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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, January 22 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Russia’s war in Ukraine has orphaned some 2000 Ukrainian children, leaving them with physical and psychological wounds and adult responsibilities beyond their years. Journalist Anna Nemtsova \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070573/a-generation-orphaned-by-war-ukrainian-children-grow-up-amid-loss-and-recovery\">interviewed orphaned children across Ukraine\u003c/a>, many of whom witnessed a parent being killed by Russian forces. She also looked at the impacts felt by Russian youth growing up surrounded by violence. We talk to Nemtsova about the harms she says could last a generation. We’ll also talk about the trajectory of the nearly four-year war with former Ukraine ambassador Steve Pifer, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and President Trump prepare to meet Thursday at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"488\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Ukraine’s President Zelensky made a strongly worded appeal for more help from his European allies in Davos, as a U.S.-triggered crisis over Greenland diverts Europe’s attention away from Ukraine. Russian attacks on the power grid have left thousands in Kyiv and beyond without heat amid an especially brutal winter. The UN’s human rights chief called the targeting of civilian energy infrastructure cruel and a breach of the rules of war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"490\" data-end=\"748\">As Russia’s attack on Ukraine reaches the four-year mark next month, we turn to look at its impact on Ukraine’s children. Journalist Anna Nemtsova has interviewed kids and teens across Ukraine orphaned by the war and joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"732\" data-end=\"739\">Forum\u003c/em>, Anna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"750\" data-end=\"781\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"750\" data-end=\"768\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"783\" data-end=\"978\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"783\" data-end=\"796\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> In many cases, the children you interviewed actually witnessed their parents’ deaths, as was the case with Alina Sotosco. Can you tell us what happened to her in November of 2024?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"980\" data-end=\"1225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"980\" data-end=\"998\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Alina was together with her mother, visiting her grandmother in Kherson, a southern city on the Black Sea. They were hiding from the bombing that day. There were nine strikes on Kherson, and they were hiding in the bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1227\" data-end=\"1555\">During the explosion, there was a group of people hiding in the bathroom, and a missile hit nearby, near their building. They were all wounded with shrapnel. Alina saw that her mother was still alive, and she covered her mother with her own body during the second explosion, without realizing that her mother was already dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1557\" data-end=\"1688\">Alina was wounded in her legs and in her arms with shrapnel, and she was undergoing multiple surgeries after she lost her mother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1690\" data-end=\"1759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1690\" data-end=\"1703\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How was she doing when you saw her? How is she today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1779\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> She was a quiet teenage girl. She was fourteen when her mother was killed, and she turned sixteen when we met with her. She was shy. She didn’t want to talk about that awful day in November 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"2288\">She had dyed her hair purple, and she told us about the heavy music she was listening to. She liked music. Otherwise, she couldn’t walk, and right now she’s expecting one more surgery on her legs. She’s dreaming of walking again. And one day, maybe, she’s dreaming of visiting her hometown on the Black Sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2290\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2290\" data-end=\"2303\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I understand that she’s resisted talking to a psychologist or having psychological help. What have you learned about why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2447\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Oh, well, there was no clear answer. She was not ready. When we interviewed psychologists and rehabilitologists, doctors at the Okhmatdyt Hospital, they said that children need time before they’re ready to talk about what happened to them or to their parents — about their loss.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2730\" data-end=\"2954\">So psychologists and doctors are there for the kids as soon as they’re ready. Before that, they try to entertain them. They invite musicians to the hospital. They take kids out on field trips, play with them, educate them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2956\" data-end=\"3276\">With Alina, it was difficult because she was very much inside, you know, with her own pain. She’s an introvert, she said. She wrote “loser” on her cast and then corrected one letter, crossed it out, and wrote “lover.” So she had a kind of dark sense of humor. She said, yes, I like music — but the heavier, the better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3417\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3291\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What have the experts or doctors you’ve spoken to said about the recovery and rehabilitation that children like Alina face?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3419\" data-end=\"3589\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3419\" data-end=\"3437\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> A long time — for Alina, it’s a long road. She was severely wounded, and she’s sixteen. You know, it’s hard to go through surgeries without your mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3591\" data-end=\"3806\">We also interviewed Yulia and Katia. Katia was only thirteen when she witnessed her mother’s death in the bombing of Kramatorsk in 2022. She was in a wheelchair for a while, and she couldn’t really talk for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3808\" data-end=\"4071\">Now, you know, three or four years later, these kids feel much better. Time heals, they say. They still don’t like to talk about that tragic day, but Katia is studying design at a college in Kyiv, and Yulia spends days playing Roblox and going to school online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4073\" data-end=\"4329\">She likes Roblox, and she asked us to pass along a thank you to the Roblox developers in California. She said, you know, without Roblox, I wouldn’t have had friends. On the days of violence, when she could not go to school, she played her favorite games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4331\" data-end=\"4659\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4331\" data-end=\"4344\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So Katia and Yulia, as you say, are sisters who were orphaned by their mother’s death in 2022, a couple years before Alina. But it sounds like their experiences are representative of other experiences among Ukraine’s children. How many Ukrainian kids have been orphaned by this war? What are the estimates?