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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers are demanding that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth release video of the September strike that killed two survivors of a U.S. attack on their boat in the Caribbean. That strike, which the Pentagon says targeted drug traffickers, has prompted war crime accusations. But since then, the U.S. has launched more than 20 strikes in the region, killing more than 80 people. We talk about the impact and legality of the attacks along with other controversies at the Pentagon \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— \u003c/span> and the political implications for Hegseth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"810\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"423\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"435\" data-end=\"442\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A classified briefing yesterday from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to congressional leaders and top members of the House and Senate intelligence committees was very unsatisfying, according to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who — along with other lawmakers — is demanding to see full video of a U.S. military strike on a boat in the Caribbean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"1124\">The attack included a follow-up strike that killed two survivors of the initial blast and has become the subject of intense scrutiny among lawmakers and military and legal experts. Julian E. Barnes covers U.S. intelligence agencies and international security for \u003cem data-start=\"1075\" data-end=\"1095\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Julian, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1116\" data-end=\"1123\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1147\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1184\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Can you start by reviewing what happened on September 2 when the U.S. military launched two attacks on a speedboat in the Caribbean Sea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1672\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1362\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Sure. What we know is that the U.S. military was tracking this boat in the Caribbean — coming from Venezuela and reportedly headed either to Trinidad and Tobago or Suriname. The U.S. military said they had intelligence that the boat was carrying cocaine and was in communication with other narcotraffickers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1674\" data-end=\"1896\">So on September 2, the first of what has become a campaign of military strikes on alleged narcotraffickers took place. The first missile was launched at the boat. It was carrying eleven people, and it killed all but two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1898\" data-end=\"2262\">We now know those two survivors ended up in the water. The boat was ripped in half by the first strike, and they were clinging to the wreckage and climbing onto the hull. And we now know that Commander Mitch Bradley — at that time the head of Joint Special Operations Command — ordered a second strike to sink the boat, kill the survivors, and destroy the drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2264\" data-end=\"2616\">This second strike has become the focus of congressional oversight over the last week and a half. There have been a number of classified briefings — none shown to the public — but a range of lawmakers have questioned Admiral Bradley, General Dan Cain, and yesterday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, and the head of the CIA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2879\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2631\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The survivors’ behavior is being interpreted in different ways. Can you explain those interpretations? First, what are Democrats and most of the military and legal experts you spoke to saying is the most logical reason for the survivors’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"3094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"2902\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> The video — which has not been shown publicly but which lawmakers and congressional aides have seen — shows the survivors climbing onto the wreckage of the boat and waving, making gestures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3096\" data-end=\"3425\">Most people who have seen it say the most logical explanation is that they are seeking rescue. They had seen the American aircraft that launched the attack. This was the first strike, so they did not know there was a military campaign against drug boats. They might not have known they had just been hit by an American missile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3427\" data-end=\"3578\">So a lot of people believe they were waving for rescue, seeing the AC-130 or another aircraft overhead. Others interpreted it as a wave of surrender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3580\" data-end=\"3913\">But initially, the military leaders briefed Congress that this was a form of communication — that the survivors might have been signaling to another drug boat or drug plane. We now know there was no such drug boat in visual range. So that explanation — offered as a rationale for the strike — does not hold up under logical scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"4168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"3928\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would it be important for military commanders and the administration to say the shipwrecked men were communicating with other drug boats? Is it because, if they were shipwrecked and seeking rescue, killing them would have been a crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4191\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> If this is indeed an armed conflict — which the U.S. military asserts, even though Congress has not authorized it — international law and the military’s own Law of War Manual are very clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4386\" data-end=\"4634\">The Second Geneva Convention says you cannot target shipwrecked individuals — people who are out of the fight. It is a war crime to kill someone who is not in a position to take part in the fight and who is struggling for life on a capsized boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4636\" data-end=\"4827\">On the other hand, if someone is still in the fight — still has weapons, still poses a threat — they remain a legitimate target under the laws of armed conflict and the military’s own code.