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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 18 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the spring travel season upon us, the cheapest airline tickets are becoming even more restrictive, as the nation’s top airlines chip away at what’s included in a “Basic Economy” fare. These tickets can severely limit travel perks like choosing your own seat, carrying-on a bag, or making changes to your flight. At the same time, rising fuel prices are making air travel more expensive and the government shutdown impacting the Department of Homeland Security is creating major slowdowns at TSA checkpoints. How much is too much to ask of air travelers, and can we push back?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"321\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"76\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"88\" data-end=\"95\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. An NBC News headline this week probably summed it up best: “Flying in America is about to get more expensive and less fun.” Though if you fly basic economy, it probably wasn’t all that much fun to begin with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"323\" data-end=\"855\">A confluence of events has increased the potential for a rough spring travel season. The partial government shutdown has caused long lines at airport security as TSA workers go without pay, and airlines are starting to increase ticket prices as the cost of jet fuel rises from the U.S. war on Iran. Add to that, airlines are chipping away at what few perks remain on the lowest-tier—or basic economy—flights, which is where we begin this hour with Andrea Sachs, travel reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"805\" data-end=\"826\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"839\" data-end=\"846\">Forum\u003c/em>, Andrea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1036\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"874\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> Hi there. So happy to be here. Actually, I wish I were there, but it would cost me $1,000, and I’d probably miss my flight because I’d get stuck in the TSA line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1038\" data-end=\"1215\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1038\" data-end=\"1051\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, your recent piece is called “Why Do Airlines Hate Basic Economy Passengers?” and it does kind of feel like they hate us. Are we, like, their lowest priority?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1217\" data-end=\"1460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1217\" data-end=\"1234\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> I’m not trying to take it personally, but come on—yes. We’re the littlest ones, and I do feel like they’re picking on us. I say “we” because I fly basic economy; I don’t really see the point in spending more than I need to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1462\" data-end=\"1725\">So when they introduced this, they were competing with the ultra-low-budget carriers—Frontier and Spirit—and those are bare-bones. Basic economy is like a step up from that. It’s like a motel versus a youth hostel. But it’s really simple—you don’t get many perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1727\" data-end=\"1782\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1727\" data-end=\"1740\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah—what do the restrictions tend to be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1801\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> No seat selection—they choose the seat for you, so you lose your autonomy. You’re the last to board, which means oftentimes there’s no room in the overhead bins for your bags, so you have to gate-check.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2406\">And for a lot of people, this is the hardest part: it’s nonrefundable. So you’re really stuck with that ticket. If you need to change, alter, or cancel it, there are options, but you’re often going to have to pay more to fix your mistake than you would just going on the flight. They charge a change fee, plus any difference in fare, so they make it really onerous to change a basic economy ticket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2408\" data-end=\"2539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2408\" data-end=\"2421\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, you have to pay to check your bag—but are airlines also moving toward making us pay to carry on a bag?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2541\" data-end=\"2832\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2541\" data-end=\"2558\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> United—I’m shocked—they’re the one holdout in a different way. Most airlines with basic economy allow a personal item—the little bag that fits under the seat—and a carry-on. United charges, and they don’t just throw a small fee at you. They charge $65—and they shame you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2834\" data-end=\"3108\">So when you show up thinking, “Maybe I can just sneak it on,” your boarding pass will say you’re basic economy. You have to pay $65 to gate-check, and then they’ll also charge you the normal checked-bag fee. So they’re basically saying, “You are not getting away with this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3110\" data-end=\"3131\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3110\" data-end=\"3123\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3133\" data-end=\"3300\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3133\" data-end=\"3150\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> So I tend not to fly United because I’m not very good at shoving everything into a tiny bag under my seat, which is what Spirit and Frontier require.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3302\" data-end=\"3396\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3302\" data-end=\"3315\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I see. And why is basic economy in the news now? Are they taking even more away?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3398\" data-end=\"3489\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3398\" data-end=\"3415\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> They are. As if that weren’t enough, now they’re taking our miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3491\" data-end=\"3830\">We didn’t accumulate many miles to begin with—back in the day, it was based on distance, so you earned points based on miles flown. Now it’s based on how much you pay. So obviously, we’re paying the least, so we earn the fewest miles—but now they’ve taken that away entirely. Even though we’re loyalty members, we’ve lost the biggest perk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3832\" data-end=\"3984\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3832\" data-end=\"3845\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And is this kind of a breaking point for you? You said you fly basic economy—are you thinking about no longer being loyal to your airline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3986\" data-end=\"4167\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3986\" data-end=\"4003\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> It’s so funny—it kind of feels like a bad boyfriend. There are still some good things about the relationship, but they need to step it up to woo me and court me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4169\" data-end=\"4432\">So I am definitely looking elsewhere. I’ll fly JetBlue—they used to charge for carry-ons in basic economy, but they reversed that, so now they allow it. So I’m looking at them in markets where they’re competitive, especially where you have all the major airlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4434\" data-end=\"4567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4434\" data-end=\"4447\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite listeners into the conversation—we’re having a little trouble with your connection there, Andrea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4569\" data-end=\"4874\">But listeners, does air travel seem like it’s gotten even worse for you recently? What’s been your experience? Do you buy basic economy tickets? Is the savings worth the inconvenience, or have you changed your travel habits to avoid the hassle? And what are your go-to travel tips to make things easier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4876\" data-end=\"5023\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4890\" data-end=\"4904\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @kqedforum, or call 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5025\" data-end=\"5152\">Andrea, is there an argument to be made that basic economy fares—at least in a positive sense—have made flying more accessible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5154\" data-end=\"5387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5154\" data-end=\"5171\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> They have—and they haven’t. Typically, when you’re booking, you’ll see the basic economy fare, but oftentimes it’s sold out, or they might not even offer it on really competitive routes because they don’t need us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5389\" data-end=\"5596\">They’ll have people who will pay for standard economy, which isn’t that much more—maybe $50 or $70—and then going up the scale. Who they really want are the high-end customers: business class, first class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5598\" data-end=\"5875\">But they don’t want to cut us loose completely, and we don’t necessarily want to leave them either. We still get advantages from flying legacy airlines: free entertainment, good apps, easier customer service, complimentary drinks and snacks, and often more comfortable seats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5877\" data-end=\"6130\">So I think a lot of us will keep doing it—looking at fares on the major airlines. It would take a lot to push people down to ultra-budget carriers. But with airfares rising because of the oil crisis and instability in the Middle East, that might happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6132\" data-end=\"6474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6132\" data-end=\"6145\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, Steve on Discord writes, “Airlines don’t care about any of their passengers. Big companies only care about their bottom line. They reduce costs wherever possible. Doing so is easier at the bottom end of the market, where the non-wealthy are less capable of pushback. The wealthy require a better illusion of care.