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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>President Trump backed down from his social media threat that “a whole civilization will die” after Pakistan helped broker a ceasefire deal with Iran. But the United States is likely to remain isolated from its allies as many look for economic and diplomatic solutions to the conflict that do not involve America. We’ll talk about the latest developments in the war and the consequences of America’s growing isolation from its allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-(--header-height)\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"a64430e6-07de-4d9d-8771-18fa7de6bee2\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-3\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\" data-turn=\"user\">\u003c/section>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:fa783f95-418f-4c91-8311-762c0dbf9fee-1\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-4\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-xs,calc(var(--spacing)*4))] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-sm,calc(var(--spacing)*6))] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-lg,calc(var(--spacing)*16))] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col gap-4 grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal outline-none keyboard-focused:focus-ring [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"41f1de1a-982f-434b-a405-49c088ee8145\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-3\" data-turn-start-message=\"true\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"361\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A ceasefire agreement between the U.S. and Iran, brokered by Pakistan, has been met with relief—and the hope that it will buy time for both sides to work out a permanent deal. But whether the two-week ceasefire will hold, and whether the war’s cascading global effects can be contained, remain deeply uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"640\">Iran says it will only allow safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz under coordination with its military. Israel is denying the ceasefire includes its military campaign in Lebanon. And both the legality and morality of the U.S.’s conduct and rhetoric are being questioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"642\" data-end=\"820\">We take a closer look at the war’s recent developments and its broader consequences. Joining me for the latest, Idrees Kahloon, staff writer at \u003cem data-start=\"786\" data-end=\"800\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>. Welcome, Idrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"865\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"841\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"867\" data-end=\"993\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"867\" data-end=\"880\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, Edward Wong, diplomatic correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"936\" data-end=\"956\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Edward, glad to have you as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"995\" data-end=\"1053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"995\" data-end=\"1011\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Hi. It’s great to join you again, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1055\" data-end=\"1351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1055\" data-end=\"1068\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me start with you. Yesterday, Trump, in announcing the deal and backing off his threats, said on social media that Iran had presented a 10-point peace plan that was, quote, “a workable basis for negotiation.” What can you tell us about the terms of the ceasefire deal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1615\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1369\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> I think there’s still a lot of opacity around this, and we’re getting conflicting messages today. So I don’t think we can take what Trump said yesterday evening at face value, because he and the White House have already reversed on that today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1617\" data-end=\"2052\">This 10-point plan he mentioned last night is one Iran had presented via Pakistan to the U.S. Much of it mirrors a proposal already given to the U.S. through mediators earlier. It includes demands such as Iran retaining control of the Strait of Hormuz, receiving reparations for war damage, and maintaining the right to enrich uranium. These are generally what American and Israeli officials would consider fairly maximalist demands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2054\" data-end=\"2337\">Now today, Trump and the White House said they’re working off a different proposal—that the 10-point plan Iran has publicly referenced is not the one the U.S. will negotiate from. The U.S. hasn’t provided details about its own demands, so there’s still a lot we’re trying to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2339\" data-end=\"2489\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2339\" data-end=\"2352\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. So there may be another 10-point plan, and what we heard was Iran putting forward the one it wants as the basis for negotiations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2491\" data-end=\"2655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2491\" data-end=\"2507\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. But that’s also the one Iran says it previously presented to the Americans via Pakistan. So there’s a lot of confusion right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2657\" data-end=\"2852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2657\" data-end=\"2670\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What has Israel said about this ceasefire deal? We know it says it will abide by it, but also that it doesn’t include its military campaign in Lebanon—while Pakistan says it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2854\" data-end=\"3188\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2854\" data-end=\"2870\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Right, and that’s probably the shakiest part of the agreement—the area that could jeopardize the ceasefire. Israel is continuing its invasion of Lebanon and likely intends to occupy southern Lebanon. Pakistan has said that fighting in Lebanon is supposed to be included in the ceasefire, and Iran has said the same.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3342\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3203\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there anything else the U.S. is doing that adds to the fragility of this ceasefire, beyond the conflicting statements about the plan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3344\" data-end=\"3622\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3344\" data-end=\"3360\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Right now, in terms of direct combat operations, the ceasefire is largely holding between Iran and the U.S. But Iran continues to attack some countries in the region—it’s launched missiles and drones at places like Kuwait. So its behavior is somewhat tenuous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3624\" data-end=\"3819\">And much of how the U.S. approach is interpreted will depend on what Trump says. He’s made fairly incendiary statements in recent days on Truth Social, and we’ll see what he says going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3821\" data-end=\"4095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3821\" data-end=\"3834\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things Iran said after the deal is that it will cease what it called its defensive operations for two weeks, and that safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz will be possible with coordination from its armed forces. Is the strait open right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4097\" data-end=\"4439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4097\" data-end=\"4113\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> There are definitely ships going through the strait, and the Iranian military never fully closed it. What it did was allow certain ships safe passage—for example, those bound for China carrying oil, since China is a partner. At one point, it also allowed Pakistani-flagged ships through once Pakistan became a key mediator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4441\" data-end=\"4620\">So ships are crossing now. The question is whether the full backlog of vessels waiting to pass will be allowed through in the coming days. That’s something everyone is watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4622\" data-end=\"4849\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4622\" data-end=\"4635\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Just to clarify: Iran didn’t have control of the strait before the war, right? So one of the things it has gained de facto through this ceasefire is continued control—almost formalizing it, at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4851\" data-end=\"5107\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4851\" data-end=\"4867\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> I think the U.S. will push back on that. There is de facto control right now, but there’s been de facto control throughout the war. Once Iran began attacking ships, operators avoided the strait unless they had assurances of safe passage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5231\">Ultimately, it will be up to shipping companies, insurers, and others to decide whether they feel safe using the strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5246\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. How do you interpret the president’s decision to call off the attack and agree to a ceasefire? Do you think it will hold—or lead to a permanent peace deal? And what are your thoughts on Trump’s threats and rhetoric leading up to this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5539\" data-end=\"5662\">You can email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5559\" data-end=\"5573\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram @KQEDForum, or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5664\" data-end=\"5775\">Idrees, I’ll put that question to you as well—do you think this ceasefire will hold over the two-week period?