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While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"205\" data-end=\"798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"205\" data-end=\"218\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"230\" data-end=\"237\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Michael Pollan, best known for his landmark books on food and eating like \u003cem data-start=\"327\" data-end=\"351\">The Omnivore’s Dilemma\u003c/em> and on psychedelics with 2018’s \u003cem data-start=\"384\" data-end=\"409\">How to Change Your Mind\u003c/em>, has delved into examining consciousness for his latest work — our subjective experience of the world. And if that sounds like a big and complicated undertaking, Pollan is the first to tell you that he underestimated what he’d gotten himself into — but also that it’s been valuable and fascinating and has convinced him, with the rise of AI, that human consciousness needs to be defended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"800\" data-end=\"1071\">Michael Pollan is also a contributing writer for \u003cem data-start=\"849\" data-end=\"878\">The New York Times Magazine\u003c/em>, a professor emeritus at the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, and cofounder of the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics. Hi, Michael. It’s great to have you on \u003cem data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1070\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1073\" data-end=\"1136\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1073\" data-end=\"1092\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Oh, thank you, Mina. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1138\" data-end=\"1258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1138\" data-end=\"1151\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it was your examination and experience of psychedelics that ignited your curiosity about consciousness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1670\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1279\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I’m not the first person who had a psychedelic experience that made them wonder about the nature of consciousness. Psychedelics have a way of kind of smudging the windshield through which we experience reality, and suddenly you realize, wow, there’s a windshield. What’s that about? And why is it the way it is? And could it be another way? And what’s on the other side of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1672\" data-end=\"2076\">So that was one inspiration. And then there was another one, also tied to psychedelics, of having an experience in my garden — this was on psilocybin — becoming convinced that the plants in my garden were conscious, that they were returning my gaze and had feelings toward me. Now, I didn’t automatically take that to be true, but it did make me wonder: How conscious are they? Are they conscious at all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2078\" data-end=\"2172\">So yeah, that’s what posed the questions that I’ve spent the last five years trying to answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2174\" data-end=\"2312\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2174\" data-end=\"2187\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the first questions was what consciousness is. The meaning is debated, but what did you land on in its simplest form?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2314\" data-end=\"2549\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2314\" data-end=\"2333\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Well, you mentioned it in your intro. I think subjective experience is a pretty good definition. You could even just say experience, since all experience is subjective. Another good one-word definition is awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2551\" data-end=\"2847\">And then there’s a slightly more complicated one. The philosopher Thomas Nagel, back in the early ’70s, wrote an incredible and very accessible essay called “What Is It Like to Be a Bat?” in which he argued that if it is like something — if it feels like something — to be you, you are conscious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2849\" data-end=\"3134\">You can see how a bat, even though they’re very different from us — they navigate the world through echolocation rather than in the visual way we do — we can at least say it must be like something to be a bat, and therefore a bat is conscious. I think that’s a handy way to look at it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3136\" data-end=\"3268\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3136\" data-end=\"3149\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what were the questions you wanted to answer about it, besides whether or not your plants were, in fact, conscious?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3270\" data-end=\"3325\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3270\" data-end=\"3289\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> I worked pretty hard on that one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3327\" data-end=\"3873\">I went into this learning about something called the hard problem. This is a phrase introduced by David Chalmers back in the ’90s. He was saying that the study of consciousness — which, by the way, is fairly new; it was considered a career killer to work on consciousness because it was so elusive until really the late ’80s, when Francis Crick, the great biologist who discovered, along with Watson and another collaborator, how heredity works — DNA, the double helix — said, “For my next trick, I’m going to get to the bottom of consciousness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3875\" data-end=\"4076\">The hard problem is this: How do you get from matter to mind? How do you get from these three pounds of neural tissue between your ears to subjective experience? That is a very difficult gulf to cross.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4492\">Another way to put it is that your brain is doing lots of different things all the time without your awareness. It regulates your blood pressure, blood gases, glucose levels, temperature, hunger — all these kinds of things — and they never cross the threshold of awareness. So why does anything? Why can’t it all be automated? Why do we have this space of interiority where we can make decisions and have feelings?