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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 10 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Anthropic sued the U.S. Department of Defense on Monday over its decision to designate the San Francisco AI company a “supply-chain risk to America’s national security.” That’s after the firm refused to let its systems be used for mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. Meanwhile, OpenAI has struck a deal with the Pentagon to deploy its own AI tools – a move that has triggered backlash inside the tech world. We take a close look at the relationship between Silicon Valley and the Pentagon and the ethics and effectiveness of using AI in war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California Congressman Ro Khanna has been busy introducing a war powers resolution along with Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie, arguing that the president could not initiate major combat operations against Iran without Congress. The resolution narrowly failed to come to a vote last week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Khanna and Massie are also the duo that forced the Department of Justice to release millions of pages of the Epstein files. And Khanna has been weighing in on the clash between the Pentagon and Anthropic as the ranking member of the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Cyber.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conflict over the Department of Defense’s use of Anthropic’s tools is a topic we’ll dig into later this hour. But first, I’m joined by Silicon Valley Congressman Ro Khanna.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you have questions for the congressman, listeners, now is the time to email us or post them on our social channels. Congressman Khanna, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mina, it’s good to be back. Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I really appreciate you giving us your time. The president has been giving conflicting statements on the war, saying early yesterday that it’s very complete and will be over pretty quickly—totally and decisively defeated—and then suggesting it would not end this week. I want to know how you read these mixed signals, Congressman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s very concerning and sad to me. I hope he ends this war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have already lost, as you know, seven service members. Many of our troops and service members are at risk. We’re spending over a billion dollars a day. To put that in perspective, if we are in Iran for fifty days, that’s enough to have free public college for everyone in America.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a war that does not have a clear objective. So far we’ve replaced Khamenei, who led a brutal regime, with Khamenei Jr. We’ve replaced an 86-year-old hardliner with his 56-year-old son, who is an equal hardliner. And it’s unclear what objectives are being met.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have said very clearly that Democrats should not provide a single new dollar for this Iran operation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But how do you make that possible? You introduced a nonbinding war powers resolution that failed to come to a vote in the House. The Senate introduced a similar measure that also narrowly failed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now Senate Democrats have filed a new wave of war powers resolutions. But Congressman, what’s the value of these given—as you yourself said—that the president would not agree to them even if the chambers were able to pass something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, as Bernie Sanders and I showed years ago when we passed the Yemen War Powers Resolution during Trump’s first term—even though Trump vetoed it—there was so much pressure that he voluntarily suspended the refueling of Saudi planes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Congress speaking out does matter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, as you pointed out, we held every Democrat before but lost the vote by a few. We need to continue to put pressure on the administration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My view is that we may win over some Republicans as they see the price of oil going up, as they see constituents facing higher gas prices, as they see the markets in turmoil because of the shock this has caused to the global economy, and as they see more of our service members at risk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The interesting thing is this war is already unpopular. Usually it takes a few weeks or months before a war becomes unpopular. I don’t expect the war becoming more popular as we go along.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hope the president ends it. But if not, Congress needs to continue putting pressure so that we can bring it to an end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why do you think he started it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was talked into it, or he believes—with his advisers—that somehow they can bring about a new regime in Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously Iran’s killing of those protesters was horrific. They committed crimes against humanity against their own citizens. No one is going to defend the IRGC. The IRGC has also committed terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The president was convinced that he could significantly stop that killing or stop the regime. But the reality is that when we’ve interfered in the past—in Iraq and Libya—it has not worked out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so far we’ve replaced, like I said, one hardliner with his son, who is an equal hardliner. The IRGC is still in place. Americans have died. Billions of dollars have been spent. And it’s unclear what the objective is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if we are further degrading the military weapons there, that’s something they can rebuild in a year or two, just like they’ve rebuilt things since we bombed them six months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s certainly drawn attention away from the next development I want to ask you about, and that is the Epstein files—in particular the missing pages detailing allegations from a woman that Trump sexually abused her as a minor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Department of Justice late last week released sixteen of the fifty-three pages that NPR reported were missing. Those included more details that allowed news outlets to verify parts of her testimony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are your next steps on this, Congressman?