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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, January 7 at 10:20 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>President Trump has removed Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro from power, and says the U.S. will now control Venezuela’s massive oil reserves — over 300 billion barrels of crude oil. But can the U.S. actually “take” another country’s oil? And what does this mean for American companies like Chevron and ExxonMobil that have long wanted access to Venezuelan crude? We talk about why the U.S. might keep Venezuela’s existing government in place, the real challenges of extracting Venezuela’s oil resources and how Trump’s use of the Monroe Doctrine is reshaping global politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This segment begins at approximately 13:30 in the audio recording.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"343\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem data-start=\"360\" data-end=\"367\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. President Trump has said the U.S. will run Venezuela and rebuild its oil infrastructure. On his social media platform last night, he posted that Venezuela will turn over between 30 and 50 million barrels of oil, which will then be sold at market price with the proceeds controlled by Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"675\" data-end=\"867\">And this Friday, the heads of major U.S. oil companies — Chevron, Exxon, and others — are scheduled to meet with the president about making significant investments in Venezuela’s oil industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"869\" data-end=\"1162\">To help us wrap our minds around what all this means, I’m joined by Kevin Whitaker, former U.S. ambassador to Colombia and former U.S. deputy chief of mission in Venezuela. He’s currently senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, a nonpartisan think tank. Ambassador Whitaker, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1154\" data-end=\"1161\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1164\" data-end=\"1222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1164\" data-end=\"1183\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me. I’m grateful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1224\" data-end=\"1521\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1224\" data-end=\"1237\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Also with us is Antonia Juhasz, investigative journalist covering energy and the environment for \u003cem data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1368\">Rolling Stone\u003c/em> and other outlets. She’s also the author of several books on the oil industry, including \u003cem data-start=\"1458\" data-end=\"1478\">The Tyranny of Oil\u003c/em>. Antonia, so glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1572\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1542\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1574\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1574\" data-end=\"1587\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Ambassador Whitaker, I’ll start with you. First, your reaction to the announcement last night that Venezuela would turn over up to 50 million barrels of oil. Is this a concession by the regime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"2021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1805\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Well, obviously the Trump administration has laid down that we are in charge of the oil resource at this point. So at that level, it’s not surprising. It seems consistent with what the Trump administration has said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2023\" data-end=\"2177\">The only other thing I noticed is that if it really is 50 million barrels, that’s two or three days of U.S. consumption. So it’s not a huge amount of oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2179\" data-end=\"2280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2179\" data-end=\"2192\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, setting aside the fact that it’s not a huge amount of oil, the fact that Venezuela—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2282\" data-end=\"2608\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2282\" data-end=\"2301\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Secretary Rubio and President Trump have laid out that there are going to be some requirements which the United States will impose on Venezuela. One of those requirements is that the United States will be in charge of the oil resource and will decide where the oil will go — including to the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2610\" data-end=\"2815\">It’s important, obviously, with respect to China, because China is by far the biggest purchaser of Venezuelan oil at this point. So the question will be whether those contracts will continue to be honored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2817\" data-end=\"3064\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2817\" data-end=\"2830\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you say a little more about how you interpret what the president means by “running the country,” while keeping the current regime essentially in place — with Maduro’s vice president, Delcy Rodríguez, now at the top of government?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3085\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> It’s early days, and all very unclear. It seems quite improvised at this point. But there are two main components the administration has spoken about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3269\">One is oil, which we discussed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3271\" data-end=\"3515\">The other is that Venezuela’s foreign relations should be changed to conform with U.S. demands. Secretary Rubio specifically mentioned that the United States has a problem with Venezuelan relations with Iran, Hezbollah, Russia, China, and Cuba.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3517\" data-end=\"3677\">There are press reports now saying that the United States is demanding the expulsion of certain representatives and diplomats of those countries from Venezuela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3692\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well Antonia, I want to ask you — what questions does this act by the regime to turn over 50 million barrels of oil immediately raise for you? How quickly could this happen? Does the welfare of the Venezuelan people even factor into this, as the president has suggested?