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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forced arbitration clauses are buried in everything from product warranties to bank loans to employment contracts, often requiring consumers and workers to give up their right to sue without realizing it. Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor and co-founder of the Public Integrity Project, says arbitration has become an opaque, parallel legal system that favors corporations and undermines the rule of law. We’ll talk to Ballou about new book, “When Companies Run the Courts,” which looks at why forced arbitration has become so widespread and what states like California are doing to restrict it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. If you’ve signed up for a credit card, the warranty on a product, or accepted a job, you’ve likely agreed at some point to arbitration to settle any disputes rather than go through the courts. Forced arbitration promises to be a faster, easier way to reach resolution, but it’s a process that Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor, says is too often biased in favor of corporations. In this system, decisions are hidden from the public and cannot be appealed, he writes. Judges decide their own powers and are often paid for by the companies they’re supposed to judge. Ballou’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts. Listeners, do you think forced arbitration is flawed? What’s been your experience? Brendan, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, you said forced arbitration touches virtually every part of our lives. How often are we being asked to agree to arbitration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, the most recent studies say that there are more forced arbitration agreements than there are American citizens, and I think that probably dramatically understates the number of agreements. So about eighty percent of Fortune 500 companies use forced arbitration either with their consumers or employees. At least sixty million private sector workers are bound by forced arbitration. And if you just sort of think anecdotally about your own life, all the little click-to-accept agreements that you have when you buy a new product online or even visit a website — overwhelmingly, I would say those agreements increasingly have forced arbitration terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so, basically, the overall effect is that it’s just much harder to bring a case to court against a company that has this. Right? That it was, you know, something that we had the right to do maybe a few generations ago more frequently than we do now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I think to the extent that people feel that companies are increasingly beyond the reach of the law, it’s because they literally are, and forced arbitration is the explanation. So, you know, just to set a baseline here — when we’re talking about forced arbitration, and you teed this up very, very clearly — we’re talking about a private alternative to the traditional justice system. So instead of having a judge, you have what’s called a private arbitrator decide the case. But importantly, that decision is binding, and yet the decision-making process, the proceedings, are in secret. As you say, they can’t be appealed. And I think most importantly — and I think this kind of gets to the heart of why the system so often fails — is the arbitrator is often paid for by the company getting sued. And so they have a natural incentive to rule for the party that is effectively their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So to help us understand these features of forced arbitration in a real-life example, you tell the story of the Piccolos. Can you explain what happened to them when they visited Walt Disney World?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the Piccolos were a couple that, as you said, wanted to go to Walt Disney World. Jeffrey Piccolo’s wife, Kanokporn Tangsuan, had severe allergies, and so they had to be very careful about where they were going to eat. They went to this sort of faux Irish pub and, at least according to their subsequent allegations, were very careful about what they ordered. They repeatedly asked the wait staff for assurances that the food would be allergen-free. They were repeatedly assured that it would be. Very tragically, it was not. And Tangsuan died of anaphylactic shock shortly thereafter. The problem for Jeffrey Piccolo was that when he tried to sue for wrongful death, Disney actually moved to compel Piccolo into arbitration — among other reasons because he had signed an arbitration agreement as part of his Disney+ account several years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So wait a second. He signed up for a streaming service and by doing so gave up the right to ever bring Disney to court if they went to a theme park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And increasingly, companies have been arguing — and arguing successfully — that arbitration agreements in seemingly unrelated contracts can nevertheless bind you. You know, you have stories about a woman who was allegedly racially discriminated against at a Walmart, forced into arbitration because she had signed up for their gig delivery service several months or several years prior. You have an example of a father who had to arbitrate the wrongful death of his son, who was murdered at an Airbnb, because he himself had an Airbnb contract. So, you know, there are all sorts of agreements that we’re signing every day that may bind us in ways that we might not even expect or foresee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about forced arbitration, and what are your reactions to the stories that you’re hearing? Have you ever been forced into arbitration? What was that process like for you? Or maybe you’re an arbitrator or have represented clients in arbitration — what would you like to tell us? You can email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, or by calling 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So, Brendan, this is often how people find out that they agreed to forced arbitration, right — when they have a moment where they do want to make a complaint or try to sue a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And I think we don’t really realize the extent to which we’re signing away our rights, because it’s not just that you have to pursue arbitration and can’t go into court. Very often, these agreements require that you go to arbitration individually. And the reason that that matters is it effectively kills class actions — the cases that you bring when hundreds or thousands or millions of people are harmed in the same way. When you have to bring your case in arbitration individually, it makes it economically unaffordable to pursue justice for all but the most serious or deadly harms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there a good reason to create more obstacles to class action lawsuits? You know, we hear about how state courts can be overloaded by these things in some places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that has been a sort of meme in American consciousness for several decades — this idea of a litigation explosion that’s burdening courts and companies that we’re ultimately footing the bill for. Whether or not that is true, I think it’s important for your listeners to understand that millions of dollars have been spent to get you to have that belief. And in fact, the most thorough studies that we’ve got on the supposed litigation explosion that precipitated this attack on class actions suggest that the litigation explosion may never have occurred, or didn’t occur the way that we thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So there was a great study, from, I believe, 1978 to 1984, which was sort of the key moment when cases supposedly took off. It turns out that the growth in cases — and there was a growth in cases — was actually driven in large part not by people suing companies, but by the government suing people. There was a renewed emphasis on suing Social Security beneficiaries and veterans to try to claw back their various benefits. The explosion, such as it occurred for companies, was actually just limited to asbestos litigation. And in fact, the kinds of cases that companies normally care about — securities cases, antitrust cases, and so forth — actually declined over that period of time. So, you know, there has been this long-standing argument that because of this growth in litigation, we need to pare back or destroy class actions. I’m not sure the history really backs that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was asking you earlier about how people often find out that they’ve agreed to forced arbitration. Can you put some fault on the person for not reading the terms of service? Like, how hard is it to often find that you are agreeing to this in terms of service agreements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s hard, and unfortunately the Supreme Court has made it harder. The Montana legislature back in the nineties passed a law that said that if you’re going to have a forced arbitration agreement in your contract, you have to say so on the first page of the agreement. The Supreme Court actually invalidated that law and, somewhat ironically, said that it discriminated against arbitration agreements for doing that. So, you know, oftentimes these agreements are really buried in contracts, and courts have made it so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So walk us through, in the Piccolos’ case, what is different about resolving a case like this in arbitration as opposed to in a courtroom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, when you think about the features of a courtroom — or the rule of law more generally — they’re so fundamental that oftentimes they don’t even really occur to you. And one of the most important is that proceedings happen by and large in public. That makes sure that the proceedings are fair, that they’re like other proceedings, that there aren’t hidden side deals. And importantly, when a judge makes a mistake, that judge’s opinion can generally be appealed to somebody else to try to correct that error.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">None of those things necessarily happen in forced arbitration. Proceedings are in secret. Decisions are not public — oftentimes they’re not even shared. And it’s actually harder to appeal the decision of a private arbitrator than it is to appeal the decision of a judge. And I think all of this goes to the core of the rule of law. If there is a core to the rule of law, it’s that similar cases are treated similarly. And when you have law developing in isolation and in secret, people can’t draw on the decisions of past cases. You really sort of lose the core of what the rule of law is, and decisions become increasingly arbitrary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what about the process itself? Like, can you bring evidence? What is the procedure like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s a great question. The answer — and it’s a very standard lawyer answer — is it depends. There’s a huge variation across arbitration companies, the companies that actually provide arbitration, and the kinds of cases, about what somebody can get. Can you file procedural motions? Can you get discovery? Can you do depositions? In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. And importantly, it’s private companies that provide arbitrators, and those companies have to get business themselves. So oftentimes, they will have to evolve or change their rules so that they are going to be able to get large corporate business. And in fact, you have some extreme examples — for instance, of a gig company working with a smaller, less reputable arbitration provider to literally write the rules of the arbitration process together, and then forcing all of their gig users onto that arbitration platform.