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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>New Jersey Senator Cory Booker said this weekend that Democrats have “failed to meet this moment” and that his party needed “generational renewal.” The comments come a year after the Democrat set a Senate record, holding the floor for 25 hours and five minutes as he offered thundering criticism of the Trump administration. Now, in his new book, ‘Stand,’ Booker urges the country to rise to this moment. To make his point, he highlights the stories of ten Americans, some famous and others less well-known, who also met moments of crisis with steadfastness, strength and optimism. “Our democracy is not a spectator sport,” writes Booker. “It demands participation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"76\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"14\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> From KQED, this is \u003cem data-start=\"34\" data-end=\"41\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"78\" data-end=\"406\">A year ago today, Cory Booker stood on the Senate floor for 25 hours and 5 minutes to lambast the Trump administration for its assault on democratic norms. It broke a longstanding Senate record held by civil rights opponent Strom Thurmond, and that speech required three days of fasting and 24 hours without drinking anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"408\" data-end=\"648\">In his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"425\" data-end=\"432\">Stand\u003c/em>, the senior senator from New Jersey urges Americans to fight for a better future. “Our democracy needs more from us than endless posting and scrolling,” writes Booker, “because democracy is not a spectator sport.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"650\" data-end=\"832\">He joins us to talk about this moment and how the activists he’s studied—and those he has known—are informing his vision for the Democratic Party. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"808\" data-end=\"815\">Forum\u003c/em>, Senator Booker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"834\" data-end=\"903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"834\" data-end=\"855\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s so good to be on. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"905\" data-end=\"1232\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"905\" data-end=\"919\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Senator Booker, arguments in the birthright citizenship case at the Supreme Court ended just about an hour ago. President Trump was in attendance for part of that argument. This court has delivered both wins and losses for the president. Are you worried it might overturn the precedent of birthright citizenship?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1441\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1255\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m definitely worried. The signs are that they won’t, but when a case goes before a Supreme Court this conservative, anything is possible. So I’m holding my breath and waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1443\" data-end=\"1759\">To me, this is clear in the law. Even when Congress was debating the Fourteenth Amendment, opponents said it would create an environment where people in this country—whether documented or not—would have children who are citizens. That was explicitly discussed during the debate, and it still overwhelmingly passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1868\">So it was clearly congressional intent, and any decision contrary to that would, to me, be wrongly decided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1870\" data-end=\"2244\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1870\" data-end=\"1884\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> You went on the show \u003cem data-start=\"1906\" data-end=\"1926\">Finding Your Roots\u003c/em> with Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., and it makes me think about how ancestry is part of your own story. You discovered enslaved people, Confederate soldiers, and Native Americans in your family history. When you think about birthright citizenship, does that connect to what your family history means to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2246\" data-end=\"2401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2246\" data-end=\"2267\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it anguishes me. There’s a dark stream in America—this idea of defining who is “truly American” and otherizing everyone else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2403\" data-end=\"2614\">I’m proud that Skip Gates traced my ancestry back to 1640, and that my DNA includes Native American, African American, and European roots. In many ways, I feel like the story of America is written into my DNA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2616\" data-end=\"2895\">I’m worried not just about this case, but about broader trends. For the first time, we’ve had a net population decline, in part because this president has throttled even legal immigration. That undermines our economy—job creation, tax revenue—but also the very idea of America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2897\" data-end=\"3084\">We are a nation not of one race or religion, but one open to all the streams of humanity. That ideal, inscribed on the Statue of Liberty, is part of what has made us a light to the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3086\" data-end=\"3192\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3086\" data-end=\"3100\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> What do you make of the fact that President Trump attended part of this morning’s hearings?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3194\" data-end=\"3379\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3194\" data-end=\"3215\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s more of his bullying, posturing, and arrogance. To me, it’s another sign of how this president relies on intimidation and undermines the heart of our country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3381\" data-end=\"3623\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3381\" data-end=\"3395\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Tonight, we’re expecting a national address from the president about the Iran war. He has said Iran has been defeated, then that the conflict would continue, and then that it was over. What do you want to hear from him tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3625\" data-end=\"3796\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3625\" data-end=\"3646\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> This president has contradicted himself repeatedly. He’s given shifting reasons for the war—human rights, nuclear threats, missiles, regime change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3798\" data-end=\"4051\">Meanwhile, we’ve spent tens of billions of dollars, lost American lives, and have hundreds of injured service members. The situation has worsened: a more extreme regime, disruption in the Strait of Hormuz, a global oil shock, and rising costs at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4053\" data-end=\"4325\">This is a failed endeavor. It’s a violation of our Constitution, and it’s created a quagmire with no easy off-ramp. I don’t expect to hear anything compelling unless he admits he made a mistake and seeks a way out. But based on past statements, I don’t trust what he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4327\" data-end=\"4474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4327\" data-end=\"4341\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> The country is now in this war. What should we—as a country, beyond the president—be doing to get out of what you call a “quagmire”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4476\" data-end=\"4710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4476\" data-end=\"4497\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> First, there needs to be a reckoning. The Constitution does not give a president unilateral authority to do what he’s done—spend tens of billions, deploy military forces, and escalate conflict without Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4869\">Congress must reassert its authority. What he’s done not only violates the Constitution but threatens democratic principles. Only Congress can declare war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4871\" data-end=\"4995\">We need accountability and a path to de-escalation. Right now, there’s been no meaningful oversight, and that has to change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5183\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5011\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> If past is prologue, it seems unlikely the president will admit wrongdoing. What does that reckoning look like—hearings, impeachment? And can this Congress actually do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5185\" data-end=\"5324\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5185\" data-end=\"5206\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> I haven’t seen much backbone from my Republican colleagues. Many express concerns privately but won’t act publicly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5326\" data-end=\"5454\">On something as grave as war, Congress hasn’t even held open hearings. There’s been no accountability, no checks and balances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5456\" data-end=\"5689\">I’m working with a group of Democrats to push war powers resolutions—forcing votes and bringing this issue to the floor again and again. This should not be business as usual. We have to confront the moral stakes and demand oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5691\" data-end=\"5925\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5691\" data-end=\"5705\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing reports of some fractures within the Republican Party over support for the conflict. It must be difficult to work with colleagues who say one thing privately and another publicly. How do you navigate that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5927\" data-end=\"6176\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5927\" data-end=\"5948\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s frustrating. I’ve spent a lot of time studying past Senates and our founders. Jefferson said, “When people are afraid of their government, there is tyranny. When the government is afraid of its people, there is liberty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6178\" data-end=\"6340\">Right now, too many of my colleagues are more afraid of Donald Trump than of the people they represent—even though voters across parties don’t support this war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6342\" data-end=\"6582\">We also have to confront a deeper issue: the influence of money in politics. Billionaires and corporations wield enormous power. I’ve seen colleagues face threats of massive primary challenges funded by wealthy donors, and many back down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6584\" data-end=\"6722\">We need to address that corruption. It’s distorting our democracy, our tax system, and our economy—and we’re not doing enough to fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6724\" data-end=\"6798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6724\" data-end=\"6738\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> When you say Democrats, are you including party leadership?