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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 27 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Tucker Carlson, the right wing pundit and onetime Donald Trump diehard, now says he regrets supporting the President. Carlson apologized on his show for misleading his audiences and said he’ll be tormented over that support for a long time. The comments mark a high-profile break between Trump and his former media ally, and they come amid growing divisions within the Republican party over Iran. New Yorker staff writer Jason Zengerle took a close look at Carlson’s many iterations and reversals in his recent biography “Hated by All the Right People.” We talk to Zengerle about what Carlson’s apparent change of heart signals about the future of Trump-era conservatism and get your reactions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Tucker Carlson’s break with President Trump is prompting myriad questions and opinion pieces about its sincerity and significance. Here’s what started it all: Carlson, on his podcast last week, told his brother Buckley that after the Iran war, he regrets supporting the president and is tormented by it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tucker Carlson (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re implicated in this for sure. Yes. It’s not enough to say, well, I changed my mind or, like, oh, this is bad, I’m out. In very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. So I do think it’s a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. We’ll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say I’m sorry for misleading people—it was not intentional. That’s all I’ll say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Listeners, your reaction? What do you make of Tucker Carlson’s apology and disavowal of Trump? You can tell us at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, or by email at forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jason Zengerle is a New Yorker staff writer and author of a recent biography of Tucker Carlson called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hated by All the Right People\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Jason, thanks for coming on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First, what did you make of these remarks when you heard them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was surprised, but also not surprised. They reminded me a lot of how Tucker has talked about the Iraq War, which was a big inflection point in his career. He supported the war, had some doubts going in, suppressed those doubts, and then became one of the first conservative pundits to turn against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not only did he disavow his support, but he also wrestled with why he got it wrong. That led to a significant ideological shift—toward a more anti-interventionist, isolationist foreign policy, along with more restrictionist views on immigration and opposition to free trade, similar to Pat Buchanan’s positions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story he tells about his current views often traces back to Iraq. And I think he’s doing something similar now—using similar language about being “tormented” and starting to construct a new narrative for himself. I’m a bit surprised by how forthright he’s been in criticizing Trump. I thought he might be more cautious. But it’s not the first time he’s changed his mind—or broken with Trump.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in 2020, during Trump’s presidency—after COVID and amid the Black Lives Matter protests—Tucker privately told people he was done with Trump. Even publicly, if you read between the lines of his Fox show, you could see that shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s some sincerity in his comments, especially given his long-standing opposition to U.S. involvement in foreign wars. But you also said you were surprised by how direct he was. In what ways? Do you think his apology—saying he misled people and feels tormented—is sincere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s hard to judge sincerity. What I meant is that he’s being very absolute—he’s not leaving much wiggle room. In that sense, I do think he’s genuinely angry at Trump and feels betrayed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, with Tucker, you always have to consider the bigger picture. I think what he’s saying is genuine, but it’s also a political move. He’s positioning himself for something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s bring in a caller. Vincent in Sacramento, you’re on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent (caller):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning, Mina. Thank you for taking my call. I’ll keep it short. I don’t think Tucker Carlson can be trusted at all. I’m just speculating, but I think in the future he might want to run for president or something, and he needs to distance himself now to have any chance at redemption. That’s all I wanted to say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks, Vincent. Jason, what are you hearing about that possibility?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree with that line of thinking. In the past, when people asked if Tucker might run for president, I’d say it was conceivable, but not something he’d always wanted. He’s not like Bill Clinton, who seemed driven toward the presidency from early on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought the only scenarios where he might run were if someone like JD Vance—who aligns closely with him—changed course ideologically, or if Tucker concluded Vance couldn’t win. And I didn’t think that would happen before 2032.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Iran war has changed that calculus. The way Tucker is leaning into his criticism of Trump suggests he could be positioning himself for a 2028 run. He would likely frame himself as the true heir to MAGA, arguing it’s an ideological movement centered on things like anti-interventionism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The counterargument is that MAGA is more of a personality-driven movement centered on Trump himself. Tucker may be testing which of those is true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So he’s betting there’s a movement beyond Trump that he could lead. I also want to ask about how far he’s willing to go in criticizing Trump’s character. He’s hinted at concerns but hasn’t gone all the way. Is that deliberate?