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5777\" data-end=\"6047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5777\" data-end=\"5796\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> What we’re seeing right now are sustained Israeli attacks on Lebanon, and Gulf countries say they’re still receiving drone attacks from Iran. So I think it’s incredibly fragile. I don’t know that it will last beyond the two weeks—if even that long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6049\" data-end=\"6403\">You also see both Iran and the U.S. making maximalist claims about what they’ve achieved. That often happens with ceasefires. But the key outcome here is that it avoided the self-imposed deadline Trump had set, where he threatened a massive attack and even “civilizational erasure” of Iran. Taking that off the table, at least for now, is a good thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6405\" data-end=\"6506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6405\" data-end=\"6418\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Both sides are claiming wins, but what do you think the U.S. has materially achieved?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6508\" data-end=\"6743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6508\" data-end=\"6527\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to say. Before the war, the Strait of Hormuz allowed free passage of oil and goods. Iran didn’t assert the level of control it does now. Saying Iran has given that up suggests a return to the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6745\" data-end=\"7040\">Militarily, the U.S. has inflicted significant damage—killing Iran’s supreme leader and much of its defense and intelligence leadership, alongside Israel. But in terms of broader goals, like regime change, there’s no indication that’s any closer. The new leadership is closely tied to the old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7042\" data-end=\"7153\">So while there may be tactical or military gains, it’s harder to argue there have been major strategic gains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7448\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7168\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Some analysts say that while the U.S. may have hurt Iran militarily, it may have hurt itself in other ways—through loss of life, rising energy costs, and questions about control of the strait. There’s also the question of America’s standing in the world. Can you speak to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7450\" data-end=\"7736\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7450\" data-end=\"7469\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> Historically, U.S. presidents have framed foreign policy actions in terms of international law or humanitarian goals. Trump has acted more on raw assertions of military power, in a way people often associate with how China might behave—arbitrarily or capriciously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7738\" data-end=\"8017\">There’s also the process: the attack happened without consultation with key allies, many of whom are directly affected by rising energy costs. Trump has criticized NATO allies as a “paper tiger,” even as those relationships were already strained by tariffs and other pressures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8019\" data-end=\"8111\">All of this has added another layer of tension to those alliances, and that’s significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8113\" data-end=\"8331\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8113\" data-end=\"8126\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Idrees Kahloon, staff writer at \u003cem data-start=\"8178\" data-end=\"8192\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Edward Wong, diplomatic correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"8239\" data-end=\"8259\">The New York Times\u003c/em> and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8274\" data-end=\"8328\">At the Edge of Empire: Families Reckoning with China\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8333\" data-end=\"8607\">Today we’re discussing the temporary ceasefire that took hold after President Trump threatened to “wipe out Iranian civilization” if the Strait of Hormuz wasn’t reopened. We’re also looking at the broader impacts of the war, including U.S. conduct and global consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8609\" data-end=\"8698\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll have more with our guests—and with you—after the break. Stay with us. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>President Trump backed down from his social media threat that “a whole civilization will die” after Pakistan helped broker a ceasefire deal with Iran. But the United States is likely to remain isolated from its allies as many look for economic and diplomatic solutions to the conflict that do not involve America. We’ll talk about the latest developments in the war and the consequences of America’s growing isolation from its allies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-(--header-height)\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"a64430e6-07de-4d9d-8771-18fa7de6bee2\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-3\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\" data-turn=\"user\">\u003c/section>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:fa783f95-418f-4c91-8311-762c0dbf9fee-1\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-4\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-xs,calc(var(--spacing)*4))] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-sm,calc(var(--spacing)*6))] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-lg,calc(var(--spacing)*16))] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col gap-4 grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal outline-none keyboard-focused:focus-ring [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"41f1de1a-982f-434b-a405-49c088ee8145\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-3\" data-turn-start-message=\"true\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"361\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A ceasefire agreement between the U.S. and Iran, brokered by Pakistan, has been met with relief—and the hope that it will buy time for both sides to work out a permanent deal. But whether the two-week ceasefire will hold, and whether the war’s cascading global effects can be contained, remain deeply uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"640\">Iran says it will only allow safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz under coordination with its military. Israel is denying the ceasefire includes its military campaign in Lebanon. And both the legality and morality of the U.S.’s conduct and rhetoric are being questioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"642\" data-end=\"820\">We take a closer look at the war’s recent developments and its broader consequences. Joining me for the latest, Idrees Kahloon, staff writer at \u003cem data-start=\"786\" data-end=\"800\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>. Welcome, Idrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"865\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"822\" data-end=\"841\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"867\" data-end=\"993\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"867\" data-end=\"880\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us, Edward Wong, diplomatic correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"936\" data-end=\"956\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Edward, glad to have you as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"995\" data-end=\"1053\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"995\" data-end=\"1011\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Hi. It’s great to join you again, Mina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1055\" data-end=\"1351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1055\" data-end=\"1068\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me start with you. Yesterday, Trump, in announcing the deal and backing off his threats, said on social media that Iran had presented a 10-point peace plan that was, quote, “a workable basis for negotiation.” What can you tell us about the terms of the ceasefire deal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1615\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1353\" data-end=\"1369\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> I think there’s still a lot of opacity around this, and we’re getting conflicting messages today. So I don’t think we can take what Trump said yesterday evening at face value, because he and the White House have already reversed on that today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1617\" data-end=\"2052\">This 10-point plan he mentioned last night is one Iran had presented via Pakistan to the U.S. Much of it mirrors a proposal already given to the U.S. through mediators earlier. It includes demands such as Iran retaining control of the Strait of Hormuz, receiving reparations for war damage, and maintaining the right to enrich uranium. These are generally what American and Israeli officials would consider fairly maximalist demands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2054\" data-end=\"2337\">Now today, Trump and the White House said they’re working off a different proposal—that the 10-point plan Iran has publicly referenced is not the one the U.S. will negotiate from. The U.S. hasn’t provided details about its own demands, so there’s still a lot we’re trying to learn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2339\" data-end=\"2489\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2339\" data-end=\"2352\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow. So there may be another 10-point plan, and what we heard was Iran putting forward the one it wants as the basis for negotiations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2491\" data-end=\"2655\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2491\" data-end=\"2507\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> That’s correct. But that’s also the one Iran says it previously presented to the Americans via Pakistan. So there’s a lot of confusion right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2657\" data-end=\"2852\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2657\" data-end=\"2670\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What has Israel said about this ceasefire deal? We know it says it will abide by it, but also that it doesn’t include its military campaign in Lebanon—while Pakistan says it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2854\" data-end=\"3188\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2854\" data-end=\"2870\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Right, and that’s probably the shakiest part of the agreement—the area that could jeopardize the ceasefire. Israel is continuing its invasion of Lebanon and likely intends to occupy southern Lebanon. Pakistan has said that fighting in Lebanon is supposed to be included in the ceasefire, and Iran has said the same.