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you’re saying that the company can pick the arbitrator and is sometimes even paying for that particular arbitration company. I mean, you give us an extreme example here with Google as well. But basically, what you’re describing sounds like a really intense conflict of interest. Is that something that has to be disclosed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> No. Not necessarily. And I’ll say, as a practicing lawyer, I have appeared in front of arbitrators representing clients. And by and large, overwhelmingly, the arbitrators that I’ve appeared in front of are trying to do the right thing. But the natural economic incentives of how arbitration works naturally incline arbitrators towards a certain direction. And you see it in the statistics — overwhelmingly, consumers and employees lose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Brendan Ballou about forced arbitration and how forced arbitration clauses appear in everything from employment contracts to credit card terms, and the impacts they can have on workers and consumers — and also how an arbitration procedure can be carried out. Listeners, you can share your questions at 866-733-6786, on our social channels — Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> — or by emailing \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Brendan’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts: How Forced Arbitration Became America’s Secret Justice System. More with him and with you after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Forced arbitration clauses are buried in everything from product warranties to bank loans to employment contracts, often requiring consumers and workers to give up their right to sue without realizing it. Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor and co-founder of the Public Integrity Project, says arbitration has become an opaque, parallel legal system that favors corporations and undermines the rule of law. We’ll talk to Ballou about new book, “When Companies Run the Courts,” which looks at why forced arbitration has become so widespread and what states like California are doing to restrict it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. If you’ve signed up for a credit card, the warranty on a product, or accepted a job, you’ve likely agreed at some point to arbitration to settle any disputes rather than go through the courts. Forced arbitration promises to be a faster, easier way to reach resolution, but it’s a process that Brendan Ballou, a former federal prosecutor, says is too often biased in favor of corporations. In this system, decisions are hidden from the public and cannot be appealed, he writes. Judges decide their own powers and are often paid for by the companies they’re supposed to judge. Ballou’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts. Listeners, do you think forced arbitration is flawed? What’s been your experience? Brendan, welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, you said forced arbitration touches virtually every part of our lives. How often are we being asked to agree to arbitration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, the most recent studies say that there are more forced arbitration agreements than there are American citizens, and I think that probably dramatically understates the number of agreements. So about eighty percent of Fortune 500 companies use forced arbitration either with their consumers or employees. At least sixty million private sector workers are bound by forced arbitration. And if you just sort of think anecdotally about your own life, all the little click-to-accept agreements that you have when you buy a new product online or even visit a website — overwhelmingly, I would say those agreements increasingly have forced arbitration terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so, basically, the overall effect is that it’s just much harder to bring a case to court against a company that has this. Right? That it was, you know, something that we had the right to do maybe a few generations ago more frequently than we do now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. And I think to the extent that people feel that companies are increasingly beyond the reach of the law, it’s because they literally are, and forced arbitration is the explanation. So, you know, just to set a baseline here — when we’re talking about forced arbitration, and you teed this up very, very clearly — we’re talking about a private alternative to the traditional justice system. So instead of having a judge, you have what’s called a private arbitrator decide the case. But importantly, that decision is binding, and yet the decision-making process, the proceedings, are in secret. As you say, they can’t be appealed. And I think most importantly — and I think this kind of gets to the heart of why the system so often fails — is the arbitrator is often paid for by the company getting sued. And so they have a natural incentive to rule for the party that is effectively their employer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So to help us understand these features of forced arbitration in a real-life example, you tell the story of the Piccolos. Can you explain what happened to them when they visited Walt Disney World?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So the Piccolos were a couple that, as you said, wanted to go to Walt Disney World. Jeffrey Piccolo’s wife, Kanokporn Tangsuan, had severe allergies, and so they had to be very careful about where they were going to eat. They went to this sort of faux Irish pub and, at least according to their subsequent allegations, were very careful about what they ordered. They repeatedly asked the wait staff for assurances that the food would be allergen-free. They were repeatedly assured that it would be. Very tragically, it was not. And Tangsuan died of anaphylactic shock shortly thereafter. The problem for Jeffrey Piccolo was that when he tried to sue for wrongful death, Disney actually moved to compel Piccolo into arbitration — among other reasons because he had signed an arbitration agreement as part of his Disney+ account several years earlier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So wait a second. He signed up for a streaming service and by doing so gave up the right to ever bring Disney to court if they went to a theme park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And increasingly, companies have been arguing — and arguing successfully — that arbitration agreements in seemingly unrelated contracts can nevertheless bind you. You know, you have stories about a woman who was allegedly racially discriminated against at a Walmart, forced into arbitration because she had signed up for their gig delivery service several months or several years prior. You have an example of a father who had to arbitrate the wrongful death of his son, who was murdered at an Airbnb, because he himself had an Airbnb contract. So, you know, there are all sorts of agreements that we’re signing every day that may bind us in ways that we might not even expect or foresee.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What questions do you have about forced arbitration, and what are your reactions to the stories that you’re hearing? Have you ever been forced into arbitration? What was that process like for you? Or maybe you’re an arbitrator or have represented clients in arbitration — what would you like to tell us? You can email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>, or by calling 866-733-6786. 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So, Brendan, this is often how people find out that they agreed to forced arbitration, right — when they have a moment where they do want to make a complaint or try to sue a company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And I think we don’t really realize the extent to which we’re signing away our rights, because it’s not just that you have to pursue arbitration and can’t go into court. Very often, these agreements require that you go to arbitration individually. And the reason that that matters is it effectively kills class actions — the cases that you bring when hundreds or thousands or millions of people are harmed in the same way. When you have to bring your case in arbitration individually, it makes it economically unaffordable to pursue justice for all but the most serious or deadly harms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is there a good reason to create more obstacles to class action lawsuits? You know, we hear about how state courts can be overloaded by these things in some places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that has been a sort of meme in American consciousness for several decades — this idea of a litigation explosion that’s burdening courts and companies that we’re ultimately footing the bill for. Whether or not that is true, I think it’s important for your listeners to understand that millions of dollars have been spent to get you to have that belief. And in fact, the most thorough studies that we’ve got on the supposed litigation explosion that precipitated this attack on class actions suggest that the litigation explosion may never have occurred, or didn’t occur the way that we thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So there was a great study, from, I believe, 1978 to 1984, which was sort of the key moment when cases supposedly took off. It turns out that the growth in cases — and there was a growth in cases — was actually driven in large part not by people suing companies, but by the government suing people. There was a renewed emphasis on suing Social Security beneficiaries and veterans to try to claw back their various benefits. The explosion, such as it occurred for companies, was actually just limited to asbestos litigation. And in fact, the kinds of cases that companies normally care about — securities cases, antitrust cases, and so forth — actually declined over that period of time. So, you know, there has been this long-standing argument that because of this growth in litigation, we need to pare back or destroy class actions. I’m not sure the history really backs that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I was asking you earlier about how people often find out that they’ve agreed to forced arbitration. Can you put some fault on the person for not reading the terms of service? Like, how hard is it to often find that you are agreeing to this in terms of service agreements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s hard, and unfortunately the Supreme Court has made it harder. The Montana legislature back in the nineties passed a law that said that if you’re going to have a forced arbitration agreement in your contract, you have to say so on the first page of the agreement. The Supreme Court actually invalidated that law and, somewhat ironically, said that it discriminated against arbitration agreements for doing that. So, you know, oftentimes these agreements are really buried in contracts, and courts have made it so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So walk us through, in the Piccolos’ case, what is different about resolving a case like this in arbitration as opposed to in a courtroom?