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"5131\">So what a reasonable person would have thought about the intent of these survivors is extremely important. And when you describe the situation, the average person understands that someone fighting for their life in the water is not still involved in the fight — they’re not a classic combatant anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5146\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask our listeners: What do you think? What are your reactions to what you’re hearing about the latest revelations regarding U.S. military strikes in the Caribbean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5465\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5335\" data-end=\"5349\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5613\">Julian, can you remind us what a massive departure this type of military action is from how the U.S. has normally handled drug smugglers on boats?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5884\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5636\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> That’s a really important point. We have not treated this as a traditional military operation. We have not treated drug traffickers the same way we treat terrorists or members of an enemy army. This has historically been a law enforcement issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5886\" data-end=\"6228\">Until the Trump administration began this campaign in September, the U.S. government put Coast Guard personnel on Navy ships. When a Navy ship stopped a boat suspected of drug smuggling, it was a law enforcement action. The Coast Guard took the lead — gathering evidence, and the people could be brought to Florida for possible prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6230\" data-end=\"6557\">You would have to prove in a court of law that they were trafficking drugs — violating American law. But in this case, treating it as a military operation means the evidence is destroyed when bombs are dropped. The people have — with one exception — been killed. The drugs, if present, have ended up at the bottom of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6559\" data-end=\"6814\">And the military has not released detailed information about how they know these boats were carrying drugs. We have some anonymous information about the basics, but no detailed account the public can interrogate. It’s quite a departure from past practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"7039\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"6829\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to play a cut of Secretary Hegseth speaking at a defense forum in Simi Valley this past Saturday, where he appears to be giving the DOD’s justification for attacking drug smugglers in this military way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7065\">Pete Hegseth (clip):\u003c/strong> The days in which these narcoterrorists — designated terror organizations — operate freely in our hemisphere are over. These narcoterrorists are the Al Qaeda of our hemisphere, and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision that we hunted Al Qaeda. We are tracking them. We are killing them. And we will keep killing them so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they’re tantamount to chemical weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7533\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he’s essentially saying drug smugglers are narcoterrorists comparable to Al Qaeda, which actually attacked the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7954\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7675\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was in California and listened to his speech and talked to people about it. It is quite a departure. He’s saying drug smugglers are the same as Al Qaeda. When he talks about chemical weapons, he’s suggesting the drugs themselves are weapons designed to kill Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7956\" data-end=\"8131\">Drugs do kill Americans — but the drugs they’re targeting in the Caribbean are mostly cocaine. There are cocaine overdoses, though far fewer than fentanyl deaths in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8133\" data-end=\"8410\">So it is quite a departure to consider cocaine a weapon. In a counterterrorism context, if someone is planting an IED, or a survivor of a drone strike moves toward an explosive, that’s a hostile act. But saying that carrying drugs is a hostile act is a very different scenario.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8425\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing you said at the top — and we’re coming up on a break — is that the boat wasn’t bound for the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8714\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8562\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Drug trafficking from Venezuela largely heads to Europe. Ninety percent of it goes to Europe. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers are demanding that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth release video of the September strike that killed two survivors of a U.S. attack on their boat in the Caribbean. That strike, which the Pentagon says targeted drug traffickers, has prompted war crime accusations. But since then, the U.S. has launched more than 20 strikes in the region, killing more than 80 people. We talk about the impact and legality of the attacks along with other controversies at the Pentagon \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— \u003c/span> and the political implications for Hegseth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"810\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"423\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"435\" data-end=\"442\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A classified briefing yesterday from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to congressional leaders and top members of the