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3970\" data-end=\"4222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3970\" data-end=\"3989\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So I agree — this isn’t a lot of oil. What we’re talking about is the excess supply of tankers that have built up as a result of the blockade imposed by the Trump administration. Venezuela has run out of places to put its oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4224\" data-end=\"4374\">As we understand it, this was oil originally intended to go to China — and Trump has declared that it will instead go to the United States and to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4376\" data-end=\"4599\">This move is unprecedented. It’s Trump behaving like autocrats he admires — leaders who personally control their oil industries. He essentially likes the idea of a nationalized oil industry, as long as he’s in charge of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4601\" data-end=\"4887\">But I don’t think that’s how this will ultimately play out. I think what Trump has done is remove Maduro — as he pledged to do — but kept the regime infrastructure in place. And the new president, formerly vice president, has been the person most deeply engaged with U.S. oil companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4889\" data-end=\"4952\">So I think the oil industry will gain the access it has craved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4954\" data-end=\"5181\">U.S. oil companies have operated in Venezuela for decades. Some stayed, like Chevron. Others left and had assets expropriated, like Exxon and ConocoPhillips. They will want compensation — and favorable contract terms to return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5183\" data-end=\"5272\">And they will want protection for offshore holdings in Guyana that Venezuela has claimed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5274\" data-end=\"5380\">So this benefits U.S. oil interests. It does not necessarily benefit human rights or Venezuelan democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5382\" data-end=\"5673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5382\" data-end=\"5395\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me bring our listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the president’s focus on Venezuela’s oil or about U.S. oil interests in Venezuela? Also, what do you want to know about the broader role the U.S. is playing — what it means to “run the country”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5675\" data-end=\"5827\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5703\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5829\" data-end=\"6037\">Well, let’s step back a little bit — because there will be challenges for U.S. oil industries. Ambassador Whitaker, can you help us understand the scale of Venezuela’s oil reserves and the type of oil it has?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6039\" data-end=\"6173\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6039\" data-end=\"6058\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Sure. Venezuela currently produces less than a million barrels per day — down from three million twenty years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6175\" data-end=\"6353\">They claim to have reserves of a trillion barrels — of which perhaps 300 billion are recoverable at today’s prices. That would place them among the top oil-rich nations globally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6355\" data-end=\"6535\">However, Venezuelan crude is very heavy, viscous, and sulfurous. That makes it difficult and expensive to extract and refine — especially compared to lighter oils like Saudi crude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6537\" data-end=\"6709\">Oil companies can engineer solutions to below-ground problems. But the above-ground problems — sanctions, legal uncertainty, physical insecurity — are much harder to solve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6711\" data-end=\"6946\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6711\" data-end=\"6724\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Antonia, Ambassador Whitaker is laying out these above-ground problems, and the fact that there would have to be substantial long-term investment. But it sounds like your interpretation is still that industry wants in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6948\" data-end=\"7130\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6948\" data-end=\"6967\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Yes. Oil companies often try to distance themselves publicly from Trump — but when speaking to investors, they emphasize production growth and access to reserves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7132\" data-end=\"7325\">Oil companies are valued not only on what they produce, but on what they can claim as reserves. Venezuela has massive reserves. And oil companies are willing to invest heavily to secure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7327\" data-end=\"7427\">Guyana is a good example — complex, expensive, offshore oil — but Exxon and Chevron still committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7429\" data-end=\"7490\">So yes — they want in. But they want the best possible terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7492\" data-end=\"7881\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7492\" data-end=\"7505\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Antonia Juhasz, investigative journalist, and Ambassador Kevin Whitaker. Noel on Discord writes: “There’s too much oil already. And the oil companies don’t want to invest in updating the Venezuelan oil infrastructure — even now with officials saying U.S. taxpayers will subsidize it. I don’t want that, and I don’t think most Americans would support that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7883\" data-end=\"7969\">Antonia — briefly — why is Chevron especially well-positioned to operate in Venezuela?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7971\" data-end=\"8177\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7971\" data-end=\"7990\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Chevron has been in Venezuela for about a hundred years. They stayed when others left. They have long-standing relationships and infrastructure — and they are committed to the long game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8179\" data-end=\"8279\">They also operate next-door in Guyana — which ties directly into regional security and oil strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8281\" data-end=\"8407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8281\" data-end=\"8294\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> A listener writes: “When gas prices go down — thank you, Trump. The cost of living goes down.” Will we see that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8409\" data-end=\"8465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8409\" data-end=\"8428\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> I don’t think there’s any guarantee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8467\" data-end=\"8616\">Even