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So, you know, when you think about the features of a courtroom — or the rule of law more generally — they’re so fundamental that oftentimes they don’t even really occur to you. And one of the most important is that proceedings happen by and large in public. That makes sure that the proceedings are fair, that they’re like other proceedings, that there aren’t hidden side deals. And importantly, when a judge makes a mistake, that judge’s opinion can generally be appealed to somebody else to try to correct that error.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">None of those things necessarily happen in forced arbitration. Proceedings are in secret. Decisions are not public — oftentimes they’re not even shared. And it’s actually harder to appeal the decision of a private arbitrator than it is to appeal the decision of a judge. And I think all of this goes to the core of the rule of law. If there is a core to the rule of law, it’s that similar cases are treated similarly. And when you have law developing in isolation and in secret, people can’t draw on the decisions of past cases. You really sort of lose the core of what the rule of law is, and decisions become increasingly arbitrary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what about the process itself? Like, can you bring evidence? What is the procedure like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s a great question. The answer — and it’s a very standard lawyer answer — is it depends. There’s a huge variation across arbitration companies, the companies that actually provide arbitration, and the kinds of cases, about what somebody can get. Can you file procedural motions? Can you get discovery? Can you do depositions? In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. And importantly, it’s private companies that provide arbitrators, and those companies have to get business themselves. So oftentimes, they will have to evolve or change their rules so that they are going to be able to get large corporate business. And in fact, you have some extreme examples — for instance, of a gig company working with a smaller, less reputable arbitration provider to literally write the rules of the arbitration process together, and then forcing all of their gig users onto that arbitration platform.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So you’re saying that the company can pick the arbitrator and is sometimes even paying for that particular arbitration company. I mean, you give us an extreme example here with Google as well. But basically, what you’re describing sounds like a really intense conflict of interest. Is that something that has to be disclosed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Brendan Ballou:\u003c/strong> No. Not necessarily. And I’ll say, as a practicing lawyer, I have appeared in front of arbitrators representing clients. And by and large, overwhelmingly, the arbitrators that I’ve appeared in front of are trying to do the right thing. But the natural economic incentives of how arbitration works naturally incline arbitrators towards a certain direction. And you see it in the statistics — overwhelmingly, consumers and employees lose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Brendan Ballou about forced arbitration and how forced arbitration clauses appear in everything from employment contracts to credit card terms, and the impacts they can have on workers and consumers — and also how an arbitration procedure can be carried out. Listeners, you can share your questions at 866-733-6786, on our social channels — Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em> — or by emailing \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Brendan’s new book is When Companies Run the Courts: How Forced Arbitration Became America’s Secret Justice System. More with him and with you after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Both Democrats and Republicans have turned to redistricting to improve their chances in this fall’s midterm elections. But a recent court case striking down a Democrat-leaning redistricting map in Virginia and a Supreme Court decision rolling back the Voting Rights Act, have dimmed hopes for Democrats. All this while Republican state legislatures lock in maps that give their party an edge. We talk about what it all means for the midterm elections and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"contents\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"group relative relative pb-3\" data-is-streaming=\"false\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"font-claude-response relative leading-[1.65rem] [&_pre>div]:bg-bg-000/50 [&_pre>div]:border-0.5 [&_pre>div]:border-border-400 [&_.ignore-pre-bg>div]:bg-transparent [&_.standard-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pl-2 [&_.standard-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,ul,ol,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pr-8 [&_.progressive-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pl-2 [&_.progressive-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,ul,ol,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pr-8\">\n\u003cdiv>\n\u003cdiv class=\"standard-markdown grid-cols-1 grid [&_>_*]:min-w-0 gap-3 standard-markdown\">\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There’s a nice technocratic and persuasive case that democracy should have simple and fair districts for elections. There might be slightly different definitions of fair, but overall, it’s not difficult to imagine ways this could work. But in our current real world, extreme gerrymandering to draw districts that wildly favor Republicans or Democrats has become the norm. A state that, for example, might have sixty percent Republican and forty percent Democratic voters might end up with a house delegation that’s ninety percent Republican. How did it get to this place, and why aren’t the courts stopping it? And what does it mean for the upcoming midterms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here to discuss, we’ve got Erin Covey, who’s editor of the US House of Representatives coverage for the Cook Political Report. Welcome, Erin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Erin Covey:\u003c/strong> Hey. Thanks for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We have Kareem Crayton, vice president of the DC office for the Brennan Center for Justice and expert on redistricting as well. Thank you so much, Kareem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kareem Crayton:\u003c/strong> Delighted to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Nick Corasaniti, who is a reporter with the New York Times covering national politics. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Nick, a lot has happened in the last ten days when it comes to voting rights and redistricting, and I wanted to start off with just a bit of catch-up for listeners. Let’s start with Virginia. What happened there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> So Virginia was one of the main pillars in the Democratic battle plan to kind of fight back in this national redistricting war that you alluded to earlier. And it seemed like it was going to give Democrats four new Democratic-leaning seats in the state, which is kind of critical to them to try and fight this to a draw. But the Virginia Supreme Court struck down that map — not necessarily on the contours of it, but more on the process that Democrats in the state legislature took in order to put this before voters and get the map passed. So that struck down that map, and that was a pretty significant blow to Democrats hoping to, you know, pull even or at least fight this redistricting war to a bit of a draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Because what else is happening across the country right now? Like, how many states are redrawing their maps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’re probably in the double digits by now, and a big reason for that was a decision at the Supreme Court. They ruled in a case called Callais that Louisiana’s congressional map was unconstitutional. And in that ruling, they dealt a pretty significant blow to the Voting Rights Act and specifically section two, which effectively prohibited racial gerrymandering and preventing majority-minority communities from electing a candidate of their choice. And in that ruling, they raised the bar to bringing cases of racial gerrymandering to the courts — that you have to prove intent, which is really, really difficult to find, you know, concrete evidence of intent to discriminate based on race, especially when so much of partisanship just provides cover. You know, they’re allowed to redistrict based on partisan lines. They can just say, “We’re doing this to give more Republicans or more Democrats seats,” and that’s been blessed by the court years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So with that blessing and now this other guardrail removed by the Supreme Court in the Callais case, a host of states across the south have set about redistricting. There’s Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama — all appear on track, or in Tennessee’s case, have already passed new maps. South Carolina yesterday decided not to. There’s a debate in Mississippi, although it doesn’t seem like they will redraw ahead of the midterms. But that case set off yet another scramble in this pretty rare — at least for the past seventy years — battle to redraw congressional maps in the middle of a decade without new information from a census or anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Kareem, do you want to talk a little bit more about that case? I mean, Justice Elena Kagan called it “the latest chapter in the majority’s now completed demolition of the Voting Rights Act.” Talk to us about why that would be what you would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kareem Crayton:\u003c/strong> Sure, and happy to. It’s important, even though this is a rather complicated area with a lot of distinctions. The work of the Voting Rights Act really focuses on what’s called vote dilution — drawing districts to break up existing minority voting power — and race gerrymandering, which, technically, Nick is right, was the basis on which the Supreme Court found that Louisiana had failed to follow the constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">The vote dilution claim was actually one that Black plaintiffs had brought years ago and had fought for a while to get a local district court to say section two requires the state of Louisiana to draw two, not just one, districts where minority voters — here, Black voters — have the opportunity to elect a candidate. That led to the creation of the second district. The legislature, in response, drew a second district that it preferred to craft to help its own incumbents elsewhere. And that creation of a district led to the case Callais, where white voters go to court and say, “Wait a minute. We don’t think that this is consistent