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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 3 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Is your kid a fussy eater? A lot of us have come to accept that there’s a period where children can only stomach dino nuggets, buttered noodles and PB&J’s. But American kids used to be “fabulous” eaters, writes historian Helen Zoe Veit. They ate “spicy relishes, vinegary pickles… raw oysters and looked forward to their daily coffee.” We talk to Veit about what happened, and what we can learn from the past to expand kids’ palates — and help parents feel less overwhelmed at dinner time. Veit’s new book is “Picky: How American Children Became the Fussiest Eaters in History.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a reason American kids are such picky eaters, and it doesn’t have to do with biology or an innate preference for bland foods like buttered noodles and cheese pizza, says social historian Helen Zoe Veit. It has to do in large part with cultural shifts over the last century, including changes in activity levels, widely adopted myths about child psychology, and the rise of highly processed foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Veit says that’s good news, because if it’s not innate, it can be changed. So if you or someone you know is exhausted from trying to get kids to be more adventurous eaters—or from making separate meals just so they’ll eat—Veit says there are concrete ways to combat the causes of pickiness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picky: How American Children Became the Fussiest Eaters in History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Helen Zoe Veit, welcome to Forum. Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the things you point to in making your argument is how kids ate before the 1930s or so. Which was how?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh man, it almost sounds like science fiction when you talk about it today because it’s just so wildly different from everything we’ve been told is natural and normal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans in general in, let’s say, the nineteenth century ate so much more diversely than we do today in terms of species. They ate an incredible variety of plant species, a lot more heirloom varieties, wild plants, and lots more animal species than we do—different kinds of birds and fish and shellfish, organ meats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the crucial thing is that children, with very few exceptions, generally ate what their parents were eating. That was the norm for most people. So edible food would be ready at a meal, and kids would show up along with their parents and, for the most part, they would eat the same food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The even more crucial part is that they weren’t just eating the food—everybody agreed they liked it. There was a broad idea that kids love to eat, that they’re naturally omnivorous, and enjoyment and pleasure were the big themes of kids’ food in the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You write about how to describe that someone “ate like a kid” was actually to describe them being overeager to try lots of things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s just so different from today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s not because food was more scarce then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we think today about why kids ate more broadly in the past, we usually make two assumptions. One is scarcity—we imagine there wasn’t enough food to go around, so kids were forcing down hated foods as the only alternative to starvation. Or we might imagine it was harsh discipline—parents in the past who were ignorant of psychology forced their miserable kids to eat these foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fascinating thing from the history is that really neither is true. Now that being said, hunger is important. There were plenty of people in the past who were poor. There were desperately poor people in America, and poor kids by all accounts ate eagerly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, middle-class kids, children of the wealthiest families, farm children living in situations of abundance—they were eating eagerly too. Here’s how hunger played a role with them. Kids were generally really hungry when they came to meals, even if they got plenty to eat overall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were doing more chores, walking more, spending more time outside, and they weren’t snacking much. Snacks were logistically hard. Before plastics, highly processed food, and refrigerators, there wasn’t a whole lot of edible food available between meals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So kids showed up to meals with really big appetites. And I always say, if you’ve ever gone grocery shopping on an empty stomach and come home with strange items that just looked so good to you, you know what a powerful tool hunger can be in sharpening our interest in food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So compare what you just told us about how kids ate a century ago with how kids eat today. How would you characterize how kids eat today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think there’s an irony at the heart of modern children’s food. Many parents, who are just trying to do the best they possibly can to feed their kids, want their kids to be happy. They want to please their children. And they’ve gotten a lot of marketing messages and other messages—there are a lot of myths swirling around children’s food—that to please our kids we have to feed them a pretty narrow range of foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a lot of products in the supermarket geared specifically toward kids. Children’s food has become its own genre. Many of us think of kids’ food as a distinct category.