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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“When we give a scented flower, bring blooms to a grave, or dab perfume onto our skin, we are not enacting arbitrary, merely symbolic rituals. Rather, we invoke the relationships with flowering plants from which the ecology of the planet is made, and which created and sustain human life.” So writes acclaimed biologist David George Haskell, whose new book “How Flowers Made Our World” paints flowers as revolutionaries that have determined the evolution of all life on earth — and who need our help to weather climate change. He joins us and we hear from you: What role do flowers play in your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"60\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"36\" data-end=\"43\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"62\" data-end=\"577\">Flowers appear at nearly every significant human life transition and gathering place, says biologist David George Haskell—flowers on a grave, a shower of petals for newlyweds, floral garlands and altar pieces in places of worship. We may at times dismiss flowers as superficially pretty or box them into narrow symbolic roles, Haskell writes, but their presence at the center of acts of love, grief, community, worship, and cultivation reveals that, deep down, we understand the life-giving importance of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"579\" data-end=\"888\">In a new book, Haskell deepens that intuitive understanding, showing that flowers are not just beautiful or ornamental, but powerful—setting Earth on an entirely new course when they appeared some 200 million years ago. His book is called \u003cem data-start=\"818\" data-end=\"885\">How Flowers Made Our World: The Story of Nature’s Revolutionaries\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"890\" data-end=\"1033\">And listeners, tell us: what flower marks a significant moment or place for you? David Haskell, so glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1014\" data-end=\"1021\">Forum\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1053\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Mina. It’s such a pleasure to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1124\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to start by talking about a “flower” that many of us don’t even think of as one—grasses. Their effect on humans, animals, and habitats really illustrates what you mean when you say flowers are revolutionary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1361\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes, I love that you’re leading with grasses because, of course, most of us think of grass as just a green carpet—we don’t pay much attention. But grasses are flowering plants. They’re a relatively recent arrival in the evolution of flowering plants, and when they appeared, they revolutionized the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1671\" data-end=\"2039\">They created steppes, prairies, and savannas—entirely new habitats. They did that partly by interacting with fire and grazing mammals in complex relationships that unfolded over millions of years. And then one clever little ape—our prehuman ancestors—came down out of the trees onto these grasslands and fed themselves from grasses and from animals that ate grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2041\" data-end=\"2330\">So without grasses, we humans would not have evolved. Fast forward to today, and about 66 percent of all food calories eaten by humans come from just three species of grasses: wheat, maize, and rice. Much of the rest—pasture grasses, sugarcane, millet, oats, and barley—are also grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2477\">If we named ourselves based on what we eat, we should be called “grass apes”—both for our diet and for the plants that catalyzed our evolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2627\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2492\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How big do you think the human population would be if we hadn’t discovered how edible grasses are—how well they work for our bodies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2862\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2647\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> There wouldn’t even be a human population without grasses. Our ancestors were small-brained apes living in trees, eating fruits and insects. There’s a long evolutionary journey from that to modern \u003cem data-start=\"2845\" data-end=\"2859\">Homo sapiens\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2864\" data-end=\"3215\">Without grasses, we might number in the thousands or tens of thousands—not the eight-plus billion we have today. Many predictions of mass starvation in the 19th and 20th centuries didn’t come true largely because of the enormous productivity of grasses. People at the time didn’t realize just how transformative grasses would be in feeding humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3380\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3230\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You also say that if we really look at how grasses survive—especially seeds—we can see what you call “mothering” at work. What do you mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3555\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3400\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> One of the key innovations of flowering plants, which helped them take over the planet about 130 million years ago, is enhanced maternal care for seeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3557\" data-end=\"3890\">Part of that is the fruit that surrounds seeds. Fruits can be dry and explosive, or they can attract birds, or float in water. Inside the seed, there’s another gift from the mother plant: a tissue called the endosperm. It’s rich in starch, oils, and proteins—essentially a food reserve meant to nourish the embryo as it germinates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3892\" data-end=\"4150\">We—and many other animals—figured out how to eat that. If you open a bag of flour, you’re mostly looking at ground-up endosperm. Birds, insects, and other animals that eat seeds are, in a sense, being “mothered” by flowering plants through this innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4275\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You describe the endosperm as a kind of disturbing sibling relationship—but fascinating nonetheless, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4295\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes. When pollen fertilizes a plant, two sperm cells are involved. One fertilizes the egg to form the embryo—that’s familiar. But