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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With just weeks before enhanced Affordable Care Act subsidies expire for 22 million Americans, Congress faces mounting pressure to act on healthcare funding. We’ll talk about the negotiations unfolding on Capitol Hill, what we’re hearing from the White House and how the issue could shape the 2026 midterm elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"483\" data-end=\"1008\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"483\" data-end=\"501\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem data-start=\"510\" data-end=\"517\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Guy Marzorati in for Mina Kim. In less than a month, enhanced Obamacare tax credits will expire. These subsidies are used by roughly twenty-two million Americans who purchase health care on the Affordable Care Act marketplaces like Covered California. The result, according to one estimate, is that health care premiums will more than double on average. There’s lots of agreement in Washington that this is a big deal. Here’s Missouri senator Josh Hawley at a Senate hearing yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1010\" data-end=\"1220\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1010\" data-end=\"1038\">Sen. Josh Hawley (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>If we don’t do something on this issue — if Congress does not take action on this issue in the next few weeks — this will be a crisis for twenty-four million Americans and counting.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1222\" data-end=\"1644\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1222\" data-end=\"1240\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But what to do about the looming expiration of these health care tax credits? There seems to be less agreement about that. Joining us to discuss the latest, Jonathan Cohn, senior national correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1461\">The Bulwark\u003c/em>. He’s also the author of a book about the Affordable Care Act called \u003cem data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1610\">The Ten Year War: Obamacare and the Unfinished Crusade for Universal Coverage\u003c/em>. Jonathan, thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1646\" data-end=\"1689\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1646\" data-end=\"1664\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1691\" data-end=\"1878\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1691\" data-end=\"1709\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And Larry Levitt, executive vice president for health policy at KFF, a nonpartisan health policy research, polling, and news organization. Larry, thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1880\" data-end=\"1925\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1880\" data-end=\"1897\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1927\" data-end=\"2117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1927\" data-end=\"1945\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And, Larry, maybe I’ll start with you. If you could remind us how these Obamacare subsidies work and what would happen at the end of the month if these tax credits expire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2119\" data-end=\"2612\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2119\" data-end=\"2136\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> The Affordable Care Act, when it was originally passed, included subsidies to help people buy insurance. These come in the form of refundable tax credits. There was criticism of the ACA from the start — valid criticism — that even with these tax credits, coverage still wasn’t affordable for many people. So in 2021, when Democrats took charge of Congress and the White House, they enhanced the tax credits — increased the credits people get and extended them to more people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2614\" data-end=\"3029\">The way these tax credits work is: people are expected to pay a certain percentage of their income toward health insurance, and the tax credit covers the rest. With the enhanced credits, that ranges from nothing for very low-income people to eight and a half percent of income for middle-income people with incomes above four times the poverty level, which is about sixty-three thousand dollars for a single person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3031\" data-end=\"3236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3031\" data-end=\"3049\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And so the subsidies are potentially going away. At the same time, I’m seeing that the underlying prices of these premiums for marketplace plans are going up. Why is that also happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3255\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> That’s right. The average increase for Affordable Care Act plans — what insurers are charging — is going up by twenty-six percent on average, which is a lot. Some of that is simply because health care costs are going up. Hospital prices are rising. Drug prices are rising. More people are using drugs like GLP-1s for weight loss. All of that pushes health care costs up, which pushes premiums up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3654\" data-end=\"3974\">But there’s something unique going on in the Affordable Care Act marketplace: insurers are expecting these enhanced tax credits to expire after this year and that Congress won’t extend them. They expect healthier people will drop out of the market, leaving sicker people with insurance, which means costs will be higher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3976\" data-end=\"4172\">But it’s important to differentiate between what insurers are charging and what people pay. As you said, what people will have to pay will more than double on average if these tax credits go away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4174\" data-end=\"4332\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4174\" data-end=\"4192\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right — based on whether these subsidies expire or not. And, Jonathan, what’s the latest on Capitol Hill as we barrel toward this deadline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4334\" data-end=\"4769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4334\" data-end=\"4352\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Well, the latest on Capitol Hill could change from the beginning of my answer to the end of my answer. This is in total flux. Democrats know they want to extend the subsidies. They’d like