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, Thomas Massie and my Epstein Transparency Act is the most significant legislation that a Democrat has introduced and gotten passed by Trump.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve gotten 50 percent of the files out. It’s shocked the conscience—the number of survivors, over 1,200, who were raped as young girls; the number of powerful people involved in finance, real estate, technology, Hollywood, and around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s led to prosecutions of figures including Prince Andrew, Lord Mendelsohn, and a former Norwegian prime minister.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We need accountability here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing you pointed out is that some of this was covered up. There was an allegation—I don’t know if it’s true—by a woman that she was raped by President Trump when she was 13. They released one interview but withheld three others. It was Massie and my advocacy, along with journalism, that forced the release of those additional interviews.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as I said, I have no idea about the merits of the claim. But the point is they cannot cover this up. We’re going to pursue every avenue—legal and through Congress—to get the rest of the files released and hold the rich and powerful people who abused these girls accountable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you help me understand why it’s been so hard to get these files, especially after the president promised to release them on the campaign trail?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve gotten to know the survivors personally. They’ve been in tears in my office. They’ve relived trauma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These women have been abused and abandoned for thirty years by our country. One filed a complaint in Santa Monica in 1997 about being raped, and nothing happened. Someone filed with the FBI in 1996 about similar allegations, and nothing happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rich and powerful worked with Epstein to traffic and abuse these girls. They targeted girls from working-class families. They targeted girls without fathers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a terrible indictment of the powerful in our country and what they were getting away with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We forced this issue because Trump promised to release the files but didn’t follow through. So Thomas Massie and I took it up, and against all odds we passed a discharge petition. There have only been five discharge petitions passed in the history of Congress since 1935.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got Donald Trump to sign my bill. It passed 427 to 1 in the House and unanimously in the Senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miraculously we’ve gotten half the files released. Julia Brown at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miami Herald\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has been working on this issue for ten years and didn’t even expect us to get this far because it exposes so many powerful people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we’re going to continue fighting. Every time we push, more files are released. They’re supposed to release another 40,000 pages. They’re currently in violation of the law, but I’m confident we will get the rest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Congressman, what is the value of this effort given that consequences have been elusive? Some critics worry that releasing files could make prosecutions harder.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prosecutions are taking place elsewhere in the world—in Norway, France, and Britain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree that the administration has not pursued the prosecutions that should happen here. But there have been resignations in the United States. And frankly, there shouldn’t be buildings or universities named after some of the people in these files who abused young girls or went to Epstein’s island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there have been at least social consequences. But there absolutely need to be investigations and prosecutions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem is that Attorney General Pam Bondi has shown no interest in doing that. Survivors contact me and say they see the men who abused them walking free.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This may take another administration before we see real prosecutions. But for me, this is a deeply personal issue. I’ve met dozens of these survivors. They’ve endured tremendous trauma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is about justice for them, and I’m not going to rest until we get the full release of the files and real accountability.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Congressman, on Anthropic: in the next segment we’re looking at the Pentagon’s clash with the AI company over its position that it doesn’t want its technology used for mass surveillance or autonomous weaponry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You praised Anthropic for taking this position. Should a private company be able to dictate how the Pentagon uses its technology in military operations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Companies should be able to say their technology must meet basic safety standards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ultimately, Congress should set those standards. But I don’t believe AI should be used to kill people without a human being in the loop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dario Amodei at Anthropic was in my office a week before he made that statement. All he was saying is that AI should not be making decisions about killing people. You shouldn’t have AI striking a school somewhere without human oversight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even with humans in the loop we’ve seen tragedies—like the Iranian school where girls were killed. So we need stronger safeguards, not weaker ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anthropic is also saying its technology shouldn’t be used for mass surveillance of Americans—building profiles of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Congress should regulate this. We should say AI can’t be used for autonomous killing and can’t be used for domestic mass surveillance. But in the absence of regulation, it’s important for tech leaders to draw ethical lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you see at stake here? We just have about thirty seconds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s at stake is innocent people being killed because AI malfunctions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s at stake is Americans having profiles built about them, where the federal government surveils them in violation of their basic rights.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, who represents California’s 17th District, is the ranking member of the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Cyber, Innovative Technologies, and Information Systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for giving us your time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. Good to be on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And listeners, we’ll be talking about the latest developments in the controversy between the Pentagon and Anthropic after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You are listening to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Anthropic-Pentagon Clash Spotlights Role of AI in War | KQED",
