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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Children as young as 12 can legally work on California’s farms, picking strawberries and pruning blueberry bushes along with a host of other physically demanding jobs. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Robert J. Lopez spoke with 61 children who work in the fields of the Salinas, Santa Maria, San Joaquin and Pajaro valleys. They described unsafe and unsanitary conditions, extreme heat — and a fear of speaking up, because they can’t afford to lose their jobs. Lopez reports that in California, “enforcement of child labor laws has been inconsistent, the number of workplace safety inspections and citations issued to employers have dropped and repeat offenders were not fined for hundreds of violations of pesticide safety laws.” He joins us to share his reporting, and how the state is responding to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Picking strawberries, apples, cabbages or kale in California’s fields and orchards is hard work — sometimes punishing and dangerous when the weather and heat are bad, with heavy loads to lift and quotas to meet. And yet children are doing this work alongside adults. California allows kids as young as twelve to work in agriculture. But according to an investigation by Capital & Main in partnership with the Los Angeles Times, the state is failing to ensure the children’s health and safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We learn more this hour with Robert J. Lopez, Pulitzer Prize–winning independent journalist and fellow at the McGraw Center for Business Journalism. Robert, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also with us is Erica Diaz Cervantes, a former underage farmworker, now senior policy advocate at the Central Coast Alliance United for a Sustainable Economy, or CAUSE. Erica, welcome to you as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. Happy to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you here. So Robert, how many kids do you estimate work as farmworkers in California’s fields? And I say “estimate,” right, for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it is an estimate because there is really no tracking that’s done comprehensively by government agencies. The work is very transitory, so it’s very hard to know exactly how many young people are out there — but certainly several thousand in California. And elsewhere across the nation, there are others, but I focus solely on California. That’s really about the best estimate we came up with in my talks with experts, examining various studies that have been done by the federal government, surveys and things like that. So I think that’s a fair estimate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And are most of these young people migrants? U.S.-born? What can you tell us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, nearly all the young people I spoke to were born in the United States. Their parents immigrated primarily from Mexico, and these are mixed-status families. By that I mean the children are born here and citizens, and many of the parents are not documented but also work alongside their sons and daughters in the fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Doing what kind of work exactly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It varies. They pick strawberries, as you said. They plant broccoli, plant lettuce, pick broccoli, pick lettuce, pick blueberries. They work in orchards with citrus fruit, stone fruit. They may harvest garlic in the San Joaquin Valley. There are various jobs. And when they’re not planting or picking, they try to get any other work they can get, such as pulling weeds from fields or removing old plastic tarps. Farmworking is not a forty-hour-a-week job. It’s seasonal and dependent on many factors. So families need to survive, and they’ll do whatever work they can get when it’s available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it that California allows children as young as twelve to work in agriculture like this, when child laborers in other industries are usually required to be fourteen or older?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most instances, California requires minors to be fourteen years old to work. But in agriculture, a child can be as young as twelve and work up to forty hours a week when school is not in session. And the reason is really a complex one that lies in federal law. The Fair Labor Standards Act, which was passed in the late 1930s, initially didn’t include farmworkers. Farmworkers were only included years later, in the 1960s. So it’s really rooted in federal law and goes back several generations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in some states, there is no minimum age. California actually has some of the strongest workplace safety laws in the United States — including outdoor heat laws, child labor regulations, pesticide safety laws. But as I found out in my investigation, many of these are not being enforced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. You would think if the state allows such young workers, the expectation would be that they’d be vigilant about enforcing child labor laws, since kids are more vulnerable in workplaces — power-wise, and then more sensitive to conditions in the fields. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You would think so. But it’s very difficult when, for example, the Bureau of Field Enforcement — this is a state agency that is the frontline unit for enforcing not only child labor laws but wage and hour laws. So when you have fifty-four inspectors, which is what their data showed as of May, responsible for covering the entire state of California — and not just agriculture but more than a half-dozen industries, including car washes, hotels, retail establishments, warehouses — I mean, you just don’t have enough people to create a physical presence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And many of the researchers I talked to at UC Merced and elsewhere who have studied enforcement actions in labor note that when you’re out there giving citations and inspecting worksites, there’s a deterrent effect. People know inspectors may show up. But when there’s no presence at all, then none of that happens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Erica, I want to turn to you because you started working in the fields when you were twelve. What was it like for you? What do you remember about starting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thank you. Like you mentioned, I started working in the fields with my parents when I was as young as twelve years old. I remember working with my mom — we worked picking green beans. That was our first job. And it wasn’t just myself; it was my brother, who was eleven at the time, and my older sister, who was fourteen. And so it was the three of us working alongside my mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I remember from that summer is just that it was extremely hot. We were covered in multiple layers of clothing to protect us from the exposure of toxic chemicals as well as heat exposure. I remember feeling this pressure to fill up our buckets with green beans as quickly as we could and get it to the truck and make sure our cards were stamped — they were marking the amount of buckets we were filling up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that same job we also picked green tomatoes, and I remember those buckets being extremely heavy. I often tried to carry it myself down these really rugged dirt pathways, but it was a struggle. So oftentimes it was my brother and I carrying about a thirty-pound bucket of tomatoes and trying to pick as quickly as we could to try to make enough money for that day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah — pick as quickly as you can. Because what was the culture in these workplaces? What were the expectations? How did you feel you were treated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I just remember feeling really intimidated by the supervisors, by the crew leaders. There was constant pressure to continue working as quickly as you can. Anytime we tried to take any breaks or even