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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 18 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Data centers are the server farms that power the internet. California has the third-most data centers of any state: over 320 sites, with more construction slated for next year. But energy experts are sounding alarms about their impacts on electric grids, water and climate; impacts that are worsening with the explosion of AI. We’ll talk about what data center growth means for the environment — and for ratepayers — and how lawmakers and communities are responding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>“\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/karen-hao-empire-of-ai-water-use-statistics/\">You’re Thinking About AI and Water All Wrong,\u003c/a>” WIRED\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>“\u003ca href=\"https://capitalandmain.com/the-insatiable-energy-demands-of-data-centers-could-increase-fossil-fuel-emissions-in-california\">The Insatiable Energy Demands of Data Centers Could Increase Fossil Fuel Emissions in California,\u003c/a>” Capital & Main\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"391\" data-end=\"653\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"391\" data-end=\"404\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"416\" data-end=\"423\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. More than 230 environmental groups this month sent a letter to Congress warning that data centers — which power the internet and increasingly AI — are threatening Americans’ economic, climate, and water security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"655\" data-end=\"883\">Meanwhile, industry groups say the environmental impacts of data centers have been oversimplified and overblown. California is home to more than 320 data centers — the third most in the U.S. — with plans for more in the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"885\" data-end=\"1123\">So this hour, we take a closer look at how and why data centers can be so energy- and resource-intensive, and we’ll hear from you, listeners, on whether you think that tradeoff — delivering huge amounts of computing power — is worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1125\" data-end=\"1221\">Joining me first is Molly Taft, senior climate reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"1184\" data-end=\"1191\">Wired\u003c/em>. Molly, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1211\" data-end=\"1218\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1223\" data-end=\"1305\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1223\" data-end=\"1238\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1307\" data-end=\"1540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1307\" data-end=\"1320\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Good — because for people unfamiliar with these large warehouses full of servers called data centers, I think they’re wondering what you can tell us generally about what they’re like and what their resource needs are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1542\" data-end=\"1745\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1542\" data-end=\"1557\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk about them over the past few years as this buildout has exploded, but a lot of people don’t actually know what these centers need in terms of resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1747\" data-end=\"2030\">Very simply, a data center is a facility that houses a lot of servers that do computing tasks. This could be anything from hosting cloud files, to running programs that help you watch Netflix, to AI processes — which is really where the conversation has gone in the past few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2032\" data-end=\"2380\">Traditionally, many data centers built before 2022 or 2023 — in places like California and Virginia — were used for general computing processes like hosting websites or cloud services. But as AI has taken off, and as we are racing forward, the Trump administration has been very clear that it wants to develop AI capabilities as much as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2382\" data-end=\"2596\">Especially after the advent of ChatGPT in November 2022, which really showed everyone what large language models can do, there began to be much more discussion about using space in these data centers to power AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2598\" data-end=\"2856\">This is a slightly different equation in terms of resources. These proposed data centers are much bigger, they use far more computing power than their predecessors, and as a result, they require a lot more electricity — and in some cases, a lot more water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2858\" data-end=\"3063\">So when we talk about data centers right now, we have to divide between what’s existed over the past 10 or 15 years and what’s being proposed for the future. We’re really in an interesting middle ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3065\" data-end=\"3188\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3065\" data-end=\"3078\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I know this gets a little technical, but broadly speaking, why do AI models need so much energy to run?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3444\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3205\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question. Frankly, these models are doing far more than our past computing needs required. They’re crunching enormous amounts of information — especially during training. Training LLMs like ChatGPT requires a lot of energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3446\" data-end=\"3710\">These chips — you may have heard of NVIDIA chips — are extremely powerful. Servers use a tremendous amount of energy to do that work, and they also run hot. A lot of a data center’s electricity use actually goes toward cooling the servers to prevent overheating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3712\" data-end=\"4035\">That’s where water sometimes comes in. Some data centers draw in water to cool the systems down. And when you add the scale of the data centers being proposed — especially hyperscalers from companies like Meta and Google — you’re talking about massive campuses with much larger physical footprints than we’ve seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4037\" data-end=\"4177\">That raises serious questions about how much electricity we’ll need, and what resource use will look like over the next five to ten years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4179\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4179\" data-end=\"4192\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. And Molly, your recent piece focused specifically on how much water data centers use. What do they use the water for? Is it mainly cooling?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4453\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4358\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yes. Water is a really tricky issue, and it’s something a lot of people are concerned about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4455\" data-end=\"4693\">When you see popular estimates floating around — like that ChatGPT uses a teaspoon of water per query, or that writing an email with an LLM is equivalent to a bottle of water — those figures usually combine different types of water use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4695\" data-end=\"4926\">One is on-site water use. Data centers run hot, so some companies pipe in water that runs through the facility, then out to cooling towers, where some of it evaporates. That evaporated water is essentially lost to the atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4928\" data-end=\"5189\">What makes this complicated is that water use is highly site-specific. You can design a data center that doesn’t use water, but that usually means using more electricity — which raises costs and carbon emissions, especially if the grid relies on fossil fuels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5191\" data-end=\"5364\">On the other hand, companies may choose water-based cooling because it’s cheaper and lowers carbon emissions — but that can be problematic in places where water is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5366\" data-end=\"5675\">There are also experimental technologies using chemical coolants that could reduce both water and electricity use, but many of those involve “forever chemicals,” which raises environmental concerns. So there are a lot of tradeoffs for both companies and municipalities deciding whether to host data centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5677\" data-end=\"5749\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5677\" data-end=\"5690\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And these data centers tend to use potable water, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5751\" data-end=\"5970\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5751\" data-end=\"5766\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yes. They technically could use salty or brackish water, but salt corrodes electronics. Potable water doesn’t necessarily mean drinking water — but it does need to be free of salt and certain minerals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5972\" data-end=\"6125\">Some data centers draw fresh water from lakes or streams and pipe it back out, but many simply connect to municipal water supplies because it’s easier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6127\" data-end=\"6358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6127\" data-end=\"6140\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You mentioned estimates from OpenAI suggesting a ChatGPT query uses about one-fifteenth of a teaspoon of water, while other estimates say it could be an entire bottle. That’s a huge range. Why is it so hard to know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6360\" data-end=\"6596\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6360\" data-end=\"6375\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question, and that OpenAI figure really illustrates how little information we get from tech companies. Sam Altman mentioned that number offhand on his personal blog, which leaves many unanswered questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6598\" data-end=\"6863\">What does a single query mean? Does it include image or video generation? Does it account for stacked queries in AI-powered products? Does it include the cost of training the model, which often uses more energy and water than running queries on an existing model?