"description": "Airdate: Tuesday, March 10 at 10 AM Anthropic sued the U.S. Department of Defense on Monday over its decision to designate the San Francisco AI company a “supply-chain risk to America’s national security.” That’s after the firm refused to let its systems be used for mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. Meanwhile, OpenAI has struck a deal with the Pentagon to deploy its own AI tools – a move that has triggered backlash inside the tech world. We take a close look at the relationship between Silicon Valley and the Pentagon and the ethics and effectiveness of using AI in war.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 10 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Anthropic sued the U.S. Department of Defense on Monday over its decision to designate the San Francisco AI company a “supply-chain risk to America’s national security.” That’s after the firm refused to let its systems be used for mass surveillance or autonomous weapons. Meanwhile, OpenAI has struck a deal with the Pentagon to deploy its own AI tools – a move that has triggered backlash inside the tech world. We take a close look at the relationship between Silicon Valley and the Pentagon and the ethics and effectiveness of using AI in war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California Congressman Ro Khanna has been busy introducing a war powers resolution along with Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie, arguing that the president could not initiate major combat operations against Iran without Congress. The resolution narrowly failed to come to a vote last week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Khanna and Massie are also the duo that forced the Department of Justice to release millions of pages of the Epstein files. And Khanna has been weighing in on the clash between the Pentagon and Anthropic as the ranking member of the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Cyber.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The conflict over the Department of Defense’s use of Anthropic’s tools is a topic we’ll dig into later this hour. But first, I’m joined by Silicon Valley Congressman Ro Khanna.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you have questions for the congressman, listeners, now is the time to email us or post them on our social channels. Congressman Khanna, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mina, it’s good to be back. Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I really appreciate you giving us your time. The president has been giving conflicting statements on the war, saying early yesterday that it’s very complete and will be over pretty quickly—totally and decisively defeated—and then suggesting it would not end this week. I want to know how you read these mixed signals, Congressman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s very concerning and sad to me. I hope he ends this war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have already lost, as you know, seven service members. Many of our troops and service members are at risk. We’re spending over a billion dollars a day. To put that in perspective, if we are in Iran for fifty days, that’s enough to have free public college for everyone in America.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this is a war that does not have a clear objective. So far we’ve replaced Khamenei, who led a brutal regime, with Khamenei Jr. We’ve replaced an 86-year-old hardliner with his 56-year-old son, who is an equal hardliner. And it’s unclear what objectives are being met.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have said very clearly that Democrats should not provide a single new dollar for this Iran operation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But how do you make that possible? You introduced a nonbinding war powers resolution that failed to come to a vote in the House. The Senate introduced a similar measure that also narrowly failed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now Senate Democrats have filed a new wave of war powers resolutions. But Congressman, what’s the value of these given—as you yourself said—that the president would not agree to them even if the chambers were able to pass something?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, as Bernie Sanders and I showed years ago when we passed the Yemen War Powers Resolution during Trump’s first term—even though Trump vetoed it—there was so much pressure that he voluntarily suspended the refueling of Saudi planes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Congress speaking out does matter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, as you pointed out, we held every Democrat before but lost the vote by a few. We need to continue to put pressure on the administration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My view is that we may win over some Republicans as they see the price of oil going up, as they see constituents facing higher gas prices, as they see the markets in turmoil because of the shock this has caused to the global economy, and as they see more of our service members at risk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The interesting thing is this war is already unpopular. Usually it takes a few weeks or months before a war becomes unpopular. I don’t expect the war becoming more popular as we go along.