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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 24 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The dog, writes poet Billy Collins, moves through the world unencumbered, with “nothing but her brown coat and her modest blue collar.” In a new collection called “Dog Show,” the former U.S. Poet Laureate turns his gaze toward the quiet wisdom of our canine friends — their reminders to slow down, pay attention and let the ordinary become radiant. We listen back to our conversation with Collins about dogs, poetry and why it’s a good idea to get close to both in hard times. Has a dog changed the way you see the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. “The dog,” writes poet Billy Collins, “moves through the world unencumbered with, quote, nothing but her brown coat and her modest blue collar.” In a new poetry collection, the former U.S. Poet Laureate turns his gaze toward the quiet wisdom of our canine friends — their reminders to slow down, pay attention, to let the ordinary become radiant. Collins’ new collection is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. What has a dog shown you? Billy Collins, welcome to Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So tell me why dogs for you? Was there a moment — an early feature or aspect of dogs — that you found surprisingly profound?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, not surprisingly. My first encounter with dogs was purely literary. We lived in Queens, New York — in Jackson Heights — in a nice garden apartment, but there was really no place for a dog there. But my father got me, I was just twelve or maybe a little before that, books from the Lassie series by Albert Payson Terhune. These were all collies raised on, I think it’s called Sunnybrook Farm. And I read about ten of them. I was also into boy-detective fiction, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hardy Boys\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, but I wanted a dog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And finally we moved to Westchester and to a house, and my father broke down and got me a dog. But before he got the dog, he said, “Remember, we’re buying a heartache.” And I think that really resonates. This book — a book of poems written over quite a few years — really tries to avoid the sentimentality of Old Shep or the hard part of having a dog. Someone said dogs have only one flaw, and that is they don’t live long enough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, that was my first dog. And just one thing about the first dog — his name was Sparky, like maybe every tenth dog is called Sparky. So if you yell “Sparky” in a dog park, half of them run over. But I thought Sparky was a wonderful black-and-white crossbreed. Only later, when I looked at photographs, did I discover he was an extremely ugly dog. But that didn’t get through. He was my dog, so he was beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m still just so struck by what your dad said — that a dog is a heartache. How did that affect you as a child, or is it something that resonated more as time went on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, if you have several dogs, you have basically a string of heartaches, and you have to recover from them. One of the saddest things about dogs making their early departures is you know they’ve never had a concept of dying. So it comes as quite a surprise to them, and it must come as a kind of shift of mood or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have one poem in which a dog is thinking out loud to us — a dog who has a sense of its own mortality. Want to hear that one?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, sure. Absolutely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a short one. It’s called “A Dog on His Master.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As young as I look,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am growing older faster than he.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seven to one is the ratio they tend to say.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever the number, I will pass him one day\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and take the lead the way I do on our walks in the woods.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if this ever manages to cross his mind,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it would be the sweetest shadow I have ever cast on snow or grass.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Billy Collins reading from his new poetry collection \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m wondering if you could read one more for us — “The Collar.” I was so struck by this one because it’s just about a dog collar. So relatable, so simple, so ordinary — but the end is so surprising.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s in skinny lines, so it maybe kind of looks like a collar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The Collar”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A dog’s collar typically features a silvery D-ring where the leash is clipped on,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and usually the pendants of a gray rabies tag,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and a smaller ID bearing a number and his name,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">which can work to unhinge your heart when the collar is slipped over his ears and off his body,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">freeing him for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I understand from your author’s note that you are between dogs, Billy. So it sounds like your plan for your dog hiatus is that it will eventually come to an end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I hope there’s a dog out there for me. There just hasn’t been for a while because — well, really because of running around the country too much and not being in one place. And I think you can leave a cat alone for quite a long time, but they say six hours is about as long as you can leave a dog alone without the dog emotionally suffering from that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A listener writes: “My dog and I grew up together, and now she’s very old. When I saw her over the weekend, I walked into the room saying things she couldn’t hear, and she didn’t get up to greet me — so far from the way she used to jump and zoom — but her tail still thumped against the floor. Seeing her age made me feel the passage of time, viscerally. We were girls together.