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6800\" data-end=\"6989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6800\" data-end=\"6821\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> I’m talking about the Democratic Party writ large. Fighting corruption should be a central priority—not just for one party, but for anyone who cares about democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6991\" data-end=\"7188\">When a small number of wealthy individuals can fund such a large share of political campaigns, that’s dangerous. We all need to prioritize fixing that if we want a government that works for people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7190\" data-end=\"7323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7190\" data-end=\"7204\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. His new book is \u003cem data-start=\"7275\" data-end=\"7282\">Stand\u003c/em>, which we’ll get into after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7325\" data-end=\"7438\">We want to hear from you—what are your questions for Senator Booker? Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7400\" data-end=\"7414\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7440\" data-end=\"7501\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim. More \u003cem data-start=\"7477\" data-end=\"7484\">Forum\u003c/em> after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"description": "Airdate: Wednesday, March 31 at 10 AM New Jersey Senator Cory Booker said this weekend that Democrats have “failed to meet this moment” and that his party needed "generational renewal." The comments come a year after the Democrat set a Senate record, holding the floor for 25 hours and five minutes as he offered thundering criticism of the Trump administration. Now, in his new book, 'Stand,' Booker urges the country to rise to this moment. To make his point, he highlights the stories of ten Americans, some famous and others less well-known, who also met moments of crisis with steadfastness,",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>New Jersey Senator Cory Booker said this weekend that Democrats have “failed to meet this moment” and that his party needed “generational renewal.” The comments come a year after the Democrat set a Senate record, holding the floor for 25 hours and five minutes as he offered thundering criticism of the Trump administration. Now, in his new book, ‘Stand,’ Booker urges the country to rise to this moment. To make his point, he highlights the stories of ten Americans, some famous and others less well-known, who also met moments of crisis with steadfastness, strength and optimism. “Our democracy is not a spectator sport,” writes Booker. “It demands participation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"76\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"14\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> From KQED, this is \u003cem data-start=\"34\" data-end=\"41\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"78\" data-end=\"406\">A year ago today, Cory Booker stood on the Senate floor for 25 hours and 5 minutes to lambast the Trump administration for its assault on democratic norms. It broke a longstanding Senate record held by civil rights opponent Strom Thurmond, and that speech required three days of fasting and 24 hours without drinking anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"408\" data-end=\"648\">In his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"425\" data-end=\"432\">Stand\u003c/em>, the senior senator from New Jersey urges Americans to fight for a better future. “Our democracy needs more from us than endless posting and scrolling,” writes Booker, “because democracy is not a spectator sport.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"650\" data-end=\"832\">He joins us to talk about this moment and how the activists he’s studied—and those he has known—are informing his vision for the Democratic Party. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"808\" data-end=\"815\">Forum\u003c/em>, Senator Booker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"834\" data-end=\"903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"834\" data-end=\"855\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s so good to be on. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"905\" data-end=\"1232\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"905\" data-end=\"919\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Senator Booker, arguments in the birthright citizenship case at the Supreme Court ended just about an hour ago. President Trump was in attendance for part of that argument. This court has delivered both wins and losses for the president. Are you worried it might overturn the precedent of birthright citizenship?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1441\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1255\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’m definitely worried. The signs are that they won’t, but when a case goes before a Supreme Court this conservative, anything is possible. So I’m holding my breath and waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1443\" data-end=\"1759\">To me, this is clear in the law. Even when Congress was debating the Fourteenth Amendment, opponents said it would create an environment where people in this country—whether documented or not—would have children who are citizens. That was explicitly discussed during the debate, and it still overwhelmingly passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1868\">So it was clearly congressional intent, and any decision contrary to that would, to me, be wrongly decided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1870\" data-end=\"2244\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1870\" data-end=\"1884\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> You went on the show \u003cem data-start=\"1906\" data-end=\"1926\">Finding Your Roots\u003c/em> with Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., and it makes me think about how ancestry is part of your own story. You discovered enslaved people, Confederate soldiers, and Native Americans in your family history. When you think about birthright citizenship, does that connect to what your family history means to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2246\" data-end=\"2401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2246\" data-end=\"2267\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it anguishes me. There’s a dark stream in America—this idea of defining who is “truly American” and otherizing everyone else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2403\" data-end=\"2614\">I’m proud that Skip Gates traced my ancestry back to 1640, and that my DNA includes Native American, African American, and European roots. In many ways, I feel like the story of America is written into my DNA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2616\" data-end=\"2895\">I’m worried not just about this case, but about broader trends. For the first time, we’ve had a net population decline, in part because this president has throttled even legal immigration. That undermines our economy—job creation, tax revenue—but also the very idea of America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2897\" data-end=\"3084\">We are a nation not of one race or religion, but one open to all the streams of humanity. That ideal, inscribed on the Statue of Liberty, is part of what has made us a light to the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3086\" data-end=\"3192\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3086\" data-end=\"3100\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> What do you make of the fact that President Trump attended part of this morning’s hearings?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3194\" data-end=\"3379\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3194\" data-end=\"3215\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s more of his bullying, posturing, and arrogance. To me, it’s another sign of how this president relies on intimidation and undermines the heart of our country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3381\" data-end=\"3623\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3381\" data-end=\"3395\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Tonight, we’re expecting a national address from the president about the Iran war. He has said Iran has been defeated, then that the conflict would continue, and then that it was over. What do you want to hear from him tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3625\" data-end=\"3796\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3625\" data-end=\"3646\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> This president has contradicted himself repeatedly. He’s given shifting reasons for the war—human rights, nuclear threats, missiles, regime change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3798\" data-end=\"4051\">Meanwhile, we’ve spent tens of billions of dollars, lost American lives, and have hundreds of injured service members. The situation has worsened: a more extreme regime, disruption in the Strait of Hormuz, a global oil shock, and rising costs at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4053\" data-end=\"4325\">This is a failed endeavor. It’s a violation of our Constitution, and it’s created a quagmire with no easy off-ramp. I don’t expect to hear anything compelling unless he admits he made a mistake and seeks a way out. But based on past statements, I don’t trust what he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4327\" data-end=\"4474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4327\" data-end=\"4341\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> The country is now in this war. What should we—as a country, beyond the president—be doing to get out of what you call a “quagmire”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4476\" data-end=\"4710\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4476\" data-end=\"4497\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> First, there needs to be a reckoning. The Constitution does not give a president unilateral authority to do what he’s done—spend tens of billions, deploy military forces, and escalate conflict without Congress.