if Venezuela increases production, that does not necessarily translate into cheaper U.S. gas prices. Oil refined here doesn’t have to stay here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8618\" data-end=\"8723\">We may not see a rapid supply increase. So I don’t expect meaningful price drops simply from this action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8725\" data-end=\"8891\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8725\" data-end=\"8738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking with Antonia Juhasz and Ambassador Kevin Whitaker about the U.S. role in Venezuela and efforts to control Venezuela’s oil industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8893\" data-end=\"9149\">Listeners — what concerns or questions do you have about the president’s focus on Venezuelan oil? And what’s your reaction to Trump’s stated interest in “owning the Western Hemisphere”? What does a return to a sphere-of-influence doctrine bring up for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9151\" data-end=\"9292\">The email address is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9172\" data-end=\"9186\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9294\" data-end=\"9401\">One listener writes: “What if the ‘this is our hemisphere’ policy is good for both Venezuela and the U.S.?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9403\" data-end=\"9416\">Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, January 7 at 10:20 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>President Trump has removed Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro from power, and says the U.S. will now control Venezuela’s massive oil reserves — over 300 billion barrels of crude oil. But can the U.S. actually “take” another country’s oil? And what does this mean for American companies like Chevron and ExxonMobil that have long wanted access to Venezuelan crude? We talk about why the U.S. might keep Venezuela’s existing government in place, the real challenges of extracting Venezuela’s oil resources and how Trump’s use of the Monroe Doctrine is reshaping global politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This segment begins at approximately 13:30 in the audio recording.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"343\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome back to \u003cem data-start=\"360\" data-end=\"367\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. President Trump has said the U.S. will run Venezuela and rebuild its oil infrastructure. On his social media platform last night, he posted that Venezuela will turn over between 30 and 50 million barrels of oil, which will then be sold at market price with the proceeds controlled by Trump.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"675\" data-end=\"867\">And this Friday, the heads of major U.S. oil companies — Chevron, Exxon, and others — are scheduled to meet with the president about making significant investments in Venezuela’s oil industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"869\" data-end=\"1162\">To help us wrap our minds around what all this means, I’m joined by Kevin Whitaker, former U.S. ambassador to Colombia and former U.S. deputy chief of mission in Venezuela. He’s currently senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, a nonpartisan think tank. Ambassador Whitaker, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1154\" data-end=\"1161\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1164\" data-end=\"1222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1164\" data-end=\"1183\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me. I’m grateful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1224\" data-end=\"1521\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1224\" data-end=\"1237\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Also with us is Antonia Juhasz, investigative journalist covering energy and the environment for \u003cem data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1368\">Rolling Stone\u003c/em> and other outlets. She’s also the author of several books on the oil industry, including \u003cem data-start=\"1458\" data-end=\"1478\">The Tyranny of Oil\u003c/em>. Antonia, so glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1572\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1523\" data-end=\"1542\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1574\" data-end=\"1784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1574\" data-end=\"1587\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Ambassador Whitaker, I’ll start with you. First, your reaction to the announcement last night that Venezuela would turn over up to 50 million barrels of oil. Is this a concession by the regime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"2021\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1786\" data-end=\"1805\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Well, obviously the Trump administration has laid down that we are in charge of the oil resource at this point. So at that level, it’s not surprising. It seems consistent with what the Trump administration has said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2023\" data-end=\"2177\">The only other thing I noticed is that if it really is 50 million barrels, that’s two or three days of U.S. consumption. So it’s not a huge amount of oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2179\" data-end=\"2280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2179\" data-end=\"2192\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, setting aside the fact that it’s not a huge amount of oil, the fact that Venezuela—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2282\" data-end=\"2608\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2282\" data-end=\"2301\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Secretary Rubio and President Trump have laid out that there are going to be some requirements which the United States will impose on Venezuela. One of those requirements is that the United States will be in charge of the oil resource and will decide where the oil will go — including to the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2610\" data-end=\"2815\">It’s important, obviously, with respect to China, because China is by far the biggest purchaser of Venezuelan oil at this point. So the question will be whether those contracts will continue to be honored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2817\" data-end=\"3064\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2817\" data-end=\"2830\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you say a little more about how you interpret what the president means by “running the country,” while keeping the current regime essentially in place — with Maduro’s vice president, Delcy Rodríguez, now at the top of government?