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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forced arbitration clauses are buried in everything from product warranties to bank loans to employment contracts, often requiring consumers and workers to give up their right to sue without realizing it. Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor and co-founder of the Public Integrity Project, says arbitration has become an opaque, parallel legal system that favors corporations and undermines the rule of law. We’ll talk to Ballou about new book, “When Companies Run the Courts,” which looks at why forced arbitration has become so widespread and what states like California are doing to restrict it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. If you’ve signed up for a credit card, the warranty on a product, or accepted a job, you’ve likely agreed at some point to arbitration to settle any disputes rather than go through the courts. Forced arbitration promises to be a faster, easier way to reach resolution, but it’s a process that Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor, says is too often biased in favor of corporations. In this system, decisions are hidden from the public and cannot be appealed, he writes. Judges decide their own powers and are often paid for by the companies they’re supposed to judge. Ballou’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts. Listeners, do you think forced arbitration is flawed? What’s been your experience? Brendan, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, you said forced arbitration touches virtually every part of our lives. How often are we being asked to agree to arbitration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, the most recent studies say that there are more forced arbitration agreements than there are American citizens, and I think that probably dramatically understates the number of agreements. So about eighty percent of Fortune 500 companies use forced arbitration either with their consumers or employees. At least sixty million private sector workers are bound by forced arbitration. And if you just sort of think anecdotally about your own life, all the little click-to-accept agreements that you have when you buy a new product online or even visit a website — overwhelmingly, I would say those agreements increasingly have forced arbitration terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so, basically, the overall effect is that it’s just much harder to bring a case to court against a company that has this. Right? That it was, you know, something that we had the right to do maybe a few generations ago more frequently than we do now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I think to the extent that people feel that companies are increasingly beyond the reach of the law, it’s because they literally are, and forced arbitration is the explanation. So, you know, just to set a baseline here — when we’re talking about forced arbitration, and you teed this up very, very clearly — we’re talking about a private alternative to the traditional justice system. So instead of having a judge, you have what’s called a private arbitrator decide the case. But importantly, that decision is binding, and yet the decision-making process, the proceedings, are in secret. As you say, they can’t be appealed. And I think most importantly — and I think this kind of gets to the heart of why the system so often fails — is the arbitrator is often paid for by the company getting sued. And so they have a natural incentive to rule for the party that is effectively their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So to help us understand these features of forced arbitration in a real-life example, you tell the story of the Piccolos. Can you explain what happened to them when they visited Walt Disney World?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the Piccolos were a couple that, as you said, wanted to go to Walt Disney World. Jeffrey Piccolo’s wife, Kanokporn Tangsuan, had severe allergies, and so they had to be very careful about where they were going to eat. They went to this sort of faux Irish pub and, at least according to their subsequent allegations, were very careful about what they ordered. They repeatedly asked the wait staff for assurances that the food would be allergen-free. They were repeatedly assured that it would be. Very tragically, it was not. And Tangsuan died of anaphylactic shock shortly thereafter. The problem for Jeffrey Piccolo was that when he tried to sue for wrongful death, Disney actually moved to compel Piccolo into arbitration — among other reasons because he had signed an arbitration agreement as part of his Disney+ account several years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So wait a second. He signed up for a streaming service and by doing so gave up the right to ever bring Disney to court if they went to a theme park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And increasingly, companies have been arguing — and arguing successfully — that arbitration agreements in seemingly unrelated contracts can nevertheless bind you. You know, you have stories about a woman who was allegedly racially discriminated against at a Walmart, forced into arbitration because she had signed up for their gig delivery service several months or several years prior. You have an example of a father who had to arbitrate the wrongful death of his son, who was murdered at an Airbnb, because he himself had an Airbnb contract. So, you know, there are all sorts of agreements that we’re signing every day that may bind us in ways that we might not even expect or foresee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about forced arbitration, and what are your reactions to the stories that you’re hearing? Have you ever been forced into arbitration? What was that process like for you? Or maybe you’re an arbitrator or have represented clients in arbitration — what would you like to tell us? You can email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, or by calling 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So, Brendan, this is often how people find out that they agreed to forced arbitration, right — when they have a moment where they do want to make a complaint or try to sue a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And I think we don’t really realize