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. He’s had private doubts about Trump’s character for a long time. Even during Trump’s presidency, Tucker supported his policies but avoided fully embracing him as a person. Off air, he kept some distance, likely because he believed getting too close to Trump could be damaging.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That changed after he left Fox and aligned more closely with Trump. But those underlying concerns about Trump’s character have always been there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now he’s voicing some of them, but he’s not rejecting Trump entirely. His criticism is focused mainly on foreign policy—especially Iran and, more broadly, Israel. He’s constructing a narrative that Trump is being influenced or constrained, which veers into conspiracy theory territory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, and he’s also suggested Trump is being influenced by neoconservatives. Some listeners point out that he hasn’t criticized other aspects of Trump’s presidency—for example, January 6.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In fact, he’s criticized Trump from the right on January 6, saying he wasn’t aggressive enough. If you listen to the full podcast interview, not just the widely shared clip, he continues to praise Trump on many fronts. It’s really this one issue—foreign policy—that’s driving the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before we go to break, why does this matter? What’s the scope of Carlson’s influence right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He has a substantial following within the MAGA universe. After Trump, he may have one of the largest audiences—though there’s still a huge gap between them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Others have tried to break with Trump and failed. That may happen here too. But Tucker is one of the most prominent, skilled, and influential figures to attempt it, which makes this worth watching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jason Zengerle, staff writer at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 27 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Tucker Carlson, the right wing pundit and onetime Donald Trump diehard, now says he regrets supporting the President. Carlson apologized on his show for misleading his audiences and said he’ll be tormented over that support for a long time. The comments mark a high-profile break between Trump and his former media ally, and they come amid growing divisions within the Republican party over Iran. New Yorker staff writer Jason Zengerle took a close look at Carlson’s many iterations and reversals in his recent biography “Hated by All the Right People.” We talk to Zengerle about what Carlson’s apparent change of heart signals about the future of Trump-era conservatism and get your reactions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Tucker Carlson’s break with President Trump is prompting myriad questions and opinion pieces about its sincerity and significance. Here’s what started it all: Carlson, on his podcast last week, told his brother Buckley that after the Iran war, he regrets supporting the president and is tormented by it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tucker Carlson (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re implicated in this for sure. Yes. It’s not enough to say, well, I changed my mind or, like, oh, this is bad, I’m out. In very small ways, but in real ways, you and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. So I do think it’s a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. We’ll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say I’m sorry for misleading people—it was not intentional. That’s all I’ll say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Listeners, your reaction? What do you make of Tucker Carlson’s apology and disavowal of Trump? You can tell us at 866-733-6786, on our social channels, or by email at forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jason Zengerle is a New Yorker staff writer and author of a recent biography of Tucker Carlson called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hated by All the Right People\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Jason, thanks for coming on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thanks a lot for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First, what did you make of these remarks when you heard them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was surprised, but also not surprised. They reminded me a lot of how Tucker has talked about the Iraq War, which was a big inflection point in his career. He supported the war, had some doubts going in, suppressed those doubts, and then became one of the first conservative pundits to turn against it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not only did he disavow his support, but he also wrestled with why he got it wrong. That led to a significant ideological shift—toward a more anti-interventionist, isolationist foreign policy, along with more restrictionist views on immigration and opposition to free trade, similar to Pat Buchanan’s positions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The story he tells about his current views often traces back to Iraq. And I think he’s doing something similar now—using similar language about being “tormented” and starting to construct a new narrative for himself. I’m a bit surprised by how forthright he’s been in criticizing Trump. I thought he might be more cautious. But it’s not the first time he’s changed his mind—or broken with Trump.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in 2020, during Trump’s presidency—after COVID and amid the Black Lives Matter protests—Tucker privately told people he was done with Trump. Even publicly, if you read between the lines of his Fox show, you could see that shift.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there’s some sincerity in his comments, especially given his long-standing opposition to U.S. involvement in foreign wars. But you also said you were surprised by how direct he was. In what ways? Do you think his apology—saying he misled people and feels tormented—is sincere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s hard to judge sincerity. What I meant is that he’s being very absolute—he’s not leaving much wiggle room. In that sense, I do think he’s genuinely angry at Trump and feels betrayed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, with Tucker, you always have to consider the bigger picture. I think what he’s saying is genuine, but it’s also a political move. He’s positioning himself for something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let’s bring in a caller. Vincent in Sacramento, you’re on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent (caller):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning, Mina. Thank you for taking my call. I’ll keep it short. I don’t think Tucker Carlson can be trusted at all. I’m just speculating, but I think in the future he might want to run for president or something, and he needs to distance himself now to have any chance at redemption. That’s all I wanted to say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks, Vincent. Jason, what are you hearing about that possibility?