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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As protests against federal immigration agents’ use of deadly force in Minneapolis spread nationwide, privacy experts are raising alarms. Immigration agencies are using facial-recognition and other tools to identify immigrants – and to track American citizens who observe or protest ICE operations. The surveillance technology allows agents to scan people’s faces and link them to government databases. It’s a practice that those targeted say amounts to intimidation and retaliation. We’ll talk about how the technologies work and what they mean for enforcement and civil liberties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"318\" data-end=\"840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"318\" data-end=\"335\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem data-start=\"344\" data-end=\"351\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Marisa Lagos, in for Mina Kim. ICE raids and protests are rattling cities, including Chicago and Minneapolis, as federal agents deploy a myriad of new surveillance tools. ICE agents are attempting to identify protesters and observers by scanning their faces and license plates with smartphones, using cell phone data and social media posts, scouring online activity, and using personal data to identify people’s real-time locations — potentially even hacking into their phones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"842\" data-end=\"1207\">In several cases, protesters have reported ICE agents filming their faces with phone cameras and informing them that they are being added to a database of domestic terrorists. This all comes as ICE shells out tens of millions of dollars to acquire this technology, thanks to a massive infusion of cash provided by Republicans in Congress and President Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1209\" data-end=\"1379\">In this hour, we’re going to dig into what this technology does, how it’s being used, the concerns it’s raising, and whether — or how — it could potentially be reined in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1381\" data-end=\"1503\">I want to welcome Sheera Frenkel. She’s a technology reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1466\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, based in the Bay Area. Hey, Sheera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1505\" data-end=\"1529\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1505\" data-end=\"1524\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Hey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1702\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1548\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Also with us this hour is Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program. Rachel, thanks for being here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1704\" data-end=\"1754\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1704\" data-end=\"1732\">Rachel Levinson-Waldman:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1756\" data-end=\"1936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1756\" data-end=\"1773\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So, Sheera, I want to start with you. You recently co-wrote a story about a particular protester in New York named Nicole Cleland. Tell us what Nicole’s story is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1938\" data-end=\"2315\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1938\" data-end=\"1957\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Nicole’s story is that she’s a middle-aged American woman who lives in Minneapolis who, a few months ago, was pretty outraged by what she saw as ICE activity in her community. She joined an observer group and decided she was going to start trailing ICE agents in her car and letting people in her community know when they were nearby by blowing her whistle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2317\" data-end=\"2682\">One day, a couple of weeks ago in January, she’s following an ICE agent in his car when, all of a sudden, he pulls over. He gets out of his car, walks over to her, and addresses her by her first name. That’s already creepy — right? She has no arrest record. She’s never run afoul of the law. She told me she maybe has a parking ticket here and there, but that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2684\" data-end=\"3191\">So he gets out, calls her by name, and then tells her, “If you keep following me, you’ll be arrested.” She goes home and debates with her husband and friends what to do. Then, a couple of days later, she gets an email letting her know that her TSA PreCheck has been revoked — her ability to move easily through airport security has been taken away. There’s no further explanation. She just knows that the Department of Homeland Security has put her on a list of people who are not considered safe to travel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3193\" data-end=\"3660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3193\" data-end=\"3210\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Wow. And I want to be clear about what she was doing. This is part of a tactic we’ve seen among people who have concerns about how ICE operates. There are protests, obviously, but there are also observers. And we know that, arguably, both of the American citizens who were shot and killed in Minneapolis were part of these groups — people who were going out and essentially just trying to document what’s happening in public spaces. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3960\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3681\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Yes. They’re in public spaces. As she told me, these are streets she drives on all the time. She’s in a personal vehicle. She’s not blocking traffic. She’s not getting especially close to the car in front of her. She’s just following it and letting people know where it’s going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3962\" data-end=\"4178\">I’ll add one more important detail: she doesn’t know how the ICE agent knew her name. There’s a possibility he used a license plate reader, and there’s also the possibility that he used facial recognition technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4180\" data-end=\"4276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4180\" data-end=\"4197\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Wow. Is this common? Is this an experience you’re hearing about more and more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4278\" data-end=\"4550\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4278\" data-end=\"4297\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> I spoke with just over a dozen people who were either addressed by ICE agents or told by ICE agents that their identities were known through facial recognition technology. Some of them were so terrified that they didn’t want to be on the phone with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4552\" data-end=\"4913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4552\" data-end=\"4569\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Before we unpack all of this further, Rachel, I want to bring you in. Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice. Is anything Sheera just described — anything Nicole was doing — illegal, or a legal basis for being put on what’s being described as a domestic terrorism list?