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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 3 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California voters cast their ballots in key races across the state on Tuesday, with the race to succeed Gov. Gavin Newsom drawing a massive field of candidates. We’ll break down that race, in which Xavier Becerra and Tom Steyer led the pack of Democrats facing off against Republican frontrunner Steve Hilton, and look at results for the state’s Congressional primaries, including the race to succeed former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Join us for a recap of the results and what they mean going into November’s general election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Republican Steve Hilton is holding a narrow lead over Democrat Xavier Becerra, with Democrat Tom Steyer remaining hopeful as the vote count continues in one of California’s most competitive governors’ races in decades. Last night, Hilton liked his chances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Steve Hilton:\u003c/strong> It looks very much as if Californians really will have the chance to vote for change in November and take our state in a new direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For his part, Xavier Becerra — who gained a lifeline after the implosion of Eric Swalwell’s campaign — relished his comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Becerra:\u003c/strong> After all the exhausting ads are run, the pundits are spun, and the billionaires try to buy their way in — it’s the people, only the people, who get the last word. And tonight, the people of the great state of California and the greatest nation on Earth have spoken.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Joining me for analysis of this race, a key mayor’s race, and the role redistricting played in congressional races is KQED’s politics team — and you, our listeners. How are you feeling about the primary election results so far? Call us at 866-733-6786, email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Marisa Lagos is with us, along with Guy Marzorati, correspondents on KQED’s politics desk. Marisa also co-hosts \u003cem>Political Breakdown\u003c/em>. Late night for both of you — thank you for coming in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The final polls going into last night were pretty much showing things would shake out this way in the governor’s race, with Hilton and Becerra narrowly leading. Will this hold, Marisa? Give me your thoughts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> There are still millions of ballots to be counted, and there’s definitely still a path for Steyer to surge. He’ll need to do really well in the remaining returns, and some of the larger liberal cities that have a lot of votes outstanding are stronger territory for him. But it’s certainly not guaranteed. Given how close Becerra and Hilton have been, you could see a world where either of them gets knocked out. That said, Steyer hasn’t really moved past around 20%, so we’re still waiting for better data on which ballots are still out there. And I just want to caution people: there’s nothing conspiratorial about the pace of counting. We send everyone a mail-in ballot, and that process simply takes a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is Steyer underperforming, Guy, or is it too early to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> You could dive deep into some of these precinct results, and maybe he would have wanted stronger margins in the dense urban areas where he’s doing well — like San Francisco. But with perhaps half the ballots still left to count, it’s too early to dissect who’s over- or underperforming. We also don’t actually know the denominator — ballots postmarked by yesterday can still arrive and be counted. Election officials are sorting through which ballots are valid and which have issues. It’s a genuinely uncertain landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">That said, overall turnout looks pretty positive — about 22% right now. If that’s roughly the halfway point, we could approach 40% turnout. That doesn’t sound impressive, but governor primaries in recent history have been in the low thirties. So it does speak to real voter interest in this race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right — they can count ballots up to a week after Election Day, as long as they were postmarked by Election Day. And adding to that, Marisa, is the fact that Democrats appeared to hold onto their ballots longer than Republicans did. Based on what you’re seeing, do you think Democrats voted more strategically this time around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> A hundred percent. It was really interesting to watch in the final days — and now in the results. Lower-tier candidates like Katie Porter really fell off. She’d been hovering close to double digits, but in the returns so far she hasn’t hit 5%. So you did see a consolidation effect, which isn’t entirely surprising. This has been such an unusual race — it broke late for Becerra, you had the Swalwell situation, and you had all the candidates who didn’t run: Kamala Harris, Alex Padilla, Rob Bonta. Add to that the behavior of Democratic voters over the past decade, which has become more strategic and less purely emotional. Becerra probably felt like a safe choice. There was also a progressive surge around Steyer, but he faced a real challenge with the tension between his anti-billionaire message and the fact that he is himself a billionaire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One listener writes: \u003cem>“I know a number of Democratic voters who are not happy with what the Democrats have done in California, but they cannot stomach a governor who supports Trump. Why don’t Republicans run a more moderate candidate like Arnold Schwarzenegger? I think they could win easily.”\u003c/em> Could they, Guy — in a state where Democrats outnumber Republicans?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No, I don’t think they could. And it comes down to where Republican voters get their signals. Outside of President Trump, I’m not sure there’s any strong, clear bat signal for Republican voters in California. Hilton really moved up in this race after Trump endorsed him. And looking across several races, when Trump didn’t get involved or didn’t endorse, signals that used to carry weight for Republican voters really didn’t matter. In the insurance commissioner race, the Republican candidate endorsed by the state party saw voters split their support a dozen different ways. In another congressional race, Kevin Kiley — formerly Republican, now independent — had support from Mike Johnson and various Republican groups, but roughly 20% of the vote still went to a random Republican who ran no real campaign. The absence of a clear signal other than Trump really underscores how much his endorsement drives Republican voter behavior — not game theory about who might be more electable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just that they’re following Trump’s cue — they actually support Trump and his policies. There’s a very conservative vein running through the party’s base. When you go to a Republican convention, the party faithful are not interested in moderate candidates willing to reach across the aisle. They want the most conservative option. Hilton doing so well reflects less anything else than the fact that he’s aligned himself closely with Trump and his policies. He’s not necessarily as conservative as someone like Chad Bianco, but he sold that alignment to Republican voters convincingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right — if Trump had endorsed Bianco, Hilton would not have 28% of the vote right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Not at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> A couple of listener takes here. Eloise writes: \u003cem>“Steyer’s hit pieces on Becerra turned me off. I couldn’t stand the idea of his millions paying for an avalanche of that propaganda for five more months. I voted for Porter.”\u003c/em> And another listener writes: \u003cem>“I want Steyer as our next governor. He represents a progressive vision that protects our climate and environment. Becerra is a status quo candidate. Want more of the same old, same old? Javier is your guy. God forbid Steve Hilton gains any more traction — Californians can’t be that dumb.