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4712\" data-end=\"4869\">Congress must reassert its authority. What he’s done not only violates the Constitution but threatens democratic principles. Only Congress can declare war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4871\" data-end=\"4995\">We need accountability and a path to de-escalation. Right now, there’s been no meaningful oversight, and that has to change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5183\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5011\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> If past is prologue, it seems unlikely the president will admit wrongdoing. What does that reckoning look like—hearings, impeachment? And can this Congress actually do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5185\" data-end=\"5324\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5185\" data-end=\"5206\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> I haven’t seen much backbone from my Republican colleagues. Many express concerns privately but won’t act publicly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5326\" data-end=\"5454\">On something as grave as war, Congress hasn’t even held open hearings. There’s been no accountability, no checks and balances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5456\" data-end=\"5689\">I’m working with a group of Democrats to push war powers resolutions—forcing votes and bringing this issue to the floor again and again. This should not be business as usual. We have to confront the moral stakes and demand oversight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5691\" data-end=\"5925\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5691\" data-end=\"5705\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re hearing reports of some fractures within the Republican Party over support for the conflict. It must be difficult to work with colleagues who say one thing privately and another publicly. How do you navigate that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5927\" data-end=\"6176\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5927\" data-end=\"5948\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> It’s frustrating. I’ve spent a lot of time studying past Senates and our founders. Jefferson said, “When people are afraid of their government, there is tyranny. When the government is afraid of its people, there is liberty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6178\" data-end=\"6340\">Right now, too many of my colleagues are more afraid of Donald Trump than of the people they represent—even though voters across parties don’t support this war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6342\" data-end=\"6582\">We also have to confront a deeper issue: the influence of money in politics. Billionaires and corporations wield enormous power. I’ve seen colleagues face threats of massive primary challenges funded by wealthy donors, and many back down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6584\" data-end=\"6722\">We need to address that corruption. It’s distorting our democracy, our tax system, and our economy—and we’re not doing enough to fight it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6724\" data-end=\"6798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6724\" data-end=\"6738\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> When you say Democrats, are you including party leadership?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6800\" data-end=\"6989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6800\" data-end=\"6821\">Sen. Cory Booker:\u003c/strong> I’m talking about the Democratic Party writ large. Fighting corruption should be a central priority—not just for one party, but for anyone who cares about democracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6991\" data-end=\"7188\">When a small number of wealthy individuals can fund such a large share of political campaigns, that’s dangerous. We all need to prioritize fixing that if we want a government that works for people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7190\" data-end=\"7323\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7190\" data-end=\"7204\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. His new book is \u003cem data-start=\"7275\" data-end=\"7282\">Stand\u003c/em>, which we’ll get into after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7325\" data-end=\"7438\">We want to hear from you—what are your questions for Senator Booker? Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7400\" data-end=\"7414\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or call 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7440\" data-end=\"7501\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Grace Won, in for Mina Kim. More \u003cem data-start=\"7477\" data-end=\"7484\">Forum\u003c/em> after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 1 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>National Geographic Explorer and documentary filmmaker Ariel Waldman challenges our sense of scale in her new PBS series “Life Unearthed” which explores Earth’s ecosystems– from microscopic life in the alien terrains of Antarctica to the sweeping American Prairies. We talk with Waldman about the series and what life in the seemingly barren environments of Antarctica reveal about resilient creatures, climate change, and even the possibilities of life beyond Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-(--header-height)\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"4f42c0c2-fbc3-4129-bb01-1f2141590c0a\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-1\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\" data-turn=\"user\">\u003c/section>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:259eeb49-03f0-4653-9c2f-68b6c5a23887-0\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-2\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-xs,calc(var(--spacing)*4))] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-sm,calc(var(--spacing)*6))] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-lg,calc(var(--spacing)*16))] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col gap-4 grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal outline-none keyboard-focused:focus-ring [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"6389efe3-43d6-47ac-bf4b-984499a8616d\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-3\" data-turn-start-message=\"true\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"328\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I cannot be alone in having always wanted to go to Antarctica. Something about the sheer strangeness of the landscape and the remoteness of the place—something about the lack of human degradation, something about the sheer challenge of getting there and surviving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"623\">Our guest this morning, Ariel Waldman, not only spent two months in Antarctica with a research team, she also managed to film a full-fledged documentary by herself with her menagerie of cameras. The first episodes of that work, \u003cem data-start=\"558\" data-end=\"573\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>, debut tonight on PBS. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"608\" data-end=\"615\">Forum\u003c/em>, Ariel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"643\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me. Really happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"700\" data-end=\"919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"700\" data-end=\"720\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And of course, I should say PBS is KQED TV. Perfect. Okay, let’s talk about going to Antarctica. I’m just going to live vicariously through you. How did you get cleared to go? How did you get there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"921\" data-end=\"1228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"921\" data-end=\"939\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. So getting cleared to go to Antarctica is a multi-month process. You have to get what we call “PQ’d,” which is physically qualified. So you go through a whole bunch of tests—seeing doctors, drawing blood, getting physical exams, everything. That’s all the preliminary stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1230\" data-end=\"1438\">But actually getting to Antarctica is a multi-hour, multi-day journey. From my home in San Francisco, I fly all the way to New Zealand. And from New Zealand, we take a C-130 military aircraft for eight hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1440\" data-end=\"1495\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1440\" data-end=\"1460\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wait—what’s it like on the inside?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1497\" data-end=\"1651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1497\" data-end=\"1515\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> On a C-130, it’s cramped. It was not meant for passengers. There are no seats—only cargo netting. You travel like that for eight hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1653\" data-end=\"1739\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1653\" data-end=\"1673\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So by “no seats,” you mean there are nets and you sit on the net?