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3066\" data-end=\"3085\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> It’s early days, and all very unclear. It seems quite improvised at this point. But there are two main components the administration has spoken about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3238\" data-end=\"3269\">One is oil, which we discussed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3271\" data-end=\"3515\">The other is that Venezuela’s foreign relations should be changed to conform with U.S. demands. Secretary Rubio specifically mentioned that the United States has a problem with Venezuelan relations with Iran, Hezbollah, Russia, China, and Cuba.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3517\" data-end=\"3677\">There are press reports now saying that the United States is demanding the expulsion of certain representatives and diplomats of those countries from Venezuela.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3679\" data-end=\"3692\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes. Well Antonia, I want to ask you — what questions does this act by the regime to turn over 50 million barrels of oil immediately raise for you? How quickly could this happen? Does the welfare of the Venezuelan people even factor into this, as the president has suggested?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3970\" data-end=\"4222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3970\" data-end=\"3989\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So I agree — this isn’t a lot of oil. What we’re talking about is the excess supply of tankers that have built up as a result of the blockade imposed by the Trump administration. Venezuela has run out of places to put its oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4224\" data-end=\"4374\">As we understand it, this was oil originally intended to go to China — and Trump has declared that it will instead go to the United States and to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4376\" data-end=\"4599\">This move is unprecedented. It’s Trump behaving like autocrats he admires — leaders who personally control their oil industries. He essentially likes the idea of a nationalized oil industry, as long as he’s in charge of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4601\" data-end=\"4887\">But I don’t think that’s how this will ultimately play out. I think what Trump has done is remove Maduro — as he pledged to do — but kept the regime infrastructure in place. And the new president, formerly vice president, has been the person most deeply engaged with U.S. oil companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4889\" data-end=\"4952\">So I think the oil industry will gain the access it has craved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4954\" data-end=\"5181\">U.S. oil companies have operated in Venezuela for decades. Some stayed, like Chevron. Others left and had assets expropriated, like Exxon and ConocoPhillips. They will want compensation — and favorable contract terms to return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5183\" data-end=\"5272\">And they will want protection for offshore holdings in Guyana that Venezuela has claimed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5274\" data-end=\"5380\">So this benefits U.S. oil interests. It does not necessarily benefit human rights or Venezuelan democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5382\" data-end=\"5673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5382\" data-end=\"5395\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me bring our listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about the president’s focus on Venezuela’s oil or about U.S. oil interests in Venezuela? Also, what do you want to know about the broader role the U.S. is playing — what it means to “run the country”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5675\" data-end=\"5827\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5689\" data-end=\"5703\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5829\" data-end=\"6037\">Well, let’s step back a little bit — because there will be challenges for U.S. oil industries. Ambassador Whitaker, can you help us understand the scale of Venezuela’s oil reserves and the type of oil it has?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6039\" data-end=\"6173\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6039\" data-end=\"6058\">Kevin Whitaker:\u003c/strong> Sure. Venezuela currently produces less than a million barrels per day — down from three million twenty years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6175\" data-end=\"6353\">They claim to have reserves of a trillion barrels — of which perhaps 300 billion are recoverable at today’s prices. That would place them among the top oil-rich nations globally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6355\" data-end=\"6535\">However, Venezuelan crude is very heavy, viscous, and sulfurous. That makes it difficult and expensive to extract and refine — especially compared to lighter oils like Saudi crude.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6537\" data-end=\"6709\">Oil companies can engineer solutions to below-ground problems. But the above-ground problems — sanctions, legal uncertainty, physical insecurity — are much harder to solve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6711\" data-end=\"6946\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6711\" data-end=\"6724\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Antonia, Ambassador Whitaker is laying out these above-ground problems, and the fact that there would have to be substantial long-term investment. But it sounds like your interpretation is still that industry wants in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6948\" data-end=\"7130\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6948\" data-end=\"6967\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Yes. Oil companies often try to distance themselves publicly from Trump — but when speaking to investors, they emphasize production growth and access to reserves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7132\" data-end=\"7325\">Oil companies are valued not only on what they produce, but on what they can claim as reserves. Venezuela has massive reserves. And oil companies are willing to invest heavily to secure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7327\" data-end=\"7427\">Guyana is a good example — complex, expensive, offshore oil — but Exxon and Chevron still committed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7429\" data-end=\"7490\">So yes — they want in. But they want the best possible terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7492\" data-end=\"7881\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7492\" data-end=\"7505\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Antonia Juhasz, investigative journalist, and Ambassador Kevin Whitaker. Noel on Discord writes: “There’s too much oil already. And the oil companies don’t want to invest in updating the Venezuelan oil infrastructure — even now with officials saying U.S. taxpayers will subsidize it. I don’t want that, and I don’t think most Americans would support that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7883\" data-end=\"7969\">Antonia — briefly — why is Chevron especially well-positioned to operate in Venezuela?