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6865\" data-end=\"7040\">On the other end, some estimates include off-site water use — like the water used to generate electricity — which becomes incredibly complicated and varies widely by region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7042\" data-end=\"7244\">A grid powered by solar in a dry region looks very different from one powered by hydropower. Data center design also varies. That’s why experts often say pulling out a single number isn’t very useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7246\" data-end=\"7508\">It’s also extremely difficult to get hard data. Water use is often proprietary. Communities may only learn what companies choose to disclose, and NDAs are common. California did pass a bill requiring more transparency, but Governor Newsom vetoed it in October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7510\" data-end=\"7604\">So many estimates are based on incomplete information — making it a difficult guessing game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7738\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7619\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And as you noted, some in the industry argue the AI water issue is fake. Based on your reporting, is it dismissible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7740\" data-end=\"7936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7740\" data-end=\"7755\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> I don’t think it’s dismissible at all. Experts consistently say you can’t ignore it — especially when data centers are built in water-scarce regions, like parts of the Southwest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7938\" data-end=\"8138\">That said, as an environmental reporter, I’m personally more concerned about electricity use than water use. The potential scale of energy demand is enormous — and that’s a much more pressing issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8140\" data-end=\"8353\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8140\" data-end=\"8153\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s exactly what we’ll get into after the break — the electricity issue. We’re talking with Molly Taft, senior climate reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"8292\" data-end=\"8299\">Wired\u003c/em>, about the environmental footprint of data centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8355\" data-end=\"8426\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll be back with more after the break. I’m Mina Kim. This is \u003cem data-start=\"8418\" data-end=\"8425\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 18 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Data centers are the server farms that power the internet. California has the third-most data centers of any state: over 320 sites, with more construction slated for next year. But energy experts are sounding alarms about their impacts on electric grids, water and climate; impacts that are worsening with the explosion of AI. We’ll talk about what data center growth means for the environment — and for ratepayers — and how lawmakers and communities are responding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>“\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/karen-hao-empire-of-ai-water-use-statistics/\">You’re Thinking About AI and Water All Wrong,\u003c/a>” WIRED\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>“\u003ca href=\"https://capitalandmain.com/the-insatiable-energy-demands-of-data-centers-could-increase-fossil-fuel-emissions-in-california\">The Insatiable Energy Demands of Data Centers Could Increase Fossil Fuel Emissions in California,\u003c/a>” Capital & Main\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"391\" data-end=\"653\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"391\" data-end=\"404\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"416\" data-end=\"423\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. More than 230 environmental groups this month sent a letter to Congress warning that data centers — which power the internet and increasingly AI — are threatening Americans’ economic, climate, and water security.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"655\" data-end=\"883\">Meanwhile, industry groups say the environmental impacts of data centers have been oversimplified and overblown. California is home to more than 320 data centers — the third most in the U.S. — with plans for more in the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"885\" data-end=\"1123\">So this hour, we take a closer look at how and why data centers can be so energy- and resource-intensive, and we’ll hear from you, listeners, on whether you think that tradeoff — delivering huge amounts of computing power — is worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1125\" data-end=\"1221\">Joining me first is Molly Taft, senior climate reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"1184\" data-end=\"1191\">Wired\u003c/em>. Molly, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1211\" data-end=\"1218\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1223\" data-end=\"1305\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1223\" data-end=\"1238\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1307\" data-end=\"1540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1307\" data-end=\"1320\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Good — because for people unfamiliar with these large warehouses full of servers called data centers, I think they’re wondering what you can tell us generally about what they’re like and what their resource needs are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1542\" data-end=\"1745\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1542\" data-end=\"1557\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk about them over the past few years as this buildout has exploded, but a lot of people don’t actually know what these centers need in terms of resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1747\" data-end=\"2030\">Very simply, a data center is a facility that houses a lot of servers that do computing tasks. This could be anything from hosting cloud files, to running programs that help you watch Netflix, to AI processes — which is really where the conversation has gone in the past few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2032\" data-end=\"2380\">Traditionally, many data centers built before 2022 or 2023 — in places like California and Virginia — were used for general computing processes like hosting websites or cloud services. But as AI has taken off, and as we are racing forward, the Trump administration has been very clear that it wants to develop AI capabilities as much as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2382\" data-end=\"2596\">Especially after the advent of ChatGPT in November 2022, which really showed everyone what large language models can do, there began to be much more discussion about using space in these data centers to power AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2598\" data-end=\"2856\">This is a slightly different equation in terms of resources. These proposed data centers are much bigger, they use far more computing power than their predecessors, and as a result, they require a lot more electricity — and in some cases, a lot more water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2858\" data-end=\"3063\">So when we talk about data centers right now, we have to divide between what’s existed over the past 10 or 15 years and what’s being proposed for the future. We’re really in an interesting middle ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3065\" data-end=\"3188\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3065\" data-end=\"3078\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And I know this gets a little technical, but broadly speaking, why do AI models need so much energy to run?