to extend them indefinitely. They’ve made clear they’ll settle for a year or two or three. I think the offer they’re making now is three years, but it’s pretty clear they’d be okay with a shorter extension just to buy some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4771\" data-end=\"5214\">Republicans are all over the place. You played Josh Hawley before — there are a number of Republicans who feel strongly that they don’t like government-run health care plans and they certainly don’t like Obamacare. But these are their constituents. In fact, they’re disproportionately in red districts and red states. So they’re also interested in extending these subsidies, probably with some modifications because they have various concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5216\" data-end=\"5864\">But you also have the other end of the spectrum — Republicans who will never vote for this. Not a chance in the world. This goes against their beliefs about what government should be doing. And again, this is Obamacare, which many have spent their political careers trying to repeal. The only thing they’ll talk about is that any extension of this money would have to involve major changes to the law that adhere to conservative principles — which generally means fewer rules protecting people with preexisting conditions. That does make insurance cheaper, but also makes it harder to get and less useful for people with serious medical conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5866\" data-end=\"6447\">They’re late to debating this. The debate has only really started in the last few weeks, even though everyone knew this was coming. Republicans haven’t figured out what they want yet. And a lot of them will look to President Trump for guidance, but he’s been all over the place — on social media, in gaggles on Air Force One. One minute he says, “I hate Obamacare, it stinks, we have to blow it up, I’d never do anything to help it.” The next minute he’s like, “Well, maybe we need to do something about these subsidies because people are gonna be hurting — but only with changes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6449\" data-end=\"6667\">So it’s hard to imagine real negotiations until Republicans figure out what they want as a party, or unless enough Republicans are willing to break with their party and work with Democrats. Then something could happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6669\" data-end=\"6788\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6669\" data-end=\"6687\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And on the Democratic side, this was the focal point of the fall’s government shutdown, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"7144\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6808\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It was. This was their key demand — the thing they put front and center. Democrats aren’t united on a lot of things, but on this they are. Health care is an issue for Democrats — it’s in their bones, it’s in their DNA. It’s been a cause for the party since Harry Truman. This was their demand. That’s why they shut down the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7539\">In the end, they didn’t get their demand. They did get a vote, which we’re supposed to get next week in the Senate, at least. The House has not promised a vote. The Senate majority leader did promise a floor vote on a Democratic proposal. At this moment, the assumption is Democrats will put forward a two- or three-year extension — and it will get voted down. It won’t have the votes to pass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7541\" data-end=\"7726\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7541\" data-end=\"7559\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And what have we heard — you mentioned President Trump kind of moving around on this — what have we heard from Republican leadership in both the Senate and the House?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7728\" data-end=\"8010\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7728\" data-end=\"7746\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It’s been a little different. In the Senate, Senator Thune has been more — reading between the lines — open to the idea that there’s a conversation to be had about putting together a bill that could pass. But he’s got a divided caucus, so that’s one conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8012\" data-end=\"8188\">Speaker Johnson has been very vocally against even having a vote on this — any kind of extension. That probably reflects conservatives in his caucus who feel strongly about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8190\" data-end=\"8778\">There was a moment — again, the president has been all over the place — when there were reports the White House was going to propose a compromise. The terms leaked, and it was a real, concrete proposal. You could see the outlines of a negotiation that might lead to a deal. And one of the most remarkable things that happened was huge blowback from House conservatives. Speaker Johnson reportedly called President Trump saying, “No, no, no — we don’t want to do this.” So at this point, whether for his own beliefs or those of his caucus, he is a big obstacle to getting something moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8780\" data-end=\"8935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8780\" data-end=\"8798\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And, Larry, I know KFF has a new survey out today on the political fallout if these tax credits are not extended. What did you all find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8937\" data-end=\"9197\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8937\" data-end=\"8954\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> This was a survey of ACA marketplace enrollees — the twenty-four million people who get coverage through the Affordable Care Act. It looked at both the political fallout and the real-life fallout if these enhanced tax credits aren’t extended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9693\">For example, about a third of ACA enrollees said they would be very likely to shop for a cheaper plan. That cheaper plan would likely be what’s known as a bronze plan — cheaper premiums but deductibles of more than seven thousand dollars per person. And about a quarter said they would be very likely to go without insurance entirely. That’s consistent with Congressional Budget Office estimates. They estimate almost four million people would end up uninsured without the enhanced tax credits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9695\" data-end=\"10046\">We also looked