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7971\" data-end=\"8177\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7971\" data-end=\"7990\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> Chevron has been in Venezuela for about a hundred years. They stayed when others left. They have long-standing relationships and infrastructure — and they are committed to the long game.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8179\" data-end=\"8279\">They also operate next-door in Guyana — which ties directly into regional security and oil strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8281\" data-end=\"8407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8281\" data-end=\"8294\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> A listener writes: “When gas prices go down — thank you, Trump. The cost of living goes down.” Will we see that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8409\" data-end=\"8465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8409\" data-end=\"8428\">Antonia Juhasz:\u003c/strong> I don’t think there’s any guarantee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8467\" data-end=\"8616\">Even if Venezuela increases production, that does not necessarily translate into cheaper U.S. gas prices. Oil refined here doesn’t have to stay here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8618\" data-end=\"8723\">We may not see a rapid supply increase. So I don’t expect meaningful price drops simply from this action.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8725\" data-end=\"8891\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8725\" data-end=\"8738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Again, we’re talking with Antonia Juhasz and Ambassador Kevin Whitaker about the U.S. role in Venezuela and efforts to control Venezuela’s oil industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8893\" data-end=\"9149\">Listeners — what concerns or questions do you have about the president’s focus on Venezuelan oil? And what’s your reaction to Trump’s stated interest in “owning the Western Hemisphere”? What does a return to a sphere-of-influence doctrine bring up for you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9151\" data-end=\"9292\">The email address is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9172\" data-end=\"9186\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9294\" data-end=\"9401\">One listener writes: “What if the ‘this is our hemisphere’ policy is good for both Venezuela and the U.S.?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9403\" data-end=\"9416\">Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, January 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Michigan Senator Elissa Slotkin has been sounding the alarm about creeping authoritarianism, warning of military forces on U.S. streets and extrajudicial killings on the high seas. Now, following a military raid that captured Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, those warnings feel newly urgent. Slotkin joins us to discuss what the Maduro operation reveals about presidential power, and what Congressional oversight mechanisms are available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"563\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"327\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"339\" data-end=\"346\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Michigan Senator Elissa Slotkin has been sounding alarms about the Trump administration’s campaign in Venezuela long before the president’s military raid that captured Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"565\" data-end=\"895\">Slotkin, who served three tours of duty in Iraq as a CIA analyst and worked in national security roles at the Pentagon, called the raid part of the signature trend of Trump’s presidency — quote, “relentless focus on foreign entanglements and looking tough abroad so as to distract from what’s happening to Americans’ pocketbooks.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"897\" data-end=\"946\">Senator Slotkin joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"938\" data-end=\"945\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"948\" data-end=\"989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"948\" data-end=\"967\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"991\" data-end=\"1256\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"991\" data-end=\"1004\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Senator, you’ve just received a briefing from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, among other top administration officials, all about the situation in Venezuela. I understand it’s classified, but what can you tell us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1258\" data-end=\"1491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1258\" data-end=\"1277\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Well, look. First and foremost, it was a long description of the sophisticated operation that was involved. So separate from the politics of this, the military did a truly incredible job at pulling this thing off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1493\" data-end=\"1816\">But then we had lots of questions, as you can imagine, about what happens the day after — what happens now. Particularly someone like me, who served in places like Iraq — you know there can be big celebrations when something goes right at the beginning, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where we’re going to end up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1961\">And I think there was a lot of discussion and a lot of questions — not a lot of answers — on what comes next. A lot of questions about the oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1963\" data-end=\"2310\">President Trump has been, frankly, much more transparent than President Bush ever was on the issue of oil and going after Venezuela because of the oil. He’s made no secret of that. So what does that mean? Are we going to have U.S. forces protecting folks in the oil industry? Facilitating oil executives? What is the nature of our support to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2312\" data-end=\"2354\">Lots of questions. Fewer, thinner answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2356\" data-end=\"2805\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2356\" data-end=\"2369\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes — interested in what assurances you were seeking from that briefing and whether or not you got them. But also your reaction to statements that the president and his energy secretary have made — the president saying that Venezuela will turn over 30 to 50 million barrels of oil to the U.S., which will be controlled by him with regard to proceeds, and the energy secretary saying the administration would indefinitely run oil sales.