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3342\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3190\" data-end=\"3203\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there anything else the U.S. is doing that adds to the fragility of this ceasefire, beyond the conflicting statements about the plan?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3344\" data-end=\"3622\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3344\" data-end=\"3360\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> Right now, in terms of direct combat operations, the ceasefire is largely holding between Iran and the U.S. But Iran continues to attack some countries in the region—it’s launched missiles and drones at places like Kuwait. So its behavior is somewhat tenuous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3624\" data-end=\"3819\">And much of how the U.S. approach is interpreted will depend on what Trump says. He’s made fairly incendiary statements in recent days on Truth Social, and we’ll see what he says going forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3821\" data-end=\"4095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3821\" data-end=\"3834\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One of the things Iran said after the deal is that it will cease what it called its defensive operations for two weeks, and that safe passage through the Strait of Hormuz will be possible with coordination from its armed forces. Is the strait open right now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4097\" data-end=\"4439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4097\" data-end=\"4113\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> There are definitely ships going through the strait, and the Iranian military never fully closed it. What it did was allow certain ships safe passage—for example, those bound for China carrying oil, since China is a partner. At one point, it also allowed Pakistani-flagged ships through once Pakistan became a key mediator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4441\" data-end=\"4620\">So ships are crossing now. The question is whether the full backlog of vessels waiting to pass will be allowed through in the coming days. That’s something everyone is watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4622\" data-end=\"4849\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4622\" data-end=\"4635\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Just to clarify: Iran didn’t have control of the strait before the war, right? So one of the things it has gained de facto through this ceasefire is continued control—almost formalizing it, at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4851\" data-end=\"5107\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4851\" data-end=\"4867\">Edward Wong:\u003c/strong> I think the U.S. will push back on that. There is de facto control right now, but there’s been de facto control throughout the war. Once Iran began attacking ships, operators avoided the strait unless they had assurances of safe passage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5231\">Ultimately, it will be up to shipping companies, insurers, and others to decide whether they feel safe using the strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5233\" data-end=\"5246\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. How do you interpret the president’s decision to call off the attack and agree to a ceasefire? Do you think it will hold—or lead to a permanent peace deal? And what are your thoughts on Trump’s threats and rhetoric leading up to this moment?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5539\" data-end=\"5662\">You can email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5559\" data-end=\"5573\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram @KQEDForum, or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5664\" data-end=\"5775\">Idrees, I’ll put that question to you as well—do you think this ceasefire will hold over the two-week period?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5777\" data-end=\"6047\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5777\" data-end=\"5796\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> What we’re seeing right now are sustained Israeli attacks on Lebanon, and Gulf countries say they’re still receiving drone attacks from Iran. So I think it’s incredibly fragile. I don’t know that it will last beyond the two weeks—if even that long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6049\" data-end=\"6403\">You also see both Iran and the U.S. making maximalist claims about what they’ve achieved. That often happens with ceasefires. But the key outcome here is that it avoided the self-imposed deadline Trump had set, where he threatened a massive attack and even “civilizational erasure” of Iran. Taking that off the table, at least for now, is a good thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6405\" data-end=\"6506\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6405\" data-end=\"6418\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Both sides are claiming wins, but what do you think the U.S. has materially achieved?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6508\" data-end=\"6743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6508\" data-end=\"6527\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to say. Before the war, the Strait of Hormuz allowed free passage of oil and goods. Iran didn’t assert the level of control it does now. Saying Iran has given that up suggests a return to the status quo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6745\" data-end=\"7040\">Militarily, the U.S. has inflicted significant damage—killing Iran’s supreme leader and much of its defense and intelligence leadership, alongside Israel. But in terms of broader goals, like regime change, there’s no indication that’s any closer. The new leadership is closely tied to the old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7042\" data-end=\"7153\">So while there may be tactical or military gains, it’s harder to argue there have been major strategic gains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7448\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7168\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Some analysts say that while the U.S. may have hurt Iran militarily, it may have hurt itself in other ways—through loss of life, rising energy costs, and questions about control of the strait. There’s also the question of America’s standing in the world. Can you speak to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7450\" data-end=\"7736\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7450\" data-end=\"7469\">Idrees Kahloon:\u003c/strong> Historically, U.S. presidents have framed foreign policy actions in terms of international law or humanitarian goals. Trump has acted more on raw assertions of military power, in a way people often associate with how China might behave—arbitrarily or capriciously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7738\" data-end=\"8017\">There’s also the process: the attack happened without consultation with key allies, many of whom are directly affected by rising energy costs. Trump has criticized NATO allies as a “paper tiger,” even as those relationships were already strained by tariffs and other pressures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8019\" data-end=\"8111\">All of this has added another layer of tension to those alliances, and that’s significant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8113\" data-end=\"8331\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8113\" data-end=\"8126\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Idrees Kahloon, staff writer at \u003cem data-start=\"8178\" data-end=\"8192\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>, and Edward Wong, diplomatic correspondent at \u003cem data-start=\"8239\" data-end=\"8259\">The New York Times\u003c/em> and author of \u003cem data-start=\"8274\" data-end=\"8328\">At the Edge of Empire: Families Reckoning with China\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8333\" data-end=\"8607\">Today we’re discussing the temporary ceasefire that took hold after President Trump threatened to “wipe out Iranian civilization” if the Strait of Hormuz wasn’t reopened. We’re also looking at the broader impacts of the war, including U.S. conduct and global consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8609\" data-end=\"8698\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll have more with our guests—and with you—after the break. Stay with us. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 8 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>High level talks between Cuba and the U.S. are ongoing as the Trump administration’s four-month oil blockade of the island nation continues. Trump has said he wants a “friendly takeover” of Cuba, but it’s unclear what the U.S. stands to gain or what kind of government could come to power if the current administration leaves. While the U.S. has had an embargo against Cuba since 1960, the recent blockade has raised the stakes and forced many of the country’s nearly 10 million people to go without power, water, food, health care and other necessities. We’ll talk about how Cuba is dealing with the worst humanitarian crisis it has faced in decades and what the Trump Administration ultimately wants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"437\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. For decades, the United States has treated Cuba as a special case—from the crackpot 1960s CIA schemes to kill Fidel Castro, to the extremely generous immigration policy for Cuban arrivals on American shores, to the opening of relations during the Obama administration. The U.S. has never quite known how to approach the nominally communist country off the coast of Florida.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"439\" data-end=\"662\">The second Trump administration, however, has taken unprecedented economic steps to isolate the island, and Donald Trump himself is talking about Cuba in ways that no previous American president has—or could even imagine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"664\" data-end=\"982\">Here to discuss what’s happening in the country and what the U.S. government might actually want, we’re joined by two experts on Cuba and U.S.-Cuba relations. We’re joined by Michael J. Bustamante, associate professor of history and director of the Cuban Studies Program at the University of Miami. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"984\" data-end=\"1034\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"984\" data-end=\"1010\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1056\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Jen Triplett, assistant professor of sociology and a researcher focused on Latin America at the University of Colorado Boulder. Welcome, Jen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1221\" data-end=\"1258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1221\" data-end=\"1238\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1514\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1280\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Bustamante, why don’t you bring us up to date on what’s happened in 2025? We’re going to go back further in time—you kind of have to here—but let’s start with what’s happened since the Trump administration came into office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1516\" data-end=\"1815\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1516\" data-end=\"1542\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Sure. The Trump administration came into office with Cuba already in a deep crisis—and not to get ahead of your question by going further back—but Cuba has had a very difficult run, at the very least since the pandemic and, in fact, since the first Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1817\" data-end=\"2289\">So when this administration comes in, they sense there’s an opportunity—that the Cuban government has its back against the wall. One of the really striking things they did early on in 2025 vis-à-vis Cuba was tighten immigration policy for Cubans. Many of the unprecedented number of Cubans who had come to the United States under the Biden administration lost their status. There are about 500,000 Cubans today in immigration limbo. Many are being detained and deported.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2291\" data-end=\"2575\">That’s part and parcel of what’s evolved into a broader “maximum pressure” strategy on the island. The theory is that you want to create pressure on the Cuban economy, and you can’t let people leave either. That’s only accelerated since 2026 and the ouster of Maduro, and I suppose—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2577\" data-end=\"2830\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2577\" data-end=\"2597\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll get into all of that. I’m curious, though: the U.S. has maintained an embargo—or blockade, in some sense—on Cuba for a very long time. So how has that apparatus actually changed during the Trump administration’s second term?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2832\" data-end=\"3225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2832\" data-end=\"2858\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> In a way, at least before 2026, not a ton. And part of that is because, going back to the Obama administration—which you mentioned in your lead-in—there was a historic effort not to undo the embargo completely, because the president can’t; it’s codified under U.S. law. But there was an effort to poke more holes in it through executive authority than ever before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3227\" data-end=\"3485\">The first Trump administration put a lot of that back in the box, so to speak. The Biden administration only tweaked things at the margins. So when this new administration comes in, a lot of the tools from the first Trump administration are still in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3487\" data-end=\"3889\">It’s been somewhat surprising that the administration hasn’t gone after some measures used in more sanctions-forward eras—cutting down flights or creating a new cap on remittances. They haven’t done that. They did slap Cuba back onto the state sponsors of terrorism list, which it had come off for about a minute in the last week of the Biden administration. So it’s almost as if that never happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3891\" data-end=\"3998\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3891\" data-end=\"3911\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But what they have done is stop oil—physically stop oil from getting to Cuba. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4000\" data-end=\"4405\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4000\" data-end=\"4026\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Correct. But that really starts in 2026. Since the operation to remove Nicolás Maduro from power, Cuba was immediately cut off from its most stable and important oil supplier. The Trump administration then threatened tariffs on any other nation that would continue to ship oil to Cuba. That was largely targeted at Mexico, which had emerged as a relatively important supplier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4407\" data-end=\"4782\">Right now, Cuba is trying to get by on about 40% of the oil it was consuming prior to January of this year—and that 40% was already a reduced level. In 2025, before this most recent oil cutoff, the Cuban electric grid had already experienced five nationwide blackouts. Things were already really dire, and what’s happened since January has ratcheted that up to a new level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4784\" data-end=\"4978\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4784\" data-end=\"4804\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jen, let’s talk about what this means for the Cuban people. We’re talking about blackouts, and if you cut off that much oil, it affects much more than just transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4980\" data-end=\"5278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4980\" data-end=\"4997\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The day-to-day experiences of the Cuban population right now—if we think back to the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s—that was almost a trial run for what’s happening now. Cubans developed a sense of how to improvise, invent, and find solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5280\" data-end=\"5476\">Those skills are coming to the fore again. When we think about gas, we think about cars, but it also affects electricity. That impacts people from the moment they wake up to when they go to bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5478\" data-end=\"5810\">For example, potable water in many homes is pumped either from the street or from rooftop tanks—those pumps require electricity. There are spillover effects on education, with schools closing and students being sent home because institutions can’t provide for them. And there are serious impacts on the health care sector as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5812\" data-end=\"6041\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5812\" data-end=\"5832\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There had also been this kind of gray-market tourism—especially during the warming years of the Obama administration. What’s happened to that sector, which I understand was a pillar of the informal economy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6043\" data-end=\"6308\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6043\" data-end=\"6060\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> The private sector in Cuba has really been anchored in tourism—restaurants, nightclubs, and housing like bed-and-breakfast setups. Those businesses saw the Obama administration as an opportunity to grow, and there was a large influx of tourists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6310\" data-end=\"6630\">Cuba has always had tourism from outside the U.S.—from Canada, Russia, and Europe—but those businesses really began to thrive during that period. Then restrictions were reimposed, including on cruise ships, and COVID was extremely tough. With the closure of José Martí International Airport, tourism basically stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6851\">Now, many of those ventures—both state-run and private—that matured around the time of COVID are sitting empty. It’s been a real challenge for entrepreneurs and small business owners to stay open or make improvements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6853\" data-end=\"6966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6853\" data-end=\"6873\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael, was that collapse in tourism the main reason COVID was so destabilizing for Cuba?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6968\" data-end=\"7219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6968\" data-end=\"6994\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> COVID was the culmination of a perfect storm. The Cuban economy was already suffering from the rollback of Obama-era openness. U.S. visitor numbers had started to fall, and by 2019 you were already seeing rising shortages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7221\" data-end=\"7413\">When Cuba had to close its borders and tourism disappeared overnight, it was crushing. Cuba’s GDP declined by 10% in 2020 alone. And the tourism industry hasn’t recovered, for a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7415\" data-end=\"7717\">One is cost competitiveness—Cuba struggles compared to other Caribbean destinations due to infrastructure challenges. Another is the knock-on effects of being placed back on the state sponsors of terrorism list, which complicates travel for Europeans who need visa waivers to enter the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7719\" data-end=\"8008\">There’s also an internal story here. While there has been private sector expansion, it’s been inconsistent—one step forward, one step back. The state still frames the private sector as a complement, not an engine of growth. That runs counter to advice from allies like China and Vietnam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8010\" data-end=\"8254\">So there’s a story of missed opportunities and uneven reform that has left Cuba particularly vulnerable to external shocks like COVID—or what’s happening now under the Trump administration. But the external pressures matter a great deal, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8256\" data-end=\"8542\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8256\" data-end=\"8276\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the Trump administration’s policies toward Cuba and how the Cuban people are experiencing the current humanitarian crisis. We’re joined by Michael J. Bustamante of the University of Miami and Jen Triplett of the University of Colorado Boulder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8544\" data-end=\"8810\">We’re also taking your questions. It’s a complicated story with a long history, so what are your questions about current U.S. policy toward Cuba? Maybe about the blockade that’s keeping oil out, or maybe you have roots in Cuba—what are your thoughts and reactions?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8812\" data-end=\"8967\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8877\" data-end=\"8891\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram, Discord—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8969\" data-end=\"9001\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"437\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. For decades, the United States has treated Cuba as a special case—from the crackpot 1960s CIA schemes to kill Fidel Castro, to the extremely generous immigration policy for Cuban arrivals on American shores, to the opening of relations during the Obama administration. The U.S. has never quite known how to approach the nominally communist country off the coast of Florida.