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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, February 23 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship allows you to vote, get a passport and run for office – and it’s supposed to be a promise of protection, equality and belonging. But as immigration agents arrest and detain more American citizens, what if that promise is a myth? In a new book journalist Daisy Hernández dismantles the idea that citizenship is neutral, stable or fair. And she proposes that today it often replaces race a powerful instrument of exclusion. We talk to Hernández about her new book “Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth” and what she thinks real belonging might look like. Are you a noncitizen, or a U.S. citizen who’s felt “lesser than?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. With federal agents arresting and detaining citizens as part of the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown — purportedly to target violent criminals living in the country illegally — many have been left asking: What does it mean to be a citizen anymore? What’s happened to the protection and belonging associated with that status?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new book, Daisy Hernández, Northwestern associate professor of creative writing, offers needed context on why our understanding of citizenship can be so easily destabilized. She shows, through historical examples, social critique, and her own personal story, that citizenship is as much a tool of exclusion as inclusion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her book is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And listeners, how are you thinking about what it means to be a U.S. citizen in this moment — whether you are one or not? Daisy Hernández, welcome to Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you. Before we get into the myth of citizenship, I just want to establish the generally held idea of what being a U.S. citizen means — the rights and privileges associated with it — even if many of us have not always felt that in practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I think that a lot of times when people think about citizenship, they often go to the right to vote — very especially in federal elections — and there’s a lot of that in the news. But citizenship really affects every arena of our lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A part of our lives that sometimes we don’t think about when we have citizenship — when we have that privilege — is something as simple as: Where are you able to work? Are you able to work? What kind of work can you have? Your access to health care as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people don’t know that even if you have a green card, if you need access to Medicaid, you can’t do that in the first five years with federal dollars. You have to live in a state that is willing to pay for you to have Medicaid access. So citizenship really determines a lot about very intimate parts of our lives, including whether we can go to college and use Pell Grants. It has a very profound, expansive influence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I was also struck by how you noted — by virtue of having first opened your eyes on land called the United States, as you write in your book — that you can travel without worry or a visa to more countries than you can name. So U.S. citizenship has defined how Americans can move about and exist globally too, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. Although there are other countries and other passports that can get you more access to certain parts of the world. But there’s no doubt — and I was surprised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s that passport index where the U.S. has dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly. I was actually really surprised. You know, I grew up in a family where my father is a political refugee from Cuba, my mother is from Colombia, I had an uncle from Puerto Rico, another from Peru. I tell people I grew up in the United Nations of Latinos located in New Jersey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought I knew a lot about citizenship — it was so central to my life — and I had no idea that you could purchase U.S. citizenship. But that’s a program that’s been in place since the 1990s. So I also point out to people: there is actually a program where, if you have a million dollars, you can invest and effectively purchase it. It’s not only the traditional ways that we think of accessing citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how are you thinking about citizenship in this moment? Practically every day now, it seems like there’s a new story of a federal agent arresting or detaining an American citizen as part of the immigration crackdown. And, of course, there’s been the killing of two U.S. citizens in Minneapolis, Renée Goode and Alex Petty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For many people, the idea of citizenship — and the benefits it’s supposed to confer — do feel destabilized. You give some examples at the outset of how our understanding of citizenship might not be as strong or as fixed as we’ve believed it to be. But I’m curious how you’re thinking about the role of citizenship in this particular moment — or how you’ve been hearing others around you talk about what citizenship means as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I talk in the book about the fact that right now you really are more a citizen of the state in which you live than of the country as a whole. You can see this very clearly with reproductive rights. If you’re a pregnant woman in California, your access to reproductive care is very different than if you’re in Texas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re transgender and live in Tennessee, you’re not able to get a license that reflects your gender designation, but you can if you live in Illinois. The same is true if you need to access Medicaid dollars to see a doctor — that varies enormously by state. I have an entire chapter in the book about health care access in terms of citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think a lot of people think about state-based citizenship, but that’s part of what we’re experiencing. And then the larger picture of what’s happening right now with federal agents — this is something Black Americans in this country have faced since the beginning. That has not been the kind of citizenship white Americans or some other Americans have experienced. So in some ways what’s happening is new — the targeting of citizens — and in other ways it’s not new; the target has simply expanded.