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4661\" data-end=\"4869\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4661\" data-end=\"4679\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> There is a group containing children orphaned by the war called SOS Children’s Villages. They are talking about about 2,000 children — about 2,000 children who’ve lost one or two parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4871\" data-end=\"5068\">We try to report stories to figure out how children do after they lose their parents, how they move on. All the children we interviewed were talented. Some like to paint. Some like to play music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5330\">We interviewed an amazing teenager who adopted, more or less, four of his brothers and sisters when their mother was killed in the Donetsk region. He moved them to Uzhhorod. Being eighteen years old, he was all of a sudden responsible for four more children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5332\" data-end=\"5651\">They are all talented. They play music. They sing. They all think of their mother still, whom they adore. She was a very, very good mother and an angel, he says — our character. He works two or three jobs to be able to provide for his siblings, and they’re all very well behaved — a good family, a good, solid family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5653\" data-end=\"5945\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5653\" data-end=\"5666\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Anna Nemtsova, Eastern Europe correspondent for \u003cem data-start=\"5734\" data-end=\"5751\">The Daily Beast\u003c/em> and a contributing writer to \u003cem data-start=\"5781\" data-end=\"5795\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about her new piece for KQED, which is up today on our website: “A Generation Orphaned by War: Ukrainian Children Grow Up Amid Loss and Recovery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5947\" data-end=\"6192\">We’re talking about the impact of Russia’s war on Ukraine’s children. Anna has spoken to some of the thousands of kids who’ve been orphaned or wounded or displaced or thrust, as she just described, into adult roles as caregivers and witnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6194\" data-end=\"6499\">Listeners, what are your thoughts and questions for Anna on the effects of losing a parent to violence and war? Perhaps you’re a survivor of war yourself or have a connection to Ukraine. How are you reflecting on nearly four years of Russia’s war on Ukraine and its impact? How do you think it will end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6501\" data-end=\"6651\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6515\" data-end=\"6529\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786 — 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6852\">You were talking about a young man who ended up taking on the adult role of caring for his siblings. Is this Vyacheslav Yalov? And if it is, could you tell us his story in a little bit more detail?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6854\" data-end=\"7096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6854\" data-end=\"6872\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Vyacheslav just turned eighteen. A few days before, he witnessed his mother’s death. He cried every time he talked about his mother, but he made the decision to become a foster parent for four of his brothers and sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7098\" data-end=\"7300\">He evacuated his siblings to Uzhhorod in western Ukraine and established his life there, working as an aide for a local politician and thinking of becoming a politician himself. He has different jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7302\" data-end=\"7592\">When my colleagues — Ukrainian journalists I teamed up with to report on this project — first talked with him on the phone, they were in tears. They said he was so pure and genuine. What was unbelievable to them was how young he was to become a parent to so many children — four children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7594\" data-end=\"7739\">That tragedy made him grow up quicker. He had to move on. He had to take care of his siblings, and that was his biggest responsibility in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7741\" data-end=\"7917\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7741\" data-end=\"7754\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I understand he initially experienced two court denials in his bid to become the parent of his siblings, but he kept fighting and eventually got them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7919\" data-end=\"8112\">There’s one detail in your piece that really struck me. You wrote that after his siblings go to bed, he allows himself to feel the full weight of his grief — that he doesn’t want them to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8114\" data-end=\"8331\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8114\" data-end=\"8132\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Well, he’s a fatherly figure now — a strong, adult father, he’s supposed to be. But there are videos of him online crying when he talks about his mom. I’m sure his siblings have seen those videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8333\" data-end=\"8494\">He’s a very light, warm, genuine young man, but he misses his mom greatly still, so many years later. He’s trying to move on, but missing her every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8496\" data-end=\"8699\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8496\" data-end=\"8509\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The quote is, “I put the children to bed, go out onto the balcony, and sob with tears that I can’t describe to you. Sometimes I don’t understand what to do next, but I keep trying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8701\" data-end=\"8935\">We’re talking about the impact of Russia’s war in Ukraine on children and young adults with Anna Nemtsova. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, January 22 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Russia’s war in Ukraine has orphaned some 2000 Ukrainian children, leaving them with physical and psychological wounds and adult responsibilities beyond their years. Journalist Anna Nemtsova \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12070573/a-generation-orphaned-by-war-ukrainian-children-grow-up-amid-loss-and-recovery\">interviewed orphaned children across Ukraine\u003c/a>, many of whom witnessed a parent being killed by Russian forces. She also looked at the impacts felt by Russian youth growing up surrounded by violence. We talk to Nemtsova about the harms she says could last a generation. We’ll also talk about the trajectory of the nearly four-year war with former Ukraine ambassador Steve Pifer, as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and President Trump prepare to meet Thursday at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"488\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Ukraine’s President Zelensky made a strongly worded appeal for more help from his European allies in Davos, as a U.S.-triggered crisis over Greenland diverts Europe’s attention away from Ukraine. Russian attacks on the power grid have left thousands in Kyiv and beyond without heat amid an especially brutal winter. The UN’s human rights chief called the targeting of civilian energy infrastructure cruel and a breach of the rules of war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"490\" data-end=\"748\">As Russia’s attack on Ukraine reaches the four-year mark next month, we turn to look at its impact on Ukraine’s children. Journalist Anna Nemtsova has interviewed kids and teens across Ukraine orphaned by the war and joins me now. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"732\" data-end=\"739\">Forum\u003c/em>, Anna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"750\" data-end=\"781\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"750\" data-end=\"768\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"783\" data-end=\"978\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"783\" data-end=\"796\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> In many cases, the children you interviewed actually witnessed their parents’ deaths, as was the case with Alina Sotosco. Can you tell us what happened to her in November of 2024?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"980\" data-end=\"1225\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"980\" data-end=\"998\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Alina was together with her mother, visiting her grandmother in Kherson, a southern city on the Black Sea. They were hiding from the bombing that day. There were nine strikes on Kherson, and they were hiding in the bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1227\" data-end=\"1555\">During the explosion, there was a group of people hiding in the bathroom, and a missile hit nearby, near their building. They were all wounded with shrapnel. Alina saw that her mother was still alive, and she covered her mother with her own body during the second explosion, without realizing that her mother was already dead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1557\" data-end=\"1688\">Alina was wounded in her legs and in her arms with shrapnel, and she was undergoing multiple surgeries after she lost her mother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1690\" data-end=\"1759\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1690\" data-end=\"1703\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How was she doing when you saw her? How is she today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1977\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1761\" data-end=\"1779\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> She was a quiet teenage girl. She was fourteen when her mother was killed, and she turned sixteen when we met with her. She was shy. She didn’t want to talk about that awful day in November 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1979\" data-end=\"2288\">She had dyed her hair purple, and she told us about the heavy music she was listening to. She liked music. Otherwise, she couldn’t walk, and right now she’s expecting one more surgery on her legs. She’s dreaming of walking again. And one day, maybe, she’s dreaming of visiting her hometown on the Black Sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2290\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2290\" data-end=\"2303\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I understand that she’s resisted talking to a psychologist or having psychological help. What have you learned about why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2728\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2447\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Oh, well, there was no clear answer. She was not ready. When we interviewed psychologists and rehabilitologists, doctors at the Okhmatdyt Hospital, they said that children need time before they’re ready to talk about what happened to them or to their parents — about their loss.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2730\" data-end=\"2954\">So psychologists and doctors are there for the kids as soon as they’re ready. Before that, they try to entertain them. They invite musicians to the hospital. They take kids out on field trips, play with them, educate them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2956\" data-end=\"3276\">With Alina, it was difficult because she was very much inside, you know, with her own pain. She’s an introvert, she said. She wrote “loser” on her cast and then corrected one letter, crossed it out, and wrote “lover.” So she had a kind of dark sense of humor. She said, yes, I like music — but the heavier, the better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3417\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3278\" data-end=\"3291\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> What have the experts or doctors you’ve spoken to said about the recovery and rehabilitation that children like Alina face?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3419\" data-end=\"3589\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3419\" data-end=\"3437\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> A long time — for Alina, it’s a long road. She was severely wounded, and she’s sixteen. You know, it’s hard to go through surgeries without your mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3591\" data-end=\"3806\">We also interviewed Yulia and Katia. Katia was only thirteen when she witnessed her mother’s death in the bombing of Kramatorsk in 2022. She was in a wheelchair for a while, and she couldn’t really talk for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3808\" data-end=\"4071\">Now, you know, three or four years later, these kids feel much better. Time heals, they say. They still don’t like to talk about that tragic day, but Katia is studying design at a college in Kyiv, and Yulia spends days playing Roblox and going to school online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4073\" data-end=\"4329\">She likes Roblox, and she asked us to pass along a thank you to the Roblox developers in California. She said, you know, without Roblox, I wouldn’t have had friends. On the days of violence, when she could not go to school, she played her favorite games.