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6476\" data-end=\"6767\">I think one of the worries is: where does this stop? Not that long ago, things like picking your seat or getting a free checked bag were standard. And we’ve rapidly moved to this new model. So how much more are airlines going to ask travelers to tolerate? Is there much more room to squeeze?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6769\" data-end=\"6934\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6769\" data-end=\"6786\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> There’s that joke—especially with Ryanair, the most bare-bones carrier I’ve flown in Europe—like, “Are you going to charge me to use the toilet?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6936\" data-end=\"7094\">At some point, they know they need us. They need people to fill seats because it’s expensive to run an airline. But they may be pickier about who they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7096\" data-end=\"7242\">If they keep stripping away perks, we might go elsewhere. But I don’t know if they care as much anymore—they’re sending signals that they don’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7244\" data-end=\"7544\">There are other carriers worth looking at. Breeze has been expanding, and I’ve enjoyed flying them. They serve secondary markets where legacy airlines charge a lot—hundreds of dollars—and Breeze comes in cheaper. So it might be worth broadening your search and not always defaulting to the big three.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7546\" data-end=\"7760\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7546\" data-end=\"7559\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the state of air travel as airlines raise costs and cut services for economy passengers, with Andrea Sachs, travel reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"7708\" data-end=\"7729\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>—and with you, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7762\" data-end=\"7869\">You can join the conversation at 866-733-6786, on social media @kqedforum, or by emailing \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"7866\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7871\" data-end=\"7906\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 18 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the spring travel season upon us, the cheapest airline tickets are becoming even more restrictive, as the nation’s top airlines chip away at what’s included in a “Basic Economy” fare. These tickets can severely limit travel perks like choosing your own seat, carrying-on a bag, or making changes to your flight. At the same time, rising fuel prices are making air travel more expensive and the government shutdown impacting the Department of Homeland Security is creating major slowdowns at TSA checkpoints. How much is too much to ask of air travelers, and can we push back?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"321\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"76\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"88\" data-end=\"95\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. An NBC News headline this week probably summed it up best: “Flying in America is about to get more expensive and less fun.” Though if you fly basic economy, it probably wasn’t all that much fun to begin with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"323\" data-end=\"855\">A confluence of events has increased the potential for a rough spring travel season. The partial government shutdown has caused long lines at airport security as TSA workers go without pay, and airlines are starting to increase ticket prices as the cost of jet fuel rises from the U.S. war on Iran. Add to that, airlines are chipping away at what few perks remain on the lowest-tier—or basic economy—flights, which is where we begin this hour with Andrea Sachs, travel reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"805\" data-end=\"826\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"839\" data-end=\"846\">Forum\u003c/em>, Andrea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1036\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"874\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> Hi there. So happy to be here. Actually, I wish I were there, but it would cost me $1,000, and I’d probably miss my flight because I’d get stuck in the TSA line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1038\" data-end=\"1215\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1038\" data-end=\"1051\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, your recent piece is called “Why Do Airlines Hate Basic Economy Passengers?” and it does kind of feel like they hate us. Are we, like, their lowest priority?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1217\" data-end=\"1460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1217\" data-end=\"1234\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> I’m not trying to take it personally, but come on—yes. We’re the littlest ones, and I do feel like they’re picking on us. I say “we” because I fly basic economy; I don’t really see the point in spending more than I need to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1462\" data-end=\"1725\">So when they introduced this, they were competing with the ultra-low-budget carriers—Frontier and Spirit—and those are bare-bones. Basic economy is like a step up from that. It’s like a motel versus a youth hostel. But it’s really simple—you don’t get many perks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1727\" data-end=\"1782\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1727\" data-end=\"1740\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah—what do the restrictions tend to be?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1784\" data-end=\"1801\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> No seat selection—they choose the seat for you, so you lose your autonomy. You’re the last to board, which means oftentimes there’s no room in the overhead bins for your bags, so you have to gate-check.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2406\">And for a lot of people, this is the hardest part: it’s nonrefundable. So you’re really stuck with that ticket. If you need to change, alter, or cancel it, there are options, but you’re often going to have to pay more to fix your mistake than you would just going on the flight. They charge a change fee, plus any difference in fare, so they make it really onerous to change a basic economy ticket.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2408\" data-end=\"2539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2408\" data-end=\"2421\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And of course, you have to pay to check your bag—but are airlines also moving toward making us pay to carry on a bag?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2541\" data-end=\"2832\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2541\" data-end=\"2558\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> United—I’m shocked—they’re the one holdout in a different way. Most airlines with basic economy allow a personal item—the little bag that fits under the seat—and a carry-on. United charges, and they don’t just throw a small fee at you. They charge $65—and they shame you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2834\" data-end=\"3108\">So when you show up thinking, “Maybe I can just sneak it on,” your boarding pass will say you’re basic economy. You have to pay $65 to gate-check, and then they’ll also charge you the normal checked-bag fee. So they’re basically saying, “You are not getting away with this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3110\" data-end=\"3131\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3110\" data-end=\"3123\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3133\" data-end=\"3300\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3133\" data-end=\"3150\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> So I tend not to fly United because I’m not very good at shoving everything into a tiny bag under my seat, which is what Spirit and Frontier require.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3302\" data-end=\"3396\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3302\" data-end=\"3315\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I see. And why is basic economy in the news now? Are they taking even more away?