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You note the story of Lennon Tyler last year — a white woman handcuffed at a border checkpoint in San Diego when she was coming back from a trip to Mexico with her German boyfriend, who had a tourist visa and was ultimately deported. She asked aloud while detained, “Why am I being detained? Is this legal? Can you do this to a U.S. citizen?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think she was essentially asserting about her citizenship in that moment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of us have made assumptions about the rights we have as citizens — a sense that we would be protected by the government from itself, essentially. But that has just not been the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I started doing the research and looked back at the history, as early as 1790 Congress said you cannot naturalize unless you’re a white immigrant. The history of racial exclusion in this country is quite profound. So citizenship has never been as stable a category as we’ve thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when we look at U.S. citizens who have died in Gaza or the West Bank, the U.S. government has not defended its own citizens from attacks by the Israeli government or settlers. So we have a lot of evidence that we are not protected — but the pool of people who are not protected has expanded enormously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions or reflections on what Daisy is saying about citizenship? Are you a noncitizen residing in the U.S.? How are you feeling in this moment? Are you an American citizen who has felt lesser than, or just feeling differently about your citizenship status right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell us that story. What does citizenship mean to you? What do you associate with it? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you note, scholars have been searching for language to convey the idea that you can have citizenship and still be treated badly. Can you talk a little bit about that — the terms they’ve come up with to describe what may be closer to the reality of citizenship as you describe it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think many of us are familiar with the concept of a second-class citizen. But there’s a scholar who talks about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">semi-citizenship\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — you don’t have full citizenship, you have part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another scholar suggested using the word \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">denizen\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — if you look up “citizen” in a thesaurus, you might see “denizen,” meaning an inhabitant of a place. He suggested something like “denizenship type one,” where you have full access to many rights, and “type two,” where you have more limited access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I like to go back to the sociologist T. H. Marshall. He was studying England and how citizenship developed there. What he pointed to was that in the twentieth century we saw the rise of what he calls \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">social citizenship\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — yes, you might have the right to vote and free speech, but are you able to pay your rent? Are you able to see a doctor when you need one? Do you have access to education? Do you feel safe walking past a police officer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a lot of times in the U.S., when we’re talking about racism, transphobia, or xenophobia, what we’re really talking about is social citizenship — the quality of our day-to-day lives as citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Interestingly, Marshall was really applying that mainly to white men in post–World War II England, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. He was looking at the history of white men in England. He said first we had civil citizenship — property ownership, free speech — then political citizenship — the right to vote, serve on juries, run for office — and then in the twentieth century the rise of social citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a lot neater and tidier than real life, as other scholars have pointed out, but it does give us language for what we’re experiencing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is Marshall’s framework meaningful to you? Can you talk about when you started to realize that yes, you are a citizen — but your citizenship is different from other people who also hold citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I write in the book about working at the public library in my community. I loved the library — I was the child who was there every week checking out books — and then I got to work there when I was older. It was really exciting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, a police officer from the local station, which was next door, showed up and said, “Hey, you speak Spanish, right? Can you come over and help me talk to this guy?” They had arrested someone who didn’t speak English, and no one in the police force spoke Spanish.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though I was asked, I didn’t feel like I could say no. It was a very emotional experience. I don’t even remember what I was translating — I kind of dissociated. It really shook me up. I’d had my own encounters with police when I was younger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was one of those moments where I realized: I don’t want to be doing this, and yet I don’t feel like I can refuse. I know I wouldn’t have been asked if I hadn’t been racialized in a particular way — understood as bilingual in a white community at that time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also write about being a teenager and being pulled over by three police cars for a broken taillight. I thought that was normal because I didn’t have a reference point. This was the 1990s, when my white community was becoming a Latino-majority community, and they saw me as a driver in a particular way — something I reflected on decades later. In the moment, I just thought, “Wow, they’re really serious about taillights.