with what you, the court, have said about the Fourteenth Amendment — that race should not predominate in drawing districts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So this case, in some ways partly due to the court’s own making, creates a conflict between, as the court sees it, the Fourteenth Amendment and its directive not to make race too important, and section two of the Voting Rights Act, which says you have to think about race and its implications on minority voters so that you’re not discriminating. And so what the court tells us — as I think was rightly described — is we are going to remake section two so that we don’t see the conflict. But in remaking it, it essentially makes it near on impossible to bring a claim. And that’s what Justice Kagan is critiquing the court’s majority about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">That if the point of the Voting Rights Act and the point of the Fourteenth Amendment is to root out race discrimination, you have to take account of race. And it’s a bit of a subterfuge to suggest that we can’t do it because it’s connected to party. Well, it’s always been connected to party. And the fact that it is doesn’t prevent the process of proving a section two case from reaching its end. The point is to say there is evidence that plaintiffs under the old system could bring to show that notwithstanding party, there’s still a division in the choices that Black voters make and the choices that white voters make, such that it matters how districts are drawn. And Justice Kagan looks at this and says, well, on the altar of partisanship, you have essentially sacrificed the attention to dealing with race discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Nick, I wanted to go back to how this wave of redistricting really even got going. We had Texas redraw its maps and then California respond. What was sort of the impetus for this, as you say, quite unusual redraw?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> It all started in Texas. And the way that got going was President Trump and his political team saw an opportunity to try and get states to redraw their maps — especially red states that have more opportunities — in order to create newly safe Republican seats ahead of the midterms, knowing that historically, you know, the first midterm following a presidential election is often tough for the incumbent party in the White House. And so this was a bit of a very rawly, ruthlessly political plan coming from the White House, and Texas Republicans took that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">And when they were successful, it looked like Republican states across the country were going to join this, and that there would be this, you know, more-than-a-dozen seat cushion that Republicans would be able to create by taking up redrawing maps ahead of the midterm elections. Now, just to pause really quickly — this is not normal, especially in modern politics. The redistricting process often just follows every ten years. When the census is completed, states have to readjust their districts for population shifts, known as reapportionment. And that’s when this redistricting normally happens. Otherwise, absent a court case or anything like that, for most of the past fifty or seventy years, states haven’t just decided to randomly redraw their maps ahead of an election to gain a partisan edge. So that was this kind of new, ruthless partisan politics entering the map-drawing process, and Texas was kind of the big bang of it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Erin Covey, talk to me a little bit about, on a high level, how much this has changed the map, as people say, in this world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Erin Covey:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s been quite a bit of whiplash over the past year. We’ve now seen — I believe we’re up to eleven states that are seriously talking about the possibility of redrawing, twelve if you count Mississippi, though I think that is quite unlikely this cycle. And so it really has shifted the structure of the battleground of competitive house races that are going to determine which party controls the house and wins the majority this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">However, it has not changed the national environment. And taking a step back, big picture, we still think — even though Republicans had some major victories over the past couple of weeks — Democrats are probably still favored to take control of the house. And that’s because, really, a best-case scenario for Republicans as a result of all of this redistricting — assuming that one, all of the pending legal cases go their way in these southern states that have redrawn or are in the process of redrawing their maps, but also assuming that Republicans are able to win some of the more favorable districts that they drew that aren’t slam dunks for them — maybe Republicans pad their three-seat majority by another twelve seats or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">But if you think about that, in modern history, the party out of power on average has typically flipped around two dozen seats in the house. And so that very much leaves open a path for Democrats to win control of the house. And from every indication that we’ve seen when we’re looking at the national political environment — whether that is Trump’s approval rating and what we have seen in off-year and special elections — we do still believe the environment really favors Democrats. So, ultimately, maybe we think the median outcome, the most likely outcome, is Republicans maybe effectively are able to net another six or seven seats due to redistricting. But, again, they are clinging to a three-seat majority, and so that is very much not necessarily enough for them to keep control of the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how recent court rulings on redistricting and action by state legislatures are changing the electoral landscape for the midterms and also beyond. We’re joined by Erin Covey, who’s editor at the Cook Political Report covering the US House of Representatives. We’ve got Nick Corasaniti, who’s a reporter with the New York Times covering national politics. And we have Kareem Crayton, who’s vice president for the Brennan Center for Justice’s office there in Washington, DC. Crayton is an expert on redistricting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Of course, we want you to join the conversation. There have been a lot of things going on. If you’ve got questions about how redistricting has been working, give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. Maybe these court rulings have changed how you view the very nature of our elections — we take those questions as well. 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or of course you can find us on social media: Blue Sky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, May 13 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Both Democrats and Republicans have turned to redistricting to improve their chances in this fall’s midterm elections. But a recent court case striking down a Democrat-leaning redistricting map in Virginia and a Supreme Court decision rolling back the Voting Rights Act, have dimmed hopes for Democrats. All this while Republican state legislatures lock in maps that give their party an edge. We talk about what it all means for the midterm elections and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"contents\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"group relative relative pb-3\" data-is-streaming=\"false\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"font-claude-response relative leading-[1.65rem] [&_pre>div]:bg-bg-000/50 [&_pre>div]:border-0.5 [&_pre>div]:border-border-400 [&_.ignore-pre-bg>div]:bg-transparent [&_.standard-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pl-2 [&_.standard-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,ul,ol,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pr-8 [&_.progressive-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pl-2 [&_.progressive-markdown_:is(p,blockquote,ul,ol,h1,h2,h3,h4,h5,h6)]:pr-8\">\n\u003cdiv>\n\u003cdiv class=\"standard-markdown grid-cols-1 grid [&_>_*]:min-w-0 gap-3 standard-markdown\">\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. There’s a nice technocratic and persuasive case that democracy should have simple and fair districts for elections. There might be slightly different definitions of fair, but overall, it’s not difficult to imagine ways this could work. But in our current real world, extreme gerrymandering to draw districts that wildly favor Republicans or Democrats has become the norm. A state that, for example, might have sixty percent Republican and forty percent Democratic voters might end up with a house delegation that’s ninety percent Republican. How did it get to this place, and why aren’t the courts stopping it? And what does it mean for the upcoming midterms?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here to discuss, we’ve got Erin Covey, who’s editor of the US House of Representatives coverage for the Cook Political Report. Welcome, Erin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Erin Covey:\u003c/strong> Hey. Thanks for having me on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We have Kareem Crayton, vice president of the DC office for the Brennan Center for Justice and expert on redistricting as well. Thank you so much, Kareem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kareem Crayton:\u003c/strong> Delighted to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Nick Corasaniti, who is a reporter with the New York Times covering national politics. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, Nick, a lot has happened in the last ten days when it comes to voting rights and redistricting, and I wanted to start off with just a bit of catch-up for listeners. Let’s start with Virginia. What happened there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> So Virginia was one of the main pillars in the Democratic battle plan to kind of fight back in this national redistricting war that you alluded to earlier. And it seemed like it was going to give Democrats four new Democratic-leaning seats in the state, which is kind of critical to them to try and fight this to a draw. But the Virginia Supreme Court struck down that map — not necessarily on the contours of it, but more on the process that Democrats in the state legislature took in order to put this before voters and get the map passed. So that struck down that map, and that was a pretty significant blow to Democrats hoping to, you know, pull even or at least fight this redistricting war to a bit of a draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Because what else is happening across the country right now? Like, how many states are redrawing their maps?