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So — if Hilton is in the November runoff, his chances of winning are extremely slim. But if it ends up being Becerra vs. Steyer, what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No idea. We’ve never seen this. It’s a political science professor’s dream scenario. How does a Democrat-vs.-Democrat general election for governor play out? Do the candidates pivot toward the center to court Republican votes? Do they assume Republicans simply won’t vote in a gubernatorial runoff and just double down on their pitches to Democratic voters? We really don’t know — except for one thing: it would be very expensive. Steyer would continue spending tens of millions of dollars, and the business interests that oppose him — PG&E, the realtors, the Chamber of Commerce — would likely spend heavily to make sure he doesn’t become governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Steyer did spend heavily in this race — around $200 million. We’ve had self-funded candidates before, like Meg Whitman. Is this another example of money not being enough to win, Marisa?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Money talks, but it’s not the only factor. In races getting a lot of attention, you can’t isolate spending from everything else. Becerra was far outspent by Steyer, but he still had the opportunity to introduce himself to voters — and ultimately drew major endorsements and independent expenditure support. It really depends on the district, the race, the individual circumstances. That said, if you have no money, you probably can’t compete at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos, politics correspondent at KQED and co-host of \u003cem>Political Breakdown\u003c/em>, and Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California politics and government desk. We want to hear from you — what are your reactions to last night’s primary results? Who did you vote for and why? Are you happy or disappointed with how your candidate is performing? What message did you want to send with your vote? Email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or post on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 3 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California voters cast their ballots in key races across the state on Tuesday, with the race to succeed Gov. Gavin Newsom drawing a massive field of candidates. We’ll break down that race, in which Xavier Becerra and Tom Steyer led the pack of Democrats facing off against Republican frontrunner Steve Hilton, and look at results for the state’s Congressional primaries, including the race to succeed former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Join us for a recap of the results and what they mean going into November’s general election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Republican Steve Hilton is holding a narrow lead over Democrat Xavier Becerra, with Democrat Tom Steyer remaining hopeful as the vote count continues in one of California’s most competitive governors’ races in decades. Last night, Hilton liked his chances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Steve Hilton:\u003c/strong> It looks very much as if Californians really will have the chance to vote for change in November and take our state in a new direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> For his part, Xavier Becerra — who gained a lifeline after the implosion of Eric Swalwell’s campaign — relished his comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Xavier Becerra:\u003c/strong> After all the exhausting ads are run, the pundits are spun, and the billionaires try to buy their way in — it’s the people, only the people, who get the last word. And tonight, the people of the great state of California and the greatest nation on Earth have spoken.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Joining me for analysis of this race, a key mayor’s race, and the role redistricting played in congressional races is KQED’s politics team — and you, our listeners. How are you feeling about the primary election results so far? Call us at 866-733-6786, email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, or find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Marisa Lagos is with us, along with Guy Marzorati, correspondents on KQED’s politics desk. Marisa also co-hosts \u003cem>Political Breakdown\u003c/em>. Late night for both of you — thank you for coming in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The final polls going into last night were pretty much showing things would shake out this way in the governor’s race, with Hilton and Becerra narrowly leading. Will this hold, Marisa? Give me your thoughts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> There are still millions of ballots to be counted, and there’s definitely still a path for Steyer to surge. He’ll need to do really well in the remaining returns, and some of the larger liberal cities that have a lot of votes outstanding are stronger territory for him. But it’s certainly not guaranteed. Given how close Becerra and Hilton have been, you could see a world where either of them gets knocked out. That said, Steyer hasn’t really moved past around 20%, so we’re still waiting for better data on which ballots are still out there. And I just want to caution people: there’s nothing conspiratorial about the pace of counting. We send everyone a mail-in ballot, and that process simply takes a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is Steyer underperforming, Guy, or is it too early to say?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> You could dive deep into some of these precinct results, and maybe he would have wanted stronger margins in the dense urban areas where he’s doing well — like San Francisco. But with perhaps half the ballots still left to count, it’s too early to dissect who’s over- or underperforming. We also don’t actually know the denominator — ballots postmarked by yesterday can still arrive and be counted. Election officials are sorting through which ballots are valid and which have issues. It’s a genuinely uncertain landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">That said, overall turnout looks pretty positive — about 22% right now. If that’s roughly the halfway point, we could approach 40% turnout. That doesn’t sound impressive, but governor primaries in recent history have been in the low thirties. So it does speak to real voter interest in this race.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right — they can count ballots up to a week after Election Day, as long as they were postmarked by Election Day. And adding to that, Marisa, is the fact that Democrats appeared to hold onto their ballots longer than Republicans did. Based on what you’re seeing, do you think Democrats voted more strategically this time around?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> A hundred percent. It was really interesting to watch in the final days — and now in the results. Lower-tier candidates like Katie Porter really fell off. She’d been hovering close to double digits, but in the returns so far she hasn’t hit 5%. So you did see a consolidation effect, which isn’t entirely surprising. This has been such an unusual race — it broke late for Becerra, you had the Swalwell situation, and you had all the candidates who didn’t run: Kamala Harris, Alex Padilla, Rob Bonta. Add to that the behavior of Democratic voters over the past decade, which has become more strategic and less purely emotional. Becerra probably felt like a safe choice. There was also a progressive surge around Steyer, but he faced a real challenge with the tension between his anti-billionaire message and the fact that he is himself a billionaire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> One listener writes: \u003cem>“I know a number of Democratic voters who are not happy with what the Democrats have done in California, but they cannot stomach a governor who supports Trump. Why don’t Republicans run a more moderate candidate like Arnold Schwarzenegger? I think they could win easily.”\u003c/em> Could they, Guy — in a state where Democrats outnumber Republicans?