go get some water, it was really discouraged. And we were even reprimanded for doing so because we were wasting productivity time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times my mom would try to help us in terms of being able to match the pace of the rest of the crew so we weren’t falling behind. And I just remember feeling really scared every time we saw the supervisor’s truck come and inspect the fields. Every time he would walk around the crew and watch how we were picking the crops, I felt a really deep sense of fear — like, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to pick as fast as I can\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Even though my back was hurting, my knees were hurting, and I felt exhausted already by, you know, eleven a.m. The heat was starting to pick up. I felt like I couldn’t rest at all because I was scared of the punishment we would get if we didn’t continue to pick quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you were paid per box or per bucket, am I right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So for the buckets, I don’t recall how much they were paying us at the time, but I remember it wasn’t a lot. I remember we had to pick multiple buckets and boxes to be able to earn enough and support my family. And I just remember at the time thinking, you know, I need to work really hard and work really fast and make sure that no attention is being drawn to us — negative attention — because there was this really strong power dynamic between us, being the farmworkers working in the fields, and the supervisors and employers managing the workplaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Robert, in terms of the things Erica is describing — first of all, how much are the kids you’re talking to today being paid? And does it meet California’s laws around minimum wage, for example?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, first of all, most of the youth I spoke to who worked for piece rate — which is by the unit, as Erica described — shared similar stories: intimidation, worry that if they don’t work fast enough they’re going to get their parents fired, and then they get fired. And in fact that did happen with one young man I interviewed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they told the same types of stories time and again. And the rates vary depending on a lot of factors — the season, the time of year, how much fruit there is in a field. But in some cases, young workers were getting paid $2.40 a box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two dollars and forty cents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a box of strawberries. And when I say a box, it’s a cardboard box that holds eight of those cartons you buy in a supermarket, for anywhere from five to seven dollars a carton. So eight of those. So they’re getting $2.40. And in some cases, that’s all they got.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the issue is, if you’re an adult, strong, and you can work fast and you’re experienced and a veteran, you can pick a lot of boxes. But young people are not as strong; they don’t work as fast — just as Erica described with her own experience. So as a result, there would be times when they didn’t fill many boxes. And so at the end of the day, they wouldn’t earn the equivalent of minimum wage, which would be a violation of state child labor and labor laws. Because under state law, piece-rate workers, regardless of industry, have to earn the equivalent of at least minimum wage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when that doesn’t happen, that’s a violation of state law. And I heard countless stories from young people — not just in the fields but also in orchards, filling five-hundred-pound crates with grapefruit, lemons, oranges. I heard countless stories in which they talked about earning wages that did not equal minimum wage. This is something I heard from the very beginning when I first started doing my interviews throughout the course of the campaign.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about child farmworkers in California and shining a spotlight on the issues they face. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Children as young as 12 can legally work on California’s farms, picking strawberries and pruning blueberry bushes along with a host of other physically demanding jobs. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Robert J. Lopez spoke with 61 children who work in the fields of the Salinas, Santa Maria, San Joaquin and Pajaro valleys. They described unsafe and unsanitary conditions, extreme heat — and a fear of speaking up, because they can’t afford to lose their jobs. Lopez reports that in California, “enforcement of child labor laws has been inconsistent, the number of workplace safety inspections and citations issued to employers have dropped and repeat offenders were not fined for hundreds of violations of pesticide safety laws.” He joins us to share his reporting, and how the state is responding to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Picking strawberries, apples, cabbages or kale in California’s fields and orchards is hard work — sometimes punishing and dangerous when the weather and heat are bad, with heavy loads to lift and quotas to meet. And yet children are doing this work alongside adults. California allows kids as young as twelve to work in agriculture. But according to an investigation by Capital & Main in partnership with the Los Angeles Times, the state is failing to ensure the children’s health and safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We learn more this hour with Robert J. Lopez, Pulitzer Prize–winning independent journalist and fellow at the McGraw Center for Business Journalism. Robert, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also with us is Erica Diaz Cervantes, a former underage farmworker, now senior policy advocate at the Central Coast Alliance United for a Sustainable Economy, or CAUSE. Erica, welcome to you as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. Happy to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you here. So Robert, how many kids do you estimate work as farmworkers in California’s fields? And I say “estimate,” right, for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it is an estimate because there is really no tracking that’s done comprehensively by government agencies. The work is very transitory, so it’s very hard to know exactly how many young people are out there — but certainly several thousand in California. And elsewhere across the nation, there are others, but I focus solely on California. That’s really about the best estimate we came up with in my talks with experts, examining various studies that have been done by the federal government, surveys and things like that. So I think that’s a fair estimate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And are most of these young people migrants? U.S.-born? What can you tell us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, nearly all the young people I spoke to were born in the United States. Their parents immigrated primarily from Mexico, and these are mixed-status families. By that I mean the children are born here and citizens, and many of the parents are not documented but also work alongside their sons and daughters in the fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Doing what kind of work exactly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It varies. They pick strawberries, as you said. They plant broccoli, plant lettuce, pick broccoli, pick lettuce, pick blueberries. They work in orchards with citrus fruit, stone fruit. They may harvest garlic in the San Joaquin Valley. There are various jobs. And when they’re not planting or picking, they try to get any other work they can get, such as pulling weeds from fields or removing old plastic tarps. Farmworking is not a forty-hour-a-week job. It’s seasonal and dependent on many factors. So families need to survive, and they’ll do whatever work they can get when it’s available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it that California allows children as young as twelve to work in agriculture like this, when child laborers in other industries are usually required to be fourteen or older?