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1741\" data-end=\"1783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1741\" data-end=\"1759\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> You sit on the netting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1785\" data-end=\"1821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1785\" data-end=\"1805\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Like a hammock?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1823\" data-end=\"2132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1823\" data-end=\"1841\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> You sit on the netting, and they pack it full. You’re literally interweaving your knees with all of your fellow passengers because there’s not enough room to even put your legs together. So you’re crisscrossed with everyone on the plane for eight hours. And by the way, there’s no bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2179\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2154\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wait—so what do you use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2181\" data-end=\"2353\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2181\" data-end=\"2199\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> There’s literally a bucket—like a paint bucket—and they put a curtain around it. For eight hours, that’s the only place you have to go to the bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2355\" data-end=\"2603\">It could even be longer than eight hours, because when you take this journey, you might encounter really bad weather, be unable to land in Antarctica, and then they’ll just boomerang you back to New Zealand. Then you have to try again the next day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2605\" data-end=\"2675\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2605\" data-end=\"2625\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh my God. So there are no snacks, you’re saying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2677\" data-end=\"2763\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2677\" data-end=\"2695\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> They give you a little lunch pack, but yeah—it’s pretty bare-bones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2765\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2765\" data-end=\"2785\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s like Meals Ready to Eat—very military in that way. Wow. That’s so interesting. So who are you on there with? Other scientists, but also support staff, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3201\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"2968\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Yes. A lot of staff, a lot of support personnel, a lot of scientists. Because the New Zealand and American bases are so close together, you get a lot of Kiwi researchers alongside Antarctic researchers, and we all fly down together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3203\" data-end=\"3311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3203\" data-end=\"3223\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And what were you going down there to do? What kind of research were you involved with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3313\" data-end=\"3537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3313\" data-end=\"3331\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> I was on the McMurdo Dry Valleys Long-Term Ecological Research team—which is a mouthful. They’ve been studying this Mars-like environment for over 30 years, looking at everything about the ecology there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3539\" data-end=\"3736\">I was embedded with the soils team, looking for microscopic animals that could tell us more about the ecosystem. Our team is known as the “worm herders,” because we’re always looking for nematodes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3738\" data-end=\"3899\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3738\" data-end=\"3758\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When people think of Antarctica, they imagine snow-swept ice and cute penguins huddled together. That’s not what these dry valleys are like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3901\" data-end=\"4089\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3901\" data-end=\"3919\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. Most of Antarctica is covered in ice—up to three miles thick in some places. It’s larger than the U.S. and Mexico combined, and 98 percent of it is covered in ice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4091\" data-end=\"4364\">But the largest ice-free area is the dry valleys, and it’s very Mars-like. This isn’t due to climate change—it’s because a mountain range blocks the ice sheet from entering the area. So you get this dry, arid environment where you can actually walk on the continent itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4366\" data-end=\"4463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4366\" data-end=\"4386\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When you say “Mars-like,” do you mean just cold, or something more specific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4465\" data-end=\"4630\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4465\" data-end=\"4483\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Multiple things. It’s cold, but the dryness is key—humidity below 10 percent, almost no precipitation. No rain at all, and only rare light snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4632\" data-end=\"4741\">You also have six months of total darkness and six months of total daylight because it’s near the South Pole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4743\" data-end=\"4846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4743\" data-end=\"4763\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. So the C-130 drops you at McMurdo Station. What are your accommodations like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4848\" data-end=\"5055\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4848\" data-end=\"4866\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> We stay at McMurdo for the first week because everyone has to go through training—survival training, environmental protocols, learning how to camp, what to do if you’re stuck in a storm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5100\">So that first week is constant preparation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5102\" data-end=\"5142\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5102\" data-end=\"5122\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Were you terrified?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5289\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5162\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No—because of the training. You’re never alone, and you always know what to do. The U.S. Antarctic Program is very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5291\" data-end=\"5461\">When they drop you off by helicopter, they give you survival bags—so if a storm prevents pickup, you can camp and survive on your own. Everything is meticulously planned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5463\" data-end=\"5512\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5463\" data-end=\"5483\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What’s in the survival gear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5514\" data-end=\"5610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5514\" data-end=\"5532\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Rations, tents, cooking equipment—basic survival camping gear to hunker down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5612\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5612\" data-end=\"5632\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s this incredible shot in your docuseries where you’re flying over ice in a helicopter. Can you see anything down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5877\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5779\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Over the sea ice, yes—you can see little specks of penguins, seals, even orcas. It’s thrilling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5879\" data-end=\"6180\">But once you enter the dry valleys, it’s different. A hundred years ago, explorers called it the “Valley of the Dead,” because nothing seems to live there. Occasionally you’ll find mummified seals or penguins—animals that wandered in and couldn’t survive. The dry conditions preserve them for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6182\" data-end=\"6366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6182\" data-end=\"6202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. So the helicopter drops you off in this place, and there’s that drone shot—it’s just you and a handful of people, and nothing else for miles. Were you scared?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6368\" data-end=\"6458\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6368\" data-end=\"6386\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. Again, you’re well trained. It’s not terrifying—it’s just… alien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6460\" data-end=\"6603\">The strangest feeling is thinking, “No one would believe this.” Every footstep echoes, and it feels like another planet, but you’re on Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6605\" data-end=\"6737\">I mostly wished I could bring more people there to experience it. That’s why I made the series—because words alone don’t capture it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6739\" data-end=\"6985\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6739\" data-end=\"6759\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with documentary filmmaker and National Geographic Explorer Ariel Waldman about her new series \u003cem data-start=\"6869\" data-end=\"6884\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>, which looks at ecosystems in Antarctica and North American prairies. It premieres tonight on PBS.