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3444\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3205\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question. Frankly, these models are doing far more than our past computing needs required. They’re crunching enormous amounts of information — especially during training. Training LLMs like ChatGPT requires a lot of energy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3446\" data-end=\"3710\">These chips — you may have heard of NVIDIA chips — are extremely powerful. Servers use a tremendous amount of energy to do that work, and they also run hot. A lot of a data center’s electricity use actually goes toward cooling the servers to prevent overheating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3712\" data-end=\"4035\">That’s where water sometimes comes in. Some data centers draw in water to cool the systems down. And when you add the scale of the data centers being proposed — especially hyperscalers from companies like Meta and Google — you’re talking about massive campuses with much larger physical footprints than we’ve seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4037\" data-end=\"4177\">That raises serious questions about how much electricity we’ll need, and what resource use will look like over the next five to ten years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4179\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4179\" data-end=\"4192\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. And Molly, your recent piece focused specifically on how much water data centers use. What do they use the water for? Is it mainly cooling?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4453\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4358\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yes. Water is a really tricky issue, and it’s something a lot of people are concerned about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4455\" data-end=\"4693\">When you see popular estimates floating around — like that ChatGPT uses a teaspoon of water per query, or that writing an email with an LLM is equivalent to a bottle of water — those figures usually combine different types of water use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4695\" data-end=\"4926\">One is on-site water use. Data centers run hot, so some companies pipe in water that runs through the facility, then out to cooling towers, where some of it evaporates. That evaporated water is essentially lost to the atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4928\" data-end=\"5189\">What makes this complicated is that water use is highly site-specific. You can design a data center that doesn’t use water, but that usually means using more electricity — which raises costs and carbon emissions, especially if the grid relies on fossil fuels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5191\" data-end=\"5364\">On the other hand, companies may choose water-based cooling because it’s cheaper and lowers carbon emissions — but that can be problematic in places where water is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5366\" data-end=\"5675\">There are also experimental technologies using chemical coolants that could reduce both water and electricity use, but many of those involve “forever chemicals,” which raises environmental concerns. So there are a lot of tradeoffs for both companies and municipalities deciding whether to host data centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5677\" data-end=\"5749\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5677\" data-end=\"5690\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And these data centers tend to use potable water, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5751\" data-end=\"5970\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5751\" data-end=\"5766\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> Yes. They technically could use salty or brackish water, but salt corrodes electronics. Potable water doesn’t necessarily mean drinking water — but it does need to be free of salt and certain minerals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5972\" data-end=\"6125\">Some data centers draw fresh water from lakes or streams and pipe it back out, but many simply connect to municipal water supplies because it’s easier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6127\" data-end=\"6358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6127\" data-end=\"6140\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You mentioned estimates from OpenAI suggesting a ChatGPT query uses about one-fifteenth of a teaspoon of water, while other estimates say it could be an entire bottle. That’s a huge range. Why is it so hard to know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6360\" data-end=\"6596\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6360\" data-end=\"6375\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> It’s a great question, and that OpenAI figure really illustrates how little information we get from tech companies. Sam Altman mentioned that number offhand on his personal blog, which leaves many unanswered questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6598\" data-end=\"6863\">What does a single query mean? Does it include image or video generation? Does it account for stacked queries in AI-powered products? Does it include the cost of training the model, which often uses more energy and water than running queries on an existing model?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6865\" data-end=\"7040\">On the other end, some estimates include off-site water use — like the water used to generate electricity — which becomes incredibly complicated and varies widely by region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7042\" data-end=\"7244\">A grid powered by solar in a dry region looks very different from one powered by hydropower. Data center design also varies. That’s why experts often say pulling out a single number isn’t very useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7246\" data-end=\"7508\">It’s also extremely difficult to get hard data. Water use is often proprietary. Communities may only learn what companies choose to disclose, and NDAs are common. California did pass a bill requiring more transparency, but Governor Newsom vetoed it in October.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7510\" data-end=\"7604\">So many estimates are based on incomplete information — making it a difficult guessing game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7738\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7619\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And as you noted, some in the industry argue the AI water issue is fake. Based on your reporting, is it dismissible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7740\" data-end=\"7936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7740\" data-end=\"7755\">Molly Taft:\u003c/strong> I don’t think it’s dismissible at all. Experts consistently say you can’t ignore it — especially when data centers are built in water-scarce regions, like parts of the Southwest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7938\" data-end=\"8138\">That said, as an environmental reporter, I’m personally more concerned about electricity use than water use. The potential scale of energy demand is enormous — and that’s a much more pressing issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8140\" data-end=\"8353\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8140\" data-end=\"8153\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And that’s exactly what we’ll get into after the break — the electricity issue. We’re talking with Molly Taft, senior climate reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"8292\" data-end=\"8299\">Wired\u003c/em>, about the environmental footprint of data centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8355\" data-end=\"8426\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll be back with more after the break. I’m Mina Kim. This is \u003cem data-start=\"8418\" data-end=\"8425\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Misogyny Has Gone Mainstream. What Can be Done?",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 18 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The president calling female reporters “piggy”, “stupid” and “ugly.” Claims that liberal feminism has ruined the workplace. The manosphere. Despite the #MeToo movement, protests featuring pussy hats, and political and cultural efforts to call the patriarchy to account, misogyny feels like it’s going strong in 2025. But why? We gather a panel of thinkers and leaders to talk about how misogyny has become mainstream and what can be done about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"400\" data-end=\"767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"400\" data-end=\"420\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"432\" data-end=\"439\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I have, for better or worse, been a man my whole life, and I’ve spent a lot of time with other men — in literal locker rooms, on teams, and in sports bars. That is to say, I’ve been places where men are talking to other men. And yet these days, the misogyny in the public sphere shocks and horrifies me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"769\" data-end=\"1041\">I’ve never heard any man in my life say, in real life, anything like the things we’re hearing out of the manosphere, or even from the president and the people around him. And that’s translating into policies and legal rulings that were unthinkable in my young adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1043\" data-end=\"1293\">This is not to say that things have been good for women before this, or that the gender roles and scripts in society have been working for women. But holy hell — it feels like some dark things have been unleashed in our culture and in our politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1295\" data-end=\"1521\">And here to discuss what’s going on and where it came from, we have an all-star panel. We’re joined by Roxane Gay, scholar and author. Her books include \u003cem data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1465\">Difficult Women\u003c/em>, \u003cem