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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>We tend to focus on how climate change affects coral reefs, sea turtles and polar bears on melting ice. But we rarely focus on how climate change is affecting microbes — the bacteria, fungi and viruses we can only see with microscopes — which outnumber all other life on earth. So says science writer Shayla Love, who warns that a warming planet might be making those microorganisms mutate in a concerning and even deadly way. And that melting ice may even unleash new, unfamiliar microbes. We’ll talk with Love about her New Yorker article, “Our Warming Planet Is a Petri Dish for New and Deadly Microbes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Lesley McClurg, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">A few years back, Lake Anza — this tiny swimming hole in the Berkeley Hills, near my house — closed because of a toxic algae bloom. It’s an event that’s going to become a lot more likely under a warming climate. The lake was fenced off, the water turned a thick, murky brown. It’s usually a lot of fun, buzzing with swimmers and families, but it was eerily quiet and pretty grim. Every warm day this summer, I get a little fear inside me. I worry it could happen again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">The impact of microbes — these tiny, tiny organisms — is very likely to change dramatically in coming years. In a new article for The New Yorker, Shayla Love explores what is happening to microscopic forms of life as the planet heats up. Shayla, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You open your piece with a story about Vernon Spear — a big, burly eighty-five-year-old man with thinning gray hair who dipped his hand in a local river in Cambridge, Maryland, and got infected with Vibrio vulnificus, popularly known as flesh-eating bacteria. Tell us the story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vernon lives on the Eastern Shore in Maryland, where he was born and has lived his whole life. One thing to know about that part of the country is that eating crab is a big part of the lifestyle. A lot of people have crab traps hanging off the docks near their homes, and Vernon is no exception. Almost daily in the summer, he’ll walk out to check if there are any crabs to steam and eat with Old Bay Seasoning, as you do in that region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">Last July, he got a couple of small scratches on his arm from the wire of the crab trap. He barely noticed — they drew a little blood, but they were tiny. He went inside, brought some crabs in. Then, over the course of the next day or two, his arm started turning a violent shade of red and purple and began to swell. It was a reaction to Vibrio vulnificus — commonly known as flesh-eating bacteria, though it doesn’t actually eat your flesh. What it does is cause the flesh to become necrotic and die. It’s a very dangerous infection: for roughly half the people whose infection reaches the bloodstream, it’s fatal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How did his case go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vernon survived — he was very lucky. His local emergency room doctor recognized it right away, and he was sent to a larger hospital in Baltimore, the shock trauma center at the university there. There’s really no question about whether surgery is needed; the standard response is to cut out the dying flesh. Antibiotics can be used, but they’re not effective on their own. So large portions of his arm were excised, and then you just have to hope the infection hasn’t spread further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">He was fortunate to keep his life and his arm — a lot of people in his situation require amputation. And he was just shocked, because interacting with the water was something he had done almost every day of his life during warm seasons on the Eastern Shore. He’d had cuts before and never thought twice about it. He simply couldn’t believe this had happened to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How common are these infections in Maryland?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vibrio vulnificus is quite rare. Flesh-eating bacteria is a terrifying name, and it is a terrifying infection, but these cases are still very uncommon. What’s changed is where they’re showing up. For most of Vernon’s life, seeing this infection north of Georgia was unusual. The concern isn’t that this is suddenly becoming common — it’s that the bacteria are appearing in more northerly climates. There have been infections as far north as New York and Rhode Island. The reason is that the water is getting warmer as the planet warms. The bacteria aren’t migrating so much as they’re proliferating in places where the water is now warm enough to support them. That’s what made Vernon’s case so striking — just how far north it occurred.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Since most of our listeners are on the West Coast, should we be worried? Is this bacteria moving north on this side of the country too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vibrio vulnificus exists in all brackish water — a mix of fresh and salt water. Its northward movement has been documented all around the world. There’s even been an infection north of the Arctic Circle near Finland, which is remarkable — that the water could be warm enough there to host a Vibrio population at levels sufficient to cause infection. So yes, it’s a global phenomenon. And if the water keeps getting warmer, the bacteria will keep expanding into new territory, because warm water is simply what it thrives in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do we have a sense of how fast cases are increasing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Researchers in Maryland, where there’s some very good Vibrio research happening, have found that the number of cases increased by more than fifty percent over a span of fourteen years. The numbers are still small, but they are growing. What’s also concerning is that the Vibrio season itself is expanding — starting earlier and ending later. Right now this is more of a concern in Gulf Coast states like Florida and North Carolina, whose public health departments are well aware of these infections. But in states like Maryland, or farther north, people may not recognize the symptoms because they’ve never had to worry about it before. So even a small increase could lead to deaths simply because of lack of familiarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Are there other microbes along the West Coast that may be changing because of climate change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> One that comes to mind is actually a fungus — the one that causes valley fever. In California, it’s not only getting warmer, but the wet seasons are getting wetter and the dry seasons drier. These shifting conditions affect how the fungus behaves. It takes up residence in the lungs and can cause infection that way. When it’s very dry, it gets blown around more easily. But when it’s wetter, it grows more abundantly, and then once the dry season returns, it spreads through the air and people can inhale it. Valley fever is definitely a growing concern in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Going back to Vernon Spear — you said he’s doing okay now. Any lingering effects, or is he more or less back to normal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> He’s doing well. In October, I went and observed a follow-up surgery where they did a skin graft, removing skin from one of his legs to cover the wound left in his arm. That was the final step. He texted me a photo recently of how he’s healing — you can still tell something happened; the skin is pink and shiny — but he feels very lucky. He’s also heard from others in his area. Once you’ve had a flesh-eating bacteria infection, people tend to find you and tell you their stories. He’s been hearing about friends of friends, neighbors, fishermen — people who work on the water, get cuts, and have had similar infections. He’s genuinely grateful to be alive, and still shocked that this is happening to people around him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And in that last conversation you had with him, he mentioned that he doesn’t believe in global warming?