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6987\" data-end=\"7136\">Let’s bring listeners into the conversation. Have you been to Antarctica? Do you want to go? Give us a call: 866-733-6786, or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7119\" data-end=\"7133\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7138\" data-end=\"7241\">Spending time in these Mars-like dry valleys—has that changed how you think about humans going to Mars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7243\" data-end=\"7418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7243\" data-end=\"7261\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I served on a National Academy of Sciences committee looking at the sustainability of human spaceflight and the possibility of a Mars program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7420\" data-end=\"7571\">A lot of people think going to Mars is just one step harder than the Moon—but it’s far more difficult. The distance, the atmosphere—it’s a huge leap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7573\" data-end=\"7756\">It’s possible we could land humans on Mars someday, but it would require enormous funding, political will, and international collaboration. It’s not something one nation can do alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7758\" data-end=\"7802\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7758\" data-end=\"7778\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Why multiple countries?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7804\" data-end=\"7935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7804\" data-end=\"7822\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Because it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars over decades. Even the U.S. would struggle to do it alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7937\" data-end=\"7992\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7937\" data-end=\"7957\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So it’s not going to be Elon Musk?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7994\" data-end=\"8185\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7994\" data-end=\"8012\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Not alone. It requires collaboration. And if you’ve been paying attention, even he’s shifted focus more toward the Moon. I think he’s encountering some of those challenges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8187\" data-end=\"8368\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8187\" data-end=\"8207\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Ariel Waldman about her new documentary series \u003cem data-start=\"8274\" data-end=\"8289\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>. We’ll learn more about Antarctica’s ecosystems—and our own—after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8370\" data-end=\"8435\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">You can call us at 866-733-6786. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "A Close Look at the Earth's Tiniest, and its Most Vast, Wonders | KQED",
"description": "Airdate: Wednesday, April 1 at 9 AM National Geographic Explorer and documentary filmmaker Ariel Waldman challenges our sense of scale in her new PBS series “Life Unearthed” which explores Earth’s ecosystems– from microscopic life in the alien terrains of Antarctica to the sweeping American Prairies. We talk with Waldman about the series and what life in the seemingly barren environments of Antarctica reveal about resilient creatures, climate change, and even the possibilities of life beyond Earth. This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors. Alexis Madrigal: Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, April 1 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>National Geographic Explorer and documentary filmmaker Ariel Waldman challenges our sense of scale in her new PBS series “Life Unearthed” which explores Earth’s ecosystems– from microscopic life in the alien terrains of Antarctica to the sweeping American Prairies. We talk with Waldman about the series and what life in the seemingly barren environments of Antarctica reveal about resilient creatures, climate change, and even the possibilities of life beyond Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-(--header-height)\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"4f42c0c2-fbc3-4129-bb01-1f2141590c0a\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-1\" data-scroll-anchor=\"false\" data-turn=\"user\">\u003c/section>\n\u003csection class=\"text-token-text-primary w-full focus:outline-none [--shadow-height:45px] has-data-writing-block:pointer-events-none has-data-writing-block:-mt-(--shadow-height) has-data-writing-block:pt-(--shadow-height) [&:has([data-writing-block])>*]:pointer-events-auto scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]\" dir=\"auto\" data-turn-id=\"request-WEB:259eeb49-03f0-4653-9c2f-68b6c5a23887-0\" data-testid=\"conversation-turn-2\" data-scroll-anchor=\"true\" data-turn=\"assistant\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"text-base my-auto mx-auto pb-10 [--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-xs,calc(var(--spacing)*4))] @w-sm/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-sm,calc(var(--spacing)*6))] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-margin:var(--thread-content-margin-lg,calc(var(--spacing)*16))] px-(--thread-content-margin)\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"[--thread-content-max-width:40rem] @w-lg/main:[--thread-content-max-width:48rem] mx-auto max-w-(--thread-content-max-width) flex-1 group/turn-messages focus-visible:outline-hidden relative flex w-full min-w-0 flex-col agent-turn\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex max-w-full flex-col gap-4 grow\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"min-h-8 text-message relative flex w-full flex-col items-end gap-2 text-start break-words whitespace-normal outline-none keyboard-focused:focus-ring [.text-message+&]:mt-1\" dir=\"auto\" data-message-author-role=\"assistant\" data-message-id=\"6389efe3-43d6-47ac-bf4b-984499a8616d\" data-message-model-slug=\"gpt-5-3\" data-turn-start-message=\"true\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"flex w-full flex-col gap-1 empty:hidden\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"markdown prose dark:prose-invert w-full wrap-break-word light markdown-new-styling\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"328\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. I cannot be alone in having always wanted to go to Antarctica. Something about the sheer strangeness of the landscape and the remoteness of the place—something about the lack of human degradation, something about the sheer challenge of getting there and surviving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"330\" data-end=\"623\">Our guest this morning, Ariel Waldman, not only spent two months in Antarctica with a research team, she also managed to film a full-fledged documentary by herself with her menagerie of cameras. The first episodes of that work, \u003cem data-start=\"558\" data-end=\"573\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>, debut tonight on PBS. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"608\" data-end=\"615\">Forum\u003c/em>, Ariel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"698\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"643\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me. Really happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"700\" data-end=\"919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"700\" data-end=\"720\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And of course, I should say PBS is KQED TV. Perfect. Okay, let’s talk about going to Antarctica. I’m just going to live vicariously through you. How did you get cleared to go? How did you get there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"921\" data-end=\"1228\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"921\" data-end=\"939\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Well, yeah. So getting cleared to go to Antarctica is a multi-month process. You have to get what we call “PQ’d,” which is physically qualified. So you go through a whole bunch of tests—seeing doctors, drawing blood, getting physical exams, everything. That’s all the preliminary stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1230\" data-end=\"1438\">But actually getting to Antarctica is a multi-hour, multi-day journey. From my home in San Francisco, I fly all the way to New Zealand. And from New Zealand, we take a C-130 military aircraft for eight hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1440\" data-end=\"1495\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1440\" data-end=\"1460\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wait—what’s it like on the inside?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1497\" data-end=\"1651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1497\" data-end=\"1515\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> On a C-130, it’s cramped. It was not meant for passengers. There are no seats—only cargo netting. You travel like that for eight hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1653\" data-end=\"1739\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1653\" data-end=\"1673\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So by “no seats,” you mean there are nets and you sit on the net?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1741\" data-end=\"1783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1741\" data-end=\"1759\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> You sit on the netting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1785\" data-end=\"1821\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1785\" data-end=\"1805\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Like a hammock?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1823\" data-end=\"2132\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1823\" data-end=\"1841\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> You sit on the netting, and they pack it full. You’re literally interweaving your knees with all of your fellow passengers because there’s not enough room to even put your legs together. So you’re crisscrossed with everyone on the plane for eight hours. And by the way, there’s no bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2179\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2134\" data-end=\"2154\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wait—so what do you use?