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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California’s jam-packed governor’s primary may lead to a historic political shakeup this fall. Polls show the two leading Republicans, Riverside county sheriff Chad Bianco and political commentator Steve Hilton, could consolidate enough support to lock Democrats out of the November general election. That leaves the crowded field of Democrats — which includes Rep. Eric Swalwell, former congresswoman Katie Porter and billionaire businessman Tom Steyer — scrambling to secure one of the top spots. We’ll break down the major players in this packed race and hear what issues matter most to Californians as they prepare to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re less than a month until early voting begins in the June 2nd primary, when we’ll determine the final two contenders for California’s next governor. And the field remains very crowded. At least ten major candidates are still in the race: eight Democrats and two Republicans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been talk that, with so many Democrats potentially splitting the vote, California’s top-two primary system could send two Republican candidates to the November election. We’ll look at the likelihood of that scenario, especially now that the president has endorsed one of the top Republican candidates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, do you know who you’ll be voting for? And if not, tell us why not. 866-733-6786 is the number to call. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With me is Marisa Lagos, correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk and co-host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> radio show and podcast. Marisa, welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morning, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guy Marzorati is also with us, a correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Seema Mehta is with us, a staff writer at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> covering government and politics. Seema, really glad to have you on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let me just start by asking you, Marisa. There are ten major candidates still in the running. As I said, two Republicans, eight Democrats. How unusual is this number of candidates at this stage in a governor’s race?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, for the last two and a half decades, incredibly unusual. I guess going back to the recall was the last time we had sort of this big of a hot mess on the ballot, if you might call it that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in that case, there were fewer, I would say, serious candidates, especially on the Democratic side. But let’s be clear: the last few governor elections have been kind of more coronations, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had Gavin Newsom sort of beating out Antonio Villaraigosa in 2018 and facing off against Republican John Cox. So that was a pretty easy November election for him. Jerry Brown essentially cleared the field eight years before that. And, of course, Arnold Schwarzenegger sort of stormed into office and stayed there until he was termed out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s incredibly unusual not only to have this many candidates, but just to have a wide-open race in general.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. So the two leading Republicans, Guy, are pulling ahead of the eight Democrats that I mentioned?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, and that’s entirely a function of there just being a lot more Democratic candidates splitting up the vote. It’s not as if suddenly the idea of a Republican governor is more popular for the broader electorate. It’s that you have really just two notable Republicans: Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, and Steve Hilton, the Fox News Republican commentator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have a lot more Democratic candidates—eight Democrats that are well known to some extent, who have served in a variety of roles in government—that are really, at this point, splitting up the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what we’ve seen in the last maybe four to six weeks, maybe two months, is really an emergence of a top five of candidates, where you have the two Republicans, and then three Democrats: Katie Porter, Eric Swalwell, and Tom Steyer, who have gained some separation from the other Democrats in the field.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, even among those three Democrats, it’s really close in any public poll you’re looking at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Roughly around ten percent, I’ve seen, and then Steve Hilton and Chad Bianco sort of in the teens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, which honestly I think could change after yesterday’s endorsement from the president. I think that’s the biggest endorsement yet in this race and a really clear signal, I think, for a lot of Republicans to kind of rally around Steve Hilton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And ironically, all of this kind of consternation among Democrats about having two Republicans in the general election—they tried calling on candidates to drop out, they tried public shaming, rolling out their own polls—ultimately what will probably make the biggest difference is Trump coming in and saying, “I’m endorsing Hilton,” and creating separation between him and Bianco, allowing a Democrat to get to the general election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Seema, you wrote about this, and I’m wondering what you think about the effect that Trump’s endorsement will have, and how much of an endorsement Hilton will benefit from if he does end up in the November election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In talking to strategists in both parties, I think there’s a broad belief that this could make sure that Hilton wins one of the top two spots in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, if only one Republican wins a top spot, given California’s overwhelmingly Democratic electorate, that basically means that the race is done after June. The Democrat takes the other spot, as we saw with Newsom and John Cox, and in other races like Jerry Brown and Neel Kashkari in 2014.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think the president’s endorsement comes days before the state Republican Party meets in San Diego this weekend for their endorsement conference and convention. I think at one point there was doubt that either Hilton or Bianco would be able to get the number of votes needed to get that endorsement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I think people believe that Hilton actually has a chance of getting it because the people who show up at the convention—this is the president’s base. They listen to him. So it could really make a big difference this weekend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And, Marisa, it wasn’t like the two Republican candidates, who would essentially need to split the Republican vote evenly, were helping each other do that before this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It doesn’t sound like they were trying to sort of make it so that they could lock out Democrats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I have no indication they’ve actually been working together. I think that was sort of a fever dream of Republicans that they could do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that you do have so many low-polling Democratic candidates certainly made it a possibility, but a very low one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the bigger question at this point is who can kind of use these final months ahead of the June primary on the Democratic side to really make their case and engage an electorate that seems very distracted in this moment with what’s happening nationally, and just sort of not that excited about this race.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think that’s crazy either. Guy and Seema and I live and breathe this stuff 365, 24/7, so you all don’t have to. And why would you be that invested yet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a lot of friends who do follow the news relatively carefully who are still like, “Wait, who’s running?” So I think as people’s ballots drop and the ads ramp up, as they’re starting to, we will see some more engagement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, this listener writes: “This problem reminds me of RBG’s decision to hang on at the Supreme Court. Some of the Democratic candidates with no chance of winning need to show some political savvy and character and drop out.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guy, you were mentioning that people have tried shaming and other means for pushing or asking Democratic candidates to start leaving the race when this was more of a fear with regard to Democrats being locked out of the November election. Why didn’t any of that work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it could speak in part to the weakness of the party infrastructure, and also I think candidates feeling somewhat emboldened by those calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the days right after Rusty Hicks, the Democratic Party chair, came out and said these lower-polling candidates should drop out, a lot of those candidates that I talked to said, “Well, since you said that, now I’m staying in.” They didn’t want to look like a chump and just get out of the race because of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not to say that still isn’t going to come. I talked to Betty Yee, who’s been polling in kind of low single digits. She stayed in, she filed to run, she said it was a dream of hers to be on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she said that come mid-April, she’s going to reevaluate her chances in this campaign and decide whether to drop out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now at this point, you’re not going to get off the ballot. Your name is still going to be on the ballot. But I think you could easily see in the next few weeks some of these candidates decide to hang it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to Marisa’s point, when ballots drop in early May, I think that’s when you’re really going to see the ad barrage—when you’re really going to see all these candidates who’ve been saving up a lot of money really try to get on the airwaves and match, to some extent, what we’ve seen from someone like Tom Steyer, who’s been on TV since the ball dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s when you might see some more natural separation between these campaigns.