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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recent court decisions make more people vulnerable to ICE detention, the Trump administration is purchasing massive warehouses that could detain upward of 5,000 people per site. Lawmakers and detainees describe existing ICE detention centers as grossly inadequate, with accounts of denied medical care, cruelty from guards and limited access to sunlight. Most immigrants detained by ICE have not committed a crime yet can be held for months or years. Now, resistance to these detention centers is growing nationwide – including in deeply red counties – and California activists and lawmakers are trying to prohibit ICE’s expansion here. We’ll hear about the legal landscape and answer your questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. California is home to seven ICE detention facilities run by private prison companies, and the Department of Homeland Security is eyeing the state — among many others — for a planned massive increase in detention capacity after getting a boost from federal courts. Already, DHS has bought several industrial warehouse sites across the country and proposed many more. But local pushback — over concerns about strain on resources, conditions at existing ICE detention centers, and anti-ICE protests — is complicating those efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"578\" data-end=\"700\">Joining me for a closer look is Wendy Fry, a CalMatters reporter based in San Diego and Mexico. Wendy, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"692\" data-end=\"699\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"702\" data-end=\"740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"702\" data-end=\"716\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"742\" data-end=\"926\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"742\" data-end=\"755\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Paint a picture for us of what’s been happening nationally with ICE’s efforts to buy these large industrial warehouses and turn them into detention centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"928\" data-end=\"1155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"928\" data-end=\"942\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Sure. ICE received a huge $45 billion funding influx. That’s essentially the equivalent of one year of its budget — multiplied by four, five, or six. So it’s like getting five or six years of funding all at once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1157\" data-end=\"1600\">What we’ve seen is ICE quietly buying warehouse space across the country. In California, it looks a little different. Here, they’re leasing properties adjacent to places where they already have hubs of detention activity. For example, B-18 — the basement of the Los Angeles Federal Courthouse — or office space next to the Schwartz Building, the federal courthouse in San Diego, where they already detain people who show up for court hearings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1602\" data-end=\"1834\">They’re also eyeing spaces in Irvine, Sacramento, and Santa Ana. These aren’t meant to be long-term detention facilities like Adelanto, California City, or Otay Mesa. They’re intended to be fast-track deportation processing centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1836\" data-end=\"2115\">But advocates are concerned — first, about conditions inside larger detention facilities, and second, about using warehouses and office space that weren’t designed to house people, provide medical care, food, water, or sleeping areas. That’s not what those spaces were built for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2117\" data-end=\"2267\">On the federal side, DHS says there’s an urgent need for space to fulfill former President Trump’s campaign promise to deport a million people a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2597\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2282\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> As you say, in California at least, they’re looking at these sites mainly as holding and processing centers. But they’ve faced complaints, just like the larger detention centers. And you mentioned they’re being quiet about it. Is that because when people learn about a proposed facility, it tends to draw pushback?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2599\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2599\" data-end=\"2613\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. There’s a huge amount of resistance in California. There are also state and local laws and regulations in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2996\">In California, public officials are required to give 30 days’ notice before an ICE facility opens. ICE bypassed that requirement in California City and went ahead and opened anyway. That’s part of a lawsuit detainees have brought against that facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3164\">There are more regulations in California that can slow the process down. But with this large amount of funding, ICE has been able to overcome some of that resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3166\" data-end=\"3472\">They’ve also eyed the shuttered federal prison in Dublin. That’s a former correctional facility, which raises another tension. According to ICE, immigration detention is not supposed to be punitive. It’s meant only to hold people to ensure they show up for hearings or leave the country if ordered removed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3474\" data-end=\"3677\">But when you use former prisons — like California City, which was a state prison built for overcrowding — and staff them with correctional officers, it feels like prison. To detainees, it feels punitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3865\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3692\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> DHS has said it has no plans to pursue the vacant Dublin women’s prison, but some people are skeptical — especially if a private company could buy it and contract with ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3867\" data-end=\"4002\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3867\" data-end=\"3881\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Right. That’s how it worked in California City. CoreCivic obtained a contract with ICE to open and operate the facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4004\" data-end=\"4184\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4004\" data-end=\"4017\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in California State Assemblymember Matt Haney, who represents the eastern portion of San Francisco. Assemblymember Haney, thank you for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4186\" data-end=\"4240\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4186\" data-end=\"4201\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4242\" data-end=\"4370\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4242\" data-end=\"4255\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I understand you want to deter private corporations from running detention centers for ICE. How would you do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4372\" data-end=\"4668\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4372\" data-end=\"4387\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> There are seven of these facilities currently operating in California, and