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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From hotels to fast food restaurants, more companies are luring consumers to sign up for loyalty programs in exchange for points, discounts and other deals. But according to two former FTC officials, loyalty programs have devolved into “data-harvesting machines” that track what we buy and even how much we’re willing to pay. And the financial benefits tend to fall far short of the initial promise. We talk to Sam A.A. Levine and Stephanie Nguyen about how loyalty programs exploit consumers, how California is fighting back and how we can stay alert to the pitfalls. Their recent paper is called “The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us with Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices.” What consumer loyalty programs do you use, and have you ever felt used… by them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"679\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"325\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"348\" data-end=\"355\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Chances are, as you’ve been holiday shopping, you’ve given away your personal information or joined a rewards program in exchange for a discount. Loyalty programs are everywhere, providing benefits for repeat customers or continued engagement, and they can feel like welcome relief in tight economic times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"891\">But according to my guests, they’ve also become data-harvesting machines, where companies watch us, sort us, and ultimately charge us not the same as everyone else, but the maximum price they think we’ll pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"893\" data-end=\"1290\">Sam Levine is senior fellow at the Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice at UC Berkeley Law School, and Stephanie Nguyen is senior fellow at Vanderbilt Policy Accelerator. They’re both former officials at the Federal Trade Commission under the Biden administration and authors of the paper \u003cem data-start=\"1190\" data-end=\"1287\">The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us With Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1292\" data-end=\"1323\">Sam Levine, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1322\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1349\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1387\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Stephanie Nguyen, also glad to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1498\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1469\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1618\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1513\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sam, I want to start with you. Can you remind us of the universe of loyalty programs that are out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1901\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1644\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Loyalty programs really are everywhere. They started in the airline industry — that’s where they’re probably most famous. Frequent flyer miles, maybe a few free trips. But now, every store I go into, I feel like I’m being asked to join a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1903\" data-end=\"2218\">I’m trying to check out, I’m in a rush, and they say, “Give me your phone number. Join our loyalty program.” This can be retail, hardware stores, department stores — you name it. Companies want us enrolled in these programs. And I think anyone who’s been shopping this holiday season has experienced the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2233\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And they really try to make it frictionless, right? They say, “Do it right now. The savings apply instantly. It’s free to start.” I imagine that’s why they’re so popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2757\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2436\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s so tempting. They’ll say all you need to do is enter a phone number and you get ten percent off right away. But one of the things we point out in the paper is that it’s not just your phone number you’re handing over. You’re often consenting to vast data collection that begins as soon as you give them permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2759\" data-end=\"2839\">So it looks really easy, but it sets you up for a lot of tracking down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"3030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"2854\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Stephanie, in your paper you talk about the evolution — or really the devolution — of these programs, meaning they’ve become more aggressive and manipulative over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3296\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3053\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think it’s important to start with the definition of a loyalty program. At a high level, it’s a system businesses use to keep customers coming back. They’ll do that through any means necessary — points, discounts, perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3298\" data-end=\"3538\">What we saw, after looking at dozens and dozens of loyalty programs, is what we describe as a three-part structure. The hook is where companies entice consumers with upfront benefits and discounts to attract them and keep them purchasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3540\" data-end=\"3818\">The hack is where they get your data. That data becomes the currency of their strategy and allows them to understand who you are — not just as someone in a broad demographic, but as a specific individual who just had a baby or who lives in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3820\" data-end=\"4020\">And the hike is the third piece. Companies can raise fees, cut benefits, or deploy coercive upselling tactics that essentially turn loyalty programs into a net cost for consumers instead of a benefit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4139\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4035\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you give us an example of how this plays out? I was particularly struck by your McDonald’s example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4470\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4162\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> McDonald’s, for the past ninety years, has offered a game called Monopoly — a paper-based peel-and-win game where you can win free Big Macs, fries, or even a million dollars or a Jeep Cherokee. They took a nine-year hiatus, and this year they brought it back with what they called a “modern digital spin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4472\" data-end=\"4723\">To play now, you