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2181\" data-end=\"2353\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2181\" data-end=\"2199\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> There’s literally a bucket—like a paint bucket—and they put a curtain around it. For eight hours, that’s the only place you have to go to the bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2355\" data-end=\"2603\">It could even be longer than eight hours, because when you take this journey, you might encounter really bad weather, be unable to land in Antarctica, and then they’ll just boomerang you back to New Zealand. Then you have to try again the next day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2605\" data-end=\"2675\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2605\" data-end=\"2625\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh my God. So there are no snacks, you’re saying?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2677\" data-end=\"2763\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2677\" data-end=\"2695\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> They give you a little lunch pack, but yeah—it’s pretty bare-bones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2765\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2765\" data-end=\"2785\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s like Meals Ready to Eat—very military in that way. Wow. That’s so interesting. So who are you on there with? Other scientists, but also support staff, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3201\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"2968\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Yes. A lot of staff, a lot of support personnel, a lot of scientists. Because the New Zealand and American bases are so close together, you get a lot of Kiwi researchers alongside Antarctic researchers, and we all fly down together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3203\" data-end=\"3311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3203\" data-end=\"3223\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And what were you going down there to do? What kind of research were you involved with?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3313\" data-end=\"3537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3313\" data-end=\"3331\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> I was on the McMurdo Dry Valleys Long-Term Ecological Research team—which is a mouthful. They’ve been studying this Mars-like environment for over 30 years, looking at everything about the ecology there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3539\" data-end=\"3736\">I was embedded with the soils team, looking for microscopic animals that could tell us more about the ecosystem. Our team is known as the “worm herders,” because we’re always looking for nematodes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3738\" data-end=\"3899\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3738\" data-end=\"3758\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When people think of Antarctica, they imagine snow-swept ice and cute penguins huddled together. That’s not what these dry valleys are like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3901\" data-end=\"4089\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3901\" data-end=\"3919\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. Most of Antarctica is covered in ice—up to three miles thick in some places. It’s larger than the U.S. and Mexico combined, and 98 percent of it is covered in ice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4091\" data-end=\"4364\">But the largest ice-free area is the dry valleys, and it’s very Mars-like. This isn’t due to climate change—it’s because a mountain range blocks the ice sheet from entering the area. So you get this dry, arid environment where you can actually walk on the continent itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4366\" data-end=\"4463\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4366\" data-end=\"4386\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> When you say “Mars-like,” do you mean just cold, or something more specific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4465\" data-end=\"4630\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4465\" data-end=\"4483\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Multiple things. It’s cold, but the dryness is key—humidity below 10 percent, almost no precipitation. No rain at all, and only rare light snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4632\" data-end=\"4741\">You also have six months of total darkness and six months of total daylight because it’s near the South Pole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4743\" data-end=\"4846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4743\" data-end=\"4763\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. So the C-130 drops you at McMurdo Station. What are your accommodations like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4848\" data-end=\"5055\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4848\" data-end=\"4866\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> We stay at McMurdo for the first week because everyone has to go through training—survival training, environmental protocols, learning how to camp, what to do if you’re stuck in a storm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5100\">So that first week is constant preparation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5102\" data-end=\"5142\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5102\" data-end=\"5122\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Were you terrified?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5289\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5144\" data-end=\"5162\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No—because of the training. You’re never alone, and you always know what to do. The U.S. Antarctic Program is very thorough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5291\" data-end=\"5461\">When they drop you off by helicopter, they give you survival bags—so if a storm prevents pickup, you can camp and survive on your own. Everything is meticulously planned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5463\" data-end=\"5512\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5463\" data-end=\"5483\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What’s in the survival gear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5514\" data-end=\"5610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5514\" data-end=\"5532\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Rations, tents, cooking equipment—basic survival camping gear to hunker down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5612\" data-end=\"5759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5612\" data-end=\"5632\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s this incredible shot in your docuseries where you’re flying over ice in a helicopter. Can you see anything down there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5877\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5761\" data-end=\"5779\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Over the sea ice, yes—you can see little specks of penguins, seals, even orcas. It’s thrilling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5879\" data-end=\"6180\">But once you enter the dry valleys, it’s different. A hundred years ago, explorers called it the “Valley of the Dead,” because nothing seems to live there. Occasionally you’ll find mummified seals or penguins—animals that wandered in and couldn’t survive. The dry conditions preserve them for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6182\" data-end=\"6366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6182\" data-end=\"6202\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. So the helicopter drops you off in this place, and there’s that drone shot—it’s just you and a handful of people, and nothing else for miles. Were you scared?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6368\" data-end=\"6458\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6368\" data-end=\"6386\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> No. Again, you’re well trained. It’s not terrifying—it’s just… alien.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6460\" data-end=\"6603\">The strangest feeling is thinking, “No one would believe this.” Every footstep echoes, and it feels like another planet, but you’re on Earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6605\" data-end=\"6737\">I mostly wished I could bring more people there to experience it. That’s why I made the series—because words alone don’t capture it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6739\" data-end=\"6985\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6739\" data-end=\"6759\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with documentary filmmaker and National Geographic Explorer Ariel Waldman about her new series \u003cem data-start=\"6869\" data-end=\"6884\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>, which looks at ecosystems in Antarctica and North American prairies. It premieres tonight on PBS.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6987\" data-end=\"7136\">Let’s bring listeners into the conversation. Have you been to Antarctica? Do you want to go? Give us a call: 866-733-6786, or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7119\" data-end=\"7133\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7138\" data-end=\"7241\">Spending time in these Mars-like dry valleys—has that changed how you think about humans going to Mars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7243\" data-end=\"7418\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7243\" data-end=\"7261\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. I served on a National Academy of Sciences committee looking at the sustainability of human spaceflight and the possibility of a Mars program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7420\" data-end=\"7571\">A lot of people think going to Mars is just one step harder than the Moon—but it’s far more difficult. The distance, the atmosphere—it’s a huge leap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7573\" data-end=\"7756\">It’s possible we could land humans on Mars someday, but it would require enormous funding, political will, and international collaboration. It’s not something one nation can do alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7758\" data-end=\"7802\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7758\" data-end=\"7778\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Why multiple countries?