they’re growing rapidly. Nearly 7,000 people are detained in these facilities today. They’re run by private, for-profit corporations — mostly CoreCivic, based in Tennessee, and GEO Group, based in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4670\" data-end=\"4902\">It’s clear they plan to expand further in California. Private detention in our state operates much like prisons, but with less accountability and transparency. These facilities have been characterized by serious human rights abuses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4904\" data-end=\"5149\">California previously tried to ban these types of facilities, but judges ruled we couldn’t do that in the case of immigration detention. However, these are private companies making billions in our state off human suffering and family separation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5397\">What we can do is tax them. We’ve introduced AB 1633, which would impose a 50% gross receipts tax on private companies operating these detention facilities. They can either pay into the harm they’re causing, or they can choose to leave the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5399\" data-end=\"5545\">Even if we can’t prohibit them from operating here, we can impose a tax that reflects the social, human, and public health costs they’re creating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5547\" data-end=\"5667\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5547\" data-end=\"5560\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re saying they’re making billions. Revenue from this tax would go toward immigration-related services?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5669\" data-end=\"5832\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5669\" data-end=\"5684\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Yes. The funds would go to the Due Process for All Fund, which supports immigration-related services connected to the harms these facilities cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5834\" data-end=\"6013\">We have the legal right and responsibility to tax companies operating in our state. If we could ban them, we should. But since federal law preempts that, we can at least tax them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6015\" data-end=\"6151\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6015\" data-end=\"6028\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re confident your bill wouldn’t face the same legal fate as the previous attempt to ban immigration detention centers?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6153\" data-end=\"6327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6153\" data-end=\"6168\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> I am confident. We have the authority to tax private, for-profit companies operating here. This tax is narrowly tailored to address the harms they’re causing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6329\" data-end=\"6500\">These facilities are characterized by substandard medical care, abuse, neglect, health and safety violations, and little transparency. We have a responsibility to respond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6502\" data-end=\"6629\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6502\" data-end=\"6515\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about unintended consequences? Could a tax cause conditions inside detention centers to deteriorate further?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6631\" data-end=\"6821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6631\" data-end=\"6646\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> These companies are generating billions of dollars in profits nationwide. ICE plans to dramatically expand detention, including targeting people who haven’t committed crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6823\" data-end=\"7010\">They’re relying on these for-profit corporations rather than operating facilities themselves. They already have space to detain people short-term. What they want is large-scale expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7012\" data-end=\"7220\">If we don’t intervene, they’ll continue expanding — doubling the number of detained individuals in the last year alone. That imposes huge costs on our communities. This bill would help prevent that expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7222\" data-end=\"7308\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7222\" data-end=\"7235\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> San Francisco Assemblymember Matt Haney, thank you for speaking with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7310\" data-end=\"7336\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7310\" data-end=\"7325\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7483\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7351\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wendy, by how much does ICE want to expand detention capacity? There are already around 73,000 people detained nationwide, correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7485\" data-end=\"7600\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7485\" data-end=\"7499\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> That’s right. According to DHS documents, ICE wants the capacity to detain 100,000 people at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7602\" data-end=\"7850\">At the beginning of the second Trump administration, about 40,000 people were detained nationwide. Now it’s roughly 73,000 — a 75% increase. The number fluctuates daily as deportation flights occur. ICE wants to increase capacity by another 30,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"8034\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"7865\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the Trump administration’s expansion of immigration detention capacity — including the purchase of warehouses and potential new sites in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8036\" data-end=\"8257\">Listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you or someone you know been detained by ICE? How do you feel about California being considered for more detention centers? What questions do you have about this expansion effort?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8259\" data-end=\"8405\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8265\" data-end=\"8279\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. Or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8407\" data-end=\"8483\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll have more with Wendy Fry and your calls after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Airdate: Wednesday, March 4 at 10 AM As recent court decisions make more people vulnerable to ICE detention, the Trump administration is purchasing massive warehouses that could detain upward of 5,000 people per site. Lawmakers and detainees describe existing ICE detention centers as grossly inadequate, with accounts of denied medical care, cruelty from guards and limited access to sunlight. Most immigrants detained by ICE have not committed a crime yet can be held for months or years. Now, resistance to these detention centers is growing nationwide – including in deeply red counties – and California activists and lawmakers are trying",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 4 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recent court decisions make more people vulnerable to ICE detention, the