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4915\" data-end=\"5323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4915\" data-end=\"4943\">Rachel Levinson-Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. That’s a great question. Being an observer, being a protester — those activities are squarely protected by the First Amendment. The law and the Constitution are quite clear. If you are in public and a federal officer or a police officer is doing their job in public, you are entitled to watch them. You’re entitled to take photographs. You’re largely entitled to record them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5325\" data-end=\"5521\">Now, you can’t interfere with legitimate law enforcement activity. But as long as someone is maintaining an appropriate distance, that is well within your rights as a person in this country to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5523\" data-end=\"6026\">And your question about whether that would justify being put into a database of so-called domestic terrorists is also very well put. We do know that this is something the administration has been threatening and has laid out in policy. Multiple memos issued in the fall by President Trump, followed by a memo from Attorney General Pam Bondi, set out a framework that casts ordinary Americans — individuals and civil society organizations exercising their lawful rights — as potential domestic terrorists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6028\" data-end=\"6249\">And we’re starting to see how that’s playing out in the streets, with people being very specifically threatened with being labeled domestic terrorists and placed into a government database on the basis of lawful activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6251\" data-end=\"6425\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6251\" data-end=\"6268\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So it seems like there are kind of two things at play here. One is how this administration is collecting and using data. The other is the technology itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6427\" data-end=\"6793\">I remember, as a very young reporter, being sent to a house in the East Bay that the FBI had raided. Someone was accused of a pretty serious crime. A police officer walked up to me after, I think, running my license plate, and said, “Hi, Marisa.” It freaked me out at the time. But that officer was sitting in a marked police cruiser and using an established system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6795\" data-end=\"7110\">That’s not necessarily what’s happening here. We’ve seen an explosion of surveillance technology — even in liberal cities like San Francisco. If you go to the SFPD website, there’s a list of what they use, and there are clear policies and conditions. I don’t believe we’re seeing that from the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7112\" data-end=\"7314\">I want to talk about some of these specific technologies. Facial recognition, in particular — Mobile Fortify and Clearview AI. What do we know about these companies, and what is the tech actually doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7316\" data-end=\"7613\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7316\" data-end=\"7335\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> What’s so important about what you just said is guardrails. In the Bay Area, there are a lot of guardrails on this technology. We don’t really know right now what kind of guardrails exist — if any — on the federal tools, including the facial recognition programs you mentioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7615\" data-end=\"7932\">Clearview AI is a private facial recognition company that has worked with the Department of Homeland Security for years. Historically, it was used for very targeted investigations — things like child exploitation or stolen artifacts circulating on black markets. That part of DHS has been well-funded for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7934\" data-end=\"8322\">But when the Trump administration made immigration enforcement a central priority, a significant amount of funding was redirected to ICE. ICE needed a tool that agents could easily use in the field. That’s when Mobile Fortify comes in. It originated with Customs and Border Protection and was transferred to ICE. It’s essentially a plug-and-play app that requires no technical background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8324\" data-end=\"8584\">We don’t know what image databases went into Mobile Fortify. Some people I spoke with believe it could include passport photos or images taken at border crossings — which could mean millions of people. Anyone who’s crossed a border, documented or undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8586\" data-end=\"8765\">So we don’t know the source data. We don’t know the error rates. We don’t know how accurate it is. And yet it appears to be used on both undocumented immigrants and U.S. citizens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8767\" data-end=\"8898\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8767\" data-end=\"8784\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And so agents are essentially scanning your face with a cell phone camera, and that’s being linked to other data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"9277\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"8919\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Yes. They scan your face, and it returns a possible match. But something important to note is that facial recognition tools historically perform worse on people who are not white and on people from countries that are underrepresented online. Some of these images could be decades old, taken from border cameras or surveillance footage. We simply don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9279\" data-end=\"9456\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9279\" data-end=\"9296\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And these are private companies, relying largely on scraped public data. Clearview alone has reportedly scraped billions of images from social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9458\" data-end=\"9690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9458\" data-end=\"9477\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Americans have known for a long time that facial recognition exists. But I think many people assumed it would be used for marketing or retail or convenience — not for large-scale government surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9692\" data-end=\"9889\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9692\" data-end=\"9709\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’ve gotten comfortable carrying smartphones and uploading photos of ourselves and our families. But maybe people didn’t expect that data to be folded into a government database.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9891\" data-end=\"10140\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9891\" data-end=\"9910\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> That’s what really matters here. There’s been an expectation that the government would be responsible about how it uses this technology. What’s surprising — and alarming — is how aggressively and casually it’s being deployed now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10142\" data-end=\"10411\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10142\" data-end=\"10159\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about surveillance tools being used by federal agents with Sheera Frenkel, technology reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10292\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, and Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10413\" data-end=\"10632\">We want to hear from you. What questions do you have about the technology being used by ICE and Customs and Border Protection? Do you think you’ve been surveilled or tracked as you exercised your First Amendment rights?