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. We were talking about what Vibrio was doing in the water near his home, and he shared that he doesn’t believe in global warming. And I think what’s difficult is that we live through seasons every year — we feel cold every year — so we don’t necessarily notice that each year is the hottest on record. It’s hard to feel in real time. When you’ve lived somewhere your whole life, you can sense that things are changing, but it’s hard to pin down. So I asked him whether he felt like the summers had gotten hotter and longer. And he did agree with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">I think there’s the lived reality of being in the climate we’re in, and then there’s the difficulty that comes when these things get politicized and you’re trying to track large-scale changes over the course of a lifetime. But what it goes to show is that he got the infection regardless of what he believes. The environments we live in are changing, and we’ll have to contend with that no matter what we think is the cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you push back on him at all — point out that he might not have gotten this infection if climate change weren’t happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> I was about to go meet with a researcher named Rita Colwell, who has spent her entire career studying Vibrio — she’s in her eighties and has been at it for decades. She studies the entire Vibrio family, which includes cholera. I mentioned her to Vernon, told him she was also a longtime Maryland resident, and that she had explained how warmer water leads to more of these bacteria. He was really open to that framing. I think asking him to reflect on what this researcher had said, or on whether the summers felt hotter to him, was a way of having the conversation without using more loaded terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You planted a seed for further investigation in his mind, I imagine. You report that in the near future, infections from climate-affected microbes will become more common — more stories like Vernon’s. Before we go further, let’s make sure we lay the groundwork: what exactly is a microbe, and what does that category include?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> I like to think about this through the lens of the tree of life. When we learn about the tree of life in elementary school, we tend to think of tigers and polar bears and big animals living in different parts of the world. But if you actually look at the tree of life, you can barely find humans or animals on it. We are a tiny twig on an enormous tree, and most of that tree is made up of microbes. Microbes are organisms you generally can’t see — some fungi are large enough to be visible, like mushrooms, but the category includes bacteria, protozoa, algae, archaea, and viruses, which we sometimes call microbes even though technically they’re not alive, since they can’t reproduce on their own. It’s this vast grouping of very small organisms that we live around and that live on and inside us constantly — and we mostly don’t think about them because they’re invisible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how climate change is affecting microbes. You just heard from Shayla Love, science writer and author of a piece in The New Yorker titled “Our Warming Planet Is a Petri Dish for New and Deadly Microbes.” We’ll be right back with Shayla. Stay with us. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>We tend to focus on how climate change affects coral reefs, sea turtles and polar bears on melting ice. But we rarely focus on how climate change is affecting microbes — the bacteria, fungi and viruses we can only see with microscopes — which outnumber all other life on earth. So says science writer Shayla Love, who warns that a warming planet might be making those microorganisms mutate in a concerning and even deadly way. And that melting ice may even unleash new, unfamiliar microbes. We’ll talk with Love about her New Yorker article, “Our Warming Planet Is a Petri Dish for New and Deadly Microbes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Lesley McClurg, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">A few years back, Lake Anza — this tiny swimming hole in the Berkeley Hills, near my house — closed because of a toxic algae bloom. It’s an event that’s going to become a lot more likely under a warming climate. The lake was fenced off, the water turned a thick, murky brown. It’s usually a lot of fun, buzzing with swimmers and families, but it was eerily quiet and pretty grim. Every warm day this summer, I get a little fear inside me. I worry it could happen again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">The impact of microbes — these tiny, tiny organisms — is very likely to change dramatically in coming years. In a new article for The New Yorker, Shayla Love explores what is happening to microscopic forms of life as the planet heats up. Shayla, welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You open your piece with a story about Vernon Spear — a big, burly eighty-five-year-old man with thinning gray hair who dipped his hand in a local river in Cambridge, Maryland, and got infected with Vibrio vulnificus, popularly known as flesh-eating bacteria. Tell us the story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vernon lives on the Eastern Shore in Maryland, where he was born and has lived his whole life. One thing to know about that part of the country is that eating crab is a big part of the lifestyle. A lot of people have crab traps hanging off the docks near their homes, and Vernon is no exception. Almost daily in the summer, he’ll walk out to check if there are any crabs to steam and eat with Old Bay Seasoning, as you do in that region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">Last July, he got a couple of small scratches on his arm from the wire of the crab trap. He barely noticed — they drew a little blood, but they were tiny. He went inside, brought some crabs in. Then, over the course of the next day or two, his arm started turning a violent shade of red and purple and began to swell. It was a reaction to Vibrio vulnificus — commonly known as flesh-eating bacteria, though it doesn’t actually eat your flesh. What it does is cause the flesh to become necrotic and die. It’s a very dangerous infection: for roughly half the people whose infection reaches the bloodstream, it’s fatal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How did his case go?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vernon survived — he was very lucky. His local emergency room doctor recognized it right away, and he was sent to a larger hospital in Baltimore, the shock trauma center at the university there. There’s really no question about whether surgery is needed; the standard response is to cut out the dying flesh. Antibiotics can be used, but they’re not effective on their own. So large portions of his arm were excised, and then you just have to hope the infection hasn’t spread further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">He was fortunate to keep his life and his arm — a lot of people in his situation require amputation. And he was just shocked, because interacting with the water was something he had done almost every day of his life during warm seasons on the Eastern Shore. He’d had cuts before and never thought twice about it. He simply couldn’t believe this had happened to him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> How common are these infections in Maryland?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vibrio vulnificus is quite rare. Flesh-eating bacteria is a terrifying name, and it is a terrifying infection, but these cases are still very uncommon. What’s changed is where they’re showing up. For most of Vernon’s life, seeing this infection north of Georgia was unusual. The concern isn’t that this is suddenly becoming common — it’s that the bacteria are appearing in more northerly climates. There have been infections as far north as New York and Rhode Island. The reason is that the water is getting warmer as the planet warms. The bacteria aren’t migrating so much as they’re proliferating in places where the water is now warm enough to support them. That’s what made Vernon’s case so striking — just how far north it occurred.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Since most of our listeners are on the West Coast, should we be worried? Is this bacteria moving north on this side of the country too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Vibrio vulnificus exists in all brackish water — a mix of fresh and salt water. Its northward movement has been documented all around the world. There’s even been an infection north of the Arctic Circle near Finland, which is remarkable — that the water could be warm enough there to host a Vibrio population at levels sufficient to cause infection. So yes, it’s a global phenomenon. And if the water keeps getting warmer, the bacteria will keep expanding into new territory, because warm water is simply what it thrives in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Do we have a sense of how fast cases are increasing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> Researchers in Maryland, where there’s some very good Vibrio research happening, have found that the number of cases increased by more than fifty percent over a span of fourteen years. The numbers are still small, but they are growing. What’s also concerning is that the Vibrio season itself is expanding — starting earlier and ending later. Right now this is more of a concern in Gulf Coast states like Florida and North Carolina, whose public health departments are well aware of these infections. But in states like Maryland, or farther north, people may not recognize the symptoms because they’ve never had to worry about it before. So even a small increase could lead to deaths simply because of lack of familiarity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Are there other microbes along the West Coast that may be changing because of climate change?