Trump administration is purchasing massive warehouses that could detain upward of 5,000 people per site. Lawmakers and detainees describe existing ICE detention centers as grossly inadequate, with accounts of denied medical care, cruelty from guards and limited access to sunlight. Most immigrants detained by ICE have not committed a crime yet can be held for months or years. Now, resistance to these detention centers is growing nationwide – including in deeply red counties – and California activists and lawmakers are trying to prohibit ICE’s expansion here. We’ll hear about the legal landscape and answer your questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. California is home to seven ICE detention facilities run by private prison companies, and the Department of Homeland Security is eyeing the state — among many others — for a planned massive increase in detention capacity after getting a boost from federal courts. Already, DHS has bought several industrial warehouse sites across the country and proposed many more. But local pushback — over concerns about strain on resources, conditions at existing ICE detention centers, and anti-ICE protests — is complicating those efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"578\" data-end=\"700\">Joining me for a closer look is Wendy Fry, a CalMatters reporter based in San Diego and Mexico. Wendy, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"692\" data-end=\"699\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"702\" data-end=\"740\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"702\" data-end=\"716\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"742\" data-end=\"926\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"742\" data-end=\"755\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Good morning. Paint a picture for us of what’s been happening nationally with ICE’s efforts to buy these large industrial warehouses and turn them into detention centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"928\" data-end=\"1155\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"928\" data-end=\"942\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Sure. ICE received a huge $45 billion funding influx. That’s essentially the equivalent of one year of its budget — multiplied by four, five, or six. So it’s like getting five or six years of funding all at once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1157\" data-end=\"1600\">What we’ve seen is ICE quietly buying warehouse space across the country. In California, it looks a little different. Here, they’re leasing properties adjacent to places where they already have hubs of detention activity. For example, B-18 — the basement of the Los Angeles Federal Courthouse — or office space next to the Schwartz Building, the federal courthouse in San Diego, where they already detain people who show up for court hearings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1602\" data-end=\"1834\">They’re also eyeing spaces in Irvine, Sacramento, and Santa Ana. These aren’t meant to be long-term detention facilities like Adelanto, California City, or Otay Mesa. They’re intended to be fast-track deportation processing centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1836\" data-end=\"2115\">But advocates are concerned — first, about conditions inside larger detention facilities, and second, about using warehouses and office space that weren’t designed to house people, provide medical care, food, water, or sleeping areas. That’s not what those spaces were built for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2117\" data-end=\"2267\">On the federal side, DHS says there’s an urgent need for space to fulfill former President Trump’s campaign promise to deport a million people a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2597\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2269\" data-end=\"2282\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> As you say, in California at least, they’re looking at these sites mainly as holding and processing centers. But they’ve faced complaints, just like the larger detention centers. And you mentioned they’re being quiet about it. Is that because when people learn about a proposed facility, it tends to draw pushback?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2599\" data-end=\"2742\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2599\" data-end=\"2613\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Yes, absolutely. There’s a huge amount of resistance in California. There are also state and local laws and regulations in play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2744\" data-end=\"2996\">In California, public officials are required to give 30 days’ notice before an ICE facility opens. ICE bypassed that requirement in California City and went ahead and opened anyway. That’s part of a lawsuit detainees have brought against that facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3164\">There are more regulations in California that can slow the process down. But with this large amount of funding, ICE has been able to overcome some of that resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3166\" data-end=\"3472\">They’ve also eyed the shuttered federal prison in Dublin. That’s a former correctional facility, which raises another tension. According to ICE, immigration detention is not supposed to be punitive. It’s meant only to hold people to ensure they show up for hearings or leave the country if ordered removed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3474\" data-end=\"3677\">But when you use former prisons — like California City, which was a state prison built for overcrowding — and staff them with correctional officers, it feels like prison. To detainees, it feels punitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3865\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3692\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> DHS has said it has no plans to pursue the vacant Dublin women’s prison, but some people are skeptical — especially if a private company could buy it and contract with ICE.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3867\" data-end=\"4002\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3867\" data-end=\"3881\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> Right. That’s how it worked in California City. CoreCivic obtained a contract with ICE to open and operate the facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4004\" data-end=\"4184\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4004\" data-end=\"4017\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to bring in California State Assemblymember Matt Haney, who represents the eastern portion of San Francisco. Assemblymember Haney, thank you for being with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4186\" data-end=\"4240\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4186\" data-end=\"4201\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4242\" data-end=\"4370\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4242\" data-end=\"4255\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I understand you want to deter private corporations from running detention centers for ICE. How would you do that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4372\" data-end=\"4668\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4372\" data-end=\"4387\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> There are seven of these facilities currently operating in California, and they’re growing rapidly. Nearly 7,000 people are