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"439\" data-end=\"662\">The second Trump administration, however, has taken unprecedented economic steps to isolate the island, and Donald Trump himself is talking about Cuba in ways that no previous American president has—or could even imagine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"664\" data-end=\"982\">Here to discuss what’s happening in the country and what the U.S. government might actually want, we’re joined by two experts on Cuba and U.S.-Cuba relations. We’re joined by Michael J. Bustamante, associate professor of history and director of the Cuban Studies Program at the University of Miami. Welcome, Michael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"984\" data-end=\"1034\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"984\" data-end=\"1010\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1036\" data-end=\"1056\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve also got Jen Triplett, assistant professor of sociology and a researcher focused on Latin America at the University of Colorado Boulder. Welcome, Jen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1221\" data-end=\"1258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1221\" data-end=\"1238\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1514\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1260\" data-end=\"1280\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael Bustamante, why don’t you bring us up to date on what’s happened in 2025? We’re going to go back further in time—you kind of have to here—but let’s start with what’s happened since the Trump administration came into office.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1516\" data-end=\"1815\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1516\" data-end=\"1542\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Sure. The Trump administration came into office with Cuba already in a deep crisis—and not to get ahead of your question by going further back—but Cuba has had a very difficult run, at the very least since the pandemic and, in fact, since the first Trump administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1817\" data-end=\"2289\">So when this administration comes in, they sense there’s an opportunity—that the Cuban government has its back against the wall. One of the really striking things they did early on in 2025 vis-à-vis Cuba was tighten immigration policy for Cubans. Many of the unprecedented number of Cubans who had come to the United States under the Biden administration lost their status. There are about 500,000 Cubans today in immigration limbo. Many are being detained and deported.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2291\" data-end=\"2575\">That’s part and parcel of what’s evolved into a broader “maximum pressure” strategy on the island. The theory is that you want to create pressure on the Cuban economy, and you can’t let people leave either. That’s only accelerated since 2026 and the ouster of Maduro, and I suppose—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2577\" data-end=\"2830\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2577\" data-end=\"2597\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll get into all of that. I’m curious, though: the U.S. has maintained an embargo—or blockade, in some sense—on Cuba for a very long time. So how has that apparatus actually changed during the Trump administration’s second term?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2832\" data-end=\"3225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2832\" data-end=\"2858\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> In a way, at least before 2026, not a ton. And part of that is because, going back to the Obama administration—which you mentioned in your lead-in—there was a historic effort not to undo the embargo completely, because the president can’t; it’s codified under U.S. law. But there was an effort to poke more holes in it through executive authority than ever before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3227\" data-end=\"3485\">The first Trump administration put a lot of that back in the box, so to speak. The Biden administration only tweaked things at the margins. So when this new administration comes in, a lot of the tools from the first Trump administration are still in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3487\" data-end=\"3889\">It’s been somewhat surprising that the administration hasn’t gone after some measures used in more sanctions-forward eras—cutting down flights or creating a new cap on remittances. They haven’t done that. They did slap Cuba back onto the state sponsors of terrorism list, which it had come off for about a minute in the last week of the Biden administration. So it’s almost as if that never happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3891\" data-end=\"3998\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3891\" data-end=\"3911\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But what they have done is stop oil—physically stop oil from getting to Cuba. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4000\" data-end=\"4405\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4000\" data-end=\"4026\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> Correct. But that really starts in 2026. Since the operation to remove Nicolás Maduro from power, Cuba was immediately cut off from its most stable and important oil supplier. The Trump administration then threatened tariffs on any other nation that would continue to ship oil to Cuba. That was largely targeted at Mexico, which had emerged as a relatively important supplier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4407\" data-end=\"4782\">Right now, Cuba is trying to get by on about 40% of the oil it was consuming prior to January of this year—and that 40% was already a reduced level. In 2025, before this most recent oil cutoff, the Cuban electric grid had already experienced five nationwide blackouts. Things were already really dire, and what’s happened since January has ratcheted that up to a new level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4784\" data-end=\"4978\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4784\" data-end=\"4804\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jen, let’s talk about what this means for the Cuban people. We’re talking about blackouts, and if you cut off that much oil, it affects much more than just transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4980\" data-end=\"5278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4980\" data-end=\"4997\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely. The day-to-day experiences of the Cuban population right now—if we think back to the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s—that was almost a trial run for what’s happening now. Cubans developed a sense of how to improvise, invent, and find solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5280\" data-end=\"5476\">Those skills are coming to the fore again. When we think about gas, we think about cars, but it also affects electricity. That impacts people from the moment they wake up to when they go to bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5478\" data-end=\"5810\">For example, potable water in many homes is pumped either from the street or from rooftop tanks—those pumps require electricity. There are spillover effects on education, with schools closing and students being sent home because institutions can’t provide for them. And there are serious impacts on the health care sector as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5812\" data-end=\"6041\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5812\" data-end=\"5832\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There had also been this kind of gray-market tourism—especially during the warming years of the Obama administration. What’s happened to that sector, which I understand was a pillar of the informal economy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6043\" data-end=\"6308\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6043\" data-end=\"6060\">Jen Triplett:\u003c/strong> The private sector in Cuba has really been anchored in tourism—restaurants, nightclubs, and housing like bed-and-breakfast setups. Those businesses saw the Obama administration as an opportunity to grow, and there was a large influx of tourists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6310\" data-end=\"6630\">Cuba has always had tourism from outside the U.S.—from Canada, Russia, and Europe—but those businesses really began to thrive during that period. Then restrictions were reimposed, including on cruise ships, and COVID was extremely tough. With the closure of José Martí International Airport, tourism basically stopped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6851\">Now, many of those ventures—both state-run and private—that matured around the time of COVID are sitting empty. It’s been a real challenge for entrepreneurs and small business owners to stay open or make improvements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6853\" data-end=\"6966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6853\" data-end=\"6873\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael, was that collapse in tourism the main reason COVID was so destabilizing for Cuba?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6968\" data-end=\"7219\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6968\" data-end=\"6994\">Michael J. Bustamante:\u003c/strong> COVID was the culmination of a perfect storm. The Cuban economy was already suffering from the rollback of Obama-era openness. U.S. visitor numbers had started to fall, and by 2019 you were already seeing rising shortages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7221\" data-end=\"7413\">When Cuba had to close its borders and tourism disappeared overnight, it was crushing. Cuba’s GDP declined by 10% in 2020 alone. And the tourism industry hasn’t recovered, for a few reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7415\" data-end=\"7717\">One is cost competitiveness—Cuba struggles compared to other Caribbean destinations due to infrastructure challenges. Another is the knock-on effects of being placed back on the state sponsors of terrorism list, which complicates travel for Europeans who need visa waivers to enter the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7719\" data-end=\"8008\">There’s also an internal story here. While there has been private sector expansion, it’s been inconsistent—one step forward, one step back. The state still frames the private sector as a complement, not an engine of growth. That runs counter to advice from allies like China and Vietnam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8010\" data-end=\"8254\">So there’s a story of missed opportunities and uneven reform that has left Cuba particularly vulnerable to external shocks like COVID—or what’s happening now under the Trump administration. But the external pressures matter a great deal, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8256\" data-end=\"8542\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8256\" data-end=\"8276\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the Trump administration’s policies toward Cuba and how the Cuban people are experiencing the current humanitarian crisis. We’re joined by Michael J. Bustamante of the University of Miami and Jen Triplett of the University of Colorado Boulder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8544\" data-end=\"8810\">We’re also taking your questions. It’s a complicated story with a long history, so what are your questions about current U.S. policy toward Cuba? Maybe about the blockade that’s keeping oil out, or maybe you have roots in Cuba—what are your thoughts and reactions?