the other joins with two cells to form the endosperm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4483\" data-end=\"4697\">That endosperm is essentially a doomed sibling. Its role is to grow into a nutrient-rich tissue that will be consumed by the embryo. There’s something a bit unsettling about that—it’s a kind of sibling sacrifice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4699\" data-end=\"4842\">But it’s also part of the intricate choreography of plant life—cells and genes moving in precise ways to ensure the next generation succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"5068\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"4857\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David George Haskell, biologist and author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4964\">How Flowers Made Our World\u003c/em>. You may also remember him from his previous books \u003cem data-start=\"5016\" data-end=\"5040\">Sounds Wild and Broken\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"5045\" data-end=\"5065\">The Songs of Trees\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5253\">Listeners, what questions do you have about flowers—their science and how they grow? What role do flowers play in your life? Do you have a favorite flower tied to a memory or place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5255\" data-end=\"5388\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5267\" data-end=\"5281\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum. Or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5390\" data-end=\"5629\">David, you’ve described how flowering plants have shaped evolution and human life—and that about 90 percent of plant species today are flowering plants. Yet they’re not at the center of the story of how our world came to be. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5649\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> It’s a very old bias. If you look at Paleolithic cave paintings, they’re mostly focused on animals. In Europe, fewer than one percent depict plants, and virtually none show flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5835\" data-end=\"6100\">Even today, we tend to focus on animals—whether in art, media, or natural history museums. Animals are edible, dangerous, or expressive in ways that grab our attention. Plants, by contrast, don’t have faces or behaviors that trigger our instincts in the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6255\">In modern society, we’ve also boxed flowers into a narrow role: pretty, decorative, and often gendered as feminine—and therefore seen as less powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6507\">All of this minimizes their importance. But over the last 100 million years, flowering plants have built the ecosystems—rainforests, prairies, and more—that support life on Earth. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“When we give a scented flower, bring blooms to a grave, or dab perfume onto our skin, we are not enacting arbitrary, merely symbolic rituals. Rather, we invoke the relationships with flowering plants from which the ecology of the planet is made, and which created and sustain human life.” So writes acclaimed biologist David George Haskell, whose new book “How Flowers Made Our World” paints flowers as revolutionaries that have determined the evolution of all life on earth — and who need our help to weather climate change. He joins us and we hear from you: What role do flowers play in your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"60\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"36\" data-end=\"43\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"62\" data-end=\"577\">Flowers appear at nearly every significant human life transition and gathering place, says biologist David George Haskell—flowers on a grave, a shower of petals for newlyweds, floral garlands and altar pieces in places of worship. We may at times dismiss flowers as superficially pretty or box them into narrow symbolic roles, Haskell writes, but their presence at the center of acts of love, grief, community, worship, and cultivation reveals that, deep down, we understand the life-giving importance of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"579\" data-end=\"888\">In a new book, Haskell deepens that intuitive understanding, showing that flowers are not just beautiful or ornamental, but powerful—setting Earth on an entirely new course when they appeared some 200 million years ago. His book is called \u003cem data-start=\"818\" data-end=\"885\">How Flowers Made Our World: The Story of Nature’s Revolutionaries\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"890\" data-end=\"1033\">And listeners, tell us: what flower marks a significant moment or place for you? David Haskell, so glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1014\" data-end=\"1021\">Forum\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1053\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Mina. It’s such a pleasure to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1124\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to start by talking about a “flower” that many of us don’t even think of as one—grasses. Their effect on humans, animals, and habitats really illustrates what you mean when you say flowers are revolutionary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1361\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes, I love that you’re leading with grasses because, of course, most of us think of grass as just a green carpet—we don’t pay much attention. But grasses are flowering plants. They’re a relatively recent arrival in the evolution of flowering plants, and when they appeared, they revolutionized the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1671\" data-end=\"2039\">They created steppes, prairies, and savannas—entirely new habitats. They did that partly by interacting with fire and grazing mammals in complex relationships that unfolded over millions of years. And then one clever little ape—our prehuman ancestors—came down out of the trees onto these grasslands and fed themselves from grasses and from animals that ate grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2041\" data-end=\"2330\">So without grasses, we humans would not have evolved. Fast forward to today, and about 66 percent of all food calories eaten by humans come from just three species of grasses: wheat, maize, and rice. Much of the rest—pasture grasses, sugarcane, millet, oats, and barley—are also grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2477\">If we named ourselves based on what we eat, we should be called “grass apes”—both for our diet and for the plants that catalyzed our evolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2627\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2492\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How