at whether people want the tax credits extended. Not surprisingly, ACA enrollees want them extended — and who they would blame if they aren’t. Democrats would blame Republicans; Republicans would blame Democrats. But even many Republicans said they would blame President Trump and Republicans in Congress if the credits aren’t extended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10048\" data-end=\"10252\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10048\" data-end=\"10066\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So that’s how the blame pie would get divided. And, Jonathan, you mentioned that underlying all of this, health care is one of the few really good issues for Democrats generally, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10254\" data-end=\"10611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10254\" data-end=\"10272\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It is. Health care is to Democrats what crime and immigration are to Republicans. And that’s important in the politics of this. These debates get complicated — dollar figures, percentages, competing proposals. People tune out and fall back on their preconceptions. Even when Democrats are unpopular, people trust Democrats on health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10613\" data-end=\"10856\">And on top of that, this shutdown and this whole debate have been one giant advertisement: Democrats want to extend this; Republicans do not. In that environment, if people see their premiums go up, their instinct will be to blame Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10858\" data-end=\"11219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10858\" data-end=\"10876\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah — especially because this is going to hit right away. These expired tax credits take effect immediately. That was Jonathan Cohn, senior national correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"11046\" data-end=\"11059\">The Bulwark\u003c/em>. He’s also the author of \u003cem data-start=\"11085\" data-end=\"11164\">The Ten Year War, Obamacare and the Unfinished Crusade for Universal Coverage\u003c/em>. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11221\" data-end=\"11250\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11221\" data-end=\"11239\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11252\" data-end=\"11680\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11252\" data-end=\"11270\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And as our conversation continues, we want to hear from you. Do you receive health insurance through an ACA marketplace like Covered California? How are you planning for the future? What would make health insurance more affordable for you? What are your concerns? What are your hopes about the current negotiations in Congress? And how important is health care to your vote next year in the midterm elections?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11682\" data-end=\"11838\">You can email your comments and questions to \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"11727\" data-end=\"11741\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can find us on social channels at kqedforum, or give us a call: 866-733-6786. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, December 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With just weeks before enhanced Affordable Care Act subsidies expire for 22 million Americans, Congress faces mounting pressure to act on healthcare funding. We’ll talk about the negotiations unfolding on Capitol Hill, what we’re hearing from the White House and how the issue could shape the 2026 midterm elections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"483\" data-end=\"1008\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"483\" data-end=\"501\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem data-start=\"510\" data-end=\"517\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Guy Marzorati in for Mina Kim. In less than a month, enhanced Obamacare tax credits will expire. These subsidies are used by roughly twenty-two million Americans who purchase health care on the Affordable Care Act marketplaces like Covered California. The result, according to one estimate, is that health care premiums will more than double on average. There’s lots of agreement in Washington that this is a big deal. Here’s Missouri senator Josh Hawley at a Senate hearing yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1010\" data-end=\"1220\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1010\" data-end=\"1038\">Sen. Josh Hawley (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>If we don’t do something on this issue — if Congress does not take action on this issue in the next few weeks — this will be a crisis for twenty-four million Americans and counting.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1222\" data-end=\"1644\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1222\" data-end=\"1240\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> But what to do about the looming expiration of these health care tax credits? There seems to be less agreement about that. Joining us to discuss the latest, Jonathan Cohn, senior national correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1461\">The Bulwark\u003c/em>. He’s also the author of a book about the Affordable Care Act called \u003cem data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1610\">The Ten Year War: Obamacare and the Unfinished Crusade for Universal Coverage\u003c/em>. Jonathan, thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1646\" data-end=\"1689\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1646\" data-end=\"1664\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1691\" data-end=\"1878\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1691\" data-end=\"1709\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And Larry Levitt, executive vice president for health policy at KFF, a nonpartisan health policy research, polling, and news organization. Larry, thanks for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1880\" data-end=\"1925\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1880\" data-end=\"1897\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1927\" data-end=\"2117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1927\" data-end=\"1945\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And, Larry, maybe I’ll start with you. If you could remind us how these Obamacare subsidies work and what would happen at the end of the month if these tax credits expire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2119\" data-end=\"2612\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2119\" data-end=\"2136\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> The