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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis, a researcher at Education Northwest, found out her 10-year-old son had made a sad playlist to cope with his best friend moving away. He’d listen to it at night and cry himself to sleep. “It just kind of crushed me,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Davis had known the transition would be tough, but she hadn’t realized just how deep the loss would feel. Like many adults, she underestimated how intense \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65569/the-secret-to-staying-best-friends-forever-dont-deep-score\">childhood friendships\u003c/a> – and their endings – can be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friendship “breakups” are a common part of growing up. One \u003ca href=\"https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30558749/\">study of sixth graders\u003c/a> in the Los Angeles Unified School District found that two-thirds of students changed friend groups between September and June. These shifts often happen during big transitions, like starting middle or high school or developing new interests. But just because they’re common doesn’t mean they’re easy, especially during adolescence, which neuroscientists define as the period from age 10 to 25.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://lydiadenworth.com/\">Science journalist Lydia Denworth\u003c/a> has spent years researching how friendships develop across the lifespan. She says the adolescent brain is especially tuned into social dynamics. “Friendship is everything,” she said. “When it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.” Different situations call for different kinds of support. Denworth offers insights on how adults can show up thoughtfully when friendships shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Talk About Friendship Early\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Denworth encourages adults to be proactive about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63184/when-parents-know-these-4-phases-of-friendship-they-can-help-their-child-make-friends-more-easily\">supporting kids’ friendships\u003c/a>. That means talking about what healthy friendship looks like even when everything seems fine. “We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities,” she said. “We should be talking about [friendship] at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63456/6-ways-educators-can-bolster-boys-social-skills\">Friendship is a skill set\u003c/a>, according to Denworth, and kids don’t automatically arrive with all the tools they need. A healthy friendship, she added, is positive, long-lasting and cooperative with mutual kindness, emotional support and reciprocity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Martin Luther King Jr. Middle School in Berkeley, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/59757/with-classroom-behavior-issues-on-the-rise-restorative-justice-offers-solutions\">restorative justice counselor\u003c/a> Chau Tran tells students early in the school year that she’s available to help with friendship issues. She’s learned that small miscommunications can quickly snowball. Support from adults can help students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/65502/how-better-conversations-can-help-fight-misinformation-and-build-media-literacy\">express themselves clearly\u003c/a> and set better boundaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At this age, they’re still kind of learning how to navigate a conflict. They’re still figuring out how to speak their truth while also learning how to sit and actively listen,” Tran said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When a Kid Is Going Through a Breakup\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>If a child is being broken up with, it’s natural for adults to want to fix it. But Denworth says the best thing adults can do is slow down and validate the hurt. She noted that there is a tendency to minimize the pain, but developmentally their brains are responding to this social change differently than adults. “knowing that should help us\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/64516/to-raise-empathetic-children-parents-must-practice-empathy-themselves\"> have more empathy\u003c/a>,” said Denworth. “I’d say, ‘Yeah, this really hurts.’ And then just let it. Let it hurt, but be there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s necessary for kids to go through these experiences as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/57010/how-understanding-middle-school-friendships-can-help-students\">part of the growing up process\u003c/a>. Where adults can be helpful is by providing some context and talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time, according to Denworth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saachi, a 14-year-old in Menlo Park, experienced a painful friendship fallout during her freshman year. “I just noticed they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me,” she said. Saachi was sad and confused, but she appreciated how her mom helped by staying calm and sharing similar stories from her own life. She encouraged Saachi to connect with other students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups,” Saachi said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>When Your Kid Is the One Ending Things\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Friendship breakups can also be hard for the person doing the breaking up. Isabel, 17, ended a friendship in high school. “When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more concerning signs,” Isabel said, adding that their friend would do things without caring about consequences. “That’s where I was like, I’m not comfortable with that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Isabel didn’t talk to an adult about it because they had bad experiences with adults brushing it off in the past. They sent a text to end the friendship, then wrestled with guilt and doubt for weeks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Denworth said that’s where parents can help—not by deciding whether a friendship should end, but by helping kids think through how they’re ending it. She recommends that parents check in with kids about whether they are being kind when they break things off with a friend. “That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty,” Denworth said. “And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>If you have more time, you can plan\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leanne Davis’s son is facing another friend’s move this year, but this time, she’s planning ahead. Knowing her son and how deep his reactions were when his last friend moved away is making her think about ways that she can support him during what she knows will be a hard transition. “We’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time for them to be together,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is helping her son and his friend make time to create things so that they both have tangible memories of the friendship. Additionally they are planning for what her son might send his friend when the friend moves away. “So that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of the joy in their friendship,” added Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is also ensuring lines of communication like texting or online messaging are established so that her son and his friend can communicate after the move, even if their communication eventually peters out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like so many parents, Davis is figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing. So far, there is no perfect formula. “We need to be prepared to support him and who he is and the reactions that he’s going to have,” said Davis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3169186124\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. Think back to when you were a kid—did you ever have a good friend move away? One day you’re hanging out at recess, planning your next sleepover, and then suddenly… they’re just gone. No more playdates, No more inside jokes, and no say in the matter. How unfair is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Leanne Davis, a parent in Washington State, watched her 10 year old son go through exactly that not too long ago WHEN His good friend moved to Spain. To Leanne’s surprise, her son grieved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> He made himself a sad playlist on Spotify. He listens to his playlist when he’s feeling like just really in his emotions about his friend and like his friend leaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She caught him listening to it at night, crying himself to sleep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> It just kind of crushed me and then I realized like how important this these friendships were and it actually wasn’t something that we were talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Today on MindShift, we’re diving into the ups and downs of friendship breakups—and how the adults in kids’ lives can help them navigate it. We’ll hear from Leanne, researchers, and teens about how to strike the right balance. All that after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a kid loses a friend, it can feel heartbreaking—for them and for the parent trying to support them. But these shifts in friendship are not only common they are actually expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Science journalist Lydia Denworth has spent years researching how friendships develop and function throughout all stages of life. She says that friendship during adolescence — a period neuroscientists define as spanning ages 10 to 25 — is especially unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> In adolescence in particular, the brain is. Undergoing a lot of change. Most of which makes you far more attentive to social cues, to friendship, to what everybody else is doing, what they might think of you. And it’s just it’s all about friends, friends, friends, friends, friends, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That hyper-focus on friends is biological. And it’s a growing up process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We want adolescents to begin to explore life outside their immediate family. We want them to learn to be independent and to take some risks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And the focus on friends and the importance of their social lives is part of that. It’s finding their way in the larger social world and making sense of their own identity within that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s common for students to go through big friendship breakups when they are going through a school transition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>One of the studies that I think is most surprising was done with thousands of middle schoolers in the Los Angeles School Unified School District, and they found that two thirds of sixth graders changed friends from September to June.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Kids make friends where they spend their time—on the soccer field, in the band room, at robotics club. And as interests change, friendships can too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>When kids are going through it, or if you went through that in sixth grade or seventh grade, you thought it was only you, right? That was that was losing your friends or feeling at sea a little bit or getting interested in—maybe you’re the you were the kid or your kid is the one who is seeking out the new relationships. But the the really important message is just how normal that is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, a 14 year old from Menlo Park, had a close knit group of friends when she started high school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We had come from middle school we all knew each other so we were just like, okay, like we’re gonna stick together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> A few months into the school year, something shifted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I just noticed like they were giving signs that they just didn’t want to hang around me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> They would be talking to people and then i would try to talk to them, and be like oh hey like what would we like just like telling them about stuff that happened um throughout the school day and then they would just like look at me like oh yeah whatever like uh-huh uh-uh and like quickly like turn away and like dismiss me constantly and i was just like they didn’t really acknowledge my presence anymore. It was as if like I just wasn’t really there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: It was especially painful because their friendship had once felt effortless—full of energy and care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> We used to like talk so much like if we had if like one of us had something to say like we would sit there we’d listen we’d have like so much to say about the other person’s like story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When that dynamic disappeared, it left Saachi feeling something she didn’t expect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>I was kind of sad, but I was more so confused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> I would have liked to know what they were thinking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon: \u003c/strong>If they had just talked to me you know maybe we would have still been friends i don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In Saachi’s case, she was left to piece together what went wrong. In other cases, ending the friendship is a conscious choice. Isabel Daniels, a 17 year old, shared their story\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>I met this friend like pretty much in like middle school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>This friendship, it’s, like, Oh, someone finally understands me and like, we finally see each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Isabel was drawn to their friend’s free spirit—the way they didn’t seem weighed down by other people’s opinions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>When this friend got more comfortable with me, they started showing more like…concerning signs, like that lack of care for how society thinks it’s like a double edged sword and so it’s nice in a way that like, oh, you’re free from these and expectations, but also you don’t. Like you don’t care about consequences, which can lead to a lot of like dangerous behavior. And that’s where I was like, I’m not like comfortable with that. Just because I also don’t like being labeled or having a lot of expectations put on me, it doesn’t mean I’m want to go out of my way and be like a menace in like a not fun and silly way\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> What began as carefree fun started to feel unsafe. Isabel knew they needed to end the friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>It’s like fun while it lasts, but then you realize that fun comes with a cost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When the time came to break things off, Isabel didn’t feel like they could do it in person.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I unfortunately broke up with this friend over text, blocked their number and then didn’t look back after that which only added to the guilt, because I didn’t give this friend a chance to explain, to give their piece. Like we didn’t have a conversation. I just like sent it, blocked, and then tried to move on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Isabel was certain the friendship needed to end, and they haven’t talked to the friend since, but they were left with lingering questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> What if, like, what would this person say? Could have things been different if we both just talked?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Even though Isabel was grappling with some big questions, they did not reach out for support.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was very against asking help, especially from adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>To Isabel, adults didn’t feel like a helpful option. They worried they wouldn’t be understood, or that the advice would miss the nuance of what they were going through.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels: \u003c/strong>Things tend to be watered down when you are talking to someone older than you because they view you as like oh you’re just not like fully mentally developed you just haven’t um seen life enough and that this is just part of that, but these are significant moments in our life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had memories of adults falling short when it came to helping with friendships. For example, Isabel has this story from when they were younger\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Isabel Daniels:\u003c/strong> I was telling an adult that this kid was being a bit too rough with me when we were playing. This kid was a boy so you know what the adults told me? Oh that just means he likes you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lydia Denworth, the science journalist we heard from earlier, has some helpful insights about where adults often go wrong—and what they can do instead. She recommends adults have conversations with kids about friendship before things go wrong.