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8812\" data-end=\"8967\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8877\" data-end=\"8891\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram, Discord—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8969\" data-end=\"9001\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California’s jam-packed governor’s primary may lead to a historic political shakeup this fall. Polls show the two leading Republicans, Riverside county sheriff Chad Bianco and political commentator Steve Hilton, could consolidate enough support to lock Democrats out of the November general election. That leaves the crowded field of Democrats — which includes Rep. Eric Swalwell, former congresswoman Katie Porter and billionaire businessman Tom Steyer — scrambling to secure one of the top spots. We’ll break down the major players in this packed race and hear what issues matter most to Californians as they prepare to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re less than a month until early voting begins in the June 2nd primary, when we’ll determine the final two contenders for California’s next governor. And the field remains very crowded. At least ten major candidates are still in the race: eight Democrats and two Republicans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been talk that, with so many Democrats potentially splitting the vote, California’s top-two primary system could send two Republican candidates to the November election. We’ll look at the likelihood of that scenario, especially now that the president has endorsed one of the top Republican candidates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, do you know who you’ll be voting for? And if not, tell us why not. 866-733-6786 is the number to call. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With me is Marisa Lagos, correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk and co-host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> radio show and podcast. Marisa, welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morning, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guy Marzorati is also with us, a correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Seema Mehta is with us, a staff writer at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> covering government and politics. Seema, really glad to have you on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let me just start by asking you, Marisa. There are ten major candidates still in the running. As I said, two Republicans, eight Democrats. How unusual is this number of candidates at this stage in a governor’s race?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, for the last two and a half decades, incredibly unusual. I guess going back to the recall was the last time we had sort of this big of a hot mess on the ballot, if you might call it that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in that case, there were fewer, I would say, serious candidates, especially on the Democratic side. But let’s be clear: the last few governor elections have been kind of more coronations, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had Gavin Newsom sort of beating out Antonio Villaraigosa in 2018 and facing off against Republican John Cox. So that was a pretty easy November election for him. Jerry Brown essentially cleared the field eight years before that. And, of course, Arnold Schwarzenegger sort of stormed into office and stayed there until he was termed out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s incredibly unusual not only to have this many candidates, but just to have a wide-open race in general.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. So the two leading Republicans, Guy, are pulling ahead of the eight Democrats that I mentioned?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, and that’s entirely a function of there just being a lot more Democratic candidates splitting up the vote. It’s not as if suddenly the idea of a Republican governor is more popular for the broader electorate. It’s that you have really just two notable Republicans: Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, and Steve Hilton, the Fox News Republican commentator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have a lot more Democratic candidates—eight Democrats that are well known to some extent, who have served in a variety of roles in government—that are really, at this point, splitting up the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what we’ve seen in the last maybe four to six weeks, maybe two months, is really an emergence of a top five of candidates, where you have the two Republicans, and then three Democrats: Katie Porter, Eric Swalwell, and Tom Steyer, who have gained some separation from the other Democrats in the field.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, even among those three Democrats, it’s really close in any public poll you’re looking at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Roughly around ten percent, I’ve seen, and then Steve Hilton and Chad Bianco sort of in the teens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, which honestly I think could change after yesterday’s endorsement from the president. I think that’s the biggest endorsement yet in this race and a really clear signal, I think, for a lot of Republicans to kind of rally around Steve Hilton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And ironically, all of this kind of consternation among Democrats about having two Republicans in the general election—they tried calling on candidates to drop out, they tried public shaming, rolling out their own polls—ultimately what will probably make the biggest difference is Trump coming in and saying, “I’m endorsing Hilton,” and creating separation between him and Bianco, allowing a Democrat to get to the general election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Seema, you wrote about this, and I’m wondering what you think about the effect that Trump’s endorsement will have, and how much of an endorsement Hilton will benefit from if he does end up in the November election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In talking to strategists in both parties, I think there’s a broad belief that this could make sure that Hilton wins one of the top two spots in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, if only one Republican wins a top spot, given California’s overwhelmingly Democratic electorate, that basically means that the race is done after June. The Democrat takes the other spot, as we saw with Newsom and John Cox, and in other races like Jerry Brown and Neel Kashkari in 2014.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think the president’s endorsement comes days before the state Republican Party meets in San Diego this weekend for their endorsement conference and convention. I think at one point there was doubt that either Hilton or Bianco would be able to get the number of votes needed to get that endorsement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I think people believe that Hilton actually has a chance of getting it because the people who show up at the convention—this is the president’s base. They listen to him. So it could really make a big difference this weekend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And, Marisa, it wasn’t like the two Republican candidates, who would essentially need to split the Republican vote evenly, were helping each other do that before this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It doesn’t sound like they were trying to sort of make it so that they could lock out Democrats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I have no indication they’ve actually been working together. I think that was sort of a fever dream of Republicans that they could do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that you do have so many low-polling Democratic candidates certainly made it a possibility, but a very low one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the bigger question at this point is who can kind of use these final months ahead of the June primary on the Democratic side to really make their case and engage an electorate that seems very distracted in this moment with what’s happening nationally, and just sort of not that excited about this race.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think that’s crazy either. Guy and Seema and I live and breathe this stuff 365, 24/7, so you all don’t have to. And why would you be that invested yet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a lot of friends who do follow the news relatively carefully who are still like, “Wait, who’s running?” So I think as people’s ballots drop and the ads ramp up, as they’re starting to, we will see some more engagement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, this listener writes: “This problem reminds me of RBG’s decision to hang on at the Supreme Court. Some of the Democratic candidates with no chance of winning need to show some political savvy and character and drop out.