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I agree with that line of thinking. In the past, when people asked if Tucker might run for president, I’d say it was conceivable, but not something he’d always wanted. He’s not like Bill Clinton, who seemed driven toward the presidency from early on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought the only scenarios where he might run were if someone like JD Vance—who aligns closely with him—changed course ideologically, or if Tucker concluded Vance couldn’t win. And I didn’t think that would happen before 2032.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the Iran war has changed that calculus. The way Tucker is leaning into his criticism of Trump suggests he could be positioning himself for a 2028 run. He would likely frame himself as the true heir to MAGA, arguing it’s an ideological movement centered on things like anti-interventionism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The counterargument is that MAGA is more of a personality-driven movement centered on Trump himself. Tucker may be testing which of those is true.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So he’s betting there’s a movement beyond Trump that he could lead. I also want to ask about how far he’s willing to go in criticizing Trump’s character. He’s hinted at concerns but hasn’t gone all the way. Is that deliberate?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. He’s had private doubts about Trump’s character for a long time. Even during Trump’s presidency, Tucker supported his policies but avoided fully embracing him as a person. Off air, he kept some distance, likely because he believed getting too close to Trump could be damaging.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That changed after he left Fox and aligned more closely with Trump. But those underlying concerns about Trump’s character have always been there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now he’s voicing some of them, but he’s not rejecting Trump entirely. His criticism is focused mainly on foreign policy—especially Iran and, more broadly, Israel. He’s constructing a narrative that Trump is being influenced or constrained, which veers into conspiracy theory territory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, and he’s also suggested Trump is being influenced by neoconservatives. Some listeners point out that he hasn’t criticized other aspects of Trump’s presidency—for example, January 6.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In fact, he’s criticized Trump from the right on January 6, saying he wasn’t aggressive enough. If you listen to the full podcast interview, not just the widely shared clip, he continues to praise Trump on many fronts. It’s really this one issue—foreign policy—that’s driving the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Before we go to break, why does this matter? What’s the scope of Carlson’s influence right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jason Zengerle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He has a substantial following within the MAGA universe. After Trump, he may have one of the largest audiences—though there’s still a huge gap between them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Others have tried to break with Trump and failed. That may happen here too. But Tucker is one of the most prominent, skilled, and influential figures to attempt it, which makes this worth watching.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jason Zengerle, staff writer at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. His recent book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hated by All the Right People: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with Jason and with you, our listeners, right after the break. Stay with us. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 27 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The death of a San Jose toddler in foster care has Santa Clara’s child welfare system scrambling to respond and politicians asking what went wrong. Six percent of children nationwide will enter the foster care system, primarily for reasons of neglect – which can mean conditions of poverty, homelessness, parental drug abuse or mental health issues. We’ll talk to child welfare experts about what we do right and what we could improve in caring for children deeply in need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In San Jose, Jackson was a two-year-old experiencing a very difficult early life. He’d been placed in foster care with a paternal cousin, and tragically, he was killed by a teen relative living in that home, according to authorities. It’s a horrible story. We’re going to try to explain what happened, explore the fallout, and then broaden out this show to talk about the realities of the foster care system in our region and how it attempts to balance really difficult values in really difficult situations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us first, we have Julia Prodis Sulek, a reporter with the Bay Area News Group. She was part of the San Jose Mercury News team that won the 2017 Pulitzer Prize for breaking news reporting. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So give us a little more, Julia, about what we know of what happened to Jackson, this two-year-old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s just such a tragic, horrible story. The teenager—his cousin, whom he lived with for the last six weeks of his life—has been charged with murder and multiple counts of sexual assault. It’s been devastating to everyone, from the foster care community to social workers to county leaders. I’ve been trying to investigate what went wrong, and it seems like there were many things along the way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Why was Jackson in foster care to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was born two years ago with fetal alcohol syndrome and was almost two months premature. Child Protective Services had been involved early on—in Santa Clara County, it’s called the Department of Family and Children’s Services. At a certain point in his young life, rules were put in place that his parents couldn’t be left alone with him. His mother had alcohol