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7804\" data-end=\"7935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7804\" data-end=\"7822\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Because it would cost hundreds of billions of dollars over decades. Even the U.S. would struggle to do it alone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7937\" data-end=\"7992\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7937\" data-end=\"7957\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So it’s not going to be Elon Musk?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7994\" data-end=\"8185\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7994\" data-end=\"8012\">Ariel Waldman:\u003c/strong> Not alone. It requires collaboration. And if you’ve been paying attention, even he’s shifted focus more toward the Moon. I think he’s encountering some of those challenges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8187\" data-end=\"8368\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8187\" data-end=\"8207\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Ariel Waldman about her new documentary series \u003cem data-start=\"8274\" data-end=\"8289\">Life on Earth\u003c/em>. We’ll learn more about Antarctica’s ecosystems—and our own—after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8370\" data-end=\"8435\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">You can call us at 866-733-6786. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/section>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Is emphasizing the cold, hard facts of climate change – the acres lost to sea level rise, the percentage increase of global warming – actually the right approach for getting people to act? “If we want climate progress in energy, transportation and agriculture, we need progress in pop culture, media and sports,” writes longtime energy and climate reporter Sammy Roth. Roth and climate media advocates argue that seeing electric vehicles in movies like “Barbie,” induction stoves on HGTV or a whole team protesting an oil company in “Ted Lasso” show how climate conscious realities can easily exist — and inspire viewers to advocate and take action. We’ll talk about why storytelling in film, TV and advertising has such a powerful sway over us, and take stock of the landscape of climate change depictions on your screens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Laura Klivens, in for Mina Kim. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. I’ve written about wildfires, heat waves, the strain on our energy grid, and I read plenty of stories that hold powerful groups accountable or report on system failures. Those stories are necessary, but are they enough?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the people who may not read that kind of reporting, how else can climate messages be shared? There’s this episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where one character realizes his team’s sponsor is connected to an oil company causing destruction in his home country of Nigeria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ted Lasso (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dubai Air is owned by a horrible company, one that has turned the southern coast of Nigeria, my home, into a hellish, fiery swamp. I can no longer wear that name on my chest. Never again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He starts a movement among the whole team, and they put duct tape over the fictitious sponsor’s name on their jerseys. It’s a climate message without saying too much about being a climate message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out there’s a whole network of people intentionally bringing climate into the entertainment industry this way—directors, TV writers, advertisers. Can inspiring action on climate be more effective when we approach the issue through culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll break that down today. Joining us are Sammy Roth, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Colored Goggles\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a newsletter about climate and culture; Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, national climate strategist, founder of Climate Critical, and board member of Good Energy, an organization focused on Hollywood climate storytelling; and Jessica Kutz, lead climate reporter at The 19th. Welcome, everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy to be here, Laura.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great. Thank you all for being here. I want to start off with a story I thought was really impressive—that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> example. What’s one great climate story each of you has recently seen on film or TV? Sammy, can we start with you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s such a good question. I recently wrote a piece about the new Pixar film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m glad you brought up the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> episode, by the way, because that’s such a fabulous example and one of my favorites as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say, is even less explicit. There’s no oil company, no story centered on a heat wave or renewable energy—nothing you can directly point to as a climate plotline. But if folks haven’t seen it yet, it’s about animals coming together to stop a freeway overpass from destroying a forest glade, one of the last protected wild spaces outside a city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The movie keeps poking fun at human car culture and the drive for bigger roads and bigger cars. There’s even a joke that the freeway would only get people places up to four minutes faster. The city is called Beaverton, named after the beavers who are the main characters, and the proposed “Beaverton Loop” would literally connect Beaverton to itself—a truly pointless freeway project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The main human character is a teenage girl who loves nature and wildlife. She uses this fictional technology to “hop” into the mind of one of the beavers and help them protect their habitat. It’s a great parable about development and whether humans can learn to value things beyond their own convenience and consumption. There’s even a fire at the end. It’s a fabulous story, and I’d recommend people go see it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, thank you. Tamara, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, I’m such a nerd about this stuff. Over the holiday season, two films unexpectedly brought climate change into the story in ways I thought were both subtle and really effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of them was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turkey Hollow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, narrated by Ludacris. It’s a classic Muppet film where the villain is basically a large-scale industrial farmer, and the hero is one of those “darn environmentalists.” It just drops into the plot at the beginning and then moves on naturally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dashing Through the Snow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the Christmas movie with Lil Rel Howery as Santa Claus. At one point, Santa mentions that they stopped putting coal in stockings because it’s bad for the climate, so now everyone gets cauliflower instead. I loved that. I even went online afterward just to say I saw that moment and appreciated it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s great. I love that. Jessica, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a story I recently wrote on climate change and storytelling, someone brought up an episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grey’s Anatomy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> centered on a heat dome. It was meant to mirror the one that hit the Pacific Northwest in 2021.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The episode focused on the public health impacts and how a hospital responds during an extreme heat event. I really connected with it because I live in Tucson, where we recently had one of our earliest 100-degree days on record, and we’re only a couple hours from Phoenix. Heat is always on my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was interesting to see a weather event like that dramatized for a larger audience. I don’t even think they explicitly mentioned climate change, but it really captured a situation people have lived through recently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tamara, what element of storytelling do you think makes these stories effective, especially compared with the doom-and-gloom headlines we often see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As I mentioned, I’m on the board of Good Energy, which is a fantastic group working to improve climate storytelling. They came up with something called the climate reality check, which is basically a test for whether climate is actually present in a story and whether it matters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are three parts: first, the story is set on Earth. Second, the story acknowledges that climate change is happening, or has happened if it’s set in the future. Third, there’s a character who recognizes it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really useful shorthand for asking whether climate change is meaningfully present in a film. In both of the examples I mentioned, climate was tied directly to characters and plot, even in subtle ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So you’d be fine with the cauliflower stocking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I love cauliflower.