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Daisy Hernández, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her previous books include \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kissing Bug: A True Story of a Family, an Insect, and a Nation’s Neglect of a Deadly Disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s an associate professor of creative writing at Northwestern and a journalist who’s reported for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Geographic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slate.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, February 23 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship allows you to vote, get a passport and run for office – and it’s supposed to be a promise of protection, equality and belonging. But as immigration agents arrest and detain more American citizens, what if that promise is a myth? In a new book journalist Daisy Hernández dismantles the idea that citizenship is neutral, stable or fair. And she proposes that today it often replaces race a powerful instrument of exclusion. We talk to Hernández about her new book “Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth” and what she thinks real belonging might look like. Are you a noncitizen, or a U.S. citizen who’s felt “lesser than?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. With federal agents arresting and detaining citizens as part of the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown — purportedly to target violent criminals living in the country illegally — many have been left asking: What does it mean to be a citizen anymore? What’s happened to the protection and belonging associated with that status?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new book, Daisy Hernández, Northwestern associate professor of creative writing, offers needed context on why our understanding of citizenship can be so easily destabilized. She shows, through historical examples, social critique, and her own personal story, that citizenship is as much a tool of exclusion as inclusion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Her book is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And listeners, how are you thinking about what it means to be a U.S. citizen in this moment — whether you are one or not? Daisy Hernández, welcome to Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you. Before we get into the myth of citizenship, I just want to establish the generally held idea of what being a U.S. citizen means — the rights and privileges associated with it — even if many of us have not always felt that in practice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I think that a lot of times when people think about citizenship, they often go to the right to vote — very especially in federal elections — and there’s a lot of that in the news. But citizenship really affects every arena of our lives.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A part of our lives that sometimes we don’t think about when we have citizenship — when we have that privilege — is something as simple as: Where are you able to work? Are you able to work? What kind of work can you have? Your access to health care as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of people don’t know that even if you have a green card, if you need access to Medicaid, you can’t do that in the first five years with federal dollars. You have to live in a state that is willing to pay for you to have Medicaid access. So citizenship really determines a lot about very intimate parts of our lives, including whether we can go to college and use Pell Grants. It has a very profound, expansive influence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I was also struck by how you noted — by virtue of having first opened your eyes on land called the United States, as you write in your book — that you can travel without worry or a visa to more countries than you can name. So U.S. citizenship has defined how Americans can move about and exist globally too, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. Although there are other countries and other passports that can get you more access to certain parts of the world. But there’s no doubt — and I was surprised.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s that passport index where the U.S. has dropped.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, exactly. I was actually really surprised. You know, I grew up in a family where my father is a political refugee from Cuba, my mother is from Colombia, I had an uncle from Puerto Rico, another from Peru. I tell people I grew up in the United Nations of Latinos located in New Jersey.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I thought I knew a lot about citizenship — it was so central to my life — and I had no idea that you could purchase U.S. citizenship. But that’s a program that’s been in place since the 1990s. So I also point out to people: there is actually a program where, if you have a million dollars, you can invest and effectively purchase it. It’s not only the traditional ways that we think of accessing citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So how are you thinking about citizenship in this moment? Practically every day now, it seems like there’s a new story of a federal agent arresting or detaining an American citizen as part of the immigration crackdown. And, of course, there’s been the killing of two U.S. citizens in Minneapolis, Renée Goode and Alex Petty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For many people, the idea of citizenship — and the benefits it’s supposed to confer — do feel destabilized. You give some examples at the outset of how our understanding of citizenship might not be as strong or as fixed as we’ve believed it to be. But I’m curious how you’re thinking about the role of citizenship in this particular moment — or how you’ve been hearing others around you talk about what citizenship means as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I talk in the book about the fact that right now you really are more a citizen of the state in which you live than of the country as a whole. You can see this very clearly with reproductive rights. If you’re a pregnant woman in California, your access to reproductive care is very different than if you’re in Texas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re transgender and live in Tennessee, you’re not able to get a license that reflects your gender designation, but you can if you live in Illinois. The same is true if you need to access Medicaid dollars to see a doctor — that varies enormously by state. I have an entire chapter in the book about health care access in terms of citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I don’t think a lot of people think about state-based citizenship, but that’s part of what we’re experiencing. And then the larger picture of what’s happening right now with federal agents — this is something Black Americans in this country have faced since the beginning. That has not been the kind of citizenship white Americans or some other Americans have experienced. So in some ways what’s happening is new — the targeting of citizens — and in other ways it’s not new; the target has simply expanded.