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’re probably in the double digits by now, and a big reason for that was a decision at the Supreme Court. They ruled in a case called Callais that Louisiana’s congressional map was unconstitutional. And in that ruling, they dealt a pretty significant blow to the Voting Rights Act and specifically section two, which effectively prohibited racial gerrymandering and preventing majority-minority communities from electing a candidate of their choice. And in that ruling, they raised the bar to bringing cases of racial gerrymandering to the courts — that you have to prove intent, which is really, really difficult to find, you know, concrete evidence of intent to discriminate based on race, especially when so much of partisanship just provides cover. You know, they’re allowed to redistrict based on partisan lines. They can just say, “We’re doing this to give more Republicans or more Democrats seats,” and that’s been blessed by the court years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So with that blessing and now this other guardrail removed by the Supreme Court in the Callais case, a host of states across the south have set about redistricting. There’s Louisiana, Tennessee, Alabama — all appear on track, or in Tennessee’s case, have already passed new maps. South Carolina yesterday decided not to. There’s a debate in Mississippi, although it doesn’t seem like they will redraw ahead of the midterms. But that case set off yet another scramble in this pretty rare — at least for the past seventy years — battle to redraw congressional maps in the middle of a decade without new information from a census or anything like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Kareem, do you want to talk a little bit more about that case? I mean, Justice Elena Kagan called it “the latest chapter in the majority’s now completed demolition of the Voting Rights Act.” Talk to us about why that would be what you would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kareem Crayton:\u003c/strong> Sure, and happy to. It’s important, even though this is a rather complicated area with a lot of distinctions. The work of the Voting Rights Act really focuses on what’s called vote dilution — drawing districts to break up existing minority voting power — and race gerrymandering, which, technically, Nick is right, was the basis on which the Supreme Court found that Louisiana had failed to follow the constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">The vote dilution claim was actually one that Black plaintiffs had brought years ago and had fought for a while to get a local district court to say section two requires the state of Louisiana to draw two, not just one, districts where minority voters — here, Black voters — have the opportunity to elect a candidate. That led to the creation of the second district. The legislature, in response, drew a second district that it preferred to craft to help its own incumbents elsewhere. And that creation of a district led to the case Callais, where white voters go to court and say, “Wait a minute. We don’t think that this is consistent with what you, the court, have said about the Fourteenth Amendment — that race should not predominate in drawing districts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So this case, in some ways partly due to the court’s own making, creates a conflict between, as the court sees it, the Fourteenth Amendment and its directive not to make race too important, and section two of the Voting Rights Act, which says you have to think about race and its implications on minority voters so that you’re not discriminating. And so what the court tells us — as I think was rightly described — is we are going to remake section two so that we don’t see the conflict. But in remaking it, it essentially makes it near on impossible to bring a claim. And that’s what Justice Kagan is critiquing the court’s majority about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">That if the point of the Voting Rights Act and the point of the Fourteenth Amendment is to root out race discrimination, you have to take account of race. And it’s a bit of a subterfuge to suggest that we can’t do it because it’s connected to party. Well, it’s always been connected to party. And the fact that it is doesn’t prevent the process of proving a section two case from reaching its end. The point is to say there is evidence that plaintiffs under the old system could bring to show that notwithstanding party, there’s still a division in the choices that Black voters make and the choices that white voters make, such that it matters how districts are drawn. And Justice Kagan looks at this and says, well, on the altar of partisanship, you have essentially sacrificed the attention to dealing with race discrimination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You know, Nick, I wanted to go back to how this wave of redistricting really even got going. We had Texas redraw its maps and then California respond. What was sort of the impetus for this, as you say, quite unusual redraw?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Nick Corasaniti:\u003c/strong> It all started in Texas. And the way that got going was President Trump and his political team saw an opportunity to try and get states to redraw their maps — especially red states that have more opportunities — in order to create newly safe Republican seats ahead of the midterms, knowing that historically, you know, the first midterm following a presidential election is often tough for the incumbent party in the White House. And so this was a bit of a very rawly, ruthlessly political plan coming from the White House, and Texas Republicans took that up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">And when they were successful, it looked like Republican states across the country were going to join this, and that there would be this, you know, more-than-a-dozen seat cushion that Republicans would be able to create by taking up redrawing maps ahead of the midterm elections. Now, just to pause really quickly — this is not normal, especially in modern politics. The redistricting process often just follows every ten years. When the census is completed, states have to readjust their districts for population shifts, known as reapportionment. And that’s when this redistricting normally happens. Otherwise, absent a court case or anything like that, for most of the past fifty or seventy years, states haven’t just decided to randomly redraw their maps ahead of an election to gain a partisan edge. So that was this kind of new, ruthless partisan politics entering the map-drawing process, and Texas was kind of the big bang of it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Erin Covey, talk to me a little bit about, on a high level, how much this has changed the map, as people say, in this world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Erin Covey:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it’s been quite a bit of whiplash over the past year. We’ve now seen — I believe we’re up to eleven states that are seriously talking about the possibility of redrawing, twelve if you count Mississippi, though I think that is quite unlikely this cycle. And so it really has shifted the structure of the battleground of competitive house races that are going to determine which party controls the house and wins the majority this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">However, it has not changed the national environment. And taking a step back, big picture, we still think — even though Republicans had some major victories over the past couple of weeks — Democrats are probably still favored to take control of the house. And that’s because, really, a best-case scenario for Republicans as a result of all of this redistricting — assuming that one, all of the pending legal cases go their way in these southern states that have redrawn or are in the process of redrawing their maps, but also assuming that Republicans are able to win some of the more favorable districts that they drew that aren’t slam dunks for them — maybe Republicans pad their three-seat majority by another twelve seats or so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">But if you think about that, in modern history, the party out of power on average has typically flipped around two dozen seats in the house. And so that very much leaves open a path for Democrats to win control of the house. And from every indication that we’ve seen when we’re looking at the national political environment — whether that is Trump’s approval rating and what we have seen in off-year and special elections — we do still believe the environment really favors Democrats. So, ultimately, maybe we think the median outcome, the most likely outcome, is Republicans maybe effectively are able to net another six or seven seats due to redistricting. But, again, they are clinging to a three-seat majority, and so that is very much not necessarily enough for them to keep control of the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how recent court rulings on redistricting and action by state legislatures are changing the electoral landscape for the midterms and also beyond. We’re joined by Erin Covey, who’s editor at the Cook Political Report covering the US House of Representatives. We’ve got Nick Corasaniti, who’s a reporter with the New York Times covering national politics. And we have Kareem Crayton, who’s vice president for the Brennan Center for Justice’s office there in Washington, DC. Crayton is an expert on redistricting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Of course, we want you to join the conversation. There have been a lot of things going on. If you’ve got questions about how redistricting has been working, give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. Maybe these court rulings have changed how you view the very nature of our elections — we take those questions as well. 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or of course you can find us on social media: Blue Sky, Instagram, Discord, or KQED \u003cem>Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, May 12 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A 2025 study found political violence is shifting from a primarily right-wing phenomenon to one now more common on the left (fueled partly by a significant decrease in right-wing attacks during President Trump’s second term). And it’s increasingly accepted across the political spectrum, with about a fifth of Americans saying they’d support violence to achieve political goals. The Atlantic’s Adrienne LaFrance calls this dangerous attitude “blood populism,” and we’ll talk to her about why she believes people with these opinions should be seen not as partisans but extremists. Plus, a violence prevention researcher explains why political violence is a public health issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"282\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. After a California man was charged last week with attempting to kill the president, marking the third assassination attempt against Trump, many have been left wondering where this apparent cycle of political violence we’re in will lead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"284\" data-end=\"505\">Last year, gunmen killed Charlie Kirk and Minnesota lawmaker Melissa Hortman. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro’s home was firebombed. And a couple of years before that, Nancy Pelosi’s husband was attacked in their home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"507\" data-end=\"774\">This hour, we’ve invited Garen Wintemute and Adrienne LaFrance to help ground us in data and context for what we’re seeing. Garen has been researching and surveying Americans on their attitudes toward political violence at UC Davis for years. Garen, welcome to Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"776\" data-end=\"838\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"776\" data-end=\"810\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Mina, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"840\" data-end=\"1003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"840\" data-end=\"853\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The Atlantic’s executive editor, Adrienne LaFrance, has been reporting on political violence for two decades. Thanks for coming on as well, Adrienne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1005\" data-end=\"1038\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1005\" data-end=\"1027\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1053\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Adrienne, I’ll start with you. As someone who has covered political violence for so long, how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1634\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1193\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Oh, that’s a great question. I mean, I would really actually love to hear how the actual researcher would answer this question rather than a journalist. I would say I sort of take the easy way out in my definition and keep it simple. I tend to define it as someone taking action in order to prevent or provoke political change. But there are many ways to define it, and that’s one of the things that makes it so hard to track or understand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1636\" data-end=\"1794\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1636\" data-end=\"1649\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. But even under that sort of simpler definition that you use, you find that the vast majority of Americans fully reject political violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1796\" data-end=\"2108\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1796\" data-end=\"1818\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> In everything I’ve read, and from everyone I’ve interviewed who studies this closely, that has always been one of the more reassuring constants, that most people really do reject it. Unfortunately for us, it takes only one person to wreak tremendous havoc. So it’s both reassuring and not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2110\" data-end=\"2258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2110\" data-end=\"2123\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, Garen, what do the statistics show with regard to a broad rejection of political violence? And do you define it similarly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2294\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Let me switch the order. I do define it similarly. We restrict political violence to the use of force in our surveys. We define it in the surveys as physical force sufficient enough to injure somebody or harm them, and we say that the force is being used to advance a political objective. Then we supply a bunch of political objectives and ask our participants how they respond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2675\" data-end=\"2818\">There are lots of definitions. All of them tend to be general, and it’s understood that this is a concept that’s really kind of hard to corral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2820\" data-end=\"3047\">Mina, you’ve led with the most important thing, I think, that the single most important finding from everybody’s research on political violence is that the vast majority of the population rejects it. That’s true in our surveys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3049\" data-end=\"3347\">And I’ll add briefly, and we might get further into this, that of the minority who endorse political violence in principle, the vast majority say they wouldn’t want to do it themselves. And of the small minority who say, yes, I’m willing to do it, more than half say, but you can talk me out of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3349\" data-end=\"3570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3349\" data-end=\"3362\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> At the same time, though, Garen, we’re hearing about an uptick in political violence on the left, that last year violent plots on the left outnumbered those on the right. How worried should we be about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3572\" data-end=\"3793\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3572\" data-end=\"3606\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> We should be concerned about political violence. But the specific finding that you’ve mentioned has given rise to a lot of unjustified concern about a switch in the polarity of violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3795\" data-end=\"4027\">We’ve all looked at a graph, but we’re on radio, so give me just a second to describe what’s on that graph. Over time, right-wing violence has vastly outnumbered left-wing violence, going back decades now, about a decade and a half.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4029\" data-end=\"4234\">Last year, after the twenty twenty-four elections, violence on the right plummeted. As Enrique Tarrio, head of the Proud Boys, put it, “Honestly, what have we got to complain about?” That’s a direct quote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4236\" data-end=\"4655\">Violence on the left was always infrequent, going up a little, down a little, up a little, down a little, around an infrequent baseline with no trend. And it just so happened last year that that plummeting on the right coincided with an uptick on the left. And it is true that violence on the left last year was more frequent than violence on the right, but that was entirely due to a decrease in violence on the right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4657\" data-end=\"4926\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4657\" data-end=\"4670\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what I’m hearing then from both of you is that it’s broadly rejected by the American people. And then, as Garen, you were saying, the statistical shift in violence by left-wing actors is probably being overblown and is more complicated than it appears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4928\" data-end=\"5200\">So, Adrienne, why are we seeing what we’re seeing, and why is political violence such an important force to keep in check? I mean, you noted it a little bit when you said one person can really have a very big impact. Can you talk a little bit about what concerns you most?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5202\" data-end=\"5409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5202\" data-end=\"5224\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So, I mean, I agree with everything Garen has said. And I think it’s really important to ground all of this in the fact that the state has a monopoly on violence generally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5411\" data-end=\"5900\">So in any period where one party is in power over the other, it’s not necessarily surprising to see that people who identify strongly with their political party or their political views, in a period where they’re feeling disempowered, might be more prone, again, among that minority of people who would turn to violence in the first place, to see violence as a path toward political resolution in a way they wouldn’t if they felt their worldview or party was represented by those in power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5902\" data-end=\"6143\">And then in terms of what I worry about, I mean, I think when you sort of look around at the conditions we see in our society, knowing the conditions that make a society vulnerable to political violence, there is a lot to be concerned about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6145\" data-end=\"6612\">I mean, you have highly visible wealth disparity, declining trust in civic institutions, this sort of widespread perceived sense of victimhood, intense partisan estrangement, rapid demographic change, flourishing conspiracy theories. I mean, I could go on and on. And then, of course, layer on top of that what our information ecosystem looks like and the way that we communicate with one another on social media. It’s a potentially explosive situation that we’re in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6614\" data-end=\"6947\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6614\" data-end=\"6627\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. One of the things I was struck by, you wrote a piece called \u003cem data-start=\"6694\" data-end=\"6723\">Rise of the Blood Populists\u003c/em>. You wrote, “Most Americans fully reject political violence. It’s time to differentiate between those who tolerate it and everyone else.” Are you worried that political violence is becoming an ideology, or could become one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6949\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6949\" data-end=\"6971\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> In some ways, yes. I want to be as nuanced as possible here, and I think it’s really important that people like Garen and others who deeply research and understand this and look at the data underlying these trends are slicing up the data in whatever possible way they can so that we do understand why right-wing violence or left-wing violence might trend up or down at any given moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7645\">On the other hand, I think for most of us who are not researchers focused on the subject matter, I wish that people would just say political violence is wrong, full stop. And it doesn’t matter if the political violence is happening on whatever a person’s perceived ideological side is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7647\" data-end=\"7866\">So, yeah. I mean, I personally do see that every individual has a threshold for violence. And so you could, across the whole population, try to understand what people’s potential to commit acts of political violence is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7868\" data-end=\"8175\">But the simplest way for me to think about it, and it’s probably overly simple in some ways, is just to say: No. This is not the society we want to live in. Political violence is wrong, full stop. And those who believe that and agree with it should coalesce around trying to figure out what the solution is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8177\" data-end=\"8278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8177\" data-end=\"8190\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so how did you come up with “blood populism” as a way to coin that loose coalition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8280\" data-end=\"8425\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8280\" data-end=\"8302\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Right. So, I mean, this is where you need someone who’s an expert in populism to come in and tell me that I’ve misused it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8814\">Look, on one level, you need a headline and you try to get people’s attention. On the other hand, I do think that, in the same way that populist forces are changing society in the various ways that they are now, you could think of this turn toward political violence, or these recent episodes and potentially worsening cycle of political violence, as part of a broader populist movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8816\" data-end=\"9180\">And the reason I framed it that way was, again, I really wish that most people, like the layperson, would get beyond, “Well, it’s your side.” “No, it’s your side.” And just think: No. This is not what we want for our country. Let’s look beyond partisan differences and agree on the thing we hopefully can agree on, which is political violence is hurting all of us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9182\" data-end=\"9429\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9182\" data-end=\"9195\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, what questions or reactions do you have to the political violence we’re seeing now? What do you think is driving it? And how concerned are you that it will increase or worsen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9431\" data-end=\"9669\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9445\" data-end=\"9459\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at eight six six seven three three six seven eight six. Again, that’s eight six six seven three three six seven eight six.