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4494\" data-end=\"4720\">Nobody has answered those questions to anyone’s satisfaction, even though there are a bunch of theories out there — by one count 22, by another count 222 — which should tell you that the field is, to put it politely, flailing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4722\" data-end=\"4934\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4722\" data-end=\"4735\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Related to that, there’s literally no way of getting around our consciousness. The world in front of us is a product of our consciousness. So how can we actually step out of it to really examine it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"5280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4955\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The only tool we have with which to understand consciousness is consciousness itself. We have to realize that everything we perceive is the product of consciousness. But even the scientific enterprise is a manifestation of human consciousness — the problems we choose to work on, the tools we use to measure things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5495\">Science does not operate from a godlike perspective, as much as some scientists like to pretend it does. It is infused with us — with consciousness. So it’s kind of a labyrinth that we can’t ever fully get out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5840\">Now, that doesn’t mean we can’t figure things out about it. If you think of astronomy as another field that studies everything that exists, you’re studying that from inside everything. And astronomers still come up with very interesting measurements — rates of expansion of the universe, black holes, and so on. So there’s a lot you can learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5842\" data-end=\"6415\">But we have to keep in mind that there are real difficulties from a scientific point of view. We’ve organized science around the objective, third-person, quantifiable view of things, and we have not included subjectivity in the physical sciences. Going back to Galileo, he basically decided how science should be organized. He was doing this with one eye on the church, which was threatened by science. He said, we’ll leave subjective, qualitative things — matters of the soul, as they were understood then — to the church. And science will concentrate on objective things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6417\" data-end=\"6580\">That kept some scientists from being burned at the stake, but it also left science poorly positioned to explore subjectivity — which is what it’s now trying to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6582\" data-end=\"6678\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6582\" data-end=\"6595\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s a really good way to put it. Let me invite listeners into the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6680\" data-end=\"6907\">Listeners, how do you define consciousness? And what do you want to ask Michael about it? And if it helps, do you think plants or insects have consciousness? Why or why not? That helped me clarify what I think consciousness is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6909\" data-end=\"7057\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6923\" data-end=\"6937\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7059\" data-end=\"7303\">So with all the difficulties, Michael, what made it worth doing this investigation anyway? A lot of us probably carry on with life without ever contemplating that windshield between ourselves and reality. What good does it do to think about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7305\" data-end=\"7604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7305\" data-end=\"7324\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. The more I worked on it, the more urgent it became — not necessarily to understand how it came to be, which is very complicated and has interesting evolutionary explanations — but because I developed a growing sense that our consciousness is under siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7933\">We live in a world where corporations want to monetize your consciousness. When you submit yourself to the algorithms of social media, they’re hacking your attention. We know now that our attention is being bought and sold. But attention is just an element of consciousness — it’s how we direct it toward one object or another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7935\" data-end=\"8233\">Now we’re going a step further with artificial intelligence — more sophisticated algorithms that are not just hacking our attention, but hacking our ability to form emotional attachments with other people or other entities. That’s a huge step — allowing machines into the space of our mental lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8235\" data-end=\"8659\">I see consciousness as this private space of interiority where we have maximal freedom to think what we want. But increasingly, we’re thinking thoughts that are being planted there by others. And of course, we have a president who is a master at dominating our consciousness for ungodly amounts of time every day — at least in my case. Anyone who follows the news is probably devoting way too much headspace to Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8661\" data-end=\"8823\">There’s a sense in which our consciousness is being polluted right now, and we need to defend it because it is so precious. It is the space of our mental freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8825\" data-end=\"9015\">As time went on, especially with the rise of AI, I came to think this is not an idle sport. Trying to understand consciousness — and appreciate it — is necessary if we’re going to defend it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9017\" data-end=\"9225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9017\" data-end=\"9030\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re making me want to add another question for listeners: Do you think our consciousness needs defending? Do you think we can create a conscious AI — that a machine can achieve consciousness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9227\" data-end=\"9380\">Steven writes, “Michael’s comment that psychedelics smudge the windshield of consciousness does not resonate with me. For me, LSD cleans the windshield.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9382\" data-end=\"9733\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9382\" data-end=\"9401\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And Aldous Huxley thought the same thing, right? The doors of perception were cleansed, and he saw much more. I think that’s also true. There is a way in which we talk about psychedelics expanding consciousness. Huxley wrote about the reducing valve of consciousness opening wide on psychedelics. So I totally take his point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9735\" data-end=\"9914\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9735\" data-end=\"9748\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We are walking through the labyrinth of consciousness with Michael Pollan this hour, who’s written a new book called \u003cem data-start=\"9866\" data-end=\"9913\">A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9916\" data-end=\"10087\">Listeners, you can share your thoughts and questions at 866-733-6786 — that’s 866-733-6786 — by emailing \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10021\" data-end=\"10035\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or finding us on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10089\" data-end=\"10124\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, February 25 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>What is consciousness for, and why did it evolve? Can we change our “default” consciousness? These are some of the questions that Michael Pollan says began to preoccupy him after his first psychedelic experience, which altered his ordinary consciousness so profoundly that he wanted