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Join host Olivia Allen-Price to explore all aspects of the Bay Area – from the debate over \"Frisco\", to the dinosaurs that once roamed California, to the causes of homelessness. Whether you lived here your whole life, or just arrived, Bay Curious will deepen your understanding of this place you call home.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Looking for more ways to get involved? Play our \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious#hearken-10392\">trivia contest\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">sign up for our newsletter\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/7325022/e2726178469b\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">take our latest survey\u003c/a>, and \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/baycuriousbook\">check out our book\u003c/a>.","blurbImageAlt":"Bay Curious","blurbImageUrl":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","previewID":"news_11156856","hasSponsorLogo":true},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"iframeId":"656","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Voting Round"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Voting Round","iframeId":"4627","className":"half-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/post-list","attrs":{"layout":"cardsRecent","query":"posts?series=baycurious&queryId=10d86cbbaf3","title":"Stories","seeMore":true,"sizeBase":6,"sizeSeeMore":6},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/hearken","attrs":{"header":"Monthly Trivia Contest","summary":"Thanks for playing our trivia game, sponsored by Sierra Nevada Brewing Company! From all correct entries, we'll randomly select one winner each month for the prize pack of Bay Curious and Sierra Nevada goodies (Approximate value $50).","iframeId":"10392","className":"full-width"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/listen-and-subscribe","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/email-signup","attrs":{"newsletterSlug":"baycurious"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/columns","attrs":{"heading":"Contact / Follow"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/column","attrs":{"heading":"Follow Us"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/heading","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/section","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]},{"blockName":"core/paragraph","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies","attrs":{"heading":"The Bay Curious Team","bioType":"white"},"innerBlocks":[{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/11/IMG_2562-e1572650381510.jpg","mediaAlt":"Olivia Allen-Price","name":"Olivia Allen-Price","position":"Host / Editor","bio":"Olivia is a big believer in the value of public-powered journalism. She helped launch \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> as a radio series in 2015, then turned it into a podcast in 2017. Before working on the show, Olivia was an engagement producer at KQED. She's also worked at \u003cem>The Baltimore Sun\u003c/em> and \u003cem>The Virginian-Pilot\u003c/em>. When not tethered to a computer by a pair of headphones, Olivia loves running, playing with other people's dogs and taking weekend trips around California. Follow her on \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Twitter\u003c/a> or \u003ca href=\"https://instagram.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Instagram.\u003c/a>","link":"/author/oallenprice"},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/biographies-item","attrs":{"mediaURL":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a6a567574dafefa959593925eead665c?s=600&d=https://i.imgur.com/u9MDiPR.png&r=g","mediaAlt":"Katrina Schwartz","name":"Katrina Schwartz","position":"Producer","bio":"Katrina grew up in San Francisco and loves learning new things about her hometown. She helped pilot the first iteration of\u003cem> Bay Curious\u003c/em> when it was just a radio feature. Before joining the team, Katrina reported on education for \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> and was a finalist for the Education Writers Association beat reporting and audio storytelling awards. She co-hosts the \u003cem>MindShift\u003c/em> podcast about the future of learning, and has been making radio since 2010. When she’s not reporting, Katrina loves reading, the ocean and the mountains, and playing ultimate frisbee.","link":""},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"innerHTML":"\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n","innerContent":["\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">",null,"\n\n",null,"\u003c/div>\n"]},{"blockName":"kqed/ad","attrs":[],"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]},{"blockName":"kqed/programs","attrs":{"title":"We Also Recommend","programIDs":["mindshift","rightnowish","soldout","onourwatch","thebay","forum"]},"innerBlocks":[],"innerHTML":"","innerContent":[]}],"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1717716140,"format":"standard","path":"/podcasts/baycurious","redirect":{"type":"internal","url":"/podcasts/baycurious"},"audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken half-width\">\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-hearken full-width\">\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-columns\">\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Contact Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Send us a note at \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-column\">\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Follow Us\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-section\">\n\u003cp>Follow us on Instagram:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/oallenprice/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on Twitter:\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/kqedbaycurious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@kqedbaycurious\u003c/a>\u003cbr>\u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/oallenprice\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">@oallenprice\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-kqed-biographies\">\n\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"featImg":"root-site_21263","label":"root-site","isLoading":false}},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_12010708":{"type":"posts","id":"news_12010708","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"12010708","score":null,"sort":[1729764017000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"how-often-should-wild-lands-burn-to-stay-healthy","title":"How Often Should Wild Lands Burn to Stay Healthy?","publishDate":1729764017,"format":"audio","headTitle":"How Often Should Wild Lands Burn to Stay Healthy? | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>California has more than 33 million acres of forest land, which makes up about a third of the state’s total area, plus grasslands, chaparral and other wild lands. For decades we’ve done everything to prevent fires in wild spaces and put them out as quickly as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s getting harder and harder as recent wildfire seasons have brought massive, super destructive fires. [baycuriousbug] But part of the reason for that is because of all the fire suppression that has been done. Forests need to burn sometimes, and fairly often, in order to clear out the fuels that lead to the gigantic blazes that destroy too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So how much \u003cem>should \u003c/em>be burning every year? In this episode of Bay Curious we speak to KQED Science reporter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a>, who has covered California wildfires extensively, to find out the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8933954289\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone – Olivia Allen-Price here. I don’t know about you, but October is the time of year where I feel like we reach peak crispy. The hills in the Bay Area are completely golden … and so many plants have become spiky and brittle. The natural world is clearly ready for the first big rain of the season – and quite frankly, so am I.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But until it comes, we live under threat of wildfire. That’s been on the mind of one of our listeners …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot\u003c/strong>: I’m Pete Smoot. I live in South San Jose. I’ve been living here for many decades at this point … and I love hiking around in our parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> As he hikes around, he thinks a lot about wildfire – and how it’s both vital to the health of our ecosystems … but how it can also have devastating consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> We keep hearing that we have record numbers of acres of forest burning. And I keep wondering, well, forest people say that the forest should burn all the time just for forest health. What should a normal forest fire year look like? How many acres should be burning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve wondered this too. Today on the show we’ll take a long view at what wildfire looked like in California before colonization – and try to parse out what “normal” should look like today. Plus, we’ll answer this second question from Pete…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> I live near Quicksilver Park and it’s never had a wildfire in there in all the time I’ve been living here. And I’m kind of wondering like how due are we for a fire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sponsor Message]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Pete Smoot has a lot of great questions about wildfires – ones that many of you might have considered too, especially if you live near a fire prone area. Or open land that just looks like it’s ready to burn. Danielle Venton is a climate reporter at KQED, and has been covering wildfires for nine years. Welcome, Danielle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, Pete’s got a few questions, but let’s start with this one:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> What should a normal forest fire year look like? How many acres should be burning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I love this question because it recognizes that fire is this natural, necessary component of the California landscape. We are amid fire adapted ecosystems! And also because this is a really key question for California to come to grips with. But it’s kind of hard and complicated to answer because even if we reconstruct the past, we live in a different reality now. And so the past can’t be a perfect guide of the future but it can be a good place to start considering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s look at California … pre-settlement. What was the scene like then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> There was a lot of fire. Both because native people intentionally set fires and because lightning generated fires didn’t get put out. Early accounts of people from European descent visiting the area mention a constant light haze in the sky from the wildfire smoke. So crystal clear skies– not normal. And because there was frequent fire, forests had this open, park-like feeling. You could ride through on horseback, stretch your arms out and not get tangled in anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, it’s hard to imagine that. Haha. Do we know how many acres would have burned?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We have an estimate from fire researchers at Berkeley whose work shows an average of around four and a half million acres burned each year. Certainly some years there would be a lot more, some years a lot less. But that number really points to how important fire was in California\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, should that be our goal? Well, I asked Scott Stephens, one of the principal researchers behind this work if that’s a number we should strive for and he said definitely not. He said: “I would never use that number as a goal today, there’s been too much land use change in the state. Including that the whole Central Valley now in agriculture, other valleys used for housing, agriculture, and so on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, we shouldn’t strive for 4 million acres. This year we’re closing in on a million acres. Last 5-year-average is around 370 thousand acres a year, so a whole lot less. This number can be all over the place. In 2020 it was over 4 million, so that’s the closest in recent historic long, long-term average.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I mean I remember the 2020 fire season and it felt … apocalyptic, really. I mean. That was the year we had the notorious “orange skies day,” with ash raining down all over the region. So it’s wild to think of that as a normal year, if you take the long view into our past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah well, California is so different now that I don’t think it’s fair to consider that a normal year, even if the acreage approached the historic average. Those fires were not burning like they would have 200 years ago. They were burning hot, they were damaging, they were killing mature trees. They were sterilizing soil. We shouldn’t hold up 2020 as something to aspire to, by any means. How the land burns, the effects of the fire, are crucially important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ok, but is there a sense of … land should burn every 20 years, every 50 years or 100 years, or anything like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it depends on the dominant vegetation is where you are. Scientists have made incredibly detailed estimates of average fire return intervals for certain areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oak woodland, maybe one of my favorite ecosystems, the sort of average fire return interval should be around every 12 years. So pretty frequent. Redwood forests, a little bit more, it’s about 23. Lodgepole pine – 37. Dry mixed conifer – 11. Interestingly, chaparral should only get fire about once every 100 years. We’re seeing chaparral burn way too frequently. So it’s all in what’s natural for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that has me thinking about the redwood forests near me, when was the last time they burned. It definitely wasn’t within the last 23 years. So how far we’ve gotten from some of these regimes, basically how often and intensely an area burns regularly, it’s pretty dramatic really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so circling back to Pete’s question about how many acres should burn in California. It sounds like the answer is obviously not 4 million acres, like once burned pre-colonization, because we’ve converted a lot of how we use land. It’s farmland, or we’ve developed it in other ways. But Is there a number of acres that’s kind of like … what should be our goal given how land is used today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked Scott Stephens, one of the researchers who found the 4 million acre number. And he pointed out that the state of Florida burns over a 1 million acres a year with prescribed fire. Mostly that’s in forests on private land by private people… and that the state’s doing this for decades. Maybe, he suggested, maybe we could use 1 million acres of healthy burning as a reasonable goal for CA. This year, we’ve done only a fraction of that in prescribed fire. Around 150,000 acres, which is not nothing, but there’s a long way to go still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow! And I’m imagining that since California is about two and a half times the size of Florida, is 1 million acres even like pretty conservative– a low goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> That’s true, but in Florida the laws and culture are oriented towards this good fire… this prescribed fire. But let’s be clear that even in saying ‘1 million is a nice goal’…we’re talking about a sort of fantasy scenario, where we have healthy forests that have caught up with fire that’s been deprived to them. And again, the effects that fire is having is more important than trying to reach certain numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Can you take us through one of these prescribed fires and how they work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah! I’ve observed a couple and they are really fun. They’re even joyful. It feels very different from being out at a wildfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s always a burn boss in charge and sometimes they’re a bit stressed because if anything goes wrong they’re responsible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So here’s how this works: There’s a lot of planning ahead of time, studies, permits, weather forecasts, smoke mitigation plans – often you want to do a fire at a time when the weather is calm, but you’re expecting some wind in the next day or two to carry the smoke away from the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then the day of the fire a line is built. Which is basically a box that the fire is supposed to be in, and supposed to stay in. A line is cleared of anything that can burn, like a literal line on the ground, so it’s scraped down to