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No, I don’t think they could. And it comes down to where Republican voters get their signals. Outside of President Trump, I’m not sure there’s any strong, clear bat signal for Republican voters in California. Hilton really moved up in this race after Trump endorsed him. And looking across several races, when Trump didn’t get involved or didn’t endorse, signals that used to carry weight for Republican voters really didn’t matter. In the insurance commissioner race, the Republican candidate endorsed by the state party saw voters split their support a dozen different ways. In another congressional race, Kevin Kiley — formerly Republican, now independent — had support from Mike Johnson and various Republican groups, but roughly 20% of the vote still went to a random Republican who ran no real campaign. The absence of a clear signal other than Trump really underscores how much his endorsement drives Republican voter behavior — not game theory about who might be more electable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> And it’s not just that they’re following Trump’s cue — they actually support Trump and his policies. There’s a very conservative vein running through the party’s base. When you go to a Republican convention, the party faithful are not interested in moderate candidates willing to reach across the aisle. They want the most conservative option. Hilton doing so well reflects less anything else than the fact that he’s aligned himself closely with Trump and his policies. He’s not necessarily as conservative as someone like Chad Bianco, but he sold that alignment to Republican voters convincingly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> Right — if Trump had endorsed Bianco, Hilton would not have 28% of the vote right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Not at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> A couple of listener takes here. Eloise writes: \u003cem>“Steyer’s hit pieces on Becerra turned me off. I couldn’t stand the idea of his millions paying for an avalanche of that propaganda for five more months. I voted for Porter.”\u003c/em> And another listener writes: \u003cem>“I want Steyer as our next governor. He represents a progressive vision that protects our climate and environment. Becerra is a status quo candidate. Want more of the same old, same old? Javier is your guy. God forbid Steve Hilton gains any more traction — Californians can’t be that dumb.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">So — if Hilton is in the November runoff, his chances of winning are extremely slim. But if it ends up being Becerra vs. Steyer, what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati:\u003c/strong> No idea. We’ve never seen this. It’s a political science professor’s dream scenario. How does a Democrat-vs.-Democrat general election for governor play out? Do the candidates pivot toward the center to court Republican votes? Do they assume Republicans simply won’t vote in a gubernatorial runoff and just double down on their pitches to Democratic voters? We really don’t know — except for one thing: it would be very expensive. Steyer would continue spending tens of millions of dollars, and the business interests that oppose him — PG&E, the realtors, the Chamber of Commerce — would likely spend heavily to make sure he doesn’t become governor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Steyer did spend heavily in this race — around $200 million. We’ve had self-funded candidates before, like Meg Whitman. Is this another example of money not being enough to win, Marisa?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Marisa Lagos:\u003c/strong> Money talks, but it’s not the only factor. In races getting a lot of attention, you can’t isolate spending from everything else. Becerra was far outspent by Steyer, but he still had the opportunity to introduce himself to voters — and ultimately drew major endorsements and independent expenditure support. It really depends on the district, the race, the individual circumstances. That said, if you have no money, you probably can’t compete at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Marisa Lagos, politics correspondent at KQED and co-host of \u003cem>Political Breakdown\u003c/em>, and Guy Marzorati, correspondent on KQED’s California politics and government desk. We want to hear from you — what are your reactions to last night’s primary results? Who did you vote for and why? Are you happy or disappointed with how your candidate is performing? What message did you want to send with your vote? Email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or post on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 3 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland’s 911 system is perennially understaffed, frequently leading to long wait times for callers facing life and death emergencies or trying to report fires or crimes in progress. The problem has persisted for more than a decade, and we’ll talk to Oakland’s city auditor, an investigative reporter and a 911 dispatcher to explore why, despite a decade of audits and grand jury reports, Oakland’s emergency response system still lags behind national and state standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here’s the thing about 911. For us in the public, 911 has exactly one job: to pick up the phone as quickly as possible. That’s the deal. When you’re calling with a true emergency, every second matters. The national standard that’s often cited for 911 calls is that 90% of calls should be picked up within 15 seconds. The state of California made that a mandate, relying on the Office of Emergency Services to bring down the hammer on local jurisdictions that fall out of compliance. But while that’s the standard, many areas do not experience such quick pickup times — including, prominently around here, Oakland. Nearly a third of calls to Oakland’s 911 emergency dispatch in 2024 took more than a minute to answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here to talk about a big Type Investigations report for Reveal on why this is, we’re joined by Byard Duncan. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did you get into wanting to report on 911 response times — aside from being a resident of Oakland, where many of us know this is the case?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> Around late 2022, I went out for a run in my neighborhood. I live about three miles east of Lake Merritt. Immediately, I smelled something smoky. I rounded a corner and saw this enormous brush fire on 580. I could tell right away it was serious — it was moving quickly, the flames were really high. But I also noticed there were no emergency responders on the scene yet. So I thought, okay, this must have just started. I called 911. I remember standing on an overpass looking at the fire and getting what I recall as basically a customer-service-style hold message: \u003cem>Nobody’s available to pick up the phone right now, so just hang tight.\u003c/em> That was a moment for me. I didn’t know that could even happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Right. And you’re a journalist — an investigative reporter. The second you hit Google on this, you probably discovered that people have been worrying about this for a long time, that your experience was not yours alone but broadly shared. We’ll get into that in a second. But first, I think it helps to understand how these emergency call systems actually work. Until I started preparing for this show, I didn’t fully realize what a 911 system is. So — someone calls in, where does that call go, and why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> In Oakland’s dispatch center, there are two distinct sections. One is the call takers; the other is the dispatchers. Call takers pick up the calls. Dispatchers are responsible for sending first responders and communicating with them en route. Most 911 dispatchers do both jobs — in Oakland, they rotate between roles to stay fresh. A lot of big cities operate this way, with distinct call-taker shifts and dispatch shifts. Many smaller dispatch centers have one set of people doing both jobs simultaneously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And just to illustrate how fragmented this system is — if you happen to be on or near a freeway, your call would go to the California Highway Patrol?