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We should be talking about that at least as much as we’re talking about what you got on your math test or, you know, whether you got the main lead role in the musical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We ask about their grades, we ask about their activities and what they’re doing. And we put pressure on those things and we want to know about their friends too, but what we don’t realize is that\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> We can help kids understand that friendship is a set of social skills and that it is those are skills that we benefit from practice and that kids don’t necessarily come into the world having all of them ready to go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Defining what a good and healthy friendship looks like early on can not only help them have stronger friendships, but also better romantic and family relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> A really good quality friendship has three things. It’s long lasting, it’s positive and it’s cooperative. So that means that a good friend is a steady, stable presence in your life. They make you feel good. So they’re kind. They say nice things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>And then the co operative piece is the reciprocity, the the back and forth, the helpfulness, the sort of showing up and listening and and not having a relationship that’s lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And just because someone’s been your friend for a long time, doesn’t mean they’re still a good friend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The longer term relationships we often just sort of stick with because we have that shared history piece. But if they’re not positive any more, if they’re not making you feel better, then they might not be a really healthy relationship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When a child is experiencing a friendship breakup, Lydia suggests adults resist the urge to fix it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>You can’t necessarily just make it all better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>We need to understand that kids need to go through these experiences and this process. But where adults can be helpful is by providing some context, by talking about the fact that there will be a lot of change in friendships over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That also means validating the pain kids are feeling. It’ll be hard, but don’t jump in and convince kids that it isn’t a big deal. Downplaying the situation is well intentioned but it can backfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>I spoke earlier about how much the adolescent brain is changing. It’s almost at the same level that a toddler’s brain is changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> The result is that not only are they really primed for social things, but they’re also their emotions are literally heightened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Friendship is everything. And so when it’s going well, that matters hugely. And when it’s going badly, sometimes they can’t think about anything else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In other words the feelings that kids are bringing to their social relationships are real for them and they aren’t the same for us adults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Literally our brains are responding differently and knowing that should help us have more empathy\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> I’d say, Yeah, this really hurts. You know, I’m. And then just just let it, let it hurt like and, but be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And if a child wants to keep talking you can follow their lead by sharing your own experiences with friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth: \u003c/strong>Talk about maybe a time that you had a friendship that that fell apart or where somebody got hurt and what you did to mend it if you did or or why you didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Saachi, the freshman I talked to earlier, told me that she appreciated the way her mom did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> My mom she’s always been a very like calm individual like it takes a lot to tip her over the edge like she’s very like she wasn’t freaking out because she’s had a lot of like life experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She’s like i had friends like that like i dealt with that and it’s just like she was calm and that made me calm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>When her mom said she’d eventually make new friends who treated her better, Saachi wasn’t so sure. But she tried to talk to new people in her classes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Saachi Kaur Dhillon:\u003c/strong> She was right, because I made a lot of new friends in high school. And I’m glad I was able to branch out because of those friendship breakups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>If your child is the one ending a friendship, it’s worth checking in—not to control their choice, but to help them think through how they’re doing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> Are they being kind? Are they being thoughtful? That doesn’t mean feelings won’t get hurt. But but there’s no need to be unnecessarily nasty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lydia Denworth:\u003c/strong> And I do think it’s really important for parents to set some ground rules about how we treat other people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Let’s return to Leanne Davis, the mom we heard from earlier. When she saw how hard her son took the loss, she realized she’d underestimated the seriousness of childhood friendships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> I moved a lot as an adult. My husband moved a a lot and I think we were tending, it took us a couple steps to be like, well, wait a minute, this is this kid and this kid is very different than other kid and. very different than maybe how we would do this. I need to be prepared to support him and who he is and like the reactions that he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>This year another one of her son’s friends is moving away. And …this kid can’t catch a break…his friend is moving to Australia. But this time, Leanne is thinking about it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Now, knowing that this is happening and this is gonna be really rough we’re just trying to make sure that we’re building in a lot of time, for them to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She’s helping him make memories—something tangible to remember the friendship by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis:\u003c/strong> Finding ways to like document some of their memories and things they’re doing together. Like he and I are planning for what would he like to send his friend when his friend leaves, or something that he’d like to make that, you know, that when he sees it, it reminds him of him and reminds him of like the joy in their friendship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And she’s also planning for what happens after the move.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Leanne Davis: \u003c/strong>He does text his friends, like on, he can like message him from the computer. So making sure that they’re able to communicate that way. and that it’s established before they leave, knowing that it may eventually fade out, but that that’s a way for them to know that they can get in touch with each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Like so many parents, Leanne’s figuring out how to walk the line between supportive and overbearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And maybe that’s the real work of showing up for kids—not having the perfect response, but staying close enough to notice what they need, and giving them space to figure the rest out themselves. Because in the end, friendship breakups are just part of growing up. But having someone who sees you through it can make all the difference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kyle, a 10th grader at Palo Alto High School, walked into his final debate of the day, he was hoping for an easy finish to a long tournament. Instead, he found himself face-to-face with an opponent known for being challenging and loud. “The entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs,” Kyle recalled. “It really tested my ability to stay calm. There were so many times I wanted to scream back, but I didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyle’s experience isn’t unique. From school board meetings to online comment sections, many people have been in situations where emotions take over and voices rise. At a time when \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">public discourse often feels combative and chaotic\u003c/a>, high school speech and debate helps students learn how to stay composed in these moments, to speak with intention, and to listen when tensions run high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Speech and debate offers this amazing gift,” said Kyle Hietala, a speech and debate coach at Palo Alto High School. “No matter what event you’re in, you’re guaranteed a set amount of time to speak. No interruptions. No shouting over you. Your voice will be heard.” Additionally, speech and debate allows students to experiment with different communication styles, source reliable information and practice public speaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Kyle, the student, the experience has been transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandfather once called me wishy-washy, which I interpret as him saying I didn’t really mean it when I said something,” he said. But after joining speech and debate, he improved his communication skills in several ways. “I became more confident, less shy; it got easier to get my point across.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Learning to Think Critically About Information\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Speech and debate can teach students how to think critically about the information they use to build an argument, which. includes learning how to evaluate sources. Fewer young people rely on traditional news, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/fact-sheet/social-media-and-news-fact-sheet/\">many Gen Z students get information from social media platforms\u003c/a> where algorithms can reinforce existing beliefs. But that approach won’t work in a debate round. Since students are expected to back up their claims with credible sources, they quickly learn the difference between reliable information and content that won’t hold up under scrutiny. If a student cites a TikTok in a debate, their opponent will be quick to call it “not verifiable,” said Priya Garcia, a speech and debate coach at Leland High School\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Removing social media as a primary source is one of several ways speech and debate can expand students’ information diets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re forced to passionately engage in a bunch of research and learn more about the world overall,” said Samit, a twelfth grader from Nueva School. “You aren’t biased by social media because you’ve done the research and advocated for the perspectives that go both for and against that media.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students may not always change their minds, but they become more aware of what shapes their thinking as they question their assumptions, consider multiple viewpoints, and build arguments rooted in evidence. “I didn’t keep up with the news when I started high school,” said Tessa, a student at Palo Alto High School who reads the news daily. “Now I feel so much more educated about what’s going on around me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding the Right Format for Every Student\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The range of events available in high school speech and debate clubs allows students to find formats that suit their unique personalities, research styles, and interests. Coach Garcia compares it to track and field. Students can pick and choose the events that fit them best and they can do more than one, she said. For example, a student who enjoys philosophical questions might gravitate toward Lincoln-Douglas debate, which focuses on moral and ethical dilemmas. Someone more interested in current events might choose policy debate, which centers on government action and real-world proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although students are often assigned a side in debate events, they usually study both sides of the issue to prepare counterarguments and strengthen their position. “You’re open to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/50983/how-debate-structures-allow-english-learners-brilliance-to-shine\">more arguments and more sources\u003c/a>. It kind of opens you up to a lot more ideas,” said Narendra, a twelfth grader from Archbishop Mitty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/52590/why-debate-may-be-the-best-way-to-save-constructive-disagreement\">grow by exploring different sides of an argument\u003c/a>, coaches understand that not everyone is comfortable defending an argument they do not agree with. “If a student is hesitant to defend a position they don’t agree with,” said Garcia, “We’ll often guide them toward a speech event, or something like Congressional Debate. It’s called a debate, but it allows for a lot more personal choice in what topics students prepare and argue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garcia said usually students’ beliefs do not hamper their ability to debate. “Having opinions isn’t a bad thing. It can actually fuel their research.” She encourages students to use their discomfort as a tool for deeper inquiry and ask themselves questions like, “What are the sub-arguments on this side of the resolution that make me feel weird or uneasy? Why do I feel that way? And how can I find sources that still support my side, but in a way that aligns with my values?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Facing the Fear and Finding Your Voice\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Debate isn’t just for extroverts. In fact, many quieter or more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62119/how-extroverted-teachers-can-engage-introverted-students\">introverted students thrive\u003c/a> in debate. Their thoughtfulness often becomes an asset in constructing well-reasoned, creative arguments, said coach Hietala.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6447508/#:~:text=Age%2Dof%2Donset%20data%20point,lead%20to%20better%20treatment%20outcomes.\">Fear of public speaking is common, especially for teenagers\u003c/a>. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students noted that speech and debate gave them the tools to work through that fear, even in interpersonal relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alejandro, a ninth grade student from Palo Alto High School, said that he’s always liked to talk, but since starting speech and debate his confidence has expanded. “I’m confident about talking not just about jokes and funny things, but actually about complicated topics and sad topics,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who participate in debate may still get nervous when they speak. However, they learn that nervousness is something they can work through. “Speech and debate has definitely helped me control my own emotions around that,” said Motoko, a student at Palo Alto High School. “I’m more comfortable talking in front of people and sharing my own ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5130606911\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I walk into Palo Alto High School, the energy is electric. I’ve been to basketball games, school plays, even science fairs, but I’ve never seen anything quite like this. This is a high school debate tournament. Students in suits pace the hallways, whispering arguments under their breath. Some are huddled over laptops, scrolling through pages of notes. Others repeatedly refresh a website, waiting to see their next opponent. And in a few minutes, I’m about to step into my first round as a spectator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’ll be watching Holden, a senior at Palo Alto High School, debate a student from another school. When I talked to Holden a few weeks before, it was over Zoom. He was casual, funny, and relaxed. But today, as I spot him across the crowded school hallway, he’s buttoned-up in a suit, laptop in hand. He looks focused\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> It can be kind of stressful when you’re waiting for results to come out or you’re just waiting for the next round to drop, which I’m waiting for right now. But kind of distracting yourself with other things and not focusing on debate all the time is very, very helpful, especially since you’re at these tournaments for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In speech and debate clubs across the country, students like Holden are learning to craft strong, structured arguments—they’re developing skills that will serve them well in school, careers, and life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program everyone in the hallway is refreshing tells students where to go, who they’ll be debating, and which side of the argument they’ll take. Holden sees his opponent’s name pop up—Hannah. He’s met her in other tournaments before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Hannah’s a really great debater and so I think overall, yeah she, I mean very persuasive, very articulate, so we’ll see, I have no clue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He shuts his laptop and motions for me to follow him. We weave through the crowd to a classroom where two judges sit at student desks. Hannah, also in a suit, is poised with her laptop open. The room is expectant, a little tense. Then, the round begins with Hannah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> This will be a six minute affirmative speech. I’ll just be going over my contentions. And time starts now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lincoln-Douglas style debate. One person argues for a resolution—a big, philosophical statement—while the other argues against it. Today’s resolution? Well… I’ll let Hannah tell you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. Hannah is arguing for the affirmative. She lays out her case: Artificial General Intelligence – also called AGI- threatens jobs, accelerates inequality, and consumes massive amounts of energy. She cites sources, scanning her laptop while keeping her focus on the judges. Holden listens carefully, scribbling down notes and then stands up for cross-examination, which means he’ll ask Hannah some clarifying questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Let’s first talk about your first contention about economics.You talk about how AGI will replace workers. Could you read me a specific piece of evidence from your case that says that AGI will displace many workers and not just AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> Yes, That’s specifically the first part in the affirmative contention…..