House and Senate intelligence committees was very unsatisfying, according to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who — along with other lawmakers — is demanding to see full video of a U.S. military strike on a boat in the Caribbean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"1124\">The attack included a follow-up strike that killed two survivors of the initial blast and has become the subject of intense scrutiny among lawmakers and military and legal experts. Julian E. Barnes covers U.S. intelligence agencies and international security for \u003cem data-start=\"1075\" data-end=\"1095\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Julian, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1116\" data-end=\"1123\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1147\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1184\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Can you start by reviewing what happened on September 2 when the U.S. military launched two attacks on a speedboat in the Caribbean Sea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1672\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1362\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Sure. What we know is that the U.S. military was tracking this boat in the Caribbean — coming from Venezuela and reportedly headed either to Trinidad and Tobago or Suriname. The U.S. military said they had intelligence that the boat was carrying cocaine and was in communication with other narcotraffickers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1674\" data-end=\"1896\">So on September 2, the first of what has become a campaign of military strikes on alleged narcotraffickers took place. The first missile was launched at the boat. It was carrying eleven people, and it killed all but two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1898\" data-end=\"2262\">We now know those two survivors ended up in the water. The boat was ripped in half by the first strike, and they were clinging to the wreckage and climbing onto the hull. And we now know that Commander Mitch Bradley — at that time the head of Joint Special Operations Command — ordered a second strike to sink the boat, kill the survivors, and destroy the drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2264\" data-end=\"2616\">This second strike has become the focus of congressional oversight over the last week and a half. There have been a number of classified briefings — none shown to the public — but a range of lawmakers have questioned Admiral Bradley, General Dan Cain, and yesterday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, and the head of the CIA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2879\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2631\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The survivors’ behavior is being interpreted in different ways. Can you explain those interpretations? First, what are Democrats and most of the military and legal experts you spoke to saying is the most logical reason for the survivors’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"3094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"2902\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> The video — which has not been shown publicly but which lawmakers and congressional aides have seen — shows the survivors climbing onto the wreckage of the boat and waving, making gestures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3096\" data-end=\"3425\">Most people who have seen it say the most logical explanation is that they are seeking rescue. They had seen the American aircraft that launched the attack. This was the first strike, so they did not know there was a military campaign against drug boats. They might not have known they had just been hit by an American missile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3427\" data-end=\"3578\">So a lot of people believe they were waving for rescue, seeing the AC-130 or another aircraft overhead. Others interpreted it as a wave of surrender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3580\" data-end=\"3913\">But initially, the military leaders briefed Congress that this was a form of communication — that the survivors might have been signaling to another drug boat or drug plane. We now know there was no such drug boat in visual range. So that explanation — offered as a rationale for the strike — does not hold up under logical scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"4168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"3928\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would it be important for military commanders and the administration to say the shipwrecked men were communicating with other drug boats? Is it because, if they were shipwrecked and seeking rescue, killing them would have been a crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4191\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> If this is indeed an armed conflict — which the U.S. military asserts, even though Congress has not authorized it — international law and the military’s own Law of War Manual are very clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4386\" data-end=\"4634\">The Second Geneva Convention says you cannot target shipwrecked individuals — people who are out of the fight. It is a war crime to kill someone who is not in a position to take part in the fight and who is struggling for life on a capsized boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4636\" data-end=\"4827\">On the other hand, if someone is still in the fight — still has weapons, still poses a threat — they remain a legitimate target under the laws of armed conflict and the military’s own code.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"5131\">So what a reasonable person would have thought about the intent of these survivors is extremely important. And when you describe the situation, the average person understands that someone fighting for their life in the water is not still involved in the fight — they’re not a classic combatant anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5146\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask our listeners: What do you think? What are your reactions to what you’re hearing about the latest revelations regarding U.S. military strikes in the Caribbean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5465\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5335\" data-end=\"5349\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5613\">Julian, can you remind us what a massive departure this type of military action is from how the U.S. has normally handled drug smugglers on boats?