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s beautiful. Did you write that down somewhere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. This listener wrote this to us, actually.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s nicely phrased. I was going to be really impressed if you just made that up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I guess it made me wonder if your hiatus is not just connected to busyness, but maybe a little bit of grief. It is hard to outlive dogs, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’re buying another heartache, from my father’s point of view. And there’s probably a little voice sitting on your shoulder saying, “Do you really want to go through that again?” But I’m fond of saying, yes — they will break your heart. But before they do, they will enlarge it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Billy, could you read the opening poem in your collection called “Dharma” for us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Let me just make it clear: Dharma is not the dog’s name. The dog’s name was Janine. Dharma is a much more resonant spirit — I’m just trying to investigate whether the dog has a kind of spiritual dimension to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Dharma.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way the dog trots out the front door every morning\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">without a hat or an umbrella,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">without any money or the keys to her doghouse,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">never fails to fill the saucer of my heart with milky admiration.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who provides a finer example of a life without encumbrance?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thoreau in his curtainless hut with a single plate, a single spoon,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gandhi with his staff and his wire spectacles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Off she goes into the material world with nothing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">but her brown coat and her modest blue collar,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">following only her wet nose, the twin portals of her steady breathing,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">followed only by the plume of her tail.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only she did not shove the cat aside every morning and eat all his food,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">what a model of self-containment she would be.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a paragon of earthly detachment.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only she were not so eager for a rub behind the ears,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">so acrobatic in her welcomes.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only I were not her god.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does the fact that she sees you as her god — and does some of those things you describe in that last part of the poem — interrupt your ability to really see the spiritual dimension of a dog?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, yes. I think a dog is basically a dog. You can invest a dog with all sorts of attributes — particularly faithfulness and companionship. Man’s best friend. Clearly, a cat isn’t man’s best friend. And that’s an interesting description that’s been echoed through the ages: man’s best friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because if you really look at the idea of friendship — at least my idea — friendship is a relationship without purpose. You don’t want anything from your friend. He or she doesn’t want anything from you. All you want to do is spend time together. And that’s the way a dog is a friend. The dog doesn’t want anything from you — well, maybe food and water — but the dog just wants to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wake up at 3:30 in the morning — well, first thing that happens is the dog wakes up immediately. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are we doing?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? “We’re going to go for a drive.” \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There goes the tail wagging. Dog hops in the car — doesn’t care where you’re going. He’s with you. And that’s the main thing. You can’t get a cat to do that unless by force. They just want to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing I was struck by in that poem is the contradiction between the model of detachment and then the bundle of desire and need. Was there something useful about noting that contradiction?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, they’re so attached to you. At the same time, one loves just looking at a dog because a dog is always a dog. I mean, I think they have their moods, clearly. And even dogs who don’t look very expressive, I think, have expressions if you’re careful about reading them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, a dog coming back to you with the wrong stick — you can see something in the dog’s eyes. Not exactly shame, but he’s sort of aware he’s got the wrong stick, but he’s trying to get away with it. A little bit of deceptiveness in his eyes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with poet Billy Collins about dogs — what we can learn from them, and what they teach us about us. The new book is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners: What has your dog taught you? Has a dog changed the way you see the world? Helped you understand it? What role does your dog play in your life?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Forum From the Archives: What Has a Dog Shown You? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 24 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The dog, writes poet Billy Collins, moves through the world unencumbered, with “nothing but her brown coat and her modest blue collar.” In a new collection called “Dog Show,” the former U.S. Poet Laureate turns his gaze toward the quiet wisdom of our canine friends — their reminders to slow down, pay attention and let the ordinary become radiant. We listen back to our conversation with Collins about dogs, poetry and why it’s a good idea to get close to both in hard times. Has a dog changed the way you see the world?