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most instances, California requires minors to be fourteen years old to work. But in agriculture, a child can be as young as twelve and work up to forty hours a week when school is not in session. And the reason is really a complex one that lies in federal law. The Fair Labor Standards Act, which was passed in the late 1930s, initially didn’t include farmworkers. Farmworkers were only included years later, in the 1960s. So it’s really rooted in federal law and goes back several generations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in some states, there is no minimum age. California actually has some of the strongest workplace safety laws in the United States — including outdoor heat laws, child labor regulations, pesticide safety laws. But as I found out in my investigation, many of these are not being enforced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. You would think if the state allows such young workers, the expectation would be that they’d be vigilant about enforcing child labor laws, since kids are more vulnerable in workplaces — power-wise, and then more sensitive to conditions in the fields. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You would think so. But it’s very difficult when, for example, the Bureau of Field Enforcement — this is a state agency that is the frontline unit for enforcing not only child labor laws but wage and hour laws. So when you have fifty-four inspectors, which is what their data showed as of May, responsible for covering the entire state of California — and not just agriculture but more than a half-dozen industries, including car washes, hotels, retail establishments, warehouses — I mean, you just don’t have enough people to create a physical presence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And many of the researchers I talked to at UC Merced and elsewhere who have studied enforcement actions in labor note that when you’re out there giving citations and inspecting worksites, there’s a deterrent effect. People know inspectors may show up. But when there’s no presence at all, then none of that happens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Erica, I want to turn to you because you started working in the fields when you were twelve. What was it like for you? What do you remember about starting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thank you. Like you mentioned, I started working in the fields with my parents when I was as young as twelve years old. I remember working with my mom — we worked picking green beans. That was our first job. And it wasn’t just myself; it was my brother, who was eleven at the time, and my older sister, who was fourteen. And so it was the three of us working alongside my mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I remember from that summer is just that it was extremely hot. We were covered in multiple layers of clothing to protect us from the exposure of toxic chemicals as well as heat exposure. I remember feeling this pressure to fill up our buckets with green beans as quickly as we could and get it to the truck and make sure our cards were stamped — they were marking the amount of buckets we were filling up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that same job we also picked green tomatoes, and I remember those buckets being extremely heavy. I often tried to carry it myself down these really rugged dirt pathways, but it was a struggle. So oftentimes it was my brother and I carrying about a thirty-pound bucket of tomatoes and trying to pick as quickly as we could to try to make enough money for that day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah — pick as quickly as you can. Because what was the culture in these workplaces? What were the expectations? How did you feel you were treated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I just remember feeling really intimidated by the supervisors, by the crew leaders. There was constant pressure to continue working as quickly as you can. Anytime we tried to take any breaks or even go get some water, it was really discouraged. And we were even reprimanded for doing so because we were wasting productivity time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times my mom would try to help us in terms of being able to match the pace of the rest of the crew so we weren’t falling behind. And I just remember feeling really scared every time we saw the supervisor’s truck come and inspect the fields. Every time he would walk around the crew and watch how we were picking the crops, I felt a really deep sense of fear — like, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to pick as fast as I can\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Even though my back was hurting, my knees were hurting, and I felt exhausted already by, you know, eleven a.m. The heat was starting to pick up. I felt like I couldn’t rest at all because I was scared of the punishment we would get if we didn’t continue to pick quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you were paid per box or per bucket, am I right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So for the buckets, I don’t recall how much they were paying us at the time, but I remember it wasn’t a lot. I remember we had to pick multiple buckets and boxes to be able to earn enough and support my family. And I just remember at the time thinking, you know, I need to work really hard and work really fast and make sure that no attention is being drawn to us — negative attention — because there was this really strong power dynamic between us, being the farmworkers working in the fields, and the supervisors and employers managing the workplaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Robert, in terms of the things Erica is describing — first of all, how much are the kids you’re talking to today being paid? And does it meet California’s laws around minimum wage, for example?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, first of all, most of the youth I spoke to who worked for piece rate — which is by the unit, as Erica described — shared similar stories: intimidation, worry that if they don’t work fast enough they’re going to get their parents fired, and then they get fired. And in fact that did happen with one young man I interviewed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they told the same types of stories time and again. And the rates vary depending on a lot of factors — the season, the time of year, how much fruit there is in a field. But in some cases, young workers were getting paid $2.40 a box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two dollars and forty cents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a box of strawberries. And when I say a box, it’s a cardboard box that holds eight of those cartons you buy in a supermarket, for anywhere from five to seven dollars a carton. So eight of those. So they’re getting $2.40. And in some cases, that’s all they got.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the issue is, if you’re an adult, strong, and you can work fast and you’re experienced and a veteran, you can pick a lot of boxes. But young people are not as strong; they don’t work as fast — just as Erica described with her own experience. So as a result, there would be times when they didn’t fill many boxes. And so at the end of the day, they wouldn’t earn the equivalent of minimum wage, which would be a violation of state child labor and labor laws. Because under state law, piece-rate workers, regardless of industry, have to earn the equivalent of at least minimum wage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when that doesn’t happen, that’s a violation of state law. And I heard countless stories from young people — not just in the fields but also in orchards, filling five-hundred-pound crates with grapefruit, lemons, oranges. I heard countless stories in which they talked about earning wages that did not equal minimum wage. This is something I heard from the very beginning when I first started doing my interviews throughout the course of the campaign.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about child farmworkers in California and shining a spotlight on the issues they face. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In California, mobile homes make up to 6% of the state’s housing stock. With as many as 300,000 homes in 5,000 mobile home parks in the state, they play a critical role in providing affordable housing. But state laws and efforts by for-profit developers to buy up mobile home communities are putting this kind of housing at risk. We talk to experts about the challenges mobile home owners face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In California, mobile homes make up, say, six percent of the state’s housing stock, with as many as three hundred thousand homes and five thousand mobile home parks in the state. These places are a crucial part of the state’s affordable housing picture. Though few have been built in recent decades, the mobile home parks that do exist are facing pressure from private equity firms that have found ways to squeeze a few more dollars out of people on the lower end of the income scale. But residents who’ve often been in a community for years are fighting back too to preserve their places in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us to help us understand the issues that mobile home park residents face, we’ve got Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with the California Rural Law Center. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Good morning. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for joining us. We’ve got Bruce Stanton, general counsel for the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Good morning. Thanks. Good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to have you. And we’ve got Randy Keller, who’s the manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperation Development. Welcome, Randy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Randy Keller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning. Thank you for having me on your show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Mariah, let’s go with you first. As a senior litigator there at the Rural Law Center, you’ve been working with mobile home communities for quite some time, over a decade. What are the kinds of communities that you end up representing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you. So California Rural Legal Assistance is a statewide nonprofit legal aid. We’ve been around for about sixty years assisting rural Californians with all sorts of issues, including housing. My clients tend to be on the, on the margins of, when it comes to homeownerships in terms of, economics. So we typically represent farm workers, residents with a fixed income, seniors, folks that are at or below the two hundred percent of the poverty line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what are the kinds of economics of the communities that these folks are living in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So, traditionally, mobile home parks have been one of the last, you know, kind of bastions of affordable housing throughout the country and across California. You know, there’s currently over three hundred and seventy-five thousand mobile home park spaces in California representing about five thousand parks. And, typically, the folks in these communities are, you know, families, folks living on fixed incomes, a lot of veterans and seniors, and folks that have been able to have access to homeownership because mobile homes have typically been fairly affordable. You know, I’ve had many clients that have acquired their homes directly from the prior owner for under ten thousand dollars or around ten thousand dollars. And the clients that I represent, they’re typically living in mobile homes that are from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, and are more of an aging housing stock.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And in this case, okay, they own the home. But by that, you mean they literally own the building — like, the four walls. Wherever that home is, they don’t own the land, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most circumstances, yes. When we’re talking about parks, they are typically renting the property that is beneath the home, but they do own the home. The thing that makes mobile home parks different is that the home, despite the name, is not usually movable. So they own an asset that is fixed in place, but they don’t own the land that it’s affixed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, Bruce Stanton, you know, there are all kinds of different mobile home communities, each with their own particularities. What are mobile home communities in the Bay Area like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, thanks. And I would just say Mariah really, I think, explained well what sort of an industry we have here. Parks can range from as small as ten to twenty spaces to as large as over eight hundred spaces. You know, typically, a park has common area facilities such as clubhouse, swimming pool, sauna, laundry rooms. There’s gonna be overflow or guest parking in most parks. Sometimes there’s special amenities provided like a dog run or something, and there’s a few parks that even have very unique features such as a house and an older building that’s part of the park property. But what we are finding is there are less and less mom-and-pop park owners and an increasing number of larger corporations, some of them even out of state, that are acquiring parks because they’re seen as a real cash flow bonus for them — you know, that the homeowners are basically renting dirt on which they place their personal property structure that they have, you know, complete obligation to repair and keep up. They pay mortgage and, you know, loan fees, whereas the park’s responsibility is the infrastructure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are those companies — I’ve been wondering — so are those companies starting to vertically integrate? Like, do they offer loans now too in addition to renting the thing? Or are they pretty much sticking with that traditional business model of just renting the dirt, as you put it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are pretty much sticking to the traditional model, but in the process of that, they’re looking for ways to increase cash flow. And if they’re purchasing a park in a rent-stabilized jurisdiction — which there are currently just over one hundred cities and counties throughout California that have some form of mobile home rent stabilization — they’re looking for ways to decontrol the spaces. You know, that could be, in the most extreme case, an eviction or otherwise challenging the ordinance. Or something that Mariah and I are all too familiar with is filing petitions or applications for fair return under the ordinances, seeking to increase beyond what the annual rent adjustments the ordinance allows are, by saying, you know, we’re not getting a fair return, we’re not keeping up. And sometimes these petitions get filed literally within months of the new park owner taking ownership, which is pretty interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So do all these mobile home parks — are they all subject to some kind of rent stabilization or rent control, or just some subset of them? And what is the subset of them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There is no state rent regulation for mobile home parks. It’s a creature of local regulation by city or county. And as I mentioned, there’s literally about, at this point, maybe a hundred six or a hundred and seven such ordinances. I don’t have a breakdown at my fingertips for the number of spaces that covers, but most of the ordinances are located in the coastal, higher-density jurisdictions where there are more parks. For example, I think San Jose has the most parks within its city limits — it has sixty-five parks. The Central Valley area, the more conservative, property-rights-centric area, is where there is no rent stabilization, and those residents basically are subject to paying whatever the park owner says they want.