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guy, you were mentioning that people have tried shaming and other means for pushing or asking Democratic candidates to start leaving the race when this was more of a fear with regard to Democrats being locked out of the November election. Why didn’t any of that work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it could speak in part to the weakness of the party infrastructure, and also I think candidates feeling somewhat emboldened by those calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the days right after Rusty Hicks, the Democratic Party chair, came out and said these lower-polling candidates should drop out, a lot of those candidates that I talked to said, “Well, since you said that, now I’m staying in.” They didn’t want to look like a chump and just get out of the race because of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not to say that still isn’t going to come. I talked to Betty Yee, who’s been polling in kind of low single digits. She stayed in, she filed to run, she said it was a dream of hers to be on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she said that come mid-April, she’s going to reevaluate her chances in this campaign and decide whether to drop out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now at this point, you’re not going to get off the ballot. Your name is still going to be on the ballot. But I think you could easily see in the next few weeks some of these candidates decide to hang it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to Marisa’s point, when ballots drop in early May, I think that’s when you’re really going to see the ad barrage—when you’re really going to see all these candidates who’ve been saving up a lot of money really try to get on the airwaves and match, to some extent, what we’ve seen from someone like Tom Steyer, who’s been on TV since the ball dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s when you might see some more natural separation between these campaigns.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And those candidates polling roughly around three percent are Javier Becerra, Antonio Villaraigosa, Betty Yee, as you mentioned, Matt Mahan, and Tony Thurmond potentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you also note, Guy, vote-by-mail ballots are going out no later than May 4. But I guess I’m curious, Seema, if you feel like there is a lot of room for the race to change between now and then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think each of the leading Democrats has potential weaknesses, and I think that’s what the rest of the field is sort of counting on to see where we are a couple weeks from now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, when Rusty made his request for people to sort of consider their viability—and this also ties into the USC debate that was canceled at the last minute because of questions around the methodology used to select the candidates who would participate—all of the candidates of color are polling low.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was viewed in some quarters as just inappropriate because basically the state Democratic Party and other leaders were asking all the candidates of color to drop out. So that’s also a factor, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I also wanted to put the same question to you, Marisa, about room for this race to change in any particularly significant way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it has to, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think someone really is going to jump ahead in the next few weeks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s likely that we go into primary week with it still being a contest among some of these Democrats, but I do think that we will see at least some consolidation the closer we get to June 2, and that their numbers could at least jump up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the point of the campaign where opposition research starts being dumped. I think we’re going to see—we’re already seeing someone like Eric Swalwell go up on TV for the first time. Steyer’s been there for a while. With Porter, I think we’re sort of waiting to see how she handles that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that TV is the whole game anymore, and I think all these candidates have been really active on social media, which is obviously a really important place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think there will be some changes. And again, as voters check in, you’ll see—there’s still a pretty good chunk in a lot of these polls that are undecided. And then also, you could see a shift from some of these lower-polling candidates toward other ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. About a quarter of voters are undecided.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listener Sophie writes: “Californians have been put in a terrible position. I’m very frustrated with the Democratic Party with there being too many candidates and no clear front-runner. I’m taking the approach of looking at the polls and going with who is leading. Right now, that is Eric Swalwell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I would love for Javier Becerra to be governor and would vote for him if he were higher in the polls. He’s the most qualified by far, but sadly, we are placed in a position where we have to be strategic at this point to make sure we don’t have a Republican lockout.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right after the break, we’re going to dig into who the leading candidates are, their backgrounds, their promises, and their baggage as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But listeners, do tell us if there is a candidate that you would like to see be in the top two. And if not, why not? What has made it difficult for you to make that choice? What are the most important issues that you want the next governor to address?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, email address: forum@kqed.org. Phone number: 866-733-6786. And you can find us on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re less than a month until early voting begins in the June 2nd primary, when we’ll determine the final two contenders for California’s next governor. And the field remains very crowded. At least ten major candidates are still in the race: eight Democrats and two Republicans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been talk that, with so many Democrats potentially splitting the vote, California’s top-two primary system could send two Republican candidates to the November election. We’ll look at the likelihood of that scenario, especially now that the president has endorsed one of the top Republican candidates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, do you know who you’ll be voting for? And if not, tell us why not. 866-733-6786 is the number to call. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With me is Marisa Lagos, correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk and co-host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> radio show and podcast. Marisa, welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morning, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guy Marzorati is also with us, a correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Seema Mehta is with us, a staff writer at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> covering government and politics. Seema, really glad to have you on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let me just start by asking you, Marisa. There are ten major candidates still in the running. As I said, two Republicans, eight Democrats. How unusual is this number of candidates at this stage in a governor’s race?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, for the last two and a half decades, incredibly unusual. I guess going back to the recall was the last time we had sort of this big of a hot mess on the ballot, if you might call it that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in that case, there were fewer, I would say, serious candidates, especially on the Democratic side. But let’s be clear: the last few governor elections have been kind of more coronations, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had Gavin Newsom sort of beating out Antonio Villaraigosa in 2018 and facing off against Republican John Cox. So that was a pretty easy November election for him. Jerry Brown essentially cleared the field eight years before that. And, of course, Arnold Schwarzenegger sort of stormed into office and stayed there until he was termed out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s incredibly unusual not only to have this many candidates, but just to have a wide-open race in general.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. So the two leading Republicans, Guy, are pulling ahead of the eight Democrats that I mentioned?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, and that’s entirely a function of there just being a lot more Democratic candidates splitting up the vote. It’s not as if suddenly the idea of a Republican governor is more popular for the broader electorate. It’s that you have really just two notable Republicans: Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, and Steve Hilton, the Fox News Republican commentator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have a lot more Democratic candidates—eight Democrats that are well known to some extent, who have served in a variety of roles in government—that are really, at this point, splitting up the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what we’ve seen in the last maybe four to six weeks, maybe two months, is really an emergence of a top five of candidates, where you have the two Republicans, and then three Democrats: Katie Porter, Eric Swalwell, and Tom Steyer, who have gained some separation from the other Democrats in the field.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, even among those three Democrats, it’s really close in any public poll you’re looking at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Roughly around ten percent, I’ve seen, and then Steve Hilton and Chad Bianco sort of in the teens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, which honestly I think could change after yesterday’s endorsement from the president. I think that’s the biggest endorsement yet in this race and a really clear signal, I think, for a lot of Republicans to kind of rally around Steve Hilton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And ironically, all of this kind of consternation among Democrats about having two Republicans in the general election—they tried calling on candidates to drop out, they tried public shaming, rolling out their own polls—ultimately what will probably make the biggest difference is Trump coming in and saying, “I’m endorsing Hilton,” and creating separation between him and Bianco, allowing a Democrat to get to the general election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Seema, you wrote about this, and I’m wondering what you think about the effect that Trump’s endorsement will have, and how much of an endorsement Hilton will benefit from if he does end up in the November election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In talking to strategists in both parties, I think there’s a broad belief that this could make sure that Hilton wins one of the top two spots in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, if only one Republican wins a top spot, given California’s overwhelmingly Democratic electorate, that basically means that the race is done after June. The Democrat takes the other spot, as we saw with Newsom and John Cox, and in other races like Jerry Brown and Neel Kashkari in 2014.