the extent to which we’re signing away our rights, because it’s not just that you have to pursue arbitration and can’t go into court. Very often, these agreements require that you go to arbitration individually. And the reason that that matters is it effectively kills class actions — the cases that you bring when hundreds or thousands or millions of people are harmed in the same way. When you have to bring your case in arbitration individually, it makes it economically unaffordable to pursue justice for all but the most serious or deadly harms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there a good reason to create more obstacles to class action lawsuits? You know, we hear about how state courts can be overloaded by these things in some places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that has been a sort of meme in American consciousness for several decades — this idea of a litigation explosion that’s burdening courts and companies that we’re ultimately footing the bill for. Whether or not that is true, I think it’s important for your listeners to understand that millions of dollars have been spent to get you to have that belief. And in fact, the most thorough studies that we’ve got on the supposed litigation explosion that precipitated this attack on class actions suggest that the litigation explosion may never have occurred, or didn’t occur the way that we thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So there was a great study, from, I believe, 1978 to 1984, which was sort of the key moment when cases supposedly took off. It turns out that the growth in cases — and there was a growth in cases — was actually driven in large part not by people suing companies, but by the government suing people. There was a renewed emphasis on suing Social Security beneficiaries and veterans to try to claw back their various benefits. The explosion, such as it occurred for companies, was actually just limited to asbestos litigation. And in fact, the kinds of cases that companies normally care about — securities cases, antitrust cases, and so forth — actually declined over that period of time. So, you know, there has been this long-standing argument that because of this growth in litigation, we need to pare back or destroy class actions. I’m not sure the history really backs that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was asking you earlier about how people often find out that they’ve agreed to forced arbitration. Can you put some fault on the person for not reading the terms of service? Like, how hard is it to often find that you are agreeing to this in terms of service agreements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s hard, and unfortunately the Supreme Court has made it harder. The Montana legislature back in the nineties passed a law that said that if you’re going to have a forced arbitration agreement in your contract, you have to say so on the first page of the agreement. The Supreme Court actually invalidated that law and, somewhat ironically, said that it discriminated against arbitration agreements for doing that. So, you know, oftentimes these agreements are really buried in contracts, and courts have made it so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So walk us through, in the Piccolos’ case, what is different about resolving a case like this in arbitration as opposed to in a courtroom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, when you think about the features of a courtroom — or the rule of law more generally — they’re so fundamental that oftentimes they don’t even really occur to you. And one of the most important is that proceedings happen by and large in public. That makes sure that the proceedings are fair, that they’re like other proceedings, that there aren’t hidden side deals. And importantly, when a judge makes a mistake, that judge’s opinion can generally be appealed to somebody else to try to correct that error.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">None of those things necessarily happen in forced arbitration. Proceedings are in secret. Decisions are not public — oftentimes they’re not even shared. And it’s actually harder to appeal the decision of a private arbitrator than it is to appeal the decision of a judge. And I think all of this goes to the core of the rule of law. If there is a core to the rule of law, it’s that similar cases are treated similarly. And when you have law developing in isolation and in secret, people can’t draw on the decisions of past cases. You really sort of lose the core of what the rule of law is, and decisions become increasingly arbitrary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what about the process itself? Like, can you bring evidence? What is the procedure like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s a great question. The answer — and it’s a very standard lawyer answer — is it depends. There’s a huge variation across arbitration companies, the companies that actually provide arbitration, and the kinds of cases, about what somebody can get. Can you file procedural motions? Can you get discovery? Can you do depositions? In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. And importantly, it’s private companies that provide arbitrators, and those companies have to get business themselves. So oftentimes, they will have to evolve or change their rules so that they are going to be able to get large corporate business. And in fact, you have some extreme examples — for instance, of a gig company working with a smaller, less reputable arbitration provider to literally write the rules of the arbitration process together, and then forcing all of their gig users onto that arbitration platform.