218\" data-end=\"2236\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2442\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2276\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Nitasha, let’s go through a little timeline. I’m always kind of shocked — and was shocked again this morning — that ChatGPT came out in December 2022. Is that right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2444\" data-end=\"2476\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2444\" data-end=\"2461\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> November 30th.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2478\" data-end=\"2512\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2478\" data-end=\"2498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There you go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2514\" data-end=\"2577\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2514\" data-end=\"2531\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Sadly, I have these dates etched in my brain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2579\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2579\" data-end=\"2599\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Back then, it was basically just a chatbot. How were people using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2688\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> I’d say people used it as a kind of souped-up Google. It was more direct at getting you the links you wanted. It gave you factual information in the format you wanted, without forcing you to sift through ten blue links. And I think people were also just tickled by the human-like quality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2979\" data-end=\"3022\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2979\" data-end=\"2999\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> The computer can talk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3024\" data-end=\"3261\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3024\" data-end=\"3041\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> Yes. And it’s chatty — it wants to talk. It’s easier to interact with than Boolean logic, putting things in quotes and plus signs. It felt closer to that sci-fi dream of a perfect little robot that will do your bidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3263\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3263\" data-end=\"3283\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Heather, as time went on, it wasn’t just OpenAI, which makes ChatGPT. Here in San Francisco, Anthropic and Claude became real competitors, at least locally. How did you see people’s use of these tools evolve over the last couple of years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3723\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3542\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Instead of just complex searches, people started asking, “What can you actually do for me?” ChatGPT divides this into asking, doing, and expressing — three main ways people use it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3725\" data-end=\"4083\">This might be San Francisco brain, but there’s a lot of coding you can do with Claude and ChatGPT. There’s a lot of workplace productivity stuff. But there’s also: “I don’t want to write this cover letter,” or “I need help with my essay.” There’s a thin line between cheating and getting assistance, but people were definitely using it for that kind of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4085\" data-end=\"4361\">Then, as people fed it more information and it learned more about them, it started becoming a kind of database of their thoughts and lives. That led to more introspection, bigger questions — and in some cases, what we might call unhealthy relationships with these AI chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4363\" data-end=\"4682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4363\" data-end=\"4383\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Maxwell, let’s talk about coding. Coding is basically talking to computers in their native language. Now you can just talk to them in English. What have you seen recently — especially in the last few months? Among people I know, there’s this sense that December 2025 marked some kind of sea change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4684\" data-end=\"4966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4684\" data-end=\"4701\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> There’s definitely a notion that December 2025 was an inflection point in AI model capabilities, particularly for software engineers. The people I talk to at tech companies and AI labs say the way they do their work has changed dramatically in the last six months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4968\" data-end=\"5142\">This is one of the most fascinating turning points in the AI era since ChatGPT launched, because software engineers are the first group seeing their work meaningfully change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5462\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5164\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There was a big survey of AI deployments in Fortune 500 companies, and most companies said it didn’t help — no productivity increase. But just months later, AI companies themselves are saying, “We don’t code anymore. We’re using Claude to make the next version of Claude.” That’s wildly different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5464\" data-end=\"5495\">Walk us through how that works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5683\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5514\">Maxwell Zeff:\u003c/strong> A good way to think about these new AI coding agents is that you can ask them in plain English: “Hey, I need a new feature for this website.” For example, “Add a menu.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5685\" data-end=\"5927\">The AI agent has access to tools on your computer and your codebase. It can see where the menu should fit and create it. That might have taken someone an hour or two before. Now it takes a minute to type the instruction, and they can move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5929\" data-end=\"6215\">Engineers tell me much of their day is now spent typing instructions to AI agents. They still review the code, but it’s changed their workflow. It’s been unsettling for some. And people in other industries — journalism, finance, law, medicine — aren’t quite experiencing that shift yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6217\" data-end=\"6373\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6217\" data-end=\"6237\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Heather, what changed things for me was when Anthropic launched Claude CoWork. That’s when I started connecting documents and services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6375\" data-end=\"6733\">For example, my wife and I run a membership program. When someone joins, we need an entry in a Google Sheet with their member number. I used to manually assign numbers. I asked Claude to write code that checks for new memberships and updates the sheet. It walked me through deploying it on a cloud service, getting an API key — basically automating the task.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6735\" data-end=\"6926\">We’ve done this for half a dozen household processes. It’s fundamentally changed how I think about these tools. Do you feel like you’re actually saving time — or just creating different work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6928\" data-end=\"7142\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6928\" data-end=\"6946\">Heather Kelly:\u003c/strong> Nitasha describes it — and I’m stealing this — as removing friction that maybe shouldn’t have existed in the first place. It’s not that we’re cheating time. It’s that we’re fixing broken systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7144\" data-end=\"7317\">Optimistically, I feel like I’m saving time. But then I think, “Now that I have extra time, what other project could I try?” Suddenly it’s 11 p.m., and I’m scrolling TikTok.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7319\" data-end=\"7419\">And you still have to check its work. You can’t fully trust it. So there’s time added on at the end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7421\" data-end=\"7525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7421\" data-end=\"7441\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How do we know what friction was good and necessary — and what we should eliminate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7527\" data-end=\"7766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7527\" data-end=\"7544\">Nitasha Tiku:\u003c/strong> I find it infinitely frustrating that all the systems we use daily aren’t interoperable. Why do I need separate apps for Slack, Signal, iMessage, Google Sheets? Why do I have to reformat information from a court database?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7768\" data-end=\"7959\">As much as we benefit from having the world’s information at our fingertips, we’ve also created enormous busywork because there’s no standardized format and companies maintain walled gardens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7961\" data-end=\"8058\">Anything that benefits the user — rather than the corporation that owns the data — is a positive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8060\" data-end=\"8219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8060\" data-end=\"8080\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Years ago, Yahoo released Yahoo Pipes to connect tools. It never quite worked. Now, these AI tools seem to be fulfilling that old promise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8221\" data-end=\"8370\">We’re talking about advances in artificial intelligence and how people are using them. We’re joined by Nitasha Tiku, Heather Kelly, and Maxwell Zeff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8372\" data-end=\"8470\">We want to hear from you. How are you using these tools? 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8455\" data-end=\"8469\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8472\" data-end=\"8518\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/article>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"headline": "How Bruce Lee Helped Shape Asian American Culture",
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"bio": "\"Water Mirror Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America\" - Chang is also the author of \"We Gon' Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation,\" \"Who We Be: The Colorization of America\" and \"Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation\""
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5Nzk2MzI2MTEx",
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