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think the president’s endorsement comes days before the state Republican Party meets in San Diego this weekend for their endorsement conference and convention. I think at one point there was doubt that either Hilton or Bianco would be able to get the number of votes needed to get that endorsement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I think people believe that Hilton actually has a chance of getting it because the people who show up at the convention—this is the president’s base. They listen to him. So it could really make a big difference this weekend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And, Marisa, it wasn’t like the two Republican candidates, who would essentially need to split the Republican vote evenly, were helping each other do that before this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It doesn’t sound like they were trying to sort of make it so that they could lock out Democrats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I have no indication they’ve actually been working together. I think that was sort of a fever dream of Republicans that they could do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that you do have so many low-polling Democratic candidates certainly made it a possibility, but a very low one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the bigger question at this point is who can kind of use these final months ahead of the June primary on the Democratic side to really make their case and engage an electorate that seems very distracted in this moment with what’s happening nationally, and just sort of not that excited about this race.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think that’s crazy either. Guy and Seema and I live and breathe this stuff 365, 24/7, so you all don’t have to. And why would you be that invested yet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a lot of friends who do follow the news relatively carefully who are still like, “Wait, who’s running?” So I think as people’s ballots drop and the ads ramp up, as they’re starting to, we will see some more engagement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, this listener writes: “This problem reminds me of RBG’s decision to hang on at the Supreme Court. Some of the Democratic candidates with no chance of winning need to show some political savvy and character and drop out.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guy, you were mentioning that people have tried shaming and other means for pushing or asking Democratic candidates to start leaving the race when this was more of a fear with regard to Democrats being locked out of the November election. Why didn’t any of that work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it could speak in part to the weakness of the party infrastructure, and also I think candidates feeling somewhat emboldened by those calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the days right after Rusty Hicks, the Democratic Party chair, came out and said these lower-polling candidates should drop out, a lot of those candidates that I talked to said, “Well, since you said that, now I’m staying in.” They didn’t want to look like a chump and just get out of the race because of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not to say that still isn’t going to come. I talked to Betty Yee, who’s been polling in kind of low single digits. She stayed in, she filed to run, she said it was a dream of hers to be on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she said that come mid-April, she’s going to reevaluate her chances in this campaign and decide whether to drop out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now at this point, you’re not going to get off the ballot. Your name is still going to be on the ballot. But I think you could easily see in the next few weeks some of these candidates decide to hang it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to Marisa’s point, when ballots drop in early May, I think that’s when you’re really going to see the ad barrage—when you’re really going to see all these candidates who’ve been saving up a lot of money really try to get on the airwaves and match, to some extent, what we’ve seen from someone like Tom Steyer, who’s been on TV since the ball dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s when you might see some more natural separation between these campaigns.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And those candidates polling roughly around three percent are Javier Becerra, Antonio Villaraigosa, Betty Yee, as you mentioned, Matt Mahan, and Tony Thurmond potentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you also note, Guy, vote-by-mail ballots are going out no later than May 4. But I guess I’m curious, Seema, if you feel like there is a lot of room for the race to change between now and then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think each of the leading Democrats has potential weaknesses, and I think that’s what the rest of the field is sort of counting on to see where we are a couple weeks from now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, when Rusty made his request for people to sort of consider their viability—and this also ties into the USC debate that was canceled at the last minute because of questions around the methodology used to select the candidates who would participate—all of the candidates of color are polling low.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was viewed in some quarters as just inappropriate because basically the state Democratic Party and other leaders were asking all the candidates of color to drop out. So that’s also a factor, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I also wanted to put the same question to you, Marisa, about room for this race to change in any particularly significant way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it has to, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think someone really is going to jump ahead in the next few weeks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s likely that we go into primary week with it still being a contest among some of these Democrats, but I do think that we will see at least some consolidation the closer we get to June 2, and that their numbers could at least jump up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the point of the campaign where opposition research starts being dumped. I think we’re going to see—we’re already seeing someone like Eric Swalwell go up on TV for the first time. Steyer’s been there for a while. With Porter, I think we’re sort of waiting to see how she handles that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that TV is the whole game anymore, and I think all these candidates have been really active on social media, which is obviously a really important place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think there will be some changes. And again, as voters check in, you’ll see—there’s still a pretty good chunk in a lot of these polls that are undecided. And then also, you could see a shift from some of these lower-polling candidates toward other ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. About a quarter of voters are undecided.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listener Sophie writes: “Californians have been put in a terrible position. I’m very frustrated with the Democratic Party with there being too many candidates and no clear front-runner. I’m taking the approach of looking at the polls and going with who is leading. Right now, that is Eric Swalwell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I would love for Javier Becerra to be governor and would vote for him if he were higher in the polls. He’s the most qualified by far, but sadly, we are placed in a position where we have to be strategic at this point to make sure we don’t have a Republican lockout.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right after the break, we’re going to dig into who the leading candidates are, their backgrounds, their promises, and their baggage as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But listeners, do tell us if there is a candidate that you would like to see be in the top two. And if not, why not? What has made it difficult for you to make that choice? What are the most important issues that you want the next governor to address?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, email address: forum@kqed.org. Phone number: 866-733-6786. And you can find us on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/baycurious",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 3
},
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}
},
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"id": "bbc-world-service",
"title": "BBC World Service",
"info": "The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/",
"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The California Report",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1MDAyODE4NTgz",
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"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcram/feed/podcast"
}
},
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"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
"meta": {
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"order": 10
},
"link": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcrmag/feed/podcast"
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},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CAT_2_Tile-scaled.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 1
},
"link": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC6993880386",
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"code-switch-life-kit": {
"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Code-Switch-Life-Kit-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/code-switch-life-kit",
"subscribe": {
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3bExJ9JQpkwNhoHvaIIuyV",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510312/podcast.xml"
}
},
"commonwealth-club": {
"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/forum",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
"link": "/forum",
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"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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}
},
"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
}
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"here-and-now": {
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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"tuneIn": "http://tun.in/pjGcK",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/54C1dmuyFyKMFttY6X2j6r?si=K8SgRCoISNK6ZbjpXrX5-w",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=201853034&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0MxSpNYZKNprFLCl7eEtyx"
}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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