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And those candidates polling roughly around three percent are Javier Becerra, Antonio Villaraigosa, Betty Yee, as you mentioned, Matt Mahan, and Tony Thurmond potentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you also note, Guy, vote-by-mail ballots are going out no later than May 4. But I guess I’m curious, Seema, if you feel like there is a lot of room for the race to change between now and then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think each of the leading Democrats has potential weaknesses, and I think that’s what the rest of the field is sort of counting on to see where we are a couple weeks from now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, when Rusty made his request for people to sort of consider their viability—and this also ties into the USC debate that was canceled at the last minute because of questions around the methodology used to select the candidates who would participate—all of the candidates of color are polling low.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was viewed in some quarters as just inappropriate because basically the state Democratic Party and other leaders were asking all the candidates of color to drop out. So that’s also a factor, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I also wanted to put the same question to you, Marisa, about room for this race to change in any particularly significant way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it has to, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think someone really is going to jump ahead in the next few weeks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s likely that we go into primary week with it still being a contest among some of these Democrats, but I do think that we will see at least some consolidation the closer we get to June 2, and that their numbers could at least jump up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the point of the campaign where opposition research starts being dumped. I think we’re going to see—we’re already seeing someone like Eric Swalwell go up on TV for the first time. Steyer’s been there for a while. With Porter, I think we’re sort of waiting to see how she handles that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that TV is the whole game anymore, and I think all these candidates have been really active on social media, which is obviously a really important place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think there will be some changes. And again, as voters check in, you’ll see—there’s still a pretty good chunk in a lot of these polls that are undecided. And then also, you could see a shift from some of these lower-polling candidates toward other ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. About a quarter of voters are undecided.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listener Sophie writes: “Californians have been put in a terrible position. I’m very frustrated with the Democratic Party with there being too many candidates and no clear front-runner. I’m taking the approach of looking at the polls and going with who is leading. Right now, that is Eric Swalwell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I would love for Javier Becerra to be governor and would vote for him if he were higher in the polls. He’s the most qualified by far, but sadly, we are placed in a position where we have to be strategic at this point to make sure we don’t have a Republican lockout.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right after the break, we’re going to dig into who the leading candidates are, their backgrounds, their promises, and their baggage as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But listeners, do tell us if there is a candidate that you would like to see be in the top two. And if not, why not? What has made it difficult for you to make that choice? What are the most important issues that you want the next governor to address?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, email address: forum@kqed.org. Phone number: 866-733-6786. And you can find us on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California’s jam-packed governor’s primary may lead to a historic political shakeup this fall. Polls show the two leading Republicans, Riverside county sheriff Chad Bianco and political commentator Steve Hilton, could consolidate enough support to lock Democrats out of the November general election. That leaves the crowded field of Democrats — which includes Rep. Eric Swalwell, former congresswoman Katie Porter and billionaire businessman Tom Steyer — scrambling to secure one of the top spots. We’ll break down the major players in this packed race and hear what issues matter most to Californians as they prepare to vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. We’re less than a month until early voting begins in the June 2nd primary, when we’ll determine the final two contenders for California’s next governor. And the field remains very crowded. At least ten major candidates are still in the race: eight Democrats and two Republicans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been talk that, with so many Democrats potentially splitting the vote, California’s top-two primary system could send two Republican candidates to the November election. We’ll look at the likelihood of that scenario, especially now that the president has endorsed one of the top Republican candidates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, do you know who you’ll be voting for? And if not, tell us why not. 866-733-6786 is the number to call. You can email forum@kqed.org, or you can find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With me is Marisa Lagos, correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk and co-host of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Political Breakdown\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> radio show and podcast. Marisa, welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Morning, Mina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Guy Marzorati is also with us, a correspondent on KQED’s government and politics desk as well. Hi, Guy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Seema Mehta is with us, a staff writer at the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">LA Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> covering government and politics. Seema, really glad to have you on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let me just start by asking you, Marisa. There are ten major candidates still in the running. As I said, two Republicans, eight Democrats. How unusual is this number of candidates at this stage in a governor’s race?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, for the last two and a half decades, incredibly unusual. I guess going back to the recall was the last time we had sort of this big of a hot mess on the ballot, if you might call it that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, in that case, there were fewer, I would say, serious candidates, especially on the Democratic side. But let’s be clear: the last few governor elections have been kind of more coronations, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We had Gavin Newsom sort of beating out Antonio Villaraigosa in 2018 and facing off against Republican John Cox. So that was a pretty easy November election for him. Jerry Brown essentially cleared the field eight years before that. And, of course, Arnold Schwarzenegger sort of stormed into office and stayed there until he was termed out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s incredibly unusual not only to have this many candidates, but just to have a wide-open race in general.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. So the two leading Republicans, Guy, are pulling ahead of the eight Democrats that I mentioned?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, and that’s entirely a function of there just being a lot more Democratic candidates splitting up the vote. It’s not as if suddenly the idea of a Republican governor is more popular for the broader electorate. It’s that you have really just two notable Republicans: Chad Bianco, the sheriff in Riverside County, and Steve Hilton, the Fox News Republican commentator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then you have a lot more Democratic candidates—eight Democrats that are well known to some extent, who have served in a variety of roles in government—that are really, at this point, splitting up the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think what we’ve seen in the last maybe four to six weeks, maybe two months, is really an emergence of a top five of candidates, where you have the two Republicans, and then three Democrats: Katie Porter, Eric Swalwell, and Tom Steyer, who have gained some separation from the other Democrats in the field.