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then it’s his turn to argue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden Lee:\u003c/strong> the affirmative must prove that AGI development is inherently that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He counters that AGI can enhance human well-being, improve healthcare, and make agriculture more sustainable. He questions whether AGI development is inherently immoral, pointing out that misuse doesn’t mean the technology itself is bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> There are three main areas AGI would benefit human health: Disease diagnosis, cancer treatment, and drug innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For 40 minutes, they go back and forth, quickly challenging each other’s claims, quoting studies, asking sharp questions. And here’s what surprises me: They’re arguing hard, but they’re listening, too. They don’t interrupt. They engage with each other’s ideas. It’s not the shouting match I’ve come to expect from political debates on TV or the kind of back-and-forth you see online, where people talk past each other instead of truly listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> AGI poses an unprecedented threat to workers and the economy at large. Siphonover25 explains that AGI possesses the capability to fully replace cognitive and physical labor, rendering human employment obsolete across numerous industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I find it very hard to believe that everyone is just going to lose their job with AGI. That’s exactly what people said when tractors and other forms of agriculture, agricultural innovations displaced millions of Americans from the agricultural sector. But Americans aren’t all unemployed today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then, just like that, it’s over. They shake hands, gather their papers, and walk out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah and Holden:\u003c/strong> thanks, good debate\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I find Holden in the hallway after. He looks calm and collected. Meanwhile, as a person who does not like confrontation, I’ve been sweating from just watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I think overall the debate was very high quality, lots of substance, lot of new points that I didn’t prep for and so I had to kind of think on my feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln Douglass debaters know the topic beforehand and they have a few weeks to research it, but they don’t know if they will be asked to argue the affirmative or the negative. Holden could just as easily have been asked to argue the other side. Lincoln-Douglas debaters have to prepare for both positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> The flip -flopping’s kind of hard. You have to get adjusted to it. You have to go from being fervently, you know, denying it, you know, an argument into the affirmative affirmation of it. And so it’s a really good skill to develop, though, to be able to flip -flop and kind of see. just kind of a broader perspective of how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate clubs give students the chance to communicate ideas that might be different from their actual opinions and there’s room for everyone to practice that skill in a way that fits their style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’ll hear from students who specialize in different speech and debate events, explore what keeps them motivated, and ask a bigger question: Could learning to debate make all of us better at having tough conversations? That’s coming up next on MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of us avoid tough conversations. Not because we don’t care, but because we’re afraid. Afraid of being judged, of saying the wrong thing, of facing backlash. But avoiding these conversations doesn’t keep us safe. In fact, it keeps us disconnected. Knowing how to express your views and truly engage with others is a skill that helps students build deeper relationships, shape their thinking, and even change the way they see the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kyle Hietala, one of the debate coaches at Palo Alto High School told me that the structure students have to follow is helpful for making sure everyone can say their piece\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate offers this amazing gift where you are guaranteed an exact number of minutes to speak regardless of the type of speech and debate event that you’re in. You’re guaranteed to not be interrupted or shouted over or shouted down in your speaking time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s uncommon for a debate to go off the rails the way conversations might at a tense Thanksgiving dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> The students generally check each other on it. It’s really rare that I have to step in and kind of say like, Whoa, chill or like let’s step back for a second\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It also helps that there are a variety of speech and debate events, so students can explore what feels best for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to use the comparison of like track and field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Priya Garcia, one of the speech and debate coaches at Leland High School,which is a school that participated in the tournament.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Not every student does shot put, not every student does javelin, not every student does the hurdles like Students get to pick and choose which events are best suited for them. They’re testing out different styles of athleticism and different skills. There’s different preparation involved for each of those track and field events. Speech and debate is similar in that there are, at least on the California level, 17 different events that are available… national level is a little bit different. And I do have students who do a speech event and a debate event\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln-Douglas is about philosophy and big-picture thinking, whereas Policy Debate is a two-on-two debate where teams research and argue for or against a specific policy. Like in this round on the language used when describing abuse in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then there’s Public Forum Debate, which is more like what you might expect from a political debate—teams of two arguing over real-world policy issues. LIke here where students are arguing over us trade agreements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a Public Forum debate]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Everyone has their own style. Some people love the technical aspects of Policy, others like the philosophy of Lincoln-Douglas. And then there are speech events—where you perform, almost like theater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a speech event]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Interestingly enough, when I talked to students who participate in speech and debate about whether they have changed their mind about something, they said no, not really. They described it as more of an expansion of their knowledge about certain topics and ability to think about things in new ways. Here’s Priya\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Most of the time we have students who are able to set aside their personal opinions for the sake of the debate. And for them, for the sake of winning, because that’s what they care about at their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Occasionally, students don’t want to argue for beliefs they disagree with. In that case, a coach might steer them toward a different style of speech or debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> We’ll lean them more towards a speech event where they get to pick their side. towards a congressional debate, which is, it’s called a debate, but they get to do a lot of preparation on the stuff that they actually care about in that round.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But in general, having opinions about a topic is a strength that coaches help students use to their advantage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> They’re also able to use those opinions to fuel their research. They’re able to take and think about like, wait, why do I feel like that? What are some of the sub arguments within this side of the resolution that make me feel like a little weird maybe, or maybe make me feel a little bit bad about the side that I’m advocating for? And why do I feel that way? And how can I channel that into picking? Evidence and sources that don’t make me feel that way and yet are trying to prove a similar point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> You learn how to think fast on your feet\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Tessa. She’s a sophomore from Palo Alto High School, who does an event called extemporaneous speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> you also have to learn how to be fluent and not stumble over yourself. And if you do make a mistake, then you got to recover really fast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Fear of public speaking is common. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students who participate in debate club may still get nervous when they are speaking, but they know it’s only temporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I think this translates very well into your classes and giving presentations. Also, my coach jokes around that like if you forget to do your slideshow, just like pull up an image and then you can give that speech and then just like make the whole thing up on the spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Another major benefit? Debate keeps students engaged with current events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I did not keep up with the news when I was going into high school and I feel like now I’m so much more educated in what’s going on around me and even like with the elections, I’d say this was the first election that I actually cared about because I was reading the news over and over again and looking at polls and like, oh my God, Trump, Kamala, Trump, Kamala, like what’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The number of young people who read or watch traditional news has been declining. But citing TikTok in a debate round? That won’t fly. Here’s Priya again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to tell them that social media is a tool, much like a pen. I can use it to write a nice poem or I can use it to poke someone’s eye out. So with that same vein, any of their interest in social media has actually led them to a variety of new pieces of evidence and new sources. but then at the same time, me being like, oh, make sure that that thing that you saw on TikTok actually has a citation in the description, and then go to the citation in the description instead of just citing the TikTok as is. Making sure that they’re kind of doing all of that backtracking, finding out what the original source was, because rest assured, their opponents are gonna tell them in round, wait a second, you just got this from TikTok? That’s not verifiable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the most critical skills that speech and debate teaches students is how to regulate their emotions in high-stress situations. Kyle, a freshman at Palo Alto High School, told me about a time he had to learn this firsthand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> I walked into my last round of the day and i thought i could finally breathe a sigh of relief but what ended up happening was my opponent was very good and she actually is quite well renowned for being a bit mean to her opponents and so the entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> It was really kind of a trial of my ability to stay calm because there were countless times where I wanted to like stand up and scream at her too but I didn’t end up doing that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I just want to emphasize Kyle is 14 years old, and he’s already mastered something that many adults struggle with: how to stay engaged in tough conversations without making them personal. He understands that debating an issue passionately doesn’t mean attacking the person on the other side. Last year’s presidential debates show how badly this lesson is needed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Snipes from presidential debates]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they do not follow the rules of debate in the presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our politicians aren’t exactly setting the best example for constructive discussion. But students? They’re leading the way—debate by debate, tournament by tournament. Speech and Debate is giving them the space to practice not just the fundamentals of argumentation, but the fundamentals of democracy and strong relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There are so many benefits to your students in starting this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Byron R. Arthur. He’s Board President of the National Speech and Debate Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There’s some studies that have been done, particularly around young people of color or young people that are called, quote, unquote, at risk, where those students who’ve been involved in debate have significantly better academic and social behavioral outcomes than their similarly situated peers who do not. You’re going to see it in your test scores. You will see it in your attendance at school.You will see it in a decrease in suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I wish I had done debate in high school” or maybe “I wish my school had a debate program,” there’s good news. You don’t need to wait for an official team to get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> if the question is, should we start one? My answer would be, oh, hell, yes! Reach out to the National Speech and Debate Association. Our goal is that every school in this country will one day have a speech and debate program. Every one of them. That’s what we’re aiming for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> And so if a school wants to start it, there’s no excuse. There’s absolutely no excuse. Reach out to the office, reach out to the organization. And we’ve got people there who help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before I went to this tournament, I thought debate was all about being the loudest, the most confident, the quickest on your feet. But after watching these students, I realized it’s actually about curiosity, the ability to hold two ideas in your head at once. The skill of truly listening. That’s something we could all use a little more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This episode would not have been possible without Palo Alto High School: Kyle Hietala, Tessa, Motoko, Kyle the student and Holden. Thank you to Priya Garcia and Students at Leeland. Thank you to student at Archbishop Midi and Nueva, including Hannah. Thank you Byron R. Arthur\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Marnette Federis and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Seth Samuel is our sound designer, Jen Chien is our head of podcasts, Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is KQED’s chief content officer. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thanks for listening to MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Kyle, a 10th grader at Palo Alto High School, walked into his final debate of the day, he was hoping for an easy finish to a long tournament. Instead, he found himself face-to-face with an opponent known for being challenging and loud. “The entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs,” Kyle recalled. “It really tested my ability to stay calm. There were so many times I wanted to scream back, but I didn’t.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kyle’s experience isn’t unique. From school board meetings to online comment sections, many people have been in situations where emotions take over and voices rise. At a time when \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/58660/teaching-civics-soft-skills-how-do-civics-education-and-social-emotional-learning-overlap\">public discourse often feels combative and chaotic\u003c/a>, high school speech and debate helps students learn how to stay composed in these moments, to speak with intention, and to listen when tensions run high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Speech and debate offers this amazing gift,” said Kyle Hietala, a speech and debate coach at Palo Alto High School. “No matter what event you’re in, you’re guaranteed a set amount of time to speak. No interruptions. No shouting over you. Your voice will be heard.” Additionally, speech and debate allows students to experiment with different communication styles, source reliable information and practice public speaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Kyle, the student, the experience has been transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My grandfather once called me wishy-washy, which I interpret as him saying I didn’t really mean it when I said something,” he said. But after joining speech and debate, he improved his communication skills in several ways. “I became more confident, less shy; it got easier to get my point across.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Learning to Think Critically About Information\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Speech and debate can teach students how to think critically about the information they use to build an argument, which. includes learning how to evaluate sources. Fewer young people rely on traditional news, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/fact-sheet/social-media-and-news-fact-sheet/\">many Gen Z students get information from social media platforms\u003c/a> where algorithms can reinforce existing beliefs. But that approach won’t work in a debate round. Since students are expected to back up their claims with credible sources, they quickly learn the difference between reliable information and content that won’t hold up under scrutiny. If a student cites a TikTok in a debate, their opponent will be quick to call it “not verifiable,” said Priya Garcia, a speech and debate coach at Leland High School\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Removing social media as a primary source is one of several ways speech and debate can expand students’ information diets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re forced to passionately engage in a bunch of research and learn more about the world overall,” said Samit, a twelfth grader from Nueva School. “You aren’t biased by social media because you’ve done the research and advocated for the perspectives that go both for and against that media.