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10634\" data-end=\"10799\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10648\" data-end=\"10662\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can call us at 866-733-6786. Or you can find us on social media — Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, Threads. We’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10801\" data-end=\"10821\">We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As protests against federal immigration agents’ use of deadly force in Minneapolis spread nationwide, privacy experts are raising alarms. Immigration agencies are using facial-recognition and other tools to identify immigrants – and to track American citizens who observe or protest ICE operations. The surveillance technology allows agents to scan people’s faces and link them to government databases. It’s a practice that those targeted say amounts to intimidation and retaliation. We’ll talk about how the technologies work and what they mean for enforcement and civil liberties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"318\" data-end=\"840\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"318\" data-end=\"335\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> This is \u003cem data-start=\"344\" data-end=\"351\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Marisa Lagos, in for Mina Kim. ICE raids and protests are rattling cities, including Chicago and Minneapolis, as federal agents deploy a myriad of new surveillance tools. ICE agents are attempting to identify protesters and observers by scanning their faces and license plates with smartphones, using cell phone data and social media posts, scouring online activity, and using personal data to identify people’s real-time locations — potentially even hacking into their phones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"842\" data-end=\"1207\">In several cases, protesters have reported ICE agents filming their faces with phone cameras and informing them that they are being added to a database of domestic terrorists. This all comes as ICE shells out tens of millions of dollars to acquire this technology, thanks to a massive infusion of cash provided by Republicans in Congress and President Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1209\" data-end=\"1379\">In this hour, we’re going to dig into what this technology does, how it’s being used, the concerns it’s raising, and whether — or how — it could potentially be reined in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1381\" data-end=\"1503\">I want to welcome Sheera Frenkel. She’s a technology reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"1446\" data-end=\"1466\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, based in the Bay Area. Hey, Sheera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1505\" data-end=\"1529\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1505\" data-end=\"1524\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Hey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1702\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1531\" data-end=\"1548\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Also with us this hour is Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program. Rachel, thanks for being here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1704\" data-end=\"1754\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1704\" data-end=\"1732\">Rachel Levinson-Waldman:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1756\" data-end=\"1936\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1756\" data-end=\"1773\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So, Sheera, I want to start with you. You recently co-wrote a story about a particular protester in New York named Nicole Cleland. Tell us what Nicole’s story is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1938\" data-end=\"2315\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1938\" data-end=\"1957\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Nicole’s story is that she’s a middle-aged American woman who lives in Minneapolis who, a few months ago, was pretty outraged by what she saw as ICE activity in her community. She joined an observer group and decided she was going to start trailing ICE agents in her car and letting people in her community know when they were nearby by blowing her whistle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2317\" data-end=\"2682\">One day, a couple of weeks ago in January, she’s following an ICE agent in his car when, all of a sudden, he pulls over. He gets out of his car, walks over to her, and addresses her by her first name. That’s already creepy — right? She has no arrest record. She’s never run afoul of the law. She told me she maybe has a parking ticket here and there, but that’s it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2684\" data-end=\"3191\">So he gets out, calls her by name, and then tells her, “If you keep following me, you’ll be arrested.” She goes home and debates with her husband and friends what to do. Then, a couple of days later, she gets an email letting her know that her TSA PreCheck has been revoked — her ability to move easily through airport security has been taken away. There’s no further explanation. She just knows that the Department of Homeland Security has put her on a list of people who are not considered safe to travel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3193\" data-end=\"3660\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3193\" data-end=\"3210\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Wow. And I want to be clear about what she was doing. This is part of a tactic we’ve seen among people who have concerns about how ICE operates. There are protests, obviously, but there are also observers. And we know that, arguably, both of the American citizens who were shot and killed in Minneapolis were part of these groups — people who were going out and essentially just trying to document what’s happening in public spaces. Is that correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3960\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3662\" data-end=\"3681\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Yes. They’re in public spaces. As she told me, these are streets she drives on all the time. She’s in a personal vehicle. She’s not blocking traffic. She’s not getting especially close to the car in front of her. She’s just following it and letting people know where it’s going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3962\" data-end=\"4178\">I’ll add one more important detail: she doesn’t know how the ICE agent knew her name. There’s a possibility he used a license plate reader, and there’s also the possibility that he used facial recognition technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4180\" data-end=\"4276\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4180\" data-end=\"4197\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Wow. Is this common? Is this an experience you’re hearing about more and more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4278\" data-end=\"4550\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4278\" data-end=\"4297\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> I spoke with just over a dozen people who were either addressed by ICE agents or told by ICE agents that their identities were known through facial recognition technology. Some of them were so terrified that they didn’t want to be on the phone with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4552\" data-end=\"4913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4552\" data-end=\"4569\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Before we unpack all of this further, Rachel, I want to bring you in. Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice. Is anything Sheera just described — anything Nicole was doing — illegal, or a legal basis for being put on what’s being described as a domestic terrorism list?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4915\" data-end=\"5323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4915\" data-end=\"4943\">Rachel Levinson-Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. That’s a great question. Being an observer, being a protester — those activities are squarely protected by the First Amendment. The law and the Constitution are quite clear. If you are in public and a federal officer or a police officer is doing their job in public, you are entitled to watch them. You’re entitled to take photographs. You’re largely entitled to record them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5325\" data-end=\"5521\">Now, you can’t interfere with legitimate law enforcement activity. But as long as someone is maintaining an appropriate distance, that is well within your rights as a person in this country to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5523\" data-end=\"6026\">And your question about whether that would justify being put into a database of so-called domestic terrorists is also very well put. We do know that this is something the administration has been threatening and has laid out in policy. Multiple memos issued in the fall by President Trump, followed by a memo from Attorney General Pam Bondi, set out a framework that casts ordinary Americans — individuals and civil society organizations exercising their lawful rights — as potential domestic terrorists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6028\" data-end=\"6249\">And we’re starting to see how that’s playing out in the streets, with people being very specifically threatened with being labeled domestic terrorists and placed into a government database on the basis of lawful activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6251\" data-end=\"6425\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6251\" data-end=\"6268\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> So it seems like there are kind of two things at play here. One is how this administration is collecting and using data. The other is the technology itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6427\" data-end=\"6793\">I remember, as a very young reporter, being sent to a house in the East Bay that the FBI had raided. Someone was accused of a pretty serious crime. A police officer walked up to me after, I think, running my license plate, and said, “Hi, Marisa.” It freaked me out at the time. But that officer was sitting in a marked police cruiser and using an established system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6795\" data-end=\"7110\">That’s not necessarily what’s happening here. We’ve seen an explosion of surveillance technology — even in liberal cities like San Francisco. If you go to the SFPD website, there’s a list of what they use, and there are clear policies and conditions. I don’t believe we’re seeing that from the Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7112\" data-end=\"7314\">I want to talk about some of these specific technologies. Facial recognition, in particular — Mobile Fortify and Clearview AI. What do we know about these companies, and what is the tech actually doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7316\" data-end=\"7613\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7316\" data-end=\"7335\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> What’s so important about what you just said is guardrails. In the Bay Area, there are a lot of guardrails on this technology. We don’t really know right now what kind of guardrails exist — if any — on the federal tools, including the facial recognition programs you mentioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7615\" data-end=\"7932\">Clearview AI is a private facial recognition company that has worked with the Department of Homeland Security for years. Historically, it was used for very targeted investigations — things like child exploitation or stolen artifacts circulating on black markets. That part of DHS has been well-funded for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7934\" data-end=\"8322\">But when the Trump administration made immigration enforcement a central priority, a significant amount of funding was redirected to ICE. ICE needed a tool that agents could easily use in the field. That’s when Mobile Fortify comes in. It originated with Customs and Border Protection and was transferred to ICE. It’s essentially a plug-and-play app that requires no technical background.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8324\" data-end=\"8584\">We don’t know what image databases went into Mobile Fortify. Some people I spoke with believe it could include passport photos or images taken at border crossings — which could mean millions of people. Anyone who’s crossed a border, documented or undocumented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8586\" data-end=\"8765\">So we don’t know the source data. We don’t know the error rates. We don’t know how accurate it is. And yet it appears to be used on both undocumented immigrants and U.S. citizens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8767\" data-end=\"8898\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8767\" data-end=\"8784\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And so agents are essentially scanning your face with a cell phone camera, and that’s being linked to other data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"9277\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"8919\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Yes. They scan your face, and it returns a possible match. But something important to note is that facial recognition tools historically perform worse on people who are not white and on people from countries that are underrepresented online. Some of these images could be decades old, taken from border cameras or surveillance footage. We simply don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9279\" data-end=\"9456\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9279\" data-end=\"9296\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And these are private companies, relying largely on scraped public data. Clearview alone has reportedly scraped billions of images from social media platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9458\" data-end=\"9690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9458\" data-end=\"9477\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Americans have known for a long time that facial recognition exists. But I think many people assumed it would be used for marketing or retail or convenience — not for large-scale government surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9692\" data-end=\"9889\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9692\" data-end=\"9709\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’ve gotten comfortable carrying smartphones and uploading photos of ourselves and our families. But maybe people didn’t expect that data to be folded into a government database.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9891\" data-end=\"10140\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9891\" data-end=\"9910\">Sheera Frenkel:\u003c/strong> That’s what really matters here. There’s been an expectation that the government would be responsible about how it uses this technology. What’s surprising — and alarming — is how aggressively and casually it’s being deployed now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10142\" data-end=\"10411\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10142\" data-end=\"10159\">Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about surveillance tools being used by federal agents with Sheera Frenkel, technology reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"10272\" data-end=\"10292\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, and Rachel Levinson-Waldman, director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10413\" data-end=\"10632\">We want to hear from you. What questions do you have about the technology being used by ICE and Customs and Border Protection? Do you think you’ve been surveilled or tracked as you exercised your First Amendment rights?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10634\" data-end=\"10799\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10648\" data-end=\"10662\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. You can call us at 866-733-6786. Or you can find us on social media — Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, Threads. We’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10801\" data-end=\"10821\">We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Over the weekend, San Francisco’s public school teachers voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike. The dispute is centered on pay, health benefits, and support for special education, all at a time when the district has been facing financial headwinds so dire that the state has contemplated stepping in to run the district. We’ll get the latest on the labor negotiations and talk about what a potential strike, which could begin as early as February 9, means for teachers, the district, students and their families.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Related Link(s):\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"http://San%20Francisco%20Teachers%20Strike:%20What%20Should%20Families%20Know?\">San Francisco Teachers Strike: What Should Families Know?