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4331\" data-end=\"4659\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4331\" data-end=\"4344\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So Katia and Yulia, as you say, are sisters who were orphaned by their mother’s death in 2022, a couple years before Alina. But it sounds like their experiences are representative of other experiences among Ukraine’s children. How many Ukrainian kids have been orphaned by this war? What are the estimates?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4661\" data-end=\"4869\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4661\" data-end=\"4679\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> There is a group containing children orphaned by the war called SOS Children’s Villages. They are talking about about 2,000 children — about 2,000 children who’ve lost one or two parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4871\" data-end=\"5068\">We try to report stories to figure out how children do after they lose their parents, how they move on. All the children we interviewed were talented. Some like to paint. Some like to play music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5330\">We interviewed an amazing teenager who adopted, more or less, four of his brothers and sisters when their mother was killed in the Donetsk region. He moved them to Uzhhorod. Being eighteen years old, he was all of a sudden responsible for four more children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5332\" data-end=\"5651\">They are all talented. They play music. They sing. They all think of their mother still, whom they adore. She was a very, very good mother and an angel, he says — our character. He works two or three jobs to be able to provide for his siblings, and they’re all very well behaved — a good family, a good, solid family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5653\" data-end=\"5945\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5653\" data-end=\"5666\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Anna Nemtsova, Eastern Europe correspondent for \u003cem data-start=\"5734\" data-end=\"5751\">The Daily Beast\u003c/em> and a contributing writer to \u003cem data-start=\"5781\" data-end=\"5795\">The Atlantic\u003c/em>, about her new piece for KQED, which is up today on our website: “A Generation Orphaned by War: Ukrainian Children Grow Up Amid Loss and Recovery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5947\" data-end=\"6192\">We’re talking about the impact of Russia’s war on Ukraine’s children. Anna has spoken to some of the thousands of kids who’ve been orphaned or wounded or displaced or thrust, as she just described, into adult roles as caregivers and witnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6194\" data-end=\"6499\">Listeners, what are your thoughts and questions for Anna on the effects of losing a parent to violence and war? Perhaps you’re a survivor of war yourself or have a connection to Ukraine. How are you reflecting on nearly four years of Russia’s war on Ukraine and its impact? How do you think it will end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6501\" data-end=\"6651\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6515\" data-end=\"6529\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786 — 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6653\" data-end=\"6852\">You were talking about a young man who ended up taking on the adult role of caring for his siblings. Is this Vyacheslav Yalov? And if it is, could you tell us his story in a little bit more detail?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6854\" data-end=\"7096\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6854\" data-end=\"6872\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Vyacheslav just turned eighteen. A few days before, he witnessed his mother’s death. He cried every time he talked about his mother, but he made the decision to become a foster parent for four of his brothers and sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7098\" data-end=\"7300\">He evacuated his siblings to Uzhhorod in western Ukraine and established his life there, working as an aide for a local politician and thinking of becoming a politician himself. He has different jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7302\" data-end=\"7592\">When my colleagues — Ukrainian journalists I teamed up with to report on this project — first talked with him on the phone, they were in tears. They said he was so pure and genuine. What was unbelievable to them was how young he was to become a parent to so many children — four children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7594\" data-end=\"7739\">That tragedy made him grow up quicker. He had to move on. He had to take care of his siblings, and that was his biggest responsibility in life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7741\" data-end=\"7917\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7741\" data-end=\"7754\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And I understand he initially experienced two court denials in his bid to become the parent of his siblings, but he kept fighting and eventually got them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7919\" data-end=\"8112\">There’s one detail in your piece that really struck me. You wrote that after his siblings go to bed, he allows himself to feel the full weight of his grief — that he doesn’t want them to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8114\" data-end=\"8331\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8114\" data-end=\"8132\">Anna Nemtsova:\u003c/strong> Well, he’s a fatherly figure now — a strong, adult father, he’s supposed to be. But there are videos of him online crying when he talks about his mom. I’m sure his siblings have seen those videos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8333\" data-end=\"8494\">He’s a very light, warm, genuine young man, but he misses his mom greatly still, so many years later. He’s trying to move on, but missing her every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8496\" data-end=\"8699\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8496\" data-end=\"8509\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. The quote is, “I put the children to bed, go out onto the balcony, and sob with tears that I can’t describe to you. Sometimes I don’t understand what to do next, but I keep trying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8701\" data-end=\"8935\">We’re talking about the impact of Russia’s war in Ukraine on children and young adults with Anna Nemtsova. We’ll be hearing from you, our listeners, about your thoughts on the effect of war on kids, and maybe you know it personally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8937\" data-end=\"9065\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">We’ll also be discussing the current state of the situation in Ukraine. Stay with us. You’re listening to \u003cem data-start=\"9043\" data-end=\"9050\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, January 22 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Donald Trump has made clear that he wants Greenland, and is willing to upset allies to get it. After escalating threats, on Tuesday, Trump said on Truth Social that he and the head of NATO now have a “framework” on a future Greenland deal and Trump said he