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Students may not always change their minds, but they become more aware of what shapes their thinking as they question their assumptions, consider multiple viewpoints, and build arguments rooted in evidence. “I didn’t keep up with the news when I started high school,” said Tessa, a student at Palo Alto High School who reads the news daily. “Now I feel so much more educated about what’s going on around me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Finding the Right Format for Every Student\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The range of events available in high school speech and debate clubs allows students to find formats that suit their unique personalities, research styles, and interests. Coach Garcia compares it to track and field. Students can pick and choose the events that fit them best and they can do more than one, she said. For example, a student who enjoys philosophical questions might gravitate toward Lincoln-Douglas debate, which focuses on moral and ethical dilemmas. Someone more interested in current events might choose policy debate, which centers on government action and real-world proposals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although students are often assigned a side in debate events, they usually study both sides of the issue to prepare counterarguments and strengthen their position. “You’re open to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/50983/how-debate-structures-allow-english-learners-brilliance-to-shine\">more arguments and more sources\u003c/a>. It kind of opens you up to a lot more ideas,” said Narendra, a twelfth grader from Archbishop Mitty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While many students \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/52590/why-debate-may-be-the-best-way-to-save-constructive-disagreement\">grow by exploring different sides of an argument\u003c/a>, coaches understand that not everyone is comfortable defending an argument they do not agree with. “If a student is hesitant to defend a position they don’t agree with,” said Garcia, “We’ll often guide them toward a speech event, or something like Congressional Debate. It’s called a debate, but it allows for a lot more personal choice in what topics students prepare and argue.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Garcia said usually students’ beliefs do not hamper their ability to debate. “Having opinions isn’t a bad thing. It can actually fuel their research.” She encourages students to use their discomfort as a tool for deeper inquiry and ask themselves questions like, “What are the sub-arguments on this side of the resolution that make me feel weird or uneasy? Why do I feel that way? And how can I find sources that still support my side, but in a way that aligns with my values?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Facing the Fear and Finding Your Voice\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Debate isn’t just for extroverts. In fact, many quieter or more \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62119/how-extroverted-teachers-can-engage-introverted-students\">introverted students thrive\u003c/a> in debate. Their thoughtfulness often becomes an asset in constructing well-reasoned, creative arguments, said coach Hietala.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6447508/#:~:text=Age%2Dof%2Donset%20data%20point,lead%20to%20better%20treatment%20outcomes.\">Fear of public speaking is common, especially for teenagers\u003c/a>. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students noted that speech and debate gave them the tools to work through that fear, even in interpersonal relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alejandro, a ninth grade student from Palo Alto High School, said that he’s always liked to talk, but since starting speech and debate his confidence has expanded. “I’m confident about talking not just about jokes and funny things, but actually about complicated topics and sad topics,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those who participate in debate may still get nervous when they speak. However, they learn that nervousness is something they can work through. “Speech and debate has definitely helped me control my own emotions around that,” said Motoko, a student at Palo Alto High School. “I’m more comfortable talking in front of people and sharing my own ideas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5130606911\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Welcome to MindShift where we explore the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When I walk into Palo Alto High School, the energy is electric. I’ve been to basketball games, school plays, even science fairs, but I’ve never seen anything quite like this. This is a high school debate tournament. Students in suits pace the hallways, whispering arguments under their breath. Some are huddled over laptops, scrolling through pages of notes. Others repeatedly refresh a website, waiting to see their next opponent. And in a few minutes, I’m about to step into my first round as a spectator.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I’ll be watching Holden, a senior at Palo Alto High School, debate a student from another school. When I talked to Holden a few weeks before, it was over Zoom. He was casual, funny, and relaxed. But today, as I spot him across the crowded school hallway, he’s buttoned-up in a suit, laptop in hand. He looks focused\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> It can be kind of stressful when you’re waiting for results to come out or you’re just waiting for the next round to drop, which I’m waiting for right now. But kind of distracting yourself with other things and not focusing on debate all the time is very, very helpful, especially since you’re at these tournaments for so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> In speech and debate clubs across the country, students like Holden are learning to craft strong, structured arguments—they’re developing skills that will serve them well in school, careers, and life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The program everyone in the hallway is refreshing tells students where to go, who they’ll be debating, and which side of the argument they’ll take. Holden sees his opponent’s name pop up—Hannah. He’s met her in other tournaments before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Hannah’s a really great debater and so I think overall, yeah she, I mean very persuasive, very articulate, so we’ll see, I have no clue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He shuts his laptop and motions for me to follow him. We weave through the crowd to a classroom where two judges sit at student desks. Hannah, also in a suit, is poised with her laptop open. The room is expectant, a little tense. Then, the round begins with Hannah\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> This will be a six minute affirmative speech. I’ll just be going over my contentions. And time starts now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Lincoln-Douglas style debate. One person argues for a resolution—a big, philosophical statement—while the other argues against it. Today’s resolution? Well… I’ll let Hannah tell you\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The development of artificial general intelligence is immoral. Hannah is arguing for the affirmative. She lays out her case: Artificial General Intelligence – also called AGI- threatens jobs, accelerates inequality, and consumes massive amounts of energy. She cites sources, scanning her laptop while keeping her focus on the judges. Holden listens carefully, scribbling down notes and then stands up for cross-examination, which means he’ll ask Hannah some clarifying questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> Let’s first talk about your first contention about economics.You talk about how AGI will replace workers. Could you read me a specific piece of evidence from your case that says that AGI will displace many workers and not just AI?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> Yes, That’s specifically the first part in the affirmative contention…..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then it’s his turn to argue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden Lee:\u003c/strong> the affirmative must prove that AGI development is inherently that…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> He counters that AGI can enhance human well-being, improve healthcare, and make agriculture more sustainable. He questions whether AGI development is inherently immoral, pointing out that misuse doesn’t mean the technology itself is bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> There are three main areas AGI would benefit human health: Disease diagnosis, cancer treatment, and drug innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> For 40 minutes, they go back and forth, quickly challenging each other’s claims, quoting studies, asking sharp questions. And here’s what surprises me: They’re arguing hard, but they’re listening, too. They don’t interrupt. They engage with each other’s ideas. It’s not the shouting match I’ve come to expect from political debates on TV or the kind of back-and-forth you see online, where people talk past each other instead of truly listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah:\u003c/strong> AGI poses an unprecedented threat to workers and the economy at large. Siphonover25 explains that AGI possesses the capability to fully replace cognitive and physical labor, rendering human employment obsolete across numerous industries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I find it very hard to believe that everyone is just going to lose their job with AGI. That’s exactly what people said when tractors and other forms of agriculture, agricultural innovations displaced millions of Americans from the agricultural sector. But Americans aren’t all unemployed today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Then, just like that, it’s over. They shake hands, gather their papers, and walk out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hannah and Holden:\u003c/strong> thanks, good debate\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I find Holden in the hallway after. He looks calm and collected. Meanwhile, as a person who does not like confrontation, I’ve been sweating from just watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> I think overall the debate was very high quality, lots of substance, lot of new points that I didn’t prep for and so I had to kind of think on my feet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln Douglass debaters know the topic beforehand and they have a few weeks to research it, but they don’t know if they will be asked to argue the affirmative or the negative. Holden could just as easily have been asked to argue the other side. Lincoln-Douglas debaters have to prepare for both positions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Holden:\u003c/strong> The flip -flopping’s kind of hard. You have to get adjusted to it. You have to go from being fervently, you know, denying it, you know, an argument into the affirmative affirmation of it. And so it’s a really good skill to develop, though, to be able to flip -flop and kind of see. just kind of a broader perspective of how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate clubs give students the chance to communicate ideas that might be different from their actual opinions and there’s room for everyone to practice that skill in a way that fits their style.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We’ll hear from students who specialize in different speech and debate events, explore what keeps them motivated, and ask a bigger question: Could learning to debate make all of us better at having tough conversations? That’s coming up next on MindShift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of us avoid tough conversations. Not because we don’t care, but because we’re afraid. Afraid of being judged, of saying the wrong thing, of facing backlash. But avoiding these conversations doesn’t keep us safe. In fact, it keeps us disconnected. Knowing how to express your views and truly engage with others is a skill that helps students build deeper relationships, shape their thinking, and even change the way they see the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Kyle Hietala, one of the debate coaches at Palo Alto High School told me that the structure students have to follow is helpful for making sure everyone can say their piece\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> Speech and debate offers this amazing gift where you are guaranteed an exact number of minutes to speak regardless of the type of speech and debate event that you’re in. You’re guaranteed to not be interrupted or shouted over or shouted down in your speaking time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It’s uncommon for a debate to go off the rails the way conversations might at a tense Thanksgiving dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle Hietala:\u003c/strong> The students generally check each other on it. It’s really rare that I have to step in and kind of say like, Whoa, chill or like let’s step back for a second\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> It also helps that there are a variety of speech and debate events, so students can explore what feels best for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to use the comparison of like track and field.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Priya Garcia, one of the speech and debate coaches at Leland High School,which is a school that participated in the tournament.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Not every student does shot put, not every student does javelin, not every student does the hurdles like Students get to pick and choose which events are best suited for them. They’re testing out different styles of athleticism and different skills. There’s different preparation involved for each of those track and field events. Speech and debate is similar in that there are, at least on the California level, 17 different events that are available… national level is a little bit different. And I do have students who do a speech event and a debate event\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Lincoln-Douglas is about philosophy and big-picture thinking, whereas Policy Debate is a two-on-two debate where teams research and argue for or against a specific policy. Like in this round on the language used when describing abuse in schools.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And then there’s Public Forum Debate, which is more like what you might expect from a political debate—teams of two arguing over real-world policy issues. LIke here where students are arguing over us trade agreements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a Public Forum debate]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Everyone has their own style. Some people love the technical aspects of Policy, others like the philosophy of Lincoln-Douglas. And then there are speech events—where you perform, almost like theater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Soundbite from a speech event]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Interestingly enough, when I talked to students who participate in speech and debate about whether they have changed their mind about something, they said no, not really. They described it as more of an expansion of their knowledge about certain topics and ability to think about things in new ways. Here’s Priya\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> Most of the time we have students who are able to set aside their personal opinions for the sake of the debate. And for them, for the sake of winning, because that’s what they care about at their age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Occasionally, students don’t want to argue for beliefs they disagree with. In that case, a coach might steer them toward a different style of speech or debate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> We’ll lean them more towards a speech event where they get to pick their side. towards a congressional debate, which is, it’s called a debate, but they get to do a lot of preparation on the stuff that they actually care about in that round.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> But in general, having opinions about a topic is a strength that coaches help students use to their advantage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> They’re also able to use those opinions to fuel their research. They’re able to take and think about like, wait, why do I feel like that? What are some of the sub arguments within this side of the resolution that make me feel like a little weird maybe, or maybe make me feel a little bit bad about the side that I’m advocating for? And why do I feel that way? And how can I channel that into picking? Evidence and sources that don’t make me feel that way and yet are trying to prove a similar point.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> You learn how to think fast on your feet\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Tessa. She’s a sophomore from Palo Alto High School, who does an event called extemporaneous speech.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> you also have to learn how to be fluent and not stumble over yourself. And if you do make a mistake, then you got to recover really fast\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Fear of public speaking is common. Many students develop this fear in adolescence, and it can persist into adulthood, limiting career and leadership opportunities. Students who participate in debate club may still get nervous when they are speaking, but they know it’s only temporary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I think this translates very well into your classes and giving presentations. Also, my coach jokes around that like if you forget to do your slideshow, just like pull up an image and then you can give that speech and then just like make the whole thing up on the spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Another major benefit? Debate keeps students engaged with current events.