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you’re saying that the company can pick the arbitrator and is sometimes even paying for that particular arbitration company. I mean, you give us an extreme example here with Google as well. But basically, what you’re describing sounds like a really intense conflict of interest. Is that something that has to be disclosed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> No. Not necessarily. And I’ll say, as a practicing lawyer, I have appeared in front of arbitrators representing clients. And by and large, overwhelmingly, the arbitrators that I’ve appeared in front of are trying to do the right thing. But the natural economic incentives of how arbitration works naturally incline arbitrators towards a certain direction. And you see it in the statistics — overwhelmingly, consumers and employees lose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Brendan Ballou about forced arbitration and how forced arbitration clauses appear in everything from employment contracts to credit card terms, and the impacts they can have on workers and consumers — and also how an arbitration procedure can be carried out. Listeners, you can share your questions at 866-733-6786, on our social channels — Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> — or by emailing \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Brendan’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts: How Forced Arbitration Became America’s Secret Justice System. More with him and with you after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forced arbitration clauses are buried in everything from product warranties to bank loans to employment contracts, often requiring consumers and workers to give up their right to sue without realizing it. Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor and co-founder of the Public Integrity Project, says arbitration has become an opaque, parallel legal system that favors corporations and undermines the rule of law. We’ll talk to Ballou about new book, “When Companies Run the Courts,” which looks at why forced arbitration has become so widespread and what states like California are doing to restrict it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. If you’ve signed up for a credit card, the warranty on a product, or accepted a job, you’ve likely agreed at some point to arbitration to settle any disputes rather than go through the courts. Forced arbitration promises to be a faster, easier way to reach resolution, but it’s a process that Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor, says is too often biased in favor of corporations. In this system, decisions are hidden from the public and cannot be appealed, he writes. Judges decide their own powers and are often paid for by the companies they’re supposed to judge. Ballou’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts. Listeners, do you think forced arbitration is flawed? What’s been your experience? Brendan, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, you said forced arbitration touches virtually every part of our lives. How often are we being asked to agree to arbitration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, the most recent studies say that there are more forced arbitration agreements than there are American citizens, and I think that probably dramatically understates the number of agreements. So about eighty percent of Fortune 500 companies use forced arbitration either with their consumers or employees. At least sixty million private sector workers are bound by forced arbitration. And if you just sort of think anecdotally about your own life, all the little click-to-accept agreements that you have when you buy a new product online or even visit a website — overwhelmingly, I would say those agreements increasingly have forced arbitration terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so, basically, the overall effect is that it’s just much harder to bring a case to court against a company that has this. Right? That it was, you know, something that we had the right to do maybe a few generations ago more frequently than we do now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I think to the extent that people feel that companies are increasingly beyond the reach of the law, it’s because they literally are, and forced arbitration is the explanation. So, you know, just to set a baseline here — when we’re talking about forced arbitration, and you teed this up very, very clearly — we’re talking about a private alternative to the traditional justice system. So instead of having a judge, you have what’s called a private arbitrator decide the case. But importantly, that decision is binding, and yet the decision-making process, the proceedings, are in secret. As you say, they can’t be appealed. And I think most importantly — and I think this kind of gets to the heart of why the system so often fails — is the arbitrator is often paid for by the company getting sued. And so they have a natural incentive to rule for the party that is effectively their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So to help us understand these features of forced arbitration in a real-life example, you tell the story of the Piccolos. Can you explain what happened to them when they visited Walt Disney World?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the Piccolos were a couple that, as you said, wanted to go to Walt Disney World. Jeffrey Piccolo’s wife, Kanokporn Tangsuan, had severe allergies, and so they had to be very careful about where they were going to eat. They went to this sort of faux Irish pub and, at least according to their subsequent allegations, were very careful about what they ordered. They repeatedly asked the wait staff for assurances that the food would be allergen-free. They were repeatedly assured that it would be. Very tragically, it was not. And Tangsuan died of anaphylactic shock shortly thereafter. The problem for Jeffrey Piccolo was that when he tried to sue for wrongful death, Disney actually moved to compel Piccolo into arbitration — among other reasons because he had signed an arbitration agreement as part of his Disney+ account several years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So wait a second. He signed up for a streaming service and by doing so gave up the right to ever bring Disney to court if they went to a theme park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And increasingly, companies have been arguing — and arguing successfully — that arbitration agreements in seemingly unrelated contracts can nevertheless bind you. You know, you have stories about a woman who was allegedly racially discriminated against at a Walmart, forced into arbitration because she had signed up for their gig delivery service several months or several years prior. You have an example of a father who had to arbitrate the wrongful death of his son, who was murdered at an Airbnb, because he himself had an Airbnb contract. So, you know, there are all sorts of agreements that we’re signing