big do you think the human population would be if we hadn’t discovered how edible grasses are—how well they work for our bodies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2862\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2647\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> There wouldn’t even be a human population without grasses. Our ancestors were small-brained apes living in trees, eating fruits and insects. There’s a long evolutionary journey from that to modern \u003cem data-start=\"2845\" data-end=\"2859\">Homo sapiens\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2864\" data-end=\"3215\">Without grasses, we might number in the thousands or tens of thousands—not the eight-plus billion we have today. Many predictions of mass starvation in the 19th and 20th centuries didn’t come true largely because of the enormous productivity of grasses. People at the time didn’t realize just how transformative grasses would be in feeding humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3380\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3230\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You also say that if we really look at how grasses survive—especially seeds—we can see what you call “mothering” at work. What do you mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3555\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3400\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> One of the key innovations of flowering plants, which helped them take over the planet about 130 million years ago, is enhanced maternal care for seeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3557\" data-end=\"3890\">Part of that is the fruit that surrounds seeds. Fruits can be dry and explosive, or they can attract birds, or float in water. Inside the seed, there’s another gift from the mother plant: a tissue called the endosperm. It’s rich in starch, oils, and proteins—essentially a food reserve meant to nourish the embryo as it germinates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3892\" data-end=\"4150\">We—and many other animals—figured out how to eat that. If you open a bag of flour, you’re mostly looking at ground-up endosperm. Birds, insects, and other animals that eat seeds are, in a sense, being “mothered” by flowering plants through this innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4275\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You describe the endosperm as a kind of disturbing sibling relationship—but fascinating nonetheless, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4295\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes. When pollen fertilizes a plant, two sperm cells are involved. One fertilizes the egg to form the embryo—that’s familiar. But the other joins with two cells to form the endosperm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4483\" data-end=\"4697\">That endosperm is essentially a doomed sibling. Its role is to grow into a nutrient-rich tissue that will be consumed by the embryo. There’s something a bit unsettling about that—it’s a kind of sibling sacrifice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4699\" data-end=\"4842\">But it’s also part of the intricate choreography of plant life—cells and genes moving in precise ways to ensure the next generation succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"5068\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"4857\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David George Haskell, biologist and author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4964\">How Flowers Made Our World\u003c/em>. You may also remember him from his previous books \u003cem data-start=\"5016\" data-end=\"5040\">Sounds Wild and Broken\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"5045\" data-end=\"5065\">The Songs of Trees\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5253\">Listeners, what questions do you have about flowers—their science and how they grow? What role do flowers play in your life? Do you have a favorite flower tied to a memory or place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5255\" data-end=\"5388\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5267\" data-end=\"5281\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum. Or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5390\" data-end=\"5629\">David, you’ve described how flowering plants have shaped evolution and human life—and that about 90 percent of plant species today are flowering plants. Yet they’re not at the center of the story of how our world came to be. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5649\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> It’s a very old bias. If you look at Paleolithic cave paintings, they’re mostly focused on animals. In Europe, fewer than one percent depict plants, and virtually none show flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5835\" data-end=\"6100\">Even today, we tend to focus on animals—whether in art, media, or natural history museums. Animals are edible, dangerous, or expressive in ways that grab our attention. Plants, by contrast, don’t have faces or behaviors that trigger our instincts in the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6255\">In modern society, we’ve also boxed flowers into a narrow role: pretty, decorative, and often gendered as feminine—and therefore seen as less powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6507\">All of this minimizes their importance. But over the last 100 million years, flowering plants have built the ecosystems—rainforests, prairies, and more—that support life on Earth. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cars have become dramatically more expensive in the United States in recent years, with the average price hitting a record of $50,000 in 2025. But now the market faces both higher sticker prices and a surge in gas prices stemming from the war in Iran. In the past, U.S. consumers have relied on relatively affordable fuel to justify buying large cars such as SUVs and trucks. In fact, most U.S.-based automakers don’t even make sedans and compact cars anymore. California, however, has been pushing drivers to buy more electric cars. We’ll talk about how the current rise in car prices and fuel costs along with government policies are affecting the U.S. auto market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Buying an automobile is confusing these days. On the one hand, some countries around the world have gone headlong into electric vehicles—China, Norway, Sweden, Vietnam, a bunch of others. They’re rapidly transforming their automotive systems. Then there’s the United States, which, under the Trump administration, is doubling down on internal combustion vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"429\" data-end=\"713\">That doesn’t mean cars are affordable. Get this: the average new car sales price has spiraled up over the last seven years—from $36,000 in 2018, which was already a lot, to about $50,000 now. And as this is all happening, the price of gas is skyrocketing because of the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"854\">Here to talk with us about what’s happening, we’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, an automotive media company. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"871\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"1112\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"935\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Scott Moura, who’s a professor in civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1163\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1130\">Scott Moura:\u003c/strong> Hey, Alexis. Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1313\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1185\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Jessica Caldwell, who’s head of insights at Edmunds, an automotive information and car-buying website. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1336\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1400\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with cost. I mean, $50,000—being anywhere around that for the price of a new car—it’s just not where my brain is anchored. What happened? How did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1593\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. I think you can look at a lot of the technology being added to vehicles, particularly in the time frame you referenced. Anyone who’s in an older car and then gets into a newer one from the last two or three years will notice how large and numerous the screens are. They’re massive, and they can do a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1937\" data-end=\"2084\">You can watch videos—usually when you’re parked—take Zoom or Teams calls, install apps, listen to Spotify. There’s just a lot more functionality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’ve got to say, though—is that $14,000 worth of change? You can get a 70-inch high-definition TV for $500. Your phone is doing most of the processing. I get that that’s the nominal reason, but does it feel worth it to you? If you went back to a car from eight years ago, would you feel like you were in the Stone Age?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2677\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2444\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> No. First of all, I feel you. I’m sort of appalled every time I get into some of these vehicles—even ones that are supposed to be on the lower end. There’s definitely sticker shock, even for someone who works in the new car space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2679\" data-end=\"2934\">I think Jessica could probably speak to this better, but part of what’s going on is the skew of the product mix. Automakers want higher margins, so they’re pushing features that come in at the top end—and that’s driving the average transaction price up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"3180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"2957\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to add to that—Americans like larger vehicles. Back in the 2008 recession, Detroit automakers were criticized for not having enough small, fuel-efficient cars. So they introduced more compact and subcompact models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3182\" data-end=\"3363\">But when the economy improved, nobody wanted them. If you look at Detroit lineups today, they barely have any traditional cars left—mostly trucks and SUVs, with a few sports cars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3365\" data-end=\"3674\">When times are good, Americans want bigger vehicles with more amenities. Over the 2010s, financing was cheap, loans got longer, and interest rates were low. So vehicles just kept getting bigger and more expensive. Automakers make more money on those, so they leaned into it. In a way, we got ourselves here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3696\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jessica, I have to say—when companies say, “People just want our more expensive, higher-margin products,” that raises my eyebrows a bit. There are lots of ways automakers can influence what people buy. Did they, in some sense, steer people away from cheaper cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4224\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"3985\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> I think we like the bells and whistles. Car buying is emotional. You walk in with a budget, but then you’re at the dealership and think, “For $10, $20, $30 more a month…”—because that’s how people think—you can get something much nicer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4226\" data-end=\"4544\">You start imagining your life in that car—the big screens, the features—and suddenly you’re signing up for a bigger loan. And when interest rates are low, you can stretch that loan to 72 or even 84 months. It doesn’t feel like much more per month, but it adds up. That mindset shows up in a lot of American spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4827\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4566\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me ask about supply. During the Biden administration, there was a lot of talk about semiconductor shortages. Automakers canceled chip orders early in the pandemic, then couldn’t get them back when demand returned. That meant fewer cars available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"4970\">To what extent did that supply crunch drive up prices? Was it just that there were fewer cars, so companies realized people would pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"5150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"4987\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. The pandemic supply chain issues were a wild time. The chip shortage, in particular, forced automakers to rethink which features mattered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5152\" data-end=\"5413\">It wasn’t things like window switches—everyone uses those. It was features like self-parking systems. About a decade ago, manufacturers thought everyone would want them. But many people don’t use them—they’re slow, and Americans like things to happen quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5601\">So companies cut some of those features to reallocate chips elsewhere. Then, when demand came back, there was also a sense of “we’ve been through a tough time, let’s reward ourselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5603\" data-end=\"5834\">As Jessica said, automakers are reactive. They respond to what consumers—and dealers—are willing to buy. Dealers, in a sense, are the manufacturers’ first customers. They relay what shoppers want, and that shapes what gets built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"6057\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"5856\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how rising car prices and fuel costs are affecting the U.S. auto market. We’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, and Jessica Caldwell, head of insights at Edmunds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6059\" data-end=\"6314\">When we come back, we’ll hear more from Scott Moura, professor of civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. We’ll also talk about gas prices and how they’re shaping the car market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6316\" data-end=\"6554\">We want to hear from you. Have you bought a car recently, or are you in the market? What’s your experience—sticker shock included? How about rising gas prices—are they affecting you? Have you switched cars for other reasons in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6556\" data-end=\"6684\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6623\" data-end=\"6637\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6686\" data-end=\"6718\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cars have become dramatically more expensive in the United States in recent years, with the average price hitting a record of $50,000 in 2025. But now the market faces both higher sticker prices and a surge in gas prices stemming from the war in Iran. In the past, U.S. consumers have relied on relatively affordable fuel to justify buying large cars such as SUVs and trucks. In fact, most U.S.-based automakers don’t even make sedans and compact cars anymore. California, however, has been pushing drivers to buy more electric cars. We’ll talk about how the current rise in car prices and fuel costs along with government policies are affecting the U.S. auto market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Buying an automobile is confusing these days. On the one hand, some countries around the world have gone headlong into electric vehicles—China, Norway, Sweden, Vietnam, a bunch of others. They’re rapidly transforming their automotive systems. Then there’s the United States, which, under the Trump administration, is doubling down on internal combustion vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"429\" data-end=\"713\">That doesn’t mean cars are affordable. Get this: the average new car sales price has spiraled up over the last seven years—from $36,000 in 2018, which was already a lot, to about $50,000 now. And as this is all happening, the price of gas is skyrocketing because of the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"854\">Here to talk with us about what’s happening, we’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, an automotive media company. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"871\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"1112\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"935\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Scott Moura, who’s a professor in civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1163\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1130\">Scott Moura:\u003c/strong> Hey, Alexis. Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1313\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1185\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Jessica Caldwell, who’s head of insights at Edmunds, an automotive information and car-buying website. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1336\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1400\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with cost. I mean, $50,000—being anywhere around that for the price of a new car—it’s just not where my brain is anchored. What happened? How did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1593\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. I think you can look at a lot of the technology being added to vehicles, particularly in the time frame you referenced. Anyone who’s in an older car and then gets into a newer one from the last two or three years will notice how large and numerous the screens are. They’re massive, and they can do a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1937\" data-end=\"2084\">You can watch videos—usually when you’re parked—take Zoom or Teams calls, install apps, listen to Spotify. There’s just a lot more functionality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’ve got to say, though—is that $14,000 worth of change? You can get a 70-inch high-definition TV for $500. Your phone is doing most of the processing. I get that that’s the nominal reason, but does it feel worth it to you? If you went back to a car from eight years ago, would you feel like you were in the Stone Age?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2677\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2444\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> No. First of all, I feel you. I’m sort of appalled every time I get into some of these vehicles—even ones that are supposed to be on the lower end. There’s definitely sticker shock, even for someone who works in the new car space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2679\" data-end=\"2934\">I think Jessica could probably speak to this better, but part of what’s going on is the skew of the product mix. Automakers want higher margins, so they’re pushing features that come in at the top end—and that’s driving the average transaction price up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"3180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"2957\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to add to that—Americans like larger vehicles. Back in the 2008 recession, Detroit automakers were criticized for not having enough small, fuel-efficient cars. So they introduced more compact and subcompact models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3182\" data-end=\"3363\">But when the economy improved, nobody wanted them. If you look at Detroit lineups today, they barely have any traditional cars left—mostly trucks and SUVs, with a few sports cars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3365\" data-end=\"3674\">When times are good, Americans want bigger vehicles with more amenities. Over the 2010s, financing was cheap, loans got longer, and interest rates were low. So vehicles just kept getting bigger and more expensive. Automakers make more money on those, so they leaned into it. In a way, we got ourselves