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. “The dog,” writes poet Billy Collins, “moves through the world unencumbered with, quote, nothing but her brown coat and her modest blue collar.” In a new poetry collection, the former U.S. Poet Laureate turns his gaze toward the quiet wisdom of our canine friends — their reminders to slow down, pay attention, to let the ordinary become radiant. Collins’ new collection is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. What has a dog shown you? Billy Collins, welcome to Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So tell me why dogs for you? Was there a moment — an early feature or aspect of dogs — that you found surprisingly profound?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, not surprisingly. My first encounter with dogs was purely literary. We lived in Queens, New York — in Jackson Heights — in a nice garden apartment, but there was really no place for a dog there. But my father got me, I was just twelve or maybe a little before that, books from the Lassie series by Albert Payson Terhune. These were all collies raised on, I think it’s called Sunnybrook Farm. And I read about ten of them. I was also into boy-detective fiction, like \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hardy Boys\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, but I wanted a dog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And finally we moved to Westchester and to a house, and my father broke down and got me a dog. But before he got the dog, he said, “Remember, we’re buying a heartache.” And I think that really resonates. This book — a book of poems written over quite a few years — really tries to avoid the sentimentality of Old Shep or the hard part of having a dog. Someone said dogs have only one flaw, and that is they don’t live long enough.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anyway, that was my first dog. And just one thing about the first dog — his name was Sparky, like maybe every tenth dog is called Sparky. So if you yell “Sparky” in a dog park, half of them run over. But I thought Sparky was a wonderful black-and-white crossbreed. Only later, when I looked at photographs, did I discover he was an extremely ugly dog. But that didn’t get through. He was my dog, so he was beautiful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m still just so struck by what your dad said — that a dog is a heartache. How did that affect you as a child, or is it something that resonated more as time went on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, if you have several dogs, you have basically a string of heartaches, and you have to recover from them. One of the saddest things about dogs making their early departures is you know they’ve never had a concept of dying. So it comes as quite a surprise to them, and it must come as a kind of shift of mood or something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do have one poem in which a dog is thinking out loud to us — a dog who has a sense of its own mortality. Want to hear that one?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, sure. Absolutely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a short one. It’s called “A Dog on His Master.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As young as I look,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am growing older faster than he.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Seven to one is the ratio they tend to say.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever the number, I will pass him one day\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and take the lead the way I do on our walks in the woods.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if this ever manages to cross his mind,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it would be the sweetest shadow I have ever cast on snow or grass.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Billy Collins reading from his new poetry collection \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m wondering if you could read one more for us — “The Collar.” I was so struck by this one because it’s just about a dog collar. So relatable, so simple, so ordinary — but the end is so surprising.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. It’s in skinny lines, so it maybe kind of looks like a collar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“The Collar”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A dog’s collar typically features a silvery D-ring where the leash is clipped on,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and usually the pendants of a gray rabies tag,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">and a smaller ID bearing a number and his name,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">which can work to unhinge your heart when the collar is slipped over his ears and off his body,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">freeing him for good.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I understand from your author’s note that you are between dogs, Billy. So it sounds like your plan for your dog hiatus is that it will eventually come to an end.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, I hope there’s a dog out there for me. There just hasn’t been for a while because — well, really because of running around the country too much and not being in one place. And I think you can leave a cat alone for quite a long time, but they say six hours is about as long as you can leave a dog alone without the dog emotionally suffering from that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A listener writes: “My dog and I grew up together, and now she’s very old. When I saw her over the weekend, I walked into the room saying things she couldn’t hear, and she didn’t get up to greet me — so far from the way she used to jump and zoom — but her tail still thumped against the floor. Seeing her age made me feel the passage of time, viscerally. We were girls together.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s beautiful. Did you write that down somewhere?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. This listener wrote this to us, actually.