mineral soil. And then sometimes wetted with a water hose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are different teams. There’s the firing team and they have drip torches. They actually put fire on the ground and I hear that’s the most fun. They kind of look like painters brushing along the ground. They use different patterns depending on what they want to do. The most experienced know to use no more than they need. Newbies can be very enthusiastic, and have a tendency to overdo it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of crackling fire and footsteps in the forest]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I went to a fire, it was a training fire, along the Klamath river in the town of Orleans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scot Steinbring:\u003c/strong> So our objective is, is one: we’re learning and working together. Number two is that we want to burn something. This is 12 acres. It’s divided into three sections…(fades under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So there’s the firing team, and then there’s this other team, the holding team, and they’re at the line making sure the fire doesn’t cross over, ready to stamp it out if it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And throughout all of this the burn boss is watching everything, she or he is noting how long the flame lengths are, how far embers are traveling, what sound the fire is making. And they’re doing any adjustments on the fly as they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now our listener, Pete Smoot – who I spoke to in late July – he mentioned that he hikes at Quicksilver Park in Santa Clara County, and that it hasn’t burned in his recent memory. And he’s lived in his house for 30 years. nearby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Right and since we spoke, there were actually two fires. One was in the park and one was close to it. So, I wanted to know about that fire that was in the park, and what the fire history of the park is, so I called up Captain Brian Christensen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> I’m Brian Christensen with the Santa Clara County Parks and Rec department. I’m the captain for one of our regions and a fire liaison for our agency as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I asked him how often fire was seen in the area pre-western settlement. And I was surprised about how much detail they know about this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> There’s a few historical documents that are out there when it comes to Santa Clara County. And there’s a 5 to 7 regime, sometimes there’s a 7 to 10, and then a 10 to 15 that usually occurs, depending on where it’s at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So basically the county is supposed to burn somewhere every 5 to 15 years. A whole lot more frequently than it really has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that really surprises me. Way more than they’ve seen. You know Pete also asked if Quicksilver Park was “due” for a fire — so sounds like the answer is yes, but with the recent fires… maybe it got some?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> It did get some. You could say it was due for a fire in strictly an ecological sense. But fire is not welcome in this land. The fires pop up from time to time. Christensen said he can remember two from this year, three from last year…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> But those fires are being suppressed, right? This park is not getting burned every 5 to 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. And there isn’t really a fire regime that’s in there. And we do partner with our partnering agencies like Cal Fire, City of San Jose and County Fire. Just for a few of them to put those fires out in those areas, just like we had a recent one that started within the park, and we kept it within the park, where it did not get outside of those areas and threaten any type of subdivisions or other structures in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> He says right there, there is no fire regime in the park now. When I asked him about the use of prescribed fire he said it could be something they might consider in the future, but there are no current plans for it. So it’s been a long time since the full area burned. Christensen said it probably hadn’t burned since the 1800s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The recent fire that happened in the park was really small. So the Hicks Fire burned about 4 acres in a canyon. It was suppressed quickly. But Christiansen says it behaved mildly. It cleaned up some dead trees, and left the big ones alive. It was very helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s definitely good for that land. It burns that small stuff, that understory. And it takes care of that ladder fuels. Right. You have to have that nexus for fires to go big.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Ladder fuels are the brush, and twigs and branches that act like mid-size kindling and allow a fire on the ground to climb up into the canopy. Getting up into the canopy is what leads to crown fires, and the types we want to avoid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> And the grasses will be back to it next year, along with their flowers and forbs. And it’ll be a beautiful wildflower display underneath those areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So! Our listener Peet Smoot might be in for a real treat next spring if his hiking brings him near this area, which is the southeast side of the Guadalupe Reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well in all this, at least there’s some wildflowers to look forward to. Danielle – KQED science reporter – It is always a pleasure. Thanks so much for stopping by!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Thank you Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One note, Danielle and I had this conversation in mid-August and since then more than 1 million acres have burned by wildfire in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big thanks to Pete Smoot for asking this week’s question. If there’s something you’re been wondering about the San Francisco Bay Area – head online to BayCurious.org and ask!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Annie Fruit, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and I hope you have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Wildfires conjure up images of terrible destruction, but some fire is not only good, but essential to wild land health. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1729789261,"stats":{"hasAudio":true,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":72,"wordCount":3002},"headData":{"title":"How Often Should Wild Lands Burn to Stay Healthy? | KQED","description":"Wildfires conjure up images of terrible destruction, but some fire is not only good, but essential to wild land health. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"How Often Should Wild Lands Burn to Stay Healthy?","datePublished":"2024-10-24T03:00:17-07:00","dateModified":"2024-10-24T10:01:01-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8933954289.mp3?updated=1729714047","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-12010708","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/12010708/how-often-should-wild-lands-burn-to-stay-healthy","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>California has more than 33 million acres of forest land, which makes up about a third of the state’s total area, plus grasslands, chaparral and other wild lands. For decades we’ve done everything to prevent fires in wild spaces and put them out as quickly as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s getting harder and harder as recent wildfire seasons have brought massive, super destructive fires. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> But part of the reason for that is because of all the fire suppression that has been done. Forests need to burn sometimes, and fairly often, in order to clear out the fuels that lead to the gigantic blazes that destroy too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So how much \u003cem>should \u003c/em>be burning every year? In this episode of Bay Curious we speak to KQED Science reporter \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/author/dventon\">Danielle Venton\u003c/a>, who has covered California wildfires extensively, to find out the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8933954289\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone – Olivia Allen-Price here. I don’t know about you, but October is the time of year where I feel like we reach peak crispy. The hills in the Bay Area are completely golden … and so many plants have become spiky and brittle. The natural world is clearly ready for the first big rain of the season – and quite frankly, so am I.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But until it comes, we live under threat of wildfire. That’s been on the mind of one of our listeners …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot\u003c/strong>: I’m Pete Smoot. I live in South San Jose. I’ve been living here for many decades at this point … and I love hiking around in our parks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> As he hikes around, he thinks a lot about wildfire – and how it’s both vital to the health of our ecosystems … but how it can also have devastating consequences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> We keep hearing that we have record numbers of acres of forest burning. And I keep wondering, well, forest people say that the forest should burn all the time just for forest health. What should a normal forest fire year look like? How many acres should be burning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve wondered this too. Today on the show we’ll take a long view at what wildfire looked like in California before colonization – and try to parse out what “normal” should look like today. Plus, we’ll answer this second question from Pete…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> I live near Quicksilver Park and it’s never had a wildfire in there in all the time I’ve been living here. And I’m kind of wondering like how due are we for a fire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious, the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Sponsor Message]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Pete Smoot has a lot of great questions about wildfires – ones that many of you might have considered too, especially if you live near a fire prone area. Or open land that just looks like it’s ready to burn. Danielle Venton is a climate reporter at KQED, and has been covering wildfires for nine years. Welcome, Danielle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, Pete’s got a few questions, but let’s start with this one:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> What should a normal forest fire year look like? How many acres should be burning?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I love this question because it recognizes that fire is this natural, necessary component of the California landscape. We are amid fire adapted ecosystems! And also because this is a really key question for California to come to grips with. But it’s kind of hard and complicated to answer because even if we reconstruct the past, we live in a different reality now. And so the past can’t be a perfect guide of the future but it can be a good place to start considering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s look at California … pre-settlement. What was the scene like then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> There was a lot of fire. Both because native people intentionally set fires and because lightning generated fires didn’t get put out. Early accounts of people from European descent visiting the area mention a constant light haze in the sky from the wildfire smoke. So crystal clear skies– not normal. And because there was frequent fire, forests had this open, park-like feeling. You could ride through on horseback, stretch your arms out and not get tangled in anything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, it’s hard to imagine that. Haha. Do we know how many acres would have burned?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah. We have an estimate from fire researchers at Berkeley whose work shows an average of around four and a half million acres burned each year. Certainly some years there would be a lot more, some years a lot less. But that number really points to how important fire was in California\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, should that be our goal? Well, I asked Scott Stephens, one of the principal researchers behind this work if that’s a number we should strive for and he said definitely not. He said: “I would never use that number as a goal today, there’s been too much land use change in the state. Including that the whole Central Valley now in agriculture, other valleys used for housing, agriculture, and so on.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, we shouldn’t strive for 4 million acres. This year we’re closing in on a million acres. Last 5-year-average is around 370 thousand acres a year, so a whole lot less. This number can be all over the place. In 2020 it was over 4 million, so that’s the closest in recent historic long, long-term average.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I mean I remember the 2020 fire season and it felt … apocalyptic, really. I mean. That was the year we had the notorious “orange skies day,” with ash raining down all over the region. So it’s wild to think of that as a normal year, if you take the long view into our past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah well, California is so different now that I don’t think it’s fair to consider that a normal year, even if the acreage approached the historic average. Those fires were not burning like they would have 200 years ago. They were burning hot, they were damaging, they were killing mature trees. They were sterilizing soil. We shouldn’t hold up 2020 as something to aspire to, by any means. How the land burns, the effects of the fire, are crucially important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ok, but is there a sense of … land should burn every 20 years, every 50 years or 100 years, or anything like that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it depends on the dominant vegetation is where you are. Scientists have made incredibly detailed estimates of average fire return intervals for certain areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oak woodland, maybe one of my favorite ecosystems, the sort of average fire return interval should be around every 12 years. So pretty frequent. Redwood forests, a little bit more, it’s about 23. Lodgepole pine – 37. Dry mixed conifer – 11. Interestingly, chaparral should only get fire about once every 100 years. We’re seeing chaparral burn way too frequently. So it’s all in what’s natural for the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that has me thinking about the redwood forests near me, when was the last time they burned. It definitely wasn’t within the last 23 years. So how far we’ve gotten from some of these regimes, basically how often and intensely an area burns regularly, it’s pretty dramatic really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah, absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so circling back to Pete’s question about how many acres should burn in California. It sounds like the answer is obviously not 4 million acres, like once burned pre-colonization, because we’ve converted a lot of how we use land. It’s farmland, or we’ve developed it in other ways. But Is there a number of acres that’s kind of like … what should be our goal given how land is used today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Well, I asked Scott Stephens, one of the researchers who found the 4 million acre number. And he pointed out that the state of Florida burns over a 1 million acres a year with prescribed fire. Mostly that’s in forests on private land by private people… and that the state’s doing this for decades. Maybe, he suggested, maybe we could use 1 million acres of healthy burning as a reasonable goal for CA. This year, we’ve done only a fraction of that in prescribed fire. Around 150,000 acres, which is not nothing, but there’s a long way to go still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow! And I’m imagining that since California is about two and a half times the size of Florida, is 1 million acres even like pretty conservative– a low goal?