to learn everything he could about the mysteries of sentience, thought and selfhood. We talk to him about what he uncovered and challenges of studying a phenomenon that he says we’ll never understand completely. Pollan’s new book is “A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Pollan’s upcoming book events:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco, CA\u003cbr>\nMarch 4, 2026, 7:30 PM\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/HG5fCQWOVBTJg1PRfxfLIG0f8k?domain=cityarts.net\">City Arts & Lectures at Sydney Goldstein Theater\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Berkeley, CA\u003cbr>\nMarch 10, 2026, 7PM\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/BXXgCR6LWDuyoDWOiNhvI13NA5?domain=eventbrite.com\">Mrs. Dalloway’s at First Congregational Church of Berkeley\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Corte Madera, CA\u003cbr>\nApril 2, 2026, 7PM\u003cbr>\n\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/LyJkCVON1KCzmnyZSyiwIEy1_M?domain=bookpassage.com\">Book Passage at Dominican University of California\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"205\" data-end=\"798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"205\" data-end=\"218\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"230\" data-end=\"237\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Michael Pollan, best known for his landmark books on food and eating like \u003cem data-start=\"327\" data-end=\"351\">The Omnivore’s Dilemma\u003c/em> and on psychedelics with 2018’s \u003cem data-start=\"384\" data-end=\"409\">How to Change Your Mind\u003c/em>, has delved into examining consciousness for his latest work — our subjective experience of the world. And if that sounds like a big and complicated undertaking, Pollan is the first to tell you that he underestimated what he’d gotten himself into — but also that it’s been valuable and fascinating and has convinced him, with the rise of AI, that human consciousness needs to be defended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"800\" data-end=\"1071\">Michael Pollan is also a contributing writer for \u003cem data-start=\"849\" data-end=\"878\">The New York Times Magazine\u003c/em>, a professor emeritus at the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, and cofounder of the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics. Hi, Michael. It’s great to have you on \u003cem data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1070\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1073\" data-end=\"1136\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1073\" data-end=\"1092\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Oh, thank you, Mina. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1138\" data-end=\"1258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1138\" data-end=\"1151\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So it was your examination and experience of psychedelics that ignited your curiosity about consciousness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1670\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1279\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, I’m not the first person who had a psychedelic experience that made them wonder about the nature of consciousness. Psychedelics have a way of kind of smudging the windshield through which we experience reality, and suddenly you realize, wow, there’s a windshield. What’s that about? And why is it the way it is? And could it be another way? And what’s on the other side of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1672\" data-end=\"2076\">So that was one inspiration. And then there was another one, also tied to psychedelics, of having an experience in my garden — this was on psilocybin — becoming convinced that the plants in my garden were conscious, that they were returning my gaze and had feelings toward me. Now, I didn’t automatically take that to be true, but it did make me wonder: How conscious are they? Are they conscious at all?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2078\" data-end=\"2172\">So yeah, that’s what posed the questions that I’ve spent the last five years trying to answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2174\" data-end=\"2312\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2174\" data-end=\"2187\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the first questions was what consciousness is. The meaning is debated, but what did you land on in its simplest form?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2314\" data-end=\"2549\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2314\" data-end=\"2333\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Well, you mentioned it in your intro. I think subjective experience is a pretty good definition. You could even just say experience, since all experience is subjective. Another good one-word definition is awareness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2551\" data-end=\"2847\">And then there’s a slightly more complicated one. The philosopher Thomas Nagel, back in the early ’70s, wrote an incredible and very accessible essay called “What Is It Like to Be a Bat?” in which he argued that if it is like something — if it feels like something — to be you, you are conscious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2849\" data-end=\"3134\">You can see how a bat, even though they’re very different from us — they navigate the world through echolocation rather than in the visual way we do — we can at least say it must be like something to be a bat, and therefore a bat is conscious. I think that’s a handy way to look at it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3136\" data-end=\"3268\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3136\" data-end=\"3149\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what were the questions you wanted to answer about it, besides whether or not your plants were, in fact, conscious?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3270\" data-end=\"3325\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3270\" data-end=\"3289\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> I worked pretty hard on that one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3327\" data-end=\"3873\">I went into this learning about something called the hard problem. This is a phrase introduced by David Chalmers back in the ’90s. He was saying that the study of consciousness — which, by the way, is fairly new; it was considered a career killer to work on consciousness because it was so elusive until really the late ’80s, when Francis Crick, the great biologist who discovered, along with Watson and another collaborator, how heredity works — DNA, the double helix — said, “For my next trick, I’m going to get to the bottom of consciousness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3875\" data-end=\"4076\">The hard problem is this: How do you get from matter to mind? How do you get from these three pounds of neural tissue between your ears to subjective experience? That is a very difficult gulf to cross.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4492\">Another way to put it is that your brain is doing lots of different things all the time without your awareness. It regulates your blood pressure, blood gases, glucose levels, temperature, hunger — all these kinds of things — and they never cross the threshold of awareness. So why does anything? Why can’t it all be automated? Why do we have this space of interiority where we can make decisions and have feelings?