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s nicely phrased. I was going to be really impressed if you just made that up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I guess it made me wonder if your hiatus is not just connected to busyness, but maybe a little bit of grief. It is hard to outlive dogs, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’re buying another heartache, from my father’s point of view. And there’s probably a little voice sitting on your shoulder saying, “Do you really want to go through that again?” But I’m fond of saying, yes — they will break your heart. But before they do, they will enlarge it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Billy, could you read the opening poem in your collection called “Dharma” for us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Let me just make it clear: Dharma is not the dog’s name. The dog’s name was Janine. Dharma is a much more resonant spirit — I’m just trying to investigate whether the dog has a kind of spiritual dimension to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Dharma.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way the dog trots out the front door every morning\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">without a hat or an umbrella,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">without any money or the keys to her doghouse,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">never fails to fill the saucer of my heart with milky admiration.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who provides a finer example of a life without encumbrance?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thoreau in his curtainless hut with a single plate, a single spoon,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gandhi with his staff and his wire spectacles.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Off she goes into the material world with nothing\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">but her brown coat and her modest blue collar,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">following only her wet nose, the twin portals of her steady breathing,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">followed only by the plume of her tail.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only she did not shove the cat aside every morning and eat all his food,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">what a model of self-containment she would be.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What a paragon of earthly detachment.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only she were not so eager for a rub behind the ears,\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">so acrobatic in her welcomes.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only I were not her god.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Does the fact that she sees you as her god — and does some of those things you describe in that last part of the poem — interrupt your ability to really see the spiritual dimension of a dog?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, yes. I think a dog is basically a dog. You can invest a dog with all sorts of attributes — particularly faithfulness and companionship. Man’s best friend. Clearly, a cat isn’t man’s best friend. And that’s an interesting description that’s been echoed through the ages: man’s best friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because if you really look at the idea of friendship — at least my idea — friendship is a relationship without purpose. You don’t want anything from your friend. He or she doesn’t want anything from you. All you want to do is spend time together. And that’s the way a dog is a friend. The dog doesn’t want anything from you — well, maybe food and water — but the dog just wants to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you wake up at 3:30 in the morning — well, first thing that happens is the dog wakes up immediately. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What are we doing?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right? “We’re going to go for a drive.” \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Really?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There goes the tail wagging. Dog hops in the car — doesn’t care where you’re going. He’s with you. And that’s the main thing. You can’t get a cat to do that unless by force. They just want to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The other thing I was struck by in that poem is the contradiction between the model of detachment and then the bundle of desire and need. Was there something useful about noting that contradiction?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Billy Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, they’re so attached to you. At the same time, one loves just looking at a dog because a dog is always a dog. I mean, I think they have their moods, clearly. And even dogs who don’t look very expressive, I think, have expressions if you’re careful about reading them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, a dog coming back to you with the wrong stick — you can see something in the dog’s eyes. Not exactly shame, but he’s sort of aware he’s got the wrong stick, but he’s trying to get away with it. A little bit of deceptiveness in his eyes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with poet Billy Collins about dogs — what we can learn from them, and what they teach us about us. The new book is called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dog Show\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners: What has your dog taught you? Has a dog changed the way you see the world? Helped you understand it? What role does your dog play in your life?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 24 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For many, poetry is a balm. But for others, poetry feels inaccessible and hard to understand. In her latest book, “Fear Less: Poetry in Perilous Times” former U.S. Poet Laureate Tracy K. Smith aims to make poetry less intimidating. We listen back to our conversation with Smith about how to read poems, how to “listen at the widest possible angle” and how to use poetry to connect to one another across our differences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 23 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In groundbreaking experiments with mice, Boston University neuroscientist Steve Ramirez has succeeded in turning memories on and off, even implanting new ones. He says that someday we’ll be able to do the same in humans. But should we? We listen back to our conversation with Ramirez about the ethical dilemma and the personal experience that caused him to consider erasing his own memory. His new book is “How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The science of memory manipulation is farther along than you might think. Scientists have been able to weaken or erase memories — even implant new or false ones — in mice, inspiring sci-fi storylines in films and series like “Severance:”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I acknowledge that henceforth, my access to my memories will be spatially dictated. I will be unable to access outside recollections whilst on Lumen’s severed basement floor, nor retain work memories upon my ascent.