\u003c/a>, KQED\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfusd-teachers-strike-21331694.php\">San Francisco teacher strike looms, with school closures possible\u003c/a>, San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"709\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"285\" data-end=\"305\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"317\" data-end=\"324\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There have been a bunch of teacher strikes over the last few years — West Contra Costa, Oakland, others around the state — but it’s been literally decades since the last teacher strike in San Francisco. Up first this morning, we’ve got San Francisco Chronicle K–12 education reporter Jill Tucker with us to catch us up on how we got to this point. Welcome, Jill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"752\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"711\" data-end=\"727\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Thanks. Nice to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"754\" data-end=\"774\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, okay — where are we? How long have they been bargaining? What’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"1199\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"854\" data-end=\"870\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> Yes. So, the San Francisco Unified School District and the teachers union have been bargaining for almost a year. They’ve gone through all of the steps of bargaining, from impasse to a mediator to fact-finding. And now they are at the very, very last step and on the brink of a strike, waiting today for the fact-finding report.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1201\" data-end=\"1547\">Once that report comes out — which is expected today — that is the final moment when the union and the district can come to terms. And at that point, the union, which has already voted overwhelmingly to strike, can set a date for a strike. They typically have to give 48 hours’ notice. So if that happens, we could see a strike as soon as Monday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1549\" data-end=\"1569\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This fact-finding report — will it change anything, you think? What will be in there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"2003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1657\" data-end=\"1673\">Jill Tucker:\u003c/strong> So the fact-finding report is based on the two sides coming together with a neutral third party and presenting their perspective on the budget and their perspective on what they believe to be a realistic contract — based on salary, benefits, all of the compensation, whether that’s class size or sabbaticals or health care plans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2005\" data-end=\"2381\">And then the fact-finder goes back and looks at all the information and provides recommendations for a contract based on the issues that are still outstanding. Both sides can either accept those recommendations or ignore them. So it’s supposed to give something of a common ground, or at least a neutral third party’s perspective on the information that was presented to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2383\" data-end=\"2467\">But both sides can ignore it. It really has no holding power. It’s basically advice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2469\" data-end=\"2489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Okay. Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle, here with us. I want to add in our first other voice here. Maria Su is superintendent of San Francisco Unified School District. Welcome, Maria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2769\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2712\" data-end=\"2725\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2906\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2771\" data-end=\"2791\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Thanks for joining us, Superintendent. So from your perspective, what are the sticking points in this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"3132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2908\" data-end=\"2921\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, first, I just want to say that we don’t want to strike. I just want to be clear — we don’t want to strike. We want to work with our educators and get to a resolution. I firmly believe we are really close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3134\" data-end=\"3420\">We know that the number-one priority we’re hearing from our educators is the very expensive cost of health care, particularly family health care. And last Friday, in our fact-finding meeting, we were able to come up with a really creative solution to fully cover family health benefits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3422\" data-end=\"3442\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is that creative solution?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3476\" data-end=\"3489\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, we were using — these are very technical terms — restricted funds that are restricted to pay for salaries and for benefits. So we’re using funds that are designated for this type of expenditure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3767\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3692\" data-end=\"3712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How is that different from what you were doing before?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"4030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3769\" data-end=\"3782\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We were using what are called unrestricted sources. In a school district, we have different types of funds that pay for staff. And we know that you can’t use one-time funds to pay for ongoing expenses — and, of course, staff is an ongoing expense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4032\" data-end=\"4147\">In this particular situation, we’re looking at all different types of sources because we do want to close the deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4175\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4149\" data-end=\"4169\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4177\" data-end=\"4190\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We are really close. I don’t want to strike, and we’re trying to be creative and meet our educators where they are so that we can get to a resolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4343\" data-end=\"4363\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So what is the financial state of the district right now? For those who are following loosely but not closely, you’ve got the state doing oversight. What does that mean for you in terms of this negotiation?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4572\" data-end=\"4585\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, a year ago, the district was placed under a certification called a negative certification. What that means is that we do not have enough funding to cover our current-year expenses plus the next two years of expenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4989\">And just for our listeners to understand, 85 percent of our budget pays for staff. So it’s really, really difficult when we’re talking about trying to close a huge budget deficit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4991\" data-end=\"5231\">However, last year, we were able to close the deficit. We actually closed a $114 million deficit without having to lay off any of our teachers, because we recognize how important it is to have a qualified educator in every single classroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How were you able to do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5285\" data-end=\"5298\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> We had a number of different strategies. One of our largest strategies was to offer an early retirement package. We said thank you so much to all of our employees who have worked for many years in the district, and we said, if you are thinking about retirement in the next couple of years, perhaps you would want to retire now to help us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5639\" data-end=\"5731\">And we did. We got a number of people who said, yes, I’m ready to retire, and I will retire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5733\" data-end=\"6030\">We also got to the $114 million in cuts through contract negotiations. We were able to either close some contracts or renegotiate the terms of those contracts. We also got there through operational efficiencies. I had to reduce central office from hundreds of people down to a much smaller number.