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the problem is mobility. These are — the key is these are captive folks. You know, if the rent goes up, it’s not like you’re renting an apartment or a condominium and you can just pack up and move down the road. Mobile homes are really immobile homes in immobile home parks, and the courts have recognized the captivity of mobile home residents. There’s one famous quote from a Ninth Circuit court opinion that says the park owners have the residents “over a barrel.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about mobile homes, a critical component of the affordable housing picture in California, including here in the Bay Area. Joined by Bruce Stanton, general counsel with Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; Mariah Thompson, a senior litigator with California Rural Law Center; Randy Keller, whose manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development. We want to hear from you too. Maybe you live in one of the Bay Area’s many mobile home communities. What are the sort of joys and challenges of living there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s bring in Mary Currie, who’s a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, just tell us a little bit about your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s a sixty-three-acre property here in Novato, and it started as a mobile home park back in the sixties. And in nineteen ninety-seven, the city of Novato took ownership — took title to the property — which is a little different than most mobile home parks. I think we’re the only one owned by a city here in California. But we have three hundred and thirteen units and about four hundred and twenty-five people. And it’s a community — capital bold “community.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Capital C. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And it’s really, it’s an amazing place to live. I was attracted to moving here. I lived in San Anselmo for a long time, and I needed to downsize and generate some funds to help take care of my mother. And it was just a perfect fit for me. I’ve been here for about four and a half years. And we have a lot of people that have been here for thirty or more years. I mean, it’s really an amazing place. It’s filled with a lot of different backgrounds. We’ve got, you know, teachers, nurses, architects — a range of professionals. And one thing that’s very interesting here is that ninety-one percent of our residents, in a survey that was done two years ago, are low income. Marin County low income is about a hundred and nine thousand dollars a year for one person. So we have a lot of people living right on the edge, check to check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our community is over fifty-five. And this place is so amazing because of the commitment that people have to bringing interesting programs. One of the recent ones is we have a park market. We connected with a nonprofit called ExtraFood, and we provide food four days a week through a volunteer program here in the park where people can come get food that is donated by various markets in the area. And that’s bringing people about a hundred and fifty or more dollars a week to their food budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those are the kind of services we need here. We’ve got lectures, exercise classes, and a swimming pool. I mean, this place is amazing. I mean, I’m always pinching myself. I’m out walking in the morning, and it’s just such a great place to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking about mobile homes, this critical component of the affordable housing picture in California. Joined by Mary Curry, who is a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. We’ve got Randy Keller, manufactured home parks acquisitions and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development; Bruce Stanton, general counsel with the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; and Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with California Rural Law Center. Of course, we want to invite you in as well. Would you move into a mobile home? Maybe you’re in a mobile home community now. Let us know how life is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In California, mobile homes make up to 6% of the state’s housing stock. With as many as 300,000 homes in 5,000 mobile home parks in the state, they play a critical role in providing affordable housing. But state laws and efforts by for-profit developers to buy up mobile home communities are putting this kind of housing at risk. We talk to experts about the challenges mobile home owners face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In California, mobile homes make up, say, six percent of the state’s housing stock, with as many as three hundred thousand homes and five thousand mobile home parks in the state. These places are a crucial part of the state’s affordable housing picture. Though few have been built in recent decades, the mobile home parks that do exist are facing pressure from private equity firms that have found ways to squeeze a few more dollars out of people on the lower end of the income scale. But residents who’ve often been in a community for years are fighting back too to preserve their places in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us to help us understand the issues that mobile home park residents face, we’ve got Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with the California Rural Law Center. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Good morning. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for joining us. We’ve got Bruce Stanton, general counsel for the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Good morning. Thanks. Good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to have you. And we’ve got Randy Keller, who’s the manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperation Development. Welcome, Randy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Randy Keller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning. Thank you for having me on your show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Mariah, let’s go with you first. As a senior litigator there at the Rural Law Center, you’ve been working with mobile home communities for quite some time, over a decade. What are the kinds of communities that you end up representing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you. So California Rural Legal Assistance is a statewide nonprofit legal aid. We’ve been around for about sixty years assisting rural Californians with all sorts of issues, including housing. My clients tend to be on the, on the margins of, when it comes to homeownerships in terms of, economics. So we typically represent farm workers, residents with a fixed income, seniors, folks that are at or below the two hundred percent of the poverty line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what are the kinds of economics of the communities that these folks are living in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So, traditionally, mobile home parks have been one of the last, you know, kind of bastions of affordable housing throughout the country and across California. You know, there’s currently over three hundred and seventy-five thousand mobile home park spaces in California representing about five thousand parks. And, typically, the folks in these communities are, you know, families, folks living on fixed incomes, a lot of veterans and seniors, and folks that have been able to have access to homeownership because mobile homes have typically been fairly affordable. You know, I’ve had many clients that have acquired their homes directly from the prior owner for under ten thousand dollars or around ten thousand dollars. And the clients that I represent, they’re typically living in mobile homes that are from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, and are more of an aging housing stock.