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3398\" data-end=\"3489\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3398\" data-end=\"3415\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> They are. As if that weren’t enough, now they’re taking our miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3491\" data-end=\"3830\">We didn’t accumulate many miles to begin with—back in the day, it was based on distance, so you earned points based on miles flown. Now it’s based on how much you pay. So obviously, we’re paying the least, so we earn the fewest miles—but now they’ve taken that away entirely. Even though we’re loyalty members, we’ve lost the biggest perk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3832\" data-end=\"3984\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3832\" data-end=\"3845\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And is this kind of a breaking point for you? You said you fly basic economy—are you thinking about no longer being loyal to your airline?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3986\" data-end=\"4167\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3986\" data-end=\"4003\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> It’s so funny—it kind of feels like a bad boyfriend. There are still some good things about the relationship, but they need to step it up to woo me and court me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4169\" data-end=\"4432\">So I am definitely looking elsewhere. I’ll fly JetBlue—they used to charge for carry-ons in basic economy, but they reversed that, so now they allow it. So I’m looking at them in markets where they’re competitive, especially where you have all the major airlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4434\" data-end=\"4567\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4434\" data-end=\"4447\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Well, let me invite listeners into the conversation—we’re having a little trouble with your connection there, Andrea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4569\" data-end=\"4874\">But listeners, does air travel seem like it’s gotten even worse for you recently? What’s been your experience? Do you buy basic economy tickets? Is the savings worth the inconvenience, or have you changed your travel habits to avoid the hassle? And what are your go-to travel tips to make things easier?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4876\" data-end=\"5023\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4890\" data-end=\"4904\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads @kqedforum, or call 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5025\" data-end=\"5152\">Andrea, is there an argument to be made that basic economy fares—at least in a positive sense—have made flying more accessible?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5154\" data-end=\"5387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5154\" data-end=\"5171\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> They have—and they haven’t. Typically, when you’re booking, you’ll see the basic economy fare, but oftentimes it’s sold out, or they might not even offer it on really competitive routes because they don’t need us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5389\" data-end=\"5596\">They’ll have people who will pay for standard economy, which isn’t that much more—maybe $50 or $70—and then going up the scale. Who they really want are the high-end customers: business class, first class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5598\" data-end=\"5875\">But they don’t want to cut us loose completely, and we don’t necessarily want to leave them either. We still get advantages from flying legacy airlines: free entertainment, good apps, easier customer service, complimentary drinks and snacks, and often more comfortable seats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5877\" data-end=\"6130\">So I think a lot of us will keep doing it—looking at fares on the major airlines. It would take a lot to push people down to ultra-budget carriers. But with airfares rising because of the oil crisis and instability in the Middle East, that might happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6132\" data-end=\"6474\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6132\" data-end=\"6145\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, Steve on Discord writes, “Airlines don’t care about any of their passengers. Big companies only care about their bottom line. They reduce costs wherever possible. Doing so is easier at the bottom end of the market, where the non-wealthy are less capable of pushback. The wealthy require a better illusion of care.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6476\" data-end=\"6767\">I think one of the worries is: where does this stop? Not that long ago, things like picking your seat or getting a free checked bag were standard. And we’ve rapidly moved to this new model. So how much more are airlines going to ask travelers to tolerate? Is there much more room to squeeze?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6769\" data-end=\"6934\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6769\" data-end=\"6786\">Andrea Sachs:\u003c/strong> There’s that joke—especially with Ryanair, the most bare-bones carrier I’ve flown in Europe—like, “Are you going to charge me to use the toilet?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6936\" data-end=\"7094\">At some point, they know they need us. They need people to fill seats because it’s expensive to run an airline. But they may be pickier about who they want.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7096\" data-end=\"7242\">If they keep stripping away perks, we might go elsewhere. But I don’t know if they care as much anymore—they’re sending signals that they don’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7244\" data-end=\"7544\">There are other carriers worth looking at. Breeze has been expanding, and I’ve enjoyed flying them. They serve secondary markets where legacy airlines charge a lot—hundreds of dollars—and Breeze comes in cheaper. So it might be worth broadening your search and not always defaulting to the big three.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7546\" data-end=\"7760\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7546\" data-end=\"7559\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the state of air travel as airlines raise costs and cut services for economy passengers, with Andrea Sachs, travel reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"7708\" data-end=\"7729\">The Washington Post\u003c/em>—and with you, our listeners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7762\" data-end=\"7869\">You can join the conversation at 866-733-6786, on social media @kqedforum, or by emailing \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"7852\" data-end=\"7866\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7871\" data-end=\"7906\">More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 18 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Women’s history often goes unwritten and unspoken. But KQED’s Rae Alexandra sets the record straight in her new book, ‘Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area.” From Delilah Beasley, a trailblazing columnist for the Oakland Tribune who inspired generations of black female journalists to Bertha Wright, a nurse, who in 1913 founded what we now know as Benioff Children’s Hospital, Alexandra uncovers hidden histories and stories that deserve to be told. We talk to Alexandra about the women who made the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"496\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"77\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"89\" data-end=\"96\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. If you ask someone to name a famous Bay Area woman, they might offer up former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, perhaps Petaluma’s Winona Ryder, or maybe authors Amy Tan or Maya Angelou. And very likely, they might tell you about Oakland’s own gold medal–winning figure skater, Alysa Liu. These are women whose life stories have been told in print, TV, and film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"498\" data-end=\"932\">But most people probably wouldn’t name-drop activist Myra Virginia Simmons or nurse Pat McGinnis, who ran a clinic for women recovering from illegal abortions. But thanks to KQED’s Rae Alexandra, the stories of these women are being told. Her new book is \u003cem data-start=\"753\" data-end=\"814\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>. It’s punchy and, like Rae herself, a little punk. She’s here today to tell us all about it. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"919\" data-end=\"926\">Forum\u003c/em>, Rae.