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I hope the president ends it. But if not, Congress needs to continue putting pressure so that we can bring it to an end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why do you think he started it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was talked into it, or he believes—with his advisers—that somehow they can bring about a new regime in Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously Iran’s killing of those protesters was horrific. They committed crimes against humanity against their own citizens. No one is going to defend the IRGC. The IRGC has also committed terrorism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The president was convinced that he could significantly stop that killing or stop the regime. But the reality is that when we’ve interfered in the past—in Iraq and Libya—it has not worked out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so far we’ve replaced, like I said, one hardliner with his son, who is an equal hardliner. The IRGC is still in place. Americans have died. Billions of dollars have been spent. And it’s unclear what the objective is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even if we are further degrading the military weapons there, that’s something they can rebuild in a year or two, just like they’ve rebuilt things since we bombed them six months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s certainly drawn attention away from the next development I want to ask you about, and that is the Epstein files—in particular the missing pages detailing allegations from a woman that Trump sexually abused her as a minor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Department of Justice late last week released sixteen of the fifty-three pages that NPR reported were missing. Those included more details that allowed news outlets to verify parts of her testimony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are your next steps on this, Congressman?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, Thomas Massie and my Epstein Transparency Act is the most significant legislation that a Democrat has introduced and gotten passed by Trump.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve gotten 50 percent of the files out. It’s shocked the conscience—the number of survivors, over 1,200, who were raped as young girls; the number of powerful people involved in finance, real estate, technology, Hollywood, and around the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s led to prosecutions of figures including Prince Andrew, Lord Mendelsohn, and a former Norwegian prime minister.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We need accountability here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing you pointed out is that some of this was covered up. There was an allegation—I don’t know if it’s true—by a woman that she was raped by President Trump when she was 13. They released one interview but withheld three others. It was Massie and my advocacy, along with journalism, that forced the release of those additional interviews.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as I said, I have no idea about the merits of the claim. But the point is they cannot cover this up. We’re going to pursue every avenue—legal and through Congress—to get the rest of the files released and hold the rich and powerful people who abused these girls accountable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can you help me understand why it’s been so hard to get these files, especially after the president promised to release them on the campaign trail?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve gotten to know the survivors personally. They’ve been in tears in my office. They’ve relived trauma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These women have been abused and abandoned for thirty years by our country. One filed a complaint in Santa Monica in 1997 about being raped, and nothing happened. Someone filed with the FBI in 1996 about similar allegations, and nothing happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The rich and powerful worked with Epstein to traffic and abuse these girls. They targeted girls from working-class families. They targeted girls without fathers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a terrible indictment of the powerful in our country and what they were getting away with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We forced this issue because Trump promised to release the files but didn’t follow through. So Thomas Massie and I took it up, and against all odds we passed a discharge petition. There have only been five discharge petitions passed in the history of Congress since 1935.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We got Donald Trump to sign my bill. It passed 427 to 1 in the House and unanimously in the Senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miraculously we’ve gotten half the files released. Julia Brown at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miami Herald\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has been working on this issue for ten years and didn’t even expect us to get this far because it exposes so many powerful people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we’re going to continue fighting. Every time we push, more files are released. They’re supposed to release another 40,000 pages. They’re currently in violation of the law, but I’m confident we will get the rest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Congressman, what is the value of this effort given that consequences have been elusive? Some critics worry that releasing files could make prosecutions harder.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Prosecutions are taking place elsewhere in the world—in Norway, France, and Britain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I agree that the administration has not pursued the prosecutions that should happen here. But there have been resignations in the United States. And frankly, there shouldn’t be buildings or universities named after some of the people in these files who abused young girls or went to Epstein’s island.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there have been at least social consequences. But there absolutely need to be investigations and prosecutions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem is that Attorney General Pam Bondi has shown no interest in doing that. Survivors contact me and say they see the men who abused them walking free.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This may take another administration before we see real prosecutions. But for me, this is a deeply personal issue. I’ve met dozens of these survivors. They’ve endured tremendous trauma.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is about justice for them, and I’m not going to rest until we get the full release of the files and real accountability.