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You note the story of Lennon Tyler last year — a white woman handcuffed at a border checkpoint in San Diego when she was coming back from a trip to Mexico with her German boyfriend, who had a tourist visa and was ultimately deported. She asked aloud while detained, “Why am I being detained? Is this legal? Can you do this to a U.S. citizen?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What do you think she was essentially asserting about her citizenship in that moment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think a lot of us have made assumptions about the rights we have as citizens — a sense that we would be protected by the government from itself, essentially. But that has just not been the case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I started doing the research and looked back at the history, as early as 1790 Congress said you cannot naturalize unless you’re a white immigrant. The history of racial exclusion in this country is quite profound. So citizenship has never been as stable a category as we’ve thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when we look at U.S. citizens who have died in Gaza or the West Bank, the U.S. government has not defended its own citizens from attacks by the Israeli government or settlers. So we have a lot of evidence that we are not protected — but the pool of people who are not protected has expanded enormously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions or reflections on what Daisy is saying about citizenship? Are you a noncitizen residing in the U.S.? How are you feeling in this moment? Are you an American citizen who has felt lesser than, or just feeling differently about your citizenship status right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Tell us that story. What does citizenship mean to you? What do you associate with it? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you note, scholars have been searching for language to convey the idea that you can have citizenship and still be treated badly. Can you talk a little bit about that — the terms they’ve come up with to describe what may be closer to the reality of citizenship as you describe it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think many of us are familiar with the concept of a second-class citizen. But there’s a scholar who talks about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">semi-citizenship\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — you don’t have full citizenship, you have part of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another scholar suggested using the word \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">denizen\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — if you look up “citizen” in a thesaurus, you might see “denizen,” meaning an inhabitant of a place. He suggested something like “denizenship type one,” where you have full access to many rights, and “type two,” where you have more limited access.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I like to go back to the sociologist T. H. Marshall. He was studying England and how citizenship developed there. What he pointed to was that in the twentieth century we saw the rise of what he calls \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">social citizenship\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — yes, you might have the right to vote and free speech, but are you able to pay your rent? Are you able to see a doctor when you need one? Do you have access to education? Do you feel safe walking past a police officer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a lot of times in the U.S., when we’re talking about racism, transphobia, or xenophobia, what we’re really talking about is social citizenship — the quality of our day-to-day lives as citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Interestingly, Marshall was really applying that mainly to white men in post–World War II England, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. He was looking at the history of white men in England. He said first we had civil citizenship — property ownership, free speech — then political citizenship — the right to vote, serve on juries, run for office — and then in the twentieth century the rise of social citizenship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a lot neater and tidier than real life, as other scholars have pointed out, but it does give us language for what we’re experiencing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is Marshall’s framework meaningful to you? Can you talk about when you started to realize that yes, you are a citizen — but your citizenship is different from other people who also hold citizenship?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daisy Hernández:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I write in the book about working at the public library in my community. I loved the library — I was the child who was there every week checking out books — and then I got to work there when I was older. It was really exciting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One day, a police officer from the local station, which was next door, showed up and said, “Hey, you speak Spanish, right? Can you come over and help me talk to this guy?” They had arrested someone who didn’t speak English, and no one in the police force spoke Spanish.