data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1475\">Hunger\u003c/em>, and \u003cem data-start=\"1481\" data-end=\"1495\">Bad Feminist\u003c/em>. Thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1581\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1538\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1583\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1583\" data-end=\"1603\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by Irin Carmon, who’s a senior correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"1670\" data-end=\"1689\">New York Magazine\u003c/em>, and the author of \u003cem data-start=\"1709\" data-end=\"1772\">Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1802\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> Hi, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"2118\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1838\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. And we’ve got Savala Nolan, executive director of the Felton E. Henderson Center for Social Justice at Berkeley Law, author of \u003cem data-start=\"1970\" data-end=\"2035\">Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender, and the Body\u003c/em>. She’s also got a book coming out next year, \u003cem data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2106\">Good Woman: A Reckoning\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2120\" data-end=\"2178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2120\" data-end=\"2137\">Savala Nolan:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2180\" data-end=\"2417\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2180\" data-end=\"2200\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Roxane, maybe we can just start with a big question that’s been knocking around in my head: are things worse now on the misogyny score, or is the misogyny that was always there just kind of out in the open now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2419\" data-end=\"2670\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2419\" data-end=\"2434\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> The ambient misogyny that has always been there is just louder now because we have more access to it — by way of social media, twenty-four-hour news, et cetera. But while things are not as bad as they once were, they’re pretty close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2672\" data-end=\"3068\">Legislatively, we’ve lost so much ground with the overturning of \u003cem data-start=\"2737\" data-end=\"2750\">Roe v. Wade\u003c/em>. And there just doesn’t seem to be any kind of pushback, particularly when the commander in chief calls a reporter “little piggy” and none of her colleagues come to her rescue. Nobody in the moment. And I think we all would love to believe that, in the moment, we would do the right thing. I get what happens there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3070\" data-end=\"3381\">But to see no one coming forward and saying, “This is wrong. You can’t talk to people like that” — things are grim. When you consider that, you know, fifty years ago women couldn’t really bank on their own, yes, things are better than they once were. But I don’t think we should be using the past as a rubric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3383\" data-end=\"3463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3383\" data-end=\"3403\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Right. Yeah. Irin, is it just Trump? Is Trump the change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3465\" data-end=\"3735\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3465\" data-end=\"3481\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> I think Trump has normalized bringing it out in the open and making people think it’s a majority opinion. I agree with Roxane that the misogyny is real — it’s not just virtual — and it’s being enacted at the highest levels through policy and rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3737\" data-end=\"4022\">But I also often think back to the early 1980s backlash to social justice, including feminism and racial equality, and the limited moves that were made in the ’60s and ’70s. Obviously, before there was Erika Kirk or Ballerina Farm, there was Phyllis Schlafly. We’ve been here before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4024\" data-end=\"4308\">What’s different, I think, is the speed. Our changing media environment and how manipulable it is. We used to have gatekeepers of acceptable speech. There were negative externalities to that — marginalized people didn’t always have access — but it also kind of kept a lid on things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4310\" data-end=\"4557\">I remember, as a feminist blogger a dozen years ago, reading incel and manosphere posts and just wanting to step away from my computer. Now I simply cannot escape them. That’s a choice being made by people like Elon Musk — to flood us with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4559\" data-end=\"4811\">I do not think the majority of people believe women shouldn’t be able to vote, or that Black women should be fired en masse from the workplace. I think a fringe is exploiting algorithmic access and base desires to make people think it’s the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4813\" data-end=\"5074\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4813\" data-end=\"4833\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Savala, I wanted you to pick up on something Roxane was saying — that history shouldn’t be the guide. If things were bad in the past, and things are better now, that doesn’t mean things are great. So where would you look for a North Star?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5076\" data-end=\"5413\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5076\" data-end=\"5093\">Savala Nolan:\u003c/strong> I completely agree with everything Irin and Roxane said. From a legal perspective, there’s always been a pretty hardcore commitment to male supremacy in this country, with an almost medieval flavor. Men could legally beat their wives through the ’70s and rape them in some states into the ’90s. This is living memory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5785\">The question of a North Star is difficult because women in this country have never lived as full and equal citizens. We’ve never been viewed politically, economically, or socially as fully autonomous human beings, separate from our relationships to men. Quite the contrary — we’ve been subsumed into normative male desire as it shows up in law, culture, and economics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5787\" data-end=\"6116\">So the question is difficult, but also exciting. We can’t look to the past — we literally haven’t seen it. What’s interesting about this moment is that, yes, there’s a cohort of women deeply involved in MAGA who don’t mind or don’t see the misogyny. You don’t have to be at the top of the hierarchy to agree with the hierarchy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6118\" data-end=\"6453\">But there’s also a powerful — and I think larger — cohort of women and girls becoming more female-centric. Not misandry. Not doing back to men what’s being done to us. But imagining their lives from a more female-centered place. I sense among my students, friends, and family a deeper interest in womanism than I’ve ever seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6455\" data-end=\"6689\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6455\" data-end=\"6475\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Before we plunge into the depths of the manosphere, Roxane, I wanted to give you a chance to follow up. Are there people or movements — Combahee River Collective, for example — who might offer a way out of this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6691\" data-end=\"6869\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6691\" data-end=\"6706\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> Men are going to have to provide their own way out of this. This is a man problem. Men listen to and respect other men. Men need to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6871\" data-end=\"7109\">The idea that feminism or Black feminism needs to show the way — we’ve been showing the way for more than a century. The Combahee River Collective, Audre Lorde, James Baldwin — they’ve all given us tools. We just choose not to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7111\" data-end=\"7312\">It’s always interesting when this question comes up, because it assumes there’s no map. There is a map. People just don’t want to follow it because it doesn’t suit their desire for power and control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7314\" data-end=\"7640\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7314\" data-end=\"7334\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the rise in misogyny — how to think about it and what can be done. We’re joined by Roxane Gay, Savala Nolan, and Irin Carmon. And we want to invite you into the conversation. How have you seen attitudes toward women change over time? Do you think misogyny has become more normalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7642\" data-end=\"7797\">You can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7708\" data-end=\"7722\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can also find us on social media — Bluesky, Instagram, and Discord.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7799\" data-end=\"7928\">Irin, can you talk about how you see the relationship between this cultural world and the legal and political worlds you cover?