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5884\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5636\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> That’s a really important point. We have not treated this as a traditional military operation. We have not treated drug traffickers the same way we treat terrorists or members of an enemy army. This has historically been a law enforcement issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5886\" data-end=\"6228\">Until the Trump administration began this campaign in September, the U.S. government put Coast Guard personnel on Navy ships. When a Navy ship stopped a boat suspected of drug smuggling, it was a law enforcement action. The Coast Guard took the lead — gathering evidence, and the people could be brought to Florida for possible prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6230\" data-end=\"6557\">You would have to prove in a court of law that they were trafficking drugs — violating American law. But in this case, treating it as a military operation means the evidence is destroyed when bombs are dropped. The people have — with one exception — been killed. The drugs, if present, have ended up at the bottom of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6559\" data-end=\"6814\">And the military has not released detailed information about how they know these boats were carrying drugs. We have some anonymous information about the basics, but no detailed account the public can interrogate. It’s quite a departure from past practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"7039\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"6829\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to play a cut of Secretary Hegseth speaking at a defense forum in Simi Valley this past Saturday, where he appears to be giving the DOD’s justification for attacking drug smugglers in this military way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7065\">Pete Hegseth (clip):\u003c/strong> The days in which these narcoterrorists — designated terror organizations — operate freely in our hemisphere are over. These narcoterrorists are the Al Qaeda of our hemisphere, and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision that we hunted Al Qaeda. We are tracking them. We are killing them. And we will keep killing them so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they’re tantamount to chemical weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7533\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he’s essentially saying drug smugglers are narcoterrorists comparable to Al Qaeda, which actually attacked the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7954\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7675\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was in California and listened to his speech and talked to people about it. It is quite a departure. He’s saying drug smugglers are the same as Al Qaeda. When he talks about chemical weapons, he’s suggesting the drugs themselves are weapons designed to kill Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7956\" data-end=\"8131\">Drugs do kill Americans — but the drugs they’re targeting in the Caribbean are mostly cocaine. There are cocaine overdoses, though far fewer than fentanyl deaths in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8133\" data-end=\"8410\">So it is quite a departure to consider cocaine a weapon. In a counterterrorism context, if someone is planting an IED, or a survivor of a drone strike moves toward an explosive, that’s a hostile act. But saying that carrying drugs is a hostile act is a very different scenario.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8425\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing you said at the top — and we’re coming up on a break — is that the boat wasn’t bound for the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8714\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8562\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Drug trafficking from Venezuela largely heads to Europe. Ninety percent of it goes to Europe. These drugs were bound for Europe, not the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8716\" data-end=\"8976\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8716\" data-end=\"8729\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Julian Barnes, intelligence and national security reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"8812\" data-end=\"8832\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, about U.S. military strikes on boats in the Caribbean and the most recent one that’s getting a lot of scrutiny. More with him after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The National Institutes of Health have historically funded scientists to find cures for diseases and protect public health. NIH funding has led to the discovery of immune therapies for cancer, antiviral treatments and prevention of HIV, and ground-breaking research into memory loss and Alzheimer’s disease. After a year of funding cuts and freezes that have rocked the medical research field to its core, we catch up with leading researchers at the University of California to talk about the impact this has had on their work and our ability to fight humanity’s most puzzling illnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"429\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"441\" data-end=\"448\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Earlier this year, journalists were all over the story about funding cuts and freezes in our nation’s medical research infrastructure. The word that actually went into a lot of headlines was “devastating.” But there’s a lot going on — so much news, so many changes to everything — and the narrative about what has happened to research funding has largely fallen off the front pages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1061\">Today, we’re going to talk with a journalist who’s still reporting on what’s happening. Then we’re going to bring in a trio of University of California researchers who’ve been affected by all the chaos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1302\">We’re joined first by Megan Molteni, who’s a science writer at STAT News. Her latest article is titled, \u003cem data-start=\"1167\" data-end=\"1286\">“Trump Has ‘Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities.’ What Now?”\u003c/em> Welcome, Megan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1338\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1322\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1360\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So just catch people up. People probably saw these headlines — devastating funding cuts at NIH. This was back in February. But maybe they haven’t followed, you know, step by step what’s happened. Just walk us through quickly what happened this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1883\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1630\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There’s a lot to go through, so we may not cover it all. But the impacts sort of fall into a couple of buckets. There were terminations to a large number of grants starting in February. We’re talking about billions of dollars of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"2156\">Those terminations fell into a few different areas that were not in alignment with the administration’s political agenda. So we were looking at grants related to HIV/AIDS research, gender and sex and transgender health research, vaccine research, and a few other areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2585\">A number of those grants were restored through the courts — federal judges ruled those cuts unlawful, and the NIH had to restore them. But there’s a bigger picture those terminations don’t really capture, and that’s the way a variety of actions the administration has taken against the NIH have really broken this trust that has underlain the last eighty years of scientific innovation and research at America’s universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2587\" data-end=\"3014\">These actions include large-scale layoffs at NIH that have impacted the ability of the institutes to hold peer-review sessions to award new grants. There’s been a real slowdown there. That slowdown includes policies implemented over the summer from the Office of Management and Budget at the White House — this is Russell Vought’s office — that directed NIH to move to what’s called an “up-front” or multi-year funding model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3016\" data-end=\"3184\">The way this was rolled out — very quickly and abruptly — meant that NIH was able to award fewer new grants in 2025, in addition to some of the cuts we’ve already seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3206\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What did the administration say its rationale was for all these changes at NIH, given that the United States has been a leader in medical research all around the world for decades?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3661\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3407\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Well, I think in some ways what we’re actually seeing is less a cohesive policy agenda about how we do science in America and more the weaponization of NIH funds in the culture war the administration is waging against institutions of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3663\" data-end=\"3866\">NIH is the largest funder of biomedical research in the world. They have a $48 billion budget; $38 billion of that goes outside its walls — often to America’s universities and medical research centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4265\">It’s really been used by the administration as a way to exert leverage over elite institutions that it sees as having run afoul — either due to so-called “woke leftist ideology” or accusations of mishandling antisemitism on campus. So many policy experts we’ve spoken to this year see what’s happened at NIH — and its relationship with academic partners — as collateral damage in that culture war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4287\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I remember — we’re going to bring in a professor in just a second who studies the thymus at UC Merced. It’s like, why was \u003cem data-start=\"4416\" data-end=\"4420\">he\u003c/em> collateral damage in this? Before we get there, though: the NIH — this actually surprised me, and listeners may not know this — did manage to allocate its full budget by the end of the year. Despite the cuts and chaos, they got all of the grant money supposedly out the door by the end of September. That sounds like good news. There’s got to be a catch, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"5065\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"4803\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Right. So that goes back to how they were able to get the money out despite losing a lot of grant management specialists — staff who push the money out the door — while also dealing with a backlog of applications due to slowdowns and pauses early in the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5067\" data-end=\"5356\">They shifted to this multi-year funding model. Historically, NIH funded awards annually. A researcher might get a five-year grant, but the money arrives year by year after a progress report. A multi-year funding award moves all of that funding up front — a big lump sum at the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5358\" data-end=\"5744\">There’s nothing inherently wrong with that model; it gives researchers flexibility. But the devil’s in the details of how you roll it out. If you push to a multi-year model without increasing the budget or phasing it in over, say, ten years, then the result is fewer researchers receiving funding because you’re giving larger chunks of money at once while the pot stays the same size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5746\" data-end=\"6131\">The result is hyper-competitiveness. We expect that to continue in 2026 and beyond. Where you might have had a one-in-ten chance of getting an NIH grant, now it might be one in twenty-five or one in thirty. That really changes the calculus for researchers — how much time and effort to spend on a proposal, what the odds are — and it’s impacting morale across U.S. biomedical research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6153\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One imagines the corona of any culture-war-related topic will be avoided entirely. Anything that seems like it might touch that — why would a researcher who already has, you know, a four percent chance of getting a grant try to study those things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6421\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6803\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in some other voices here. We want to hear from you, listeners. We know we have a lot of researchers who listen to the show. Maybe you’ve been affected by the changes and cuts at NIH — the chaos. Tell us about your experience. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial — we know some of those were disrupted. What are your concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6805\" data-end=\"6908\">You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6891\" data-end=\"6905\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6910\" data-end=\"7115\">Let’s bring in Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. His lab uses NIH funding to study the thymus, with implications for cancer treatment and aging. Thanks for joining us, Joel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7134\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did all this hit you? How did this affect your particular lab?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7466\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7281\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. There have been multiple impacts. Some are very real, and others are psychological — the uncertainty. But I’ll first give an example of the immediate impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7468\" data-end=\"7778\">One way that we do our science is in a training environment. While we’re studying the thymus — which, for listeners who don’t know, is an important immune organ that sits just above your heart, under your sternum — we also train scientists. We train the next generation of scientists, engineers, and leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7780\" data-end=\"8069\">Part of our funding for that training comes from what’s called a training grant from NIH. Those were abruptly stopped mid-stream. That left us scrambling. It left my students — whose livelihoods depend on that funding — suddenly without support, with no clear picture of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8071\" data-end=\"8264\">These training programs take four to six years for a PhD. You’ve already moved somewhere and built your life there. Suddenly losing funding can be extremely disruptive — and that’s what we saw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8286\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about the actual grant funding you would have otherwise gotten? I know in your career much of your work has been funded by the federal government, because we want to invest in people like you to do this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8777\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8523\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yes. So our current main funding comes from NIH to study the thymus. And to get one of these grants, as Megan alluded to earlier, it takes many tries — maybe one in ten grants you submit gets funded. We’re constantly thinking about writing new grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8779\" data-end=\"9058\">Once you submit a grant — which can take months or even years to develop — it gets reviewed, then goes through a funding decision, and finally, maybe a year later, you get the funding to do the work. It’s a long process from submission to award, so we’re always moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9060\" data-end=\"9369\">But when the brakes were put on at NIH, it really impacted that whole process. I was unable to submit grants; I thought, what’s the point? They’re not being reviewed. Study sections — the groups of scientists who review grants — were put on hold. So submitting a grant essentially meant it would go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9631\">We put the brakes on submissions. Now that some of this has restarted, it’s extremely competitive. So yes, we’re currently funded, but our future work — the things we’re learning now that we need more funding to pursue — is extremely competitive and uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9996\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9653\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the impact of chaos and funding cuts on America’s medical research field. We’re joined by Megan Molteni, a science writer at STAT News. If you want to read her whole article, including data, it’s titled \u003cem data-start=\"9877\" data-end=\"9994\">“Trump Has Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities. What Now?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9998\" data-end=\"10179\">We’re also joined by Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. As we’ve noted, his lab studies the thymus with implications for cancer treatment and aging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10181\" data-end=\"10360\">We’re taking your calls too. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial. Maybe you’re a researcher. Maybe you’re a staffer affected by all of this at one of our research universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10362\" data-end=\"10490\">The number is 866-733-6786. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The National Institutes of Health have historically funded scientists to find cures for diseases and protect public health. NIH funding has led to the discovery of immune therapies for cancer, antiviral treatments and prevention of HIV, and ground-breaking research into memory loss and Alzheimer’s disease. After a year of funding cuts and freezes that have rocked the medical research field to its core, we catch up with leading researchers at the University of California to talk about the impact this has had on their work and our ability to fight humanity’s most puzzling illnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"429\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"441\" data-end=\"448\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Earlier this year, journalists were all over the story about funding cuts and freezes in our nation’s medical research infrastructure. The word that actually went into a lot of headlines was “devastating.” But there’s a lot going on — so much news, so many changes to everything — and the narrative about what has happened to research funding has largely fallen off the front pages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1061\">Today, we’re going to talk with a journalist who’s still reporting on what’s happening. Then we’re going to bring in a trio of University of California researchers who’ve been affected by all the chaos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1302\">We’re joined first by Megan Molteni, who’s a science writer at STAT News. Her latest article is titled, \u003cem data-start=\"1167\" data-end=\"1286\">“Trump Has ‘Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities.’ What Now?”\u003c/em> Welcome, Megan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1338\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1322\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1360\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So just catch people up. People probably saw these headlines — devastating funding cuts at NIH. This was back in February. But maybe they haven’t followed, you know, step by step what’s happened. Just walk us through quickly what happened this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1883\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1630\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There’s a lot to go through, so we may not cover it all. But the impacts sort of fall into a couple of buckets. There were terminations to a large number of grants starting in February. We’re talking about billions of dollars of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"2156\">Those terminations fell into a few different areas that were not in alignment with the administration’s political agenda. So we were looking at grants related to HIV/AIDS research, gender and sex and transgender health research, vaccine research, and a few other areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2585\">A number of those grants were restored through the courts — federal judges ruled those cuts unlawful, and the NIH had to restore them. But there’s a bigger picture those terminations don’t really capture, and that’s the way a variety of actions the administration has taken against the NIH have really broken this trust that has underlain the last eighty years of scientific innovation and research at America’s universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2587\" data-end=\"3014\">These actions include large-scale layoffs at NIH that have impacted the ability of the institutes to hold peer-review sessions to award new grants. There’s been a real slowdown there. That slowdown includes policies implemented over the summer from the Office of Management and Budget at the White House — this is Russell Vought’s office — that directed NIH to move to what’s called an “up-front” or multi-year funding model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3016\" data-end=\"3184\">The way this was rolled out — very quickly and abruptly — meant that NIH was able to award fewer new grants in 2025, in addition to some of the cuts we’ve already seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3206\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What did the administration say its rationale was for all these changes at NIH, given that the United States has been a leader in medical research all around the world for decades?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3661\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3407\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Well, I think in some ways what we’re actually seeing is less a cohesive policy agenda about how we do science in America and more the weaponization of NIH funds in the culture war the administration is waging against institutions of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3663\" data-end=\"3866\">NIH is the largest funder of biomedical research in the world. They have a $48 billion budget; $38 billion of that goes outside its walls — often to America’s universities and medical research centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4265\">It’s really been used by the administration as a way to exert leverage over elite institutions that it sees as having run afoul — either due to so-called “woke leftist ideology” or accusations of mishandling antisemitism on campus. So many policy experts we’ve spoken to this year see what’s happened at NIH — and its relationship with academic partners — as collateral damage in that culture war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4287\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I remember — we’re going to bring in a professor in just a second who studies the thymus at UC Merced. It’s like, why was \u003cem data-start=\"4416\" data-end=\"4420\">he\u003c/em> collateral damage in this? Before we get there, though: the NIH — this actually surprised me, and listeners may not know this — did manage to allocate its full budget by the end of the year. Despite the cuts and chaos, they got all of the grant money supposedly out the door by the end of September. That sounds like good news. There’s got to be a catch, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"5065\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"4803\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Right. So that goes back to how they were able to get the money out despite losing a lot of grant management specialists — staff who push the money out the door — while also dealing with a backlog of applications due to slowdowns and pauses early in the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5067\" data-end=\"5356\">They shifted to this multi-year funding model. Historically, NIH funded awards annually. A researcher might get a five-year grant, but the money arrives year by year after a progress report. A multi-year funding award moves all of that funding up front — a big lump sum at the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5358\" data-end=\"5744\">There’s nothing inherently wrong with that model; it gives researchers flexibility. But the devil’s in the details of how you roll it out. If you push to a multi-year model without increasing the budget or phasing it in over, say, ten years, then the result is fewer researchers receiving funding because you’re giving larger chunks of money