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2807\" data-end=\"3128\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2807\" data-end=\"2826\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, look — I think this is a pretty different view of foreign policy than American presidents on both sides of the aisle have typically taken. This is a very transparent financial interest in this country — and looking tough. I think the power projection is important here for the president.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3130\" data-end=\"3500\">And I said it back in that speech you were quoting, and I believe it even more firmly today: this president has gone into military operations in nine different parts of the world — seven countries and two oceans — more than any single president in history in their first year. And this was the guy who literally ran on “no forever wars,” “no more foreign entanglements.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3502\" data-end=\"3715\">I think the entire thing is just a big hand-wave for him to look tough and look like he’s commander-in-chief because he has no game domestically. He has no plans on things like housing or health care or inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3717\" data-end=\"3927\">So you can imagine there were also lots of questions about other places around the world he’s been signaling interest in — Cuba, Colombia, Greenland. What kind of military planning is going on for these places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3929\" data-end=\"4213\">And if you’re sitting at the Pentagon — or frankly, just an American citizen — you’ve got to believe him when he starts talking about a country over and over again. You’ve got to believe that he is absolutely willing to use military force to take what he wants out of those countries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4215\" data-end=\"4280\">So it’s a very different doctrine — foreign rather than domestic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4282\" data-end=\"4422\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4282\" data-end=\"4295\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are you okay with that? You’re on the Armed Services Committee. What levers, if any, do you feel like can be pulled right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4424\" data-end=\"4540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4424\" data-end=\"4443\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Obviously, no — I’m not okay with it. Certainly someone like me who has spent time in war zones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"5087\">My experience on the Armed Services Committee is that you’ve got a number of folks on both sides of the aisle who are very serious about national security issues. But my Republican colleagues have all but abdicated their oversight responsibilities. They have basically thrown their hands up and said, “You know what? It’s okay that we haven’t had a single public hearing on Venezuela and the strikes in the Caribbean. It’s okay that we don’t have accountability over the president on national security matters as called for in the Constitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5089\" data-end=\"5119\">They have abdicated that role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5121\" data-end=\"5417\">And I think about what John McCain would be doing if he were back as chairman of the Armed Services Committee. He must be rolling over in his grave — one, because of this foreign adventurism and the money we’re spending on these engagements, but also the absolute shriveling of the Senate’s role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5419\" data-end=\"5605\">So no — I’m not okay with it. But Republicans control the House and Senate, and they chair these committees. And I can’t make them stand up and own their constitutional responsibilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5768\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You answered my next question, which was whether you sensed a red line from your colleagues across the aisle. And it sounds like your answer is no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5770\" data-end=\"6055\">Well, Senator, in October you said you were “popping a flare” about authoritarianism — specifically warning about certain U.S. military tactics this administration was using in its boat strikes that could be turned inward and used domestically. What specifically were you referring to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6057\" data-end=\"6312\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6057\" data-end=\"6076\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> So I think if you review the record — starting back in September when the strikes started happening in the Caribbean and Pacific — the administration said we are now in conflict, in a war, with a list of drug trafficking organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6314\" data-end=\"6417\">Okay — so we ask, “Is that list five? Twenty-five? Fifty?” They will not publicly acknowledge the list.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6419\" data-end=\"6481\">To me, a secret list of groups we are at war with — not great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6483\" data-end=\"6547\">Then you ask: what’s the legal justification? That’s classified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6549\" data-end=\"6604\">Then: what intelligence are you using? Also classified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6606\" data-end=\"6673\">So we have a secret list, secret legal justification, secret intel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6675\" data-end=\"6870\">At the same time, the president issued a new executive order on domestic terrorist organizations — asking DOJ to produce a list, and to use the full weight of the federal government against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6872\" data-end=\"6937\">So my question is: will there also now be a secret domestic list? And what tools will be used? As a former CIA officer, I know very clearly what is illegal. And this combination really set off alarm bells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7081\" data-end=\"7189\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7081\" data-end=\"7094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know those rules — but you are just as concerned that this administration may ignore them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7191\" data-end=\"7407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7191\" data-end=\"7210\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Yes. I cannot say with a straight face that they will not do domestically exactly what they have done internationally — because they have not been transparent, and we do not have strong oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7409\" data-end=\"7564\">And I’m trying to get the intelligence community on the record stating: “We will not use intelligence agencies against American citizens on American soil.” We have not gotten that yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7596\" data-end=\"7991\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7596\" data-end=\"7609\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> In addition, you were deemed by the president as “seditious.” He went on to say on social media that it was punishable by death — for appearing in a video with other Democratic lawmakers with military experience telling service members they do not have to follow unlawful orders. And this week, Defense Secretary Hegseth censured Senator Mark Kelly for participating in that video.