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7930\" data-end=\"8155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7930\" data-end=\"7946\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> I think we’re living in a split screen. Legislatively and politically — and online — it’s never been uglier. But every time I step away from my computer and do reporting on the ground, I see something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8157\" data-end=\"8431\">I see people defending their neighbors, helping pregnant people access abortion care — whether through pills or travel — and supporting people who want to stay pregnant. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 18 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The president calling female reporters “piggy”, “stupid” and “ugly.” Claims that liberal feminism has ruined the workplace. The manosphere. Despite the #MeToo movement, protests featuring pussy hats, and political and cultural efforts to call the patriarchy to account, misogyny feels like it’s going strong in 2025. But why? We gather a panel of thinkers and leaders to talk about how misogyny has become mainstream and what can be done about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"400\" data-end=\"767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"400\" data-end=\"420\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"432\" data-end=\"439\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I have, for better or worse, been a man my whole life, and I’ve spent a lot of time with other men — in literal locker rooms, on teams, and in sports bars. That is to say, I’ve been places where men are talking to other men. And yet these days, the misogyny in the public sphere shocks and horrifies me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"769\" data-end=\"1041\">I’ve never heard any man in my life say, in real life, anything like the things we’re hearing out of the manosphere, or even from the president and the people around him. And that’s translating into policies and legal rulings that were unthinkable in my young adulthood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1043\" data-end=\"1293\">This is not to say that things have been good for women before this, or that the gender roles and scripts in society have been working for women. But holy hell — it feels like some dark things have been unleashed in our culture and in our politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1295\" data-end=\"1521\">And here to discuss what’s going on and where it came from, we have an all-star panel. We’re joined by Roxane Gay, scholar and author. Her books include \u003cem data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1465\">Difficult Women\u003c/em>, \u003cem data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1475\">Hunger\u003c/em>, and \u003cem data-start=\"1481\" data-end=\"1495\">Bad Feminist\u003c/em>. Thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1581\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1538\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1583\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1583\" data-end=\"1603\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by Irin Carmon, who’s a senior correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"1670\" data-end=\"1689\">New York Magazine\u003c/em>, and the author of \u003cem data-start=\"1709\" data-end=\"1772\">Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1802\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> Hi, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"2118\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1838\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Hi. And we’ve got Savala Nolan, executive director of the Felton E. Henderson Center for Social Justice at Berkeley Law, author of \u003cem data-start=\"1970\" data-end=\"2035\">Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender, and the Body\u003c/em>. She’s also got a book coming out next year, \u003cem data-start=\"2081\" data-end=\"2106\">Good Woman: A Reckoning\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2120\" data-end=\"2178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2120\" data-end=\"2137\">Savala Nolan:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2180\" data-end=\"2417\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2180\" data-end=\"2200\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Roxane, maybe we can just start with a big question that’s been knocking around in my head: are things worse now on the misogyny score, or is the misogyny that was always there just kind of out in the open now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2419\" data-end=\"2670\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2419\" data-end=\"2434\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> The ambient misogyny that has always been there is just louder now because we have more access to it — by way of social media, twenty-four-hour news, et cetera. But while things are not as bad as they once were, they’re pretty close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2672\" data-end=\"3068\">Legislatively, we’ve lost so much ground with the overturning of \u003cem data-start=\"2737\" data-end=\"2750\">Roe v. Wade\u003c/em>. And there just doesn’t seem to be any kind of pushback, particularly when the commander in chief calls a reporter “little piggy” and none of her colleagues come to her rescue. Nobody in the moment. And I think we all would love to believe that, in the moment, we would do the right thing. I get what happens there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3070\" data-end=\"3381\">But to see no one coming forward and saying, “This is wrong. You can’t talk to people like that” — things are grim. When you consider that, you know, fifty years ago women couldn’t really bank on their own, yes, things are better than they once were. But I don’t think we should be using the past as a rubric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3383\" data-end=\"3463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3383\" data-end=\"3403\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Right. Yeah. Irin, is it just Trump? Is Trump the change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3465\" data-end=\"3735\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3465\" data-end=\"3481\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> I think Trump has normalized bringing it out in the open and making people think it’s a majority opinion. I agree with Roxane that the misogyny is real — it’s not just virtual — and it’s being enacted at the highest levels through policy and rhetoric.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3737\" data-end=\"4022\">But I also often think back to the early 1980s backlash to social justice, including feminism and racial equality, and the limited moves that were made in the ’60s and ’70s. Obviously, before there was Erika Kirk or Ballerina Farm, there was Phyllis Schlafly. We’ve been here before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4024\" data-end=\"4308\">What’s different, I think, is the speed. Our changing media environment and how manipulable it is. We used to have gatekeepers of acceptable speech. There were negative externalities to that — marginalized people didn’t always have access — but it also kind of kept a lid on things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4310\" data-end=\"4557\">I remember, as a feminist blogger a dozen years ago, reading incel and manosphere posts and just wanting to step away from my computer. Now I simply cannot escape them. That’s a choice being made by people like Elon Musk — to flood us with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4559\" data-end=\"4811\">I do not think the majority of people believe women shouldn’t be able to vote, or that Black women should be fired en masse from the workplace. I think a fringe is exploiting algorithmic access and base desires to make people think it’s the majority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4813\" data-end=\"5074\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4813\" data-end=\"4833\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Savala, I wanted you to pick up on something Roxane was saying — that history shouldn’t be the guide. If things were bad in the past, and things are better now, that doesn’t mean things are great. So where would you look for a North Star?