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> It depends, but yes — CHP has its own dispatch centers. There are actually 433 dispatch centers in California alone, and probably around 5,000 in the United States. There’s no federal agency overseeing them, so they have different standards, different personnel requirements, different training, different pay scales — all sorts of variation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. And on the national standard — it’s really set by essentially a private organization negotiating between fire departments and national emergency call center representatives. Were you able to figure out why there isn’t more coordination at the federal level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> The standard itself has actually changed several times in recent years. Currently, best practice is that 90% of calls must be picked up in 15 seconds or less. It used to be 95%. The organization you’re referring to — NENA, the National Emergency Number Association — brought it down to 90%, I believe in an effort to align with a fire department advocacy group’s standard. The rationale is fairly straightforward: when someone is having an emergency — a cardiac incident, a drowning, bleeding — it’s critical to act fast. With cardiac incidents specifically, administering CPR within the first minute can double or even triple someone’s chances of surviving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from your Reveal reporting — a situation that shows just how much these seconds can matter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP PLAYS]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> I was sitting on the couch right there, and suddenly I felt like a rush of something coming out of me. I just remember thinking, \u003cem>please don’t be blood. Please don’t be blood.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t. She runs to the bathroom and yells for her husband.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> I’m like, you call 911, I’ll call 911. And we’re both calling, and I remember at one point having both phones in my hand. No one was picking up, so I kept hanging up and calling back, hoping I’d get through to someone. I was like, where are the people who are supposed to pick up? Where are they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> Postpartum hemorrhages like Caitlin’s can be fatal. It’s critical to act fast. Eventually, her husband gets through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> Felt like every second counted because there was blood pouring out of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> Firefighters get there first. They stay with Caitlin and her husband until an ambulance arrives. Meanwhile, 911 operators start calling Caitlin’s phone back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta \u003cem>(voicemail)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> You’ve reached Caitlin Ditta. I can’t take your call right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>911 Dispatcher:\u003c/strong> Hi, this is 911. Someone called and hung up. If you have an emergency, call back at 777…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s some practical takeaways from that clip. Don’t call on two phones simultaneously. Don’t hang up and call again — because then dispatchers have to call you back, taking time away from answering new calls. And staying on the line is better than redialing. Is that the “news you can use” from this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> That’s exactly it. What Caitlin did — understandably — was hang up and call back when she couldn’t get through. That’s a kind of chicken-and-egg problem with Oakland’s 911: if you call and get a busy signal or hold message, you might assume you should try again, when in fact you should stay on the line. The net result is a staggering percentage of what are called \u003cem>abandoned calls\u003c/em>. According to Oakland’s 2025 911 data, something like 25% of 911 calls in 2024 were abandoned. We don’t know exactly why in every case, but I’d guess a large percentage were from people who hung up and redialed because no one answered quickly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">As for the freeway incident I witnessed — I learned in the course of this reporting that it’s actually not surprising I was put on hold. Freeway incidents are notorious for jamming 911 call volume, because dozens or even hundreds of drivers pass a scene and call in. From the dispatcher’s perspective, it’s a flood of calls about the same incident.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the long-term problems with Oakland’s 911 system, including delayed answers for many callers — and what can be done to fix them. We’re joined by investigative journalist Byard Duncan, whose story ran on Reveal and the Center for Investigative Reporting and Type Investigations. We’re also joined by two guests who have worked in and extensively studied Oakland’s 911 system: Antoinette Blue, a dispatcher for Oakland’s Emergency Communication Center. Welcome, Antoinette.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Antoinette Blue:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning, everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Oakland City Auditor Michael Houston. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael, over the past decade there have been two city audits of Oakland’s 911 system and two Alameda County grand jury reports — and pretty much all of them have reached the same conclusion: Oakland’s 911 service lags well behind state-mandated response times, with understaffing as the number one reason. Is that your understanding?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Yes, that continues to be a challenge. Our most recent audit covered January 2019 through December 2024, and vacant positions were a constant problem throughout. In our report, we noted vacancies reached as high as 25% at one point. That leads to reliance on overtime, burnout among dispatchers, and — most fundamentally — not enough people in the Emergency Communication Center at the right times to answer calls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Our own Tera Seiler reported on this same issue back in 2015 — and here we are, eleven years later. Why do you think it hasn’t been fixed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> This does predate my time at the city. But I think one thing we’ve learned is that it’s genuinely difficult to recruit and retain dispatchers — that’s a challenge jurisdictions across the country are grappling with. One thing I’m proud of from our audit is that we asked: given this persistent staffing challenge, what \u003cem>else\u003c/em> can be done? And what we found was significant unevenness in how quickly staff are able to answer calls. For instance, between 5:00 and 8:00 AM, performance is relatively strong — but after 8:00 AM, it deteriorates significantly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So it’s also about using data more strategically, not just filling vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In addition to getting the critical staff we need, using data to identify and address those gaps is essential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the problems with Oakland’s 911 system and how they reflect a national challenge. We’ve got Oakland City Auditor Michael Houston, dispatcher Antoinette Blue, and investigative journalist Byard Duncan. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 3 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland’s 911 system is perennially understaffed, frequently leading to long wait times for callers facing life and death emergencies or trying to report fires or crimes in progress. The problem has persisted for more than a decade, and we’ll talk to Oakland’s city auditor, an investigative reporter and a 911 dispatcher to explore why, despite a decade of audits and grand jury reports, Oakland’s emergency response system still lags behind national and state standards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here’s the thing about 911. For us in the public, 911 has exactly one job: to pick up the phone as quickly as possible. That’s the deal. When you’re calling with a true emergency, every second matters. The national standard that’s often cited for 911 calls is that 90% of calls should be picked up within 15 seconds. The state of California made that a mandate, relying on the Office of Emergency Services to bring down the hammer on local jurisdictions that fall out of compliance. But while that’s the standard, many areas do not experience such quick pickup times — including, prominently around here, Oakland. Nearly a third of calls to Oakland’s 911 emergency dispatch in 2024 took more than a minute to answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">Here to talk about a big Type Investigations report for Reveal on why this is, we’re joined by Byard Duncan. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did you get into wanting to report on 911 response times — aside from being a resident of Oakland, where many of us know this is the case?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> Around late 2022, I went out for a run in my neighborhood. I live about three miles east of Lake Merritt. Immediately, I smelled something smoky. I rounded a corner and saw this enormous brush fire on 580. I could tell right away it was serious — it was moving quickly, the flames were really high. But I also noticed there were no emergency responders on the scene yet. So I thought, okay, this must have just started. I called 911. I remember standing on an overpass looking at the fire and getting what I recall as basically a customer-service-style hold message: \u003cem>Nobody’s available to pick up the phone right now, so just hang tight.\u003c/em> That was a moment for me. I didn’t know that could even happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Right. And you’re a journalist — an investigative reporter. The second you hit Google on this, you probably discovered that people have been worrying about this for a long time, that your experience was not yours alone but broadly shared. We’ll get into that in a second. But first, I think it helps to understand how these emergency call systems actually work. Until I started preparing for this show, I didn’t fully realize what a 911 system is. So — someone calls in, where does that call go, and why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> In Oakland’s dispatch center, there are two distinct sections. One is the call takers; the other is the dispatchers. Call takers pick up the calls. Dispatchers are responsible for sending first responders and communicating with them en route. Most 911 dispatchers do both jobs — in Oakland, they rotate between roles to stay fresh. A lot of big cities operate this way, with distinct call-taker shifts and dispatch shifts. Many smaller dispatch centers have one set of people doing both jobs simultaneously.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And just to illustrate how fragmented this system is — if you happen to be on or near a freeway, your call would go to the California Highway Patrol?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> It depends, but yes — CHP has its own dispatch centers. There are actually 433 dispatch centers in California alone, and probably around 5,000 in the United States. There’s no federal agency overseeing them, so they have different standards, different personnel requirements, different training, different pay scales — all sorts of variation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Interesting. And on the national standard — it’s really set by essentially a private organization negotiating between fire departments and national emergency call center representatives. Were you able to figure out why there isn’t more coordination at the federal level?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> The standard itself has actually changed several times in recent years. Currently, best practice is that 90% of calls must be picked up in 15 seconds or less. It used to be 95%. The organization you’re referring to — NENA, the National Emergency Number Association — brought it down to 90%, I believe in an effort to align with a fire department advocacy group’s standard. The rationale is fairly straightforward: when someone is having an emergency — a cardiac incident, a drowning, bleeding — it’s critical to act fast. With cardiac incidents specifically, administering CPR within the first minute can double or even triple someone’s chances of surviving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s hear a clip from your Reveal reporting — a situation that shows just how much these seconds can matter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cem>[CLIP PLAYS]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> I was sitting on the couch right there, and suddenly I felt like a rush of something coming out of me. I just remember thinking, \u003cem>please don’t be blood. Please don’t be blood.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> It wasn’t. She runs to the bathroom and yells for her husband.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> I’m like, you call 911, I’ll call 911. And we’re both calling, and I remember at one point having both phones in my hand. No one was picking up, so I kept hanging up and calling back, hoping I’d get through to someone. I was like, where are the people who are supposed to pick up? Where are they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> Postpartum hemorrhages like Caitlin’s can be fatal. It’s critical to act fast. Eventually, her husband gets through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta:\u003c/strong> Felt like every second counted because there was blood pouring out of me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan \u003cem>(narration)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> Firefighters get there first. They stay with Caitlin and her husband until an ambulance arrives. Meanwhile, 911 operators start calling Caitlin’s phone back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Caitlin Ditta \u003cem>(voicemail)\u003c/em>:\u003c/strong> You’ve reached Caitlin Ditta. I can’t take your call right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>911 Dispatcher:\u003c/strong> Hi, this is 911. Someone called and hung up. If you have an emergency, call back at 777…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[END CLIP]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> There’s some practical takeaways from that clip. Don’t call on two phones simultaneously. Don’t hang up and call again — because then dispatchers have to call you back, taking time away from answering new calls. And staying on the line is better than redialing. Is that the “news you can use” from this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Byard Duncan:\u003c/strong> That’s exactly it. What Caitlin did — understandably — was hang up and call back when she couldn’t get through. That’s a kind of chicken-and-egg problem with Oakland’s 911: if you call and get a busy signal or hold message, you might assume you should try again, when in fact you should stay on the line. The net result is a staggering percentage of what are called \u003cem>abandoned calls\u003c/em>. According to Oakland’s 2025 911 data, something like 25% of 911 calls in 2024 were abandoned. We don’t know exactly why in every case, but I’d guess a large percentage were from people who hung up and redialed because no one answered quickly enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">As for the freeway incident I witnessed — I learned in the course of this reporting that it’s actually not surprising I was put on hold. Freeway incidents are notorious for jamming 911 call volume, because dozens or even hundreds of drivers pass a scene and call in. From the dispatcher’s perspective, it’s a flood of calls about the same incident.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the long-term problems with Oakland’s 911 system, including delayed answers for many callers — and what can be done to fix them. We’re joined by investigative journalist Byard Duncan, whose story ran on Reveal and the Center for Investigative Reporting and Type Investigations. We’re also joined by two guests who have worked in and extensively studied Oakland’s 911 system: Antoinette Blue, a dispatcher for Oakland’s Emergency Communication Center. Welcome, Antoinette.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Antoinette Blue:\u003c/strong> Hi. Good morning, everybody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Oakland City Auditor Michael Houston. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thank you for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Michael, over the past decade there have been two city audits of Oakland’s 911 system and two Alameda County grand jury reports — and pretty much all of them have reached the same conclusion: Oakland’s 911 service lags well behind state-mandated response times, with understaffing as the number one reason. Is that your understanding?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Yes, that continues to be a challenge. Our most recent audit covered January 2019 through December 2024, and vacant positions were a constant problem throughout. In our report, we noted vacancies reached as high as 25% at one point. That leads to reliance on overtime, burnout among dispatchers, and — most fundamentally — not enough people in the Emergency Communication Center at the right times to answer calls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Our own Tera Seiler reported on this same issue back in 2015 — and here we are, eleven years later. Why do you think it hasn’t been fixed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> This does predate my time at the city. But I think one thing we’ve learned is that it’s genuinely difficult to recruit and retain dispatchers — that’s a challenge jurisdictions across the country are grappling with. One thing I’m proud of from our audit is that we asked: given this persistent staffing challenge, what \u003cem>else\u003c/em> can be done? And what we found was significant unevenness in how quickly staff are able to answer calls. For instance, between 5:00 and 8:00 AM, performance is relatively strong — but after 8:00 AM, it deteriorates significantly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So it’s also about using data more strategically, not just filling vacancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Michael Houston:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In addition to getting the critical staff we need, using data to identify and address those gaps is essential.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the problems with Oakland’s 911 system and how they reflect a national challenge. We’ve got Oakland City Auditor Michael Houston, dispatcher Antoinette Blue, and investigative journalist Byard Duncan. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 2 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical letter focuses on safeguarding humanity amid the rise of artificial intelligence. In the letter, which is essentially a policy document from the Vatican, the pope urges tech companies and policymakers worldwide to place human and moral concerns over profit. Anthropic co-founder Chris Olah spoke at the pope’s release of his letter in Vatican City, signaling an intention of collaboration and dialogue, but Silicon Valley leaders more broadly seem skeptical of the guidance. Will the pope’s recommendations impact the development and deployment of A.I.?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">[ad fullwdith]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. For his first encyclical last week — a document considered one of the most important papal texts — Pope Leo the Fourteenth chose to focus on AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Pope Leo XIV (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen because this moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences, and indicating paths forward for humanity. Artificial intelligence already touches many areas of our lives and affects decisions that shape human coexistence. It is also dramatically changing how war is waged.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From Vatican City, the pope urged tech companies and policymakers worldwide to place morality and human dignity over profit. This hour, we look at how that message is being received in Silicon Valley and break down the pope’s guidance. Listeners, do you think the pope’s recommendations will have any effect on the development and deployment of AI? Joining me is Cade Metz, a technology reporter for The New York Times. Thanks so much for being with us, Cade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Kim Daniels, director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University. Kim, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Cade, you’ve covered technology for more than thirty years. How often do you get to write about the pope?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> I have to say, I think this is the first time, and it was very exciting. I grew up Catholic, and my mother — knowing that this has been my area of interest for so long — made jokes about me potentially covering this. And of course, it had to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What was her joke?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> As a teenager, I didn’t exactly love showing up to Catholic mass every Sunday. But as she points out, it was a great education, and I’m glad I can bring it to bear at this moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is an unusual intersection, that’s for sure. Kim, how does this kind of messaging fit with the Vatican’s broader history of encyclicals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> What Pope Leo is doing here is offering a people-first vision for AI, and that’s really at the center of two millennia of the Church’s history. How do we put human dignity at the center? How do we make sure we’re focusing on the most vulnerable among us and thinking about what it means to be a flourishing human being? For Pope Leo, this is part and parcel of what it means to be Catholic and to bring our faith into public life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And just remind us — what is an encyclical? It’s been described as one of the most important papal documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> An encyclical is a letter addressed to all Catholics and to all people of goodwill around the world. It’s not just an internal document. It’s an authoritative papal teaching that Catholics are meant to take seriously, but it’s also intended to be in dialogue with the world — and dialogue isn’t just speaking, it’s also listening. This is an effort to continue a conversation the Vatican and the Church have been involved in for a long time, and to bring the physical and institutional presence of a Church of 1.4 billion people — the most multicultural and multilingual institution in the world — to bear on one of the most important conversations we’re having right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that top-line message, Kim — putting humans first when it comes to AI and the importance of human dignity. Can you help us understand the core of Pope Leo’s message?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> In Catholic teaching, every person possesses inherent dignity — not because we’re useful or efficient or productive, but simply by virtue of being a person. Pope Leo identifies as what he calls “particularly insidious” an ideology suggesting that every person must justify or earn their own worth — that those who are more effective or optimized or efficient are somehow worth more. He says this assumption is built into too many AI systems right now, and we can’t follow through on that. We have to ensure that the human person — understood in all our limits and all our beauty and magnificence, but understood as having inherent dignity — is at the center of conversations about artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pope Leo chose the name Leo, and many have noted that his predecessor of the same name, in the late nineteenth century, also wrote an encyclical about the industrial revolution. Do you see this as one of those fundamentally era-disrupting moments, comparable to what the industrial revolution was?