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My guest, neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, has played a big role in moving forward memory manipulation in hopes of transforming the treatment of brain disorders. He’s written a book about it — and about the events in his life that caused him to think about changing his own memories. It’s called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Welcome to Forum, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really glad to have you. So where does the science of memory manipulation stand? Can you bring us up to speed generally on what scientists have successfully been able to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. The short of it — and I don’t think it’s too much of a spoiler — is that the answer to how to change a memory is to recall it. To remember the thing you’re trying to change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we’ve learned from decades of neuroscience research is that memory might feel like a video recording of the past that you can rewind again and again, but it’s much more dynamic — much more like a “Save As” file in a Word document. Memory is more flexible, changeable, dynamic than we expected, especially when we recall it. That’s when those changes begin to take place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point being: you can let change happen naturally, or you can have a goal — perhaps change that restores health or well-being to an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So to that end, you can do things like selectively target and erase specific memories?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In mice, yes. In flies, in mice, in rats — some of our model organisms — it’s now possible to find the brain cells that hold an individual memory and tinker with those cells. We can stimulate them to activate the memory, or quiet them to quiet the memory so it won’t pop back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In humans, it’s much more difficult. We don’t know how to truly erase a memory in the human brain. But recalling one — that part is straightforward. I can say, “What did you have for dinner last night?” or “How was celebrating your last birthday?” and you’ll bring that memory online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it depends on the goal — whether it’s simply sharing a story, or actually trying to change the contents of a memory for therapeutic purposes. In mice, certainly possible. In humans, the psychology is trickier.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as you know very well, it’s very possible to implant memories in mice. Can you tell us how you’ve been able to artificially activate a memory and implant a new or false memory in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I started as a graduate student at MIT in 2010, joining Susumu Tonegawa’s lab. The lab had this overarching mission: understand the science of how we learn and remember the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I teamed up with my late friend and day-to-day mentor, Xu Liu, who was designing the genetic engineering tools needed to find specific memories in the rodent brain. Xu and I teamed up quickly, with the collective goal of finding the cells that hold a memory and then tricking just those cells to turn on, to test if that was enough to activate the memory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xu had developed tools to find these cells, and we were shocked that the first big experiment we did — in 2011 — worked. The gist was that Xu had developed tools to find the brain cells holding a memory. First we tricked them to glow green so we could literally see them. Then we activated those glowing cells using optogenetics — “opto” meaning light, “genetics” meaning genetics — so we could make those cells activatable with lasers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was our million-dollar experiment. When we found the cells for one memory and used lasers to nudge them awake, the memory came back. It was the first demonstration of artificially activating a specific memory in the rodent brain. And since then, the last decade has been nothing short of a revolution — activating, changing, erasing, suppressing memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if I’m summarizing it correctly, basically: a mouse had a bad memory in one box. You put that mouse in a completely different box — no bad memories — and it’s happily scampering around. And then you activated the bad memory from the previous box, even though it hadn’t experienced it in the new one, and it froze in total fear?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly what we did. We started by inducing that freezing behavior — like if you heard a loud noise right now, you’d lock in place for a few seconds before fight-or-flight kicks in. It’s a behavioral measure that tells us whether the animal is recalling that negative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a safe environment, the mouse explores. But when we reactivate the negative memory, it stops and freezes for as long as we’re activating the cells. We wanted the most straightforward behavioral measure to test whether we were activating a memory — and once that worked, we could extend the work to more complex memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions about the science of memory manipulation? And would you ever do it — erase, implant, or change a memory if you could? What hopes do you have for these kinds of tools? What concerns?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stepping back a little bit, Steve, can you tell us how important our memories are to who we are and how we act? You’ve called memory nothing less than “the perpetual beating heart of life.