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5076\" data-end=\"5413\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5076\" data-end=\"5093\">Savala Nolan:\u003c/strong> I completely agree with everything Irin and Roxane said. From a legal perspective, there’s always been a pretty hardcore commitment to male supremacy in this country, with an almost medieval flavor. Men could legally beat their wives through the ’70s and rape them in some states into the ’90s. This is living memory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5785\">The question of a North Star is difficult because women in this country have never lived as full and equal citizens. We’ve never been viewed politically, economically, or socially as fully autonomous human beings, separate from our relationships to men. Quite the contrary — we’ve been subsumed into normative male desire as it shows up in law, culture, and economics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5787\" data-end=\"6116\">So the question is difficult, but also exciting. We can’t look to the past — we literally haven’t seen it. What’s interesting about this moment is that, yes, there’s a cohort of women deeply involved in MAGA who don’t mind or don’t see the misogyny. You don’t have to be at the top of the hierarchy to agree with the hierarchy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6118\" data-end=\"6453\">But there’s also a powerful — and I think larger — cohort of women and girls becoming more female-centric. Not misandry. Not doing back to men what’s being done to us. But imagining their lives from a more female-centered place. I sense among my students, friends, and family a deeper interest in womanism than I’ve ever seen before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6455\" data-end=\"6689\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6455\" data-end=\"6475\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Before we plunge into the depths of the manosphere, Roxane, I wanted to give you a chance to follow up. Are there people or movements — Combahee River Collective, for example — who might offer a way out of this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6691\" data-end=\"6869\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6691\" data-end=\"6706\">Roxane Gay:\u003c/strong> Men are going to have to provide their own way out of this. This is a man problem. Men listen to and respect other men. Men need to hold each other accountable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6871\" data-end=\"7109\">The idea that feminism or Black feminism needs to show the way — we’ve been showing the way for more than a century. The Combahee River Collective, Audre Lorde, James Baldwin — they’ve all given us tools. We just choose not to use them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7111\" data-end=\"7312\">It’s always interesting when this question comes up, because it assumes there’s no map. There is a map. People just don’t want to follow it because it doesn’t suit their desire for power and control.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7314\" data-end=\"7640\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7314\" data-end=\"7334\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the rise in misogyny — how to think about it and what can be done. We’re joined by Roxane Gay, Savala Nolan, and Irin Carmon. And we want to invite you into the conversation. How have you seen attitudes toward women change over time? Do you think misogyny has become more normalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7642\" data-end=\"7797\">You can call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7708\" data-end=\"7722\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can also find us on social media — Bluesky, Instagram, and Discord.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7799\" data-end=\"7928\">Irin, can you talk about how you see the relationship between this cultural world and the legal and political worlds you cover?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7930\" data-end=\"8155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7930\" data-end=\"7946\">Irin Carmon:\u003c/strong> I think we’re living in a split screen. Legislatively and politically — and online — it’s never been uglier. But every time I step away from my computer and do reporting on the ground, I see something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8157\" data-end=\"8431\">I see people defending their neighbors, helping pregnant people access abortion care — whether through pills or travel — and supporting people who want to stay pregnant. This is as immediate as the work gets. And it reminds me that not everyone is like what we see online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8433\" data-end=\"8729\">Yes, it’s bleak — especially for trans people being violently punished by the state for challenging rigid gender norms. But I think they want us to feel helpless. And there have always been people with the imagination to build a better reality on the ground. I don’t want to lose sight of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8731\" data-end=\"8844\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8731\" data-end=\"8751\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more after the break. I’m Alexis Madrigal. This is \u003cem data-start=\"8822\" data-end=\"8829\">Forum\u003c/em>. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From hotels to fast food restaurants, more companies are luring consumers to sign up for loyalty programs in exchange for points, discounts and other deals. But according to two former FTC officials, loyalty programs have devolved into “data-harvesting machines” that track what we buy and even how much we’re willing to pay. And the financial benefits tend to fall far short of the initial promise. We talk to Sam A.A. Levine and Stephanie Nguyen about how loyalty programs exploit consumers, how California is fighting back and how we can stay alert to the pitfalls. Their recent paper is called “The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us with Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices.” What consumer loyalty programs do you use, and have you ever felt used… by them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"679\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"325\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"348\" data-end=\"355\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Chances are, as you’ve been holiday shopping, you’ve given away your personal information or joined a rewards program in exchange for a discount. Loyalty programs are everywhere, providing benefits for repeat customers or continued engagement, and they can feel like welcome relief in tight economic times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"891\">But according to my guests, they’ve also become data-harvesting machines, where companies watch us, sort us, and ultimately charge us not the same as everyone else, but the maximum price they think we’ll pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"893\" data-end=\"1290\">Sam Levine is senior fellow at the Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice at UC Berkeley Law School, and Stephanie Nguyen is senior fellow at Vanderbilt Policy Accelerator. They’re both former officials at the Federal Trade Commission under the Biden administration and authors of the paper \u003cem data-start=\"1190\" data-end=\"1287\">The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us With Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1292\" data-end=\"1323\">Sam Levine, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1322\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1349\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1387\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Stephanie Nguyen, also glad to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1498\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1469\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1618\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1513\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sam, I want to start with you. Can you remind us of the universe of loyalty programs that are out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1901\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1644\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Loyalty programs really are everywhere. They started in the airline industry — that’s where they’re probably most famous. Frequent flyer miles, maybe a few free trips. But now, every store I go into, I feel like I’m being asked to join a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1903\" data-end=\"2218\">I’m trying to check out, I’m in a rush, and they say, “Give me your phone number. Join our loyalty program.” This can be retail, hardware stores, department stores — you name it. Companies want us enrolled in these programs. And I think anyone who’s been shopping this holiday season has experienced the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2233\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And they really try to make it frictionless, right? They say, “Do it right now. The savings apply instantly. It’s free to start.” I imagine that’s why they’re so popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2757\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2436\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s so tempting. They’ll say all you need to do is enter a phone number and you get ten percent off right away. But one of the things we point out in the paper is that it’s not just your phone number you’re handing over. You’re often consenting to vast data collection that begins as soon as you give them permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2759\" data-end=\"2839\">So it looks really easy, but it sets you up for a lot of tracking down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"3030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"2854\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Stephanie, in your paper you talk about the evolution — or really the devolution — of these programs, meaning they’ve become more aggressive and manipulative over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3296\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3053\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think it’s important to start with the definition of a loyalty program. At a high level, it’s a system businesses use to keep customers coming back. They’ll do that through any means necessary — points, discounts, perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3298\" data-end=\"3538\">What we saw, after looking at dozens and dozens of loyalty programs, is what we describe as a three-part structure. The hook is where companies entice consumers with upfront benefits and discounts to attract them and keep them purchasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3540\" data-end=\"3818\">The hack is