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6060\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6032\" data-end=\"6052\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6337\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6062\" data-end=\"6075\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> But again, we did that without laying off our educators, because we know that the primary goal — the reason for a school district’s existence — is to educate our students. We want to go back to basics and make sure our students learn reading, math, and writing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6339\" data-end=\"6437\">That’s why it’s so important for me to offer fully funded family health benefits to our educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6439\" data-end=\"6459\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about San Francisco teachers authorizing a strike, which could begin as early as next week, in the ongoing negotiations. We’ve got Maria Su, superintendent with San Francisco Unified School District, with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6684\" data-end=\"6954\">Of course, we want to hear from you. You can give us a call at 866-733-6786. You’re a parent, you’re a teacher, you’re a student — give us a call. 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6859\" data-end=\"6873\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. On social media — BlueSky, Instagram, Discord — we’re @KQEDForum there as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6956\" data-end=\"7139\">You know, the district currently has this rainy-day fund. I think it has $111 million, and you may have a better number than that. Why not use it in this instance? Can it not be used?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7141\" data-end=\"7154\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> So we created a special fund — again, technical — called Fund 17. And yes, you can call it a rainy-day fund. Essentially, it’s a set-aside that can be used for emergencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7329\" data-end=\"7649\">A great example was just what happened a couple of months ago, when we heard that the federal government was going to reduce or cut funding for SNAP programs, which are food subsidies for children and families. The city was able to use its reserve to make sure those benefits continued for our most vulnerable residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7651\" data-end=\"7991\">The same could be said here. These are special emergency funds that can be used in moments of emergency. Just a couple of days ago, we had a swarm of earthquakes. God forbid, if we have an earthquake and something terrible happens to one of our schools, we need to be able to tap into some form of funding to meet the needs of our students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8019\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8021\" data-end=\"8034\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> I will also say that our monthly payroll is $69 million. So $111 million in emergency funds would only cover about a month and a half of payroll.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8606\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8182\" data-end=\"8202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm. Let’s get some listener comments to you. Andrea writes, “It seems like the district is assuming our educators will go on strike and not doing anything to stop it. It sounds like the district never gave the union any written proposals. As a parent of two kids at Sunnyside Elementary, I’m asking you to give the teachers not only an offer, but a good offer. These people help raise our children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8608\" data-end=\"8769\">And I’ve heard this from several different places, Superintendent — that there haven’t been written offers of some of these things, official offers to the union.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"9026\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8784\">Maria Su:\u003c/strong> Well, this is the nature of bargaining. We have shared our creative solutions around fully funding family health benefits, which, by the way, would add anywhere from $1,000 up to $1,600 of cash back into the pockets of our amazing educators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9028\" data-end=\"9272\">We did share ideas around augmenting salaries for hard-to-staff special education paraprofessionals, because these are positions that are really difficult to fill. We’ve agreed that we will provide additional incentives to bring on these staff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9374\">We’ve also shared that we would like to offer a 6 percent salary increase over the next three years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9376\" data-end=\"9612\">So we have shared. And mind you, we have spent the last 11 months in conversation. Through those 11 months, we have already agreed on a number of items. These are just the last few things we need to get back to the table and figure out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9634\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Stay with us — Superintendent Maria Su with San Francisco Unified, and Jill Tucker, K–12 education reporter with the San Francisco Chronicle. We’re going to try to get to a couple of calls right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9848\" data-end=\"9937\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9889\" data-end=\"9903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, February 3 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>New York Times cooking writer and columnist Yewande Komolafe has long loved the solitary, meditative act of crafting intricate meals and comfort foods in the kitchen. But after multiple amputations profoundly altered her body, Komolafe had to learn to cook in a new way: with adaptive tools, learning “how to whisk a bowl of cream to milky soft peaks with prosthetic hands,” and with other chefs’ assistance. That collaboration helped Komolafe better understand the curative effects of a good meal, both “physiologically and psychologically.” We talk with Komolafe about the restorative powers of cooking a hot dish of fried calamari or shrimp scampi and her journey of self-rediscovery. Her new article for the Times is “How Losing My Limbs Turned Me Into a Different Kind of Cook.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> food columnist and cookbook author Yewande Komolafe has been a comforting presence in my kitchen for years. She introduced me to jollof rice. Like her, I believe shortbread is a perfect cookie. And her gochujang chicken and vegetable sheet-pan recipe—which has over ten thousand five-star reviews—well, that one is a banger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For Komolafe, the kitchen has always been a place of meditation, study, and refuge. But after she suffered a severe illness that resulted in the loss of her legs and fingers, she found that the greatest distance she had ever traveled was back to her kitchen. She recounts this journey in a recent \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> piece, and she joins us now. Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Yewande.