would no longer impose punitive tariffs, but offered no other specifics. Why is the acquisition of this self-governing and autonomous territory of Denmark the focus of Trump’s expansionist appetites? We’ll talk about Trump’s attempt to acquire Greenland and the repercussions of his latest foreign policy pivot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"276\" data-end=\"339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"276\" data-end=\"296\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"308\" data-end=\"315\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"341\" data-end=\"697\">No matter how we try to discuss Donald Trump’s recent effort to acquire Greenland, it pales in comparison to the crudeness and rudeness of how the president himself talks and posts about the situation. At the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, in front of world political and business leaders — let’s just listen to thirty seconds of his speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"699\" data-end=\"1195\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"699\" data-end=\"723\">Donald Trump (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>I’m helping Europe. I’m helping NATO. And I — and I’ve — until the last few days, when I told them about Iceland, they loved me. They called me daddy, right? The last time, a very smart man said, “He’s our daddy. He’s running it.” I was like, running it. I went from running it to being a terrible human being. But now what I’m asking for is a piece of ice, cold and poorly located, that can play a vital role in world peace and world protection. It’s a very small ask.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1197\" data-end=\"1637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1197\" data-end=\"1217\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You probably noticed that he called Greenland Iceland there. And Trump went on wheedling, meandering, threatening. He lied about obvious things — saying, for example, that China sells, quote, “windmills” to, quote, “stupid people,” but that he didn’t see any windmills in China. In fact, China is the number one country in the world for wind installations, with about twice as much capacity as all of Europe combined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1639\" data-end=\"1917\">But let’s not get too distracted by all that — at least not entirely. Let’s introduce our panel to help us understand what’s going on with Greenland and Trump’s foreign policy. We’ve got Jeffrey Gettleman, global international correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"1905\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"1965\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"1941\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Hey. Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1967\" data-end=\"2236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1967\" data-end=\"1987\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Eliot Cohen, Arleigh Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C. His most recent piece in \u003cem data-start=\"2147\" data-end=\"2161\">The Atlantic\u003c/em> is titled \u003cem data-start=\"2172\" data-end=\"2224\">How to Understand Trump’s Obsession With Greenland\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2238\" data-end=\"2277\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2238\" data-end=\"2254\">Eliot Cohen:\u003c/strong> Good to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2279\" data-end=\"2525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2279\" data-end=\"2299\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jeff, it’s been a wild, eventful thirty-six hours. The organizers of Davos probably have never been happier with the amount of news they’ve generated. Bring us up to speed. Where is Trump right now with regard to Greenland?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2527\" data-end=\"2833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2527\" data-end=\"2549\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> I see this as a major shift in the story. I’ve been covering Greenland for the past year. I’ve been there several times. And it all started last year, almost at this very time in January, when Trump — as he was beginning his second term — announced that he wanted to get Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2835\" data-end=\"3156\">It seemed like it came out of nowhere, but he had brought this up briefly in his first term. Denmark said, “No. We’re not interested in shifting our sovereignty to the United States,” because Greenland is an autonomous territory of Denmark. It’s been part of Denmark for three hundred years. Trump dropped it back then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3158\" data-end=\"3408\">But he really brought it up with a vengeance last year, and over the past year, his threats and intensity have been growing. He threatened to take it one way or another. He said, “I’m going to do something on Greenland whether they like it or not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3410\" data-end=\"3595\">Just a few days ago, he sent a message to the president of Norway saying, “Because I didn’t win the Nobel Peace Prize, I’m no longer interested in peace, and I need to get Greenland.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3597\" data-end=\"3930\">So that was the backdrop to yesterday. He shows up in Davos. He’s about to give this big speech. Everybody’s curious what he’s going to say about Greenland, NATO, Europe, and the rest of the world. And he announces that he’s no longer interested in using force and that they’re going to have negotiations over Greenland. But then —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3932\" data-end=\"4090\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3932\" data-end=\"3952\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Did you buy that? I mean, there were so many — it was sort of like, “not going to use force as long as everything…” It just felt very —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4092\" data-end=\"4373\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4092\" data-end=\"4114\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> I did buy it, because I’ve been covering this very closely. I was just in Greenland a few days ago, and he had been walking things back a little bit. If you really looked closely at his comments, he had started stepping away from the threat of using force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4375\" data-end=\"4585\">Last week, a reporter asked him about it at the White House, and he said, “I didn’t say I’d use force. You said I’d use force. I never said that.” So he was signaling that he was looking for another solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4587\" data-end=\"4754\">The big news came late last night, when he announced, “We’ve worked out a deal with NATO, and we’re going to have this new arrangement for Greenland and the Arctic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4756\" data-end=\"4816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4756\" data-end=\"4776\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the basics of what it looks like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4818\" data-end=\"5166\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4818\" data-end=\"4840\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> That’s what we’re all trying to figure out. But according to NATO officials my colleagues at \u003cem data-start=\"4934\" data-end=\"4954\">The New York Times\u003c/em> have spoken to, the possible compromise is this: Denmark and Greenland would cede sovereignty where existing U.S. bases — and future bases — are located. The U.S. would have sovereign control over those bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5168\" data-end=\"5280\">There’s a similar situation in Cyprus, where the British have air bases that are considered British territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5302\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Or Guantánamo?