detained in these facilities today. They’re run by private, for-profit corporations — mostly CoreCivic, based in Tennessee, and GEO Group, based in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4670\" data-end=\"4902\">It’s clear they plan to expand further in California. Private detention in our state operates much like prisons, but with less accountability and transparency. These facilities have been characterized by serious human rights abuses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4904\" data-end=\"5149\">California previously tried to ban these types of facilities, but judges ruled we couldn’t do that in the case of immigration detention. However, these are private companies making billions in our state off human suffering and family separation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5397\">What we can do is tax them. We’ve introduced AB 1633, which would impose a 50% gross receipts tax on private companies operating these detention facilities. They can either pay into the harm they’re causing, or they can choose to leave the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5399\" data-end=\"5545\">Even if we can’t prohibit them from operating here, we can impose a tax that reflects the social, human, and public health costs they’re creating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5547\" data-end=\"5667\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5547\" data-end=\"5560\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re saying they’re making billions. Revenue from this tax would go toward immigration-related services?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5669\" data-end=\"5832\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5669\" data-end=\"5684\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Yes. The funds would go to the Due Process for All Fund, which supports immigration-related services connected to the harms these facilities cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5834\" data-end=\"6013\">We have the legal right and responsibility to tax companies operating in our state. If we could ban them, we should. But since federal law preempts that, we can at least tax them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6015\" data-end=\"6151\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6015\" data-end=\"6028\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re confident your bill wouldn’t face the same legal fate as the previous attempt to ban immigration detention centers?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6153\" data-end=\"6327\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6153\" data-end=\"6168\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> I am confident. We have the authority to tax private, for-profit companies operating here. This tax is narrowly tailored to address the harms they’re causing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6329\" data-end=\"6500\">These facilities are characterized by substandard medical care, abuse, neglect, health and safety violations, and little transparency. We have a responsibility to respond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6502\" data-end=\"6629\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6502\" data-end=\"6515\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What about unintended consequences? Could a tax cause conditions inside detention centers to deteriorate further?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6631\" data-end=\"6821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6631\" data-end=\"6646\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> These companies are generating billions of dollars in profits nationwide. ICE plans to dramatically expand detention, including targeting people who haven’t committed crimes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6823\" data-end=\"7010\">They’re relying on these for-profit corporations rather than operating facilities themselves. They already have space to detain people short-term. What they want is large-scale expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7012\" data-end=\"7220\">If we don’t intervene, they’ll continue expanding — doubling the number of detained individuals in the last year alone. That imposes huge costs on our communities. This bill would help prevent that expansion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7222\" data-end=\"7308\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7222\" data-end=\"7235\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> San Francisco Assemblymember Matt Haney, thank you for speaking with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7310\" data-end=\"7336\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7310\" data-end=\"7325\">Matt Haney:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7483\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7338\" data-end=\"7351\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wendy, by how much does ICE want to expand detention capacity? There are already around 73,000 people detained nationwide, correct?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7485\" data-end=\"7600\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7485\" data-end=\"7499\">Wendy Fry:\u003c/strong> That’s right. According to DHS documents, ICE wants the capacity to detain 100,000 people at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7602\" data-end=\"7850\">At the beginning of the second Trump administration, about 40,000 people were detained nationwide. Now it’s roughly 73,000 — a 75% increase. The number fluctuates daily as deportation flights occur. ICE wants to increase capacity by another 30,000.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"8034\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"7865\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the Trump administration’s expansion of immigration detention capacity — including the purchase of warehouses and potential new sites in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8036\" data-end=\"8257\">Listeners, we want to hear from you. Have you or someone you know been detained by ICE? How do you feel about California being considered for more detention centers? What questions do you have about this expansion effort?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8259\" data-end=\"8405\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8265\" data-end=\"8279\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. Or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8407\" data-end=\"8483\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll have more with Wendy Fry and your calls after the break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“How We Get By,” a new series from KQED News, looks at how people in the Bay Area make do with the sky-high cost of living. Prices for necessities from housing and food to childcare and gas have shot up in the past decade and somehow, millions of people have managed to keep up – but how? For some people, it’s putting multiple generations under one roof, taking on a side hustle or cutting back on extras. What strategies help you afford to stay here? At what point do the costs outweigh the benefits? We’ll examine the price of living in the Bay Area, how it has shaped us and hear your experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"405\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last decade here in the Bay Area, it seems like everything has become too expensive — health care, food at the grocery store, childcare, a mid-meal at a fast-casual restaurant, schools, caretakers, homes, cars, every service, every product. People come here from places like London and are blown away by how expensive everything is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"407\" data-end=\"565\">So KQED is launching a new project, \u003cem data-start=\"443\" data-end=\"458\">How We Get By\u003c/em>. And here first to introduce it is Erin Baldassari, senior editor of housing affordability. Welcome, Erin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"567\" data-end=\"614\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"567\" data-end=\"587\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Hey. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"616\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"616\" data-end=\"636\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right. Talk to me about this project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"1005\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"700\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, I mean, the idea behind this series is really just to take stock of this moment that we’re living in. As you said, housing, health care, food — everything just feels more expensive right now. And we know that people are really good at finding solutions for themselves. People figure things out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1007\" data-end=\"1035\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1007\" data-end=\"1027\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1037\" data-end=\"1553\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1037\" data-end=\"1057\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t really want to focus too much on big policy solutions. We wanted to ground this moment in people’s experiences and hear about all the ways they’re making it work. Maybe that’s hosting family dinner night with friends, jointly buying a home with a non-romantic partner, or putting up an Airstream in your parents’ backyard. There are extreme strategies, surprising ones, creative ones, and a lot of quiet compromises people are making to figure out how to afford to keep living here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1555\" data-end=\"1837\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1555\" data-end=\"1575\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We want to hear yours, of course. We’re going to open up the phone lines early. What are your strategies for keeping up with the Bay Area’s cost of living? The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"1795\" data-end=\"1809\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1839\" data-end=\"2093\">I do want to know — the Bay Area has been expensive for decades. I’ve looked at documents from 40 years ago where people were talking about the cost of living here. So what do you think is specific about the current moment when it comes to affordability?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2095\" data-end=\"2298\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2095\" data-end=\"2115\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Yeah. There are a lot of ways I can answer that. There’s how I feel personally in my own life, there’s how I think about it as a journalist, and there’s this specific moment in time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2750\">Personally, I’m a millennial approaching 40. I know exactly two people my age who own a home. Some of my Gen X friends who bought 15 years ago own homes, but very few people in my age cohort do. And when I look at my counterparts in Gen Z, they’re still living with their parents. I also have friends who’ve left their jobs because their salaries couldn’t cover the cost of childcare. So yes, affordability has long been a challenge in the Bay Area —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2752\" data-end=\"2813\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2752\" data-end=\"2772\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But that doesn’t mean it can’t be worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2815\" data-end=\"3058\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2815\" data-end=\"2835\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Exactly. There’s just something about it that feels different now. I think it was exacerbated by the pandemic. Food became a lot more expensive. It just feels different in my life and in the lives of people I’m talking to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3060\" data-end=\"3532\">As a journalist, I’ve been focusing on housing affordability for the past six years. It’s the single biggest category of expense in people’s lives, so it makes sense to start there. When housing becomes less affordable, everything else becomes harder. And what I’ve been seeing is that the feeling we have toward housing in the Bay Area is creeping into other parts of our lives. Even owning a car is becoming increasingly challenging and out of reach for a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3534\" data-end=\"3697\">We’ve talked about health care, childcare, higher education — all of these expenses have risen faster than inflation. So we’re seeing all these pressures compound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3699\" data-end=\"4212\">And then, thinking about this specific political moment, watching Zohran Mamdani’s election to become New York mayor made it clear that affordability concerns are going to drive the midterm elections coming up this November. It’s going to be a huge part of the conversation in California, one of the most expensive states. As we begin to hear from future policymakers about how to address this crisis, it felt like a good time to hear from people about their lived experiences and the ways they’re making it work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4214\" data-end=\"4437\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4214\" data-end=\"4234\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It also strikes me that levels of inequality in the Bay Area — especially since the pandemic — have gone off the charts. Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse, there was more where that came from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4439\" data-end=\"4656\">Let’s bring in a couple of other guests to help us talk about this. Neale Mahoney is a professor of economics at Stanford and the Trione Director of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. Welcome, Neale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4658\" data-end=\"4690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4658\" data-end=\"4676\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4692\" data-end=\"4847\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4692\" data-end=\"4712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Abigail Lucia Sanchez, a predoctoral researcher at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. Welcome, Abigail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4849\" data-end=\"4911\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4849\" data-end=\"4875\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4913\" data-end=\"5111\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4913\" data-end=\"4933\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Neale, you were listening to us talk about our anecdotal impressions of how affordability has changed. What do you think? What components of affordability have shifted the most?