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much, Grace. It’s really nice to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re so happy to have you. And before we talk about what brought you to the hospital, since you’re a food writer, I think we need to start with food. In particular, there’s this cake from Radio Bakery in Brooklyn that a friend brought you while you were recovering in the hospital. You mention it in your piece. What was it about that cake that stood out for you? Was it the cake itself, or the person who brought it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, it was a lot of things about the cake. I should say that I am a full cake person. Just like I love shortbread, I love cake—and desserts with just a few ingredients that can completely explode when I taste them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That cake was one of the first sweet things I was able to ingest, chew, and swallow. And it was incredible—an explosion of different notes of brown butter, the crumbly texture, the way the sugar was caramelized on the outside. There was crunch, there was softness—it was everything about that cake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s what makes you such a great food writer—the way you describe food. You call it “an exquisite balance of sweet and savory with a crunchy exterior and pillowy softness.” I could literally taste the cake, and I wanted a slice after I read that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two months after your cookbook \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My Everyday Lagos\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was published to great acclaim, you found yourself in the hospital. What brought you there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m someone who has always lived with physical limitations, and I’m also very impulsive. I love to travel. Once my book came out and I could travel again, my family and I went to Paris. My husband, our girls—we had an incredible time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we came back, though, between the travel and the stress, we all got sick. I didn’t test at the time, but when I finally got to the hospital, I tested positive for influenza A.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I understand my body’s limitations and the need to balance stress with rest, I tried to recover—hydration, rest, all the things you do to get better. But eventually I realized I couldn’t just tough it out, and that’s when I went to the hospital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You also live with sickle cell anemia, which you talk about in your piece. Did that factor into the severity of your illness?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it did. It’s something I’ve dealt with my whole life, something I’ve known since I was born. I’ve come to understand my body well enough to know I have to constantly create balance for myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You end up in the hospital, and you go into a coma for about six weeks. When did you realize—when did you wake up and understand that you were in the hospital?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honestly, I have no memory of it at all. I only know what happened because of our family rituals—what we always do when I get sick or when the kids get sick. I ended up in the hospital, but I don’t remember any of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When you did wake up, you were later told that you would lose your legs and your fingers. But you never lost faith that you would return to the kitchen. How did you hold onto that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I understand that I am not my body. I’ve come to know that even though my spirit is passionate and creative, the limitations of my body don’t define me. I see myself as both spirit and body—and my spirit is untethered. My body exists in this world with varying abilities, but that’s not the sum of who I am.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now you’ve gone from being a solo practitioner in the kitchen to using an electric wheelchair and prosthetic hands. The kitchen has always been a refuge for you. Is it still the same place now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is—it’s just changed. When I woke up from the coma and was told everything, I also woke up very hungry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we can all relate to that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As soon as I could eat, I asked my friends to bring me food from everywhere. I craved flavor. I craved chewing, crunching. I craved really spicy food. I craved everything familiar to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To me, food is not a place. It’s the act of making, the act of sharing, the act of instructing. It just happens that the kitchen is where most of that occurs. So my kitchen hasn’t changed—though I have. Now there are more people in it, people acting as my hands and legs, bringing a pot down so I can see what’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My kitchen has become an act of collaboration. We do it together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I got the sense from your piece that you could make a party anywhere. One of my favorite moments is when you had your husband set up an iPad so you could decide exactly what you were going to eat in your hospital room—because there was no way this food writer was eating cafeteria food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is so true. To the hospital’s credit, they did try to feed me. But I’m a cook and a food writer, and the taste just wasn’t hitting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just didn’t taste right. So I started using my iPad to order amatriciana, Indian food, Nigerian food—whatever I could.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I felt sad imagining you eating a sad ham sandwich, and then realized—oh no, she did not do that. She got herself pepper stew with red palm oil.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I instantly turned to what was familiar. That’s such a human thing—to seek comfort when you need it. Food was my source of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think everyone can relate to that. We’re all nodding along. We’re talking with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> columnist, video host, and recipe developer Yewande Komolafe, author of the James Beard–nominated cookbook \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My Everyday Lagos\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In 2024, following a severe illness, Komolafe became a multiple amputee. Last year, she returned to the kitchen and her career as a food writer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d love to hear from you. How is the kitchen a refuge for you, and what recipe has comforted you during dark or difficult times?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yewande, before we go to a break, I have to ask: what does it feel like to have a recipe with ten thousand five-star reviews?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I told my editor yesterday that my brain does not compute that. When I write a recipe, it’s this instinct to create, to bring something to life in a tactile way. Once it leaves me, I don’t read the comments. I don’t read what people think. It feels like a liberation once the recipe leaves my body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, as someone who always reads the comments on the cooking app, I can tell you—you’re considered a goddess of the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is a heavy crown to carry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> food columnist and cookbook author Yewande Komolafe has been a comforting presence in my kitchen for years. She introduced me to jollof rice. Like her, I believe shortbread is a perfect cookie. And her gochujang chicken and vegetable sheet-pan recipe—which has over ten thousand five-star reviews—well, that one is a banger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For Komolafe, the kitchen has always been a place of meditation, study, and refuge. But after she suffered a severe illness that resulted in the loss of her legs and fingers, she found that the greatest distance she had ever traveled was back to her kitchen. She recounts this journey in a recent \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> piece, and she joins us now. Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Yewande.