problems, and his father had significant health issues and was frequently in and out of the hospital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was difficult for his parents to care for him. He was living with them as well as his paternal grandmother. As long as she was present, Jackson could remain in that home. But there were some issues—at one point, his mother wasn’t home when a CPS worker visited—and they decided it was time to remove him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went to live with his grandfather in the Sacramento area for six months. Unfortunately, because of his medical and developmental challenges—he had some autism-related issues, difficulty walking, and was nonverbal—he was very difficult for his grandfather to care for. After six months, social workers decided he should be placed with his paternal cousin back in San Jose. She was a 40-year-old woman with three children of her own, including her teenage son, who is now charged with murder. That’s how he ended up there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a situation like this—a child with significant needs and a family that’s fractured in important ways—how does the Department of Family and Children’s Services determine placement? Is it about availability, or are they working from some kind of rubric? What are they actually looking at?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think keeping children with family and relatives is really a priority. There’s a lot of concern about the trauma that comes from moving a child from one place to another, and there’s a strong belief that being with family is generally the better option.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackson’s father and grandmother also encouraged placing him with this cousin. And I should add that his mother died about six months ago, when he was around a year and a half old, due to alcohol-related problems. So the tragedies really mounted for this child.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a strong push to keep families together, but that has also contributed to some of the agency’s challenges. Two years ago, the state Department of Social Services investigated after the death of a baby named Phoenix from a fentanyl overdose. They found the county was putting too much emphasis on keeping families together rather than on child safety. That’s one of the questions now—whether that approach is still influencing decisions and may have played a role here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But isn’t prioritizing keeping families together fairly standard practice across the country?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, absolutely. Social workers have long tried to place children with relatives. But in Santa Clara County, many say the pendulum swung too far in recent years. Children were sometimes kept in homes despite multiple allegations of abuse, with the hope that services—like parenting classes or drug rehab—would help parents improve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there were breakdowns in that system, and in some cases, children remained in dangerous situations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this case, the cousin Jackson was placed with had a prior felony child endangerment conviction from about 10 or 12 years ago. Shouldn’t that have disqualified her as a caregiver?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, especially for what’s called an emergency placement—although in this case, it doesn’t seem like a true emergency. The grandfather had given plenty of notice that he couldn’t continue caring for Jackson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Child welfare experts have said that this conviction should have disqualified her from the start. There can be exceptions, but they say there shouldn’t have been one here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s also broader context in Santa Clara County, including other child deaths that prompted state oversight. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 27 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The death of a San Jose toddler in foster care has Santa Clara’s child welfare system scrambling to respond and politicians asking what went wrong. Six percent of children nationwide will enter the foster care system, primarily for reasons of neglect – which can mean conditions of poverty, homelessness, parental drug abuse or mental health issues. We’ll talk to child welfare experts about what we do right and what we could improve in caring for children deeply in need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In San Jose, Jackson was a two-year-old experiencing a very difficult early life. He’d been placed in foster care with a paternal cousin, and tragically, he was killed by a teen relative living in that home, according to authorities. It’s a horrible story. We’re going to try to explain what happened, explore the fallout, and then broaden out this show to talk about the realities of the foster care system in our region and how it attempts to balance really difficult values in really difficult situations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us first, we have Julia Prodis Sulek, a reporter with the Bay Area News Group. She was part of the San Jose Mercury News team that won the 2017 Pulitzer Prize for breaking news reporting. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So give us a little more, Julia, about what we know of what happened to Jackson, this two-year-old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s just such a tragic, horrible story. The teenager—his cousin, whom he lived with for the last six weeks of his life—has been charged with murder and multiple counts of sexual assault. It’s been devastating to everyone, from the foster care community to social workers to county leaders. I’ve been trying to investigate what went wrong, and it seems like there were many things along the way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Why was Jackson in foster care to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was born two years ago with fetal alcohol syndrome and was almost two months premature. Child Protective Services had been involved early on—in Santa Clara County, it’s called the Department of Family and Children’s Services. At a certain point in his young life, rules were put in place that his parents couldn’t be left alone with him. His mother had alcohol problems, and his father had significant health issues and was frequently in and out of the hospital.