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> Very much so. Pope Leo was very intentional about the name he took. I was there in Saint Peter’s Square last year when he walked out on the balcony, and when Catholics heard “Pope Leo the Fourteenth,” we knew the reference back to Pope Leo the Thirteenth and his major document, \u003cem>Rerum Novarum\u003c/em>, which responded to the Industrial Revolution by insisting that even in the face of economic and social transformation, people had to come first. And Pope Leo, just two days after his election last year, said explicitly that he saw himself as called to respond to the new things of our time — the digital revolution and the development of artificial intelligence. Very intentional, and I think it’s a real contribution to that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you talk about what he means by the dignity of work, and why we need to remember that — not just the dignity of humanity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> The dignity of work is one of the central principles of Catholic social teaching. The idea is that work has inherent human dignity — it’s part of our creativity, part of us participating in the life of our world and our own human lives. It’s part of what it means to be human. What we do shapes who we are. Pope Leo is not against artificial intelligence or technology, but he says AI should empower and complement workers — not deskill them, not surveil them. We should always come back to the dignity inherent in what it means to be creative, to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What do you think of the pope’s message? Do you think it should have an effect on the development of AI? Are Pope Leo’s warnings resonating with you? Are you Catholic, or do you work in AI? You can email us at \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Cade, given everything Kim is describing — the core of Catholic teaching — were you surprised that the pope decided AI was the thing to weigh in on? Or do you think this really does rise to the level of something the pope should address?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> It not only rises to that level — he indicated from the very beginning of his papacy that this was a personal interest. In a way, we knew this was coming. It’s clearly important to him personally, but it’s also undeniably important for the Catholic Church to take a stand on. And it’s important not just for the Church, but for society writ large. Whether you’re Catholic or not, that notion that work is important to human dignity is undeniably true. This is how so many people live their lives — through the importance of their work. If you take away people’s work, how human are they really? It’s a question I ask myself all the time, covering this field. And that message is not one Silicon Valley has taken to heart — we could talk about that. But again, whether you’re Catholic or not, that message needs to be delivered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Kim, do you think this message will have an impact? I want to eventually dig in with Cade about what impact it might have in Silicon Valley, but broadly — what does it matter for the pope to weigh in on AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> I think it matters a great deal. Just look at what we’ve seen over these past few months — the unease developing among people, whether it’s students groaning at commencement speakers who mention AI, workers wondering how their jobs will be transformed, or parents wondering how their children’s education will change. There’s been a growing unease, and not just in this country. What Pope Leo does is bring first principles, a moral vocabulary, and a framework to the conversation. It’s distinctively Catholic in one sense, but as Cade pointed out, the ideas of human dignity, the dignity of work, and care for the vulnerable cross religious traditions — and resonate with people of no religious tradition at all. So I think it’ll have a tremendous impact. It’s a really important addition to the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listener Alex on Discord writes: \u003cem>“Various flavors of hardcore traditionalist ideologies are very strongly against AI for philosophical reasons far deeper than most of what you hear in the mainstream. It’s perhaps the single clearest point of agreement and potential alignment between the various wings of populist politics these days.”\u003c/em> What do you make of that, Kim? Do you think his analysis is right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> I think it’s true that there are many different visions of AI among people from different perspectives. One interesting thing about the Catholic Church, of course, is that it’s famously “here comes everybody” — a lot of different perspectives, people who are resistant to technology and people who embrace it. But we share core beliefs around human dignity and around what it means to be a flourishing human being. Yes, there are people who really reject technology. But Pope Leo is not rejecting it out of hand. This is not a Luddite document, or something very negative — in fact, he’s quite positive. He says technology exhibits our creativity. The point is that we have to be clear-eyed about it. Technology isn’t neutral, and we have to approach it with that clarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Kim Daniels, director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown and a contributor to \u003cem>America\u003c/em>, the Jesuit Review, and with Cade Metz, a technology reporter for The New York Times. Last week, he wrote a piece called “At the Epicenter of AI, Pope Leo’s Warnings Are Dismissed.” We’ll dig into how Silicon Valley leaders seem to be receiving the pope’s message in his first encyclical about the rise of artificial intelligence. More after the break. This is Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 2 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Pope Leo XIV’s first encyclical letter focuses on safeguarding humanity amid the rise of artificial intelligence. In the letter, which is essentially a policy document from the Vatican, the pope urges tech companies and policymakers worldwide to place human and moral concerns over profit. Anthropic co-founder Chris Olah spoke at the pope’s release of his letter in Vatican City, signaling an intention of collaboration and dialogue, but Silicon Valley leaders more broadly seem skeptical of the guidance. Will the pope’s recommendations impact the development and deployment of A.I.?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. For his first encyclical last week — a document considered one of the most important papal texts — Pope Leo the Fourteenth chose to focus on AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Pope Leo XIV (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen because this moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences, and indicating paths forward for humanity. Artificial intelligence already touches many areas of our lives and affects decisions that shape human coexistence. It is also dramatically changing how war is waged.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From Vatican City, the pope urged tech companies and policymakers worldwide to place morality and human dignity over profit. This hour, we look at how that message is being received in Silicon Valley and break down the pope’s guidance. Listeners, do you think the pope’s recommendations will have any effect on the development and deployment of AI? Joining me is Cade Metz, a technology reporter for The New York Times. Thanks so much for being with us, Cade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Also with us is Kim Daniels, director of the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University. Kim, really glad to have you with us too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Cade, you’ve covered technology for more than thirty years. How often do you get to write about the pope?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> I have to say, I think this is the first time, and it was very exciting. I grew up Catholic, and my mother — knowing that this has been my area of interest for so long — made jokes about me potentially covering this. And of course, it had to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What was her joke?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> As a teenager, I didn’t exactly love showing up to Catholic mass every Sunday. But as she points out, it was a great education, and I’m glad I can bring it to bear at this moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> It is an unusual intersection, that’s for sure. Kim, how does this kind of messaging fit with the Vatican’s broader history of encyclicals?