where they get your data. That data becomes the currency of their strategy and allows them to understand who you are — not just as someone in a broad demographic, but as a specific individual who just had a baby or who lives in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3820\" data-end=\"4020\">And the hike is the third piece. Companies can raise fees, cut benefits, or deploy coercive upselling tactics that essentially turn loyalty programs into a net cost for consumers instead of a benefit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4139\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4035\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you give us an example of how this plays out? I was particularly struck by your McDonald’s example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4470\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4162\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> McDonald’s, for the past ninety years, has offered a game called Monopoly — a paper-based peel-and-win game where you can win free Big Macs, fries, or even a million dollars or a Jeep Cherokee. They took a nine-year hiatus, and this year they brought it back with what they called a “modern digital spin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4472\" data-end=\"4723\">To play now, you have to download the app. You enter your peel codes into the app. McDonald’s has publicly said it currently has around 185 million active loyalty program users across markets, and it wants to increase that to 250 million active users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4766\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> If this strategy succeeds, the Monopoly game entices people to download the app and play for a chance at prizes. And if McDonald’s reaches that goal, it will have data on a quarter of a billion consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4975\" data-end=\"5149\">They’ve said they can infer things like intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes — all collected because you downloaded the app, lured by the chance to win prizes or free food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5164\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Sam, talk about that. What are they doing with those 250 million users? What exactly are they collecting about us to make those kinds of inferences?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5343\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> That’s part of the problem — we don’t really know. McDonald’s says on its website that when you join the loyalty program, they track psychological trends, predispositions, intelligence, and abilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5774\">Companies are using sophisticated data analysis systems, often powered by machine learning, to examine patterns — where we go, when we go, what we buy. Do I get a McMuffin every morning? Do I go late at night after drinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5776\" data-end=\"6008\">When companies can track tens of millions of people, they can combine all those data points and draw sophisticated inferences about income, preferences, weaknesses, and how much someone is willing to pay. The sky’s really the limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6023\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk more about how McDonald’s and other companies segment customers by willingness to pay — charging us right up to that limit. Are you saying that, for example, when ordering through DoorDash, people might see different prices for the same item?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6297\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Let me zoom out beyond McDonald’s and talk about the industry more broadly. What you’re describing is exactly right. Companies use loyalty programs to figure out when and how to nudge someone into buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6506\" data-end=\"6785\">McDonald’s found that before joining the loyalty program, people went about ten and a half times a year. After joining, that number jumped to twenty-six times a year. They’re cracking the code — figuring out what push notifications, games, or rewards get people into the store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6787\" data-end=\"7018\">We’ve seen this across industries. Delta Airlines, for example, talked on an investor call about wanting to engage in more personalized pricing. They described figuring out the maximum someone is willing to pay as the “holy grail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7033\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So this isn’t some distant future. This is already happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7121\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. For listeners in California, one thing we found useful is that state law allows you to request reports showing what data companies collect about you. Those reports often obscure more than they reveal, but they make clear just how vast the data collection is — including location data, device data, and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7445\" data-end=\"7605\">They also show how many third parties your data is shared or sold to. It can be eye-opening to see what’s really happening behind the promise of free discounts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is surveillance pricing legal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7860\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7677\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> As we say in law school — it depends. California attempted to pass an outright ban on surveillance pricing this year, but it didn’t pass. Other states are considering similar bans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7862\" data-end=\"8208\">That said, many pricing abuses are already illegal. False discounts, hard-to-cancel programs, or collecting more data than necessary can violate state and federal law. Our core point is that people shouldn’t have to choose between protecting their privacy and affording groceries — but that’s exactly the position many consumers are in right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8223\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What’s your reaction to companies using loyalty programs for surveillance pricing? What programs are you enrolled in, and have you ever felt manipulated by one? Or is there a loyalty program you actually like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8487\" data-end=\"8635\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8493\" data-end=\"8507\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8637\" data-end=\"8762\">We’re talking with Sam Levine and Stephanie Nguyen. We’ll have more with them — and with you — after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From hotels to fast food restaurants, more companies are luring consumers to sign up for loyalty programs in exchange for points, discounts and other deals. But according to two former FTC officials, loyalty programs have devolved into “data-harvesting machines” that track what we buy and even how much we’re willing to pay. And the financial benefits tend to fall far short of the initial promise. We talk to Sam A.A. Levine and Stephanie Nguyen about how loyalty programs exploit consumers, how California is fighting back and how we can stay alert to the pitfalls. Their recent paper is called “The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us with Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices.” What consumer loyalty programs do you use, and have you ever felt used… by them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"679\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"325\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"348\" data-end=\"355\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Chances are, as you’ve been holiday shopping, you’ve given away your personal information or joined a rewards program in exchange for a discount. Loyalty programs are everywhere, providing benefits for repeat customers or continued engagement, and they can feel like welcome relief in tight economic times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"891\">But according to my guests, they’ve also become data-harvesting machines, where companies watch us, sort us, and ultimately charge us not the same as everyone else, but the maximum price they think we’ll pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"893\" data-end=\"1290\">Sam Levine is senior fellow at the Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice at UC Berkeley Law School, and Stephanie Nguyen is senior fellow at Vanderbilt Policy Accelerator. They’re both former officials at the Federal Trade Commission under the Biden administration and authors of the paper \u003cem data-start=\"1190\" data-end=\"1287\">The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us With Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1292\" data-end=\"1323\">Sam Levine, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1322\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1349\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1387\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Stephanie Nguyen, also glad to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1498\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1469\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1618\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1513\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sam, I want to start with you. Can you remind us of the universe of loyalty programs that are