have to download the app. You enter your peel codes into the app. McDonald’s has publicly said it currently has around 185 million active loyalty program users across markets, and it wants to increase that to 250 million active users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4766\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> If this strategy succeeds, the Monopoly game entices people to download the app and play for a chance at prizes. And if McDonald’s reaches that goal, it will have data on a quarter of a billion consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4975\" data-end=\"5149\">They’ve said they can infer things like intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes — all collected because you downloaded the app, lured by the chance to win prizes or free food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5164\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Sam, talk about that. What are they doing with those 250 million users? What exactly are they collecting about us to make those kinds of inferences?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5343\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> That’s part of the problem — we don’t really know. McDonald’s says on its website that when you join the loyalty program, they track psychological trends, predispositions, intelligence, and abilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5774\">Companies are using sophisticated data analysis systems, often powered by machine learning, to examine patterns — where we go, when we go, what we buy. Do I get a McMuffin every morning? Do I go late at night after drinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5776\" data-end=\"6008\">When companies can track tens of millions of people, they can combine all those data points and draw sophisticated inferences about income, preferences, weaknesses, and how much someone is willing to pay. The sky’s really the limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6023\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk more about how McDonald’s and other companies segment customers by willingness to pay — charging us right up to that limit. Are you saying that, for example, when ordering through DoorDash, people might see different prices for the same item?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6297\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Let me zoom out beyond McDonald’s and talk about the industry more broadly. What you’re describing is exactly right. Companies use loyalty programs to figure out when and how to nudge someone into buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6506\" data-end=\"6785\">McDonald’s found that before joining the loyalty program, people went about ten and a half times a year. After joining, that number jumped to twenty-six times a year. They’re cracking the code — figuring out what push notifications, games, or rewards get people into the store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6787\" data-end=\"7018\">We’ve seen this across industries. Delta Airlines, for example, talked on an investor call about wanting to engage in more personalized pricing. They described figuring out the maximum someone is willing to pay as the “holy grail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7033\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So this isn’t some distant future. This is already happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7121\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. For listeners in California, one thing we found useful is that state law allows you to request reports showing what data companies collect about you. Those reports often obscure more than they reveal, but they make clear just how vast the data collection is — including location data, device data, and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7445\" data-end=\"7605\">They also show how many third parties your data is shared or sold to. It can be eye-opening to see what’s really happening behind the promise of free discounts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is surveillance pricing legal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7860\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7677\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> As we say in law school — it depends. California attempted to pass an outright ban on surveillance pricing this year, but it didn’t pass. Other states are considering similar bans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7862\" data-end=\"8208\">That said, many pricing abuses are already illegal. False discounts, hard-to-cancel programs, or collecting more data than necessary can violate state and federal law. Our core point is that people shouldn’t have to choose between protecting their privacy and affording groceries — but that’s exactly the position many consumers are in right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8223\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What’s your reaction to companies using loyalty programs for surveillance pricing? What programs are you enrolled in, and have you ever felt manipulated by one? Or is there a loyalty program you actually like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8487\" data-end=\"8635\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8493\" data-end=\"8507\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8637\" data-end=\"8762\">We’re talking with Sam Levine and Stephanie Nguyen. We’ll have more with them — and with you — after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From hotels to fast food restaurants, more companies are luring consumers to sign up for loyalty programs in exchange for points, discounts and other deals. But according to two former FTC officials, loyalty programs have devolved into “data-harvesting machines” that track what we buy and even how much we’re willing to pay. And the financial benefits tend to fall far short of the initial promise. We talk to Sam A.A. Levine and Stephanie Nguyen about how loyalty programs exploit consumers, how California is fighting back and how we can stay alert to the pitfalls. Their recent paper is called “The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us with Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices.” What consumer loyalty programs do you use, and have you ever felt used… by them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"679\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"312\" data-end=\"325\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"348\" data-end=\"355\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Chances are, as you’ve been holiday shopping, you’ve given away your personal information or joined a rewards program in exchange for a discount. Loyalty programs are everywhere, providing benefits for repeat customers or continued engagement, and they can feel like welcome relief in tight economic times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"681\" data-end=\"891\">But