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9671\" data-end=\"9947\">Garen, I want to ask you: A lot of people point out that there have been lots of periods of violence in this country. Often they point to the sixties as a particularly violent time, the seventies as well, and that the country has seen worse than we’re seeing now and survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9949\" data-end=\"10069\">But is there something about this moment that feels different with regard to the character of the violence we’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10071\" data-end=\"10305\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10071\" data-end=\"10105\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Yes. I think so. I grew up in the sixties and seventies and can tell you exactly where I was when I learned that John Kennedy was shot, that Robert Kennedy was shot, that Martin Luther King was shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10307\" data-end=\"10326\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10307\" data-end=\"10320\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10328\" data-end=\"10469\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10328\" data-end=\"10362\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> We have seen worse. I think what’s different this time is the role that the federal government is playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10471\" data-end=\"10811\">Our definition of physical force, and others’ definitions as well, extend to the kind of violence that we’ve seen with immigration enforcement. And if you include those as acts of political violence, it is simply true, based on the numbers today, that the leading source of political violence in the United States is the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10813\" data-end=\"11127\">We are seeing violence as an instrument of federal policy enforcement. And, Mina, as you know, I’ve been writing about this since January. I think there is real risk of institutionalizing violence as a means of suppressing opposition in the United States. That is not something that we’ve seen in a very long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11129\" data-end=\"11431\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11129\" data-end=\"11142\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at UC Davis, who also practices and teaches emergency medicine at the UC Davis School of Medicine. And we’re talking with Adrienne LaFrance, executive editor at \u003cspan class=\"hover:entity-accent entity-underline inline cursor-pointer align-baseline\">\u003cspan class=\"whitespace-normal\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/span>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11433\" data-end=\"11618\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’re talking about what’s driving recent incidents and shifts in attitudes toward political violence. We’ll have more with them, and with you, after the break, listeners. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, May 12 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A 2025 study found political violence is shifting from a primarily right-wing phenomenon to one now more common on the left (fueled partly by a significant decrease in right-wing attacks during President Trump’s second term). And it’s increasingly accepted across the political spectrum, with about a fifth of Americans saying they’d support violence to achieve political goals. The Atlantic’s Adrienne LaFrance calls this dangerous attitude “blood populism,” and we’ll talk to her about why she believes people with these opinions should be seen not as partisans but extremists. Plus, a violence prevention researcher explains why political violence is a public health issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"282\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. After a California man was charged last week with attempting to kill the president, marking the third assassination attempt against Trump, many have been left wondering where this apparent cycle of political violence we’re in will lead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"284\" data-end=\"505\">Last year, gunmen killed Charlie Kirk and Minnesota lawmaker Melissa Hortman. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro’s home was firebombed. And a couple of years before that, Nancy Pelosi’s husband was attacked in their home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"507\" data-end=\"774\">This hour, we’ve invited Garen Wintemute and Adrienne LaFrance to help ground us in data and context for what we’re seeing. Garen has been researching and surveying Americans on their attitudes toward political violence at UC Davis for years. Garen, welcome to Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"776\" data-end=\"838\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"776\" data-end=\"810\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Mina, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"840\" data-end=\"1003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"840\" data-end=\"853\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The Atlantic’s executive editor, Adrienne LaFrance, has been reporting on political violence for two decades. Thanks for coming on as well, Adrienne.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1005\" data-end=\"1038\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1005\" data-end=\"1027\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1053\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Adrienne, I’ll start with you. As someone who has covered political violence for so long, how do you define it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1634\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1193\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Oh, that’s a great question. I mean, I would really actually love to hear how the actual researcher would answer this question rather than a journalist. I would say I sort of take the easy way out in my definition and keep it simple. I tend to define it as someone taking action in order to prevent or provoke political change. But there are many ways to define it, and that’s one of the things that makes it so hard to track or understand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1636\" data-end=\"1794\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1636\" data-end=\"1649\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. But even under that sort of simpler definition that you use, you find that the vast majority of Americans fully reject political violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1796\" data-end=\"2108\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1796\" data-end=\"1818\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> In everything I’ve read, and from everyone I’ve interviewed who studies this closely, that has always been one of the more reassuring constants, that most people really do reject it. Unfortunately for us, it takes only one person to wreak tremendous havoc. So it’s both reassuring and not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2110\" data-end=\"2258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2110\" data-end=\"2123\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, Garen, what do the statistics show with regard to a broad rejection of political violence? And do you define it similarly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2673\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2294\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Let me switch the order. I do define it similarly. We restrict political violence to the use of force in our surveys. We define it in the surveys as physical force sufficient enough to injure somebody or harm them, and we say that the force is being used to advance a political objective. Then we supply a bunch of political objectives and ask our participants how they respond.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2675\" data-end=\"2818\">There are lots of definitions. All of them tend to be general, and it’s understood that this is a concept that’s really kind of hard to corral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2820\" data-end=\"3047\">Mina, you’ve led with the most important thing, I think, that the single most important finding from everybody’s research on political violence is that the vast majority of the population rejects it. That’s true in our surveys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3049\" data-end=\"3347\">And I’ll add briefly, and we might get further into this, that of the minority who endorse political violence in principle, the vast majority say they wouldn’t want to do it themselves. And of the small minority who say, yes, I’m willing to do it, more than half say, but you can talk me out of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3349\" data-end=\"3570\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3349\" data-end=\"3362\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> At the same time, though, Garen, we’re hearing about an uptick in political violence on the left, that last year violent plots on the left outnumbered those on the right. How worried should we be about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3572\" data-end=\"3793\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3572\" data-end=\"3606\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> We should be concerned about political violence. But the specific finding that you’ve mentioned has given rise to a lot of unjustified concern about a switch in the polarity of violence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3795\" data-end=\"4027\">We’ve all looked at a graph, but we’re on radio, so give me just a second to describe what’s on that graph. Over time, right-wing violence has vastly outnumbered left-wing violence, going back decades now, about a decade and a half.