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> That’s true, but in Florida the laws and culture are oriented towards this good fire… this prescribed fire. But let’s be clear that even in saying ‘1 million is a nice goal’…we’re talking about a sort of fantasy scenario, where we have healthy forests that have caught up with fire that’s been deprived to them. And again, the effects that fire is having is more important than trying to reach certain numbers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Can you take us through one of these prescribed fires and how they work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Yeah! I’ve observed a couple and they are really fun. They’re even joyful. It feels very different from being out at a wildfire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s always a burn boss in charge and sometimes they’re a bit stressed because if anything goes wrong they’re responsible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So here’s how this works: There’s a lot of planning ahead of time, studies, permits, weather forecasts, smoke mitigation plans – often you want to do a fire at a time when the weather is calm, but you’re expecting some wind in the next day or two to carry the smoke away from the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then the day of the fire a line is built. Which is basically a box that the fire is supposed to be in, and supposed to stay in. A line is cleared of anything that can burn, like a literal line on the ground, so it’s scraped down to mineral soil. And then sometimes wetted with a water hose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are different teams. There’s the firing team and they have drip torches. They actually put fire on the ground and I hear that’s the most fun. They kind of look like painters brushing along the ground. They use different patterns depending on what they want to do. The most experienced know to use no more than they need. Newbies can be very enthusiastic, and have a tendency to overdo it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of crackling fire and footsteps in the forest]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I went to a fire, it was a training fire, along the Klamath river in the town of Orleans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scot Steinbring:\u003c/strong> So our objective is, is one: we’re learning and working together. Number two is that we want to burn something. This is 12 acres. It’s divided into three sections…(fades under)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So there’s the firing team, and then there’s this other team, the holding team, and they’re at the line making sure the fire doesn’t cross over, ready to stamp it out if it does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And throughout all of this the burn boss is watching everything, she or he is noting how long the flame lengths are, how far embers are traveling, what sound the fire is making. And they’re doing any adjustments on the fly as they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now our listener, Pete Smoot – who I spoke to in late July – he mentioned that he hikes at Quicksilver Park in Santa Clara County, and that it hasn’t burned in his recent memory. And he’s lived in his house for 30 years. nearby\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Right and since we spoke, there were actually two fires. One was in the park and one was close to it. So, I wanted to know about that fire that was in the park, and what the fire history of the park is, so I called up Captain Brian Christensen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> I’m Brian Christensen with the Santa Clara County Parks and Rec department. I’m the captain for one of our regions and a fire liaison for our agency as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> I asked him how often fire was seen in the area pre-western settlement. And I was surprised about how much detail they know about this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> There’s a few historical documents that are out there when it comes to Santa Clara County. And there’s a 5 to 7 regime, sometimes there’s a 7 to 10, and then a 10 to 15 that usually occurs, depending on where it’s at.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So basically the county is supposed to burn somewhere every 5 to 15 years. A whole lot more frequently than it really has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that really surprises me. Way more than they’ve seen. You know Pete also asked if Quicksilver Park was “due” for a fire — so sounds like the answer is yes, but with the recent fires… maybe it got some?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> It did get some. You could say it was due for a fire in strictly an ecological sense. But fire is not welcome in this land. The fires pop up from time to time. Christensen said he can remember two from this year, three from last year…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> But those fires are being suppressed, right? This park is not getting burned every 5 to 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. And there isn’t really a fire regime that’s in there. And we do partner with our partnering agencies like Cal Fire, City of San Jose and County Fire. Just for a few of them to put those fires out in those areas, just like we had a recent one that started within the park, and we kept it within the park, where it did not get outside of those areas and threaten any type of subdivisions or other structures in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> He says right there, there is no fire regime in the park now. When I asked him about the use of prescribed fire he said it could be something they might consider in the future, but there are no current plans for it. So it’s been a long time since the full area burned. Christensen said it probably hadn’t burned since the 1800s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The recent fire that happened in the park was really small. So the Hicks Fire burned about 4 acres in a canyon. It was suppressed quickly. But Christiansen says it behaved mildly. It cleaned up some dead trees, and left the big ones alive. It was very helpful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> Yeah. It’s definitely good for that land. It burns that small stuff, that understory. And it takes care of that ladder fuels. Right. You have to have that nexus for fires to go big.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Ladder fuels are the brush, and twigs and branches that act like mid-size kindling and allow a fire on the ground to climb up into the canopy. Getting up into the canopy is what leads to crown fires, and the types we want to avoid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Christensen:\u003c/strong> And the grasses will be back to it next year, along with their flowers and forbs. And it’ll be a beautiful wildflower display underneath those areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> So! Our listener Peet Smoot might be in for a real treat next spring if his hiking brings him near this area, which is the southeast side of the Guadalupe Reservoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well in all this, at least there’s some wildflowers to look forward to. Danielle – KQED science reporter – It is always a pleasure. Thanks so much for stopping by!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle Venton:\u003c/strong> Thank you Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One note, Danielle and I had this conversation in mid-August and since then more than 1 million acres have burned by wildfire in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big thanks to Pete Smoot for asking this week’s question. If there’s something you’re been wondering about the San Francisco Bay Area – head online to BayCurious.org and ask!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pete Smoot:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Annie Fruit, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and I hope you have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/12010708/how-often-should-wild-lands-burn-to-stay-healthy","authors":["8637"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_34165","news_8","news_356"],"tags":["news_20023","news_23932","news_33812","news_34684"],"featImg":"news_12010728","label":"news_33523"},"news_12009656":{"type":"posts","id":"news_12009656","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"12009656","score":null,"sort":[1729159224000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"the-presidio-pet-cemetery-a-resting-place-for-furry-friends","title":"The Presidio Pet Cemetery: A Resting Place for Furry Friends","publishDate":1729159224,"format":"standard","headTitle":"The Presidio Pet Cemetery: A Resting Place for Furry Friends | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco has long been a tough place to be dead. For the past hundred years, burying the dead within San Francisco city limits has been banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One exception to this rule was the Presidio Pet Cemetery — a paradise where the pets of military families were laid to rest for 52 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009679\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009679\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A building and cemetery in the distance underneath an overpass.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Directly beneath the Presidio Parkway overpass, a small plot of land in the Presidio holds the remains of over 400 beloved pets. While the cemetery doesn’t have the tidy rows you might imagine, it’s still beautiful. It’s raw and overgrown, with big bushes of white and magenta flowers and charming wooden grave markers peeking out of the greenery. The cemetery is backdropped with a picturesque view of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003cbr>\n[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pet cemetery has been in this spot for over 70 years now, surviving eras of active use, neglect, and restoration. It has been closed to new burials since 1994, but some San Franciscans have continued to bury their pets there despite health concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The history of this sacred space\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The pet cemetery was established in 1952, in the Presidio’s post-WWII era. At the time, the Presidio was still an active military base and it was undergoing big changes. As the baby boom was happening around the country, more families began living on the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was a time when the Presidio really took on a character of a community that had families,” says Rob Thomson, a Federal Preservation Officer for the Presidio Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was during this era that Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Swing established the pet cemetery so the military families on base could lay their beloved pets to rest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, the cemetery was stewarded by Boy Scout Troop 70. Families could pay a fee of $1 and scouts would dig a grave and bury the pet. Many of the graves from this era can still be seen there today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009677\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12009677 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A tombstone statue of a dog next another statue of a dog.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dog memorial statues at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The grave markers often contain sweet anecdotes about the pet being memorialized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One headstone has a poem about Raspberry, the basset hound.\u003cbr>\n“It’s true, my basset has gone away.\u003cbr>\nI know we had to part, but she’ll be with me every day\u003cbr>\nwithin my loving heart.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reads, “Frodo was a good turtle.” Another simply says, “We know love, we had this little dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point, the Boy Scouts stopped tending to the grounds, and by the 1970s, after decades of use, the pet cemetery began to fall into disrepair. Phil Gioia remembers running past the cemetery in 1975 while he was stationed at the Presidio and says it was dilapidated and spooky. Many of the wooden gravestones had rotted and fallen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It seemed like the cemetery had become a forgotten piece of land under the freeway overpass, and it may slowly turn to dust — but then life sprang anew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 1976, a mysterious veteran was spotted caring for the space. He replaced rotting grave markers and tidied up the landscaping. He was mentioned in the Presidio’s newspaper, \u003cem>The Star Presidian,\u003c/em> but chose to remain anonymous. He told the newspaper that he wasn’t hoping to gain praise or notoriety but simply wanted to honor the memory of his own dog by caring for the cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years later, Phil Gioia went back to the Presidio to bury his own beloved cat, Fremont. The stocky tabby was a polite and gentle cat named after famous explorer and military officer, John C. Fremont. After living for 16 years, Fremont the cat was laid to rest in the Presidio Pet Cemetery on Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m sure he’s up there in cat heaven playing a harp with all the other cats, having a good time,” Gioia says.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From military base to national park, the pet cemetery lives on\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1994, the Presidio transitioned from a military base to a national park and as massive renovations changed the Presidio, the pet cemetery remained. Since then, the Presidio Trust has worked to maintain the cemetery by carefully protecting it during construction projects in the area and by bringing the community together to \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13875686/dedicated-neighbors-keep-a-pet-cemetery-and-presidio-history-alive&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1729110574209800&usg=AOvVaw0meKJ4SUr-cbn1QAo_j-LB\">restore the space\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009676\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009676\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Tombstones in a cemetery.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tombstones at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rob Thomson, from the Presidio Trust, says that the pet cemetery officially closed to new burials in 1994. However, if you look at the dates on many of the grave markers, it seems that, in practice, that might not be true. Many of the grave markers in the cemetery memorialize pets well into the 2000s. Some online Reddit posters even talk about clandestinely going to bury their pets there, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Thompson says this is very unsafe due to lead contamination in the cemetery’s dirt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prior to the construction of Presidio Parkway, the Doyle Drive overpass ran directly above the cemetery. Originally built in 1936, lead paint was used in its construction and contaminated the soil down below. Even after its demolition in 2012, digging in the pet cemetery can still pose health risks.\u003cbr>\n“It’s not in anybody’s interest to be digging around in the dirt out here,” says Thompson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He warns, “It’s just not a healthy place for people to be digging in the dirt. So, we really discourage people from putting new burials in here. That being said, this is your national park … come here to enjoy the Presidio, but stay above ground.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has long been a tough place to be dead. In 1900, burials within San Francisco city limits were banned. And then, about a decade later, most of the deceased who had been interred were unearthed and shipped down to Colma. This was a law of the land in San Francisco, with a few exceptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s story takes us to the Presidio to talk about a unique burial site — one that’s not for humans but for pets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dog bark]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question today comes from Willow. They are a Marin resident and parent to an adorable 8-pound schnoodle named Bluebell. Bluebell is a tiny, gray, fluffy-haired dog and a notorious fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dog growl]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Willow wanted to know…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker: \u003c/b>I was wondering what the story behind the pet cemetery is. I’ve always driven past it and wondered how it started, who takes care of it, and if you can still bury your pet here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re heading to the Presidio pet cemetery to explore this special plot of land where more than 400 pets are laid to rest. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR BREAK\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To help answer Willow’s question about the Presidio Pet Cemetery, we sent out KQED’s Bay Curious Intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: I ended up on the north side of the Presidio, on what feels like a backroad. It feels calm, except for the giant highway overpass directly above us — it’s the on-ramp to the Golden Gate Bridge. I’m here at the pet cemetery with Rob Thomson, a Federal Preservation Officer for the Presidio Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> So mostly dogs and cats are buried here, but you also see your occasional goldfish. There’s even an iguana. There are some birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: We step through a short, white picket fence into the cemetery that’s a little bit bigger than a tennis court — and as we are walking around, I realize it’s far more beautiful than I expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: I feel like if you drove by it, you might not even realize it’s a cemetery because it is full of, like, these pink and magenta and white flowers. It’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just beyond the cemetery, there’s a picture-perfect view of the Golden Gate Bridge. Rob and I start reading the grave markers. We come across a marker that says, “Woody, one great wiener dog.” Another says, “Frodo was a good turtle.” And one that simply says, “We know love. We had this little dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are four hundred and twenty documented burials here, but the cemetery doesn’t really have the clean rows you’d imagine, it’s overgrown with big bushes of flowers, and grave markers peek out. Most of them are made of wood and painted white, though some families have placed beautiful granite and stone grave markers. Walking through the cemetery, I start to get a sense of the love that is manifested in this place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/b> There’s this headstone that just says, “We loved you coco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The story of the Pet Cemetery starts long before it was even established.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> So right now, we’re in an area of the Presidio called Cavalry Bowl. It’s an area that has a long history, over 100 years of animal management for the Army right around us right now are four cavalry stables that used to house up to 100 horses and mules. Because really, for most of the 19th and about half of the 20th century, the Army literally ran on horsepower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>And this area is where those animals lived. You see, the Presidio of that time — the 1800s and early 1900s — was very different from the calm, picturesque national park it is today. It was an active military base filled with barracks, offices and soldiers in training. And notably, most of the men that were stationed here were single. That’s because, prior to the 20th century, many men in lower ranks of the military were not allowed to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> That really started to change after World War II, when the Army got bigger, but also started to bring more and more women and more and more families as the demographics of not just the Army but the country as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Post WWII, the baby boom happened all over the country and also within the Presidio. And in a matter of years, the Presidio was no longer just the home of single men but to wives and children too. And in response, it was changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson: \u003c/b>We have buildings like a school being built here. There’s a theater, the bowling alley that a lot of people know. Those were all, you know, created by the Army in order to serve the families that lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Once families started moving in, so did their pets. And so in 1952, Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Swing established the Presidio Pet Cemetery for service families to lay to rest their beloved pets. From the 1950s until the mid-’70s, families could pay a fee of $1 to Boy Scout Troop 70; the Boy Scouts would dig the grave and bury the pet. For the first 20 years of its existence, the pet cemetery was active and well taken care of by the Boy Scouts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I met with Phil Gioia, who lived this new, family era of the Presidio while he was stationed here in 1975. He served on the base and would later go on to host his wedding reception at the Presidio officer’s club. He remembers how unique it was to have the pet cemetery as an official part of the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> I mean, some posts have a kind of an informal place where they buried pets. I remember being at West Point; there was kind of an unofficial place, not at all official, but here at the Presidio, I think it was pretty much, you know, official.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>But at some point, the Boy Scouts stopped working on the cemetery. Many of the families who had buried their pets there moved — to different bases or otherwise. By the mid-’70s, the cemetery fell into disrepair, and it became a forgotten piece of land under the freeway overpass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> I used to run every day at lunchtime, and I’d pass the cemetery, which was in a pretty dilapidated state in those days. It was kind of overgrown. A lot of the little tombstones were skewed and everything kind of looked like a spooky little graveyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>It remained this way until a mysterious veteran was spotted repairing the cemetery. He is credited with replacing many of the rotting grave markers, caring for the landscaping, and bringing the space back from ruin. He’s mentioned in the Presidio’s newspaper in 1976, but he requested anonymity. He says that he wasn’t doing it for praise or recognition but to honor the memory of his own pup. Phil finished his military service in 1976 and left the base. But years later, he went back …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> We had a cat named Fremont who was named after John C. Fremont, he was an Army officer and he was called the Explorer. And our cat was always putting his nose in the things that he didn’t really belong. So we named it Fremont after John Fremont. And he was a great cat, he really was. We got him as a really tiny little kitten. He lasted 16 years, which is really old for a cat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>When Fremont passed, Phil called up a few of his buddies, and they went to bury him under a full moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia: \u003c/b>So we buried him on Halloween night and my friends knew the cat, they’d known him all the years or so. And then we went to the Presidio Officers Club and had dinner and quite a bit of a bottle of bourbon. I’m sure he’s. Up there in cat heaven playing a harp with all the other cats, you know, having a good time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>In the 90s, the Presidio transformed from a military base to a national park. The pet cemetery became part of this national park and, officially, it closed to new burials in 1994. But if you pay close attention to the dates on the gravestones, it seems like, realistically, that might not be the case. Some of the dates on grave markers show burials that occurred well into the 2000s. As one of the few places in the city where burials have been allowed in the past hundred years, it seems like San Franciscans have made good use of it. However, Rob, from the presidio trust, says that it’s really not safe to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson: \u003c/b>I should mention that today, burials are not allowed any longer, mainly because it’s largely full, but also because the soil out here is contaminated with lead paint from the old Doyle Drive structure that was overhead. So it’s not in anybody’s interest to be digging around in the dirt out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>After learning all of this about the pet cemetery, I wanted to bring our question-asker, Willow, here. So we stopped at the cemetery to look around together and read some of the grave markers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Raspberry’s says “It’s true. My basset has gone away. I know we had to part, but she’ll be with me every day with In my loving Heart from Ken.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Having a space dedicated to pets is really special. You know, they give us so much love, and we create spaces to kind of honor them. And have them live on in some way, I think… It’s nice. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>So, um, you can share as much or as little as you want, but a lot has kind of changed for you since you submitted that question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Unfortunately, we did have to put our family dog to sleep, BlueBell. She was 14 and just got sick all of a sudden. She was a terrible dog. She was really awful. But we loved her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker: \u003c/b>She thought she was a big dog. She got into so many fights. She fought a raccoon and a deer and big dogs, and I hope that she’s terrorizing raccoons somewhere else now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[laugh]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Being there with Willow, I was reminded of just how painful it is to lose a furry friend who you love so much. It had been years since I remembered what that felt like — to have such a special love that crosses the boundaries of species. The pet cemetery has survived for over 70 years, through many states and transitions, brought back to life by community members, an anonymous veteran, and San Franciscans who clandestinely lay their pets to rest here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A lot of people care about this little plot under the bridge, and I think it’s because this place exposes a really tender part of us. It reminds us just how much our pets mean to us and the lengths that we will go to love them, even after they are gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. We want to dedicate this episode to Bluebell and her beloved fighting spirit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Willow Baker for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! And while you’re there, be sure to sign up for the Bay Curious newsletter. It comes out once a month — so we’re not going to blow up your inbox — and features fascinating stories about our region. Again, that’s all at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This Saturday, Oct. 19th, 2024, is KQED Fest! That’s right, KQED’s free block party with live musical performances, food, art, culture and more is back by popular demand. Bay Curious will take to the stage at noon for a deep dive into a few of the propositions on your ballot this year, so swing by and say hello! Find details and register for free at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/events\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Christopher Beal, Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Kaitie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernen and the whole KQED family. \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cbr>\nI’m Olivia Allen-Price, and I hope you have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"A look into the history of the Presidio Pet Cemetery — a paradise where the pets of military families were laid to rest for 52 years. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1729227416,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":72,"wordCount":3233},"headData":{"title":"The Presidio Pet Cemetery: A Resting Place for Furry Friends | KQED","description":"A look into the history of the Presidio Pet Cemetery — a paradise where the pets of military families were laid to rest for 52 years. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"The Presidio Pet Cemetery: A Resting Place for Furry Friends","datePublished":"2024-10-17T03:00:24-07:00","dateModified":"2024-10-17T21:56:56-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC6107635421.mp3?updated=1729138641","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-12009656","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/12009656/the-presidio-pet-cemetery-a-resting-place-for-furry-friends","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco has long been a tough place to be dead. For the past hundred years, burying the dead within San Francisco city limits has been banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One exception to this rule was the Presidio Pet Cemetery — a paradise where the pets of military families were laid to rest for 52 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009679\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009679\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A building and cemetery in the distance underneath an overpass.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-06-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Directly beneath the Presidio Parkway overpass, a small plot of land in the Presidio holds the remains of over 400 beloved pets. While the cemetery doesn’t have the tidy rows you might imagine, it’s still beautiful. It’s raw and overgrown, with big bushes of white and magenta flowers and charming wooden grave markers peeking out of the greenery. The cemetery is backdropped with a picturesque view of the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The pet cemetery has been in this spot for over 70 years now, surviving eras of active use, neglect, and restoration. It has been closed to new burials since 1994, but some San Franciscans have continued to bury their pets there despite health concerns.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The history of this sacred space\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The pet cemetery was established in 1952, in the Presidio’s post-WWII era. At the time, the Presidio was still an active military base and it was undergoing big changes. As the baby boom was happening around the country, more families began living on the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was a time when the Presidio really took on a character of a community that had families,” says Rob Thomson, a Federal Preservation Officer for the Presidio Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was during this era that Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Swing established the pet cemetery so the military families on base could lay their beloved pets to rest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, the cemetery was stewarded by Boy Scout Troop 70. Families could pay a fee of $1 and scouts would dig a grave and bury the pet. Many of the graves from this era can still be seen there today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009677\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12009677 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A tombstone statue of a dog next another statue of a dog.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-04-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Dog memorial statues at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The grave markers often contain sweet anecdotes about the pet being memorialized.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One headstone has a poem about Raspberry, the basset hound.\u003cbr>\n“It’s true, my basset has gone away.\u003cbr>\nI know we had to part, but she’ll be with me every day\u003cbr>\nwithin my loving heart.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another reads, “Frodo was a good turtle.” Another simply says, “We know love, we had this little dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point, the Boy Scouts stopped tending to the grounds, and by the 1970s, after decades of use, the pet cemetery began to fall into disrepair. Phil Gioia remembers running past the cemetery in 1975 while he was stationed at the Presidio and says it was dilapidated and spooky. Many of the wooden gravestones had rotted and fallen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It seemed like the cemetery had become a forgotten piece of land under the freeway overpass, and it may slowly turn to dust — but then life sprang anew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Around 1976, a mysterious veteran was spotted caring for the space. He replaced rotting grave markers and tidied up the landscaping. He was mentioned in the Presidio’s newspaper, \u003cem>The Star Presidian,\u003c/em> but chose to remain anonymous. He told the newspaper that he wasn’t hoping to gain praise or notoriety but simply wanted to honor the memory of his own dog by caring for the cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years later, Phil Gioia went back to the Presidio to bury his own beloved cat, Fremont. The stocky tabby was a polite and gentle cat named after famous explorer and military officer, John C. Fremont. After living for 16 years, Fremont the cat was laid to rest in the Presidio Pet Cemetery on Halloween.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m sure he’s up there in cat heaven playing a harp with all the other cats, having a good time,” Gioia says.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From military base to national park, the pet cemetery lives on\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1994, the Presidio transitioned from a military base to a national park and as massive renovations changed the Presidio, the pet cemetery remained. Since then, the Presidio Trust has worked to maintain the cemetery by carefully protecting it during construction projects in the area and by bringing the community together to \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.kqed.org/arts/13875686/dedicated-neighbors-keep-a-pet-cemetery-and-presidio-history-alive&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1729110574209800&usg=AOvVaw0meKJ4SUr-cbn1QAo_j-LB\">restore the space\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12009676\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12009676\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Tombstones in a cemetery.