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Congressman, on Anthropic: in the next segment we’re looking at the Pentagon’s clash with the AI company over its position that it doesn’t want its technology used for mass surveillance or autonomous weaponry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You praised Anthropic for taking this position. Should a private company be able to dictate how the Pentagon uses its technology in military operations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Companies should be able to say their technology must meet basic safety standards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ultimately, Congress should set those standards. But I don’t believe AI should be used to kill people without a human being in the loop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dario Amodei at Anthropic was in my office a week before he made that statement. All he was saying is that AI should not be making decisions about killing people. You shouldn’t have AI striking a school somewhere without human oversight.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even with humans in the loop we’ve seen tragedies—like the Iranian school where girls were killed. So we need stronger safeguards, not weaker ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anthropic is also saying its technology shouldn’t be used for mass surveillance of Americans—building profiles of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Congress should regulate this. We should say AI can’t be used for autonomous killing and can’t be used for domestic mass surveillance. But in the absence of regulation, it’s important for tech leaders to draw ethical lines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you see at stake here? We just have about thirty seconds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s at stake is innocent people being killed because AI malfunctions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what’s at stake is Americans having profiles built about them, where the federal government surveils them in violation of their basic rights.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, who represents California’s 17th District, is the ranking member of the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Cyber, Innovative Technologies, and Information Systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much for giving us your time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ro Khanna:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. Good to be on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And listeners, we’ll be talking about the latest developments in the controversy between the Pentagon and Anthropic after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You are listening to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 10 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Monday, President Trump declared the war in Iran “very complete” as missile and drone strikes continue. Trump’s comments belie the situation on the ground. In its second week, the war in Iran that began with Israeli and US airstrikes has embroiled the Middle East. Iran has hit targets in Oman, Bahrain, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia, among other Middle Eastern states. Oil prices have skyrocketed to over $100 a barrel and Iran has appointed a new supreme leader, Mojtaba Khamenei, son of the recently killed supreme leader, who many expect to continue his father’s hardline tendencies. We’ll talk about the war, its impact on international alliances, and what might come next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The war with Iran began with the brute force of the American and Israeli militaries. The U.S. military says it has executed more than 5,000 strikes so far, which is more than in entire years of the Iraq War. That is to say, we spend a lot of money on our weapons, and those have been unleashed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But wars do not have only one side, and this particular one probably has a dozen. We’re going to talk about how the entire Middle East has been pulled into this conflict and how its repercussions could hit home here in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Welcome, Mona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. A pleasure to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to have you. We’re also joined by Dalia Dassa Kaye, a senior fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations. She’s the author of the book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enduring Hostility: The Making of America’s Iran Policy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Welcome, Dalia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dalia Dassa Kaye:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be with you. Thanks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also going to start with Nabih Bulos, Middle East bureau chief with the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Los Angeles Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Nabih joins us from Beirut. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. How are you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. Nabih, just tell us what it’s like in Beirut. There have been strikes by the Israeli military. What is life like there right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it should be said this is not the first time this has happened. We had a recent conflagration with Israel in 2024. Beirut, unfortunately, because of a long acquaintance with war, has fallen back into a kind of habit that all places eventually develop—where the war is localized in certain neighborhoods, but in other parts of town things can seem almost normal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fact of the matter is that even now, the suburbs where Hezbollah dominates—areas that have been the main target of the Israeli air force over the last few days—have received warnings of a new round of attacks. But where I am, in the Christian quarter of the capital, things are quite calm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, traffic is subdued and people are worried, but shops remain open and life continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why has Lebanon been such a major focus in this conflict with Iran?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, the fact of the matter is that Lebanon—or more accurately Hezbollah, which is a Lebanese Shiite militant group—used to be the crown jewel of Iran’s proxies, or allied groups.