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tessa:\u003c/strong> I did not keep up with the news when I was going into high school and I feel like now I’m so much more educated in what’s going on around me and even like with the elections, I’d say this was the first election that I actually cared about because I was reading the news over and over again and looking at polls and like, oh my God, Trump, Kamala, Trump, Kamala, like what’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The number of young people who read or watch traditional news has been declining. But citing TikTok in a debate round? That won’t fly. Here’s Priya again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Priya Garcia:\u003c/strong> I like to tell them that social media is a tool, much like a pen. I can use it to write a nice poem or I can use it to poke someone’s eye out. So with that same vein, any of their interest in social media has actually led them to a variety of new pieces of evidence and new sources. but then at the same time, me being like, oh, make sure that that thing that you saw on TikTok actually has a citation in the description, and then go to the citation in the description instead of just citing the TikTok as is. Making sure that they’re kind of doing all of that backtracking, finding out what the original source was, because rest assured, their opponents are gonna tell them in round, wait a second, you just got this from TikTok? That’s not verifiable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> One of the most critical skills that speech and debate teaches students is how to regulate their emotions in high-stress situations. Kyle, a freshman at Palo Alto High School, told me about a time he had to learn this firsthand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> I walked into my last round of the day and i thought i could finally breathe a sigh of relief but what ended up happening was my opponent was very good and she actually is quite well renowned for being a bit mean to her opponents and so the entire round she was screaming at the top of her lungs\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> It was really kind of a trial of my ability to stay calm because there were countless times where I wanted to like stand up and scream at her too but I didn’t end up doing that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I just want to emphasize Kyle is 14 years old, and he’s already mastered something that many adults struggle with: how to stay engaged in tough conversations without making them personal. He understands that debating an issue passionately doesn’t mean attacking the person on the other side. Last year’s presidential debates show how badly this lesson is needed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Snipes from presidential debates]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kyle:\u003c/strong> Yeah, they do not follow the rules of debate in the presidential election.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Our politicians aren’t exactly setting the best example for constructive discussion. But students? They’re leading the way—debate by debate, tournament by tournament. Speech and Debate is giving them the space to practice not just the fundamentals of argumentation, but the fundamentals of democracy and strong relationships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There are so many benefits to your students in starting this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This is Byron R. Arthur. He’s Board President of the National Speech and Debate Association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> There’s some studies that have been done, particularly around young people of color or young people that are called, quote, unquote, at risk, where those students who’ve been involved in debate have significantly better academic and social behavioral outcomes than their similarly situated peers who do not. You’re going to see it in your test scores. You will see it in your attendance at school.You will see it in a decrease in suspensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you’re listening to this and thinking, “I wish I had done debate in high school” or maybe “I wish my school had a debate program,” there’s good news. You don’t need to wait for an official team to get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> if the question is, should we start one? My answer would be, oh, hell, yes! Reach out to the National Speech and Debate Association. Our goal is that every school in this country will one day have a speech and debate program. Every one of them. That’s what we’re aiming for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Byron R. Arthur:\u003c/strong> And so if a school wants to start it, there’s no excuse. There’s absolutely no excuse. Reach out to the office, reach out to the organization. And we’ve got people there who help.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Before I went to this tournament, I thought debate was all about being the loudest, the most confident, the quickest on your feet. But after watching these students, I realized it’s actually about curiosity, the ability to hold two ideas in your head at once. The skill of truly listening. That’s something we could all use a little more of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This episode would not have been possible without Palo Alto High School: Kyle Hietala, Tessa, Motoko, Kyle the student and Holden. Thank you to Priya Garcia and Students at Leeland. Thank you to student at Archbishop Midi and Nueva, including Hannah. Thank you Byron R. Arthur\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The MindShift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Marnette Federis and Ki Sung. Our editor is Chris Hambrick, Seth Samuel is our sound designer, Jen Chien is our head of podcasts, Katie Sprenger is podcast operations manager and Holly Kernan is KQED’s chief content officer. We receive additional support from Maha Sanad and Alana Walker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is supported in part by the generosity of the William & Flora Hewlett Foundation and members of KQED. This episode was made possible by the Stuart Foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he was scrolling through social media, Steve Saltwick came across a video of protesting students ripping up the Constitution. “I’m a conservative,” said Saltwick, who works at \u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/\">Braver Angels\u003c/a>, a national nonprofit focused on bridging political divides. “The Constitution is a pretty serious document for me. So with righteous indignation, I [reposted] it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the video was fake. “I fell for it immediately,” he admitted. The experience drove home just how easy it is to be misled and how crucial it is to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63681/how-do-you-counter-misinformation-critical-thinking-is-step-one\">think critically about the media we consume\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sxswedu.com/\">2025 SXSW EDU conference\u003c/a>, a panel moderated by MindShift brought together experts on media literacy to discuss what young people and the adults who teach them need now. Panelists included Saltwick, a senior fellow of Braver Angels; \u003ca href=\"https://www.tannerhiggin.com/\">Tanner Higgin\u003c/a>, a senior educational technology researcher at WestEd; and Kiera Beddes, a Utah-based digital teaching and learning specialist. Together, they painted a picture of how media literacy has evolved and how educators can make it a meaningful, integrated part of their teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Media literacy is for everyone\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Media literacy has traditionally been associated with fact-checking and spotting misinformation. But as Higgin pointed out, it has often been framed around fear, particularly in response to the spread of new technology. Sometimes it can seem like setting up fences, he said, about how there is often an emphasis on making sure students can filter information. “We can be less reactive and more proactive in media literacy education,” added Higgin. Today media literacy also includes understanding how identity, community and algorithms shape our experience of information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While media literacy can seem politically charged, its core goals are widely shared. Words like “fake news” or “misinformation” may raise alarms, but “everyone wants kids to be knowledgeable, thoughtful, critical thinkers,” said Higgin. He cited data from \u003ca href=\"https://medialiteracynow.org/nationalsurvey2022/\">Media Literacy Now that said 84%\u003c/a> of surveyed adults believe media literacy should be a required part of school, while a study from the \u003ca href=\"https://newslit.org/news-literacy-in-america/\">News Literacy Project found that 94%\u003c/a> of teens agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite widespread support, many educators feel unsure how to approach the topic, especially in polarized environments. Beddes noted that most teachers don’t have a background in media studies, and discomfort around addressing controversial topics can lead to media literacy being sidelined. \u003ca href=\"https://digitalthriving.gse.harvard.edu/\">The Center for Digital Thriving\u003c/a> offers a possible solution with resources that help educators take a nonpartisan, student-led approach, including classroom-ready lesson plans and teacher training.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Build a Culture of Respectful Conversation\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Media literacy isn’t just about analyzing content; it also requires students to discuss what they’re seeing and feeling, especially when they disagree. “What we find is many people are hesitant to share a view, especially a view that might be in the minority in a given group,” said Saltwick. “But with a few simple techniques, you can really get a good dialogue going to make sure all these perspectives are heard.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saltwick recommended using a clear structure for these conversations. He teaches the LAPP technique — Listen, Acknowledge, Pivot, Perspective — as a way to model respectful disagreement and build trust. “The tenor of the conversation changes dramatically,” he said. “So it’s not a battle of wills: ‘I’m right, you’re wrong.’ It’s ‘let’s understand.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beddes agreed that structure can help students navigate difficult discussions. She provides sentence stems to help them express curiosity and respond without escalating conflict. In her classroom, she also uses the \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/63335c5039fd1568331b8332/t/67b758dd1695b75d62b81307/1740069086806/DI+Card+v2.2.pdf\">Dignity Index\u003c/a>, a tool that evaluates the tone of speech, to help students ground their arguments in mutual respect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When media literacy conversations touch on identity, they can be particularly challenging. “False belief systems, conspiracy theories, can fuse to people’s identities now. And that is something that any number of skills can’t unwind,” said Higgin. “That’s why I think media literacy needs to not just be about skills—it needs to be about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54286/how-a-school-prioritizes-character-as-much-as-academics\">character\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62501/want-your-kids-to-be-happier-and-healthier-start-talking-with-them-about-uncomfortable-emotions\">social-emotional learning\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Use Real Media, Not Hypotheticals\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To be effective, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63390/ai-images-and-conspiracy-theories-are-driving-a-push-for-media-literacy-education\">media literacy education must engage with the actual media\u003c/a> students encounter in their daily lives. While there are tools that recreate media and try to approximate what a newsfeed would look like, “it can be very challenging to get something that feels authentic,” said Higgin. “We need to increasingly figure out how to manage the privacy and safety and maturity level of kids, but get them as much exposure to the actual media and thinking through the media in authentic environments as possible.” That includes analyzing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62233/how-to-help-your-kids-navigate-social-media-without-getting-lost\">social media platforms\u003c/a> students already use since algorithms often present a partial view of a topic as if it’s the whole truth and may reinforce students’ existing beliefs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To push back against those filters, Saltwick leads an activity called \u003cem>Walk a Mile in My News,\u003c/em> in which students exchange the media they consume, such as a favorite news outlet or influencer, and reflect on the differences in perspective. Exploring news sources outside of their usual echo chambers helps students realize what perspectives might be missing from their own sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beddes offered a similar activity to encourage critical thinking and highlight bias. She shares \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62710/like-it-or-not-kids-hear-the-news-heres-how-teachers-help-them-understand-it\">news articles\u003c/a> from outlets with different political leanings, removes the names of the publications and authors and asks students to guess the source. “It’s helping the students recognize who’s not part of this conversation,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, starting small can make the work more sustainable and more impactful. That could mean doing a short “media moment” where students reflect on how a recent viral post relates to what they’re learning in history or science. According to Beddes, resources like The \u003ca href=\"https://newslit.org/educators/sift/\">SIFT newsletter from the News Literacy Project\u003c/a> can support this kind of integration by providing timely examples and analysis of real media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers are often hesitant to take on media literacy because it can feel like another box to check, but Beddes says it doesn’t have to be that way. “Make media the lens through which you teach your subject matter so that it is not just another thing,” she advised.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5161212251\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. This year, I went to the South by Southwest EDU conference in Austin, Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I moderated a panel all about media literacy and I got to talk to three amazing people who are really thinking about this work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Hey everybody, I’m Tanner Higgin. I’m a senior educational technology researcher at WestEd which is a large and old education research organization focused on all ages and stages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>Hi everyone, my name is Kiera Beddes. I’m a digital teaching and learning specialist in Utah. Been in education for about 15 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> And my name is Steve Saltwick and I volunteer pretty much full time for an organization called Braver Angels, which is a national nonprofit totally focused on bridging the political divide in all demographic areas because we feel that is essential in strengthening our democratic republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Together, they brought a lot of insight and heart to that conversation. And today we’re sharing an excerpt of that panel. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I wanted to start with a question that you all could answer about a moment that made you realize how important media literacy is today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> Right after the mass shooting at the Marjory Stoner Douglas, where several of the students became quite active and well-known on social media. I remember seeing a post on my social feeds of those students ripping up a copy of the Constitution. And I’m a conservative. I mean, the Constitution’s a pretty serious document for me. So with righteous indignation, I posted this thing. And then came to find out from several of my friends who posted saying that’s a fake video and it just absolutely stunned me. So I withdrew, you know, I apologized it withdrew the post You know, and it made me really think my goodness How powerful a video image was of something like that and I fell for it immediately. I realized I needed to be a lot more mature, if you will, I guess in the way I consumed media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I have kind of a similar experience. I was at my nail tech and I was a captive audience because, you know, when you’re there for a couple of hours getting your nails done. And she’d be telling me, “Oh, I saw this thing on TikTok and isn’t that the craziest thing you’ve ever heard?” And I’d be like, “I don’t think that’s real.” And so one-handedly I’d be like hurriedly like googling something on my phone So I could be like this article says that’s not true or or these things also say kind of the opposite and so it was this really kind of aha moment that I had where She was seeing things and her algorithm was telling her things that were not crossing my dashboard And I just realized that like oh if she is is thinking these things and having these conversations in her home, what does that look like in my classroom? What are my kids seeing and what’s impacting them? And I realized the skills of lateral reading, of fact checking, but even going beyond that to say why is it so easy to kind of fall for these things? And so that was my aha moment. I was like, this is important and we need to do more about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it may come at this from a different angle, which is, my academic background is more in the media studies world. And one thing I love about media literacy is that when done well, it sort of unlocks a whole new layer of meaning in the world. The world comes alive once you start to understand audiovisual media and how to interpret it and unpack it. And the different systems for understanding that by looking at the medium itself, right, as part of the architecture of the meaning of something. I had some great intro to film professors who sort of gave me this new media studies and media literacy lens, tapped into the, you know, the whole notion of film language, and it felt like I’d been let into this sort of secret knowledge that exists and can really make meaning everywhere you look once you tap into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thank you. And I do want to start with asking you a question, Tanner, because you actually brought to my attention when we were first discussing this session that media literacy has transformed throughout time because our world is also changing. Like the technology that we have, even in the past like two years, has grown by leaps and bounds. So can you kind of frame for us the way that media literacy has evolved over time? Maybe even what historical trends have shaped the way that we teach it today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> What I love about media literacy is that it kind of reflects culture at that time, but then shapes it as well. Media literacy education, interestingly, is a whole other thing. And it really grows out of policy. And policy, as I think everyone knows, especially in education, often, needs to get pushed. And it often gets pushed from a standpoint of fear, I would argue, especially media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> You know, these new technologies pop up and with it you see a new spark and interest in media literacy but it’s often from a feeling of “We need to do something for the children because this new technology is scary and is transforming everything we see.” You know, television to internet, web publishing, eroding the whole idea of authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Whereas traditional literacy, ELA kind of instruction is all about like building bridges, opening up worlds for kids to like see and read the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Media literacy education when it gets operationalized through policy is like setting up fences. Like let’s protect and filter information and let’s make sure kids have that capability—Very, very important, but it cuts off all of the amazing extraordinary aspects of media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> So that’s kinda been my passion. And the way I sort of think through media history, media literacy history is this battle between what happens in the media studies world and what happens in the Media Literacy Education world. And how maybe we can be less reactive and more proactive in media literacy education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I want to bring it to Kiera, who I’m so happy to have on this panel, because I feel like when we get up in theories and ideas, you being at school really brings us back down to the rubber meets the road, ‘what does this look like in classrooms?’ So can you maybe talk about some of the challenges that you’re seeing with media literacy in your position in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> The biggest thing that teachers are always gonna say is that they need time. And then also, they say I can’t add one more thing onto my plate. And so the problem with that though is that when we see media literacy as some sort of other, then it gets left by the wayside because they’re gonna focus on their content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>Whereas like I try to emphasize with my teachers, media literacy isn’t another thing, it becomes the lens through which you can teach your content. Media literacy, when it’s done well, you’re not just looking at the film or the message or the content of whatever you’re looking at, whatever media that you’re interacting with, but you’re also looking at the form and the choices that were made in production that impact how you, the viewer, you, the consumer, interacts with that media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thank you, and I’m curious, Steve, if you have anything to add to that, because I know that Braver Angels is in the business of creating containers for better conversations, which I think is a big part of media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>What we’re focused on is the idea that everyone has a perspective and a point of view, including the media you consume. We have one program called Walk a Mile in My News. So you take two people who have very different viewpoints, and they actually switch the kinds of media they consume. And then they talk about that. And they realize, well, wait a minute, I’m missing things, because I’m not reading what the other person is reading, and much of this is not that one is right or one is wrong, it’s just to appreciate the fact that others have perspectives that are quite different from you, and if you have ground rules that set the stage for a respectful dialog about that, you can really get to a further appreciation of what the topic is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard of other teachers doing activities where they have their students swap phones and go through each other’s feeds to see what are you seeing? How is it different from what I’m seeing? Kiera, have you seen any activities that have actually been successful in having students realize that what I see is not what everybody sees?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard teachers where they will print out articles and they remove all identifying features of the article so that they’re just looking at the language that is used in the article. And based on the word choice, you can kind of see, oh, based on how they’re talking about this topic, you can guess, is it left leaning, is right leaning? And it kind of calls to mind the ultimate promise of media literacy, which is like looking at the form, right? What is the structure and how is it used and what choices are being used. But there’s also perspectives that are noticeably absent and it’s helping the students recognize who’s not part of this conversation. Just being aware of like, oh, there is more to this and how can I go out and find that missing perspective and bring it in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And I want to bring you into this too, Tanner. Are there tech tools or ed tech tools that can kind of foster this idea that, like I might be seeing like a certain thing, but I am aware that there is a bigger story or a bigger narrative out there beyond what I see on my own feeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Since I would say 2016, there’s been a growing sector within ed tech specifically focused on various approaches to what one might call fake news. I’m of two minds about these tools because I think one of the tricky things with media literacy in particular is if the medium is the message. Then you need to engage with the medium to understand it. Tools that recreate media and try and like, especially for younger kids, approximate what a newsfeed would look like. I think it can be very challenging to get something that feels authentic to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>My recommendation is when possible to get kids engaging with the actual media itself. Otherwise, it’s like you’re teaching film studies by having students reading film synopses or something instead of looking at the actual film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>I think we need to increasingly figure out how to manage privacy and safety and maturity level of kids, but get them as much exposure to the actual media and thinking through the media in authentic environments as possible, because that’s what’s actually gonna serve them well when they are. You know, maybe sneaking some usage of things that we otherwise might not approve of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When you were speaking, my brain snagged on, you mentioned fake news and I think even the words misinformation and disinformation can be kind of like politically coded and can feel a little bit divisive. Media literacy, I think we talked about this too, can be a non-partisan issue. What are some shared concerns that parents and educators across ideological lines can actually come together on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think particularly at this moment in time, it can feel like in education, there’s no common ground. But media literacy is one of, it has universal support. I think it’s somewhere around, media literacy now did a survey, like 84% of adults think it should be required in classrooms. And when you ask teens, 94% think it should be require in classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Everyone wants kids to be knowledgeable, thoughtful, critical thinkers. I mean, everyone wants that. It’s at the heart of education, right? Media literacy is at the core of what we want education to do, which is to empower people to be self-determined, to think for themselves, and to explore and engage with the world thoughtfully. There is no debate around whether that’s important or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I would add to that, for the average teacher, they don’t have the background of media studies to then feel comfortable talking about it in their classes. And so it gets put onto the wayside. And so I think it’s interesting that we see this universal need for it. But then the question is, how do we empower teachers to do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> What we find in the classroom, both in secondary schools and university, and really adults as well, is that with a few simple techniques, you can really get a good dialog going to make sure all these perspectives are heard and things like that. I mean, so a couple of just simple ground rules, right, of respectful conversation, especially body language, so no rolling of your eyes, sighing and things that, and just state them is a big deal. And then what we use is a very simple technique called LAPP for listen, acknowledge, pivot and perspective. And really the main thing about all of that is that the speaker needs to feel that they are understood. So when you listen, you’re not listening to frame a reply, you’re listening to understand. In Texas we call it, you listen to understand not reload. You know, and so, and that’s hard work. That’s hard, right? And then the pivot is to actually ask permission before you share your perspective. So someone would say, I hear you. This is what, you know, there’s an element I agree with. At the very least, you can say, it’s clearly an emotional topic for you. And then along, something along the lines of, you know I’ve been doing some reading on this, or I’ve seen some things on this. Would you mind if I share my perspective? And then if the other person says, sure, well then you now have permission to share a differing perspective. And that is handled differently than if the first reply you have is let me tell you my perspective, let me you what the truth is, right? That’s gonna be resisted. We find that as an amazingly powerful technique to use in these discussions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It sounds like that process slows down the conversation in a way where it’s not as reactive. And that seems like a really important component of a conversation not kind of devolving into, I don’t know, finger pointing or talking past each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>What we find is many people are hesitant to share a view, especially a view that might be in the minority in a given group, right? And if they feel heard, if someone says what you’re saying is blah, right, whether you agree with blah or not, right. But I now feel heard. Then there’s all sorts of trust that starts being built. There’s all sorts of personalization that starts being built. And the tenor of the conversation changes dramatically. So it’s not a battle of wills. “I’m right, you’re wrong.” It’s “Let’s understand each other” because both of us probably missed something in understanding this complicated thing, whatever it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And I wonder, this is maybe something that Steve, you, and maybe Kiera, you as well, can weigh in on. I do feel like when we get into things that are related to maybe identity, social identity, things that are seen as values or like close to personhood, those can get really, really emotional very fast and they’re kind of unwieldy. It can be hard, I would think as an educator, to facilitate those conversations, and I know it’s really hard to be in those conversations. Do you have any strategies for, it sounds like LAPP could work for something like that. Are there any other things you’ve found that work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> One of my favorites, and it sounds so simple, but having sentence stems available for students… I’ve seen elementary school teachers through middle and high school, when you’re going to have a conversation, and if it’s going to be about a heated topic, you have kind of these sentence starters of like, okay, I see where you’re coming from, or this is my perspective, or. And there’s like a whole list of them. But I think it helps give students a framework for having a conversation, right? And I loved what you said about slowing the conversation down because a lot of what we see online is people share immediately out of strong emotion, right, either anger or fear or whatever the case may be. And so slowing down the reaction and really getting at “why do I react this way? Why am I feeling this way?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> One thing we’ve found with Braver Angels is that the importance of structure, right? So we will have some simple ground rules and there’s also a clear structure to the conversation. You know, here’s what we’re doing, here is how we’re going to do it, you know, here’s some very simple ground roles but it’s not just a free for all of everybody jumping in, talking over one another, all of that. By having ground rules and a structure to the conversation, you create a much open space for people to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Tanner, was there anything you wanted to add to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> I’m really struck by this notion of identity and values and how it comes into play in the interpretation of media and how we receive it and understand it and what we cling to. And one thing I’ve really been doing a lot of thinking about is like, I picture this as a relatively modern phenomenon, I think spurred by social media and how as a medium, conditions culture in a way, where false beliefs, false belief systems, conspiracy theories, can fuse to people’s identities now. And that is something that any number of skills can’t unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>You can teach people in that position all of the media literacy skills in the world and Dana Boyd had a great talk on this, titled, “Did Media Literacy Backfire?” because she was observing how in some of these communities, critical thinking skills get applied. They just go the wrong way. But I believe, I hypothesize, that to untether false belief from identity takes humility. And that is in very short supply in the world of social media. We’re almost conditioned against it. And people with false beliefs that are tethered to their identity, it becomes like their entire world can come crumbling down if they are to take a different view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>And that’s why I think media literacy needs to not just be about skills, it needs to be about character. And social-emotional learning and that I haven’t seen many approaches that really take that seriously. I think there are some but I think a lot more work to be done and there’s a lot of research to be done in maybe proving me correct or half correct or completely false.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>That does make me think of, Kiera, you posed a question when you were answering a question earlier, which was teachers need to be kind of empowered to kind of take on media literacy. And from what Tanner said, it is kind of a tall order. What do you think teachers need to get that work started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>My answer to this is always to start small, because I don’t want to overwhelm teachers, but I do want to start, right? Find a direction and head in that direction. The resources, The SIFT from the news literacy project, so it’s a newsletter they put out each week. In it, they have rumor guard where they take a viral piece of media and they break down why it went viral and what was true and what is false and kind of helping reinforce those skills. That we want our students to gain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>And I think something as simple as a media moment, right? Where a teacher could be a classroom starter, it could be an exit ticket, it could anything that you just have two minutes, three minutes, pop up a piece of media, and this can be anything, right, because text is very broadly based. But then you have your students practice those skills, you’re reinforcing those skills. And as a teacher, you don’t have to have a degree in media analyzes, but you’re helping them break down not only what are they seeing, like what is the content, but you also ask them questions about how it was created and what is meaning behind how it is created.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is all about solutions. I think it’s easy to get kind of mired in the work that needs to be done. But I’m wondering, for all three of you, if you can share an example of someone who’s doing this work well, whether it’s an organization or an experience that you’ve had where it’s gone really positively. You got one, Steve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>Well, I would say Braver Angels, right? I mean, what a layup, okay, right, but I certainly know one thing that strikes me about Braver Angels. It started in 2016 where a group of Trump voters and a group Hillary voters got very worried about the state of the country and it was all adults, right-typically retired adults and all of that. And then subsequently has branched out to college campuses, high schools, some middle schools. And we do workshops, and I’ve moderated many of those workshops. I’ve probably seen about 100 workshops, and probably 20%, 30% of them have been in the high school and college area. What always strikes me is really unbelievable is the thirst that I see in students to have real conversations about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I have two that came to mind. One is very similar to the work that Braver Angels is doing, so the Dignity Index, they’ve developed this ranking scale of public speech and whether or not it gives dignity to the people that they’re talking about, which is a fascinating way of looking at how we talk about other people, especially people we disagree with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>You can look at articles, you can look at speech, you can also look at conversations between students, right? What kind of dignity are you offering the other person and how are you validating their perspective? So that’s one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>The second one and I’m not just saying this but I honestly believe this: KQED teach has a whole bunch of mini courses for educators about this very topic. One is how to teach students how to look at the form and how to analyze media and how did look at bias and And how to like share their perspectives, which is great. That’s kind of the back end, the theory behind media literacy. But then they also offer very practical, like, this is how to do video projects in your class. This is how do photo projects in our class. Like you learn the theory and then you apply it and I love it. So those are my two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We did not pay Kiera to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I honestly love it so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> I’ll point to the Center for Digital Thriving out of Harvard, I think, is doing some really path-breaking work around digital well-being specifically, which I think is an increasingly important part of media literacy, is getting students to reflect on the presence of smartphones in their lives and to think critically about it and decide for themselves what purpose it should serve and if it’s serving those purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>And to that end, that research group at the Center for Digital Thriving developed an activity that’s rooted in Harvard’s long-term Project Zero Thinking Routines framework, like real simple pedagogical moves anyone can apply to just about any learning scenario. And they’ve developed one of these called The Value Sort, where you get students to choose from a big board of values which ones kind of represent them, like which ones they hold really dear. And then you can use that as a sort of critical lens to apply to just about anything in the media world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>So their example is using that value sort to get students to think about their usage of smartphones, track like what they’re doing on their smartphones, and then go, hey, remember those values that you hold dear? Like how are those being represented in that activity or not, right? And I think that’s a way of. Of providing students with a really interesting lens to make sure that like what they’re consuming and doing is in standing with what they truly believe and their image of themselves. And I think that’s like, to me that’s a picture of the future of media literacy is this merging of traditional critical thinking skills with values and character-based education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Can we give a round of applause to our panelists?