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5113\" data-end=\"5635\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5113\" data-end=\"5131\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> What Erin said is completely right and borne out in the data. We have structural affordability issues in the United States, and particularly in the Bay Area. The Bay Area is ground zero for our affordability crisis. Those issues were turbocharged by the pandemic and then by an administration that campaigned on reducing prices but, once in office, imposed tariffs on many of the goods we buy, further increasing prices. So it’s not surprising that everybody is worried about making ends meet right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5637\" data-end=\"5958\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5637\" data-end=\"5657\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How much of that is perception? You go to the grocery store with an expectation for how much eggs, milk, or a bag of chips should cost. Then you see the price and think, “That’s too expensive.” How much is that psychological, and how much is it that things really are more expensive across the board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5960\" data-end=\"6251\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5960\" data-end=\"5978\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> It’s mostly real, especially in the Bay Area. Housing costs, health care — many families are one health shock away from bankruptcy. The cost of childcare that Erin mentioned: families with young kids are paying more for childcare than they are for their already high rent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6253\" data-end=\"6651\">We’ve seen gas prices go up 20 cents in the last two days following the war in Iran. Food is interesting. We anchor on the price of eggs or beef. Overall, food inflation has tracked wage growth, so we’re not spending a larger percentage of our income on food. But we are getting sticker shock on certain items, and combined with everything else, it’s driving a general feeling of financial anxiety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6886\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6673\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Talk to me about the causal mechanisms here. My folk theory is that housing makes everything more expensive because everyone needs housing, so it gets embedded in the price of everything else. Is that part of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6888\" data-end=\"7177\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6888\" data-end=\"6906\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> It’s not just a folk theory. It’s right. California has spectacularly high housing costs, particularly in the Bay Area. That problem started in the late 1970s with land-use regulation that limited how much housing we build. We’ve been building less than our peer cities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7179\" data-end=\"7569\">Then we had the dot-com boom, the social media boom, and now the AI boom — a limited housing supply combined with a group of people who have significant spending power. That drives up housing prices, which makes it very expensive for nurses, public school teachers, childcare workers to live here. That increases costs for everything else. Housing is at the root of our affordability issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7571\" data-end=\"7694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7571\" data-end=\"7591\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got a listener comment here. Abigail, I’m curious how this tracks with what you’ve been hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"8215\">A listener writes: “I’ve lived in the Bay Area for almost 30 years. First-generation immigrant, no family nest egg. I have a great job that pays $150,000 a year. However, I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance as I’m actively trying to move into San Francisco proper. Looks like more than half of my take-home salary will go to rent. On one hand, I know I’m blessed and should be grateful for the job I have, but the inability to afford to live comfortably with this type of salary is giving me a great deal of anxiety.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8217\" data-end=\"8443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8217\" data-end=\"8243\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> I completely agree. Affordability issues have been top of mind for as long as I’ve lived here. I grew up in the Bay Area, and especially on the first of the month, these issues become really salient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8445\" data-end=\"8749\">$150,000 can go a lot farther in other places. I empathize with the desire to stay in your home and community. For Gen Z, 64% of us spend more than 30% of our income on housing. So how are we supposed to save? How are we supposed to think about homeownership as a goal, or even something that’s possible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8751\" data-end=\"8971\">It’s heartbreaking because we call the Bay Area home. But it’s why so many people have left the core of the region for places like Vallejo, Tracy, or Antioch. That migration makes moving toward San Francisco even harder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8973\" data-end=\"9096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8973\" data-end=\"8993\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And then the commutes from those places are brutal. If you have to get to Palo Alto or San Francisco —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9098\" data-end=\"9197\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9098\" data-end=\"9124\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think the average commuting time in Antioch is 43 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9233\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9219\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9235\" data-end=\"9565\">We’re talking about KQED’s new series, \u003cem data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9289\">How We Get By\u003c/em>. We’re joined by Abigail Lucia Sanchez, a predoctoral researcher at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research; Neale Mahoney, professor of economics at Stanford and director of the institute; and Erin Baldassari, senior editor of housing affordability here at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9567\" data-end=\"9893\">We want to hear your strategies for keeping up with the Bay Area’s cost of living. Maybe you’re sharing a home, traveling for lower prescription drug costs, or coordinating with neighbors to save on childcare. Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9837\" data-end=\"9851\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9895\" data-end=\"9927\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 4 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“How We Get By,” a new series from KQED News, looks at how people in the Bay Area make do with the sky-high cost of living. Prices for necessities from housing and food to childcare and gas have shot up in the past decade and somehow, millions of people have managed to keep up – but how? For some people, it’s putting multiple generations under one roof, taking on a side hustle or cutting back on extras. What strategies help you afford to stay here? At what point do the costs outweigh the benefits? We’ll examine the price of living in the Bay Area, how it has shaped us and hear your experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"405\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last decade here in the Bay Area, it seems like everything has become too expensive — health care, food at the grocery store, childcare, a mid-meal at a fast-casual restaurant, schools, caretakers, homes, cars, every service, every product. People come here from places like London and are blown away by how expensive everything is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"407\" data-end=\"565\">So KQED is launching a new project, \u003cem data-start=\"443\" data-end=\"458\">How We Get By\u003c/em>. And here first to introduce it is Erin Baldassari, senior editor of housing affordability. Welcome, Erin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"567\" data-end=\"614\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"567\" data-end=\"587\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Hey. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"616\" data-end=\"678\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"616\" data-end=\"636\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> All right. Talk to me about this project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"1005\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"680\" data-end=\"700\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, I mean, the idea behind this series is really just to take stock of this moment that we’re living in. As you said, housing, health care, food — everything just feels more expensive right now. And we know that people are really good at finding solutions for themselves. People figure things out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1007\" data-end=\"1035\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1007\" data-end=\"1027\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1037\" data-end=\"1553\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1037\" data-end=\"1057\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> So we didn’t really want to focus too much on big policy solutions. We wanted to ground this moment in people’s experiences and hear about all the ways they’re making it work. Maybe that’s hosting family dinner night with friends, jointly buying a home with a non-romantic partner, or putting up an Airstream in your parents’ backyard. There are extreme strategies, surprising ones, creative ones, and a lot of quiet compromises people are making to figure out how to afford to keep living here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1555\" data-end=\"1837\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1555\" data-end=\"1575\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We want to hear yours, of course. We’re going to open up the phone lines early. What are your strategies for keeping up with the Bay Area’s cost of living? The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"1795\" data-end=\"1809\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1839\" data-end=\"2093\">I do want to know — the Bay Area has been expensive for decades. I’ve looked at documents from 40 years ago where people were talking about the cost of living here. So what do you think is specific about the current moment when it comes to affordability?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2095\" data-end=\"2298\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2095\" data-end=\"2115\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Yeah. There are a lot of ways I can answer that. There’s how I feel personally in my own life, there’s how I think about it as a journalist, and there’s this specific moment in time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2300\" data-end=\"2750\">Personally, I’m a millennial approaching 40. I know exactly two people my age who own a home. Some of my Gen X friends who bought 15 years ago own homes, but very few people in my age cohort do. And when I look at my counterparts in Gen Z, they’re still living with their parents. I also have friends who’ve left their jobs because their salaries couldn’t cover the cost of childcare. So yes, affordability has long been a challenge in the Bay Area —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2752\" data-end=\"2813\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2752\" data-end=\"2772\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But that doesn’t mean it can’t be worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2815\" data-end=\"3058\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2815\" data-end=\"2835\">Erin Baldassari:\u003c/strong> Exactly. There’s just something about it that feels different now. I think it was exacerbated by the pandemic. Food became a lot more expensive. It just feels different in my life and in the lives of people I’m talking to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3060\" data-end=\"3532\">As a journalist, I’ve been focusing on housing affordability for the past six years. It’s the single biggest category of expense in people’s lives, so it makes sense to start there. When housing becomes less affordable, everything else becomes harder. And what I’ve been seeing is that the feeling we have toward housing in the Bay Area is creeping into other parts of our lives. Even owning a car is becoming increasingly challenging and out of reach for a lot of people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3534\" data-end=\"3697\">We’ve talked about health care, childcare, higher education — all of these expenses have risen faster than inflation. So we’re seeing all these pressures compound.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3699\" data-end=\"4212\">And then, thinking about this specific political moment, watching Zohran Mamdani’s election to become New York mayor made it clear that affordability concerns are going to drive the midterm elections coming up this November. It’s going to be a huge part of the conversation in California, one of the most expensive states. As we begin to hear from future policymakers about how to address this crisis, it felt like a good time to hear from people about their lived experiences and the ways they’re making it work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4214\" data-end=\"4437\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4214\" data-end=\"4234\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It also strikes me that levels of inequality in the Bay Area — especially since the pandemic — have gone off the charts. Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse, there was more where that came from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4439\" data-end=\"4656\">Let’s bring in a couple of other guests to help us talk about this. Neale Mahoney is a professor of economics at Stanford and the Trione Director of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. Welcome, Neale.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4658\" data-end=\"4690\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4658\" data-end=\"4676\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4692\" data-end=\"4847\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4692\" data-end=\"4712\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Abigail Lucia Sanchez, a predoctoral researcher at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. Welcome, Abigail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4849\" data-end=\"4911\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4849\" data-end=\"4875\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4913\" data-end=\"5111\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4913\" data-end=\"4933\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Neale, you were listening to us talk about our anecdotal impressions of how affordability has changed. What do you think? What components of affordability have shifted the most?