according to my guests, they’ve also become data-harvesting machines, where companies watch us, sort us, and ultimately charge us not the same as everyone else, but the maximum price they think we’ll pay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"893\" data-end=\"1290\">Sam Levine is senior fellow at the Center for Consumer Law and Economic Justice at UC Berkeley Law School, and Stephanie Nguyen is senior fellow at Vanderbilt Policy Accelerator. They’re both former officials at the Federal Trade Commission under the Biden administration and authors of the paper \u003cem data-start=\"1190\" data-end=\"1287\">The Loyalty Trap: How Loyalty Programs Hook Us With Deals, Hack Our Brains, and Hike Our Prices\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1292\" data-end=\"1323\">Sam Levine, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1322\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1325\" data-end=\"1349\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1446\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1374\" data-end=\"1387\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Stephanie Nguyen, also glad to have you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1498\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1448\" data-end=\"1469\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1618\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1500\" data-end=\"1513\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Sam, I want to start with you. Can you remind us of the universe of loyalty programs that are out there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1901\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1620\" data-end=\"1644\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Loyalty programs really are everywhere. They started in the airline industry — that’s where they’re probably most famous. Frequent flyer miles, maybe a few free trips. But now, every store I go into, I feel like I’m being asked to join a loyalty program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1903\" data-end=\"2218\">I’m trying to check out, I’m in a rush, and they say, “Give me your phone number. Join our loyalty program.” This can be retail, hardware stores, department stores — you name it. Companies want us enrolled in these programs. And I think anyone who’s been shopping this holiday season has experienced the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2220\" data-end=\"2233\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And they really try to make it frictionless, right? They say, “Do it right now. The savings apply instantly. It’s free to start.” I imagine that’s why they’re so popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2757\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2412\" data-end=\"2436\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> It’s so tempting. They’ll say all you need to do is enter a phone number and you get ten percent off right away. But one of the things we point out in the paper is that it’s not just your phone number you’re handing over. You’re often consenting to vast data collection that begins as soon as you give them permission.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2759\" data-end=\"2839\">So it looks really easy, but it sets you up for a lot of tracking down the line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"3030\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2841\" data-end=\"2854\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Right. Stephanie, in your paper you talk about the evolution — or really the devolution — of these programs, meaning they’ve become more aggressive and manipulative over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3296\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3032\" data-end=\"3053\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> That’s right. And I think it’s important to start with the definition of a loyalty program. At a high level, it’s a system businesses use to keep customers coming back. They’ll do that through any means necessary — points, discounts, perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3298\" data-end=\"3538\">What we saw, after looking at dozens and dozens of loyalty programs, is what we describe as a three-part structure. The hook is where companies entice consumers with upfront benefits and discounts to attract them and keep them purchasing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3540\" data-end=\"3818\">The hack is where they get your data. That data becomes the currency of their strategy and allows them to understand who you are — not just as someone in a broad demographic, but as a specific individual who just had a baby or who lives in a suburban neighborhood in Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3820\" data-end=\"4020\">And the hike is the third piece. Companies can raise fees, cut benefits, or deploy coercive upselling tactics that essentially turn loyalty programs into a net cost for consumers instead of a benefit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4139\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4022\" data-end=\"4035\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Can you give us an example of how this plays out? I was particularly struck by your McDonald’s example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4470\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4141\" data-end=\"4162\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> McDonald’s, for the past ninety years, has offered a game called Monopoly — a paper-based peel-and-win game where you can win free Big Macs, fries, or even a million dollars or a Jeep Cherokee. They took a nine-year hiatus, and this year they brought it back with what they called a “modern digital spin.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4472\" data-end=\"4723\">To play now, you have to download the app. You enter your peel codes into the app. McDonald’s has publicly said it currently has around 185 million active loyalty program users across markets, and it wants to increase that to 250 million active users.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4743\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4725\" data-end=\"4738\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4745\" data-end=\"4766\">Stephanie Nguyen:\u003c/strong> If this strategy succeeds, the Monopoly game entices people to download the app and play for a chance at prizes. And if McDonald’s reaches that goal, it will have data on a quarter of a billion consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4975\" data-end=\"5149\">They’ve said they can infer things like intelligence, abilities, and aptitudes — all collected because you downloaded the app, lured by the chance to win prizes or free food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5317\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5151\" data-end=\"5164\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So, Sam, talk about that. What are they doing with those 250 million users? What exactly are they collecting about us to make those kinds of inferences?