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That was Tanner Higgin, Kiera Bettes, and Steve Saltwick at the SXSW EDU Conference in Austin, Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As he was scrolling through social media, Steve Saltwick came across a video of protesting students ripping up the Constitution. “I’m a conservative,” said Saltwick, who works at \u003ca href=\"https://braverangels.org/\">Braver Angels\u003c/a>, a national nonprofit focused on bridging political divides. “The Constitution is a pretty serious document for me. So with righteous indignation, I [reposted] it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the video was fake. “I fell for it immediately,” he admitted. The experience drove home just how easy it is to be misled and how crucial it is to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63681/how-do-you-counter-misinformation-critical-thinking-is-step-one\">think critically about the media we consume\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sxswedu.com/\">2025 SXSW EDU conference\u003c/a>, a panel moderated by MindShift brought together experts on media literacy to discuss what young people and the adults who teach them need now. Panelists included Saltwick, a senior fellow of Braver Angels; \u003ca href=\"https://www.tannerhiggin.com/\">Tanner Higgin\u003c/a>, a senior educational technology researcher at WestEd; and Kiera Beddes, a Utah-based digital teaching and learning specialist. Together, they painted a picture of how media literacy has evolved and how educators can make it a meaningful, integrated part of their teaching.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Media literacy is for everyone\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Media literacy has traditionally been associated with fact-checking and spotting misinformation. But as Higgin pointed out, it has often been framed around fear, particularly in response to the spread of new technology. Sometimes it can seem like setting up fences, he said, about how there is often an emphasis on making sure students can filter information. “We can be less reactive and more proactive in media literacy education,” added Higgin. Today media literacy also includes understanding how identity, community and algorithms shape our experience of information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While media literacy can seem politically charged, its core goals are widely shared. Words like “fake news” or “misinformation” may raise alarms, but “everyone wants kids to be knowledgeable, thoughtful, critical thinkers,” said Higgin. He cited data from \u003ca href=\"https://medialiteracynow.org/nationalsurvey2022/\">Media Literacy Now that said 84%\u003c/a> of surveyed adults believe media literacy should be a required part of school, while a study from the \u003ca href=\"https://newslit.org/news-literacy-in-america/\">News Literacy Project found that 94%\u003c/a> of teens agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite widespread support, many educators feel unsure how to approach the topic, especially in polarized environments. Beddes noted that most teachers don’t have a background in media studies, and discomfort around addressing controversial topics can lead to media literacy being sidelined. \u003ca href=\"https://digitalthriving.gse.harvard.edu/\">The Center for Digital Thriving\u003c/a> offers a possible solution with resources that help educators take a nonpartisan, student-led approach, including classroom-ready lesson plans and teacher training.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Build a Culture of Respectful Conversation\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Media literacy isn’t just about analyzing content; it also requires students to discuss what they’re seeing and feeling, especially when they disagree. “What we find is many people are hesitant to share a view, especially a view that might be in the minority in a given group,” said Saltwick. “But with a few simple techniques, you can really get a good dialogue going to make sure all these perspectives are heard.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saltwick recommended using a clear structure for these conversations. He teaches the LAPP technique — Listen, Acknowledge, Pivot, Perspective — as a way to model respectful disagreement and build trust. “The tenor of the conversation changes dramatically,” he said. “So it’s not a battle of wills: ‘I’m right, you’re wrong.’ It’s ‘let’s understand.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beddes agreed that structure can help students navigate difficult discussions. She provides sentence stems to help them express curiosity and respond without escalating conflict. In her classroom, she also uses the \u003ca href=\"https://static1.squarespace.com/static/63335c5039fd1568331b8332/t/67b758dd1695b75d62b81307/1740069086806/DI+Card+v2.2.pdf\">Dignity Index\u003c/a>, a tool that evaluates the tone of speech, to help students ground their arguments in mutual respect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When media literacy conversations touch on identity, they can be particularly challenging. “False belief systems, conspiracy theories, can fuse to people’s identities now. And that is something that any number of skills can’t unwind,” said Higgin. “That’s why I think media literacy needs to not just be about skills—it needs to be about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54286/how-a-school-prioritizes-character-as-much-as-academics\">character\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62501/want-your-kids-to-be-happier-and-healthier-start-talking-with-them-about-uncomfortable-emotions\">social-emotional learning\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Use Real Media, Not Hypotheticals\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To be effective, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/63390/ai-images-and-conspiracy-theories-are-driving-a-push-for-media-literacy-education\">media literacy education must engage with the actual media\u003c/a> students encounter in their daily lives. While there are tools that recreate media and try to approximate what a newsfeed would look like, “it can be very challenging to get something that feels authentic,” said Higgin. “We need to increasingly figure out how to manage the privacy and safety and maturity level of kids, but get them as much exposure to the actual media and thinking through the media in authentic environments as possible.” That includes analyzing the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62233/how-to-help-your-kids-navigate-social-media-without-getting-lost\">social media platforms\u003c/a> students already use since algorithms often present a partial view of a topic as if it’s the whole truth and may reinforce students’ existing beliefs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To push back against those filters, Saltwick leads an activity called \u003cem>Walk a Mile in My News,\u003c/em> in which students exchange the media they consume, such as a favorite news outlet or influencer, and reflect on the differences in perspective. Exploring news sources outside of their usual echo chambers helps students realize what perspectives might be missing from their own sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Beddes offered a similar activity to encourage critical thinking and highlight bias. She shares \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/62710/like-it-or-not-kids-hear-the-news-heres-how-teachers-help-them-understand-it\">news articles\u003c/a> from outlets with different political leanings, removes the names of the publications and authors and asks students to guess the source. “It’s helping the students recognize who’s not part of this conversation,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, starting small can make the work more sustainable and more impactful. That could mean doing a short “media moment” where students reflect on how a recent viral post relates to what they’re learning in history or science. According to Beddes, resources like The \u003ca href=\"https://newslit.org/educators/sift/\">SIFT newsletter from the News Literacy Project\u003c/a> can support this kind of integration by providing timely examples and analysis of real media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Teachers are often hesitant to take on media literacy because it can feel like another box to check, but Beddes says it doesn’t have to be that way. “Make media the lens through which you teach your subject matter so that it is not just another thing,” she advised.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5161212251\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Welcome to Mind Shift, the podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids. I’m Nimah Gobir. This year, I went to the South by Southwest EDU conference in Austin, Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I moderated a panel all about media literacy and I got to talk to three amazing people who are really thinking about this work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Hey everybody, I’m Tanner Higgin. I’m a senior educational technology researcher at WestEd which is a large and old education research organization focused on all ages and stages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>Hi everyone, my name is Kiera Beddes. I’m a digital teaching and learning specialist in Utah. Been in education for about 15 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> And my name is Steve Saltwick and I volunteer pretty much full time for an organization called Braver Angels, which is a national nonprofit totally focused on bridging the political divide in all demographic areas because we feel that is essential in strengthening our democratic republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Together, they brought a lot of insight and heart to that conversation. And today we’re sharing an excerpt of that panel. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I wanted to start with a question that you all could answer about a moment that made you realize how important media literacy is today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> Right after the mass shooting at the Marjory Stoner Douglas, where several of the students became quite active and well-known on social media. I remember seeing a post on my social feeds of those students ripping up a copy of the Constitution. And I’m a conservative. I mean, the Constitution’s a pretty serious document for me. So with righteous indignation, I posted this thing. And then came to find out from several of my friends who posted saying that’s a fake video and it just absolutely stunned me. So I withdrew, you know, I apologized it withdrew the post You know, and it made me really think my goodness How powerful a video image was of something like that and I fell for it immediately. I realized I needed to be a lot more mature, if you will, I guess in the way I consumed media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I have kind of a similar experience. I was at my nail tech and I was a captive audience because, you know, when you’re there for a couple of hours getting your nails done. And she’d be telling me, “Oh, I saw this thing on TikTok and isn’t that the craziest thing you’ve ever heard?” And I’d be like, “I don’t think that’s real.” And so one-handedly I’d be like hurriedly like googling something on my phone So I could be like this article says that’s not true or or these things also say kind of the opposite and so it was this really kind of aha moment that I had where She was seeing things and her algorithm was telling her things that were not crossing my dashboard And I just realized that like oh if she is is thinking these things and having these conversations in her home, what does that look like in my classroom? What are my kids seeing and what’s impacting them? And I realized the skills of lateral reading, of fact checking, but even going beyond that to say why is it so easy to kind of fall for these things? And so that was my aha moment. I was like, this is important and we need to do more about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it may come at this from a different angle, which is, my academic background is more in the media studies world. And one thing I love about media literacy is that when done well, it sort of unlocks a whole new layer of meaning in the world. The world comes alive once you start to understand audiovisual media and how to interpret it and unpack it. And the different systems for understanding that by looking at the medium itself, right, as part of the architecture of the meaning of something. I had some great intro to film professors who sort of gave me this new media studies and media literacy lens, tapped into the, you know, the whole notion of film language, and it felt like I’d been let into this sort of secret knowledge that exists and can really make meaning everywhere you look once you tap into it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thank you. And I do want to start with asking you a question, Tanner, because you actually brought to my attention when we were first discussing this session that media literacy has transformed throughout time because our world is also changing. Like the technology that we have, even in the past like two years, has grown by leaps and bounds. So can you kind of frame for us the way that media literacy has evolved over time? Maybe even what historical trends have shaped the way that we teach it today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> What I love about media literacy is that it kind of reflects culture at that time, but then shapes it as well. Media literacy education, interestingly, is a whole other thing. And it really grows out of policy. And policy, as I think everyone knows, especially in education, often, needs to get pushed. And it often gets pushed from a standpoint of fear, I would argue, especially media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> You know, these new technologies pop up and with it you see a new spark and interest in media literacy but it’s often from a feeling of “We need to do something for the children because this new technology is scary and is transforming everything we see.” You know, television to internet, web publishing, eroding the whole idea of authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Whereas traditional literacy, ELA kind of instruction is all about like building bridges, opening up worlds for kids to like see and read the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Media literacy education when it gets operationalized through policy is like setting up fences. Like let’s protect and filter information and let’s make sure kids have that capability—Very, very important, but it cuts off all of the amazing extraordinary aspects of media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> So that’s kinda been my passion. And the way I sort of think through media history, media literacy history is this battle between what happens in the media studies world and what happens in the Media Literacy Education world. And how maybe we can be less reactive and more proactive in media literacy education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> I want to bring it to Kiera, who I’m so happy to have on this panel, because I feel like when we get up in theories and ideas, you being at school really brings us back down to the rubber meets the road, ‘what does this look like in classrooms?’ So can you maybe talk about some of the challenges that you’re seeing with media literacy in your position in schools?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> The biggest thing that teachers are always gonna say is that they need time. And then also, they say I can’t add one more thing onto my plate. And so the problem with that though is that when we see media literacy as some sort of other, then it gets left by the wayside because they’re gonna focus on their content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>Whereas like I try to emphasize with my teachers, media literacy isn’t another thing, it becomes the lens through which you can teach your content. Media literacy, when it’s done well, you’re not just looking at the film or the message or the content of whatever you’re looking at, whatever media that you’re interacting with, but you’re also looking at the form and the choices that were made in production that impact how you, the viewer, you, the consumer, interacts with that media.