here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3696\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jessica, I have to say—when companies say, “People just want our more expensive, higher-margin products,” that raises my eyebrows a bit. There are lots of ways automakers can influence what people buy. Did they, in some sense, steer people away from cheaper cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4224\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"3985\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> I think we like the bells and whistles. Car buying is emotional. You walk in with a budget, but then you’re at the dealership and think, “For $10, $20, $30 more a month…”—because that’s how people think—you can get something much nicer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4226\" data-end=\"4544\">You start imagining your life in that car—the big screens, the features—and suddenly you’re signing up for a bigger loan. And when interest rates are low, you can stretch that loan to 72 or even 84 months. It doesn’t feel like much more per month, but it adds up. That mindset shows up in a lot of American spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4827\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4566\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me ask about supply. During the Biden administration, there was a lot of talk about semiconductor shortages. Automakers canceled chip orders early in the pandemic, then couldn’t get them back when demand returned. That meant fewer cars available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"4970\">To what extent did that supply crunch drive up prices? Was it just that there were fewer cars, so companies realized people would pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"5150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"4987\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. The pandemic supply chain issues were a wild time. The chip shortage, in particular, forced automakers to rethink which features mattered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5152\" data-end=\"5413\">It wasn’t things like window switches—everyone uses those. It was features like self-parking systems. About a decade ago, manufacturers thought everyone would want them. But many people don’t use them—they’re slow, and Americans like things to happen quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5601\">So companies cut some of those features to reallocate chips elsewhere. Then, when demand came back, there was also a sense of “we’ve been through a tough time, let’s reward ourselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5603\" data-end=\"5834\">As Jessica said, automakers are reactive. They respond to what consumers—and dealers—are willing to buy. Dealers, in a sense, are the manufacturers’ first customers. They relay what shoppers want, and that shapes what gets built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"6057\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"5856\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how rising car prices and fuel costs are affecting the U.S. auto market. We’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, and Jessica Caldwell, head of insights at Edmunds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6059\" data-end=\"6314\">When we come back, we’ll hear more from Scott Moura, professor of civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. We’ll also talk about gas prices and how they’re shaping the car market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6316\" data-end=\"6554\">We want to hear from you. Have you bought a car recently, or are you in the market? What’s your experience—sticker shock included? How about rising gas prices—are they affecting you? Have you switched cars for other reasons in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6556\" data-end=\"6684\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6623\" data-end=\"6637\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6686\" data-end=\"6718\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 25 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the war in Iran creating major economic uncertainty, some economists are forecasting that a recession could arrive this year. The economy had already been showing signs of weakness, including layoffs in Big Tech and enduring inflation concerns, and now surging oil prices are rocking U.S. markets. How bad might an economic downturn be in 2026? And are we prepared for a recession?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Economists in recent days have raised their risk assessments of a recession in the next 12 months. Moody’s Analytics puts it at nearly 50%, driven by the nation’s weak job numbers, and notes that prolonged high oil prices would significantly increase that risk. Goldman Sachs has raised its odds to 30%, up from 25%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"693\">An oil shock has preceded nearly every economic contraction in the last century, aside from the COVID pandemic, and consumers are pessimistic. NerdWallet’s March survey found 65% of respondents expect a recession in the next year. Today, we look at what’s driving recession risk, including uncertainty over the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"695\" data-end=\"906\">And listeners, do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope? How are you preparing? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, posting on our social channels, or emailing us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"889\" data-end=\"903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"908\" data-end=\"1018\">Starting us off is Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"970\" data-end=\"990\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tal, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1008\" data-end=\"1015\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1079\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1044\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1148\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> First, remind us how economists define a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1174\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. Economists generally define a recession as a period when gross domestic product—GDP, the broadest measure of economic growth—contracts. The rule of thumb is two consecutive quarters of contraction. Since a quarter is three months, that means about six months of declining economic activity, with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1705\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1525\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Moody’s model predicts nearly a 50% chance of recession within 12 months, with odds increasing due to the