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even though I was asked, I didn’t feel like I could say no. It was a very emotional experience. I don’t even remember what I was translating — I kind of dissociated. It really shook me up. I’d had my own encounters with police when I was younger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was one of those moments where I realized: I don’t want to be doing this, and yet I don’t feel like I can refuse. I know I wouldn’t have been asked if I hadn’t been racialized in a particular way — understood as bilingual in a white community at that time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also write about being a teenager and being pulled over by three police cars for a broken taillight. I thought that was normal because I didn’t have a reference point. This was the 1990s, when my white community was becoming a Latino-majority community, and they saw me as a driver in a particular way — something I reflected on decades later. In the moment, I just thought, “Wow, they’re really serious about taillights.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Daisy Hernández, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Citizenship: Notes on an American Myth.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Her previous books include \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Kissing Bug: A True Story of a Family, an Insect, and a Nation’s Neglect of a Deadly Disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She’s an associate professor of creative writing at Northwestern and a journalist who’s reported for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">National Geographic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Slate.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, February 23 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With midterm elections a mere eight months away, are Democrats ready? Maybe not, according to journalist Mark Leibovich who traveled the country talking to party leaders about how Democrats intend to meet the moment. Despite Trump’s low approval ratings and a slim Republican majority in Congress, a Democratic rebound is far from a slam dunk with the Republican National Committee currently holding a $100 million fundraising advantage. What happened to the once-confident multiracial coalition of working class men and women? We talk about the future of the Democratic party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before, but perhaps there is not unity among Democrats. In Mark Leibovich’s new Atlantic profile of the Democratic Party, we read about the many fault lines of this big, broad institution. But the one that struck me was Senator Elissa Slotkin reflecting what we’ve heard from many listeners during this past year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leibovich writes: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What if the main divide among Democrats today is not, as so many assume, progressive versus moderate?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Slotkin told Leibovich that the question “Is it Mamdani or is it Spanberger?” is kind of an outdated approach. The more consequential split, she said, is between leaders willing to fight and go on offense and those content to wait Trump out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to talk about it this morning. We’re joined by Mark Leibovich, staff writer with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. His latest article is “The Democrats Aren’t Built for This.” Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alexis, good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Aimee Allison, founder and president of She the People, a national organization dedicated to building the political power of women of color. Welcome, Amy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let’s start with this fighting impulse — or not fighting. Do you think there’s agreement yet, Mark, that Democrats should be fighting? Are they fighting? Or do they see what they’re doing as fighting within this national party infrastructure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I think it took a while to get there. Essentially, what I was doing with this story was trying to take the temperature of where the Democratic Party was. Starting from the 2024 election, there was a sense that the party was immediately stunned and kind of knocked back on its feet by the results. But also — and this is a bit of a cliché, but I’m going to use it anyway — kind of in the wilderness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not atypical for parties that lose big elections to go through a period of identity crisis, not really knowing where to go next, who their leaders are, and so forth. But in this case, it just seemed to go on and on. People were trying to wring their hands about the lessons and so forth. Meanwhile, Donald Trump seemed to be running roughshod over much of our democracy, and Democrats didn’t seem to be — at least according to a lot of rank-and-file Democrats — fighting hard enough to resist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it took a while. Especially after the November off-year elections in Virginia, New York, and New Jersey, where Democrats really overperformed — and also in a lot of other elections across the country — the party seemed to find some footing. A lot of leaders felt more emboldened since then. I think that’s been reflected in the politics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think Democrats have, quote unquote, solved their problems. The main dynamic right now is that a lot of voters really don’t like what the current administration is doing. They don’t like Donald Trump, and Democrats absolutely have an opening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Aimee Allison, how do you see this point?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amy Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that Democrats in California have tried to hold together a pretty broad ideological coalition, but many people in the party apparatus — as well as leaders who have been in place for quite a long time — aren’t ready for the moment. I’d agree: they’re not operating as if the MAGA movement, which basically transformed the Republican Party from the inside out, has also created an environment where Democrats can’t function the way they used to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practices, the policies, the things they used to do — those don’t work anymore because we’re in a new environment. So when it comes to assessing where the Democratic Party is, in California as well as nationally, it really comes down to how well those who run the party and those who are running for office or currently in office can adapt to the new political reality. And the answer is: most aren’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, when we look around, there are just a handful of Democrats — in Congress or statewide — who are standouts. Many others really don’t know where to turn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things that’s really interesting is that Democrats have tended to be kind of institutionalist in their orientation. You know, here in California, we wanted to have voting districts that were fair and equitable. And then along come these changes — extreme gerrymandering in Texas and across the country driven by Republicans — and we end up passing Proposition 50 here in the state. Aimee, was this a sign for you that at least California Democrats were willing to play outside the institutional boundaries they had largely stayed within?