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And in this case, okay, they own the home. But by that, you mean they literally own the building — like, the four walls. Wherever that home is, they don’t own the land, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most circumstances, yes. When we’re talking about parks, they are typically renting the property that is beneath the home, but they do own the home. The thing that makes mobile home parks different is that the home, despite the name, is not usually movable. So they own an asset that is fixed in place, but they don’t own the land that it’s affixed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, Bruce Stanton, you know, there are all kinds of different mobile home communities, each with their own particularities. What are mobile home communities in the Bay Area like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, thanks. And I would just say Mariah really, I think, explained well what sort of an industry we have here. Parks can range from as small as ten to twenty spaces to as large as over eight hundred spaces. You know, typically, a park has common area facilities such as clubhouse, swimming pool, sauna, laundry rooms. There’s gonna be overflow or guest parking in most parks. Sometimes there’s special amenities provided like a dog run or something, and there’s a few parks that even have very unique features such as a house and an older building that’s part of the park property. But what we are finding is there are less and less mom-and-pop park owners and an increasing number of larger corporations, some of them even out of state, that are acquiring parks because they’re seen as a real cash flow bonus for them — you know, that the homeowners are basically renting dirt on which they place their personal property structure that they have, you know, complete obligation to repair and keep up. They pay mortgage and, you know, loan fees, whereas the park’s responsibility is the infrastructure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are those companies — I’ve been wondering — so are those companies starting to vertically integrate? Like, do they offer loans now too in addition to renting the thing? Or are they pretty much sticking with that traditional business model of just renting the dirt, as you put it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are pretty much sticking to the traditional model, but in the process of that, they’re looking for ways to increase cash flow. And if they’re purchasing a park in a rent-stabilized jurisdiction — which there are currently just over one hundred cities and counties throughout California that have some form of mobile home rent stabilization — they’re looking for ways to decontrol the spaces. You know, that could be, in the most extreme case, an eviction or otherwise challenging the ordinance. Or something that Mariah and I are all too familiar with is filing petitions or applications for fair return under the ordinances, seeking to increase beyond what the annual rent adjustments the ordinance allows are, by saying, you know, we’re not getting a fair return, we’re not keeping up. And sometimes these petitions get filed literally within months of the new park owner taking ownership, which is pretty interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So do all these mobile home parks — are they all subject to some kind of rent stabilization or rent control, or just some subset of them? And what is the subset of them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There is no state rent regulation for mobile home parks. It’s a creature of local regulation by city or county. And as I mentioned, there’s literally about, at this point, maybe a hundred six or a hundred and seven such ordinances. I don’t have a breakdown at my fingertips for the number of spaces that covers, but most of the ordinances are located in the coastal, higher-density jurisdictions where there are more parks. For example, I think San Jose has the most parks within its city limits — it has sixty-five parks. The Central Valley area, the more conservative, property-rights-centric area, is where there is no rent stabilization, and those residents basically are subject to paying whatever the park owner says they want.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the problem is mobility. These are — the key is these are captive folks. You know, if the rent goes up, it’s not like you’re renting an apartment or a condominium and you can just pack up and move down the road. Mobile homes are really immobile homes in immobile home parks, and the courts have recognized the captivity of mobile home residents. There’s one famous quote from a Ninth Circuit court opinion that says the park owners have the residents “over a barrel.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about mobile homes, a critical component of the affordable housing picture in California, including here in the Bay Area. Joined by Bruce Stanton, general counsel with Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; Mariah Thompson, a senior litigator with California Rural Law Center; Randy Keller, whose manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development. We want to hear from you too. Maybe you live in one of the Bay Area’s many mobile home communities. What are the sort of joys and challenges of living there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s bring in Mary Currie, who’s a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, just tell us a little bit about your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s a sixty-three-acre property here in Novato, and it started as a mobile home park back in the sixties. And in nineteen ninety-seven, the city of Novato took ownership — took title to the property — which is a little different than most mobile home parks. I think we’re the only one owned by a city here in California. But we have three hundred and thirteen units and about four hundred and twenty-five people. And it’s a community — capital bold “community.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Capital C. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And it’s really, it’s an amazing place to live. I was attracted to moving here. I lived in San Anselmo for a long time, and I needed to downsize and generate some funds to help take care of my mother. And it was just a perfect fit for me. I’ve been here for about four and a half years. And we have a lot of people that have been here for thirty or more years. I mean, it’s really an amazing place. It’s filled with a lot of different backgrounds. We’ve got, you know, teachers, nurses, architects — a range of professionals. And one thing that’s very interesting here is that ninety-one percent of our residents, in a survey that was done two years ago, are low income. Marin County low income is about a hundred and nine thousand dollars a year for one person. So we have a lot of people living right on the edge, check to check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our community is over fifty-five. And this place is so amazing because of the commitment that people have to bringing interesting programs. One of the recent ones is we have a park market. We connected with a nonprofit called ExtraFood, and we provide food four days a week through a volunteer program here in the park where people can come get food that is donated by various markets in the area. And that’s bringing people about a hundred and fifty or more dollars a week to their food budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those are the kind of services we need here. We’ve got lectures, exercise classes, and a swimming pool. I mean, this place is amazing. I mean, I’m always pinching myself. I’m out walking in the morning, and it’s just such a great place to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking about mobile homes, this critical component of the affordable housing picture in California. Joined by Mary Curry, who is a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. We’ve got Randy Keller, manufactured home parks acquisitions and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development; Bruce Stanton, general counsel with the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; and Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with California Rural Law Center. Of course, we want to invite you in as well. Would you move into a mobile home? Maybe you’re in a mobile home community now. Let us know how life is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, December 8 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In groundbreaking experiments with mice, Boston University neuroscientist Steve Ramirez has succeeded in turning memories on and off, even implanting new ones. He says that someday we’ll be able to do the same in humans. But should we? We talk to Ramirez about the ethical dilemma and the personal experience that caused him to consider erasing his own memory. His new book is “How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The science of memory manipulation is farther along than you might think. Scientists have been able to weaken or erase memories — even implant new or false ones — in mice, inspiring sci-fi storylines in films and series like “Severance:”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I acknowledge that henceforth, my access to my memories will be spatially dictated. I will be unable to access outside recollections whilst on Lumen’s severed basement floor, nor retain work memories upon my ascent.