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4494\" data-end=\"4720\">Nobody has answered those questions to anyone’s satisfaction, even though there are a bunch of theories out there — by one count 22, by another count 222 — which should tell you that the field is, to put it politely, flailing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4722\" data-end=\"4934\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4722\" data-end=\"4735\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Related to that, there’s literally no way of getting around our consciousness. The world in front of us is a product of our consciousness. So how can we actually step out of it to really examine it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"5280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4955\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The only tool we have with which to understand consciousness is consciousness itself. We have to realize that everything we perceive is the product of consciousness. But even the scientific enterprise is a manifestation of human consciousness — the problems we choose to work on, the tools we use to measure things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5495\">Science does not operate from a godlike perspective, as much as some scientists like to pretend it does. It is infused with us — with consciousness. So it’s kind of a labyrinth that we can’t ever fully get out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5497\" data-end=\"5840\">Now, that doesn’t mean we can’t figure things out about it. If you think of astronomy as another field that studies everything that exists, you’re studying that from inside everything. And astronomers still come up with very interesting measurements — rates of expansion of the universe, black holes, and so on. So there’s a lot you can learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5842\" data-end=\"6415\">But we have to keep in mind that there are real difficulties from a scientific point of view. We’ve organized science around the objective, third-person, quantifiable view of things, and we have not included subjectivity in the physical sciences. Going back to Galileo, he basically decided how science should be organized. He was doing this with one eye on the church, which was threatened by science. He said, we’ll leave subjective, qualitative things — matters of the soul, as they were understood then — to the church. And science will concentrate on objective things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6417\" data-end=\"6580\">That kept some scientists from being burned at the stake, but it also left science poorly positioned to explore subjectivity — which is what it’s now trying to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6582\" data-end=\"6678\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6582\" data-end=\"6595\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> That’s a really good way to put it. Let me invite listeners into the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6680\" data-end=\"6907\">Listeners, how do you define consciousness? And what do you want to ask Michael about it? And if it helps, do you think plants or insects have consciousness? Why or why not? That helped me clarify what I think consciousness is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6909\" data-end=\"7057\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6923\" data-end=\"6937\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7059\" data-end=\"7303\">So with all the difficulties, Michael, what made it worth doing this investigation anyway? A lot of us probably carry on with life without ever contemplating that windshield between ourselves and reality. What good does it do to think about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7305\" data-end=\"7604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7305\" data-end=\"7324\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. The more I worked on it, the more urgent it became — not necessarily to understand how it came to be, which is very complicated and has interesting evolutionary explanations — but because I developed a growing sense that our consciousness is under siege.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7606\" data-end=\"7933\">We live in a world where corporations want to monetize your consciousness. When you submit yourself to the algorithms of social media, they’re hacking your attention. We know now that our attention is being bought and sold. But attention is just an element of consciousness — it’s how we direct it toward one object or another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7935\" data-end=\"8233\">Now we’re going a step further with artificial intelligence — more sophisticated algorithms that are not just hacking our attention, but hacking our ability to form emotional attachments with other people or other entities. That’s a huge step — allowing machines into the space of our mental lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8235\" data-end=\"8659\">I see consciousness as this private space of interiority where we have maximal freedom to think what we want. But increasingly, we’re thinking thoughts that are being planted there by others. And of course, we have a president who is a master at dominating our consciousness for ungodly amounts of time every day — at least in my case. Anyone who follows the news is probably devoting way too much headspace to Donald Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8661\" data-end=\"8823\">There’s a sense in which our consciousness is being polluted right now, and we need to defend it because it is so precious. It is the space of our mental freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8825\" data-end=\"9015\">As time went on, especially with the rise of AI, I came to think this is not an idle sport. Trying to understand consciousness — and appreciate it — is necessary if we’re going to defend it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9017\" data-end=\"9225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9017\" data-end=\"9030\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re making me want to add another question for listeners: Do you think our consciousness needs defending? Do you think we can create a conscious AI — that a machine can achieve consciousness?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9227\" data-end=\"9380\">Steven writes, “Michael’s comment that psychedelics smudge the windshield of consciousness does not resonate with me. For me, LSD cleans the windshield.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9382\" data-end=\"9733\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9382\" data-end=\"9401\">Michael Pollan:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And Aldous Huxley thought the same thing, right? The doors of perception were cleansed, and he saw much more. I think that’s also true. There is a way in which we talk about psychedelics expanding consciousness. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"onourwatch": {
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
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