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The irony for me is that so much of modern kids’ food is actually about displeasure. It’s about helping kids avoid all of these foods that they’re supposedly incapable of liking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The real mission behind the book is to get a more expansive sense back into our culture of what kids are capable of liking. Far from the myth that maybe you could force your kid to hatefully accept these foods, I want to move toward the idea of teaching kids to love diverse foods—to get authentic pleasure and a much bigger sense of pleasure back into kids’ food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s interesting how much this idea that kids like a narrower and maybe blander range of foods has made its way into our culture. I’m just thinking about how common it is to see kids’ menu options at restaurants—and how often those options are exactly the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s an incredible homogeneity in kids’ menus across the country. Interestingly, in casual restaurants and in fancy restaurants, it’s often the same recombinations of white flour and a few kinds of meat and cheese, maybe some tomato sauce or ketchup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">French fries—it’s really narrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the many fascinating things about this project was looking at kids’ menus when they first emerged. If you look at children’s menus from the 1930s, for example, you don’t see many French fries or hamburgers. You see a lot of lamb. You see a lot of spinach. You see prunes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the idea was: this is normal kids’ food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Talk also about the lengths some parents have gone to accommodate pickiness—or the idea that kids want a narrow range of foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Parenting around food is so hard today. I think that for many families it’s the hardest thing about parenting, and that’s not something I say lightly. There are many challenges with parenting today—sleep for some families, general busyness, social media—but for many families, food is the hardest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s because parents have been put in an impossible position. On the one hand, they’ve been told: be so careful about talking to your kids about food. Never push them to eat anything in particular. Kids are natural rebels—if you push them, they’ll develop lifelong aversions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you push them to eat a particular quantity, they’ll never develop a sense of authentic fullness, which could lead to overeating or obesity. And if you make food too emotional or stressful, that could lead to disordered eating or eating disorders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Parents are scared of doing the wrong thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, they’re told kids’ health is extremely important. Childhood obesity rates are rising. Children are developing chronic diseases—type 2 diabetes, heart problems, high blood pressure—that were once rare in childhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So parents feel paralyzed. They don’t know what to do. They feel stuck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of parents today feel that children need special, separate meals. When they’re in the grocery store or preparing food at home, they’re buying and cooking different meals for different family members.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many parents would love their kids to eat more broadly, and they’re trying to introduce vegetables and other foods using the parenting rules they’ve been handed. But they feel like they’re banging their heads against a wall of biological pickiness—when in part the problem is that our modern rules are so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, is your kid a picky eater—or were you one? How do you deal with it? How much has it affected your mealtime dynamics? And are you trying to get your kids to be more adventurous eaters?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has worked for you, if anything?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or by calling us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like another big change has been more snacking. Snacking is more common. I imagine kids are coming to the table less hungry for that reason—and also because kids have become less active, you say?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Kids’ levels of movement are really part of the picture. Kids used to walk a lot. They used to work a lot outside. I’m not advocating for a return to some of the child labor practices of the past, but certainly many kids would probably be happier if they were moving around more during the day. We know exercise is important for all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another factor we might not think about in terms of hunger is milk drinking. One of the big changes starting in the early twentieth century was that parents were told they should give kids large amounts of whole milk. For decades, the recommendation was a quart of whole milk a day for kids as young as two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was taking up significant stomach real estate, and all of this contributes to kids being less hungry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, the food itself is also important. What kinds of foods are we feeding kids? What kinds of foods are in the kitchen to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The flood of highly processed foods into many American homes in the mid-twentieth century is another big factor in establishing new expectations for how easy it should be for children to like food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the past, the idea of acquiring taste was normal. Today, if you hear something is an acquired taste, we think that means it’s an adult food. But in previous generations, kids were acquiring tastes as soon as they were learning to eat. It was happening in early toddlerhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once highly processed foods entered American homes, it became clear there were lots of foods kids didn’t have to acquire a taste for—they liked them instantly. So it became less common for families to teach kids to like foods over time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, psychologists began telling parents that it was psychologically risky to talk too much with their kids about what they should eat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it sounds like at the same time, these readily available shelf-stable processed foods made it easier to just hand a kid what they wanted—or to create separate meals for them as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. The ease of providing alternative meals when a child didn’t readily want to eat a family meal increased dramatically. It wasn’t like a switch flipped overnight, but it became less and less normal to expect a child to eat the family meal—especially when it’s so easy in many households to say, “Just make yourself a bowl of cereal,” or a PB&J.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, there are class dimensions to this. There are many families who don’t have those options. But for many middle-class and wealthier families, it became easy to offer alternatives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about why American kids are such picky eaters with Helen Zoe Veit. We’ll have more with her—and with you—after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 3 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Is your kid a fussy eater? A lot of us have come to accept that there’s a period where children can only stomach dino nuggets, buttered noodles and PB&J’s. But American kids used to be “fabulous” eaters, writes historian Helen Zoe Veit. They ate “spicy relishes, vinegary pickles… raw oysters and looked forward to their daily coffee.” We talk to Veit about what happened, and what we can learn from the past to expand kids’ palates — and help parents feel less overwhelmed at dinner time. Veit’s new book is “Picky: How American Children Became the Fussiest Eaters in History.