every day that may bind us in ways that we might not even expect or foresee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about forced arbitration, and what are your reactions to the stories that you’re hearing? Have you ever been forced into arbitration? What was that process like for you? Or maybe you’re an arbitrator or have represented clients in arbitration — what would you like to tell us? You can email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, or by calling 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So, Brendan, this is often how people find out that they agreed to forced arbitration, right — when they have a moment where they do want to make a complaint or try to sue a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And I think we don’t really realize the extent to which we’re signing away our rights, because it’s not just that you have to pursue arbitration and can’t go into court. Very often, these agreements require that you go to arbitration individually. And the reason that that matters is it effectively kills class actions — the cases that you bring when hundreds or thousands or millions of people are harmed in the same way. When you have to bring your case in arbitration individually, it makes it economically unaffordable to pursue justice for all but the most serious or deadly harms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there a good reason to create more obstacles to class action lawsuits? You know, we hear about how state courts can be overloaded by these things in some places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that has been a sort of meme in American consciousness for several decades — this idea of a litigation explosion that’s burdening courts and companies that we’re ultimately footing the bill for. Whether or not that is true, I think it’s important for your listeners to understand that millions of dollars have been spent to get you to have that belief. And in fact, the most thorough studies that we’ve got on the supposed litigation explosion that precipitated this attack on class actions suggest that the litigation explosion may never have occurred, or didn’t occur the way that we thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So there was a great study, from, I believe, 1978 to 1984, which was sort of the key moment when cases supposedly took off. It turns out that the growth in cases — and there was a growth in cases — was actually driven in large part not by people suing companies, but by the government suing people. There was a renewed emphasis on suing Social Security beneficiaries and veterans to try to claw back their various benefits. The explosion, such as it occurred for companies, was actually just limited to asbestos litigation. And in fact, the kinds of cases that companies normally care about — securities cases, antitrust cases, and so forth — actually declined over that period of time. So, you know, there has been this long-standing argument that because of this growth in litigation, we need to pare back or destroy class actions. I’m not sure the history really backs that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was asking you earlier about how people often find out that they’ve agreed to forced arbitration. Can you put some fault on the person for not reading the terms of service? Like, how hard is it to often find that you are agreeing to this in terms of service agreements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s hard, and unfortunately the Supreme Court has made it harder. The Montana legislature back in the nineties passed a law that said that if you’re going to have a forced arbitration agreement in your contract, you have to say so on the first page of the agreement. The Supreme Court actually invalidated that law and, somewhat ironically, said that it discriminated against arbitration agreements for doing that. So, you know, oftentimes these agreements are really buried in contracts, and courts have made it so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So walk us through, in the Piccolos’ case, what is different about resolving a case like this in arbitration as opposed to in a courtroom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, when you think about the features of a courtroom — or the rule of law more generally — they’re so fundamental that oftentimes they don’t even really occur to you. And one of the most important is that proceedings happen by and large in public. That makes sure that the proceedings are fair, that they’re like other proceedings, that there aren’t hidden side deals. And importantly, when a judge makes a mistake, that judge’s opinion can generally be appealed to somebody else to try to correct that error.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">None of those things necessarily happen in forced arbitration. Proceedings are in secret. Decisions are not public — oftentimes they’re not even shared. And it’s actually harder to appeal the decision of a private arbitrator than it is to appeal the decision of a judge. And I think all of this goes to the core of the rule of law. If there is a core to the rule of law, it’s that similar cases are treated similarly. And when you have law developing in isolation and in secret, people can’t draw on the decisions of past cases. You really sort of lose the core of what the rule of law is, and decisions become increasingly arbitrary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what about the process itself? Like, can you bring evidence? What is the procedure like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s a great question. The answer — and it’s a very standard lawyer answer — is it depends. There’s a huge variation across arbitration companies, the companies that actually provide arbitration, and the kinds of cases, about what somebody can get. Can you file procedural motions? Can you get discovery? Can you do depositions? In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. And importantly, it’s private companies that provide arbitrators, and those companies have to get business themselves. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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},
"radiolab": {
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"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
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