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My guest, neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, has played a big role in moving forward memory manipulation in hopes of transforming the treatment of brain disorders. He’s written a book about it — and about the events in his life that caused him to think about changing his own memories. It’s called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Welcome to Forum, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really glad to have you. So where does the science of memory manipulation stand? Can you bring us up to speed generally on what scientists have successfully been able to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. The short of it — and I don’t think it’s too much of a spoiler — is that the answer to how to change a memory is to recall it. To remember the thing you’re trying to change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we’ve learned from decades of neuroscience research is that memory might feel like a video recording of the past that you can rewind again and again, but it’s much more dynamic — much more like a “Save As” file in a Word document. Memory is more flexible, changeable, dynamic than we expected, especially when we recall it. That’s when those changes begin to take place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point being: you can let change happen naturally, or you can have a goal — perhaps change that restores health or well-being to an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So to that end, you can do things like selectively target and erase specific memories?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In mice, yes. In flies, in mice, in rats — some of our model organisms — it’s now possible to find the brain cells that hold an individual memory and tinker with those cells. We can stimulate them to activate the memory, or quiet them to quiet the memory so it won’t pop back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In humans, it’s much more difficult. We don’t know how to truly erase a memory in the human brain. But recalling one — that part is straightforward. I can say, “What did you have for dinner last night?” or “How was celebrating your last birthday?” and you’ll bring that memory online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it depends on the goal — whether it’s simply sharing a story, or actually trying to change the contents of a memory for therapeutic purposes. In mice, certainly possible. In humans, the psychology is trickier.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as you know very well, it’s very possible to implant memories in mice. Can you tell us how you’ve been able to artificially activate a memory and implant a new or false memory in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I started as a graduate student at MIT in 2010, joining Susumu Tonegawa’s lab. The lab had this overarching mission: understand the science of how we learn and remember the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I teamed up with my late friend and day-to-day mentor, Xu Liu, who was designing the genetic engineering tools needed to find specific memories in the rodent brain. Xu and I teamed up quickly, with the collective goal of finding the cells that hold a memory and then tricking just those cells to turn on, to test if that was enough to activate the memory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xu had developed tools to find these cells, and we were shocked that the first big experiment we did — in 2011 — worked. The gist was that Xu had developed tools to find the brain cells holding a memory. First we tricked them to glow green so we could literally see them. Then we activated those glowing cells using optogenetics — “opto” meaning light, “genetics” meaning genetics — so we could make those cells activatable with lasers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was our million-dollar experiment. When we found the cells for one memory and used lasers to nudge them awake, the memory came back. It was the first demonstration of artificially activating a specific memory in the rodent brain. And since then, the last decade has been nothing short of a revolution — activating, changing, erasing, suppressing memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if I’m summarizing it correctly, basically: a mouse had a bad memory in one box. You put that mouse in a completely different box — no bad memories — and it’s happily scampering around. And then you activated the bad memory from the previous box, even though it hadn’t experienced it in the new one, and it froze in total fear?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly what we did. We started by inducing that freezing behavior — like if you heard a loud noise right now, you’d lock in place for a few seconds before fight-or-flight kicks in. It’s a behavioral measure that tells us whether the animal is recalling that negative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a safe environment, the mouse explores. But when we reactivate the negative memory, it stops and freezes for as long as we’re activating the cells. We wanted the most straightforward behavioral measure to test whether we were activating a memory — and once that worked, we could extend the work to more complex memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions about the science of memory manipulation? And would you ever do it — erase, implant, or change a memory if you could? What hopes do you have for these kinds of tools? What concerns?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stepping back a little bit, Steve, can you tell us how important our memories are to who we are and how we act? You’ve called memory nothing less than “the perpetual beating heart of life.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. To me, memory is simply what the brain does. 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I sometimes tend to say in a million words what I could say in a hundred. Xu was the opposite — every word had purpose. He thought before he spoke. I admired that, and I learned so much from that disciplined way of thinking. We were very complementary — a dynamic duo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Boston University. His new book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with him — and you — after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, December 8 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In groundbreaking experiments with mice, Boston University neuroscientist Steve Ramirez has succeeded in turning memories on and off, even implanting new ones. He says that someday we’ll be able to do the same in humans. But should we? We talk to Ramirez about the ethical dilemma and the personal experience that caused him to consider erasing his own memory. His new book is “How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The science of memory manipulation is farther along than you might think. Scientists have been able to weaken or erase memories — even implant new or false ones — in mice, inspiring sci-fi storylines in films and series like “Severance:”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I acknowledge that henceforth, my access to my memories will be spatially dictated. I will be unable to access outside recollections whilst on Lumen’s severed basement floor, nor retain work memories upon my ascent.