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5703\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5343\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Maybe, although Guantánamo is leased, I think. There are variations in these arrangements. But the idea was that this was a compromise — an off-ramp — a way to give President Trump something along the lines of what he wanted in his grand plan for Arctic security, without a cataclysmic showdown where the United States threatened to take Greenland by force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5705\" data-end=\"5963\">The thinking was that if the U.S. really tried to do that, NATO would not step in. Faced with a choice between keeping NATO intact, staying involved in Ukraine, and preserving Denmark’s sovereignty over Greenland, NATO would not break apart over Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5965\" data-end=\"6132\">So we avoided that. And now we’re left with confusion: What exactly was agreed to? What does this mean for Greenland, for Denmark, for the Arctic? It’s hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6134\" data-end=\"6268\">Trump has also floated grand ideas before — like turning Gaza into the Riviera of the Middle East — and then they kind of disappear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6270\" data-end=\"6515\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6270\" data-end=\"6290\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mhmm. Eliot Cohen — we have this short-term step down in escalation. People across Europe, in particular, seem relieved. But we did threaten to use military force. We went down that road, even if we came back. So what now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6517\" data-end=\"6691\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6517\" data-end=\"6533\">Eliot Cohen:\u003c/strong> Well, look — I wouldn’t say “we.” I’d say Trump. He really is such an outlier compared to any other president we’ve ever had. He’s totally out of the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6693\" data-end=\"6885\">Trump has an extraordinary sense of vanity and narcissism, which leads him to threaten things that nobody else would ever consider. That’s also his negotiation style, going back a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6887\" data-end=\"7119\">He has done real damage to the U.S.–European relationship. But it’s also important to put that damage in context. The relationship was bound to get scratchier no matter what, because it has had underlying tensions for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7121\" data-end=\"7282\">In some ways, that was the point of Prime Minister Mark Carney’s speech — pointing out that some of the illusions we were living with were, in fact, illusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7284\" data-end=\"7546\">As for where this ends up, I think it ends as a big nothing burger. The Danes have always been willing to offer more U.S. bases in Greenland. It’s not uncommon for a base to have qualities of sovereignty. Embassies, after all, are sovereign national territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7548\" data-end=\"7657\">This will simmer down until there’s a next thing — and given Trump being Trump, there will be a next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7659\" data-end=\"7697\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7659\" data-end=\"7679\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7699\" data-end=\"7830\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7699\" data-end=\"7721\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> To me, the most interesting question is what changed Trump’s direction. It’s almost like he made a U-turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7832\" data-end=\"8066\">A lot of people we’ve spoken with think it was the stock market. In the last few days, the market began to slide because of concerns about what the Greenland crisis could do to U.S.–European relations, trade tariffs, and trade wars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8068\" data-end=\"8283\">Some people believe Trump’s inner circle was watching the market fall and decided they needed a new strategy. At that moment, NATO officials came up with this compromise to upgrade the U.S. footprint in Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8285\" data-end=\"8425\">But as Eliot said — and as I’ve written — there are already agreements in place that give the U.S. essentially carte blanche in Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8447\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Dating back to the ’50s, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8483\" data-end=\"8837\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8483\" data-end=\"8505\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Actually, even earlier — back to World War II. When the Nazis occupied Denmark, Greenland was vulnerable. The U.S. feared Germany would build air bases there and use them to attack North America. Denmark couldn’t protect Greenland, so the U.S. stepped in, sent thousands of troops, built airfields, and cleared out Nazi outposts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8839\" data-end=\"9104\">After the war, the U.S. and Denmark reached an agreement giving the U.S. responsibility for Greenland’s defense. The U.S. could build bases, station troops, and control air and sea access. Jurisdiction on those bases was American — similar to the embassy example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9106\" data-end=\"9365\">So this talk of a compromise feels like putting a nice face on access the U.S. already had. What changed wasn’t the strategic reality — it was something inside Trump’s decision-making circle. And that’s what we’ll likely learn more about in the coming days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9367\" data-end=\"9482\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9367\" data-end=\"9387\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. In some future Washington tell-all, I’m sure. We’ll get back to this in just a second.