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> What Pope Leo is doing here is offering a people-first vision for AI, and that’s really at the center of two millennia of the Church’s history. How do we put human dignity at the center? How do we make sure we’re focusing on the most vulnerable among us and thinking about what it means to be a flourishing human being? For Pope Leo, this is part and parcel of what it means to be Catholic and to bring our faith into public life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And just remind us — what is an encyclical? It’s been described as one of the most important papal documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> An encyclical is a letter addressed to all Catholics and to all people of goodwill around the world. It’s not just an internal document. It’s an authoritative papal teaching that Catholics are meant to take seriously, but it’s also intended to be in dialogue with the world — and dialogue isn’t just speaking, it’s also listening. This is an effort to continue a conversation the Vatican and the Church have been involved in for a long time, and to bring the physical and institutional presence of a Church of 1.4 billion people — the most multicultural and multilingual institution in the world — to bear on one of the most important conversations we’re having right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk about that top-line message, Kim — putting humans first when it comes to AI and the importance of human dignity. Can you help us understand the core of Pope Leo’s message?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> In Catholic teaching, every person possesses inherent dignity — not because we’re useful or efficient or productive, but simply by virtue of being a person. Pope Leo identifies as what he calls “particularly insidious” an ideology suggesting that every person must justify or earn their own worth — that those who are more effective or optimized or efficient are somehow worth more. He says this assumption is built into too many AI systems right now, and we can’t follow through on that. We have to ensure that the human person — understood in all our limits and all our beauty and magnificence, but understood as having inherent dignity — is at the center of conversations about artificial intelligence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Pope Leo chose the name Leo, and many have noted that his predecessor of the same name, in the late nineteenth century, also wrote an encyclical about the industrial revolution. Do you see this as one of those fundamentally era-disrupting moments, comparable to what the industrial revolution was?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> Very much so. Pope Leo was very intentional about the name he took. I was there in Saint Peter’s Square last year when he walked out on the balcony, and when Catholics heard “Pope Leo the Fourteenth,” we knew the reference back to Pope Leo the Thirteenth and his major document, \u003cem>Rerum Novarum\u003c/em>, which responded to the Industrial Revolution by insisting that even in the face of economic and social transformation, people had to come first. And Pope Leo, just two days after his election last year, said explicitly that he saw himself as called to respond to the new things of our time — the digital revolution and the development of artificial intelligence. Very intentional, and I think it’s a real contribution to that conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you talk about what he means by the dignity of work, and why we need to remember that — not just the dignity of humanity?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> The dignity of work is one of the central principles of Catholic social teaching. The idea is that work has inherent human dignity — it’s part of our creativity, part of us participating in the life of our world and our own human lives. It’s part of what it means to be human. What we do shapes who we are. Pope Leo is not against artificial intelligence or technology, but he says AI should empower and complement workers — not deskill them, not surveil them. We should always come back to the dignity inherent in what it means to be creative, to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What do you think of the pope’s message? Do you think it should have an effect on the development of AI? Are Pope Leo’s warnings resonating with you? Are you Catholic, or do you work in AI? You can email us at \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Cade, given everything Kim is describing — the core of Catholic teaching — were you surprised that the pope decided AI was the thing to weigh in on? Or do you think this really does rise to the level of something the pope should address?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Cade Metz:\u003c/strong> It not only rises to that level — he indicated from the very beginning of his papacy that this was a personal interest. In a way, we knew this was coming. It’s clearly important to him personally, but it’s also undeniably important for the Catholic Church to take a stand on. And it’s important not just for the Church, but for society writ large. Whether you’re Catholic or not, that notion that work is important to human dignity is undeniably true. This is how so many people live their lives — through the importance of their work. If you take away people’s work, how human are they really? It’s a question I ask myself all the time, covering this field. And that message is not one Silicon Valley has taken to heart — we could talk about that. But again, whether you’re Catholic or not, that message needs to be delivered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Kim, do you think this message will have an impact? I want to eventually dig in with Cade about what impact it might have in Silicon Valley, but broadly — what does it matter for the pope to weigh in on AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> I think it matters a great deal. Just look at what we’ve seen over these past few months — the unease developing among people, whether it’s students groaning at commencement speakers who mention AI, workers wondering how their jobs will be transformed, or parents wondering how their children’s education will change. There’s been a growing unease, and not just in this country. What Pope Leo does is bring first principles, a moral vocabulary, and a framework to the conversation. It’s distinctively Catholic in one sense, but as Cade pointed out, the ideas of human dignity, the dignity of work, and care for the vulnerable cross religious traditions — and resonate with people of no religious tradition at all. So I think it’ll have a tremendous impact. It’s a really important addition to the conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Listener Alex on Discord writes: \u003cem>“Various flavors of hardcore traditionalist ideologies are very strongly against AI for philosophical reasons far deeper than most of what you hear in the mainstream. It’s perhaps the single clearest point of agreement and potential alignment between the various wings of populist politics these days.”\u003c/em> What do you make of that, Kim? Do you think his analysis is right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal leading-[1.7]\">\u003cstrong>Kim Daniels:\u003c/strong> I think it’s true that there are many different visions of AI among people from different perspectives. One interesting thing about the Catholic Church, of course, is that it’s famously “here comes everybody” — a lot of different perspectives, people who are resistant to technology and people who embrace it. But we share core beliefs around human dignity and around what it means to be a flourishing human being. Yes, there are people who really reject technology. But Pope Leo is not rejecting it out of hand. This is not a Luddite document, or something very negative — in fact, he’s quite positive. He says technology exhibits our creativity. The point is that we have to be clear-eyed about it. Technology isn’t neutral, and we have to approach it with that clarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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},
"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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"link": "/radio/program/reveal",
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"rss": "http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"order": 16
},
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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