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, even among those three Democrats, it’s really close in any public poll you’re looking at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Roughly around ten percent, I’ve seen, and then Steve Hilton and Chad Bianco sort of in the teens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, which honestly I think could change after yesterday’s endorsement from the president. I think that’s the biggest endorsement yet in this race and a really clear signal, I think, for a lot of Republicans to kind of rally around Steve Hilton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And ironically, all of this kind of consternation among Democrats about having two Republicans in the general election—they tried calling on candidates to drop out, they tried public shaming, rolling out their own polls—ultimately what will probably make the biggest difference is Trump coming in and saying, “I’m endorsing Hilton,” and creating separation between him and Bianco, allowing a Democrat to get to the general election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Seema, you wrote about this, and I’m wondering what you think about the effect that Trump’s endorsement will have, and how much of an endorsement Hilton will benefit from if he does end up in the November election.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In talking to strategists in both parties, I think there’s a broad belief that this could make sure that Hilton wins one of the top two spots in the June primary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, if only one Republican wins a top spot, given California’s overwhelmingly Democratic electorate, that basically means that the race is done after June. The Democrat takes the other spot, as we saw with Newsom and John Cox, and in other races like Jerry Brown and Neel Kashkari in 2014.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think the president’s endorsement comes days before the state Republican Party meets in San Diego this weekend for their endorsement conference and convention. I think at one point there was doubt that either Hilton or Bianco would be able to get the number of votes needed to get that endorsement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now I think people believe that Hilton actually has a chance of getting it because the people who show up at the convention—this is the president’s base. They listen to him. So it could really make a big difference this weekend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And, Marisa, it wasn’t like the two Republican candidates, who would essentially need to split the Republican vote evenly, were helping each other do that before this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It doesn’t sound like they were trying to sort of make it so that they could lock out Democrats.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I have no indication they’ve actually been working together. I think that was sort of a fever dream of Republicans that they could do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the fact that you do have so many low-polling Democratic candidates certainly made it a possibility, but a very low one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the bigger question at this point is who can kind of use these final months ahead of the June primary on the Democratic side to really make their case and engage an electorate that seems very distracted in this moment with what’s happening nationally, and just sort of not that excited about this race.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think that’s crazy either. Guy and Seema and I live and breathe this stuff 365, 24/7, so you all don’t have to. And why would you be that invested yet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have a lot of friends who do follow the news relatively carefully who are still like, “Wait, who’s running?” So I think as people’s ballots drop and the ads ramp up, as they’re starting to, we will see some more engagement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, this listener writes: “This problem reminds me of RBG’s decision to hang on at the Supreme Court. Some of the Democratic candidates with no chance of winning need to show some political savvy and character and drop out.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Guy, you were mentioning that people have tried shaming and other means for pushing or asking Democratic candidates to start leaving the race when this was more of a fear with regard to Democrats being locked out of the November election. Why didn’t any of that work?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it could speak in part to the weakness of the party infrastructure, and also I think candidates feeling somewhat emboldened by those calls.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the days right after Rusty Hicks, the Democratic Party chair, came out and said these lower-polling candidates should drop out, a lot of those candidates that I talked to said, “Well, since you said that, now I’m staying in.” They didn’t want to look like a chump and just get out of the race because of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not to say that still isn’t going to come. I talked to Betty Yee, who’s been polling in kind of low single digits. She stayed in, she filed to run, she said it was a dream of hers to be on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she said that come mid-April, she’s going to reevaluate her chances in this campaign and decide whether to drop out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now at this point, you’re not going to get off the ballot. Your name is still going to be on the ballot. But I think you could easily see in the next few weeks some of these candidates decide to hang it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to Marisa’s point, when ballots drop in early May, I think that’s when you’re really going to see the ad barrage—when you’re really going to see all these candidates who’ve been saving up a lot of money really try to get on the airwaves and match, to some extent, what we’ve seen from someone like Tom Steyer, who’s been on TV since the ball dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that’s when you might see some more natural separation between these campaigns.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And those candidates polling roughly around three percent are Javier Becerra, Antonio Villaraigosa, Betty Yee, as you mentioned, Matt Mahan, and Tony Thurmond potentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And as you also note, Guy, vote-by-mail ballots are going out no later than May 4. But I guess I’m curious, Seema, if you feel like there is a lot of room for the race to change between now and then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Seema Mehta:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think each of the leading Democrats has potential weaknesses, and I think that’s what the rest of the field is sort of counting on to see where we are a couple weeks from now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also, when Rusty made his request for people to sort of consider their viability—and this also ties into the USC debate that was canceled at the last minute because of questions around the methodology used to select the candidates who would participate—all of the candidates of color are polling low.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was viewed in some quarters as just inappropriate because basically the state Democratic Party and other leaders were asking all the candidates of color to drop out. So that’s also a factor, I think.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And I also wanted to put the same question to you, Marisa, about room for this race to change in any particularly significant way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, it has to, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think someone really is going to jump ahead in the next few weeks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s likely that we go into primary week with it still being a contest among some of these Democrats, but I do think that we will see at least some consolidation the closer we get to June 2, and that their numbers could at least jump up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the point of the campaign where opposition research starts being dumped. I think we’re going to see—we’re already seeing someone like Eric Swalwell go up on TV for the first time. Steyer’s been there for a while. With Porter, I think we’re sort of waiting to see how she handles that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Not that TV is the whole game anymore, and I think all these candidates have been really active on social media, which is obviously a really important place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think there will be some changes. And again, as voters check in, you’ll see—there’s still a pretty good chunk in a lot of these polls that are undecided. And then also, you could see a shift from some of these lower-polling candidates toward other ones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. About a quarter of voters are undecided.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listener Sophie writes: “Californians have been put in a terrible position. I’m very frustrated with the Democratic Party with there being too many candidates and no clear front-runner. I’m taking the approach of looking at the polls and going with who is leading. Right now, that is Eric Swalwell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I would love for Javier Becerra to be governor and would vote for him if he were higher in the polls. He’s the most qualified by far, but sadly, we are placed in a position where we have to be strategic at this point to make sure we don’t have a Republican lockout.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right after the break, we’re going to dig into who the leading candidates are, their backgrounds, their promises, and their baggage as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But listeners, do tell us if there is a candidate that you would like to see be in the top two. And if not, why not? What has made it difficult for you to make that choice? What are the most important issues that you want the next governor to address?