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s a reason American kids are such picky eaters, and it doesn’t have to do with biology or an innate preference for bland foods like buttered noodles and cheese pizza, says social historian Helen Zoe Veit. It has to do in large part with cultural shifts over the last century, including changes in activity levels, widely adopted myths about child psychology, and the rise of highly processed foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Veit says that’s good news, because if it’s not innate, it can be changed. So if you or someone you know is exhausted from trying to get kids to be more adventurous eaters—or from making separate meals just so they’ll eat—Veit says there are concrete ways to combat the causes of pickiness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Picky: How American Children Became the Fussiest Eaters in History\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Helen Zoe Veit, welcome to Forum. Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So one of the things you point to in making your argument is how kids ate before the 1930s or so. Which was how?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh man, it almost sounds like science fiction when you talk about it today because it’s just so wildly different from everything we’ve been told is natural and normal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans in general in, let’s say, the nineteenth century ate so much more diversely than we do today in terms of species. They ate an incredible variety of plant species, a lot more heirloom varieties, wild plants, and lots more animal species than we do—different kinds of birds and fish and shellfish, organ meats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the crucial thing is that children, with very few exceptions, generally ate what their parents were eating. That was the norm for most people. So edible food would be ready at a meal, and kids would show up along with their parents and, for the most part, they would eat the same food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The even more crucial part is that they weren’t just eating the food—everybody agreed they liked it. There was a broad idea that kids love to eat, that they’re naturally omnivorous, and enjoyment and pleasure were the big themes of kids’ food in the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You write about how to describe that someone “ate like a kid” was actually to describe them being overeager to try lots of things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s just so different from today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s not because food was more scarce then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we think today about why kids ate more broadly in the past, we usually make two assumptions. One is scarcity—we imagine there wasn’t enough food to go around, so kids were forcing down hated foods as the only alternative to starvation. Or we might imagine it was harsh discipline—parents in the past who were ignorant of psychology forced their miserable kids to eat these foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The fascinating thing from the history is that really neither is true. Now that being said, hunger is important. There were plenty of people in the past who were poor. There were desperately poor people in America, and poor kids by all accounts ate eagerly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, middle-class kids, children of the wealthiest families, farm children living in situations of abundance—they were eating eagerly too. Here’s how hunger played a role with them. Kids were generally really hungry when they came to meals, even if they got plenty to eat overall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were doing more chores, walking more, spending more time outside, and they weren’t snacking much. Snacks were logistically hard. Before plastics, highly processed food, and refrigerators, there wasn’t a whole lot of edible food available between meals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So kids showed up to meals with really big appetites. And I always say, if you’ve ever gone grocery shopping on an empty stomach and come home with strange items that just looked so good to you, you know what a powerful tool hunger can be in sharpening our interest in food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So compare what you just told us about how kids ate a century ago with how kids eat today. How would you characterize how kids eat today?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think there’s an irony at the heart of modern children’s food. Many parents, who are just trying to do the best they possibly can to feed their kids, want their kids to be happy. They want to please their children. And they’ve gotten a lot of marketing messages and other messages—there are a lot of myths swirling around children’s food—that to please our kids we have to feed them a pretty narrow range of foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a lot of products in the supermarket geared specifically toward kids. Children’s food has become its own genre. Many of us think of kids’ food as a distinct category.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The irony for me is that so much of modern kids’ food is actually about displeasure. It’s about helping kids avoid all of these foods that they’re supposedly incapable of liking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The real mission behind the book is to get a more expansive sense back into our culture of what kids are capable of liking. Far from the myth that maybe you could force your kid to hatefully accept these foods, I want to move toward the idea of teaching kids to love diverse foods—to get authentic pleasure and a much bigger sense of pleasure back into kids’ food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s interesting how much this idea that kids like a narrower and maybe blander range of foods has made its way into our culture. I’m just thinking about how common it is to see kids’ menu options at restaurants—and how often those options are exactly the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There’s an incredible homogeneity in kids’ menus across the country. Interestingly, in casual restaurants and in fancy restaurants, it’s often the same recombinations of white flour and a few kinds of meat and cheese, maybe some tomato sauce or ketchup.