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> One that comes to mind is actually a fungus — the one that causes valley fever. In California, it’s not only getting warmer, but the wet seasons are getting wetter and the dry seasons drier. These shifting conditions affect how the fungus behaves. It takes up residence in the lungs and can cause infection that way. When it’s very dry, it gets blown around more easily. But when it’s wetter, it grows more abundantly, and then once the dry season returns, it spreads through the air and people can inhale it. Valley fever is definitely a growing concern in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Going back to Vernon Spear — you said he’s doing okay now. Any lingering effects, or is he more or less back to normal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> He’s doing well. In October, I went and observed a follow-up surgery where they did a skin graft, removing skin from one of his legs to cover the wound left in his arm. That was the final step. He texted me a photo recently of how he’s healing — you can still tell something happened; the skin is pink and shiny — but he feels very lucky. He’s also heard from others in his area. Once you’ve had a flesh-eating bacteria infection, people tend to find you and tell you their stories. He’s been hearing about friends of friends, neighbors, fishermen — people who work on the water, get cuts, and have had similar infections. He’s genuinely grateful to be alive, and still shocked that this is happening to people around him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And in that last conversation you had with him, he mentioned that he doesn’t believe in global warming?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> That’s true. We were talking about what Vibrio was doing in the water near his home, and he shared that he doesn’t believe in global warming. And I think what’s difficult is that we live through seasons every year — we feel cold every year — so we don’t necessarily notice that each year is the hottest on record. It’s hard to feel in real time. When you’ve lived somewhere your whole life, you can sense that things are changing, but it’s hard to pin down. So I asked him whether he felt like the summers had gotten hotter and longer. And he did agree with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">I think there’s the lived reality of being in the climate we’re in, and then there’s the difficulty that comes when these things get politicized and you’re trying to track large-scale changes over the course of a lifetime. But what it goes to show is that he got the infection regardless of what he believes. The environments we live in are changing, and we’ll have to contend with that no matter what we think is the cause.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Did you push back on him at all — point out that he might not have gotten this infection if climate change weren’t happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> I was about to go meet with a researcher named Rita Colwell, who has spent her entire career studying Vibrio — she’s in her eighties and has been at it for decades. She studies the entire Vibrio family, which includes cholera. I mentioned her to Vernon, told him she was also a longtime Maryland resident, and that she had explained how warmer water leads to more of these bacteria. He was really open to that framing. I think asking him to reflect on what this researcher had said, or on whether the summers felt hotter to him, was a way of having the conversation without using more loaded terms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> You planted a seed for further investigation in his mind, I imagine. You report that in the near future, infections from climate-affected microbes will become more common — more stories like Vernon’s. Before we go further, let’s make sure we lay the groundwork: what exactly is a microbe, and what does that category include?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Shayla Love:\u003c/strong> I like to think about this through the lens of the tree of life. When we learn about the tree of life in elementary school, we tend to think of tigers and polar bears and big animals living in different parts of the world. But if you actually look at the tree of life, you can barely find humans or animals on it. We are a tiny twig on an enormous tree, and most of that tree is made up of microbes. Microbes are organisms you generally can’t see — some fungi are large enough to be visible, like mushrooms, but the category includes bacteria, protozoa, algae, archaea, and viruses, which we sometimes call microbes even though technically they’re not alive, since they can’t reproduce on their own. It’s this vast grouping of very small organisms that we live around and that live on and inside us constantly — and we mostly don’t think about them because they’re invisible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how climate change is affecting microbes. You just heard from Shayla Love, science writer and author of a piece in The New Yorker titled “Our Warming Planet Is a Petri Dish for New and Deadly Microbes.” We’ll be right back with Shayla. Stay with us. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, June 17 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cigarettes are cool again…especially with Gen Z. Despite decades of anti-smoking campaigns, you’re likely to see more young people smoking in films, at bars, on street corners, and in social media feeds. Researchers tie the trend to Y2K nostalgia, soft nihilism, and a turn away from “clean girl” wellness culture. Actual youth smoking rates are still at historic lows, but we’ll explore how glamorization complicates the public health conversation around nicotine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">Smoking is creeping back into the zeitgeist. On film, TV, and social media, folks are casually lighting up as if they’ve never seen a surgeon general’s warning. There’s Dakota Johnson taking a drag in the film \u003cem>Materialists\u003c/em>. There’s the girls of \u003cem>Girls\u003c/em> maniacally lighting up. And in the Hulu series \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em> — which tells the tale of JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette — whatever else may or may not be based on truth, one thing resonated: people smoked a lot in the nineties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">In fact, half of all films released last year included scenes featuring smoking, a ten percent increase compared to 2023, according to researchers. And it’s not just in media — it’s real life too. As the social media account Sigfluencers documents, people, particularly young people, like to smoke. While smoking rates among young people are at historic lows, there seems to be a shift in the social acceptability of cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">To talk about this rise in cigarette popularity, we’re joined by Kevin Truong, business editor at the San Francisco Standard, who co-wrote the piece “They Know What Kills You. Gen Z Is Smoking Cigarettes Anyway.” Welcome to Forum, Kevin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We also have Degen Pener, a journalist who wrote a piece for The Anchor called “Cigarettes Get a Sequel: Hollywood’s Cool Habit Is Back.” Welcome to Forum, Degen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And we have Dr. Pamela Ling, professor of medicine at UCSF and director of the UCSF Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education. She studies tobacco industry marketing strategies that target young adults, women, and other high-risk populations. Welcome to Forum, Dr. Ling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Dr. Pamela Ling:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Kevin, let’s start with you. For your piece, you and your colleague Lawrence Sario ventured out into the, quote, tobacco-scented night to see what was up. What did you find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> We spent a lot of time on sidewalks and bar patios over the course of that night. What we were really trying to understand was how much knowledge Gen Z has about the public health impacts — and their own personal health risks — from smoking, and what’s driving them to smoke in the first place. What we found is a kind of general sense of youthful invulnerability that I think a lot of us had in our twenties, but also what we called in the article a sort of soft nihilism. A lot of people made the argument that the world is kind of collapsing around them, so why not light up a cigarette?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> That seems like the least of all our problems. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Exactly what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> One of the people you spoke to said, “Indie sleaze is back.” What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> It’s funny that I’m on KQED explaining indie sleaze. But it’s basically an aesthetic from the early 2000s — it wasn’t really called that at the time — exemplified by bands like The Strokes. A little bit punk, a little bit trashy. Kesha is another example of that aesthetic. A lot of the people I talked to wanted a return to that look and feel, and cigarettes and messy hair are part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> A little Charli XCX brat summer. Is that accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> The people you spoke to may have been aware of the health risks, but there was a lot of — as you said — I’m not going to worry about something that’s going to kill me twenty years from now. Is that the soft nihilism you’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And there’s also a kind of rationalization at work. A lot of the cigarette smokers I spoke to actually looked down on people who vape. One person told me, in a joking way, that cigarettes are “vintage vapes” — and they were also wearing a lot of vintage clothes, so I suppose it fit. There were also some dubious scientific theories floating around. One young woman, around twenty-two, told me smoking is better than drinking because she only smokes in moderation, as opposed to having a couple of drinks. Though we should be clear — smoking in any amount is dangerous to your health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yes — that’s what Dr. Pamela Ling is here for. But Degen, you’re based in LA, and smoking seems to be a feature of a certain Hollywood scene. As you note in your article, where there’s smoke, there’s smoking. What attitudes did you find in those circles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> People see it as a way to connect. There’s a big social aspect to smoking, especially going out to bars right now. A lot of these young people in their early twenties missed out on time with others because of the COVID pandemic. Bumming a cigarette and starting up a conversation is an easy way to connect. That’s how they see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Asking someone for a light feels like a safe way to meet someone new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And there is that sense of invulnerability too. A lot of the people I spoke to — I went out to bars, talked to people outside and even inside one bar in LA that has an exemption allowing smoking on its patio, which is rare — said they’re just going to keep it to social smoking. Which I think is a bit of denialism about how addictive nicotine can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It used to be that smoking wasn’t socially acceptable, and there seems to be a tension in your piece. Some people didn’t want their names used — they wanted to talk about their smoking habits but stay anonymous. And Kevin, in your piece, people seemed much more open about it. Degen, did you find in LA that most people didn’t want to be identified talking about their smoking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> There were probably a couple of people I could have pushed a little more who might have given me their names. But a couple of people said, oh, I work at this talent agency, or I work at this animation studio — and because of that, they didn’t want their names out there. When you work at a high-profile company, you probably need to get approval before talking to a journalist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about the way smoking is being depicted in film and TV. I mentioned \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em>, which takes place in the nineties and features a lot of smoking. Have you noticed any shifts in how smoking is portrayed in media?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of shifts. A lot of people talked to me about how glamorous they found Carolyn Bessette smoking in \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em>. I was also struck to see cigarettes being used as signifiers of cool in fashion magazine shoots — in \u003cem>Interview Magazine\u003c/em>, for instance, and I believe there was Kylie Jenner on the cover of \u003cem>Vanity Fair\u003c/em>, boldly lighting up right on the cover. That felt like a shock wave when it landed a few months back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> What’s the idea behind it? Is it to shock people, or to document a current trend?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a rebellious streak to it — a “don’t tell us what to do” attitude. But I did go back to a couple of the people I’d spoken with and asked them about the rebellious and nihilistic angle, and they pushed back on that framing, at least in LA. They said the social aspect is what matters most to them — and looking cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Of course, looking cool. But cigarettes aren’t cheap — a pack in San Francisco runs about twenty dollars. And Kevin, it’s interesting to me that it’s still socially acceptable to ask someone for a cigarette, but you’d never just ask a stranger for a dollar, which is basically what a single cigarette costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> The ritual of asking for a light is something I observed — that way of striking up a conversation has persisted across decades. You wouldn’t ask someone for a dollar, but asking for a cigarette carries a different social currency. A lot of people emphasized to me this idea of it being a shared social experience — you take out a pack, or your friends have one, and you end up making an entirely new group of friends over the course of the night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Degen, one thing that surprised me — maybe it shouldn’t have — is that some people in Hollywood who built their brands around health and wellness, like Gwyneth Paltrow, aren’t afraid to light up. You mentioned a launch party for one of her brands. What were they giving out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> They had cigarettes on trays at a launch party for her fashion brand, Gwen. There was also a fashion brand called Dôen that co-sponsored a benefit for Planned Parenthood in Hollywood, and they had cigarettes on trays as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Right? All makes sense. And there was another brand called Khaite — K-H-A-I-T-E — that had branded cigarettes in a Marlboro-style box as a party favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Kevin, how much is nostalgia playing into the idea that smoking is cool?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> It’s a big part of it. You mentioned \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em> and the glamorization of the nineties — and even something like \u003cem>Mad Men\u003c/em>, which is basically half smoking across its entire run. When I talked to Gen Z smokers on the streets of San Francisco, a lot of them mentioned a nostalgia for something they never actually experienced, which was interesting. They wanted to return to something that felt pre-COVID — which was genuinely traumatic for their generation — and pre-smartphones. One person talked about she and her friends doing something they called “going nineties,” which will be alarming to people who actually lived through the nineties: they’d leave their cell phones at home, take out a pack of cigarettes, and go out for the night. There’s something in that about returning to a more in-person social experience, before social media started inundating them with messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Degen, you also found someone who compared it to vinyl records — going analog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Exactly. He said it was like having vinyl. And then one of his friends said she saw vapes as smoking a machine — something digital that nobody actually wanted — and said they’d go back to the real thing. To cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about cigarettes making a comeback, and why young people are picking up smoking again despite all the public health messaging. After the break, we’ll bring in Dr. Pamela Ling to talk about why that messaging is more complicated than it might seem. We’re joined by Kevin Truong, business editor at the San Francisco Standard, Degen Pener, journalist, and Dr. Pamela Ling, professor of medicine at UCSF. We want to hear from you — are you seeing an uptick in smoking among young people? Call us at 866-733-6786 or email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. More Forum after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> From KQED, welcome to Forum. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">Smoking is creeping back into the zeitgeist. On film, TV, and social media, folks are casually lighting up as if they’ve never seen a surgeon general’s warning. There’s Dakota Johnson taking a drag in the film \u003cem>Materialists\u003c/em>. There’s the girls of \u003cem>Girls\u003c/em> maniacally lighting up. And in the Hulu series \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em> — which tells the tale of JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette — whatever else may or may not be based on truth, one thing resonated: people smoked a lot in the nineties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">In fact, half of all films released last year included scenes featuring smoking, a ten percent increase compared to 2023, according to researchers. And it’s not just in media — it’s real life too. As the social media account Sigfluencers documents, people, particularly young people, like to smoke. While smoking rates among young people are at historic lows, there seems to be a shift in the social acceptability of cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">To talk about this rise in cigarette popularity, we’re joined by Kevin Truong, business editor at the San Francisco Standard, who co-wrote the piece “They Know What Kills You. Gen Z Is Smoking Cigarettes Anyway.” Welcome to Forum, Kevin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We also have Degen Pener, a journalist who wrote a piece for The Anchor called “Cigarettes Get a Sequel: Hollywood’s Cool Habit Is Back.” Welcome to Forum, Degen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Thank you. Good morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And we have Dr. Pamela Ling, professor of medicine at UCSF and director of the UCSF Center for Tobacco Control Research and Education. She studies tobacco industry marketing strategies that target young adults, women, and other high-risk populations. Welcome to Forum, Dr. Ling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Dr. Pamela Ling:\u003c/strong> Hi. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Kevin, let’s start with you. For your piece, you and your colleague Lawrence Sario ventured out into the, quote, tobacco-scented night to see what was up. What did you find?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> We spent a lot of time on sidewalks and bar patios over the course of that night. What we were really trying to understand was how much knowledge Gen Z has about the public health impacts — and their own personal health risks — from smoking, and what’s driving them to smoke in the first place. What we found is a kind of general sense of youthful invulnerability that I think a lot of us had in our twenties, but also what we called in the article a sort of soft nihilism. A lot of people made the argument that the world is kind of collapsing around them, so why not light up a cigarette?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> That seems like the least of all our problems. Right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Exactly what they said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> One of the people you spoke to said, “Indie sleaze is back.” What does that mean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> It’s funny that I’m on KQED explaining indie sleaze. But it’s basically an aesthetic from the early 2000s — it wasn’t really called that at the time — exemplified by bands like The Strokes. A little bit punk, a little bit trashy. Kesha is another example of that aesthetic. A lot of the people I talked to wanted a return to that look and feel, and cigarettes and messy hair are part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> A little Charli XCX brat summer. Is that accurate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> The people you spoke to may have been aware of the health risks, but there was a lot of — as you said — I’m not going to worry about something that’s going to kill me twenty years from now. Is that the soft nihilism you’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And there’s also a kind of rationalization at work. A lot of the cigarette smokers I spoke to actually looked down on people who vape. One person told me, in a joking way, that cigarettes are “vintage vapes” — and they were also wearing a lot of vintage clothes, so I suppose it fit. There were also some dubious scientific theories floating around. One young woman, around twenty-two, told me smoking is better than drinking because she only smokes in moderation, as opposed to having a couple of drinks. Though we should be clear — smoking in any amount is dangerous to your health.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yes — that’s what Dr. Pamela Ling is here for. But Degen, you’re based in LA, and smoking seems to be a feature of a certain Hollywood scene. As you note in your article, where there’s smoke, there’s smoking. What attitudes did you find in those circles?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> People see it as a way to connect. There’s a big social aspect to smoking, especially going out to bars right now. A lot of these young people in their early twenties missed out on time with others because of the COVID pandemic. Bumming a cigarette and starting up a conversation is an easy way to connect. That’s how they see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Asking someone for a light feels like a safe way to meet someone new.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Exactly. And there is that sense of invulnerability too. A lot of the people I spoke to — I went out to bars, talked to people outside and even inside one bar in LA that has an exemption allowing smoking on its patio, which is rare — said they’re just going to keep it to social smoking. Which I think is a bit of denialism about how addictive nicotine can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It used to be that smoking wasn’t socially acceptable, and there seems to be a tension in your piece. Some people didn’t want their names used — they wanted to talk about their smoking habits but stay anonymous. And Kevin, in your piece, people seemed much more open about it. Degen, did you find in LA that most people didn’t want to be identified talking about their smoking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> There were probably a couple of people I could have pushed a little more who might have given me their names. But a couple of people said, oh, I work at this talent agency, or I work at this animation studio — and because of that, they didn’t want their names out there. When you work at a high-profile company, you probably need to get approval before talking to a journalist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Let’s talk about the way smoking is being depicted in film and TV. I mentioned \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em>, which takes place in the nineties and features a lot of smoking. Have you noticed any shifts in how smoking is portrayed in media?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of shifts. A lot of people talked to me about how glamorous they found Carolyn Bessette smoking in \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em>. I was also struck to see cigarettes being used as signifiers of cool in fashion magazine shoots — in \u003cem>Interview Magazine\u003c/em>, for instance, and I believe there was Kylie Jenner on the cover of \u003cem>Vanity Fair\u003c/em>, boldly lighting up right on the cover. That felt like a shock wave when it landed a few months back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> What’s the idea behind it? Is it to shock people, or to document a current trend?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> I think there’s a rebellious streak to it — a “don’t tell us what to do” attitude. But I did go back to a couple of the people I’d spoken with and asked them about the rebellious and nihilistic angle, and they pushed back on that framing, at least in LA. They said the social aspect is what matters most to them — and looking cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Of course, looking cool. But cigarettes aren’t cheap — a pack in San Francisco runs about twenty dollars. And Kevin, it’s interesting to me that it’s still socially acceptable to ask someone for a cigarette, but you’d never just ask a stranger for a dollar, which is basically what a single cigarette costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> The ritual of asking for a light is something I observed — that way of striking up a conversation has persisted across decades. You wouldn’t ask someone for a dollar, but asking for a cigarette carries a different social currency. A lot of people emphasized to me this idea of it being a shared social experience — you take out a pack, or your friends have one, and you end up making an entirely new group of friends over the course of the night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Degen, one thing that surprised me — maybe it shouldn’t have — is that some people in Hollywood who built their brands around health and wellness, like Gwyneth Paltrow, aren’t afraid to light up. You mentioned a launch party for one of her brands. What were they giving out?