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, email address: forum@kqed.org. Phone number: 866-733-6786. And you can find us on our social channels at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, April 7 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A 2015 report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine found that “most people will experience at least one diagnostic error in their lifetime, sometimes with devastating consequences.” In her new book “The Elusive Body: Patients Doctors, and the Diagnosis Crisis,” journalist Alexandra Sifferlin looks into what has been done in the decade since that report to improve the accuracy of diagnoses. We talk to Sifferlin and a UCSF doctor profiled in the book about why, despite enormous strides in medicine, the medical system often fails patients in this fundamental task and what it means to live without an accurate diagnosis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. This morning, we’re talking about the role of a particular slice of the practice of medicine: the diagnosis. A 2015 report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine found that most people will experience at least one diagnostic error in their lifetime, sometimes with devastating consequences. Journalist Alexandra Sifferlin’s new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Elusive Body\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, looks at why, despite enormous strides in medicine, the medical system often fails patients in this fundamental task. Sifferlin joins us this morning. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by UCSF’s Gurpreet Dhaliwal, who is one of the most highly regarded diagnosticians in the country and one of the subjects of Alexandra’s book. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alexandra, your new book, and also the recent essays you’ve had come out about it, are really about the importance of diagnosis. I guess I always just assumed that diagnosis was just part of what being a doctor was all about, but it really is this very specific skill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, absolutely. I think it’s this very essential medical act, and I do think for patients, for many of the people that I spoke to, it’s the most important piece of medical information that they can receive. But, of course, there are other aspects of medical practice, including what you do after diagnosis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. Just from my own personal experience, 25 years ago, my mother got an incorrect diagnosis of what turned out to be quite serious cancer, which delayed her getting treatment. But I imagine most diagnostic errors are not that serious. Or how would you kind of break down the distribution of these errors?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I think some are quite serious, but when these are being calculated, they’re often broken down into three different categories. So you have an incorrect diagnosis, you have a delayed diagnosis, so it just takes a long time, and then you also have a misdiagnosis—people are just living without an answer to what their health complications are. But I think it really can be a very major issue. Researchers at Johns Hopkins fairly recently estimated that somewhere around 800,000 people in a year could experience, or have experienced, death or potential disability from a diagnostic error.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. I mean, obviously, there are harder and easier cases here. My kids got the flu a couple weeks ago. We knew because they took a flu test, and it was pretty open and shut: influenza B, got it. On the other end of the spectrum, there are these cases that are wildly difficult, and maybe you’re one of only a few people in the world who might have this thing. You introduce us in the book to one such case, a person named Louise Proctor. Can you tell us a little bit about her medical issue and how long it took for it to be properly diagnosed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. So Louise is the eldest of five siblings, and they grew up in rural Kentucky. Basically, as each of them entered their mid-20s, they started to experience these very mysterious and painful symptoms whereby, after walking for maybe five to ten minutes, all of a sudden it would feel as if they were freezing in place, as if their legs were turning to stone, as they would describe it to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not a cramp, though. Something else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not a cramp. It really felt, one, extremely painful, but two, like, I cannot move my leg one step more. I really feel frozen where I’m standing. It took 30 years from when Louise, the eldest, started experiencing symptoms to actually receive a diagnosis. She had gone to multiple physicians, had many incorrect diagnoses during that period of time, and it really took her and her family finding this program that I profile in the book called the Undiagnosed Diseases Network, run out of the National Institutes of Health, to actually crack the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. And did they crack the case via a new kind of test? How did they do it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So they brought the entire family in. In this case, they all went to Bethesda, to the NIH, and they did a series of genetic screenings in addition to physical exams. They took a punch biopsy, which is where you take a little bit of skin from the arm, and they were really studying the cells in a dish—sort of this really laboratory science. Ultimately, they figured out that they had an incredibly rare genetic disorder. It’s called arterial calcification due to deficiency of CD73. They call it ACDC for short. But basically, this was a completely new, novel disease discovery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. I mean, what did it do for them to get a diagnosis, given that it’s not like someone is making a drug specifically for them, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No, and this is what was really interesting. So yes, ACDC does not have a cure. However, there are some promising medications under study. I was very interested in this question: do you feel like you’ve benefited from a diagnosis even if you are going to continue to live with these symptoms? And the family, Louise especially, told me that yes, because it sort of ended this really long journey that she had been on where she had no idea what was happening to her. She had no idea what would happen to her. She didn’t know if this was something her own children were going to experience over time. Thankfully, this particular disorder is not something that could be passed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she talked to me a lot about how living for decades undiagnosed was so agonizing that having a diagnosis was just this answer and relief. In addition to that, she also felt that the scientists and doctors who diagnosed her, having them feel like they are on her team, and now that they know what it is, they can at least try different experimental therapies, create a plan—they just feel less alone in that process.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and also in the book, you introduce readers to Gurpreet, who many of his peers consider to be one of the top diagnosticians in the country. Gurpreet, in your view, what makes a doctor good at this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I appreciate what Ms. Sifferlin said about this being a subskill. Diagnosis is one skill that we have to do as doctors. Doctors commit themselves to different parts of the practice. But part of paying attention or getting good at diagnosis is actually studying your own performance and creating your own learning programs. All doctors are diagnosing all the time, but you can choose to be a doctor who says, “I want to examine my performance. I want to learn from my errors. I want to seek more challenging cases. I want to talk to other people about this aspect of doctoring.” That is something that I have found rewarding for myself and, ultimately, for my patients.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What percentage of doctors do you think end up focusing on this as opposed to some other part of the field?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, all doctors are diagnosing, so 100 percent of us are doing it. But in terms of focusing on it, it’s hard to say because I think everyone has some personal commitment to getting better at it. But the number of people who can devote extra time and energy and orient their practice around it, I would just say is a minority, as I would say about every other doctoring skill. A subset of doctors are really working hard on their communication skills. A subset are working really hard on getting better at their procedural skills. So I think it’s a choice to be made, but I don’t know the numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s interesting. I’m not a doctor, but I imagine if I had gone to school for 12 or 15 years for something, and then I had spent 20 years practicing, having someone come along and say, “Hey, maybe you could get better at doing this core function of your job,” I might feel some kind of way about that. Do you encounter that with doctors?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I understand that completely. In fact, I think in the book, Ms. Sifferlin really makes a point about how, for doctors, this is almost the core essence of their identity. Perhaps it means more to us than anything else: the ability to tell a patient, “This is what’s going on with you.” A patient gives us a story, we try to use all our professional knowledge, and turn the story back over to them, just the way she described it finally happened for the Proctor family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to hear that you could improve in that area, I think it could rub some people the wrong way. The goal would be to have a stance where you would want to get that kind of feedback and get better at it. But we’re all human.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. How does your mind work when you’re seeing a patient for the first time and you know that they have a mysterious or difficult-to-diagnose condition? What are the steps that you’d want to walk your mind through?