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5546\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5319\" data-end=\"5343\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> That’s part of the problem — we don’t really know. McDonald’s says on its website that when you join the loyalty program, they track psychological trends, predispositions, intelligence, and abilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5548\" data-end=\"5774\">Companies are using sophisticated data analysis systems, often powered by machine learning, to examine patterns — where we go, when we go, what we buy. Do I get a McMuffin every morning? Do I go late at night after drinking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5776\" data-end=\"6008\">When companies can track tens of millions of people, they can combine all those data points and draw sophisticated inferences about income, preferences, weaknesses, and how much someone is willing to pay. The sky’s really the limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6010\" data-end=\"6023\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Talk more about how McDonald’s and other companies segment customers by willingness to pay — charging us right up to that limit. Are you saying that, for example, when ordering through DoorDash, people might see different prices for the same item?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6273\" data-end=\"6297\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Let me zoom out beyond McDonald’s and talk about the industry more broadly. What you’re describing is exactly right. Companies use loyalty programs to figure out when and how to nudge someone into buying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6506\" data-end=\"6785\">McDonald’s found that before joining the loyalty program, people went about ten and a half times a year. After joining, that number jumped to twenty-six times a year. They’re cracking the code — figuring out what push notifications, games, or rewards get people into the store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6787\" data-end=\"7018\">We’ve seen this across industries. Delta Airlines, for example, talked on an investor call about wanting to engage in more personalized pricing. They described figuring out the maximum someone is willing to pay as the “holy grail.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7095\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7020\" data-end=\"7033\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So this isn’t some distant future. This is already happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7443\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7097\" data-end=\"7121\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. For listeners in California, one thing we found useful is that state law allows you to request reports showing what data companies collect about you. Those reports often obscure more than they reveal, but they make clear just how vast the data collection is — including location data, device data, and more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7445\" data-end=\"7605\">They also show how many third parties your data is shared or sold to. It can be eye-opening to see what’s really happening behind the promise of free discounts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7651\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7607\" data-end=\"7620\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Is surveillance pricing legal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7860\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7653\" data-end=\"7677\">Samuel A. A. Levine:\u003c/strong> As we say in law school — it depends. California attempted to pass an outright ban on surveillance pricing this year, but it didn’t pass. Other states are considering similar bans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7862\" data-end=\"8208\">That said, many pricing abuses are already illegal. False discounts, hard-to-cancel programs, or collecting more data than necessary can violate state and federal law. Our core point is that people shouldn’t have to choose between protecting their privacy and affording groceries — but that’s exactly the position many consumers are in right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8485\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8210\" data-end=\"8223\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to invite listeners into the conversation. What’s your reaction to companies using loyalty programs for surveillance pricing? What programs are you enrolled in, and have you ever felt manipulated by one? Or is there a loyalty program you actually like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8487\" data-end=\"8635\">Email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8493\" data-end=\"8507\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8637\" data-end=\"8762\">We’re talking with Sam Levine and Stephanie Nguyen. We’ll have more with them — and with you — after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In recent contract negotiations, Kaiser Permanente therapists asked for language to specify that artificial intelligence would not “replace” humans in mental health care, but the employer has so far refused. Kaiser already uses AI technology in mental health care to take notes and create summaries, but Kaiser therapists worry further use of the technology could usurp their jobs. We talk about the ways AI may be entering our mental health care system and how it could affect therapists and their patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"713\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"383\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"395\" data-end=\"402\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. What a strange world we live in. Our health care systems are now contemplating a near future where they might bring in AI to do some heavy lifting — even in mental health care. At least that’s how it sounds from recent negotiations between Kaiser therapists and the organization itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"896\">Kaiser can already use AI technology in mental health care to take notes and create summaries, but human therapists worry that further use of the technology could take their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"898\" data-end=\"1038\">Here to talk with us about this hinge moment in AI and health, we’re joined by April Dembosky, health correspondent with KQED News. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1084\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1059\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1086\" data-end=\"1218\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1086\" data-end=\"1106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’re also joined by Vanessa Coe, secretary-treasurer of the National Union of Healthcare Workers. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1220\" data-end=\"1271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1220\" data-end=\"1236\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1422\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1293\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, April, can you give us a quick overview of how AI plays a role in mental health care and how that’s evolved in recent years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1797\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1443\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think there are basically two main uses of AI right now in mental health care. One is on the administrative side. You mentioned AI note-taking — sometimes called digital scribes. We’ve seen this mainly on the medical side of health care so far, where doctors bring a cell phone into the appointment and record their interactions with patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"2051\">People tend to like this. It opens up the opportunity for doctors to make more eye contact and really listen, instead of staring at a computer and taking notes. Then the AI technology later summarizes the appointment and adds it to the medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2053\" data-end=\"2297\">Now we’re talking about whether — and to what extent — we should bring that into mental health care. There are therapists who are really excited about that, and some who are really concerned. Beyond that, there are therapeutic uses of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2299\" data-end=\"2448\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2299\" data-end=\"2319\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This seems to be the thing I’ve heard the most about — people kind of doing, I don’t know, budget therapy by talking to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2450\" data-end=\"2684\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2450\" data-end=\"2469\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Exactly. We’ve really seen the rise of this with commercial AI companions, where people are confiding in AI like a therapist. They’re seeking advice and mental health support — sometimes with pretty bad outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2686\" data-end=\"3097\">Beyond that, there are also clinical psychologists who are actively working to develop evidence-based, tested therapeutic AI chatbots. Those are still in development. There’s a lot of work being done, but there’s broad consensus right now that any use of those tools would be as an adjunct to human-based therapy and would require human oversight. How those may develop over the years — it’s all moving so fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3099\" data-end=\"3419\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3099\" data-end=\"3119\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. For those who might be thinking, “Wait, people are talking to chatbots as therapists?” — there was a study that came out recently showing that about half of current large language model or chatbot users have gone to one of these tools for psychological support. So we know this is happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3421\" data-end=\"3547\">Let’s talk about this specific battle at Kaiser. A crucial part of this story is the language involved. What’s at stake there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3549\" data-end=\"3866\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3549\" data-end=\"3568\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Kaiser therapists — the union of mental health workers at Kaiser — bargain a new contract with Kaiser every two to four years. I’ve covered several of these negotiations over the years. It’s usually about what you’d expect: wages, benefits, working conditions, patient protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4254\">This year, I was really surprised that one of the first sticking points in negotiations was AI. That was interesting because the sister union representing Southern California therapists had just ratified a contract in May. They secured a provision saying that any introduction of AI tools had to be used only to assist therapists, not replace them. Both sides agreed to that language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4256\" data-end=\"4399\">So when Northern California therapists went into bargaining this summer, they assumed they could secure the same provision. And Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4401\" data-end=\"4601\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4401\" data-end=\"4421\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Vanessa, talk to me about what Kaiser has said to you, or how they’re thinking about this. We have a statement from them, which I’ll read in a moment, but what’s your perspective?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4603\" data-end=\"4991\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4603\" data-end=\"4619\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Sure. What Kaiser is telling us is that they’re refusing to accept any language that would stop them from deploying technology in a way that could replace therapists. At the bargaining table, they’ve said they want flexibility to dramatically increase the use of AI protocols and potentially use those protocols to replace therapists. That’s what we’ve continued to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4993\" data-end=\"5055\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4993\" data-end=\"5013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you see any potential for these tools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5073\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re not opposed to technology enhancing the quality of patient care. But we already have major concerns. Kaiser has already started implementing AI in its behavioral health system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5260\" data-end=\"5542\">Right now, when patients reach out for mental health care, they’re no longer guaranteed to be triaged by a therapist trained to ask the right questions and understand the nuance and complexity of patient responses. Instead, people get a prompt, and the AI decides their next step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5544\" data-end=\"5756\">Our members are telling us — and they’re telling Kaiser — that they’re seeing patients who should have been seen right away, or who were assigned to the wrong level or specialty of care. That’s really concerning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5758\" data-end=\"6096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5758\" data-end=\"5778\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Kaiser gave this statement to April, saying these tools, quote, “hold significant potential to benefit health care by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6098\" data-end=\"6359\">April, when I read that, it feels like part of this is about access. Mental health care can be really hard to find, especially on the timelines people need. Are you seeing that argument in this space — that even imperfect AI might be better than the status quo?