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> They had cigarettes on trays at a launch party for her fashion brand, Gwen. There was also a fashion brand called Dôen that co-sponsored a benefit for Planned Parenthood in Hollywood, and they had cigarettes on trays as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Naturally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Right? All makes sense. And there was another brand called Khaite — K-H-A-I-T-E — that had branded cigarettes in a Marlboro-style box as a party favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Kevin, how much is nostalgia playing into the idea that smoking is cool?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Kevin Truong:\u003c/strong> It’s a big part of it. You mentioned \u003cem>Love Story\u003c/em> and the glamorization of the nineties — and even something like \u003cem>Mad Men\u003c/em>, which is basically half smoking across its entire run. When I talked to Gen Z smokers on the streets of San Francisco, a lot of them mentioned a nostalgia for something they never actually experienced, which was interesting. They wanted to return to something that felt pre-COVID — which was genuinely traumatic for their generation — and pre-smartphones. One person talked about she and her friends doing something they called “going nineties,” which will be alarming to people who actually lived through the nineties: they’d leave their cell phones at home, take out a pack of cigarettes, and go out for the night. There’s something in that about returning to a more in-person social experience, before social media started inundating them with messages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Degen, you also found someone who compared it to vinyl records — going analog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Degen Pener:\u003c/strong> Exactly. He said it was like having vinyl. And then one of his friends said she saw vapes as smoking a machine — something digital that nobody actually wanted — and said they’d go back to the real thing. To cigarettes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"font-claude-response-body break-words whitespace-normal\">\u003cstrong>Grace Won:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about cigarettes making a comeback, and why young people are picking up smoking again despite all the public health messaging. After the break, we’ll bring in Dr. Pamela Ling to talk about why that messaging is more complicated than it might seem. We’re joined by Kevin Truong, business editor at the San Francisco Standard, Degen Pener, journalist, and Dr. Pamela Ling, professor of medicine at UCSF. We want to hear from you — are you seeing an uptick in smoking among young people? Call us at 866-733-6786 or email \u003ca class=\"underline underline underline-offset-2 decoration-1 decoration-current/40 hover:decoration-current focus:decoration-current\" href=\"mailto:forum@kqed.org\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. More Forum after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 16 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s no longer news that Hollywood studios are using artificial intelligence in editing, animation, visual effects and more. But last week “Dreams of Violets,” a new film about protests in Iran, became the first fully AI-generated live-action feature to screen at Tribeca and is a project that journalist Steven Zeitchik says the industry is watching nervously. We talk about the rapidly growing use of A.I. in filmmaking and the impacts that’s having on audiences, industry professionals and an artform built on human storytelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, this is Forum. I’m Rachael Myrow, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One first-time director made a feature for $2,000—no actors, no cameras—and showed it at Tribeca. A more established director, Gareth Edwards of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rogue One\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> fame, told Hollywood insiders at Amazon’s AI on the Lot event in May, quote, “I view it like having a second-unit director who is a billionaire on acid,” unquote—as in tasteless, but well-resourced and up for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you’re an actor who’s not a superstar, or a set designer, or a visual effects specialist, AI might sound like a death knell for your career and the careers of thousands of others. Is it? And where does the audience—us—factor into all of this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we start with Steven Zeitchik, senior editor of technology and politics for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Steven, thank you so much for being here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me, Rachael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So set the stage, if you will, for us—maybe the soundstage. What are the most exciting and/or alarming things a moviemaker can do these days with AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a very interesting question, and the answer, I think, is often the same thing. We can get into it for a second.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You allude to this Iranian movie that premiered at the Tribeca Festival in New York last week, and it was really quite a striking example. I was in the theater watching it, and this British-Iranian filmmaker and engineer had never really made a feature that was released. He made a 75-minute movie that, while not a contiguous narrative by any stretch, was about the Tehran protests in January 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nonetheless, it had a certain cinematic quality and certainly a storytelling aspect to it. Basically, he sat in his apartment generating images and putting them together. He told little snippets of different stories about people undergoing the protests, things he had read about, and stuff he had written. He really directed the film as he would have had he had $10 million to go to Morocco and reconstruct it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the end, he didn’t have that. He had, as you noted, $2,000 and was able to create an entire piece of cinema without ever leaving his apartment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in that regard, I think it’s very exciting. Someone who doesn’t have the budget, doesn’t have the means, doesn’t have the contacts, or, in this case, doesn’t have access to the region, can make a full film that we could see in theaters as if they did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The downside is: What does that mean for all the people who would normally be making that film? The physical production folks? What about someone who could have gone and made that movie and decides not to because it’s easier? What does it mean when we take filmmaking out of the analog realm and out of the hands of humans and put it largely in the hands of a model? Sure, there’s a director and storyteller at the helm, but what happens to everyone else?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, we’re talking, by the way, about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams of Violets\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> by Ash Kusha. I’m curious: How did the audience react? You were there in the room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The audience was fairly enthusiastic, I would say. Now, you could imagine that folks who were opposed to it wouldn’t have shown up. It wasn’t like there were protests or anything. People were very respectful and interested.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say, when the credits rolled and it was just his name over and over again—because, again, you don’t really need a crew—it was a little funny in the room. Gareth, all due respect, is obviously a big Hollywood director, and he’s going to use AI as a first AD. But if you’re an indie filmmaker, you’re going to use it as your first, second, and third AD, as your director, as your producer, as your writer, as your actor. You’re going to use it for everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was a little funny when you were expecting a crew to be credited or actors to be noted, and it just ended up being the same person over and over again. That got some titters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But apart from that, people were engaged and very curious. Folks had either played with the tools themselves or were film fans wondering about the future of the art form. You had a lot of people coming up afterward. In fact, it spilled out onto the street. I would say a dozen people wanted to query him about it. Curiosity was a big hallmark of the moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one use-case scenario, right? From soup to nuts, essentially. But how are other, perhaps more established, players in the business using AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a real spectrum. I’m glad we were able to talk about this film because it’s a kind of micro-indie, extreme end of the spectrum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little further over on that spectrum, the next night there was something called the Runway AI Film Festival in New York. It’ll be in Los Angeles this week. That featured slightly more established filmmakers using the tools, maybe not