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"934\" data-end=\"973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"934\" data-end=\"952\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Good morning, Grace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"975\" data-end=\"1081\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"975\" data-end=\"989\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, you began investigating women’s history out of sheer frustration. What was happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1083\" data-end=\"1652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1083\" data-end=\"1101\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> This started in 2018. At the time, I’d always been a music writer, a pop culture writer, and somebody went around San Francisco and counted the statues—how many were men and how many were women. And of 87 statues, you could count the women on one hand. That made me angry—talk about punchy. So I decided to write five essays for Women’s History Month that year just to prove that there were amazing women from Northern California who’d not been honored. Then it became an obsession. And seven years later, there were 55 women, and now there’s a book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1654\" data-end=\"1797\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1654\" data-end=\"1668\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, I like how you once said, “I was complaining about it constantly and even talking to people on uni about it all the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"2111\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"1817\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> I was sat in Mission Bar next to this poor man, and I was just endlessly complaining about this. And he just kept saying, “Well, you know, San Francisco’s a Gold Rush town. Maybe there weren’t women here. Maybe they just didn’t get here till later.” And just in my gut, I knew it wasn’t right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2156\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2127\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> You’re like, “Wrong answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2176\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Yeah. No, that can’t be right. And so I stopped doing the usual thing that I wrote about and became a history writer, which was a learning curve—going from Beyoncé to that. But it paid off in the end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2379\" data-end=\"2625\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2379\" data-end=\"2393\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, the way the book is organized is you have little vignettes about 35 women, and they range from, as I said in the introduction, activists to health care workers and beyond. It spans from the 19th century to the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2627\" data-end=\"2996\">And I wanted to start with some women involved in cooking, because we often think—or are told—that the kitchen is a woman’s place, and yet there are so few professional women chefs, or not as many as we think there should be. You begin early in the book with a woman who was the second Black woman to write a cookbook: Abby Fisher. Tell us a little bit about her story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3231\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3016\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> So Abby Fisher grew up enslaved on a plantation in South Carolina. From the time she could see over the stove, she was in the kitchen, so she learned absolutely everything there is to know about Southern cooking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3233\" data-end=\"3500\">When she and her family moved to California, people in the Bay Area had never had anything like her food, so she was an instant hit. She and her husband had a pickles and preserves company that won multiple prestigious awards, so she became well known very quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3502\" data-end=\"3944\">Then she was approached by the Women’s Cooperative Printing Office, which used to be in downtown San Francisco. They said, “Why don’t you write a cookbook? We’d love to hear your recipes.” And she, of course, had never learned to read or write. So they got creative—they brought in nine volunteers, and she basically dictated the cookbook to them, and they transcribed it. That’s how they got around it. And that book is still in print today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3946\" data-end=\"4003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3946\" data-end=\"3960\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And I think it’s called—what is it called?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4005\" data-end=\"4076\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4005\" data-end=\"4023\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> \u003cem data-start=\"4024\" data-end=\"4075\">What Mrs. Fisher Knows About Old Southern Cooking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4092\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s pretty awesome. And because she dictated the book, and a lot of the recipes were Southern and unfamiliar to these West Coast volunteers, there are some pretty funny typos in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4285\" data-end=\"4540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4285\" data-end=\"4303\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> And I love the fact that they still haven’t been corrected. My favorite one—because no one knew what succotash was—is that it’s written as “circuit hash.” Jambalaya is listed as “jumbelaya,” and mayonnaise is listed as “Milanese sauce.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"4615\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"4556\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, that does make mayo sound a little better—fancier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4617\" data-end=\"4647\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4617\" data-end=\"4635\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4828\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4663\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Another aspect of that cookbook that’s interesting is it really elucidates how enslaved people used remedies and food to help cure ailments and take care of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4830\" data-end=\"5154\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4830\" data-end=\"4848\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It’s a remarkable document for that. There are multiple recipes—she was raising kids on a plantation—and for her to come up with these remedies, like how to help your children when they have a fever or a stomach upset, using only ingredients from the kitchen and what she had access to, is really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5156\" data-end=\"5297\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5156\" data-end=\"5170\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I thought her recipe for blackberry syrup for dysentery—I’m like, I would just put that in a cocktail and be very happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5299\" data-end=\"5436\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5299\" data-end=\"5317\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> The pie recipes in this book really do sound delicious. I’m not a cook myself, but if I was, I’d have given them a go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5438\" data-end=\"5683\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5438\" data-end=\"5452\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Well, we’re talking about unsung heroines of the Bay Area with Rae Alexandra. She’s a staff writer with KQED’s Arts and Culture Desk, and her new book is \u003cem data-start=\"5619\" data-end=\"5680\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5685\" data-end=\"5891\">And we’d love to hear from you. Who is an unsung heroine whose story you think should be told? Is it your mom, a friend, a colleague? Who’s a woman—historical or contemporary—that you admire? Tell us why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5893\" data-end=\"6145\">You can give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email your comments and questions to \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6003\" data-end=\"6017\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram—we’re @kqedforum. And there’s always our Discord community, so please write in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6147\" data-end=\"6336\">Another woman in the cooking frame is Elena Zelayeta, and I think she might be responsible for one of the first restaurant pop-ups in the early 20th century. Tell us a little bit about her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6338\" data-end=\"6585\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6338\" data-end=\"6356\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Elena had been a secretary until the Great Depression, but she lost her job. Her husband, who was a structural engineer, also lost his job. So she came up with the idea of turning their North Beach apartment into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6587\" data-end=\"6788\">The food was so popular so quickly that they ended up with people standing in the stairwell all night, every night. She worked from 5 a.m. to midnight, and she popularized Mexican food in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6849\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6804\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And she wrote a lot of cookbooks too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6851\" data-end=\"7185\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6851\" data-end=\"6869\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> She did. She opened the restaurant in 1930, and within the first few years, she’d written her first cookbook—and it sold half a million copies. Which, given that during the Depression there was so much hostility toward Mexican immigrants because of the job shortage, speaks to how delicious her food must