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9484\" data-end=\"9746\">We’re talking about Trump’s efforts to acquire Greenland for the United States and what it means for foreign policy and global peace. I’m joined by Jeffrey Gettleman of \u003cem data-start=\"9653\" data-end=\"9673\">The New York Times\u003c/em> and Eliot Cohen of the Center for Strategic and International Studies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9748\" data-end=\"9813\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Could Greenland Become the 51st State? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, January 22 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Donald Trump has made clear that he wants Greenland, and is willing to upset allies to get it. After escalating threats, on Tuesday, Trump said on Truth Social that he and the head of NATO now have a “framework” on a future Greenland deal and Trump said he would no longer impose punitive tariffs, but offered no other specifics. Why is the acquisition of this self-governing and autonomous territory of Denmark the focus of Trump’s expansionist appetites? We’ll talk about Trump’s attempt to acquire Greenland and the repercussions of his latest foreign policy pivot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"276\" data-end=\"339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"276\" data-end=\"296\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"308\" data-end=\"315\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"341\" data-end=\"697\">No matter how we try to discuss Donald Trump’s recent effort to acquire Greenland, it pales in comparison to the crudeness and rudeness of how the president himself talks and posts about the situation. At the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, in front of world political and business leaders — let’s just listen to thirty seconds of his speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"699\" data-end=\"1195\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"699\" data-end=\"723\">Donald Trump (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>I’m helping Europe. I’m helping NATO. And I — and I’ve — until the last few days, when I told them about Iceland, they loved me. They called me daddy, right? The last time, a very smart man said, “He’s our daddy. He’s running it.” I was like, running it. I went from running it to being a terrible human being. But now what I’m asking for is a piece of ice, cold and poorly located, that can play a vital role in world peace and world protection. It’s a very small ask.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1197\" data-end=\"1637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1197\" data-end=\"1217\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You probably noticed that he called Greenland Iceland there. And Trump went on wheedling, meandering, threatening. He lied about obvious things — saying, for example, that China sells, quote, “windmills” to, quote, “stupid people,” but that he didn’t see any windmills in China. In fact, China is the number one country in the world for wind installations, with about twice as much capacity as all of Europe combined.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1639\" data-end=\"1917\">But let’s not get too distracted by all that — at least not entirely. Let’s introduce our panel to help us understand what’s going on with Greenland and Trump’s foreign policy. We’ve got Jeffrey Gettleman, global international correspondent with \u003cem data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"1905\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"1965\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1919\" data-end=\"1941\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Hey. Glad to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1967\" data-end=\"2236\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1967\" data-end=\"1987\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve also got Eliot Cohen, Arleigh Burke Chair in Strategy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C. His most recent piece in \u003cem data-start=\"2147\" data-end=\"2161\">The Atlantic\u003c/em> is titled \u003cem data-start=\"2172\" data-end=\"2224\">How to Understand Trump’s Obsession With Greenland\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2238\" data-end=\"2277\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2238\" data-end=\"2254\">Eliot Cohen:\u003c/strong> Good to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2279\" data-end=\"2525\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2279\" data-end=\"2299\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jeff, it’s been a wild, eventful thirty-six hours. The organizers of Davos probably have never been happier with the amount of news they’ve generated. Bring us up to speed. Where is Trump right now with regard to Greenland?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2527\" data-end=\"2833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2527\" data-end=\"2549\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> I see this as a major shift in the story. I’ve been covering Greenland for the past year. I’ve been there several times. And it all started last year, almost at this very time in January, when Trump — as he was beginning his second term — announced that he wanted to get Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2835\" data-end=\"3156\">It seemed like it came out of nowhere, but he had brought this up briefly in his first term. Denmark said, “No. We’re not interested in shifting our sovereignty to the United States,” because Greenland is an autonomous territory of Denmark. It’s been part of Denmark for three hundred years. Trump dropped it back then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3158\" data-end=\"3408\">But he really brought it up with a vengeance last year, and over the past year, his threats and intensity have been growing. He threatened to take it one way or another. He said, “I’m going to do something on Greenland whether they like it or not.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3410\" data-end=\"3595\">Just a few days ago, he sent a message to the president of Norway saying, “Because I didn’t win the Nobel Peace Prize, I’m no longer interested in peace, and I need to get Greenland.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3597\" data-end=\"3930\">So that was the backdrop to yesterday. He shows up in Davos. He’s about to give this big speech. Everybody’s curious what he’s going to say about Greenland, NATO, Europe, and the rest of the world. And he announces that he’s no longer interested in using force and that they’re going to have negotiations over Greenland. But then —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3932\" data-end=\"4090\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3932\" data-end=\"3952\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Did you buy that? I mean, there were so many — it was sort of like, “not going to use force as long as everything…” It just felt very —\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4092\" data-end=\"4373\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4092\" data-end=\"4114\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> I did buy it, because I’ve been covering this very closely. I was just in Greenland a few days ago, and he had been walking things back a little bit. If you really looked closely at his comments, he had started stepping away from the threat of using force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4375\" data-end=\"4585\">Last week, a reporter asked him about it at the White House, and he said, “I didn’t say I’d use force. You said I’d use force. I never said that.” So he was signaling that he was looking for another solution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4587\" data-end=\"4754\">The big news came late last night, when he announced, “We’ve worked out a deal with NATO, and we’re going to have this new arrangement for Greenland and the Arctic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4756\" data-end=\"4816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4756\" data-end=\"4776\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the basics of what it looks like?