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/241016-PRESIDIO-PET-CEMETERY-MD-03-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tombstones at the Presidio of San Francisco Pet Cemetery in San Francisco on Oct. 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rob Thomson, from the Presidio Trust, says that the pet cemetery officially closed to new burials in 1994. However, if you look at the dates on many of the grave markers, it seems that, in practice, that might not be true. Many of the grave markers in the cemetery memorialize pets well into the 2000s. Some online Reddit posters even talk about clandestinely going to bury their pets there, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, Thompson says this is very unsafe due to lead contamination in the cemetery’s dirt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Prior to the construction of Presidio Parkway, the Doyle Drive overpass ran directly above the cemetery. Originally built in 1936, lead paint was used in its construction and contaminated the soil down below. Even after its demolition in 2012, digging in the pet cemetery can still pose health risks.\u003cbr>\n“It’s not in anybody’s interest to be digging around in the dirt out here,” says Thompson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He warns, “It’s just not a healthy place for people to be digging in the dirt. So, we really discourage people from putting new burials in here. That being said, this is your national park … come here to enjoy the Presidio, but stay above ground.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> San Francisco has long been a tough place to be dead. In 1900, burials within San Francisco city limits were banned. And then, about a decade later, most of the deceased who had been interred were unearthed and shipped down to Colma. This was a law of the land in San Francisco, with a few exceptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s story takes us to the Presidio to talk about a unique burial site — one that’s not for humans but for pets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dog bark]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question today comes from Willow. They are a Marin resident and parent to an adorable 8-pound schnoodle named Bluebell. Bluebell is a tiny, gray, fluffy-haired dog and a notorious fighter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dog growl]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Willow wanted to know…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker: \u003c/b>I was wondering what the story behind the pet cemetery is. I’ve always driven past it and wondered how it started, who takes care of it, and if you can still bury your pet here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re heading to the Presidio pet cemetery to explore this special plot of land where more than 400 pets are laid to rest. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR BREAK\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To help answer Willow’s question about the Presidio Pet Cemetery, we sent out KQED’s Bay Curious Intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: I ended up on the north side of the Presidio, on what feels like a backroad. It feels calm, except for the giant highway overpass directly above us — it’s the on-ramp to the Golden Gate Bridge. I’m here at the pet cemetery with Rob Thomson, a Federal Preservation Officer for the Presidio Trust.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> So mostly dogs and cats are buried here, but you also see your occasional goldfish. There’s even an iguana. There are some birds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: We step through a short, white picket fence into the cemetery that’s a little bit bigger than a tennis court — and as we are walking around, I realize it’s far more beautiful than I expected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral\u003c/b>: I feel like if you drove by it, you might not even realize it’s a cemetery because it is full of, like, these pink and magenta and white flowers. It’s beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just beyond the cemetery, there’s a picture-perfect view of the Golden Gate Bridge. Rob and I start reading the grave markers. We come across a marker that says, “Woody, one great wiener dog.” Another says, “Frodo was a good turtle.” And one that simply says, “We know love. We had this little dog.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are four hundred and twenty documented burials here, but the cemetery doesn’t really have the clean rows you’d imagine, it’s overgrown with big bushes of flowers, and grave markers peek out. Most of them are made of wood and painted white, though some families have placed beautiful granite and stone grave markers. Walking through the cemetery, I start to get a sense of the love that is manifested in this place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/b> There’s this headstone that just says, “We loved you coco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The story of the Pet Cemetery starts long before it was even established.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> So right now, we’re in an area of the Presidio called Cavalry Bowl. It’s an area that has a long history, over 100 years of animal management for the Army right around us right now are four cavalry stables that used to house up to 100 horses and mules. Because really, for most of the 19th and about half of the 20th century, the Army literally ran on horsepower.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>And this area is where those animals lived. You see, the Presidio of that time — the 1800s and early 1900s — was very different from the calm, picturesque national park it is today. It was an active military base filled with barracks, offices and soldiers in training. And notably, most of the men that were stationed here were single. That’s because, prior to the 20th century, many men in lower ranks of the military were not allowed to marry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson:\u003c/b> That really started to change after World War II, when the Army got bigger, but also started to bring more and more women and more and more families as the demographics of not just the Army but the country as a whole.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Post WWII, the baby boom happened all over the country and also within the Presidio. And in a matter of years, the Presidio was no longer just the home of single men but to wives and children too. And in response, it was changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson: \u003c/b>We have buildings like a school being built here. There’s a theater, the bowling alley that a lot of people know. Those were all, you know, created by the Army in order to serve the families that lived here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Once families started moving in, so did their pets. And so in 1952, Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Swing established the Presidio Pet Cemetery for service families to lay to rest their beloved pets. From the 1950s until the mid-’70s, families could pay a fee of $1 to Boy Scout Troop 70; the Boy Scouts would dig the grave and bury the pet. For the first 20 years of its existence, the pet cemetery was active and well taken care of by the Boy Scouts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I met with Phil Gioia, who lived this new, family era of the Presidio while he was stationed here in 1975. He served on the base and would later go on to host his wedding reception at the Presidio officer’s club. He remembers how unique it was to have the pet cemetery as an official part of the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> I mean, some posts have a kind of an informal place where they buried pets. I remember being at West Point; there was kind of an unofficial place, not at all official, but here at the Presidio, I think it was pretty much, you know, official.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>But at some point, the Boy Scouts stopped working on the cemetery. Many of the families who had buried their pets there moved — to different bases or otherwise. By the mid-’70s, the cemetery fell into disrepair, and it became a forgotten piece of land under the freeway overpass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> I used to run every day at lunchtime, and I’d pass the cemetery, which was in a pretty dilapidated state in those days. It was kind of overgrown. A lot of the little tombstones were skewed and everything kind of looked like a spooky little graveyard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>It remained this way until a mysterious veteran was spotted repairing the cemetery. He is credited with replacing many of the rotting grave markers, caring for the landscaping, and bringing the space back from ruin. He’s mentioned in the Presidio’s newspaper in 1976, but he requested anonymity. He says that he wasn’t doing it for praise or recognition but to honor the memory of his own pup. Phil finished his military service in 1976 and left the base. But years later, he went back …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia:\u003c/b> We had a cat named Fremont who was named after John C. Fremont, he was an Army officer and he was called the Explorer. And our cat was always putting his nose in the things that he didn’t really belong. So we named it Fremont after John Fremont. And he was a great cat, he really was. We got him as a really tiny little kitten. He lasted 16 years, which is really old for a cat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>When Fremont passed, Phil called up a few of his buddies, and they went to bury him under a full moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Gioia: \u003c/b>So we buried him on Halloween night and my friends knew the cat, they’d known him all the years or so. And then we went to the Presidio Officers Club and had dinner and quite a bit of a bottle of bourbon. I’m sure he’s. Up there in cat heaven playing a harp with all the other cats, you know, having a good time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>In the 90s, the Presidio transformed from a military base to a national park. The pet cemetery became part of this national park and, officially, it closed to new burials in 1994. But if you pay close attention to the dates on the gravestones, it seems like, realistically, that might not be the case. Some of the dates on grave markers show burials that occurred well into the 2000s. As one of the few places in the city where burials have been allowed in the past hundred years, it seems like San Franciscans have made good use of it. However, Rob, from the presidio trust, says that it’s really not safe to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rob Thomson: \u003c/b>I should mention that today, burials are not allowed any longer, mainly because it’s largely full, but also because the soil out here is contaminated with lead paint from the old Doyle Drive structure that was overhead. So it’s not in anybody’s interest to be digging around in the dirt out here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>After learning all of this about the pet cemetery, I wanted to bring our question-asker, Willow, here. So we stopped at the cemetery to look around together and read some of the grave markers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Raspberry’s says “It’s true. My basset has gone away. I know we had to part, but she’ll be with me every day with In my loving Heart from Ken.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Having a space dedicated to pets is really special. You know, they give us so much love, and we create spaces to kind of honor them. And have them live on in some way, I think… It’s nice. I don’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>So, um, you can share as much or as little as you want, but a lot has kind of changed for you since you submitted that question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker:\u003c/b> Unfortunately, we did have to put our family dog to sleep, BlueBell. She was 14 and just got sick all of a sudden. She was a terrible dog. She was really awful. But we loved her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Willow Baker: \u003c/b>She thought she was a big dog. She got into so many fights. She fought a raccoon and a deer and big dogs, and I hope that she’s terrorizing raccoons somewhere else now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[laugh]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>Being there with Willow, I was reminded of just how painful it is to lose a furry friend who you love so much. It had been years since I remembered what that felt like — to have such a special love that crosses the boundaries of species. The pet cemetery has survived for over 70 years, through many states and transitions, brought back to life by community members, an anonymous veteran, and San Franciscans who clandestinely lay their pets to rest here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A lot of people care about this little plot under the bridge, and I think it’s because this place exposes a really tender part of us. It reminds us just how much our pets mean to us and the lengths that we will go to love them, even after they are gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. We want to dedicate this episode to Bluebell and her beloved fighting spirit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Willow Baker for asking this week’s question. If you’ve got a question you’d like to hear answered on Bay Curious, head to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and ask! And while you’re there, be sure to sign up for the Bay Curious newsletter. It comes out once a month — so we’re not going to blow up your inbox — and features fascinating stories about our region. Again, that’s all at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This Saturday, Oct. 19th, 2024, is KQED Fest! That’s right, KQED’s free block party with live musical performances, food, art, culture and more is back by popular demand. Bay Curious will take to the stage at noon for a deep dive into a few of the propositions on your ballot this year, so swing by and say hello! Find details and register for free at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/events\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Christopher Beal, Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Kaitie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernen and the whole KQED family. \u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cbr>\nI’m Olivia Allen-Price, and I hope you have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/12009656/the-presidio-pet-cemetery-a-resting-place-for-furry-friends","authors":["102"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_80","news_6244","news_5663"],"featImg":"news_12009678","label":"news_33523"},"news_11700225":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11700225","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11700225","score":null,"sort":[1728554402000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"the-ghost-of-a-legend-how-a-san-francisco-civil-rights-icon-was-made-a-monster","title":"Ghost of a Legend: How a San Francisco Civil Rights Icon Was Made a Monster","publishDate":1728554402,"format":"image","headTitle":"Ghost of a Legend: How a San Francisco Civil Rights Icon Was Made a Monster | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published online and aired on “Bay Curious” on Oct 25, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What are the most haunted places in San Francisco?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the question that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener Kelsey Poole asked us a few weeks ago. Which is how I found myself standing with her on the steep streets of San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood as the sun went down — on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11699617\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11699617\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1271\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-520x344.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Christian Cagigal leading the San Francisco Ghost Hunt through Pacific Heights \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A Tennessee transplant to the Bay Area, Poole is actually already a fan of going on ghost tours when she travels, as a way to learn the history of a city she’s visiting — plus “you get some spooky stories that keep you up at night,” she says. But she’d never done one in San Francisco. \u003cem>(Want to go on a ghost hunt with the Bay Curious team on Nov. 1? \u003ca href=\"https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bay-curious-sf-ghost-hunt-tour-and-meetup-tickets-51352552868\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Details and tickets here\u003c/a>!)