have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7187\" data-end=\"7283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7187\" data-end=\"7201\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It must have been. She’s like the precursor to the Mission’s Tamale Lady, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7285\" data-end=\"7335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7285\" data-end=\"7303\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Oh, 100 percent. Yeah—Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7337\" data-end=\"7410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7337\" data-end=\"7351\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And didn’t she have a TV show as well at some point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7412\" data-end=\"7693\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7412\" data-end=\"7430\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> She did. The apartment restaurant eventually turned into a brick-and-mortar restaurant in Union Square, inside the King George Hotel. Then in 1934, she suddenly went blind, so she had to close the restaurant. The other chefs working for her weren’t as popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7695\" data-end=\"7967\">When she finally recovered, she went back to teaching in schools for the blind. Then in 1944, she was so well known that KGO-TV, which was brand new in San Francisco, gave her her own television show. She did that with her son, and it was called \u003cem data-start=\"7941\" data-end=\"7964\">Fun to Eat with Elena\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7969\" data-end=\"8224\">This was a very basic setup—for example, when producers wanted her to turn toward a different camera, they tugged on strings attached to her ankles because they couldn’t think of another way to communicate with her. So this woman was incredibly resilient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8226\" data-end=\"8362\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8226\" data-end=\"8240\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, she’s blind, she’s cooking as a blind person with her son, and she has a TV show. It sounds like a Netflix drama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8364\" data-end=\"8460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8364\" data-end=\"8382\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It’s really wild. I think a lot of women in this book deserve Netflix dramas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8462\" data-end=\"8604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8462\" data-end=\"8476\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It would be awesome if they could get that. So having investigated these stories, did it change how you felt about these women?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8606\" data-end=\"8708\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8606\" data-end=\"8624\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It changed how I felt about this entire region—and the history of it as we know it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8710\" data-end=\"9051\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8710\" data-end=\"8724\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re going to hear more from Rae Alexandra, whose new book is \u003cem data-start=\"8794\" data-end=\"8855\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>. And we want to hear from you. Who’s an unsung heroine in your life? Is it your mom, a friend, a colleague, a sister, an aunt? Who is a woman—historical or contemporary—who you admire, and why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9053\" data-end=\"9125\">Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9108\" data-end=\"9122\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9127\" data-end=\"9219\">A listener on Bluesky writes, “Dianne Feinstein was one of the greatest politicians ever.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9221\" data-end=\"9283\">I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. More after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 18 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Women’s history often goes unwritten and unspoken. But KQED’s Rae Alexandra sets the record straight in her new book, ‘Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area.” From Delilah Beasley, a trailblazing columnist for the Oakland Tribune who inspired generations of black female journalists to Bertha Wright, a nurse, who in 1913 founded what we now know as Benioff Children’s Hospital, Alexandra uncovers hidden histories and stories that deserve to be told. We talk to Alexandra about the women who made the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"496\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"63\" data-end=\"77\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"89\" data-end=\"96\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. If you ask someone to name a famous Bay Area woman, they might offer up former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, perhaps Petaluma’s Winona Ryder, or maybe authors Amy Tan or Maya Angelou. And very likely, they might tell you about Oakland’s own gold medal–winning figure skater, Alysa Liu. These are women whose life stories have been told in print, TV, and film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"498\" data-end=\"932\">But most people probably wouldn’t name-drop activist Myra Virginia Simmons or nurse Pat McGinnis, who ran a clinic for women recovering from illegal abortions. But thanks to KQED’s Rae Alexandra, the stories of these women are being told. Her new book is \u003cem data-start=\"753\" data-end=\"814\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>. It’s punchy and, like Rae herself, a little punk. She’s here today to tell us all about it. Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"919\" data-end=\"926\">Forum\u003c/em>, Rae.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"934\" data-end=\"973\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"934\" data-end=\"952\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Good morning, Grace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"975\" data-end=\"1081\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"975\" data-end=\"989\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, you began investigating women’s history out of sheer frustration. What was happening?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1083\" data-end=\"1652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1083\" data-end=\"1101\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> This started in 2018. At the time, I’d always been a music writer, a pop culture writer, and somebody went around San Francisco and counted the statues—how many were men and how many were women. And of 87 statues, you could count the women on one hand. That made me angry—talk about punchy. So I decided to write five essays for Women’s History Month that year just to prove that there were amazing women from Northern California who’d not been honored. Then it became an obsession. And seven years later, there were 55 women, and now there’s a book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1654\" data-end=\"1797\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1654\" data-end=\"1668\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, I like how you once said, “I was complaining about it constantly and even talking to people on uni about it all the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"2111\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1799\" data-end=\"1817\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> I was sat in Mission Bar next to this poor man, and I was just endlessly complaining about this. And he just kept saying, “Well, you know, San Francisco’s a Gold Rush town. Maybe there weren’t women here. Maybe they just didn’t get here till later.” And just in my gut, I knew it wasn’t right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2156\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2113\" data-end=\"2127\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> You’re like, “Wrong answer.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2377\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2176\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Yeah. No, that can’t be right. And so I stopped doing the usual thing that I wrote about and became a history writer, which was a learning curve—going from Beyoncé to that. But it paid off in the end.