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sammy, why do these smaller, passing references matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They matter because, if you look at polling, most Americans say they care about climate change and are concerned about it. A large majority say they support climate action and clean energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when people are asked how high a priority climate is when they vote, it ranks much lower—behind the economy, immigration, and many other issues. So the more reminders people get in everyday life, the more it stays present in their minds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. We’re talking about climate storytelling and the role of entertainment in conversations about climate change with Sammy Roth, Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, and Jessica Kutz, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What have you noticed about how climate change is discussed or represented in film and TV? Did you watch \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t Look Up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">? Do you have opinions on that? Have you made changes based on climate stories you’ve seen? Give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Is emphasizing the cold, hard facts of climate change – the acres lost to sea level rise, the percentage increase of global warming – actually the right approach for getting people to act? “If we want climate progress in energy, transportation and agriculture, we need progress in pop culture, media and sports,” writes longtime energy and climate reporter Sammy Roth. Roth and climate media advocates argue that seeing electric vehicles in movies like “Barbie,” induction stoves on HGTV or a whole team protesting an oil company in “Ted Lasso” show how climate conscious realities can easily exist — and inspire viewers to advocate and take action. We’ll talk about why storytelling in film, TV and advertising has such a powerful sway over us, and take stock of the landscape of climate change depictions on your screens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Laura Klivens, in for Mina Kim. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. I’ve written about wildfires, heat waves, the strain on our energy grid, and I read plenty of stories that hold powerful groups accountable or report on system failures. Those stories are necessary, but are they enough?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the people who may not read that kind of reporting, how else can climate messages be shared? There’s this episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where one character realizes his team’s sponsor is connected to an oil company causing destruction in his home country of Nigeria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ted Lasso (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dubai Air is owned by a horrible company, one that has turned the southern coast of Nigeria, my home, into a hellish, fiery swamp. I can no longer wear that name on my chest. Never again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He starts a movement among the whole team, and they put duct tape over the fictitious sponsor’s name on their jerseys. It’s a climate message without saying too much about being a climate message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out there’s a whole network of people intentionally bringing climate into the entertainment industry this way—directors, TV writers, advertisers. Can inspiring action on climate be more effective when we approach the issue through culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll break that down today. Joining us are Sammy Roth, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Colored Goggles\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a newsletter about climate and culture; Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, national climate strategist, founder of Climate Critical, and board member of Good Energy, an organization focused on Hollywood climate storytelling; and Jessica Kutz, lead climate reporter at The 19th. Welcome, everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy to be here, Laura.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great. Thank you all for being here. I want to start off with a story I thought was really impressive—that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> example. What’s one great climate story each of you has recently seen on film or TV? Sammy, can we start with you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s such a good question. I recently wrote a piece about the new Pixar film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m glad you brought up the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> episode, by the way, because that’s such a fabulous example and one of my favorites as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say, is even less explicit. There’s no oil company, no story centered on a heat wave or renewable energy—nothing you can directly point to as a climate plotline. But if folks haven’t seen it yet, it’s about animals coming together to stop a freeway overpass from destroying a forest glade, one of the last protected wild spaces outside a city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The movie keeps poking fun at human car culture and the drive for bigger roads and bigger cars. There’s even a joke that the freeway would only get people places up to four minutes faster. The city is called Beaverton, named after the beavers who are the main characters, and the proposed “Beaverton Loop” would literally connect Beaverton to itself—a truly pointless freeway project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The main human character is a teenage girl who loves nature and wildlife. She uses this fictional technology to “hop” into the mind of one of the beavers and help them protect their habitat. It’s a great parable about development and whether humans can learn to value things beyond their own convenience and consumption. There’s even a fire at the end. It’s a fabulous story, and I’d recommend people go see it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, thank you. Tamara, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, I’m such a nerd about this stuff. Over the holiday season, two films unexpectedly brought climate change into the story in ways I thought were both subtle and really effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of them was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turkey Hollow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, narrated by Ludacris. It’s a classic Muppet film where the villain is basically a large-scale industrial farmer, and the hero is one of those “darn environmentalists.” It just drops into the plot at the beginning and then moves on naturally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dashing Through the Snow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the Christmas movie with Lil Rel Howery as Santa Claus. At one point, Santa mentions that they stopped putting coal in stockings because it’s bad for the climate, so now everyone gets cauliflower instead. I loved that. I even went online afterward just to say I saw that moment and appreciated it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s great. I love that. Jessica, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a story I recently wrote on climate change and storytelling, someone brought up an episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grey’s Anatomy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> centered on a heat dome. It was meant to mirror the one that hit the Pacific Northwest in 2021.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The episode focused on the public health impacts and how a hospital responds during an extreme heat event. I really connected with it because I live in Tucson, where we recently had one of our earliest 100-degree days on record, and we’re only a couple hours from Phoenix. Heat is always on my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was interesting to see a weather event like that dramatized for a larger audience. I don’t even think they explicitly mentioned climate change, but it really captured a situation people have lived through recently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tamara, what element of storytelling do you think makes these stories effective, especially compared with the doom-and-gloom headlines we often see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As I mentioned, I’m on the board of Good Energy, which is a fantastic group working to improve climate storytelling. They came up with something called the climate reality check, which is basically a test for whether climate is actually present in a story and whether it matters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are three parts: first, the story is set on Earth. Second, the story acknowledges that climate change is happening, or has happened if it’s set in the future. Third, there’s a character who recognizes it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really useful shorthand for asking whether climate change is meaningfully present in a film. In both of the examples I mentioned, climate was tied directly to characters and plot, even in subtle ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So you’d be fine with the cauliflower stocking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I love cauliflower.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sammy, why do these smaller, passing references matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They matter because, if you look at polling, most Americans say they care about climate change and are concerned about it. A large majority say they support climate action and clean energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when people are asked how high a priority climate is when they vote, it ranks much lower—behind the economy, immigration, and many other issues. So the more reminders people get in everyday life, the more it stays present in their minds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"order": 8
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"hyphenacion": {
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
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"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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"latino-usa": {
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"title": "Latino USA",
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"meta": {
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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