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6361\" data-end=\"6726\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6361\" data-end=\"6380\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Across the industry, there’s an incredible shortage of mental health providers. Demand is huge, and there aren’t enough services to go around. Kaiser has been dealing with this for more than a decade. They’ve been cited and fined by state regulators multiple times for having excessively long wait times — historically four to six weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6728\" data-end=\"7033\">Kaiser has tried contracting with outside networks of therapists to get people into care sooner. And when you look at administrative uses of AI, therapists can spend two to three hours a day just catching up on notes. I’ve heard people call it “pajama time” — work you do after putting your kids to bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7035\" data-end=\"7248\">So Kaiser sees an opportunity: if AI could save therapists two to three hours a day on paperwork, that time could potentially be used to see more patients. You can see how they view this as a way to expand access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7250\" data-end=\"7349\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7250\" data-end=\"7270\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Vanessa, what kind of guardrails would you like to see around this technology?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7351\" data-end=\"7669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7351\" data-end=\"7367\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re asking that Kaiser consult therapists when implementing any kind of AI. They should talk to the people actually providing the care. We want implementation to be informed by clinicians, evidence-based, and thoughtful — not centered on efficiency or cost, but on what’s actually good for patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7671\" data-end=\"7762\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7671\" data-end=\"7691\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about privacy implications? How is the union thinking about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7764\" data-end=\"7966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7764\" data-end=\"7780\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re definitely concerned about what’s being recorded, where that data lives, what happens to it, and how AI interprets and outputs that information. Those are serious concerns for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7968\" data-end=\"8075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7968\" data-end=\"7988\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Are these tools being built in-house, or is Kaiser contracting with outside companies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8077\" data-end=\"8117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8077\" data-end=\"8093\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re not totally sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8119\" data-end=\"8192\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8119\" data-end=\"8139\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which makes it harder to assess those privacy risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8194\" data-end=\"8351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8194\" data-end=\"8210\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Exactly. We’re also really concerned about the use of chatbots as a form of therapy. When we talk about guardrails, that’s part of it too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8353\" data-end=\"8668\">Right now, many people can’t access consistent therapy through Kaiser, so they’re paying out of pocket — sometimes two hundred dollars a session. Our concern isn’t that there’s a shortage of therapists overall in this state. It’s that there’s a refusal to reimburse fairly and provide adequate working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8670\" data-end=\"8883\">If we want quality therapy, we need working conditions that make it possible. And Kaiser has sixty-seven billion dollars in reserves. They could be making better decisions around human-centered mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8885\" data-end=\"9093\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8885\" data-end=\"8905\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve been talking about the ways AI may be entering our health care system. Vanessa Coe is secretary-treasurer of the National Union of Healthcare Workers. Thanks so much for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9095\" data-end=\"9123\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9095\" data-end=\"9111\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> No problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9347\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9145\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by April Dembosky, health correspondent with KQED News. And we want to hear from you. Are you a mental health provider? Are you using AI in your work? How are you thinking about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9349\" data-end=\"9431\">Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9404\" data-end=\"9418\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In recent contract negotiations, Kaiser Permanente therapists asked for language to specify that artificial intelligence would not “replace” humans in mental health care, but the employer has so far refused. Kaiser already uses AI technology in mental health care to take notes and create summaries, but Kaiser therapists worry further use of the technology could usurp their jobs. We talk about the ways AI may be entering our mental health care system and how it could affect therapists and their patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"713\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"363\" data-end=\"383\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"395\" data-end=\"402\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. What a strange world we live in. Our health care systems are now contemplating a near future where they might bring in AI to do some heavy lifting — even in mental health care. At least that’s how it sounds from recent negotiations between Kaiser therapists and the organization itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"896\">Kaiser can already use AI technology in mental health care to take notes and create summaries, but human therapists worry that further use of the technology could take their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"898\" data-end=\"1038\">Here to talk with us about this hinge moment in AI and health, we’re joined by April Dembosky, health correspondent with KQED News. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1084\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1040\" data-end=\"1059\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1086\" data-end=\"1218\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1086\" data-end=\"1106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’re also joined by Vanessa Coe, secretary-treasurer of the National Union of Healthcare Workers. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1220\" data-end=\"1271\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1220\" data-end=\"1236\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning, everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1422\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1273\" data-end=\"1293\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, April, can you give us a quick overview of how AI plays a role in mental health care and how that’s evolved in recent years?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1797\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1443\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Sure. I think there are basically two main uses of AI right now in mental health care. One is on the administrative side. You mentioned AI note-taking — sometimes called digital scribes. We’ve seen this mainly on the medical side of health care so far, where doctors bring a cell phone into the appointment and record their interactions with patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"2051\">People tend to like this. It opens up the opportunity for doctors to make more eye contact and really listen, instead of staring at a computer and taking notes. Then the AI technology later summarizes the appointment and adds it to the medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2053\" data-end=\"2297\">Now we’re talking about whether — and to what extent — we should bring that into mental health care. There are therapists who are really excited about that, and some who are really concerned. Beyond that, there are therapeutic uses of chatbots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2299\" data-end=\"2448\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2299\" data-end=\"2319\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This seems to be the thing I’ve heard the most about — people kind of doing, I don’t know, budget therapy by talking to ChatGPT.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2450\" data-end=\"2684\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2450\" data-end=\"2469\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Exactly. We’ve really seen the rise of this with commercial AI companions, where people are confiding in AI like a therapist. They’re seeking advice and mental health support — sometimes with pretty bad outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2686\" data-end=\"3097\">Beyond that, there are also clinical psychologists who are actively working to develop evidence-based, tested therapeutic AI chatbots. Those are still in development. There’s a lot of work being done, but there’s broad consensus right now that any use of those tools would be as an adjunct to human-based therapy and would require human oversight. How those may develop over the years — it’s all moving so fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3099\" data-end=\"3419\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3099\" data-end=\"3119\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. For those who might be thinking, “Wait, people are talking to chatbots as therapists?” — there was a study that came out recently showing that about half of current large language model or chatbot users have gone to one of these tools for psychological support. So we know this is happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3421\" data-end=\"3547\">Let’s talk about this specific battle at Kaiser. A crucial part of this story is the language involved. What’s at stake there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3549\" data-end=\"3866\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3549\" data-end=\"3568\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> That’s right. Kaiser therapists — the union of mental health workers at Kaiser — bargain a new contract with Kaiser every two to four years. I’ve covered several of these negotiations over the years. It’s usually about what you’d expect: wages, benefits, working conditions, patient protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4254\">This year, I was really surprised that one of the first sticking points in negotiations was AI. That was interesting because the sister union representing Southern California therapists had just ratified a contract in May. They secured a provision saying that any introduction of AI tools had to be used only to assist therapists, not replace them. Both sides agreed to that language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4256\" data-end=\"4399\">So when Northern California therapists went into bargaining this summer, they assumed they could secure the same provision. And Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4401\" data-end=\"4601\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4401\" data-end=\"4421\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Vanessa, talk to me about what Kaiser has said to you, or how they’re thinking about this. We have a statement from them, which I’ll read in a moment, but what’s your perspective?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4603\" data-end=\"4991\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4603\" data-end=\"4619\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Sure. What Kaiser is telling us is that they’re refusing to accept any language that would stop them from deploying technology in a way that could replace therapists. At the bargaining table, they’ve said they want flexibility to dramatically increase the use of AI protocols and potentially use those protocols to replace therapists. That’s what we’ve continued to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4993\" data-end=\"5055\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4993\" data-end=\"5013\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Do you see any potential for these tools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5057\" data-end=\"5073\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re not opposed to technology enhancing the quality of patient care. But we already have major concerns. Kaiser has already started implementing AI in its behavioral health system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5260\" data-end=\"5542\">Right