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2379\" data-end=\"2625\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2379\" data-end=\"2393\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, the way the book is organized is you have little vignettes about 35 women, and they range from, as I said in the introduction, activists to health care workers and beyond. It spans from the 19th century to the 21st century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2627\" data-end=\"2996\">And I wanted to start with some women involved in cooking, because we often think—or are told—that the kitchen is a woman’s place, and yet there are so few professional women chefs, or not as many as we think there should be. You begin early in the book with a woman who was the second Black woman to write a cookbook: Abby Fisher. Tell us a little bit about her story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3231\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2998\" data-end=\"3016\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> So Abby Fisher grew up enslaved on a plantation in South Carolina. From the time she could see over the stove, she was in the kitchen, so she learned absolutely everything there is to know about Southern cooking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3233\" data-end=\"3500\">When she and her family moved to California, people in the Bay Area had never had anything like her food, so she was an instant hit. She and her husband had a pickles and preserves company that won multiple prestigious awards, so she became well known very quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3502\" data-end=\"3944\">Then she was approached by the Women’s Cooperative Printing Office, which used to be in downtown San Francisco. They said, “Why don’t you write a cookbook? We’d love to hear your recipes.” And she, of course, had never learned to read or write. So they got creative—they brought in nine volunteers, and she basically dictated the cookbook to them, and they transcribed it. That’s how they got around it. And that book is still in print today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3946\" data-end=\"4003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3946\" data-end=\"3960\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And I think it’s called—what is it called?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4005\" data-end=\"4076\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4005\" data-end=\"4023\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> \u003cem data-start=\"4024\" data-end=\"4075\">What Mrs. Fisher Knows About Old Southern Cooking\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4078\" data-end=\"4092\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, it’s pretty awesome. And because she dictated the book, and a lot of the recipes were Southern and unfamiliar to these West Coast volunteers, there are some pretty funny typos in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4285\" data-end=\"4540\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4285\" data-end=\"4303\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> And I love the fact that they still haven’t been corrected. My favorite one—because no one knew what succotash was—is that it’s written as “circuit hash.” Jambalaya is listed as “jumbelaya,” and mayonnaise is listed as “Milanese sauce.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"4615\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4542\" data-end=\"4556\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, that does make mayo sound a little better—fancier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4617\" data-end=\"4647\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4617\" data-end=\"4635\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4828\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4649\" data-end=\"4663\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Another aspect of that cookbook that’s interesting is it really elucidates how enslaved people used remedies and food to help cure ailments and take care of others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4830\" data-end=\"5154\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4830\" data-end=\"4848\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It’s a remarkable document for that. There are multiple recipes—she was raising kids on a plantation—and for her to come up with these remedies, like how to help your children when they have a fever or a stomach upset, using only ingredients from the kitchen and what she had access to, is really amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5156\" data-end=\"5297\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5156\" data-end=\"5170\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I thought her recipe for blackberry syrup for dysentery—I’m like, I would just put that in a cocktail and be very happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5299\" data-end=\"5436\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5299\" data-end=\"5317\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> The pie recipes in this book really do sound delicious. I’m not a cook myself, but if I was, I’d have given them a go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5438\" data-end=\"5683\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5438\" data-end=\"5452\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. Well, we’re talking about unsung heroines of the Bay Area with Rae Alexandra. She’s a staff writer with KQED’s Arts and Culture Desk, and her new book is \u003cem data-start=\"5619\" data-end=\"5680\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5685\" data-end=\"5891\">And we’d love to hear from you. Who is an unsung heroine whose story you think should be told? Is it your mom, a friend, a colleague? Who’s a woman—historical or contemporary—that you admire? Tell us why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5893\" data-end=\"6145\">You can give us a call now at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email your comments and questions to \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6003\" data-end=\"6017\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—Bluesky, Instagram—we’re @kqedforum. And there’s always our Discord community, so please write in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6147\" data-end=\"6336\">Another woman in the cooking frame is Elena Zelayeta, and I think she might be responsible for one of the first restaurant pop-ups in the early 20th century. Tell us a little bit about her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6338\" data-end=\"6585\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6338\" data-end=\"6356\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Elena had been a secretary until the Great Depression, but she lost her job. Her husband, who was a structural engineer, also lost his job. So she came up with the idea of turning their North Beach apartment into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6587\" data-end=\"6788\">The food was so popular so quickly that they ended up with people standing in the stairwell all night, every night. She worked from 5 a.m. to midnight, and she popularized Mexican food in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6849\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6790\" data-end=\"6804\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> And she wrote a lot of cookbooks too, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6851\" data-end=\"7185\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6851\" data-end=\"6869\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> She did. She opened the restaurant in 1930, and within the first few years, she’d written her first cookbook—and it sold half a million copies. Which, given that during the Depression there was so much hostility toward Mexican immigrants because of the job shortage, speaks to how delicious her food must have been.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7187\" data-end=\"7283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7187\" data-end=\"7201\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It must have been. She’s like the precursor to the Mission’s Tamale Lady, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7285\" data-end=\"7335\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7285\" data-end=\"7303\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> Oh, 100 percent. Yeah—Virginia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7337\" data-end=\"7410\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7337\" data-end=\"7351\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Yeah. And didn’t she have a TV show as well at some point?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7412\" data-end=\"7693\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7412\" data-end=\"7430\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> She did. The apartment restaurant eventually turned into a brick-and-mortar restaurant in Union Square, inside the King George Hotel. Then in 1934, she suddenly went blind, so she had to close the restaurant. The other chefs working for her weren’t as popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7695\" data-end=\"7967\">When she finally recovered, she went back to teaching in schools for the blind. Then in 1944, she was so well known that KGO-TV, which was brand new in San Francisco, gave her her own television show. She did that with her son, and it was called \u003cem data-start=\"7941\" data-end=\"7964\">Fun to Eat with Elena\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7969\" data-end=\"8224\">This was a very basic setup—for example, when producers wanted her to turn toward a different camera, they tugged on strings attached to her ankles because they couldn’t think of another way to communicate with her. So this woman was incredibly resilient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8226\" data-end=\"8362\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8226\" data-end=\"8240\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> I mean, she’s blind, she’s cooking as a blind person with her son, and she has a TV show. It sounds like a Netflix drama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8364\" data-end=\"8460\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8364\" data-end=\"8382\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It’s really wild. I think a lot of women in this book deserve Netflix dramas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8462\" data-end=\"8604\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8462\" data-end=\"8476\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> It would be awesome if they could get that. So having investigated these stories, did it change how you felt about these women?