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Thank you, and I’m curious, Steve, if you have anything to add to that, because I know that Braver Angels is in the business of creating containers for better conversations, which I think is a big part of media literacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>What we’re focused on is the idea that everyone has a perspective and a point of view, including the media you consume. We have one program called Walk a Mile in My News. So you take two people who have very different viewpoints, and they actually switch the kinds of media they consume. And then they talk about that. And they realize, well, wait a minute, I’m missing things, because I’m not reading what the other person is reading, and much of this is not that one is right or one is wrong, it’s just to appreciate the fact that others have perspectives that are quite different from you, and if you have ground rules that set the stage for a respectful dialog about that, you can really get to a further appreciation of what the topic is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard of other teachers doing activities where they have their students swap phones and go through each other’s feeds to see what are you seeing? How is it different from what I’m seeing? Kiera, have you seen any activities that have actually been successful in having students realize that what I see is not what everybody sees?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard teachers where they will print out articles and they remove all identifying features of the article so that they’re just looking at the language that is used in the article. And based on the word choice, you can kind of see, oh, based on how they’re talking about this topic, you can guess, is it left leaning, is right leaning? And it kind of calls to mind the ultimate promise of media literacy, which is like looking at the form, right? What is the structure and how is it used and what choices are being used. But there’s also perspectives that are noticeably absent and it’s helping the students recognize who’s not part of this conversation. Just being aware of like, oh, there is more to this and how can I go out and find that missing perspective and bring it in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And I want to bring you into this too, Tanner. Are there tech tools or ed tech tools that can kind of foster this idea that, like I might be seeing like a certain thing, but I am aware that there is a bigger story or a bigger narrative out there beyond what I see on my own feeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Since I would say 2016, there’s been a growing sector within ed tech specifically focused on various approaches to what one might call fake news. I’m of two minds about these tools because I think one of the tricky things with media literacy in particular is if the medium is the message. Then you need to engage with the medium to understand it. Tools that recreate media and try and like, especially for younger kids, approximate what a newsfeed would look like. I think it can be very challenging to get something that feels authentic to them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>My recommendation is when possible to get kids engaging with the actual media itself. Otherwise, it’s like you’re teaching film studies by having students reading film synopses or something instead of looking at the actual film.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>I think we need to increasingly figure out how to manage privacy and safety and maturity level of kids, but get them as much exposure to the actual media and thinking through the media in authentic environments as possible, because that’s what’s actually gonna serve them well when they are. You know, maybe sneaking some usage of things that we otherwise might not approve of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> When you were speaking, my brain snagged on, you mentioned fake news and I think even the words misinformation and disinformation can be kind of like politically coded and can feel a little bit divisive. Media literacy, I think we talked about this too, can be a non-partisan issue. What are some shared concerns that parents and educators across ideological lines can actually come together on?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think particularly at this moment in time, it can feel like in education, there’s no common ground. But media literacy is one of, it has universal support. I think it’s somewhere around, media literacy now did a survey, like 84% of adults think it should be required in classrooms. And when you ask teens, 94% think it should be require in classrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>Everyone wants kids to be knowledgeable, thoughtful, critical thinkers. I mean, everyone wants that. It’s at the heart of education, right? Media literacy is at the core of what we want education to do, which is to empower people to be self-determined, to think for themselves, and to explore and engage with the world thoughtfully. There is no debate around whether that’s important or not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I would add to that, for the average teacher, they don’t have the background of media studies to then feel comfortable talking about it in their classes. And so it gets put onto the wayside. And so I think it’s interesting that we see this universal need for it. But then the question is, how do we empower teachers to do it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> What we find in the classroom, both in secondary schools and university, and really adults as well, is that with a few simple techniques, you can really get a good dialog going to make sure all these perspectives are heard and things like that. I mean, so a couple of just simple ground rules, right, of respectful conversation, especially body language, so no rolling of your eyes, sighing and things that, and just state them is a big deal. And then what we use is a very simple technique called LAPP for listen, acknowledge, pivot and perspective. And really the main thing about all of that is that the speaker needs to feel that they are understood. So when you listen, you’re not listening to frame a reply, you’re listening to understand. In Texas we call it, you listen to understand not reload. You know, and so, and that’s hard work. That’s hard, right? And then the pivot is to actually ask permission before you share your perspective. So someone would say, I hear you. This is what, you know, there’s an element I agree with. At the very least, you can say, it’s clearly an emotional topic for you. And then along, something along the lines of, you know I’ve been doing some reading on this, or I’ve seen some things on this. Would you mind if I share my perspective? And then if the other person says, sure, well then you now have permission to share a differing perspective. And that is handled differently than if the first reply you have is let me tell you my perspective, let me you what the truth is, right? That’s gonna be resisted. We find that as an amazingly powerful technique to use in these discussions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>It sounds like that process slows down the conversation in a way where it’s not as reactive. And that seems like a really important component of a conversation not kind of devolving into, I don’t know, finger pointing or talking past each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>What we find is many people are hesitant to share a view, especially a view that might be in the minority in a given group, right? And if they feel heard, if someone says what you’re saying is blah, right, whether you agree with blah or not, right. But I now feel heard. Then there’s all sorts of trust that starts being built. There’s all sorts of personalization that starts being built. And the tenor of the conversation changes dramatically. So it’s not a battle of wills. “I’m right, you’re wrong.” It’s “Let’s understand each other” because both of us probably missed something in understanding this complicated thing, whatever it is, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> And I wonder, this is maybe something that Steve, you, and maybe Kiera, you as well, can weigh in on. I do feel like when we get into things that are related to maybe identity, social identity, things that are seen as values or like close to personhood, those can get really, really emotional very fast and they’re kind of unwieldy. It can be hard, I would think as an educator, to facilitate those conversations, and I know it’s really hard to be in those conversations. Do you have any strategies for, it sounds like LAPP could work for something like that. Are there any other things you’ve found that work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> One of my favorites, and it sounds so simple, but having sentence stems available for students… I’ve seen elementary school teachers through middle and high school, when you’re going to have a conversation, and if it’s going to be about a heated topic, you have kind of these sentence starters of like, okay, I see where you’re coming from, or this is my perspective, or. And there’s like a whole list of them. But I think it helps give students a framework for having a conversation, right? And I loved what you said about slowing the conversation down because a lot of what we see online is people share immediately out of strong emotion, right, either anger or fear or whatever the case may be. And so slowing down the reaction and really getting at “why do I react this way? Why am I feeling this way?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick:\u003c/strong> One thing we’ve found with Braver Angels is that the importance of structure, right? So we will have some simple ground rules and there’s also a clear structure to the conversation. You know, here’s what we’re doing, here is how we’re going to do it, you know, here’s some very simple ground roles but it’s not just a free for all of everybody jumping in, talking over one another, all of that. By having ground rules and a structure to the conversation, you create a much open space for people to share their ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>Tanner, was there anything you wanted to add to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> I’m really struck by this notion of identity and values and how it comes into play in the interpretation of media and how we receive it and understand it and what we cling to. And one thing I’ve really been doing a lot of thinking about is like, I picture this as a relatively modern phenomenon, I think spurred by social media and how as a medium, conditions culture in a way, where false beliefs, false belief systems, conspiracy theories, can fuse to people’s identities now. And that is something that any number of skills can’t unwind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>You can teach people in that position all of the media literacy skills in the world and Dana Boyd had a great talk on this, titled, “Did Media Literacy Backfire?” because she was observing how in some of these communities, critical thinking skills get applied. They just go the wrong way. But I believe, I hypothesize, that to untether false belief from identity takes humility. And that is in very short supply in the world of social media. We’re almost conditioned against it. And people with false beliefs that are tethered to their identity, it becomes like their entire world can come crumbling down if they are to take a different view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>And that’s why I think media literacy needs to not just be about skills, it needs to be about character. And social-emotional learning and that I haven’t seen many approaches that really take that seriously. I think there are some but I think a lot more work to be done and there’s a lot of research to be done in maybe proving me correct or half correct or completely false.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir: \u003c/strong>That does make me think of, Kiera, you posed a question when you were answering a question earlier, which was teachers need to be kind of empowered to kind of take on media literacy. And from what Tanner said, it is kind of a tall order. What do you think teachers need to get that work started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>My answer to this is always to start small, because I don’t want to overwhelm teachers, but I do want to start, right? Find a direction and head in that direction. The resources, The SIFT from the news literacy project, so it’s a newsletter they put out each week. In it, they have rumor guard where they take a viral piece of media and they break down why it went viral and what was true and what is false and kind of helping reinforce those skills. That we want our students to gain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>And I think something as simple as a media moment, right? Where a teacher could be a classroom starter, it could be an exit ticket, it could anything that you just have two minutes, three minutes, pop up a piece of media, and this can be anything, right, because text is very broadly based. But then you have your students practice those skills, you’re reinforcing those skills. And as a teacher, you don’t have to have a degree in media analyzes, but you’re helping them break down not only what are they seeing, like what is the content, but you also ask them questions about how it was created and what is meaning behind how it is created.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> MindShift is all about solutions. I think it’s easy to get kind of mired in the work that needs to be done. But I’m wondering, for all three of you, if you can share an example of someone who’s doing this work well, whether it’s an organization or an experience that you’ve had where it’s gone really positively. You got one, Steve?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Saltwick: \u003c/strong>Well, I would say Braver Angels, right? I mean, what a layup, okay, right, but I certainly know one thing that strikes me about Braver Angels. It started in 2016 where a group of Trump voters and a group Hillary voters got very worried about the state of the country and it was all adults, right-typically retired adults and all of that. And then subsequently has branched out to college campuses, high schools, some middle schools. And we do workshops, and I’ve moderated many of those workshops. I’ve probably seen about 100 workshops, and probably 20%, 30% of them have been in the high school and college area. What always strikes me is really unbelievable is the thirst that I see in students to have real conversations about this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I have two that came to mind. One is very similar to the work that Braver Angels is doing, so the Dignity Index, they’ve developed this ranking scale of public speech and whether or not it gives dignity to the people that they’re talking about, which is a fascinating way of looking at how we talk about other people, especially people we disagree with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>You can look at articles, you can look at speech, you can also look at conversations between students, right? What kind of dignity are you offering the other person and how are you validating their perspective? So that’s one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes: \u003c/strong>The second one and I’m not just saying this but I honestly believe this: KQED teach has a whole bunch of mini courses for educators about this very topic. One is how to teach students how to look at the form and how to analyze media and how did look at bias and And how to like share their perspectives, which is great. That’s kind of the back end, the theory behind media literacy. But then they also offer very practical, like, this is how to do video projects in your class. This is how do photo projects in our class. Like you learn the theory and then you apply it and I love it. So those are my two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> We did not pay Kiera to say that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera Beddes:\u003c/strong> I honestly love it so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin:\u003c/strong> I’ll point to the Center for Digital Thriving out of Harvard, I think, is doing some really path-breaking work around digital well-being specifically, which I think is an increasingly important part of media literacy, is getting students to reflect on the presence of smartphones in their lives and to think critically about it and decide for themselves what purpose it should serve and if it’s serving those purposes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>And to that end, that research group at the Center for Digital Thriving developed an activity that’s rooted in Harvard’s long-term Project Zero Thinking Routines framework, like real simple pedagogical moves anyone can apply to just about any learning scenario. And they’ve developed one of these called The Value Sort, where you get students to choose from a big board of values which ones kind of represent them, like which ones they hold really dear. And then you can use that as a sort of critical lens to apply to just about anything in the media world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tanner Higgin: \u003c/strong>So their example is using that value sort to get students to think about their usage of smartphones, track like what they’re doing on their smartphones, and then go, hey, remember those values that you hold dear? Like how are those being represented in that activity or not, right? And I think that’s a way of. Of providing students with a really interesting lens to make sure that like what they’re consuming and doing is in standing with what they truly believe and their image of themselves. And I think that’s like, to me that’s a picture of the future of media literacy is this merging of traditional critical thinking skills with values and character-based education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Can we give a round of applause to our panelists?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> That was Tanner Higgin, Kiera Bettes, and Steve Saltwick at the SXSW EDU Conference in Austin, Texas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"radiolab": {
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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},
"selected-shorts": {
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"title": "Selected Shorts",
"info": "Spellbinding short stories by established and emerging writers take on a new life when they are performed by stars of the stage and screen.",
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"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
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},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
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