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think out of the gates, when we meet a patient, even if we may have a sense that it’s mysterious, the first premise is that common things are common. So it’s rare that we’ll ever jump to a rare condition. It’s far more likely we’re dealing with an unusual variation of something common—diseases like gout and pneumonia and gallbladder disease and infections of the colon—that are just presenting in a tricky or atypical way, maybe a way I haven’t seen, or because something about your body and your immune system or your age makes it present differently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we spend a lot of time just trying to make sure it’s not the common thing presenting in a cloaked way. Once that proves not to be the case, then we start to expand and pull in all our resources. That’s our memory, that’s the medical literature, that’s specialists, sometimes the patient’s own research, certainly searching on the internet. All of those things get drawn in. I would say that’s the minority of cases, but that’s the playbook we use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think there are particular categories of ailments that are especially hard to diagnose?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know. I think every organ system and every type of ailment has edge cases that are really tricky. I think virtually every category has evaded me. I’m a general internist, so I work in the emergency room, I work in the hospital, I work in the clinic, and I don’t think any category is off limits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some diseases, for instance, have fuzzier diagnostic criteria. A good example might be mental health disorders. Sometimes we are trying to decide: is this disorder someone has psychiatric? Is it neurologic? Is it some other organ system that’s manifesting in the brain? So there are certain areas of the body where the criteria are not so clear, or the presentations are so varied, and the number of things we can select from is so big, that it makes it hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re going to return to that after the break. We’re talking about medical diagnoses—the right ones, the wrong ones, and how the medical field is working to improve them. We’re joined by Gurpreet Dhaliwal, who is professor of medicine at UCSF, and we also have Alexandra Sifferlin, who’s a health and science editor at the New York Times and also author of the new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Elusive Body: Patients, Doctors, and the Diagnosis Crisis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, of course, would love to hear from you. Perhaps you’ve suffered from an illness that took a long time to diagnose but eventually was diagnosed. We’d love to know: what did that feel like? What did it do for you? Maybe you have a hard-to-diagnose ailment. What’s that experience been like? Maybe you’re a medical professional—you were trained, but you’d like to get better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. This morning, we’re talking about the role of a particular slice of the practice of medicine: the diagnosis. A 2015 report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine found that most people will experience at least one diagnostic error in their lifetime, sometimes with devastating consequences. Journalist Alexandra Sifferlin’s new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Elusive Body\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, looks at why, despite enormous strides in medicine, the medical system often fails patients in this fundamental task. Sifferlin joins us this morning. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by UCSF’s Gurpreet Dhaliwal, who is one of the most highly regarded diagnosticians in the country and one of the subjects of Alexandra’s book. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alexandra, your new book, and also the recent essays you’ve had come out about it, are really about the importance of diagnosis. I guess I always just assumed that diagnosis was just part of what being a doctor was all about, but it really is this very specific skill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, absolutely. I think it’s this very essential medical act, and I do think for patients, for many of the people that I spoke to, it’s the most important piece of medical information that they can receive. But, of course, there are other aspects of medical practice, including what you do after diagnosis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. Just from my own personal experience, 25 years ago, my mother got an incorrect diagnosis of what turned out to be quite serious cancer, which delayed her getting treatment. But I imagine most diagnostic errors are not that serious. Or how would you kind of break down the distribution of these errors?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I think some are quite serious, but when these are being calculated, they’re often broken down into three different categories. So you have an incorrect diagnosis, you have a delayed diagnosis, so it just takes a long time, and then you also have a misdiagnosis—people are just living without an answer to what their health complications are. But I think it really can be a very major issue. Researchers at Johns Hopkins fairly recently estimated that somewhere around 800,000 people in a year could experience, or have experienced, death or potential disability from a diagnostic error.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. I mean, obviously, there are harder and easier cases here. My kids got the flu a couple weeks ago. We knew because they took a flu test, and it was pretty open and shut: influenza B, got it. On the other end of the spectrum, there are these cases that are wildly difficult, and maybe you’re one of only a few people in the world who might have this thing. You introduce us in the book to one such case, a person named Louise Proctor. Can you tell us a little bit about her medical issue and how long it took for it to be properly diagnosed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. So Louise is the eldest of five siblings, and they grew up in rural Kentucky. Basically, as each of them entered their mid-20s, they started to experience these very mysterious and painful symptoms whereby, after walking for maybe five to ten minutes, all of a sudden it would feel as if they were freezing in place, as if their legs were turning to stone, as they would describe it to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not a cramp, though. Something else.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Not a cramp. It really felt, one, extremely painful, but two, like, I cannot move my leg one step more. I really feel frozen where I’m standing. It took 30 years from when Louise, the eldest, started experiencing symptoms to actually receive a diagnosis. She had gone to multiple physicians, had many incorrect diagnoses during that period of time, and it really took her and her family finding this program that I profile in the book called the Undiagnosed Diseases Network, run out of the National Institutes of Health, to actually crack the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. And did they crack the case via a new kind of test? How did they do it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So they brought the entire family in. In this case, they all went to Bethesda, to the NIH, and they did a series of genetic screenings in addition to physical exams. They took a punch biopsy, which is where you take a little bit of skin from the arm, and they were really studying the cells in a dish—sort of this really laboratory science. Ultimately, they figured out that they had an incredibly rare genetic disorder. It’s called arterial calcification due to deficiency of CD73. They call it ACDC for short. But basically, this was a completely new, novel disease discovery.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. I mean, what did it do for them to get a diagnosis, given that it’s not like someone is making a drug specifically for them, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexandra Sifferlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No, and this is what was really interesting. So yes, ACDC does not have a cure. However, there are some promising medications under study. I was very interested in this question: do you feel like you’ve benefited from a diagnosis even if you are going to continue to live with these symptoms? And the family, Louise especially, told me that yes, because it sort of ended this really long journey that she had been on where she had no idea what was happening to her. She had no idea what would happen to her. She didn’t know if this was something her own children were going to experience over time. Thankfully, this particular disorder is not something that could be passed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she talked to me a lot about how living for decades undiagnosed was so agonizing that having a diagnosis was just this answer and relief. In addition to that, she also felt that the scientists and doctors who diagnosed her, having them feel like they are on her team, and now that they know what it is, they can at least try different experimental therapies, create a plan—they just feel less alone in that process.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and also in the book, you introduce readers to Gurpreet, who many of his peers consider to be one of the top diagnosticians in the country. Gurpreet, in your view, what makes a doctor good at this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I appreciate what Ms. Sifferlin said about this being a subskill. Diagnosis is one skill that we have to do as doctors. Doctors commit themselves to different parts of the practice. But part of paying attention or getting good at diagnosis is actually studying your own performance and creating your own learning programs. All doctors are diagnosing all the time, but you can choose to be a doctor who says, “I want to examine my performance. I want to learn from my errors. I want to seek more challenging cases. I want to talk to other people about this aspect of doctoring.” That is something that I have found rewarding for myself and, ultimately, for my patients.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What percentage of doctors do you think end up focusing on this as opposed to some other part of the field?