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7993\" data-end=\"8026\">What does this response tell you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8028\" data-end=\"8162\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8028\" data-end=\"8047\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> This is a concerted effort by the president and his team to send a message: if you speak up, you will be punished. When the president of the United States calls for you to be hanged — that unleashes thousands of threats. Against you. Your family. Your staff. I required 24/7 security. And there is still a federal legal inquiry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8381\" data-end=\"8466\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8381\" data-end=\"8394\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Michigan Senator Elissa Slotkin, thank you so much for talking with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8468\" data-end=\"8498\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8468\" data-end=\"8487\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8500\" data-end=\"8556\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8500\" data-end=\"8513\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You’re listening to \u003cem data-start=\"8534\" data-end=\"8541\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"563\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"314\" data-end=\"327\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"339\" data-end=\"346\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Michigan Senator Elissa Slotkin has been sounding alarms about the Trump administration’s campaign in Venezuela long before the president’s military raid that captured Venezuelan leader Nicolás Maduro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"565\" data-end=\"895\">Slotkin, who served three tours of duty in Iraq as a CIA analyst and worked in national security roles at the Pentagon, called the raid part of the signature trend of Trump’s presidency — quote, “relentless focus on foreign entanglements and looking tough abroad so as to distract from what’s happening to Americans’ pocketbooks.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"897\" data-end=\"946\">Senator Slotkin joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"938\" data-end=\"945\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"948\" data-end=\"989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"948\" data-end=\"967\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"991\" data-end=\"1256\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"991\" data-end=\"1004\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So Senator, you’ve just received a briefing from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, among other top administration officials, all about the situation in Venezuela. I understand it’s classified, but what can you tell us?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1258\" data-end=\"1491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1258\" data-end=\"1277\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Well, look. First and foremost, it was a long description of the sophisticated operation that was involved. So separate from the politics of this, the military did a truly incredible job at pulling this thing off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1493\" data-end=\"1816\">But then we had lots of questions, as you can imagine, about what happens the day after — what happens now. Particularly someone like me, who served in places like Iraq — you know there can be big celebrations when something goes right at the beginning, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where we’re going to end up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1961\">And I think there was a lot of discussion and a lot of questions — not a lot of answers — on what comes next. A lot of questions about the oil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1963\" data-end=\"2310\">President Trump has been, frankly, much more transparent than President Bush ever was on the issue of oil and going after Venezuela because of the oil. He’s made no secret of that. So what does that mean? Are we going to have U.S. forces protecting folks in the oil industry? Facilitating oil executives? What is the nature of our support to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2312\" data-end=\"2354\">Lots of questions. Fewer, thinner answers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2356\" data-end=\"2805\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2356\" data-end=\"2369\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yes — interested in what assurances you were seeking from that briefing and whether or not you got them. But also your reaction to statements that the president and his energy secretary have made — the president saying that Venezuela will turn over 30 to 50 million barrels of oil to the U.S., which will be controlled by him with regard to proceeds, and the energy secretary saying the administration would indefinitely run oil sales.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2807\" data-end=\"3128\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2807\" data-end=\"2826\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, look — I think this is a pretty different view of foreign policy than American presidents on both sides of the aisle have typically taken. This is a very transparent financial interest in this country — and looking tough. I think the power projection is important here for the president.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3130\" data-end=\"3500\">And I said it back in that speech you were quoting, and I believe it even more firmly today: this president has gone into military operations in nine different parts of the world — seven countries and two oceans — more than any single president in history in their first year. And this was the guy who literally ran on “no forever wars,” “no more foreign entanglements.