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Changing the voting map was an indication that the electorate in California wants fighting — and they want fighting that’s going to put us on a more equal playing field. So yes, in terms of defining and protecting the great blue wall, which is the state of California, I think there’s a huge appetite for that kind of response to what many people see as election manipulation happening in other parts of the country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s more. I think the electorate in California — particularly California Democrats — want to see even bolder action when it comes to the use of tax dollars, standing up against ICE, and protections for everyday people. So yes, it was an indication that people want this kind of response. People in other states that we work with want their statewide Democrats or their federal representatives to take bold stances. They want solutions, and there’s a huge appetite to support the kind of fighting that’s going to be required — and a new kind of fighting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mark, I know in Virginia there’s been similar work on the maps in response to gerrymandering — even more extreme gerrymandering. Is that the sort of fighting you think Democratic National Party folks should get behind? Or are there other types of things you think Senator Slotkin or others you talked to were thinking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is obviously the best and most clear example right now. We haven’t mentioned Gavin Newsom yet — he really was the one who drove this. It seemed like something snapped in him, probably last spring, maybe around the National Guard deployments to Los Angeles. He just took the gloves off and decided not only to take on the gerrymandering — essentially tear up the map and start again — but he actually won it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was a big risk. It could easily have gone very sideways given the many factions involved and the history here. But he managed to pull it off. Coupled with his social media presence and his sharp remarks, I think it’s been kind of a model that’s propelled other Democrats to find their voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition 50 was vindicated by what happened at the ballot box. And like you said, a lot of places like Virginia, possibly Maryland, and other states have followed suit or attempted to. But what’s important to point out is that this wasn’t really a local issue. Newsom acted almost entirely out of a national political imperative. This was something Republicans started in Texas, and California used the state as a kind of retaliatory cudgel — and it worked famously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure there are other things they’ll think about, but for now this is the most practical, right-in-front-of-us example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things I feel like I hear a lot from our listeners and other folks here in the Bay Area is worry about the midterm elections and what the Trump administration may attempt to do — or is thinking about doing — openly. Did you hear anything from Democrats about that? In an actual scenario where the midterm elections experience nationalization — whatever that would mean — what would the Democratic plan be to fight back, Mark?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s hard to know because this is so unprecedented. No one really knows what we’re dealing with yet — what election interference might look like or what tactics might be used. But one thing I do hear over and over again — and people like Nancy Pelosi, Ken Martin, the chair of the DNC, and a number of other high-level Democrats have said this — is that they are prepared. They are preparing. They have a lot of lawyers involved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s obviously going to be easier in states run by Democratic governors — California, Illinois, Michigan, and so forth. But ultimately, my sense is — and this is vague because no one really knows — they say they’re very prepared and taking it seriously. That’s about what we have right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Aimee, what do you hear in your political world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to point out that the Democratic Party — both here in California, which, as you pointed out, Mark, is more important nationally than essentially any other state right now in terms of opposition to Trump and MAGA policies — but also nationally, leadership has been missing in action or acting in ways that have left party faithful confused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listen, I work with women of color. Women of color, particularly Black women, have always been the most loyal Democratic voters. So I know what I’m talking about when I say the people who show up for Democrats in elections have been mystified — and frankly angry — at the way Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer have not really worked for unity or moved Democrats as one opposition party that could actually gum up the works for Trump’s actions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been an overreliance on the courts and an underreliance on political maneuvering where they actually have power. That’s left Democrats scratching their heads: what are they doing? Particularly when some Democrats vote for budgets that expand ICE or vote to congratulate ICE on their actions after controversial operations in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I say all that to say: leadership in California — particularly Gavin Newsom — becomes more important when national leaders are missing. They don’t have the strategy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s one listener that agrees with you:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I’ve been a Democrat for 50 years and an avid listener to NPR for over 40. I’ve had a feeling that I’ve watched a process similar to Hemingway’s description of how to go bankrupt — gradually, then suddenly. 