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course, all doctors are diagnosing, so 100 percent of us are doing it. But in terms of focusing on it, it’s hard to say because I think everyone has some personal commitment to getting better at it. But the number of people who can devote extra time and energy and orient their practice around it, I would just say is a minority, as I would say about every other doctoring skill. A subset of doctors are really working hard on their communication skills. A subset are working really hard on getting better at their procedural skills. So I think it’s a choice to be made, but I don’t know the numbers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s interesting. I’m not a doctor, but I imagine if I had gone to school for 12 or 15 years for something, and then I had spent 20 years practicing, having someone come along and say, “Hey, maybe you could get better at doing this core function of your job,” I might feel some kind of way about that. Do you encounter that with doctors?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I understand that completely. In fact, I think in the book, Ms. Sifferlin really makes a point about how, for doctors, this is almost the core essence of their identity. Perhaps it means more to us than anything else: the ability to tell a patient, “This is what’s going on with you.” A patient gives us a story, we try to use all our professional knowledge, and turn the story back over to them, just the way she described it finally happened for the Proctor family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And to hear that you could improve in that area, I think it could rub some people the wrong way. The goal would be to have a stance where you would want to get that kind of feedback and get better at it. But we’re all human.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. How does your mind work when you’re seeing a patient for the first time and you know that they have a mysterious or difficult-to-diagnose condition? What are the steps that you’d want to walk your mind through?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think out of the gates, when we meet a patient, even if we may have a sense that it’s mysterious, the first premise is that common things are common. So it’s rare that we’ll ever jump to a rare condition. It’s far more likely we’re dealing with an unusual variation of something common—diseases like gout and pneumonia and gallbladder disease and infections of the colon—that are just presenting in a tricky or atypical way, maybe a way I haven’t seen, or because something about your body and your immune system or your age makes it present differently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we spend a lot of time just trying to make sure it’s not the common thing presenting in a cloaked way. Once that proves not to be the case, then we start to expand and pull in all our resources. That’s our memory, that’s the medical literature, that’s specialists, sometimes the patient’s own research, certainly searching on the internet. All of those things get drawn in. I would say that’s the minority of cases, but that’s the playbook we use.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do you think there are particular categories of ailments that are especially hard to diagnose?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gurpreet Dhaliwal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know. I think every organ system and every type of ailment has edge cases that are really tricky. I think virtually every category has evaded me. I’m a general internist, so I work in the emergency room, I work in the hospital, I work in the clinic, and I don’t think any category is off limits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some diseases, for instance, have fuzzier diagnostic criteria. A good example might be mental health disorders. Sometimes we are trying to decide: is this disorder someone has psychiatric? Is it neurologic? Is it some other organ system that’s manifesting in the brain? So there are certain areas of the body where the criteria are not so clear, or the presentations are so varied, and the number of things we can select from is so big, that it makes it hard.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re going to return to that after the break. We’re talking about medical diagnoses—the right ones, the wrong ones, and how the medical field is working to improve them. We’re joined by Gurpreet Dhaliwal, who is professor of medicine at UCSF, and we also have Alexandra Sifferlin, who’s a health and science editor at the New York Times and also author of the new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Elusive Body: Patients, Doctors, and the Diagnosis Crisis\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We, of course, would love to hear from you. Perhaps you’ve suffered from an illness that took a long time to diagnose but eventually was diagnosed. We’d love to know: what did that feel like? What did it do for you? Maybe you have a hard-to-diagnose ailment. What’s that experience been like? Maybe you’re a medical professional—you were trained, but you’d like to get better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 6 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles was once defined by smog that for decades choked the city with toxic haze. It obscured surrounding mountains and exposed people – especially children – to dangerous levels of lead, carbon monoxide and other pollutants. But by the early 2000s, thanks to steady public pressure and government reforms, the region’s air transformed. We talk to UCLA’s Ann Carlson about what L.A. can teach us about confronting climate change now, as the Trump administration rolls back emissions standards. Her new book is “Smog and Sunshine: The Surprising Story of How Los Angeles Cleaned Up Its Air.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is suing the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for repealing the 2009 endangerment finding. That finding has been the legal and scientific basis for regulating planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks. California is also opposing the Trump administration’s proposed fuel economy standards, which roll back stringent Biden-era rules.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As the Trump administration abandons policies to address climate change, can California help fill the void?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anne Carlson thinks so. She’s an environmental law expert at UCLA, former acting administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under Biden, and has written a new book called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Smog and Sunshine: The Surprising Story of How Los Angeles Cleaned Up Its Air\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anne, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First, I want to ask you about the Trump administration’s withdrawal of the EPA’s 2009 endangerment finding. Remind us why that has been seen as so monumental. Remind us what the finding did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The endangerment finding was actually directed by the United States Supreme Court after a case called Massachusetts v. EPA. The court told the EPA to determine whether greenhouse gases, when emitted by cars and trucks, endanger public health and welfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was the George W. Bush administration that looked at all the science and said yes — greenhouse gases do endanger public health and welfare. That meant the EPA then had to issue regulations to cut greenhouse gases, first from cars and trucks and then from other sources like power plants, chemical plants, and other major emitters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s the basis for almost all of our regulations that cut greenhouse gases from the sources causing the planet to warm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Talk about how disruptive this revocation is in addressing climate change related to greenhouse gas emissions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is the foundation for the federal government to regulate greenhouse gases, so it basically takes the United States out of the game of regulating the emissions that we all know are causing the planet to warm. It’s a huge deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s also really important symbolically because the U.S. historically is the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases, and it’s basically saying to the rest of the globe: we don’t want to take responsibility for the greenhouse gases we’ve put into the atmosphere in the first place, and for those we continue to emit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Last month, California sued to stop the revocation of the endangerment finding, along with dozens of other states, cities, and counties. First, can you tell us how you think this will play out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a really good question. By all measures, this should be an easy case for California to win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s because Massachusetts v. EPA already decided that the EPA needs to regulate greenhouse gases if it finds they endanger public health and welfare, and the science is overwhelming that those emissions do, in fact, harm public health and welfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what the EPA is really playing for, I think, is to get the United States Supreme Court to revisit its decision. That’s because the decision was issued in 2007, and there are no longer any members of the court who were in the majority for that opinion. In fact, the chief justice, along with Justices Alito and Thomas, all dissented.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think they’re trying to roll the dice, get the court to take it up, and overturn its 2007 precedent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But you’ve also pointed out that while the endangerment finding revocation is very bad, it might actually give California more tools to potentially mitigate greenhouse gases. How so?