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much, Grace. It’s really nice to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re so happy to have you. And before we talk about what brought you to the hospital, since you’re a food writer, I think we need to start with food. In particular, there’s this cake from Radio Bakery in Brooklyn that a friend brought you while you were recovering in the hospital. You mention it in your piece. What was it about that cake that stood out for you? Was it the cake itself, or the person who brought it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, it was a lot of things about the cake. I should say that I am a full cake person. Just like I love shortbread, I love cake—and desserts with just a few ingredients that can completely explode when I taste them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That cake was one of the first sweet things I was able to ingest, chew, and swallow. And it was incredible—an explosion of different notes of brown butter, the crumbly texture, the way the sugar was caramelized on the outside. There was crunch, there was softness—it was everything about that cake.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that’s what makes you such a great food writer—the way you describe food. You call it “an exquisite balance of sweet and savory with a crunchy exterior and pillowy softness.” I could literally taste the cake, and I wanted a slice after I read that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Two months after your cookbook \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My Everyday Lagos\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> was published to great acclaim, you found yourself in the hospital. What brought you there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m someone who has always lived with physical limitations, and I’m also very impulsive. I love to travel. Once my book came out and I could travel again, my family and I went to Paris. My husband, our girls—we had an incredible time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we came back, though, between the travel and the stress, we all got sick. I didn’t test at the time, but when I finally got to the hospital, I tested positive for influenza A.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because I understand my body’s limitations and the need to balance stress with rest, I tried to recover—hydration, rest, all the things you do to get better. But eventually I realized I couldn’t just tough it out, and that’s when I went to the hospital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You also live with sickle cell anemia, which you talk about in your piece. Did that factor into the severity of your illness?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it did. It’s something I’ve dealt with my whole life, something I’ve known since I was born. I’ve come to understand my body well enough to know I have to constantly create balance for myself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You end up in the hospital, and you go into a coma for about six weeks. When did you realize—when did you wake up and understand that you were in the hospital?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Honestly, I have no memory of it at all. I only know what happened because of our family rituals—what we always do when I get sick or when the kids get sick. I ended up in the hospital, but I don’t remember any of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When you did wake up, you were later told that you would lose your legs and your fingers. But you never lost faith that you would return to the kitchen. How did you hold onto that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I understand that I am not my body. I’ve come to know that even though my spirit is passionate and creative, the limitations of my body don’t define me. I see myself as both spirit and body—and my spirit is untethered. My body exists in this world with varying abilities, but that’s not the sum of who I am.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now you’ve gone from being a solo practitioner in the kitchen to using an electric wheelchair and prosthetic hands. The kitchen has always been a refuge for you. Is it still the same place now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is—it’s just changed. When I woke up from the coma and was told everything, I also woke up very hungry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think we can all relate to that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As soon as I could eat, I asked my friends to bring me food from everywhere. I craved flavor. I craved chewing, crunching. I craved really spicy food. I craved everything familiar to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To me, food is not a place. It’s the act of making, the act of sharing, the act of instructing. It just happens that the kitchen is where most of that occurs. So my kitchen hasn’t changed—though I have. Now there are more people in it, people acting as my hands and legs, bringing a pot down so I can see what’s happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My kitchen has become an act of collaboration. We do it together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I got the sense from your piece that you could make a party anywhere. One of my favorite moments is when you had your husband set up an iPad so you could decide exactly what you were going to eat in your hospital room—because there was no way this food writer was eating cafeteria food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is so true. To the hospital’s credit, they did try to feed me. But I’m a cook and a food writer, and the taste just wasn’t hitting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It just didn’t taste right. So I started using my iPad to order amatriciana, Indian food, Nigerian food—whatever I could.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I felt sad imagining you eating a sad ham sandwich, and then realized—oh no, she did not do that. She got herself pepper stew with red palm oil.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I instantly turned to what was familiar. That’s such a human thing—to seek comfort when you need it. Food was my source of comfort.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think everyone can relate to that. We’re all nodding along. We’re talking with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> columnist, video host, and recipe developer Yewande Komolafe, author of the James Beard–nominated cookbook \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My Everyday Lagos\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In 2024, following a severe illness, Komolafe became a multiple amputee. Last year, she returned to the kitchen and her career as a food writer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d love to hear from you. How is the kitchen a refuge for you, and what recipe has comforted you during dark or difficult times?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yewande, before we go to a break, I have to ask: what does it feel like to have a recipe with ten thousand five-star reviews?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I told my editor yesterday that my brain does not compute that. When I write a recipe, it’s this instinct to create, to bring something to life in a tactile way. Once it leaves me, I don’t read the comments. I don’t read what people think. It feels like a liberation once the recipe leaves my body.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grace Won:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, as someone who always reads the comments on the cooking app, I can tell you—you’re considered a goddess of the kitchen.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yewande Komolafe:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That is a heavy crown to carry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"headline": "How Bruce Lee Helped Shape Asian American Culture",
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"bio": "\"Water Mirror Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America\" - Chang is also the author of \"We Gon' Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation,\" \"Who We Be: The Colorization of America\" and \"Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation\""
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
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},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5Nzk2MzI2MTEx",
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