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ghost Hunt tour is led by performer Christian Cagigal, who leads us through these streets in full 19th century dress, top hat and clacking cane. From tales of ghostly apparitions to aristocrats meeting grisly ends, every corner brings another ghoulish story from San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700249\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700249\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-800x584.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1020x744.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1200x876.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1180x861.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-960x701.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-240x175.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-375x274.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-520x379.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Kelsey Poole \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There’s one stop on this tour we discovered, however, that tells a real-life story bigger than any Halloween legend: at the corner of Octavia and Bush streets, the place known as Mary Ellen Pleasant Memorial Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ghost of Mary Ellen Pleasant — a 19th century entrepreneur who once lived in a now-vanished mansion nearby, and actually planted the eucalyptus trees above our heads — is said to still haunt this unlit corner. Her spirit is said to summon chills, frighten dogs and even throw eucalyptus nuts at passers-by. (For the record, we escaped unscathed that night.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700253\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700253 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/10062018_AW_GhostStory_100-e1540151423725.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1343\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Christian Cagigal holds up a photograph of 19th century San Francisco on his Ghost Hunt tour, at Mary Ellen Memorial Park \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pleasant, Cagigal tells us, was born into slavery in the South and came to San Francisco in the mid-1800s — defying white society’s constraints to not only amass great wealth, but to use her power to advance the cause of civil rights in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700602\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 291px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700602 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"291\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997.jpg 291w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997-160x220.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997-240x330.jpg 240w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 291px) 100vw, 291px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of Mary Ellen Pleasant, age 87. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Public Library History Center)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Yet she was \u003cem>also\u003c/em> described as a witch, a “voodoo queen” and even a murderer. What’s real here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Her life is so enshrouded in mystery because she was her own spin doctor,” says Sacramento writer and performer Susheel Bibbs, who has studied Pleasant’s story for decades. Pleasant wrote three autobiographies — but each one contradicts the other on basic facts, such as the year of her birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We do know that she was born in Georgia, and was raised in Nantucket, Massachusetts, “in indenture,” says Bibbs. There on the East Coast, the young Pleasant became a crucial figure in the civil rights fight, secretly teaming up with abolitionists and rescuing escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her double life actually including presenting as a white woman when she could.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very used to being covert,” Bibbs says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The death of her first husband left her rich, and she arrived in San Francisco in 1852 — still passing as white. She invested this sizable fortune in property by establishing boardinghouses and laundries: services that a town full of prospectors relied on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700259\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700259\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sacramento writer and performer Susheel Bibbs \u003ccite>(Carly Severn / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In these spaces, she learned the private secrets of powerful men, and used them as another kind of currency, to rise in society. While wealthy white people of San Francisco knew her as the white boardinghouse proprietress, the city’s growing black community knew her \u003cem>real\u003c/em> identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To them, she was known as “The Black City Hall,” who brought the Underground Railroad to the West and helped black people find employment. And almost a century before Rosa Parks, Pleasant challenged San Francisco’s segregated transit system in court, winning black people the right to ride the streetcars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My cause,” Pleasant wrote in one of her memoirs, “was the cause of freedom and equality for myself and for my people. And I’d rather be a corpse than a coward.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700604\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1007px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1007\" height=\"565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3.png 1007w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-800x449.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-960x539.png 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-240x135.png 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-375x210.png 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-520x292.png 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1007px) 100vw, 1007px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mary Ellen Pleasant pictured in the San Francisco Chronicle in 1899 \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Chronicle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Civil War, over a decade after she arrived in the city, Pleasant finally checked the box that said “Black” on the census of 1865. While this undoubtedly caused a stir, Pleasant continued to move in wealthy white circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the 1880s, the wild, mud-caked San Francisco that Mary Ellen Pleasant the capitalist had carved her way into had itself transformed into a “very much more overtly racist” city, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the nation, emancipated slaves became a convenient scapegoat for the economy’s woes — and as a wealthy, older black woman, Pleasant now inspired suspicion, even fear. The press coined a racist nickname: “Mammy Pleasant.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whispers grew that she had some otherworldly hold over the wealthy white people she was close to — especially when Pleasant became entangled in the scandalous 1883 trial of Nevada Sen. William Sharon, accused of seducing and then abandoning a young woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like the O.J. Simpson trial” in notoriety, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700255\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700255 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/10062018_AW_GhostStory_102-e1540151451936.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The crowd listens to Christian Cagigal telling the story of Mary Ellen Pleasant on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt tour \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Lawyers for Sharon claimed that Pleasant, as the young woman’s friend, had used dark forces to manipulate her into entrapping the senator. And rather than rejecting the rumors, she defied them — encouraged them. She carried a voodoo doll in court, claiming she would use it to bring about his death. Wild thing is, he soon \u003cem>did\u003c/em> die during the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pleasant’s status as a “voodoo queen” grew, cementing her reputation as a quasi-mystical figure in San Francisco. To the public, voodoo meant blood magic and malevolent intent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Mary Ellen Pleasant, however, the real voodoo — vodoun, or vodun — was actually her religion from her ancestral homeland of Haiti, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scandal followed scandal. When her business partner, a Scotsman named Thomas Bell, was found dead in Pleasant’s mansion in 1899, his widow collaborated on a full-page smear piece in the San Francisco Chronicle with the headline “The Queen of the Voodoos.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700490\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1359px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700490\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1359\" height=\"867\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2.png 1359w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-160x102.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-800x510.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1020x651.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1200x766.png 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1180x753.png 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-960x612.png 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-240x153.png 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-375x239.png 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-520x332.png 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1359px) 100vw, 1359px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The “Queen of the Voodoos” article about Mary Ellen Pleasant in the San Francisco Chronicle \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Chronicle )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The press had used the language of the supernatural to describe her for years — but now, they made her into a flat-out monster, accusing her of witchcraft and heavily implying she murdered Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s telling who gets a legend — and who gets a ghost story. Mary Ellen Pleasant was demonized in her own lifetime. Yet in a system so loaded against a black woman in the public eye, playing with rumor, as she did, was perhaps the only way to play the game — even if it was ultimately her undoing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She died in 1904, in her 90s, and her obituary in the San Francisco Examiner was titled: “Mammy Pleasant Will Work Weird Spells No More.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How we’re remembered depends on who’s telling your story. And with such varying accounts, “one could not tell \u003cem>who\u003c/em> she was,” says Bibbs. “Was she the … mother of civil rights, or was she a murderess?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700257\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700257\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-800x546.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1020x696.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1200x819.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1180x806.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-960x656.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-240x164.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-375x256.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-520x355.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Ghost Hunt concludes in Room 407 — rumored to be haunted — of the Hotel Majestic in Pacific Heights \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Or as Christian Cagigal put it in closing on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt, under those eucalyptus trees she’s said to haunt: “When there’s three versions of your life story. We don’t know what to do with your life story…. And we \u003cem>forget\u003c/em> your story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He keeps Mary Ellen Pleasant on his ghost hunt, he says, “so we might start to remember.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The nights are getting longer. Pumpkins are popping up on doorsteps all over town. And soon ghoulish trick or treaters may be knocking at your door. Today on Bay Curious, we’ve got a treat for you to kick off spooky season, all inspired by this question from a listener.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Kelsey Poole and my question is, what are the most haunted places in San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We sent Kelsey on a San Francisco Ghost Hunt tour to learn the haunted side of the city’s history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a cool way to see the city and you get some spooky stories that keep you up at night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But what we didn’t expect to find on the tour was the real life story that would shake us the most. Something not found in many San Francisco history books. Something more significant than any Halloween legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, this is Bay Curious. Today we’re bringing back a story we first aired in 2018 about a crusading heroine who somehow became a demon in her own lifetime. That’s all just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious reporter Carly Seven went along with Kelsey on the ghost tour and brings us the tale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright ghost hunters. Gather ‘round, gather ‘round.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The San Francisco Ghost Hunt starts at dusk in the city’s Pacific Heights neighborhood in the shadow of those looming Victorians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hello and welcome to the San Francisco Ghost Hunt walking tour. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Actor Christian Cagigal leads us around the steep streets in full 19th century dress – top hat and clacking cane. Every corner brings another ghoulish story from San Francisco history, from ghostly apparitions to an aristocrat who disappeared under grisly circumstances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Windows and doors were said to slam shut throughout the entire house, as inside, they discovered the pickled body of George Atherton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But on one particularly dark street corner, our guide Christian places his flickering lantern down on the sidewalk to illuminate a large circular plaque under our feet, dedicated to a woman who lived and died here over a century ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was said to be worth $30 million. For anybody, anytime, that is an accomplishment. For a woman in the Victorian time, quite an accomplishment. For an African-American woman, for that time, almost unheard of. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This, my friends, is Miss Mary Ellen Pleasant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The excitable crowd on this tour has come to be scared. But sometimes Christian says they get more than they bargained for. Mary’s ghost is said to summon chills, frighten dogs, even throw nuts from the nearby eucalyptus trees at people like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not on your head. From behind … on your back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After the crowds disperse into the night, I wondered: why would the soul still be so restless? I wanted to learn more about the flesh and blood Mary. And there’s one person who knows her better than most, Sacramento writer Susheel Bibbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her life is so enshrouded in mystery because she was her own spin doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mary wrote three autobiographies, but each one contradicts the other. Here’s what we do know about her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was born a slave in Georgia. She was raised in Nantucket in indenture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There on the East Coast, years before she came to San Francisco, Mary was a crucial figure in the civil rights fight, secretly teaming up with abolitionists and rescuing escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad. In this world, nothing could ever be as it seemed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was very used to being covert, and she often said that words were made to conceal feelings and that she was good at it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that double life included presenting as a white woman when she could. Early on, she married well, and rich. And when she was widowed, she inherited all that money.