2024 was a disaster. Afterwards, the left suddenly remembered to talk about the working class. I think they confused the working class with the middle class all these years. Schumer can’t be given leadership. He, along with other anachronisms, have strategized the party into this hole.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll leave it up there. More on the Democrats right when we get back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stop me if you’ve heard this one before, but perhaps there is not unity among Democrats. In Mark Leibovich’s new Atlantic profile of the Democratic Party, we read about the many fault lines of this big, broad institution. But the one that struck me was Senator Elissa Slotkin reflecting what we’ve heard from many listeners during this past year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leibovich writes: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What if the main divide among Democrats today is not, as so many assume, progressive versus moderate?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Slotkin told Leibovich that the question “Is it Mamdani or is it Spanberger?” is kind of an outdated approach. The more consequential split, she said, is between leaders willing to fight and go on offense and those content to wait Trump out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to talk about it this morning. We’re joined by Mark Leibovich, staff writer with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Atlantic\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. His latest article is “The Democrats Aren’t Built for This.” Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Alexis, good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re also joined by Aimee Allison, founder and president of She the People, a national organization dedicated to building the political power of women of color. Welcome, Amy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So let’s start with this fighting impulse — or not fighting. Do you think there’s agreement yet, Mark, that Democrats should be fighting? Are they fighting? Or do they see what they’re doing as fighting within this national party infrastructure?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I think it took a while to get there. Essentially, what I was doing with this story was trying to take the temperature of where the Democratic Party was. Starting from the 2024 election, there was a sense that the party was immediately stunned and kind of knocked back on its feet by the results. But also — and this is a bit of a cliché, but I’m going to use it anyway — kind of in the wilderness.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not atypical for parties that lose big elections to go through a period of identity crisis, not really knowing where to go next, who their leaders are, and so forth. But in this case, it just seemed to go on and on. People were trying to wring their hands about the lessons and so forth. Meanwhile, Donald Trump seemed to be running roughshod over much of our democracy, and Democrats didn’t seem to be — at least according to a lot of rank-and-file Democrats — fighting hard enough to resist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it took a while. Especially after the November off-year elections in Virginia, New York, and New Jersey, where Democrats really overperformed — and also in a lot of other elections across the country — the party seemed to find some footing. A lot of leaders felt more emboldened since then. I think that’s been reflected in the politics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I don’t think Democrats have, quote unquote, solved their problems. The main dynamic right now is that a lot of voters really don’t like what the current administration is doing. They don’t like Donald Trump, and Democrats absolutely have an opening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Aimee Allison, how do you see this point?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amy Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that Democrats in California have tried to hold together a pretty broad ideological coalition, but many people in the party apparatus — as well as leaders who have been in place for quite a long time — aren’t ready for the moment. I’d agree: they’re not operating as if the MAGA movement, which basically transformed the Republican Party from the inside out, has also created an environment where Democrats can’t function the way they used to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The practices, the policies, the things they used to do — those don’t work anymore because we’re in a new environment. So when it comes to assessing where the Democratic Party is, in California as well as nationally, it really comes down to how well those who run the party and those who are running for office or currently in office can adapt to the new political reality. And the answer is: most aren’t.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, when we look around, there are just a handful of Democrats — in Congress or statewide — who are standouts. Many others really don’t know where to turn.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things that’s really interesting is that Democrats have tended to be kind of institutionalist in their orientation. You know, here in California, we wanted to have voting districts that were fair and equitable. And then along come these changes — extreme gerrymandering in Texas and across the country driven by Republicans — and we end up passing Proposition 50 here in the state. Aimee, was this a sign for you that at least California Democrats were willing to play outside the institutional boundaries they had largely stayed within?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Changing the voting map was an indication that the electorate in California wants fighting — and they want fighting that’s going to put us on a more equal playing field. So yes, in terms of defining and protecting the great blue wall, which is the state of California, I think there’s a huge appetite for that kind of response to what many people see as election manipulation happening in other parts of the country.