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5113\" data-end=\"5635\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5113\" data-end=\"5131\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> What Erin said is completely right and borne out in the data. We have structural affordability issues in the United States, and particularly in the Bay Area. The Bay Area is ground zero for our affordability crisis. Those issues were turbocharged by the pandemic and then by an administration that campaigned on reducing prices but, once in office, imposed tariffs on many of the goods we buy, further increasing prices. So it’s not surprising that everybody is worried about making ends meet right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5637\" data-end=\"5958\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5637\" data-end=\"5657\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> How much of that is perception? You go to the grocery store with an expectation for how much eggs, milk, or a bag of chips should cost. Then you see the price and think, “That’s too expensive.” How much is that psychological, and how much is it that things really are more expensive across the board?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5960\" data-end=\"6251\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5960\" data-end=\"5978\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> It’s mostly real, especially in the Bay Area. Housing costs, health care — many families are one health shock away from bankruptcy. The cost of childcare that Erin mentioned: families with young kids are paying more for childcare than they are for their already high rent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6253\" data-end=\"6651\">We’ve seen gas prices go up 20 cents in the last two days following the war in Iran. Food is interesting. We anchor on the price of eggs or beef. Overall, food inflation has tracked wage growth, so we’re not spending a larger percentage of our income on food. But we are getting sticker shock on certain items, and combined with everything else, it’s driving a general feeling of financial anxiety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6886\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6673\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Talk to me about the causal mechanisms here. My folk theory is that housing makes everything more expensive because everyone needs housing, so it gets embedded in the price of everything else. Is that part of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6888\" data-end=\"7177\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6888\" data-end=\"6906\">Neale Mahoney:\u003c/strong> It’s not just a folk theory. It’s right. California has spectacularly high housing costs, particularly in the Bay Area. That problem started in the late 1970s with land-use regulation that limited how much housing we build. We’ve been building less than our peer cities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7179\" data-end=\"7569\">Then we had the dot-com boom, the social media boom, and now the AI boom — a limited housing supply combined with a group of people who have significant spending power. That drives up housing prices, which makes it very expensive for nurses, public school teachers, childcare workers to live here. That increases costs for everything else. Housing is at the root of our affordability issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7571\" data-end=\"7694\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7571\" data-end=\"7591\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got a listener comment here. Abigail, I’m curious how this tracks with what you’ve been hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7696\" data-end=\"8215\">A listener writes: “I’ve lived in the Bay Area for almost 30 years. First-generation immigrant, no family nest egg. I have a great job that pays $150,000 a year. However, I’m experiencing cognitive dissonance as I’m actively trying to move into San Francisco proper. Looks like more than half of my take-home salary will go to rent. On one hand, I know I’m blessed and should be grateful for the job I have, but the inability to afford to live comfortably with this type of salary is giving me a great deal of anxiety.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8217\" data-end=\"8443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8217\" data-end=\"8243\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> I completely agree. Affordability issues have been top of mind for as long as I’ve lived here. I grew up in the Bay Area, and especially on the first of the month, these issues become really salient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8445\" data-end=\"8749\">$150,000 can go a lot farther in other places. I empathize with the desire to stay in your home and community. For Gen Z, 64% of us spend more than 30% of our income on housing. So how are we supposed to save? How are we supposed to think about homeownership as a goal, or even something that’s possible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8751\" data-end=\"8971\">It’s heartbreaking because we call the Bay Area home. But it’s why so many people have left the core of the region for places like Vallejo, Tracy, or Antioch. That migration makes moving toward San Francisco even harder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8973\" data-end=\"9096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8973\" data-end=\"8993\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And then the commutes from those places are brutal. If you have to get to Palo Alto or San Francisco —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9098\" data-end=\"9197\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9098\" data-end=\"9124\">Abigail Lucia Sanchez:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I think the average commuting time in Antioch is 43 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9233\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9199\" data-end=\"9219\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9235\" data-end=\"9565\">We’re talking about KQED’s new series, \u003cem data-start=\"9274\" data-end=\"9289\">How We Get By\u003c/em>. We’re joined by Abigail Lucia Sanchez, a predoctoral researcher at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research; Neale Mahoney, professor of economics at Stanford and director of the institute; and Erin Baldassari, senior editor of housing affordability here at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9567\" data-end=\"9893\">We want to hear your strategies for keeping up with the Bay Area’s cost of living. Maybe you’re sharing a home, traveling for lower prescription drug costs, or coordinating with neighbors to save on childcare. Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"onourwatch": {
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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},
"perspectives": {
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"order": 14
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
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