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iran has long nurtured factions in various countries, and Hezbollah has been the top one. It has had a longstanding conflict with Israel. After October 7, Hezbollah intervened in support of Hamas, and that escalated into a full-fledged war later on when Israel launched an invasion of Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a ceasefire back in November of 2024, but since then Israel has essentially violated that ceasefire every day and maintained a presence on Lebanese territory. Finally, when Khamenei was killed, Hezbollah decided to enter the fray once more, saying it was in vengeance for Khamenei and also to avenge what it called fifteen months of repeated Israeli ceasefire violations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tell us a little bit about the relationship Hezbollah has with the Lebanese government at this point. All these wars must have taken their toll on Hezbollah’s military capabilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s worth noting that Hezbollah actually has a presence in Lebanon’s government. This is a group that entered parliament in 2008, and for a while it had the largest bloc within parliament. Its politicians and MPs have been known to be quite hardworking and effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That said, many believe Hezbollah’s political wing has worked to undermine the Lebanese state so it can continue acting as a state within a state.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So although Hezbollah is technically part of the government, there is antagonism from various quarters. The current cabinet has been among the most antagonistic toward Hezbollah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In fact, Hezbollah’s military activities were outlawed by the Lebanese government after the most recent escalation. At the same time, there has been a move to disarm the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the main source of tension now. The public version of the ceasefire suggested Hezbollah would disarm in southern Lebanon, but the government is now saying the group must disarm everywhere in the country. That, of course, is complicated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In trying to think this through, how would the Lebanese government even de-escalate? How does diplomacy work when the government is caught between Hezbollah, Israel, and the United States?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The issue is that Hezbollah says it will not give up its weapons as long as Israel maintains a presence on Lebanese territory. And Israel insists it will maintain a presence as long as Hezbollah remains armed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s a catch-22.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the last fifteen months of the ceasefire, Hezbollah admittedly did not fire a single shot, even as Israel continued attacks almost daily on southern Lebanon and other parts of the country. Israel said this was to stop Hezbollah from reconstituting itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s difficult for Hezbollah to justify giving up arms when its entire raison d’être is fighting Israel and liberating Lebanese territory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government is caught in the middle because it cannot disarm Hezbollah by force. Quite frankly, the Lebanese army is not strong enough. And attempting to do so could spark a civil war, with Lebanese soldiers fighting fellow citizens. That could create a much larger conflagration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How intense is the bombing campaign? Members of the Israeli government have threatened to bomb southern Lebanon with the same force directed at Gaza. Is that actually happening?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Over the last fifteen months, that did happen in parts of southern Lebanon. If you look at the five-kilometer strip along the border, there isn’t a single house standing. Border villages have essentially been razed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re seeing now is a continuation of that policy. In some areas, Israeli forces go in and destroy every building in a village or town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Dahieh, near Beirut, we haven’t seen that yet. But the endgame is still unclear, and we don’t know when this war will stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mona Yacoubian, as we think about what’s happening in Lebanon, what paths do you see for escalation or de-escalation?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lebanon now constitutes a second front in the war between Israel and Iran. At the moment it is Israel engaging Hezbollah in Lebanon, but the broader conflict with Iran is clearly connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re watching could produce what I call \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">exponential escalation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Hezbollah launched rocket and drone strikes against Israel last week. That prompted a massive Israeli response, which we’re continuing to watch unfold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, it increased pressure on the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah. As Nabih noted, that could provoke civil strife or even civil war in Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That would be escalation emerging indirectly from the Iran conflict but rooted in Lebanon’s internal tensions. Unfortunately, there are many such potential flashpoints across the Middle East.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nabih Bulos, what are Lebanese government officials saying about their plan right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The plan at this point is unclear. There have been attempts to de-escalate, but the issue is not really with the Lebanese government—it is with Hezbollah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As far as I’ve heard, communication between the government and Hezbollah has nearly stopped. The government’s main interlocutor with Hezbollah is reportedly quite angry with the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was also a surprise. Before the war with Iran began, Lebanese officials said they had assurances from Hezbollah that it would stay out of the conflict. Those assurances were repeated the night Khamenei was declared dead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Hezbollah escalated, which prompted a massive Israeli response—around 80 aircraft attacking hundreds of targets and killing, so far, about 500 people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hezbollah claims that response proves Israel had already planned such an attack and says its own actions were preemptive. That has been their justification for entering the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mona, if the Iran war ended tomorrow, what happens in Lebanon?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Unfortunately, we could still see continuing conflict in Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After October 7, 2023, Hezbollah initiated strikes against Israel that led to more than a year of war between the two sides. The underlying drivers of that conflict have not been resolved, as Nabih explained.