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a kind of wonky legal argument, but California, under the federal Clean Air Act, is the only state that’s given permission to issue its own emission standards for cars and trucks. That power has been in place since the mid-1960s, when Los Angeles was choked with smog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, in order for California to exercise that power, it needs to get what’s called a waiver from the EPA. Congress actually stepped in a few months ago and took away from California three waivers that the Biden administration had issued to cut both greenhouse gases and conventional pollution from cars and trucks, especially heavy-duty trucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So here’s my argument: under the Clean Air Act, California is allowed to regulate emissions that are covered by the Act. The EPA is now saying greenhouse gases aren’t covered by the section that gives California that power, or by the section that prohibits any other state from regulating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems to me to be a very strange argument to say both that we can’t regulate and no states can regulate. So I think there’s a good legal claim that California could, collectively with a number of other states, issue its own standards and not even need to seek permission from the EPA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand that California is looking into that possibility. At the same time, are you hearing from other legal experts who feel that your interpretation is correct?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a number of other legal experts are intrigued by the possibility. It would clearly be challenged in court, and I’m sure the Trump administration would come in and say California can’t regulate any emissions without permission from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Anne Carlson, Shirley Shapiro Professor of Environmental Law and founding director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at UCLA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, we want to hear from you. What concerns do you have about the Trump administration’s dismantling of climate protections? What role do you think California could play to fill that void?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What questions do you have about the impact of the administration’s rollbacks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that number is 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So while the rescission of the endangerment finding by the EPA eliminates federal greenhouse gas emission standards for cars and trucks, it does not directly repeal CAFE standards, correct?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s right. The CAFE standards are issued under a different statute called the Energy Policy and Conservation Act, which was created during the oil crisis of the 1970s to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil by making cars and trucks more fuel-efficient.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration has, however, proposed a really dramatic rollback of those standards, and Congress has passed legislation that reduces penalties for manufacturers that fail to comply with the standards to zero.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So right now there is no consequence for a car manufacturer refusing to comply.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What were the standards during your time at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had one set for model years 2024 to 2026, and then a new set for 2027 to 2031 model-year cars. We’d start to see fuel economy heading up toward about sixty miles per gallon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration is actually proposing to roll that back to under thirty-five miles per gallon. It’s an extraordinary proposal to basically eviscerate fuel economy standards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So essentially there’s no teeth to it right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, there’s no teeth to it. Whether manufacturers continue to comply remains to be seen, but the federal agency that administers the CAFE standards is doing nothing to hold their feet to the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you see as the impact?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re going to see bigger cars and trucks that are less fuel-efficient. In particular, we’ll continue seeing increased adoption of SUVs and trucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Ford F-150 is the best-selling vehicle in the United States, and there will be no federal regulations of consequence directing manufacturers to improve fuel economy for those vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is happening while gas prices are north of four dollars on average nationally, and much higher in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there a chance manufacturers keep pursuing higher fuel economy because that’s what consumers want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Manufacturers are still making electric vehicles, and we’re seeing an uptick in interest in EVs as gas prices increase. There are also a lot of used EVs on the market, and that market is getting tighter again as consumers think about what the future is going to hold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Trump administration said the Biden standards would have raised the average cost of a new car by nearly a thousand dollars. Is that true?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The upfront costs of fuel-economy technology are higher, but the long-term savings over the life of the car, because you use less gasoline, are significantly higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they’re taking into account costs without taking into account very real benefits, including environmental benefits from burning fewer fossil fuels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Taken together, do you think air pollution will get worse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It won’t get better, and in some respects it is getting worse because of climate change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we are not going back to the days of the 1970s, ’80s, or ’90s, when smog alerts were a regular part of life in Los Angeles and the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cars and trucks are much cleaner than they used to be. But in Southern California and the Central Valley, we still need a lot of work to meet pollution requirements, and the best way to do that is to clean up cars and trucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> After the break, I do want to dig deeper into how Los Angeles addressed its smog problem and what we can learn from that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re talking with Anne Carlson, former administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under Biden and an environmental law expert at UCLA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stay with us. This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, April 6 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Los Angeles was once defined by smog that for decades choked the city with toxic haze. It obscured surrounding mountains and exposed people – especially children – to dangerous levels of lead, carbon monoxide and other pollutants. But by the early 2000s, thanks to steady public pressure and government reforms, the region’s air transformed. We talk to UCLA’s Ann Carlson about what L.A. can teach us about confronting climate change now, as the Trump administration rolls back emissions standards. Her new book is “Smog and Sunshine: The Surprising Story of How Los Angeles Cleaned Up Its Air.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California is suing the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for repealing the 2009 endangerment finding. That finding has been the legal and scientific basis for regulating planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions from cars and trucks. California is also opposing the Trump administration’s proposed fuel economy standards, which roll back stringent Biden-era rules.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As the Trump administration abandons policies to address climate change, can California help fill the void?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anne Carlson thinks so. She’s an environmental law expert at UCLA, former acting administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under Biden, and has written a new book called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Smog and Sunshine: The Surprising Story of How Los Angeles Cleaned Up Its Air\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anne, welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First, I want to ask you about the Trump administration’s withdrawal of the EPA’s 2009 endangerment finding. Remind us why that has been seen as so monumental. Remind us what the finding did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The endangerment finding was actually directed by the United States Supreme Court after a case called Massachusetts v. EPA. The court told the EPA to determine whether greenhouse gases, when emitted by cars and trucks, endanger public health and welfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was the George W. Bush administration that looked at all the science and said yes — greenhouse gases do endanger public health and welfare. That meant the EPA then had to issue regulations to cut greenhouse gases, first from cars and trucks and then from other sources like power plants, chemical plants, and other major emitters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s the basis for almost all of our regulations that cut greenhouse gases from the sources causing the planet to warm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Talk about how disruptive this revocation is in addressing climate change related to greenhouse gas emissions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It is the foundation for the federal government to regulate greenhouse gases, so it basically takes the United States out of the game of regulating the emissions that we all know are causing the planet to warm. It’s a huge deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s also really important symbolically because the U.S. historically is the biggest emitter of greenhouse gases, and it’s basically saying to the rest of the globe: we don’t want to take responsibility for the greenhouse gases we’ve put into the atmosphere in the first place, and for those we continue to emit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Last month, California sued to stop the revocation of the endangerment finding, along with dozens of other states, cities, and counties. First, can you tell us how you think this will play out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a really good question. By all measures, this should be an easy case for California to win.