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think there’s more. I think the electorate in California — particularly California Democrats — want to see even bolder action when it comes to the use of tax dollars, standing up against ICE, and protections for everyday people. So yes, it was an indication that people want this kind of response. People in other states that we work with want their statewide Democrats or their federal representatives to take bold stances. They want solutions, and there’s a huge appetite to support the kind of fighting that’s going to be required — and a new kind of fighting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mark, I know in Virginia there’s been similar work on the maps in response to gerrymandering — even more extreme gerrymandering. Is that the sort of fighting you think Democratic National Party folks should get behind? Or are there other types of things you think Senator Slotkin or others you talked to were thinking about?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, I think this is obviously the best and most clear example right now. We haven’t mentioned Gavin Newsom yet — he really was the one who drove this. It seemed like something snapped in him, probably last spring, maybe around the National Guard deployments to Los Angeles. He just took the gloves off and decided not only to take on the gerrymandering — essentially tear up the map and start again — but he actually won it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was a big risk. It could easily have gone very sideways given the many factions involved and the history here. But he managed to pull it off. Coupled with his social media presence and his sharp remarks, I think it’s been kind of a model that’s propelled other Democrats to find their voice.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Proposition 50 was vindicated by what happened at the ballot box. And like you said, a lot of places like Virginia, possibly Maryland, and other states have followed suit or attempted to. But what’s important to point out is that this wasn’t really a local issue. Newsom acted almost entirely out of a national political imperative. This was something Republicans started in Texas, and California used the state as a kind of retaliatory cudgel — and it worked famously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sure there are other things they’ll think about, but for now this is the most practical, right-in-front-of-us example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things I feel like I hear a lot from our listeners and other folks here in the Bay Area is worry about the midterm elections and what the Trump administration may attempt to do — or is thinking about doing — openly. Did you hear anything from Democrats about that? In an actual scenario where the midterm elections experience nationalization — whatever that would mean — what would the Democratic plan be to fight back, Mark?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mark Leibovich:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s hard to know because this is so unprecedented. No one really knows what we’re dealing with yet — what election interference might look like or what tactics might be used. But one thing I do hear over and over again — and people like Nancy Pelosi, Ken Martin, the chair of the DNC, and a number of other high-level Democrats have said this — is that they are prepared. They are preparing. They have a lot of lawyers involved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s obviously going to be easier in states run by Democratic governors — California, Illinois, Michigan, and so forth. But ultimately, my sense is — and this is vague because no one really knows — they say they’re very prepared and taking it seriously. That’s about what we have right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Aimee, what do you hear in your political world?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aimee Allison:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to point out that the Democratic Party — both here in California, which, as you pointed out, Mark, is more important nationally than essentially any other state right now in terms of opposition to Trump and MAGA policies — but also nationally, leadership has been missing in action or acting in ways that have left party faithful confused.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listen, I work with women of color. Women of color, particularly Black women, have always been the most loyal Democratic voters. So I know what I’m talking about when I say the people who show up for Democrats in elections have been mystified — and frankly angry — at the way Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer have not really worked for unity or moved Democrats as one opposition party that could actually gum up the works for Trump’s actions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s been an overreliance on the courts and an underreliance on political maneuvering where they actually have power. That’s left Democrats scratching their heads: what are they doing? Particularly when some Democrats vote for budgets that expand ICE or vote to congratulate ICE on their actions after controversial operations in places like Chicago, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I say all that to say: leadership in California — particularly Gavin Newsom — becomes more important when national leaders are missing. They don’t have the strategy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s one listener that agrees with you:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I’ve been a Democrat for 50 years and an avid listener to NPR for over 40. I’ve had a feeling that I’ve watched a process similar to Hemingway’s description of how to go bankrupt — gradually, then suddenly. 2024 was a disaster. Afterwards, the left suddenly remembered to talk about the working class. I think they confused the working class with the middle class all these years. Schumer can’t be given leadership. He, along with other anachronisms, have strategized the party into this hole.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll leave it up there. More on the Democrats right when we get back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
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