entirely, but somewhat comprehensively, to generate shorts that were then screened as part of Runway AI at Lincoln Center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you move further down the spectrum to more established filmmakers, you have more and more people using AI as tools for their own storytelling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll give listeners two quick examples they might relate to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One is Jon Erwin, who did a show called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">House of David\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I believe on Amazon—a historical, biblical period piece. Instead of recreating everything by hand or through expensive production methods, he used a lot of AI tools and plans to continue doing so. He just founded a company with Amazon’s backing that’s going to focus on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s a pretty traditional storyteller. He uses actors and crews. But for some of the larger reconstructions, we’re likely going to see AI used not just for his shows and movies, but for a lot of other people’s projects as well, if he has his druthers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another creator many listeners will know is Matt Stone, of Trey Parker and Matt Stone fame, with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Park\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Book of Mormon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and other cultural touchstones. He has a company called Deep Voodoo that’s been around for 6 or 7 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their mantra is interesting because they’re not just trying to replace physical sets. They’re trying to do things that, as Matt says, a human can’t do. He says, “People talk about AI doing your taxes. I have a human who can do my taxes. I want to use it to do something you can’t do.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, if people watched \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the streaming series based on the movie, they used it for de-aging effects. Folks who watch \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Park\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> may remember a Trump deepfake at the beginning of last season. That was made with Deep Voodoo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are genre uses—creative uses—in horror, comedy, and beyond. It’s AI in the context of traditional entertainment, doing things that aren’t replacing what we’d ordinarily shoot, but actually expanding what’s possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You mentioned Runway a couple moments ago. There’s a genuine gold rush on from the Silicon Valley perspective: Runway, Luma, ByteDance, Black Forest Labs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For folks who don’t know a diffusion model from a drive-in, who are these companies? What do they do? And are they actually delivering on their big promises?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Excellent question. It’s important to distinguish among them because they’re not all doing the same things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Broadly speaking, there are a number of companies devoted to video generation. Think about the way many people use ChatGPT to help write an email or a memo, or use AI tools to help with coding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can already use video-generation tools—Google has Veo, for example—but companies like Runway and Luma are particularly focused on filmmaker-centric video generation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Essentially, the way you’d use ChatGPT to help write a thank-you note to your Aunt Dottie, you would use these tools to help create a scene.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their sales pitch to Hollywood—and really to anyone who wants to make movies—is that they’ve trained their models on enormous amounts of material. If you’d like to have a horse run through an open field for your Western, or a spaceship travel through the cosmos for your sci-fi picture, they’ve trained on millions and millions of images and videos across the history of cinema. Now you can use those tools to create your own.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking with Steve Zeitchik, senior editor for technology and politics at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He’s also the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mind and Iron\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a humanist newsletter about our glorious AI future. I am adding the word “glorious,” I guess.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re talking about the burgeoning use of AI in filmmaking and the effect that all of this is having on industry professionals, audiences, and the business of Hollywood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We want to hear from you, dear listener. Do you work in Hollywood? How is AI affecting your job? How do you feel about the use of AI in filmmaking? Are there things you think AI should not be used for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you work in AI? What do you think we need to understand about how it’s being used in film and entertainment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email your comments and questions to forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or give us a call. Go the traditional route. Call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever you do, though, don’t touch that dial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 16 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s no longer news that Hollywood studios are using artificial intelligence in editing, animation, visual effects and more. But last week “Dreams of Violets,” a new film about protests in Iran, became the first fully AI-generated live-action feature to screen at Tribeca and is a project that journalist Steven Zeitchik says the industry is watching nervously. We talk about the rapidly growing use of A.I. in filmmaking and the impacts that’s having on audiences, industry professionals and an artform built on human storytelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED, this is Forum. I’m Rachael Myrow, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One first-time director made a feature for $2,000—no actors, no cameras—and showed it at Tribeca. A more established director, Gareth Edwards of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rogue One\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> fame, told Hollywood insiders at Amazon’s AI on the Lot event in May, quote, “I view it like having a second-unit director who is a billionaire on acid,” unquote—as in tasteless, but well-resourced and up for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if you’re an actor who’s not a superstar, or a set designer, or a visual effects specialist, AI might sound like a death knell for your career and the careers of thousands of others. Is it? And where does the audience—us—factor into all of this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we start with Steven Zeitchik, senior editor of technology and politics for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Steven, thank you so much for being here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me, Rachael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So set the stage, if you will, for us—maybe the soundstage. What are the most exciting and/or alarming things a moviemaker can do these days with AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a very interesting question, and the answer, I think, is often the same thing. We can get into it for a second.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You allude to this Iranian movie that premiered at the Tribeca Festival in New York last week, and it was really quite a striking example. I was in the theater watching it, and this British-Iranian filmmaker and engineer had never really made a feature that was released. He made a 75-minute movie that, while not a contiguous narrative by any stretch, was about the Tehran protests in January 2026.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nonetheless, it had a certain cinematic quality and certainly a storytelling aspect to it. Basically, he sat in his apartment generating images and putting them together. He told little snippets of different stories about people undergoing the protests, things he had read about, and stuff he had written. He really directed the film as he would have had he had $10 million to go to Morocco and reconstruct it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But in the end, he didn’t have that. He had, as you noted, $2,000 and was able to create an entire piece of cinema without ever leaving his apartment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So in that regard, I think it’s very exciting. Someone who doesn’t have the budget, doesn’t have the means, doesn’t have the contacts, or, in this case, doesn’t have access to the region, can make a full film that we could see in theaters as if they did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The downside is: What does that mean for all the people who would normally be making that film? The physical production folks? What about someone who could have gone and made that movie and decides not to because it’s easier? What does it mean when we take filmmaking out of the analog realm and out of the hands of humans and put it largely in the hands of a model? Sure, there’s a director and storyteller at the helm, but what happens to everyone else?