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s because Massachusetts v. EPA already decided that the EPA needs to regulate greenhouse gases if it finds they endanger public health and welfare, and the science is overwhelming that those emissions do, in fact, harm public health and welfare.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what the EPA is really playing for, I think, is to get the United States Supreme Court to revisit its decision. That’s because the decision was issued in 2007, and there are no longer any members of the court who were in the majority for that opinion. In fact, the chief justice, along with Justices Alito and Thomas, all dissented.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think they’re trying to roll the dice, get the court to take it up, and overturn its 2007 precedent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But you’ve also pointed out that while the endangerment finding revocation is very bad, it might actually give California more tools to potentially mitigate greenhouse gases. How so?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a kind of wonky legal argument, but California, under the federal Clean Air Act, is the only state that’s given permission to issue its own emission standards for cars and trucks. That power has been in place since the mid-1960s, when Los Angeles was choked with smog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">However, in order for California to exercise that power, it needs to get what’s called a waiver from the EPA. Congress actually stepped in a few months ago and took away from California three waivers that the Biden administration had issued to cut both greenhouse gases and conventional pollution from cars and trucks, especially heavy-duty trucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So here’s my argument: under the Clean Air Act, California is allowed to regulate emissions that are covered by the Act. The EPA is now saying greenhouse gases aren’t covered by the section that gives California that power, or by the section that prohibits any other state from regulating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It seems to me to be a very strange argument to say both that we can’t regulate and no states can regulate. So I think there’s a good legal claim that California could, collectively with a number of other states, issue its own standards and not even need to seek permission from the EPA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand that California is looking into that possibility. At the same time, are you hearing from other legal experts who feel that your interpretation is correct?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a number of other legal experts are intrigued by the possibility. It would clearly be challenged in court, and I’m sure the Trump administration would come in and say California can’t regulate any emissions without permission from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Anne Carlson, Shirley Shapiro Professor of Environmental Law and founding director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at UCLA.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, we want to hear from you. What concerns do you have about the Trump administration’s dismantling of climate protections? What role do you think California could play to fill that void?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What questions do you have about the impact of the administration’s rollbacks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email forum@kqed.org.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also call us at 866-733-6786. Again, that number is 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So while the rescission of the endangerment finding by the EPA eliminates federal greenhouse gas emission standards for cars and trucks, it does not directly repeal CAFE standards, correct?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s right. The CAFE standards are issued under a different statute called the Energy Policy and Conservation Act, which was created during the oil crisis of the 1970s to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil by making cars and trucks more fuel-efficient.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration has, however, proposed a really dramatic rollback of those standards, and Congress has passed legislation that reduces penalties for manufacturers that fail to comply with the standards to zero.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So right now there is no consequence for a car manufacturer refusing to comply.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What were the standards during your time at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had one set for model years 2024 to 2026, and then a new set for 2027 to 2031 model-year cars. We’d start to see fuel economy heading up toward about sixty miles per gallon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Trump administration is actually proposing to roll that back to under thirty-five miles per gallon. It’s an extraordinary proposal to basically eviscerate fuel economy standards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So essentially there’s no teeth to it right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, there’s no teeth to it. Whether manufacturers continue to comply remains to be seen, but the federal agency that administers the CAFE standards is doing nothing to hold their feet to the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What do you see as the impact?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re going to see bigger cars and trucks that are less fuel-efficient. In particular, we’ll continue seeing increased adoption of SUVs and trucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Ford F-150 is the best-selling vehicle in the United States, and there will be no federal regulations of consequence directing manufacturers to improve fuel economy for those vehicles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is happening while gas prices are north of four dollars on average nationally, and much higher in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is there a chance manufacturers keep pursuing higher fuel economy because that’s what consumers want?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Manufacturers are still making electric vehicles, and we’re seeing an uptick in interest in EVs as gas prices increase. There are also a lot of used EVs on the market, and that market is getting tighter again as consumers think about what the future is going to hold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Trump administration said the Biden standards would have raised the average cost of a new car by nearly a thousand dollars. Is that true?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The upfront costs of fuel-economy technology are higher, but the long-term savings over the life of the car, because you use less gasoline, are significantly higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they’re taking into account costs without taking into account very real benefits, including environmental benefits from burning fewer fossil fuels.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Taken together, do you think air pollution will get worse?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anne Carlson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It won’t get better, and in some respects it is getting worse because of climate change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we are not going back to the days of the 1970s, ’80s, or ’90s, when smog alerts were a regular part of life in Los Angeles and the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cars and trucks are much cleaner than they used to be. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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},
"localStorageReducer": {},
"browserHistoryReducer": [],
"eventsReducer": {},
"fssReducer": {},
"tvDailyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvWeeklyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvPrimetimeScheduleReducer": {},
"tvMonthlyScheduleReducer": {},
"userAccountReducer": {
"user": {
"email": null,
"emailStatus": "EMAIL_UNVALIDATED",
"loggedStatus": "LOGGED_OUT",
"loggingChecked": false,
"articles": [],
"firstName": null,
"lastName": null,
"phoneNumber": null,
"fetchingMembership": false,
"membershipError": false,
"memberships": [
{
"id": null,
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"familyNumber": null,
"memberNumber": null,
"memberSince": null,
"expirationDate": null,
"pfsEligible": false,
"isSustaining": false,
"membershipLevel": "Prospect",
"membershipStatus": "Non Member",
"lastGiftDate": null,
"renewalDate": null,
"lastDonationAmount": null
}
]
},
"authModal": {
"isOpen": false,
"view": "LANDING_VIEW"
},
"error": null
},
"youthMediaReducer": {},
"checkPleaseReducer": {
"filterData": {
"region": {
"key": "Restaurant Region",
"filters": [
"Any Region"
]
},
"cuisine": {
"key": "Restaurant Cuisine",
"filters": [
"Any Cuisine"
]
}
},
"restaurantDataById": {},
"restaurantIdsSorted": [],
"error": null
},
"location": {
"pathname": "/forum",
"previousPathname": "/"
}
}