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3502\" data-end=\"3715\">I think the entire thing is just a big hand-wave for him to look tough and look like he’s commander-in-chief because he has no game domestically. He has no plans on things like housing or health care or inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3717\" data-end=\"3927\">So you can imagine there were also lots of questions about other places around the world he’s been signaling interest in — Cuba, Colombia, Greenland. What kind of military planning is going on for these places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3929\" data-end=\"4213\">And if you’re sitting at the Pentagon — or frankly, just an American citizen — you’ve got to believe him when he starts talking about a country over and over again. You’ve got to believe that he is absolutely willing to use military force to take what he wants out of those countries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4215\" data-end=\"4280\">So it’s a very different doctrine — foreign rather than domestic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4282\" data-end=\"4422\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4282\" data-end=\"4295\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Are you okay with that? You’re on the Armed Services Committee. What levers, if any, do you feel like can be pulled right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4424\" data-end=\"4540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4424\" data-end=\"4443\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Obviously, no — I’m not okay with it. Certainly someone like me who has spent time in war zones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"5087\">My experience on the Armed Services Committee is that you’ve got a number of folks on both sides of the aisle who are very serious about national security issues. But my Republican colleagues have all but abdicated their oversight responsibilities. They have basically thrown their hands up and said, “You know what? It’s okay that we haven’t had a single public hearing on Venezuela and the strikes in the Caribbean. It’s okay that we don’t have accountability over the president on national security matters as called for in the Constitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5089\" data-end=\"5119\">They have abdicated that role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5121\" data-end=\"5417\">And I think about what John McCain would be doing if he were back as chairman of the Armed Services Committee. He must be rolling over in his grave — one, because of this foreign adventurism and the money we’re spending on these engagements, but also the absolute shriveling of the Senate’s role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5419\" data-end=\"5605\">So no — I’m not okay with it. But Republicans control the House and Senate, and they chair these committees. And I can’t make them stand up and own their constitutional responsibilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5768\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5607\" data-end=\"5620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You answered my next question, which was whether you sensed a red line from your colleagues across the aisle. And it sounds like your answer is no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5770\" data-end=\"6055\">Well, Senator, in October you said you were “popping a flare” about authoritarianism — specifically warning about certain U.S. military tactics this administration was using in its boat strikes that could be turned inward and used domestically. What specifically were you referring to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6057\" data-end=\"6312\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6057\" data-end=\"6076\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> So I think if you review the record — starting back in September when the strikes started happening in the Caribbean and Pacific — the administration said we are now in conflict, in a war, with a list of drug trafficking organizations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6314\" data-end=\"6417\">Okay — so we ask, “Is that list five? Twenty-five? Fifty?” They will not publicly acknowledge the list.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6419\" data-end=\"6481\">To me, a secret list of groups we are at war with — not great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6483\" data-end=\"6547\">Then you ask: what’s the legal justification? That’s classified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6549\" data-end=\"6604\">Then: what intelligence are you using? Also classified.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6606\" data-end=\"6673\">So we have a secret list, secret legal justification, secret intel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6675\" data-end=\"6870\">At the same time, the president issued a new executive order on domestic terrorist organizations — asking DOJ to produce a list, and to use the full weight of the federal government against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6872\" data-end=\"6937\">So my question is: will there also now be a secret domestic list? And what tools will be used? As a former CIA officer, I know very clearly what is illegal. And this combination really set off alarm bells.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7081\" data-end=\"7189\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7081\" data-end=\"7094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You know those rules — but you are just as concerned that this administration may ignore them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7191\" data-end=\"7407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7191\" data-end=\"7210\">Elissa Slotkin:\u003c/strong> Yes. I cannot say with a straight face that they will not do domestically exactly what they have done internationally — because they have not been transparent, and we do not have strong oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7409\" data-end=\"7564\">And I’m trying to get the intelligence community on the record stating: “We will not use intelligence agencies against American citizens on American soil.” We have not gotten that yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7596\" data-end=\"7991\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7596\" data-end=\"7609\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> In addition, you were deemed by the president as “seditious.” He went on to say on social media that it was punishable by death — for appearing in a video with other Democratic lawmakers with military experience telling service members they do not have to follow unlawful orders. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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