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. To me, memory is simply what the brain does. And it’s amazing that no matter where you look in nature — algae, single-cell organisms, fruit flies, rodents, dogs, rabbits, humans — everywhere you see biology, you see memory. You see an organism soaking up experience, turning it into biologically meaningful change in the body and brain, and later accessing those changes to bring the memory back to life to make decisions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For humans, memory is the thing that threads and unifies our overall sense of being — our identity. Who we are today is the sum total of the memories and experiences that have sculpted us up to this moment. Memory is the beating heart of life, and in its absence, those features of identity become dramatically impaired very quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask what it was like when you realized those initial mouse experiments worked — that you were able to activate a memory and essentially implant one in a mouse’s brain in a space it had never experienced?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was beside myself — but wildly nervous as a grad student. I relied on Xu to be my echo chamber, and I didn’t know how excited I should be. It was my first year at MIT, and I already had this doom-and-gloom feeling of, “What am I doing here? Someone in admissions must’ve made a mistake.” So when the experiments worked, I wanted to jump up and down because it was as black-and-white as an experiment could be.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Xu was very laser-focused — didn’t really emote during experiments — just watching with razor-sharp focus. Afterwards I said, “That definitely just worked, right?” He confirmed it, and then immediately made a laundry list of follow-up experiments we needed to nail it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So inwardly I wanted to be over the moon, but I suppressed it because I didn’t know if it was appropriate to celebrate yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was very characteristic of Xu, wasn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. I sometimes tend to say in a million words what I could say in a hundred. Xu was the opposite — every word had purpose. He thought before he spoke. I admired that, and I learned so much from that disciplined way of thinking. We were very complementary — a dynamic duo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Boston University. His new book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with him — and you — after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 23 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In groundbreaking experiments with mice, Boston University neuroscientist Steve Ramirez has succeeded in turning memories on and off, even implanting new ones. He says that someday we’ll be able to do the same in humans. But should we? We listen back to our conversation with Ramirez about the ethical dilemma and the personal experience that caused him to consider erasing his own memory. His new book is “How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. The science of memory manipulation is farther along than you might think. Scientists have been able to weaken or erase memories — even implant new or false ones — in mice, inspiring sci-fi storylines in films and series like “Severance:”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“I acknowledge that henceforth, my access to my memories will be spatially dictated. I will be unable to access outside recollections whilst on Lumen’s severed basement floor, nor retain work memories upon my ascent.”\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My guest, neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, has played a big role in moving forward memory manipulation in hopes of transforming the treatment of brain disorders. He’s written a book about it — and about the events in his life that caused him to think about changing his own memories. It’s called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He joins me now. Welcome to Forum, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for having me today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really glad to have you. So where does the science of memory manipulation stand? Can you bring us up to speed generally on what scientists have successfully been able to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. The short of it — and I don’t think it’s too much of a spoiler — is that the answer to how to change a memory is to recall it. To remember the thing you’re trying to change.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One thing we’ve learned from decades of neuroscience research is that memory might feel like a video recording of the past that you can rewind again and again, but it’s much more dynamic — much more like a “Save As” file in a Word document. Memory is more flexible, changeable, dynamic than we expected, especially when we recall it. That’s when those changes begin to take place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The point being: you can let change happen naturally, or you can have a goal — perhaps change that restores health or well-being to an individual.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So to that end, you can do things like selectively target and erase specific memories?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In mice, yes. In flies, in mice, in rats — some of our model organisms — it’s now possible to find the brain cells that hold an individual memory and tinker with those cells. We can stimulate them to activate the memory, or quiet them to quiet the memory so it won’t pop back up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In humans, it’s much more difficult. We don’t know how to truly erase a memory in the human brain. But recalling one — that part is straightforward. I can say, “What did you have for dinner last night?” or “How was celebrating your last birthday?” and you’ll bring that memory online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it depends on the goal — whether it’s simply sharing a story, or actually trying to change the contents of a memory for therapeutic purposes. In mice, certainly possible. In humans, the psychology is trickier.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And as you know very well, it’s very possible to implant memories in mice. Can you tell us how you’ve been able to artificially activate a memory and implant a new or false memory in them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, absolutely. I started as a graduate student at MIT in 2010, joining Susumu Tonegawa’s lab. The lab had this overarching mission: understand the science of how we learn and remember the past.