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also an unintended consequence worth noting. When Israel decimated Hezbollah leadership and forces throughout 2024, it actually made Hezbollah more dependent on Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With so many Hezbollah fighters killed, more Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps elements moved into Lebanon and began playing a larger role. So in a sense, the current Hezbollah is more directly controlled by Iran than before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve been talking with Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Nabih Bulos joined us from Beirut, where he serves as Middle East bureau chief for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Los Angeles Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Nabih.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After the break, we’re going to talk with Dalia Dassa Kaye, senior fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 10 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On Monday, President Trump declared the war in Iran “very complete” as missile and drone strikes continue. Trump’s comments belie the situation on the ground. In its second week, the war in Iran that began with Israeli and US airstrikes has embroiled the Middle East. Iran has hit targets in Oman, Bahrain, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia, among other Middle Eastern states. Oil prices have skyrocketed to over $100 a barrel and Iran has appointed a new supreme leader, Mojtaba Khamenei, son of the recently killed supreme leader, who many expect to continue his father’s hardline tendencies. We’ll talk about the war, its impact on international alliances, and what might come next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The war with Iran began with the brute force of the American and Israeli militaries. The U.S. military says it has executed more than 5,000 strikes so far, which is more than in entire years of the Iraq War. That is to say, we spend a lot of money on our weapons, and those have been unleashed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But wars do not have only one side, and this particular one probably has a dozen. We’re going to talk about how the entire Middle East has been pulled into this conflict and how its repercussions could hit home here in the U.S.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re joined by Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Welcome, Mona.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. A pleasure to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to have you. We’re also joined by Dalia Dassa Kaye, a senior fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations. She’s the author of the book \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Enduring Hostility: The Making of America’s Iran Policy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Welcome, Dalia.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dalia Dassa Kaye:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great to be with you. Thanks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also going to start with Nabih Bulos, Middle East bureau chief with the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Los Angeles Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Nabih joins us from Beirut. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. How are you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. Nabih, just tell us what it’s like in Beirut. There have been strikes by the Israeli military. What is life like there right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it should be said this is not the first time this has happened. We had a recent conflagration with Israel in 2024. Beirut, unfortunately, because of a long acquaintance with war, has fallen back into a kind of habit that all places eventually develop—where the war is localized in certain neighborhoods, but in other parts of town things can seem almost normal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fact of the matter is that even now, the suburbs where Hezbollah dominates—areas that have been the main target of the Israeli air force over the last few days—have received warnings of a new round of attacks. But where I am, in the Christian quarter of the capital, things are quite calm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, traffic is subdued and people are worried, but shops remain open and life continues.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why has Lebanon been such a major focus in this conflict with Iran?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, the fact of the matter is that Lebanon—or more accurately Hezbollah, which is a Lebanese Shiite militant group—used to be the crown jewel of Iran’s proxies, or allied groups.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Iran has long nurtured factions in various countries, and Hezbollah has been the top one. It has had a longstanding conflict with Israel. After October 7, Hezbollah intervened in support of Hamas, and that escalated into a full-fledged war later on when Israel launched an invasion of Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was a ceasefire back in November of 2024, but since then Israel has essentially violated that ceasefire every day and maintained a presence on Lebanese territory. Finally, when Khamenei was killed, Hezbollah decided to enter the fray once more, saying it was in vengeance for Khamenei and also to avenge what it called fifteen months of repeated Israeli ceasefire violations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tell us a little bit about the relationship Hezbollah has with the Lebanese government at this point. All these wars must have taken their toll on Hezbollah’s military capabilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s worth noting that Hezbollah actually has a presence in Lebanon’s government. This is a group that entered parliament in 2008, and for a while it had the largest bloc within parliament. Its politicians and MPs have been known to be quite hardworking and effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That said, many believe Hezbollah’s political wing has worked to undermine the Lebanese state so it can continue acting as a state within a state.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So although Hezbollah is technically part of the government, there is antagonism from various quarters. The current cabinet has been among the most antagonistic toward Hezbollah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In fact, Hezbollah’s military activities were outlawed by the Lebanese government after the most recent escalation. At the same time, there has been a move to disarm the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the main source of tension now. The public version of the ceasefire suggested Hezbollah would disarm in southern Lebanon, but the government is now saying the group must disarm everywhere in the country. That, of course, is complicated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In trying to think this through, how would the Lebanese government even de-escalate? How does diplomacy work when the government is caught between Hezbollah, Israel, and the United States?