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, we’re talking, by the way, about \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dreams of Violets\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> by Ash Kusha. I’m curious: How did the audience react? You were there in the room.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The audience was fairly enthusiastic, I would say. Now, you could imagine that folks who were opposed to it wouldn’t have shown up. It wasn’t like there were protests or anything. People were very respectful and interested.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I will say, when the credits rolled and it was just his name over and over again—because, again, you don’t really need a crew—it was a little funny in the room. Gareth, all due respect, is obviously a big Hollywood director, and he’s going to use AI as a first AD. But if you’re an indie filmmaker, you’re going to use it as your first, second, and third AD, as your director, as your producer, as your writer, as your actor. You’re going to use it for everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it was a little funny when you were expecting a crew to be credited or actors to be noted, and it just ended up being the same person over and over again. That got some titters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But apart from that, people were engaged and very curious. Folks had either played with the tools themselves or were film fans wondering about the future of the art form. You had a lot of people coming up afterward. In fact, it spilled out onto the street. I would say a dozen people wanted to query him about it. Curiosity was a big hallmark of the moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So this is one use-case scenario, right? From soup to nuts, essentially. But how are other, perhaps more established, players in the business using AI?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a real spectrum. I’m glad we were able to talk about this film because it’s a kind of micro-indie, extreme end of the spectrum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little further over on that spectrum, the next night there was something called the Runway AI Film Festival in New York. It’ll be in Los Angeles this week. That featured slightly more established filmmakers using the tools, maybe not entirely, but somewhat comprehensively, to generate shorts that were then screened as part of Runway AI at Lincoln Center.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you move further down the spectrum to more established filmmakers, you have more and more people using AI as tools for their own storytelling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ll give listeners two quick examples they might relate to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One is Jon Erwin, who did a show called \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">House of David\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I believe on Amazon—a historical, biblical period piece. Instead of recreating everything by hand or through expensive production methods, he used a lot of AI tools and plans to continue doing so. He just founded a company with Amazon’s backing that’s going to focus on that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s a pretty traditional storyteller. He uses actors and crews. But for some of the larger reconstructions, we’re likely going to see AI used not just for his shows and movies, but for a lot of other people’s projects as well, if he has his druthers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another creator many listeners will know is Matt Stone, of Trey Parker and Matt Stone fame, with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Park\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Book of Mormon\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and other cultural touchstones. He has a company called Deep Voodoo that’s been around for 6 or 7 years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their mantra is interesting because they’re not just trying to replace physical sets. They’re trying to do things that, as Matt says, a human can’t do. He says, “People talk about AI doing your taxes. I have a human who can do my taxes. I want to use it to do something you can’t do.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For example, if people watched \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the streaming series based on the movie, they used it for de-aging effects. Folks who watch \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South Park\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> may remember a Trump deepfake at the beginning of last season. That was made with Deep Voodoo.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are genre uses—creative uses—in horror, comedy, and beyond. It’s AI in the context of traditional entertainment, doing things that aren’t replacing what we’d ordinarily shoot, but actually expanding what’s possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You mentioned Runway a couple moments ago. There’s a genuine gold rush on from the Silicon Valley perspective: Runway, Luma, ByteDance, Black Forest Labs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For folks who don’t know a diffusion model from a drive-in, who are these companies? What do they do? And are they actually delivering on their big promises?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Zeitchik:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Excellent question. It’s important to distinguish among them because they’re not all doing the same things.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Broadly speaking, there are a number of companies devoted to video generation. Think about the way many people use ChatGPT to help write an email or a memo, or use AI tools to help with coding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can already use video-generation tools—Google has Veo, for example—but companies like Runway and Luma are particularly focused on filmmaker-centric video generation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Essentially, the way you’d use ChatGPT to help write a thank-you note to your Aunt Dottie, you would use these tools to help create a scene.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Their sales pitch to Hollywood—and really to anyone who wants to make movies—is that they’ve trained their models on enormous amounts of material. If you’d like to have a horse run through an open field for your Western, or a spaceship travel through the cosmos for your sci-fi picture, they’ve trained on millions and millions of images and videos across the history of cinema. Now you can use those tools to create your own.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking with Steve Zeitchik, senior editor for technology and politics at \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Hollywood Reporter\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He’s also the author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mind and Iron\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a humanist newsletter about our glorious AI future. I am adding the word “glorious,” I guess.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re talking about the burgeoning use of AI in filmmaking and the effect that all of this is having on industry professionals, audiences, and the business of Hollywood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We want to hear from you, dear listener. Do you work in Hollywood? How is AI affecting your job? How do you feel about the use of AI in filmmaking? Are there things you think AI should not be used for?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you work in AI? What do you think we need to understand about how it’s being used in film and entertainment?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email your comments and questions to forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, and Instagram. We’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or give us a call. Go the traditional route. Call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever you do, though, don’t touch that dial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
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},
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
},
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "WNYC"
},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
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