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was difficult for his parents to care for him. He was living with them as well as his paternal grandmother. As long as she was present, Jackson could remain in that home. But there were some issues—at one point, his mother wasn’t home when a CPS worker visited—and they decided it was time to remove him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He went to live with his grandfather in the Sacramento area for six months. Unfortunately, because of his medical and developmental challenges—he had some autism-related issues, difficulty walking, and was nonverbal—he was very difficult for his grandfather to care for. After six months, social workers decided he should be placed with his paternal cousin back in San Jose. She was a 40-year-old woman with three children of her own, including her teenage son, who is now charged with murder. That’s how he ended up there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a situation like this—a child with significant needs and a family that’s fractured in important ways—how does the Department of Family and Children’s Services determine placement? Is it about availability, or are they working from some kind of rubric? What are they actually looking at?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think keeping children with family and relatives is really a priority. There’s a lot of concern about the trauma that comes from moving a child from one place to another, and there’s a strong belief that being with family is generally the better option.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jackson’s father and grandmother also encouraged placing him with this cousin. And I should add that his mother died about six months ago, when he was around a year and a half old, due to alcohol-related problems. So the tragedies really mounted for this child.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been a strong push to keep families together, but that has also contributed to some of the agency’s challenges. Two years ago, the state Department of Social Services investigated after the death of a baby named Phoenix from a fentanyl overdose. They found the county was putting too much emphasis on keeping families together rather than on child safety. That’s one of the questions now—whether that approach is still influencing decisions and may have played a role here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But isn’t prioritizing keeping families together fairly standard practice across the country?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, absolutely. Social workers have long tried to place children with relatives. But in Santa Clara County, many say the pendulum swung too far in recent years. Children were sometimes kept in homes despite multiple allegations of abuse, with the hope that services—like parenting classes or drug rehab—would help parents improve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there were breakdowns in that system, and in some cases, children remained in dangerous situations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this case, the cousin Jackson was placed with had a prior felony child endangerment conviction from about 10 or 12 years ago. Shouldn’t that have disqualified her as a caregiver?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, especially for what’s called an emergency placement—although in this case, it doesn’t seem like a true emergency. The grandfather had given plenty of notice that he couldn’t continue caring for Jackson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Child welfare experts have said that this conviction should have disqualified her from the start. There can be exceptions, but they say there shouldn’t have been one here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s also broader context in Santa Clara County, including other child deaths that prompted state oversight. What did that state report find?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julia Prodis Sulek: One key finding—also reflected in our reporting at the Mercury News—was that starting in 2021, after the George Floyd protests, an email from then-agency head Dan Little urged social workers to do everything possible to keep children in their homes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The state later found that removals through the court system dropped significantly after that. After the death of baby Phoenix, reforms were implemented, including a corrective action plan. One important issue they identified was the reliance on voluntary safety plans. If a case doesn’t go through the courts, social workers have limited authority. Parents are encouraged—but not required—to follow through on services, and there was often little follow-up or consequence when they didn’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Outside of these tragic deaths, do we know how the system was performing overall?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julia Prodis Sulek: Social workers have one of the toughest jobs imaginable. They deal with deep dysfunction, generational trauma, and families trying to cope without adequate tools. It’s an incredibly difficult system, and many are doing the best they can under challenging circumstances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What happens now? Are there policy changes underway at the county level?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Prodis Sulek: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The big question is how, after two years of reforms and renewed focus on child safety, another death could happen. Beyond baby Phoenix in 2023, there was another case in 2024 where a seven-year-old was placed with his grandmother despite relatives’ objections. He was later stabbed to death by an uncle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A child death review also found three additional cases where children died while having some level of involvement with child protective services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Often, referrals come in—people report suspected abuse—but when social workers investigate, they may not find enough evidence to take action.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re talking about the foster care system and the tragic death of a child in Santa Clara County. Thank you so much for joining us. Julia Prodis Sulek, a reporter with the Bay Area News Group. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"hyphenacion": {
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
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"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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"latino-usa": {
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"title": "Latino USA",
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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