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8606\" data-end=\"8708\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8606\" data-end=\"8624\">Rae Alexandra:\u003c/strong> It changed how I felt about this entire region—and the history of it as we know it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8710\" data-end=\"9051\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8710\" data-end=\"8724\">Grace Won:\u003c/strong> Well, we’re going to hear more from Rae Alexandra, whose new book is \u003cem data-start=\"8794\" data-end=\"8855\">Unsung Heroines: Thirty-Five Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em>. And we want to hear from you. Who’s an unsung heroine in your life? Is it your mom, a friend, a colleague, a sister, an aunt? Who is a woman—historical or contemporary—who you admire, and why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9053\" data-end=\"9125\">Call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. Or email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9108\" data-end=\"9122\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9127\" data-end=\"9219\">A listener on Bluesky writes, “Dianne Feinstein was one of the greatest politicians ever.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9221\" data-end=\"9283\">I’m Grace Won, in for Alexis Madrigal. More after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Historian Ibram X. Kendi says that in order to understand the rise of authoritarianism, we need to understand great replacement theory. It’s the racist idea that “powerful elites are enabling peoples of color to steal the lives, livelihoods, cultures and electoral power and freedoms of white people,” Kendi writes in his new book, “Chain of Ideas: The Origins of Our Authoritarian Age.” We talk to the National Book Award-winning author about how politicians are using great replacement theory to justify authoritarian power and how it has moved from the fringes to the mainstream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’ve wondered how we entered this modern age of authoritarianism, historian and bestselling author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Ibram X. Kendi says the “great replacement theory” has played no small part. He argues that the racist idea—that shadowy elites are enabling people of color to replace or steal the livelihoods, cultures, and electoral power of white people—is a key ideological driver of our authoritarian age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chain of Ideas\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Kendi examines the resurgence of this conspiracy theory over the last two and a half decades in hopes of helping the country change course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Kendi is a professor of history at Howard University and joins me now. Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ibram, you say that you didn’t find the subject of the book—the subject found you. What did you mean by that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I meant is that my work has focused on the history of racism, including writing \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. What I didn’t realize when that book came out in 2019 was that there was already a political movement organized around “great replacement theory” that viewed antiracism as its primary antagonist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This goes back to 2011, when a French novelist, Renaud Camus, published \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Great Replacement\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He later wrote \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Will Not Replace Us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, echoing the chant heard in Charlottesville in 2017. In both books, he positions antiracism as the force that these authoritarians are fighting against.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had no idea this framing existed when I was writing my earlier work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So they were essentially arguing that being antiracist equates to being anti-white. And by “they,” who do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m referring to people who promote “great replacement theory”—the idea that people of color are coming to displace the lives and livelihoods of white people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A central claim is that antiracism isn’t about equal opportunity, that diversity isn’t about mutual respect, and that multiculturalism isn’t about shared coexistence. Instead, they argue these ideas are meant to harm or replace white people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s one of the core falsehoods at the center of the theory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And how do you think this has ushered in our authoritarian age? Does it create a sense that people need a “strongman” figure—often how Donald Trump is described—to protect them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. If people are led to believe that immigrants—particularly Black and brown immigrants—are invading the country, that they’re criminals, that they pose a threat, then they’re going to feel endangered.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when people feel their lives are threatened, they look for protection. They’re more likely to support leaders who promise security—even if that means giving up certain rights and freedoms. That’s how authoritarianism can take hold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These ideas about immigrants stealing jobs or causing demographic change have been around for a long time. As you note, versions of replacement theory underpinned Nazism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But you mentioned Renaud Camus, whose work is more recent. His framing of “great replacement theory” really emerged in the late 1990s through the early 2010s, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. And one important thing to understand is that ideas can exist long before they’re named.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Great replacement theory” as a concept dates back to the late 19th century and was central to extremist ideologies, including Nazi Germany. But it’s in the last two decades that it has reemerged with renewed force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Camus gave it a name in 2011, and since then, it has spread globally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s based on a false premise, right? He observed more people of color in a French town and interpreted that as displacement, even though those communities had been there for decades?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I open \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chain of Ideas\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with that story. Camus describes visiting a town in southern France where he sees people he perceives as immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In reality, they made up a very small share of the population—around 4 percent. But he imagined that they were “invading” and “replacing” the so-called indigenous white population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he framed this as evidence of a “great replacement” that needed to be resisted, despite the demographic reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you noticed a resurgence of “great replacement theory”? If so, why do you think it’s taken hold again? Have you encountered it in your social media feeds—or even among family or friends? And if so, how do you respond?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also share whether Kendi’s work has changed how you think about race and racism in the U.S. His books \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stamped from the Beginning\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have had a wide impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email us at forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to play a clip of then-candidate Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Delaware in September 2024, where he touches on ideas related to this theory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And they’re taking over our country. You see what they’re doing. Kamala Harris’s border invasion is also crushing the jobs and wages of African American workers and Hispanic American workers—and also union members. Unions are next, you watch. They’re hurting African American workers and Hispanic workers in particular. They’re taking your jobs. Every job produced in this country over the last two years has gone to illegal aliens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Every job produced in this country over the last two years has gone to illegal aliens,” according to that clip.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sorry, Ibram—you wanted to jump in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That statement reflects elements of “great replacement theory.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would also add that when elected officials are backed by wealthy interests whose policies may contribute to economic hardship, they have an incentive to redirect blame. Rather than people blaming those in power, they’re encouraged to blame immigrants, Muslims, or Black Americans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This creates a cycle: people experience economic struggle, they’re told to blame other marginalized groups, and that division allows those in power to maintain control. That’s part of the dynamic I describe in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chain of Ideas\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Another interesting aspect of that clip—and we’ll talk more about this after the break—is that Trump frames the issue as affecting African American workers, Hispanic workers, and union members.