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I teamed up with my late friend and day-to-day mentor, Xu Liu, who was designing the genetic engineering tools needed to find specific memories in the rodent brain. Xu and I teamed up quickly, with the collective goal of finding the cells that hold a memory and then tricking just those cells to turn on, to test if that was enough to activate the memory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xu had developed tools to find these cells, and we were shocked that the first big experiment we did — in 2011 — worked. The gist was that Xu had developed tools to find the brain cells holding a memory. First we tricked them to glow green so we could literally see them. Then we activated those glowing cells using optogenetics — “opto” meaning light, “genetics” meaning genetics — so we could make those cells activatable with lasers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was our million-dollar experiment. When we found the cells for one memory and used lasers to nudge them awake, the memory came back. It was the first demonstration of artificially activating a specific memory in the rodent brain. And since then, the last decade has been nothing short of a revolution — activating, changing, erasing, suppressing memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And if I’m summarizing it correctly, basically: a mouse had a bad memory in one box. You put that mouse in a completely different box — no bad memories — and it’s happily scampering around. And then you activated the bad memory from the previous box, even though it hadn’t experienced it in the new one, and it froze in total fear?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s exactly what we did. We started by inducing that freezing behavior — like if you heard a loud noise right now, you’d lock in place for a few seconds before fight-or-flight kicks in. It’s a behavioral measure that tells us whether the animal is recalling that negative experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a safe environment, the mouse explores. But when we reactivate the negative memory, it stops and freezes for as long as we’re activating the cells. We wanted the most straightforward behavioral measure to test whether we were activating a memory — and once that worked, we could extend the work to more complex memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Let me invite listeners into the conversation. What are your questions about the science of memory manipulation? And would you ever do it — erase, implant, or change a memory if you could? What hopes do you have for these kinds of tools? What concerns?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stepping back a little bit, Steve, can you tell us how important our memories are to who we are and how we act? You’ve called memory nothing less than “the perpetual beating heart of life.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. To me, memory is simply what the brain does. And it’s amazing that no matter where you look in nature — algae, single-cell organisms, fruit flies, rodents, dogs, rabbits, humans — everywhere you see biology, you see memory. You see an organism soaking up experience, turning it into biologically meaningful change in the body and brain, and later accessing those changes to bring the memory back to life to make decisions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For humans, memory is the thing that threads and unifies our overall sense of being — our identity. Who we are today is the sum total of the memories and experiences that have sculpted us up to this moment. Memory is the beating heart of life, and in its absence, those features of identity become dramatically impaired very quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Can I ask what it was like when you realized those initial mouse experiments worked — that you were able to activate a memory and essentially implant one in a mouse’s brain in a space it had never experienced?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Ramirez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I was beside myself — but wildly nervous as a grad student. I relied on Xu to be my echo chamber, and I didn’t know how excited I should be. It was my first year at MIT, and I already had this doom-and-gloom feeling of, “What am I doing here? 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I sometimes tend to say in a million words what I could say in a hundred. Xu was the opposite — every word had purpose. He thought before he spoke. I admired that, and I learned so much from that disciplined way of thinking. We were very complementary — a dynamic duo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with neuroscientist Steve Ramirez, associate professor of psychological and brain sciences at Boston University. His new book is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Change a Memory: One Neuroscientist’s Quest to Alter the Past\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with him — and you — after the break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"order": 8
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"hyphenacion": {
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
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"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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"latino-usa": {
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"title": "Latino USA",
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"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
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"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"meta": {
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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},
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"tvDailyScheduleReducer": {},
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"tvPrimetimeScheduleReducer": {},
"tvMonthlyScheduleReducer": {},
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{
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}
]
},
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},
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},
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},
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}
}