war in Iran. What went into that forecast, and what do you think of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"1731\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> On the one hand—I know Mark Zandi, the lead economist there, and I’ll tease him later about a nearly 50-50 forecast. Economists get teased all the time for being “on the one hand, on the other hand.” But I’ll give them some leeway here, because the risks do feel balanced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2450\">There’s a decent chance that, despite the chaos from this ongoing war, things work out okay—not that consumer sentiment improves or that there isn’t lasting damage, but that it’s not enough to tip us into recession. And yet, on the other hand, there’s an equal chance that this is the beginning of the end of the current expansion that followed the pandemic recovery—halted by market chaos and oil price surges tied to this president’s war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2465\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Zandi said that $125 to $130 a barrel could be a tipping point if prices stay there for months. How do oil prices have a cascading effect? Because I imagine oil prices alone wouldn’t cause a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2695\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right, not alone. But historically—whether we look at 1973, the late ’70s oil shocks tied to Iran, the Gulf War in the early ’90s, or the 2008 spike to $140 a barrel—oil price surges have often been the domino that exposes underlying vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3217\">Oil remains a fundamental input in the global economy, even as renewables grow. Right now, we’re in a liminal period where inflation is expected to rise—most bank economists forecast at least 4%, and some market-based expectations suggest it could hit 5% by summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3219\" data-end=\"3562\">Oil drives inflation not just at the pump, but across the economy. Airfares are one example—jet fuel costs are rising, and airline CEOs, like those at United, have flagged that as a concern. But oil also affects transportation of goods, fertilizers, plastics—everything from packaging to groceries. Those costs get passed along to consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3564\" data-end=\"3866\">Economists track both headline inflation, which includes everything, and core inflation, which strips out food and energy because they’re volatile. That’s usually helpful, though consumers understandably find it frustrating. But when an oil shock is big enough, it starts feeding into core inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4210\">When that happens, two things follow: it becomes much harder to control inflation, and it drags down growth. That’s because growth is measured in “real” terms—adjusted for inflation. If inflation rises sharply and stays high, it mechanically reduces real growth. So we don’t know exactly where we’re headed, but we’re in a precarious place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4449\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask listeners: Do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope we can avoid it? Are you changing your spending habits—putting off big purchases? How is the roller-coaster stock market affecting you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4451\" data-end=\"4584\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4463\" data-end=\"4477\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4586\" data-end=\"4845\">President Trump, as you noted, is very sensitive to oil prices and even directing the war with markets top of mind. Talk about what we’ve seen—including today, when he touted sending Iran a 15-point peace plan and markets reacted, even as Iran dismissed it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"5287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"4871\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> We’re in this odd period where both sides are offering so-called maximalist deals—terms that neither side is likely to accept, especially given domestic political pressures. The U.S. is a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless, so President Trump has to consider how outcomes play at home. Losing the war wouldn’t play well. Iran, while not a democracy, also has internal political dynamics it must manage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5289\" data-end=\"5505\">What’s remarkable is how this president is using his war powers with markets in mind. Presidents have always considered markets, but Trump has taken “jawboning”—using rhetoric to influence markets—to another level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5507\" data-end=\"5797\">For example, this past Sunday, he announced a temporary scaling back of the most intense attacks for about five days—conveniently taking us to market close on Friday. At that point, markets expect either de-escalation if a deal materializes, or renewed escalation—but after trading hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5950\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5812\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m going to have you hold that thought, Tal, as we head into a break. We’ll talk more about this right after. Stay with us—I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 25 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the war in Iran creating major economic uncertainty, some economists are forecasting that a recession could arrive this year. The economy had already been showing signs of weakness, including layoffs in Big Tech and enduring inflation concerns, and now surging oil prices are rocking U.S. markets. How bad might an economic downturn be in 2026? And are we prepared for a recession?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Economists in recent days have raised their risk assessments of a recession in the next 12 months. Moody’s Analytics puts it at nearly 50%, driven by the nation’s weak job numbers, and notes that prolonged high oil prices would significantly increase that risk. Goldman Sachs has raised its odds to 30%, up from 25%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"693\">An oil shock has preceded nearly every economic contraction in the last century, aside from the COVID pandemic, and consumers are pessimistic. NerdWallet’s March survey found 65% of respondents expect a recession in the next year. Today, we look at what’s driving recession risk, including uncertainty over the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"695\" data-end=\"906\">And listeners, do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope? How are you preparing? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, posting on our social channels, or emailing us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"889\" data-end=\"903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"908\" data-end=\"1018\">Starting us off is Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"970\" data-end=\"990\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tal, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1008\" data-end=\"1015\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1079\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1044\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1148\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> First, remind us how economists define a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1174\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. Economists generally define a recession as a period when gross domestic product—GDP, the broadest measure of economic growth—contracts. The rule of thumb is two consecutive quarters of contraction. Since a quarter is three months, that means about six months of declining economic activity, with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1705\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1525\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Moody’s model predicts nearly a 50% chance of recession within 12 months, with odds increasing due to the war in Iran. What went into that forecast, and what do you think of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"1731\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> On the one hand—I know Mark Zandi, the lead economist there, and I’ll tease him later about a nearly 50-50 forecast. Economists get teased all the time for being “on the one hand, on the other hand.” But I’ll give them some leeway here, because the risks do feel balanced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2450\">There’s a decent chance that, despite the chaos from this ongoing war, things work out okay—not that consumer sentiment improves or that there isn’t lasting damage, but that it’s not enough to tip us into recession. And yet, on the other hand, there’s an equal chance that this is the beginning of the end of the current expansion that followed the pandemic recovery—halted by market chaos and oil price surges tied to this president’s war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2465\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Zandi said that $125 to $130 a barrel could be a tipping point if prices stay there for months. How do oil prices have a cascading effect? Because I imagine oil prices alone wouldn’t cause a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2695\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right, not alone. But historically—whether we look at 1973, the late ’70s oil shocks tied to Iran, the Gulf War in the early ’90s, or the 2008 spike to $140 a barrel—oil price surges have often been the domino that exposes underlying vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3217\">Oil remains a fundamental input in the global economy, even as renewables grow. Right now, we’re in a liminal period where inflation is expected to rise—most bank economists forecast at least 4%, and some market-based expectations suggest it could hit 5% by summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3219\" data-end=\"3562\">Oil drives inflation not just at the pump, but across the economy. Airfares are one example—jet fuel costs are rising, and airline CEOs, like those at United, have flagged that as a concern. But oil also affects transportation of goods, fertilizers, plastics—everything from packaging to groceries. Those costs get passed along to consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3564\" data-end=\"3866\">Economists track both headline inflation, which includes everything, and core inflation, which strips out food and energy because they’re volatile. That’s usually helpful, though consumers understandably find it frustrating. But when an oil shock is big enough, it starts feeding into core inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4210\">When that happens, two things follow: it becomes much harder to control inflation, and it drags down growth. That’s because growth is measured in “real” terms—adjusted for inflation. If inflation rises sharply and stays high, it mechanically reduces real growth. So we don’t know exactly where we’re headed, but we’re in a precarious place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4449\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask listeners: Do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope we can avoid it? Are you changing your spending habits—putting off big purchases? How is the roller-coaster stock market affecting you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4451\" data-end=\"4584\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4463\" data-end=\"4477\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4586\" data-end=\"4845\">President Trump, as you noted, is very sensitive to oil prices and even directing the war with markets top of mind. Talk about what we’ve seen—including today, when he touted sending Iran a 15-point peace plan and markets reacted, even as Iran dismissed it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"5287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"4871\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> We’re in this odd period where both sides are offering so-called maximalist deals—terms that neither side is likely to accept, especially given domestic political pressures. The U.S. is a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless, so President Trump has to consider how outcomes play at home. Losing the war wouldn’t play well. Iran, while not a democracy, also has internal political dynamics it must manage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5289\" data-end=\"5505\">What’s remarkable is how this president is using his war powers with markets in mind. Presidents have always considered markets, but Trump has taken “jawboning”—using rhetoric to influence markets—to another level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5507\" data-end=\"5797\">For example, this past Sunday, he announced a temporary scaling back of the most intense attacks for about five days—conveniently taking us to market close on Friday. At that point, markets expect either de-escalation if a deal materializes, or renewed escalation—but after trading hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5950\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5812\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m going to have you hold that thought, Tal, as we head into a break. We’ll talk more about this right after. Stay with us—I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
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