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve also argued that “great replacement theory” isn’t limited to the far right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with Ibram X. Kendi after the break. Stay with us. This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 17 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Historian Ibram X. Kendi says that in order to understand the rise of authoritarianism, we need to understand great replacement theory. It’s the racist idea that “powerful elites are enabling peoples of color to steal the lives, livelihoods, cultures and electoral power and freedoms of white people,” Kendi writes in his new book, “Chain of Ideas: The Origins of Our Authoritarian Age.” We talk to the National Book Award-winning author about how politicians are using great replacement theory to justify authoritarian power and how it has moved from the fringes to the mainstream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’ve wondered how we entered this modern age of authoritarianism, historian and bestselling author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Ibram X. Kendi says the “great replacement theory” has played no small part. He argues that the racist idea—that shadowy elites are enabling people of color to replace or steal the livelihoods, cultures, and electoral power of white people—is a key ideological driver of our authoritarian age.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chain of Ideas\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Kendi examines the resurgence of this conspiracy theory over the last two and a half decades in hopes of helping the country change course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dr. Kendi is a professor of history at Howard University and joins me now. Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ibram, you say that you didn’t find the subject of the book—the subject found you. What did you mean by that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What I meant is that my work has focused on the history of racism, including writing \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. What I didn’t realize when that book came out in 2019 was that there was already a political movement organized around “great replacement theory” that viewed antiracism as its primary antagonist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This goes back to 2011, when a French novelist, Renaud Camus, published \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Great Replacement\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He later wrote \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Will Not Replace Us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, echoing the chant heard in Charlottesville in 2017. In both books, he positions antiracism as the force that these authoritarians are fighting against.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I had no idea this framing existed when I was writing my earlier work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So they were essentially arguing that being antiracist equates to being anti-white. And by “they,” who do you mean?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m referring to people who promote “great replacement theory”—the idea that people of color are coming to displace the lives and livelihoods of white people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A central claim is that antiracism isn’t about equal opportunity, that diversity isn’t about mutual respect, and that multiculturalism isn’t about shared coexistence. Instead, they argue these ideas are meant to harm or replace white people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s one of the core falsehoods at the center of the theory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And how do you think this has ushered in our authoritarian age? Does it create a sense that people need a “strongman” figure—often how Donald Trump is described—to protect them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. If people are led to believe that immigrants—particularly Black and brown immigrants—are invading the country, that they’re criminals, that they pose a threat, then they’re going to feel endangered.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when people feel their lives are threatened, they look for protection. They’re more likely to support leaders who promise security—even if that means giving up certain rights and freedoms. That’s how authoritarianism can take hold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These ideas about immigrants stealing jobs or causing demographic change have been around for a long time. As you note, versions of replacement theory underpinned Nazism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But you mentioned Renaud Camus, whose work is more recent. His framing of “great replacement theory” really emerged in the late 1990s through the early 2010s, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. And one important thing to understand is that ideas can exist long before they’re named.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Great replacement theory” as a concept dates back to the late 19th century and was central to extremist ideologies, including Nazi Germany. But it’s in the last two decades that it has reemerged with renewed force.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Camus gave it a name in 2011, and since then, it has spread globally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s based on a false premise, right? He observed more people of color in a French town and interpreted that as displacement, even though those communities had been there for decades?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. I open \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chain of Ideas\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> with that story. Camus describes visiting a town in southern France where he sees people he perceives as immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In reality, they made up a very small share of the population—around 4 percent. But he imagined that they were “invading” and “replacing” the so-called indigenous white population.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he framed this as evidence of a “great replacement” that needed to be resisted, despite the demographic reality.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I want to invite listeners into the conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you noticed a resurgence of “great replacement theory”? If so, why do you think it’s taken hold again? Have you encountered it in your social media feeds—or even among family or friends? And if so, how do you respond?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also share whether Kendi’s work has changed how you think about race and racism in the U.S. His books \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How to Be an Antiracist\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stamped from the Beginning\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have had a wide impact.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email us at forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I want to play a clip of then-candidate Donald Trump at a campaign rally in Delaware in September 2024, where he touches on ideas related to this theory.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Donald Trump (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And they’re taking over our country. You see what they’re doing. Kamala Harris’s border invasion is also crushing the jobs and wages of African American workers and Hispanic American workers—and also union members. Unions are next, you watch. They’re hurting African American workers and Hispanic workers in particular. They’re taking your jobs. Every job produced in this country over the last two years has gone to illegal aliens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “Every job produced in this country over the last two years has gone to illegal aliens,” according to that clip.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sorry, Ibram—you wanted to jump in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ibram X. Kendi:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. That statement reflects elements of “great replacement theory.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would also add that when elected officials are backed by wealthy interests whose policies may contribute to economic hardship, they have an incentive to redirect blame. Rather than people blaming those in power, they’re encouraged to blame immigrants, Muslims, or Black Americans.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This creates a cycle: people experience economic struggle, they’re told to blame other marginalized groups, and that division allows those in power to maintain control. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"marketplace": {
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"politicalbreakdown": {
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
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"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
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