now, when patients reach out for mental health care, they’re no longer guaranteed to be triaged by a therapist trained to ask the right questions and understand the nuance and complexity of patient responses. Instead, people get a prompt, and the AI decides their next step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5544\" data-end=\"5756\">Our members are telling us — and they’re telling Kaiser — that they’re seeing patients who should have been seen right away, or who were assigned to the wrong level or specialty of care. That’s really concerning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5758\" data-end=\"6096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5758\" data-end=\"5778\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Kaiser gave this statement to April, saying these tools, quote, “hold significant potential to benefit health care by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6098\" data-end=\"6359\">April, when I read that, it feels like part of this is about access. Mental health care can be really hard to find, especially on the timelines people need. Are you seeing that argument in this space — that even imperfect AI might be better than the status quo?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6361\" data-end=\"6726\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6361\" data-end=\"6380\">April Dembosky:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Across the industry, there’s an incredible shortage of mental health providers. Demand is huge, and there aren’t enough services to go around. Kaiser has been dealing with this for more than a decade. They’ve been cited and fined by state regulators multiple times for having excessively long wait times — historically four to six weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6728\" data-end=\"7033\">Kaiser has tried contracting with outside networks of therapists to get people into care sooner. And when you look at administrative uses of AI, therapists can spend two to three hours a day just catching up on notes. I’ve heard people call it “pajama time” — work you do after putting your kids to bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7035\" data-end=\"7248\">So Kaiser sees an opportunity: if AI could save therapists two to three hours a day on paperwork, that time could potentially be used to see more patients. You can see how they view this as a way to expand access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7250\" data-end=\"7349\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7250\" data-end=\"7270\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Vanessa, what kind of guardrails would you like to see around this technology?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7351\" data-end=\"7669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7351\" data-end=\"7367\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re asking that Kaiser consult therapists when implementing any kind of AI. They should talk to the people actually providing the care. We want implementation to be informed by clinicians, evidence-based, and thoughtful — not centered on efficiency or cost, but on what’s actually good for patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7671\" data-end=\"7762\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7671\" data-end=\"7691\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about privacy implications? How is the union thinking about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7764\" data-end=\"7966\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7764\" data-end=\"7780\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re definitely concerned about what’s being recorded, where that data lives, what happens to it, and how AI interprets and outputs that information. Those are serious concerns for us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7968\" data-end=\"8075\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7968\" data-end=\"7988\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Are these tools being built in-house, or is Kaiser contracting with outside companies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8077\" data-end=\"8117\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8077\" data-end=\"8093\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> We’re not totally sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8119\" data-end=\"8192\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8119\" data-end=\"8139\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which makes it harder to assess those privacy risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8194\" data-end=\"8351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8194\" data-end=\"8210\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> Exactly. We’re also really concerned about the use of chatbots as a form of therapy. When we talk about guardrails, that’s part of it too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8353\" data-end=\"8668\">Right now, many people can’t access consistent therapy through Kaiser, so they’re paying out of pocket — sometimes two hundred dollars a session. Our concern isn’t that there’s a shortage of therapists overall in this state. It’s that there’s a refusal to reimburse fairly and provide adequate working conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8670\" data-end=\"8883\">If we want quality therapy, we need working conditions that make it possible. And Kaiser has sixty-seven billion dollars in reserves. They could be making better decisions around human-centered mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8885\" data-end=\"9093\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8885\" data-end=\"8905\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve been talking about the ways AI may be entering our health care system. Vanessa Coe is secretary-treasurer of the National Union of Healthcare Workers. Thanks so much for joining us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9095\" data-end=\"9123\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9095\" data-end=\"9111\">Vanessa Coe:\u003c/strong> No problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9347\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9125\" data-end=\"9145\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re also joined by April Dembosky, health correspondent with KQED News. And we want to hear from you. Are you a mental health provider? Are you using AI in your work? How are you thinking about it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9349\" data-end=\"9431\">Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9404\" data-end=\"9418\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. 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Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"soldout": {
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"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
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