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$45,000 in gold from her husband’s estate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she made the journey by steamer to San Francisco in 1852, still passing as white. She found a town filled with men come to make their gold rush fortunes. They were far from home and needed somewhere to live. So Mary buys up boarding houses and laundries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All kinds of things that she thinks will be a niche in San Francisco to make more money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thing is, Mary also did the cooking and the cleaning for these men. Why? Because you can hear secrets that way. She had the dirty laundry of influential men, literally, and she was using it as leverage to further her real cause, bringing the Underground Railroad out west. You see, only San Francisco’s growing Black community knew her as a Black woman. They called her the Black City Hall, the place where you go to get what you need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She helped African Americans get jobs on steamers and in homes and in her own businesses.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not only that, almost a century before Rosa Parks, Mary Ellen Pleasant challenged the city’s segregated transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She won in and out of court, and in 1868, African Americans could ride the trolleys in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After the Civil War. Over a decade after she arrived in the city, Mary finally checked the box that said Black on the census of 1865. Susheel, who also performs as Mary on stage, reads from her memoirs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My cause was the cause of freedom and equality for myself and for my people, and I’d rather be a corpse than a coward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But by the 1880s, the wild mud-caked San Francisco that Mary Ellen Pleasant, the capitalist, had carved her way into, had itself transformed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very much more overtly racist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Across the nation, emancipated slaves became a convenient scapegoat for the economy’s woes. And as a wealthy, older Black woman, Mary now inspired suspicion, even fear. And that is how a heroine becomes a villain. Now, the press coined a racist nickname, Mammy Pleasant. And in 1883, she became entangled in the scandalous trial of a Nevada senator accused of seducing, then abandoning a young woman. That woman was Mary’s friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a trial like the O.J. Simpson trial of the 20th century and went all the way to New York and it was reported everywhere, every day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though she wasn’t on trial, Mary was painted as a sinister crone with an otherworldly hold over the white people she was close to. But rather than rejecting the rumors, she defied them, encouraged them even, during the senator’s trial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At one point, she planted a voodoo doll and said that, you know, he would die. He did die during, over the course of the trials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To Mary Ellen Pleasant, voodoo wasn’t just some scare tactic. It was, vodoun, or vodun, a belief system from her ancestral homeland of Haiti.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was Pleasant’s religion from the time she was a child. She was born the daughter of a voodoo priestess and the granddaughter of a voodoo priest from Haiti.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scandal followed scandal. When her wealthy white business partner was found dead in her mansion, his widow collaborated on a full page smear piece in the San Francisco Chronicle. The headline…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (reading from newspaper): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Queen of the Voodoos\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The press had used the language of the supernatural to describe her for years, and now they made her into a flat out monster. And the public turned on her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They exploited those rumors and called her a blackmailer. They called her a baby stealer. So I would say that it was hate, revenge and racism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pleasant died in 1904, in her 90s. After such a life, so many achievements, this was the obituary she received in the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (reading from a newspaper): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mammy Pleasant will work weird spells no more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s telling who gets a legend and who gets a ghost story. How we are remembered depends on who’s telling your story. Or as our tour guide, Christian put it ,under those haunted eucalyptus trees in San Francisco …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But when there’s three versions of your life story, we don’t know what to do with your life story. We stop telling your life story and we forget your story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He keeps Mary Ellen Pleasant on his ghost hunt, he says so that she’s not forgotten. But given Mary’s own penchant for mystery and a good story, then maybe you could choose a worse time to get to know Mary Ellen Pleasant than Halloween.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before we go, let’s check back in with Kelsey, our question asker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you think about the story of Mary Ellen Pleasant?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was really cool history I didn’t know before. But I hope she doesn’t throw a gumball at me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Carly Seven. Thanks for bringing us this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mark your calendars for a super fun event we have coming up. It’s a free and festive block party and open house at KQED headquarters in San Francisco’s Mission District. It’s called KQED Fest, and it’s a daylong celebration of local food, music, culture and your favorite KQED, PBS and NPR programs. Bay Curious will be live on stage talking about the statewide propositions that we recently covered in our Prop Fest series. So be sure to swing by and say hello. I’ll be there. It all goes down on October 19th. Find details and register for free at kqed.org/live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Victoria Mauleon, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Ellen Price, and I hope to see you at KQED Fest. Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"One of San Francisco's purported 'ghosts' has a remarkable real-life story often left out of San Francisco's history books. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1728518035,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":93,"wordCount":3242},"headData":{"title":"Ghost of a Legend: How a San Francisco Civil Rights Icon Was Made a Monster | KQED","description":"One of San Francisco's purported 'ghosts' has a remarkable real-life story often left out of San Francisco's history books. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Ghost of a Legend: How a San Francisco Civil Rights Icon Was Made a Monster","datePublished":"2024-10-10T03:00:02-07:00","dateModified":"2024-10-09T16:53:55-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC4958860274.mp3?updated=1728503701","sticky":false,"audioTrackLength":656,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11700225/the-ghost-of-a-legend-how-a-san-francisco-civil-rights-icon-was-made-a-monster","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published online and aired on “Bay Curious” on Oct 25, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What are the most haunted places in San Francisco?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the question that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener Kelsey Poole asked us a few weeks ago. Which is how I found myself standing with her on the steep streets of San Francisco’s Pacific Heights neighborhood as the sun went down — on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11699617\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11699617\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1271\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-800x530.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-960x636.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33251_composite_2-qut-520x344.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Christian Cagigal leading the San Francisco Ghost Hunt through Pacific Heights \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A Tennessee transplant to the Bay Area, Poole is actually already a fan of going on ghost tours when she travels, as a way to learn the history of a city she’s visiting — plus “you get some spooky stories that keep you up at night,” she says. But she’d never done one in San Francisco. \u003cem>(Want to go on a ghost hunt with the Bay Curious team on Nov. 1? \u003ca href=\"https://www.eventbrite.com/e/bay-curious-sf-ghost-hunt-tour-and-meetup-tickets-51352552868\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Details and tickets here\u003c/a>!)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Ghost Hunt tour is led by performer Christian Cagigal, who leads us through these streets in full 19th century dress, top hat and clacking cane. From tales of ghostly apparitions to aristocrats meeting grisly ends, every corner brings another ghoulish story from San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700249\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700249\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1401\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-800x584.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1020x744.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1200x876.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-1180x861.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-960x701.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-240x175.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-375x274.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33238_10062018_AW_GhostStory_11-qut-520x379.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Kelsey Poole \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There’s one stop on this tour we discovered, however, that tells a real-life story bigger than any Halloween legend: at the corner of Octavia and Bush streets, the place known as Mary Ellen Pleasant Memorial Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The ghost of Mary Ellen Pleasant — a 19th century entrepreneur who once lived in a now-vanished mansion nearby, and actually planted the eucalyptus trees above our heads — is said to still haunt this unlit corner. Her spirit is said to summon chills, frighten dogs and even throw eucalyptus nuts at passers-by. (For the record, we escaped unscathed that night.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700253\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700253 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/10062018_AW_GhostStory_100-e1540151423725.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1343\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Christian Cagigal holds up a photograph of 19th century San Francisco on his Ghost Hunt tour, at Mary Ellen Memorial Park \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pleasant, Cagigal tells us, was born into slavery in the South and came to San Francisco in the mid-1800s — defying white society’s constraints to not only amass great wealth, but to use her power to advance the cause of civil rights in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700602\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 291px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700602 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"291\" height=\"400\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997.jpg 291w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997-160x220.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/AAD-2997-240x330.jpg 240w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 291px) 100vw, 291px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of Mary Ellen Pleasant, age 87. \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Public Library History Center)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Yet she was \u003cem>also\u003c/em> described as a witch, a “voodoo queen” and even a murderer. What’s real here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Her life is so enshrouded in mystery because she was her own spin doctor,” says Sacramento writer and performer Susheel Bibbs, who has studied Pleasant’s story for decades. Pleasant wrote three autobiographies — but each one contradicts the other on basic facts, such as the year of her birth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We do know that she was born in Georgia, and was raised in Nantucket, Massachusetts, “in indenture,” says Bibbs. There on the East Coast, the young Pleasant became a crucial figure in the civil rights fight, secretly teaming up with abolitionists and rescuing escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her double life actually including presenting as a white woman when she could.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very used to being covert,” Bibbs says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The death of her first husband left her rich, and she arrived in San Francisco in 1852 — still passing as white. She invested this sizable fortune in property by establishing boardinghouses and laundries: services that a town full of prospectors relied on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700259\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700259\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-1180x787.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-960x640.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-240x160.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-375x250.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33344_DSC_1169-qut-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sacramento writer and performer Susheel Bibbs \u003ccite>(Carly Severn / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In these spaces, she learned the private secrets of powerful men, and used them as another kind of currency, to rise in society. While wealthy white people of San Francisco knew her as the white boardinghouse proprietress, the city’s growing black community knew her \u003cem>real\u003c/em> identity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To them, she was known as “The Black City Hall,” who brought the Underground Railroad to the West and helped black people find employment. And almost a century before Rosa Parks, Pleasant challenged San Francisco’s segregated transit system in court, winning black people the right to ride the streetcars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My cause,” Pleasant wrote in one of her memoirs, “was the cause of freedom and equality for myself and for my people. And I’d rather be a corpse than a coward.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700604\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1007px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1007\" height=\"565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3.png 1007w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-160x90.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-800x449.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-960x539.png 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-240x135.png 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-375x210.png 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-3-520x292.png 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1007px) 100vw, 1007px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mary Ellen Pleasant pictured in the San Francisco Chronicle in 1899 \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Chronicle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Civil War, over a decade after she arrived in the city, Pleasant finally checked the box that said “Black” on the census of 1865. While this undoubtedly caused a stir, Pleasant continued to move in wealthy white circles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the 1880s, the wild, mud-caked San Francisco that Mary Ellen Pleasant the capitalist had carved her way into had itself transformed into a “very much more overtly racist” city, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the nation, emancipated slaves became a convenient scapegoat for the economy’s woes — and as a wealthy, older black woman, Pleasant now inspired suspicion, even fear. The press coined a racist nickname: “Mammy Pleasant.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whispers grew that she had some otherworldly hold over the wealthy white people she was close to — especially when Pleasant became entangled in the scandalous 1883 trial of Nevada Sen. William Sharon, accused of seducing and then abandoning a young woman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like the O.J. Simpson trial” in notoriety, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700255\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11700255 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/10062018_AW_GhostStory_102-e1540151451936.