out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1901\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1644\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Loyalty programs really are everywhere. They started in the airline industry — that’s where they’re probably most famous. Frequent flyer miles, maybe a few free trips. But now, every store I go into, I feel like I’m being asked to join a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1903\" data-end=\"2218\">I’m trying to check out, I’m in a rush, and they say, “Give me your phone number. Join our loyalty program.” This can be retail, hardware stores, department stores — you name it. Companies want us enrolled in these programs. And I think anyone who’s been shopping this holiday season has experienced the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2233\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And they really try to make it frictionless, right? They say, “Do it right now. The savings apply instantly. It’s free to start.” I imagine that’s why they’re so popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2757\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2436\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s so tempting. They’ll say all you need to do is enter a phone number and you get ten percent off right away. But one of the things we point out in the paper is that it’s not just your phone number you’re handing over. You’re often consenting to vast data collection that begins as soon as you give them permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2759\" data-end=\"2839\">So it looks really easy, but it sets you up for a lot of tracking down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"3030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"2854\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Stephanie, in your paper you talk about the evolution — or really the devolution — of these programs, meaning they’ve become more aggressive and manipulative over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3296\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3053\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think it’s important to start with the definition of a loyalty program. At a high level, it’s a system businesses use to keep customers coming back. They’ll do that through any means necessary — points, discounts, perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3298\" data-end=\"3538\">What we saw, after looking at dozens and dozens of loyalty programs, is what we describe as a three-part structure. The hook is where companies entice consumers with upfront benefits and discounts to attract them and keep them purchasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3540\" data-end=\"3818\">The hack is where they get your data. That data becomes the currency of their strategy and allows them to understand who you are — not just as someone in a broad demographic, but as a specific individual who just had a baby or who lives in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3820\" data-end=\"4020\">And the hike is the third piece. Companies can raise fees, cut benefits, or deploy coercive upselling tactics that essentially turn loyalty programs into a net cost for consumers instead of a benefit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4139\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4035\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you give us an example of how this plays out? I was particularly struck by your McDonald’s example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4470\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4162\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> McDonald’s, for the past ninety years, has offered a game called Monopoly — a paper-based peel-and-win game where you can win free Big Macs, fries, or even a million dollars or a Jeep Cherokee. They took a nine-year hiatus, and this year they brought it back with what they called a “modern digital spin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4472\" data-end=\"4723\">To play now, you have to download the app. You enter your peel codes into the app. McDonald’s has publicly said it currently has around 185 million active loyalty program users across markets, and it wants to increase that to 250 million active users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4766\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> If this strategy succeeds, the Monopoly game entices people to download the app and play for a chance at prizes. And if McDonald’s reaches that goal, it will have data on a quarter of a billion consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4975\" data-end=\"5149\">They’ve said they can infer things like intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes — all collected because you downloaded the app, lured by the chance to win prizes or free food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5164\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Sam, talk about that. What are they doing with those 250 million users? What exactly are they collecting about us to make those kinds of inferences?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5343\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> That’s part of the problem — we don’t really know. McDonald’s says on its website that when you join the loyalty program, they track psychological trends, predispositions, intelligence, and abilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5774\">Companies are using sophisticated data analysis systems, often powered by machine learning, to examine patterns — where we go, when we go, what we buy. Do I get a McMuffin every morning? Do I go late at night after drinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5776\" data-end=\"6008\">When companies can track tens of millions of people, they can combine all those data points and draw sophisticated inferences about income, preferences, weaknesses, and how much someone is willing to pay. The sky’s really the limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6023\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk more about how McDonald’s and other companies segment customers by willingness to pay — charging us right up to that limit. Are you saying that, for example, when ordering through DoorDash, people might see different prices for the same item?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6297\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Let me zoom out beyond McDonald’s and talk about the industry more broadly. What you’re describing is exactly right. Companies use loyalty programs to figure out when and how to nudge someone into buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6506\" data-end=\"6785\">McDonald’s found that before joining the loyalty program, people went about ten and a half times a year. After joining, that number jumped to twenty-six times a year. They’re cracking the code — figuring out what push notifications, games, or rewards get people into the store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6787\" data-end=\"7018\">We’ve seen this across industries. Delta Airlines, for example, talked on an investor call about wanting to engage in more personalized pricing. They described figuring out the maximum someone is willing to pay as the “holy grail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7033\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So this isn’t some distant future. This is already happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7121\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. For listeners in California, one thing we found useful is that state law allows you to request reports showing what data companies collect about you. Those reports often obscure more than they reveal, but they make clear just how vast the data collection is — including location data, device data, and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7445\" data-end=\"7605\">They also show how many third parties your data is shared or sold to. It can be eye-opening to see what’s really happening behind the promise of free discounts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is surveillance pricing legal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7860\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7677\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> As we say in law school — it depends. California attempted to pass an outright ban on surveillance pricing this year, but it didn’t pass. Other states are considering similar bans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7862\" data-end=\"8208\">That said, many pricing abuses are already illegal. False discounts, hard-to-cancel programs, or collecting more data than necessary can violate state and federal law. Our core point is that people shouldn’t have to choose between protecting their privacy and affording groceries — but that’s exactly the position many consumers are in right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8223\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What’s your reaction to companies using loyalty programs for surveillance pricing? What programs are you enrolled in, and have you ever felt manipulated by one? Or is there a loyalty program you actually like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8487\" data-end=\"8635\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8493\" data-end=\"8507\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8637\" data-end=\"8762\">We’re talking with Sam Levine and Stephanie Nguyen. We’ll have more with them — and with you — after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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