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The issue is that Hezbollah says it will not give up its weapons as long as Israel maintains a presence on Lebanese territory. And Israel insists it will maintain a presence as long as Hezbollah remains armed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s a catch-22.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over the last fifteen months of the ceasefire, Hezbollah admittedly did not fire a single shot, even as Israel continued attacks almost daily on southern Lebanon and other parts of the country. Israel said this was to stop Hezbollah from reconstituting itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s difficult for Hezbollah to justify giving up arms when its entire raison d’être is fighting Israel and liberating Lebanese territory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The government is caught in the middle because it cannot disarm Hezbollah by force. Quite frankly, the Lebanese army is not strong enough. And attempting to do so could spark a civil war, with Lebanese soldiers fighting fellow citizens. That could create a much larger conflagration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How intense is the bombing campaign? Members of the Israeli government have threatened to bomb southern Lebanon with the same force directed at Gaza. Is that actually happening?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Over the last fifteen months, that did happen in parts of southern Lebanon. If you look at the five-kilometer strip along the border, there isn’t a single house standing. Border villages have essentially been razed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re seeing now is a continuation of that policy. In some areas, Israeli forces go in and destroy every building in a village or town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Dahieh, near Beirut, we haven’t seen that yet. But the endgame is still unclear, and we don’t know when this war will stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mona Yacoubian, as we think about what’s happening in Lebanon, what paths do you see for escalation or de-escalation?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Lebanon now constitutes a second front in the war between Israel and Iran. At the moment it is Israel engaging Hezbollah in Lebanon, but the broader conflict with Iran is clearly connected.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What we’re watching could produce what I call \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">exponential escalation\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Hezbollah launched rocket and drone strikes against Israel last week. That prompted a massive Israeli response, which we’re continuing to watch unfold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, it increased pressure on the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah. As Nabih noted, that could provoke civil strife or even civil war in Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That would be escalation emerging indirectly from the Iran conflict but rooted in Lebanon’s internal tensions. Unfortunately, there are many such potential flashpoints across the Middle East.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nabih Bulos, what are Lebanese government officials saying about their plan right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The plan at this point is unclear. There have been attempts to de-escalate, but the issue is not really with the Lebanese government—it is with Hezbollah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As far as I’ve heard, communication between the government and Hezbollah has nearly stopped. The government’s main interlocutor with Hezbollah is reportedly quite angry with the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was also a surprise. Before the war with Iran began, Lebanese officials said they had assurances from Hezbollah that it would stay out of the conflict. Those assurances were repeated the night Khamenei was declared dead.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then Hezbollah escalated, which prompted a massive Israeli response—around 80 aircraft attacking hundreds of targets and killing, so far, about 500 people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hezbollah claims that response proves Israel had already planned such an attack and says its own actions were preemptive. That has been their justification for entering the war.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mona, if the Iran war ended tomorrow, what happens in Lebanon?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Unfortunately, we could still see continuing conflict in Lebanon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After October 7, 2023, Hezbollah initiated strikes against Israel that led to more than a year of war between the two sides. The underlying drivers of that conflict have not been resolved, as Nabih explained.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also an unintended consequence worth noting. When Israel decimated Hezbollah leadership and forces throughout 2024, it actually made Hezbollah more dependent on Iran.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With so many Hezbollah fighters killed, more Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps elements moved into Lebanon and began playing a larger role. So in a sense, the current Hezbollah is more directly controlled by Iran than before.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’ve been talking with Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Nabih Bulos joined us from Beirut, where he serves as Middle East bureau chief for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Los Angeles Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thank you so much, Nabih.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nabih Bulos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After the break, we’re going to talk with Dalia Dassa Kaye, senior fellow at the UCLA Burkle Center for International Relations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"headline": "Is It Time for California to Consider a \"Soft Secession\"?",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-bruce-lee-helped-shape-asian-american-culture",
"title": "How Bruce Lee Helped Shape Asian American Culture",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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