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My guest, neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, has played a big role in moving forward memory manipulation in hopes of transforming the treatment of brain disorders. He’s written a book about it — and about the events in his life that caused him to think about changing his own memories. It’s called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Welcome to Forum, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really glad to have you. So where does the science of memory manipulation stand? Can you bring us up to speed generally on what scientists have successfully been able to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. The short of it — and I don’t think it’s too much of a spoiler — is that the answer to how to change a memory is to recall it. To remember the thing you’re trying to change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we’ve learned from decades of neuroscience research is that memory might feel like a video recording of the past that you can rewind again and again, but it’s much more dynamic — much more like a “Save As” file in a Word document. Memory is more flexible, changeable, dynamic than we expected, especially when we recall it. That’s when those changes begin to take place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point being: you can let change happen naturally, or you can have a goal — perhaps change that restores health or well-being to an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So to that end, you can do things like selectively target and erase specific memories?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In mice, yes. In flies, in mice, in rats — some of our model organisms — it’s now possible to find the brain cells that hold an individual memory and tinker with those cells. We can stimulate them to activate the memory, or quiet them to quiet the memory so it won’t pop back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In humans, it’s much more difficult. We don’t know how to truly erase a memory in the human brain. But recalling one — that part is straightforward. I can say, “What did you have for dinner last night?” or “How was celebrating your last birthday?” and you’ll bring that memory online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it depends on the goal — whether it’s simply sharing a story, or actually trying to change the contents of a memory for therapeutic purposes. In mice, certainly possible. In humans, the psychology is trickier.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as you know very well, it’s very possible to implant memories in mice. Can you tell us how you’ve been able to artificially activate a memory and implant a new or false memory in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I started as a graduate student at MIT in 2010, joining Susumu Tonegawa’s lab. The lab had this overarching mission: understand the science of how we learn and remember the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I teamed up with my late friend and day-to-day mentor, Xu Liu, who was designing the genetic engineering tools needed to find specific memories in the rodent brain. Xu and I teamed up quickly, with the collective goal of finding the cells that hold a memory and then tricking just those cells to turn on, to test if that was enough to activate the memory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xu had developed tools to find these cells, and we were shocked that the first big experiment we did — in 2011 — worked. The gist was that Xu had developed tools to find the brain cells holding a memory. First we tricked them to glow green so we could literally see them. Then we activated those glowing cells using optogenetics — “opto” meaning light, “genetics” meaning genetics — so we could make those cells activatable with lasers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was our million-dollar experiment. When we found the cells for one memory and used lasers to nudge them awake, the memory came back. It was the first demonstration of artificially activating a specific memory in the rodent brain. And since then, the last decade has been nothing short of a revolution — activating, changing, erasing, suppressing memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if I’m summarizing it correctly, basically: a mouse had a bad memory in one box. You put that mouse in a completely different box — no bad memories — and it’s happily scampering around. And then you activated the bad memory from the previous box, even though it hadn’t experienced it in the new one, and it froze in total fear?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly what we did. We started by inducing that freezing behavior — like if you heard a loud noise right now, you’d lock in place for a few seconds before fight-or-flight kicks in. It’s a behavioral measure that tells us whether the animal is recalling that negative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a safe environment, the mouse explores. But when we reactivate the negative memory, it stops and freezes for as long as we’re activating the cells. We wanted the most straightforward behavioral measure to test whether we were activating a memory — and once that worked, we could extend the work to more complex memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions about the science of memory manipulation? And would you ever do it — erase, implant, or change a memory if you could? What hopes do you have for these kinds of tools? What concerns?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stepping back a little bit, Steve, can you tell us how important our memories are to who we are and how we act? You’ve called memory nothing less than “the perpetual beating heart of life.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. To me, memory is simply what the brain does. And it’s amazing that no matter where you look in nature — algae, single-cell organisms, fruit flies, rodents, dogs, rabbits, humans — everywhere you see biology, you see memory. You see an organism soaking up experience, turning it into biologically meaningful change in the body and brain, and later accessing those changes to bring the memory back to life to make decisions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For humans, memory is the thing that threads and unifies our overall sense of being — our identity. Who we are today is the sum total of the memories and experiences that have sculpted us up to this moment. Memory is the beating heart of life, and in its absence, those features of identity become dramatically impaired very quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask what it was like when you realized those initial mouse experiments worked — that you were able to activate a memory and essentially implant one in a mouse’s brain in a space it had never experienced?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was beside myself — but wildly nervous as a grad student. I relied on Xu to be my echo chamber, and I didn’t know how excited I should be. It was my first year at MIT, and I already had this doom-and-gloom feeling of, “What am I doing here? 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I sometimes tend to say in a million words what I could say in a hundred. Xu was the opposite — every word had purpose. He thought before he spoke. I admired that, and I learned so much from that disciplined way of thinking. We were very complementary — a dynamic duo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Boston University. His new book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with him — and you — after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-bruce-lee-helped-shape-asian-american-culture",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"bio": "\"Water Mirror Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America\" - Chang is also the author of \"We Gon' Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation,\" \"Who We Be: The Colorization of America\" and \"Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation\""
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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