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">French fries—it’s really narrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of the many fascinating things about this project was looking at kids’ menus when they first emerged. If you look at children’s menus from the 1930s, for example, you don’t see many French fries or hamburgers. You see a lot of lamb. You see a lot of spinach. You see prunes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the idea was: this is normal kids’ food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Talk also about the lengths some parents have gone to accommodate pickiness—or the idea that kids want a narrow range of foods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Parenting around food is so hard today. I think that for many families it’s the hardest thing about parenting, and that’s not something I say lightly. There are many challenges with parenting today—sleep for some families, general busyness, social media—but for many families, food is the hardest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s because parents have been put in an impossible position. On the one hand, they’ve been told: be so careful about talking to your kids about food. Never push them to eat anything in particular. Kids are natural rebels—if you push them, they’ll develop lifelong aversions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you push them to eat a particular quantity, they’ll never develop a sense of authentic fullness, which could lead to overeating or obesity. And if you make food too emotional or stressful, that could lead to disordered eating or eating disorders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Parents are scared of doing the wrong thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But at the same time, they’re told kids’ health is extremely important. Childhood obesity rates are rising. Children are developing chronic diseases—type 2 diabetes, heart problems, high blood pressure—that were once rare in childhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So parents feel paralyzed. They don’t know what to do. They feel stuck.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of parents today feel that children need special, separate meals. When they’re in the grocery store or preparing food at home, they’re buying and cooking different meals for different family members.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Many parents would love their kids to eat more broadly, and they’re trying to introduce vegetables and other foods using the parenting rules they’ve been handed. But they feel like they’re banging their heads against a wall of biological pickiness—when in part the problem is that our modern rules are so different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, is your kid a picky eater—or were you one? How do you deal with it? How much has it affected your mealtime dynamics? And are you trying to get your kids to be more adventurous eaters?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has worked for you, if anything?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can tell us by emailing forum@kqed.org, finding us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or by calling us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It sounds like another big change has been more snacking. Snacking is more common. I imagine kids are coming to the table less hungry for that reason—and also because kids have become less active, you say?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Kids’ levels of movement are really part of the picture. Kids used to walk a lot. They used to work a lot outside. I’m not advocating for a return to some of the child labor practices of the past, but certainly many kids would probably be happier if they were moving around more during the day. We know exercise is important for all of us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another factor we might not think about in terms of hunger is milk drinking. One of the big changes starting in the early twentieth century was that parents were told they should give kids large amounts of whole milk. For decades, the recommendation was a quart of whole milk a day for kids as young as two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was taking up significant stomach real estate, and all of this contributes to kids being less hungry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, the food itself is also important. What kinds of foods are we feeding kids? What kinds of foods are in the kitchen to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The flood of highly processed foods into many American homes in the mid-twentieth century is another big factor in establishing new expectations for how easy it should be for children to like food.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the past, the idea of acquiring taste was normal. Today, if you hear something is an acquired taste, we think that means it’s an adult food. But in previous generations, kids were acquiring tastes as soon as they were learning to eat. It was happening in early toddlerhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once highly processed foods entered American homes, it became clear there were lots of foods kids didn’t have to acquire a taste for—they liked them instantly. So it became less common for families to teach kids to like foods over time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, psychologists began telling parents that it was psychologically risky to talk too much with their kids about what they should eat.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it sounds like at the same time, these readily available shelf-stable processed foods made it easier to just hand a kid what they wanted—or to create separate meals for them as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Helen Zoe Veit:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. The ease of providing alternative meals when a child didn’t readily want to eat a family meal increased dramatically. It wasn’t like a switch flipped overnight, but it became less and less normal to expect a child to eat the family meal—especially when it’s so easy in many households to say, “Just make yourself a bowl of cereal,” or a PB&J.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, there are class dimensions to this. There are many families who don’t have those options. But for many middle-class and wealthier families, it became easy to offer alternatives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about why American kids are such picky eaters with Helen Zoe Veit. We’ll have more with her—and with you—after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
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"source": "Possible"
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"link": "/radio/program/possible",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
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