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4029\" data-end=\"4234\">Last year, after the twenty twenty-four elections, violence on the right plummeted. As Enrique Tarrio, head of the Proud Boys, put it, “Honestly, what have we got to complain about?” That’s a direct quote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4236\" data-end=\"4655\">Violence on the left was always infrequent, going up a little, down a little, up a little, down a little, around an infrequent baseline with no trend. And it just so happened last year that that plummeting on the right coincided with an uptick on the left. And it is true that violence on the left last year was more frequent than violence on the right, but that was entirely due to a decrease in violence on the right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4657\" data-end=\"4926\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4657\" data-end=\"4670\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So what I’m hearing then from both of you is that it’s broadly rejected by the American people. And then, as Garen, you were saying, the statistical shift in violence by left-wing actors is probably being overblown and is more complicated than it appears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4928\" data-end=\"5200\">So, Adrienne, why are we seeing what we’re seeing, and why is political violence such an important force to keep in check? I mean, you noted it a little bit when you said one person can really have a very big impact. Can you talk a little bit about what concerns you most?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5202\" data-end=\"5409\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5202\" data-end=\"5224\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. So, I mean, I agree with everything Garen has said. And I think it’s really important to ground all of this in the fact that the state has a monopoly on violence generally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5411\" data-end=\"5900\">So in any period where one party is in power over the other, it’s not necessarily surprising to see that people who identify strongly with their political party or their political views, in a period where they’re feeling disempowered, might be more prone, again, among that minority of people who would turn to violence in the first place, to see violence as a path toward political resolution in a way they wouldn’t if they felt their worldview or party was represented by those in power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5902\" data-end=\"6143\">And then in terms of what I worry about, I mean, I think when you sort of look around at the conditions we see in our society, knowing the conditions that make a society vulnerable to political violence, there is a lot to be concerned about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6145\" data-end=\"6612\">I mean, you have highly visible wealth disparity, declining trust in civic institutions, this sort of widespread perceived sense of victimhood, intense partisan estrangement, rapid demographic change, flourishing conspiracy theories. I mean, I could go on and on. And then, of course, layer on top of that what our information ecosystem looks like and the way that we communicate with one another on social media. It’s a potentially explosive situation that we’re in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6614\" data-end=\"6947\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6614\" data-end=\"6627\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. One of the things I was struck by, you wrote a piece called \u003cem data-start=\"6694\" data-end=\"6723\">Rise of the Blood Populists\u003c/em>. You wrote, “Most Americans fully reject political violence. It’s time to differentiate between those who tolerate it and everyone else.” Are you worried that political violence is becoming an ideology, or could become one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6949\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6949\" data-end=\"6971\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> In some ways, yes. I want to be as nuanced as possible here, and I think it’s really important that people like Garen and others who deeply research and understand this and look at the data underlying these trends are slicing up the data in whatever possible way they can so that we do understand why right-wing violence or left-wing violence might trend up or down at any given moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7645\">On the other hand, I think for most of us who are not researchers focused on the subject matter, I wish that people would just say political violence is wrong, full stop. And it doesn’t matter if the political violence is happening on whatever a person’s perceived ideological side is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7647\" data-end=\"7866\">So, yeah. I mean, I personally do see that every individual has a threshold for violence. And so you could, across the whole population, try to understand what people’s potential to commit acts of political violence is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7868\" data-end=\"8175\">But the simplest way for me to think about it, and it’s probably overly simple in some ways, is just to say: No. This is not the society we want to live in. Political violence is wrong, full stop. And those who believe that and agree with it should coalesce around trying to figure out what the solution is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8177\" data-end=\"8278\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8177\" data-end=\"8190\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so how did you come up with “blood populism” as a way to coin that loose coalition?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8280\" data-end=\"8425\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8280\" data-end=\"8302\">Adrienne LaFrance:\u003c/strong> Right. So, I mean, this is where you need someone who’s an expert in populism to come in and tell me that I’ve misused it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8814\">Look, on one level, you need a headline and you try to get people’s attention. On the other hand, I do think that, in the same way that populist forces are changing society in the various ways that they are now, you could think of this turn toward political violence, or these recent episodes and potentially worsening cycle of political violence, as part of a broader populist movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8816\" data-end=\"9180\">And the reason I framed it that way was, again, I really wish that most people, like the layperson, would get beyond, “Well, it’s your side.” “No, it’s your side.” And just think: No. This is not what we want for our country. Let’s look beyond partisan differences and agree on the thing we hopefully can agree on, which is political violence is hurting all of us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9182\" data-end=\"9429\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9182\" data-end=\"9195\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. Listeners, what questions or reactions do you have to the political violence we’re seeing now? What do you think is driving it? And how concerned are you that it will increase or worsen?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9431\" data-end=\"9669\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9445\" data-end=\"9459\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Or you can call us at eight six six seven three three six seven eight six. Again, that’s eight six six seven three three six seven eight six.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9671\" data-end=\"9947\">Garen, I want to ask you: A lot of people point out that there have been lots of periods of violence in this country. Often they point to the sixties as a particularly violent time, the seventies as well, and that the country has seen worse than we’re seeing now and survived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9949\" data-end=\"10069\">But is there something about this moment that feels different with regard to the character of the violence we’re seeing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10071\" data-end=\"10305\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10071\" data-end=\"10105\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> Yes. I think so. I grew up in the sixties and seventies and can tell you exactly where I was when I learned that John Kennedy was shot, that Robert Kennedy was shot, that Martin Luther King was shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10307\" data-end=\"10326\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10307\" data-end=\"10320\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10328\" data-end=\"10469\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10328\" data-end=\"10362\">Garen Wintemute, M.D., M.P.H.:\u003c/strong> We have seen worse. I think what’s different this time is the role that the federal government is playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10471\" data-end=\"10811\">Our definition of physical force, and others’ definitions as well, extend to the kind of violence that we’ve seen with immigration enforcement. And if you include those as acts of political violence, it is simply true, based on the numbers today, that the leading source of political violence in the United States is the federal government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10813\" data-end=\"11127\">We are seeing violence as an instrument of federal policy enforcement. And, Mina, as you know, I’ve been writing about this since January. I think there is real risk of institutionalizing violence as a means of suppressing opposition in the United States. That is not something that we’ve seen in a very long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11129\" data-end=\"11431\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11129\" data-end=\"11142\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at UC Davis, who also practices and teaches emergency medicine at the UC Davis School of Medicine. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"bio": "\"Water Mirror Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America\" - Chang is also the author of \"We Gon' Be Alright: Notes on Race and Resegregation,\" \"Who We Be: The Colorization of America\" and \"Can't Stop Won't Stop: A History of the Hip-Hop Generation\""
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"order": 9
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "American Public Media"
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
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"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"order": 11
},
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"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
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},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
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"order": 14
},
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"planet-money": {
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
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},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5Nzk2MzI2MTEx",
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},
"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
"meta": {
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"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
"subscribe": {
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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