Affordable Care Act, when it was originally passed, included subsidies to help people buy insurance. These come in the form of refundable tax credits. There was criticism of the ACA from the start — valid criticism — that even with these tax credits, coverage still wasn’t affordable for many people. So in 2021, when Democrats took charge of Congress and the White House, they enhanced the tax credits — increased the credits people get and extended them to more people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2614\" data-end=\"3029\">The way these tax credits work is: people are expected to pay a certain percentage of their income toward health insurance, and the tax credit covers the rest. With the enhanced credits, that ranges from nothing for very low-income people to eight and a half percent of income for middle-income people with incomes above four times the poverty level, which is about sixty-three thousand dollars for a single person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3031\" data-end=\"3236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3031\" data-end=\"3049\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And so the subsidies are potentially going away. At the same time, I’m seeing that the underlying prices of these premiums for marketplace plans are going up. Why is that also happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3255\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> That’s right. The average increase for Affordable Care Act plans — what insurers are charging — is going up by twenty-six percent on average, which is a lot. Some of that is simply because health care costs are going up. Hospital prices are rising. Drug prices are rising. More people are using drugs like GLP-1s for weight loss. All of that pushes health care costs up, which pushes premiums up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3654\" data-end=\"3974\">But there’s something unique going on in the Affordable Care Act marketplace: insurers are expecting these enhanced tax credits to expire after this year and that Congress won’t extend them. They expect healthier people will drop out of the market, leaving sicker people with insurance, which means costs will be higher.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3976\" data-end=\"4172\">But it’s important to differentiate between what insurers are charging and what people pay. As you said, what people will have to pay will more than double on average if these tax credits go away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4174\" data-end=\"4332\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4174\" data-end=\"4192\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right — based on whether these subsidies expire or not. And, Jonathan, what’s the latest on Capitol Hill as we barrel toward this deadline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4334\" data-end=\"4769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4334\" data-end=\"4352\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Well, the latest on Capitol Hill could change from the beginning of my answer to the end of my answer. This is in total flux. Democrats know they want to extend the subsidies. They’d like to extend them indefinitely. They’ve made clear they’ll settle for a year or two or three. I think the offer they’re making now is three years, but it’s pretty clear they’d be okay with a shorter extension just to buy some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4771\" data-end=\"5214\">Republicans are all over the place. You played Josh Hawley before — there are a number of Republicans who feel strongly that they don’t like government-run health care plans and they certainly don’t like Obamacare. But these are their constituents. In fact, they’re disproportionately in red districts and red states. So they’re also interested in extending these subsidies, probably with some modifications because they have various concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5216\" data-end=\"5864\">But you also have the other end of the spectrum — Republicans who will never vote for this. Not a chance in the world. This goes against their beliefs about what government should be doing. And again, this is Obamacare, which many have spent their political careers trying to repeal. The only thing they’ll talk about is that any extension of this money would have to involve major changes to the law that adhere to conservative principles — which generally means fewer rules protecting people with preexisting conditions. That does make insurance cheaper, but also makes it harder to get and less useful for people with serious medical conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5866\" data-end=\"6447\">They’re late to debating this. The debate has only really started in the last few weeks, even though everyone knew this was coming. Republicans haven’t figured out what they want yet. And a lot of them will look to President Trump for guidance, but he’s been all over the place — on social media, in gaggles on Air Force One. One minute he says, “I hate Obamacare, it stinks, we have to blow it up, I’d never do anything to help it.” The next minute he’s like, “Well, maybe we need to do something about these subsidies because people are gonna be hurting — but only with changes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6449\" data-end=\"6667\">So it’s hard to imagine real negotiations until Republicans figure out what they want as a party, or unless enough Republicans are willing to break with their party and work with Democrats. Then something could happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6669\" data-end=\"6788\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6669\" data-end=\"6687\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And on the Democratic side, this was the focal point of the fall’s government shutdown, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"7144\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6808\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It was. This was their key demand — the thing they put front and center. Democrats aren’t united on a lot of things, but on this they are. Health care is an issue for Democrats — it’s in their bones, it’s in their DNA. It’s been a cause for the party since Harry Truman. This was their demand. That’s why they shut down the government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7146\" data-end=\"7539\">In the end, they didn’t get their demand. They did get a vote, which we’re supposed to get next week in the Senate, at least. The House has not promised a vote. The Senate majority leader did promise a floor vote on a Democratic proposal. At this moment, the assumption is Democrats will put forward a two- or three-year extension — and it will get voted down. It won’t have the votes to pass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7541\" data-end=\"7726\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7541\" data-end=\"7559\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And what have we heard — you mentioned President Trump kind of moving around on this — what have we heard from Republican leadership in both the Senate and the House?