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4818\" data-end=\"5166\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4818\" data-end=\"4840\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> That’s what we’re all trying to figure out. But according to NATO officials my colleagues at \u003cem data-start=\"4934\" data-end=\"4954\">The New York Times\u003c/em> have spoken to, the possible compromise is this: Denmark and Greenland would cede sovereignty where existing U.S. bases — and future bases — are located. The U.S. would have sovereign control over those bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5168\" data-end=\"5280\">There’s a similar situation in Cyprus, where the British have air bases that are considered British territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5282\" data-end=\"5302\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Or Guantánamo?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5703\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5343\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Maybe, although Guantánamo is leased, I think. There are variations in these arrangements. But the idea was that this was a compromise — an off-ramp — a way to give President Trump something along the lines of what he wanted in his grand plan for Arctic security, without a cataclysmic showdown where the United States threatened to take Greenland by force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5705\" data-end=\"5963\">The thinking was that if the U.S. really tried to do that, NATO would not step in. Faced with a choice between keeping NATO intact, staying involved in Ukraine, and preserving Denmark’s sovereignty over Greenland, NATO would not break apart over Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5965\" data-end=\"6132\">So we avoided that. And now we’re left with confusion: What exactly was agreed to? What does this mean for Greenland, for Denmark, for the Arctic? It’s hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6134\" data-end=\"6268\">Trump has also floated grand ideas before — like turning Gaza into the Riviera of the Middle East — and then they kind of disappear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6270\" data-end=\"6515\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6270\" data-end=\"6290\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Mhmm. Eliot Cohen — we have this short-term step down in escalation. People across Europe, in particular, seem relieved. But we did threaten to use military force. We went down that road, even if we came back. So what now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6517\" data-end=\"6691\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6517\" data-end=\"6533\">Eliot Cohen:\u003c/strong> Well, look — I wouldn’t say “we.” I’d say Trump. He really is such an outlier compared to any other president we’ve ever had. He’s totally out of the norm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6693\" data-end=\"6885\">Trump has an extraordinary sense of vanity and narcissism, which leads him to threaten things that nobody else would ever consider. That’s also his negotiation style, going back a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6887\" data-end=\"7119\">He has done real damage to the U.S.–European relationship. But it’s also important to put that damage in context. The relationship was bound to get scratchier no matter what, because it has had underlying tensions for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7121\" data-end=\"7282\">In some ways, that was the point of Prime Minister Mark Carney’s speech — pointing out that some of the illusions we were living with were, in fact, illusions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7284\" data-end=\"7546\">As for where this ends up, I think it ends as a big nothing burger. The Danes have always been willing to offer more U.S. bases in Greenland. It’s not uncommon for a base to have qualities of sovereignty. Embassies, after all, are sovereign national territory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7548\" data-end=\"7657\">This will simmer down until there’s a next thing — and given Trump being Trump, there will be a next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7659\" data-end=\"7697\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7659\" data-end=\"7679\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Go ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7699\" data-end=\"7830\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7699\" data-end=\"7721\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> To me, the most interesting question is what changed Trump’s direction. It’s almost like he made a U-turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7832\" data-end=\"8066\">A lot of people we’ve spoken with think it was the stock market. In the last few days, the market began to slide because of concerns about what the Greenland crisis could do to U.S.–European relations, trade tariffs, and trade wars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8068\" data-end=\"8283\">Some people believe Trump’s inner circle was watching the market fall and decided they needed a new strategy. At that moment, NATO officials came up with this compromise to upgrade the U.S. footprint in Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8285\" data-end=\"8425\">But as Eliot said — and as I’ve written — there are already agreements in place that give the U.S. essentially carte blanche in Greenland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8427\" data-end=\"8447\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Dating back to the ’50s, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8483\" data-end=\"8837\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8483\" data-end=\"8505\">Jeffrey Gettleman:\u003c/strong> Actually, even earlier — back to World War II. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"mindshift": {
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"order": 12
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
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},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
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