at once while the pot stays the same size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5746\" data-end=\"6131\">The result is hyper-competitiveness. We expect that to continue in 2026 and beyond. Where you might have had a one-in-ten chance of getting an NIH grant, now it might be one in twenty-five or one in thirty. That really changes the calculus for researchers — how much time and effort to spend on a proposal, what the odds are — and it’s impacting morale across U.S. biomedical research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6153\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One imagines the corona of any culture-war-related topic will be avoided entirely. Anything that seems like it might touch that — why would a researcher who already has, you know, a four percent chance of getting a grant try to study those things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6421\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6803\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in some other voices here. We want to hear from you, listeners. We know we have a lot of researchers who listen to the show. Maybe you’ve been affected by the changes and cuts at NIH — the chaos. Tell us about your experience. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial — we know some of those were disrupted. What are your concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6805\" data-end=\"6908\">You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6891\" data-end=\"6905\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6910\" data-end=\"7115\">Let’s bring in Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. His lab uses NIH funding to study the thymus, with implications for cancer treatment and aging. Thanks for joining us, Joel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7134\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did all this hit you? How did this affect your particular lab?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7466\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7281\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. There have been multiple impacts. Some are very real, and others are psychological — the uncertainty. But I’ll first give an example of the immediate impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7468\" data-end=\"7778\">One way that we do our science is in a training environment. While we’re studying the thymus — which, for listeners who don’t know, is an important immune organ that sits just above your heart, under your sternum — we also train scientists. We train the next generation of scientists, engineers, and leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7780\" data-end=\"8069\">Part of our funding for that training comes from what’s called a training grant from NIH. Those were abruptly stopped mid-stream. That left us scrambling. It left my students — whose livelihoods depend on that funding — suddenly without support, with no clear picture of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8071\" data-end=\"8264\">These training programs take four to six years for a PhD. You’ve already moved somewhere and built your life there. Suddenly losing funding can be extremely disruptive — and that’s what we saw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8286\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about the actual grant funding you would have otherwise gotten? I know in your career much of your work has been funded by the federal government, because we want to invest in people like you to do this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8777\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8523\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yes. So our current main funding comes from NIH to study the thymus. And to get one of these grants, as Megan alluded to earlier, it takes many tries — maybe one in ten grants you submit gets funded. We’re constantly thinking about writing new grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8779\" data-end=\"9058\">Once you submit a grant — which can take months or even years to develop — it gets reviewed, then goes through a funding decision, and finally, maybe a year later, you get the funding to do the work. It’s a long process from submission to award, so we’re always moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9060\" data-end=\"9369\">But when the brakes were put on at NIH, it really impacted that whole process. I was unable to submit grants; I thought, what’s the point? They’re not being reviewed. Study sections — the groups of scientists who review grants — were put on hold. So submitting a grant essentially meant it would go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9631\">We put the brakes on submissions. Now that some of this has restarted, it’s extremely competitive. So yes, we’re currently funded, but our future work — the things we’re learning now that we need more funding to pursue — is extremely competitive and uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9996\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9653\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the impact of chaos and funding cuts on America’s medical research field. We’re joined by Megan Molteni, a science writer at STAT News. If you want to read her whole article, including data, it’s titled \u003cem data-start=\"9877\" data-end=\"9994\">“Trump Has Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities. What Now?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9998\" data-end=\"10179\">We’re also joined by Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. As we’ve noted, his lab studies the thymus with implications for cancer treatment and aging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10181\" data-end=\"10360\">We’re taking your calls too. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial. Maybe you’re a researcher. Maybe you’re a staffer affected by all of this at one of our research universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10362\" data-end=\"10490\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10403\" data-end=\"10417\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. And on social media — Bluesky, Instagram, Discord — we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10492\" data-end=\"10524\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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