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The crowd listens to Christian Cagigal telling the story of Mary Ellen Pleasant on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt tour \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Lawyers for Sharon claimed that Pleasant, as the young woman’s friend, had used dark forces to manipulate her into entrapping the senator. And rather than rejecting the rumors, she defied them — encouraged them. She carried a voodoo doll in court, claiming she would use it to bring about his death. Wild thing is, he soon \u003cem>did\u003c/em> die during the trial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pleasant’s status as a “voodoo queen” grew, cementing her reputation as a quasi-mystical figure in San Francisco. To the public, voodoo meant blood magic and malevolent intent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Mary Ellen Pleasant, however, the real voodoo — vodoun, or vodun — was actually her religion from her ancestral homeland of Haiti, says Bibbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scandal followed scandal. When her business partner, a Scotsman named Thomas Bell, was found dead in Pleasant’s mansion in 1899, his widow collaborated on a full-page smear piece in the San Francisco Chronicle with the headline “The Queen of the Voodoos.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700490\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1359px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700490\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"1359\" height=\"867\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2.png 1359w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-160x102.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-800x510.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1020x651.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1200x766.png 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-1180x753.png 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-960x612.png 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-240x153.png 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-375x239.png 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/Chron-2-520x332.png 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1359px) 100vw, 1359px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The “Queen of the Voodoos” article about Mary Ellen Pleasant in the San Francisco Chronicle \u003ccite>(Courtesy San Francisco Chronicle )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The press had used the language of the supernatural to describe her for years — but now, they made her into a flat-out monster, accusing her of witchcraft and heavily implying she murdered Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s telling who gets a legend — and who gets a ghost story. Mary Ellen Pleasant was demonized in her own lifetime. Yet in a system so loaded against a black woman in the public eye, playing with rumor, as she did, was perhaps the only way to play the game — even if it was ultimately her undoing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She died in 1904, in her 90s, and her obituary in the San Francisco Examiner was titled: “Mammy Pleasant Will Work Weird Spells No More.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How we’re remembered depends on who’s telling your story. And with such varying accounts, “one could not tell \u003cem>who\u003c/em> she was,” says Bibbs. “Was she the … mother of civil rights, or was she a murderess?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11700257\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11700257\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1311\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-800x546.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1020x696.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1200x819.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-1180x806.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-960x656.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-240x164.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-375x256.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33243_10062018_AW_GhostStory_76-qut-520x355.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Ghost Hunt concludes in Room 407 — rumored to be haunted — of the Hotel Majestic in Pacific Heights \u003ccite>(Anne Wernikoff / KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Or as Christian Cagigal put it in closing on the San Francisco Ghost Hunt, under those eucalyptus trees she’s said to haunt: “When there’s three versions of your life story. We don’t know what to do with your life story…. And we \u003cem>forget\u003c/em> your story.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He keeps Mary Ellen Pleasant on his ghost hunt, he says, “so we might start to remember.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The nights are getting longer. Pumpkins are popping up on doorsteps all over town. And soon ghoulish trick or treaters may be knocking at your door. Today on Bay Curious, we’ve got a treat for you to kick off spooky season, all inspired by this question from a listener.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Kelsey Poole and my question is, what are the most haunted places in San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We sent Kelsey on a San Francisco Ghost Hunt tour to learn the haunted side of the city’s history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a cool way to see the city and you get some spooky stories that keep you up at night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But what we didn’t expect to find on the tour was the real life story that would shake us the most. Something not found in many San Francisco history books. Something more significant than any Halloween legend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, this is Bay Curious. Today we’re bringing back a story we first aired in 2018 about a crusading heroine who somehow became a demon in her own lifetime. That’s all just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious reporter Carly Seven went along with Kelsey on the ghost tour and brings us the tale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright ghost hunters. Gather ‘round, gather ‘round.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The San Francisco Ghost Hunt starts at dusk in the city’s Pacific Heights neighborhood in the shadow of those looming Victorians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hello and welcome to the San Francisco Ghost Hunt walking tour. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Actor Christian Cagigal leads us around the steep streets in full 19th century dress – top hat and clacking cane. Every corner brings another ghoulish story from San Francisco history, from ghostly apparitions to an aristocrat who disappeared under grisly circumstances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Windows and doors were said to slam shut throughout the entire house, as inside, they discovered the pickled body of George Atherton.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But on one particularly dark street corner, our guide Christian places his flickering lantern down on the sidewalk to illuminate a large circular plaque under our feet, dedicated to a woman who lived and died here over a century ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was said to be worth $30 million. For anybody, anytime, that is an accomplishment. For a woman in the Victorian time, quite an accomplishment. For an African-American woman, for that time, almost unheard of. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This, my friends, is Miss Mary Ellen Pleasant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The excitable crowd on this tour has come to be scared. But sometimes Christian says they get more than they bargained for. Mary’s ghost is said to summon chills, frighten dogs, even throw nuts from the nearby eucalyptus trees at people like us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not on your head. From behind … on your back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After the crowds disperse into the night, I wondered: why would the soul still be so restless? I wanted to learn more about the flesh and blood Mary. And there’s one person who knows her better than most, Sacramento writer Susheel Bibbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her life is so enshrouded in mystery because she was her own spin doctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mary wrote three autobiographies, but each one contradicts the other. Here’s what we do know about her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was born a slave in Georgia. She was raised in Nantucket in indenture.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There on the East Coast, years before she came to San Francisco, Mary was a crucial figure in the civil rights fight, secretly teaming up with abolitionists and rescuing escaped slaves on the Underground Railroad. In this world, nothing could ever be as it seemed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was very used to being covert, and she often said that words were made to conceal feelings and that she was good at it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that double life included presenting as a white woman when she could. Early on, she married well, and rich. And when she was widowed, she inherited all that money.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">$45,000 in gold from her husband’s estate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she made the journey by steamer to San Francisco in 1852, still passing as white. She found a town filled with men come to make their gold rush fortunes. They were far from home and needed somewhere to live. So Mary buys up boarding houses and laundries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All kinds of things that she thinks will be a niche in San Francisco to make more money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thing is, Mary also did the cooking and the cleaning for these men. Why? Because you can hear secrets that way. She had the dirty laundry of influential men, literally, and she was using it as leverage to further her real cause, bringing the Underground Railroad out west. You see, only San Francisco’s growing Black community knew her as a Black woman. They called her the Black City Hall, the place where you go to get what you need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She helped African Americans get jobs on steamers and in homes and in her own businesses.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not only that, almost a century before Rosa Parks, Mary Ellen Pleasant challenged the city’s segregated transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She won in and out of court, and in 1868, African Americans could ride the trolleys in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After the Civil War. Over a decade after she arrived in the city, Mary finally checked the box that said Black on the census of 1865. Susheel, who also performs as Mary on stage, reads from her memoirs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My cause was the cause of freedom and equality for myself and for my people, and I’d rather be a corpse than a coward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But by the 1880s, the wild mud-caked San Francisco that Mary Ellen Pleasant, the capitalist, had carved her way into, had itself transformed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very much more overtly racist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Across the nation, emancipated slaves became a convenient scapegoat for the economy’s woes. And as a wealthy, older Black woman, Mary now inspired suspicion, even fear. And that is how a heroine becomes a villain. Now, the press coined a racist nickname, Mammy Pleasant. And in 1883, she became entangled in the scandalous trial of a Nevada senator accused of seducing, then abandoning a young woman. That woman was Mary’s friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a trial like the O.J. Simpson trial of the 20th century and went all the way to New York and it was reported everywhere, every day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though she wasn’t on trial, Mary was painted as a sinister crone with an otherworldly hold over the white people she was close to. But rather than rejecting the rumors, she defied them, encouraged them even, during the senator’s trial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At one point, she planted a voodoo doll and said that, you know, he would die. He did die during, over the course of the trials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To Mary Ellen Pleasant, voodoo wasn’t just some scare tactic. It was, vodoun, or vodun, a belief system from her ancestral homeland of Haiti.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was Pleasant’s religion from the time she was a child. She was born the daughter of a voodoo priestess and the granddaughter of a voodoo priest from Haiti.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scandal followed scandal. When her wealthy white business partner was found dead in her mansion, his widow collaborated on a full page smear piece in the San Francisco Chronicle. The headline…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (reading from newspaper): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Queen of the Voodoos\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The press had used the language of the supernatural to describe her for years, and now they made her into a flat out monster. And the public turned on her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susheel Bibbs: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They exploited those rumors and called her a blackmailer. They called her a baby stealer. So I would say that it was hate, revenge and racism.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Pleasant died in 1904, in her 90s. After such a life, so many achievements, this was the obituary she received in the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Lancour (reading from a newspaper): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mammy Pleasant will work weird spells no more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s telling who gets a legend and who gets a ghost story. How we are remembered depends on who’s telling your story. Or as our tour guide, Christian put it ,under those haunted eucalyptus trees in San Francisco …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christian Cagigal: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But when there’s three versions of your life story, we don’t know what to do with your life story. We stop telling your life story and we forget your story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He keeps Mary Ellen Pleasant on his ghost hunt, he says so that she’s not forgotten. But given Mary’s own penchant for mystery and a good story, then maybe you could choose a worse time to get to know Mary Ellen Pleasant than Halloween.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before we go, let’s check back in with Kelsey, our question asker.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you think about the story of Mary Ellen Pleasant?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelsey Poole: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was really cool history I didn’t know before. But I hope she doesn’t throw a gumball at me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Carly Seven. Thanks for bringing us this story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mark your calendars for a super fun event we have coming up. It’s a free and festive block party and open house at KQED headquarters in San Francisco’s Mission District. It’s called KQED Fest, and it’s a daylong celebration of local food, music, culture and your favorite KQED, PBS and NPR programs. Bay Curious will be live on stage talking about the statewide propositions that we recently covered in our Prop Fest series. So be sure to swing by and say hello. I’ll be there. It all goes down on October 19th. Find details and register for free at kqed.org/live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Victoria Mauleon, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Ellen Price, and I hope to see you at KQED Fest. Thanks for listening!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11700225/the-ghost-of-a-legend-how-a-san-francisco-civil-rights-icon-was-made-a-monster","authors":["3243"],"programs":["news_33523","news_34552"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_24211","news_4750","news_18816","news_33812"],"featImg":"news_11700254","label":"source_news_11700225"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. 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The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.","airtime":"SAT 4pm-5pm","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/reveal","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal/id886009669","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/Reveal-p679597/","rss":"http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"}},"says-you":{"id":"says-you","title":"Says You!","info":"Public radio's game show of bluff and bluster, words and whimsy. 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