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7728\" data-end=\"8010\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7728\" data-end=\"7746\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It’s been a little different. In the Senate, Senator Thune has been more — reading between the lines — open to the idea that there’s a conversation to be had about putting together a bill that could pass. But he’s got a divided caucus, so that’s one conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8012\" data-end=\"8188\">Speaker Johnson has been very vocally against even having a vote on this — any kind of extension. That probably reflects conservatives in his caucus who feel strongly about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8190\" data-end=\"8778\">There was a moment — again, the president has been all over the place — when there were reports the White House was going to propose a compromise. The terms leaked, and it was a real, concrete proposal. You could see the outlines of a negotiation that might lead to a deal. And one of the most remarkable things that happened was huge blowback from House conservatives. Speaker Johnson reportedly called President Trump saying, “No, no, no — we don’t want to do this.” So at this point, whether for his own beliefs or those of his caucus, he is a big obstacle to getting something moving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8780\" data-end=\"8935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8780\" data-end=\"8798\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And, Larry, I know KFF has a new survey out today on the political fallout if these tax credits are not extended. What did you all find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8937\" data-end=\"9197\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8937\" data-end=\"8954\">Larry Levitt:\u003c/strong> This was a survey of ACA marketplace enrollees — the twenty-four million people who get coverage through the Affordable Care Act. It looked at both the political fallout and the real-life fallout if these enhanced tax credits aren’t extended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9693\">For example, about a third of ACA enrollees said they would be very likely to shop for a cheaper plan. That cheaper plan would likely be what’s known as a bronze plan — cheaper premiums but deductibles of more than seven thousand dollars per person. And about a quarter said they would be very likely to go without insurance entirely. That’s consistent with Congressional Budget Office estimates. They estimate almost four million people would end up uninsured without the enhanced tax credits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9695\" data-end=\"10046\">We also looked at whether people want the tax credits extended. Not surprisingly, ACA enrollees want them extended — and who they would blame if they aren’t. Democrats would blame Republicans; Republicans would blame Democrats. But even many Republicans said they would blame President Trump and Republicans in Congress if the credits aren’t extended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10048\" data-end=\"10252\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10048\" data-end=\"10066\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> So that’s how the blame pie would get divided. And, Jonathan, you mentioned that underlying all of this, health care is one of the few really good issues for Democrats generally, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10254\" data-end=\"10611\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10254\" data-end=\"10272\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> It is. Health care is to Democrats what crime and immigration are to Republicans. And that’s important in the politics of this. These debates get complicated — dollar figures, percentages, competing proposals. People tune out and fall back on their preconceptions. Even when Democrats are unpopular, people trust Democrats on health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10613\" data-end=\"10856\">And on top of that, this shutdown and this whole debate have been one giant advertisement: Democrats want to extend this; Republicans do not. In that environment, if people see their premiums go up, their instinct will be to blame Republicans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10858\" data-end=\"11219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10858\" data-end=\"10876\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Yeah — especially because this is going to hit right away. These expired tax credits take effect immediately. That was Jonathan Cohn, senior national correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"11046\" data-end=\"11059\">The Bulwark\u003c/em>. He’s also the author of \u003cem data-start=\"11085\" data-end=\"11164\">The Ten Year War, Obamacare and the Unfinished Crusade for Universal Coverage\u003c/em>. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11221\" data-end=\"11250\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11221\" data-end=\"11239\">Jonathan Cohn:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11252\" data-end=\"11680\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11252\" data-end=\"11270\">Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> And as our conversation continues, we want to hear from you. Do you receive health insurance through an ACA marketplace like Covered California? How are you planning for the future? What would make health insurance more affordable for you? What are your concerns? What are your hopes about the current negotiations in Congress? 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"radiolab": {
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"title": "Selected Shorts",
"info": "Spellbinding short stories by established and emerging writers take on a new life when they are performed by stars of the stage and screen.",
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"title": "Snap Judgment",
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"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
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