KQED’s health coverage spans daily news to deep-dive stories from the Bay Area and beyond. We cover policy, health trends and the issues that show up in your life and at your doctor appointments.
The Case for a Fetish Revolution
Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?
Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute
What Does Romantic Jealousy Do to Us?
Commercial Gas Kitchens Expose Workers to a ‘Soup of Pollution,’ High Heat
The Secret to Secure Attachment? Build a Village
East Bay Grief Counselors Strike to Protest Layoffs and ‘Protect the Soul of Hospice’
Why Is It So Hard to Believe We’re Worthy?
Want to Stay Together? Learn to Fight
Is It Love — or Limerence? Why Intense Chemistry Can Be Misleading
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Niki Davis-Fainbloom, author of the forthcoming book \"Fetish,\" is calling for a fetish revolution. She wants us to rethink what we call strange, or kinky, so we can normalize all types of desire. \n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom,\u003c/strong> sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Niki. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk?",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n"
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"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr. — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, STAT News",
"What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk — Sarah Todd, STAT News",
"Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains — Katie Berohn, ELLE",
"Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning — Savannah Sobrevilla, GQ ",
"Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained — Carly Mallenbaum, Axios",
"Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug — Sara Kitnick, LA Times",
"The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry — Kara Nesvig, Allure",
"The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, Skin Cancer Foundation"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Morgan Sung: What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Influencers Are Peddling Peptides, but Is Tanmaxxing Worth the Risk? | KQED",
"description": "Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Seems like everywhere you turn these days, influencers are gushing about their peptide use and how it’s done wonders for their appearance and health. One of the more popular ones, Melanotan II, also known as the “Barbie” peptide, is said to give you a tan without the harmful effects of sun exposure. But many of these substances aren’t approved by the FDA and are often sold through unregulated gray market sources. So, how safe is any of this stuff? And what does the peptide boom tell us about the risks people will take in the name of “looksmaxxing?” Morgan talks to skin cancer surgeon Dr. Sungat Grewal and board certified dermatologist Dr. Caren Campbell about the risks of taking peptides. Then Morgan and STAT News reporter Sarah Todd break down how American medical libertarianism and the MAHA movement led us to this very point in time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Guests:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.ucsfhealth.org/providers/sungat-grewal\">Dr. Sungat Grewal\u003c/a>, double board-certified dermatologist and Mohs surgeon\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.carencampbellmd.com/?srsltid=AU7gw4XTOrftqgnQy6ysplZ8IdAO4P-TLRwup140ITmchvEhXpO36qrR\">Dr. Caren Campbell\u003c/a>, board-certified dermatologist\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/staff/sarah-todd/\">Sarah Todd\u003c/a>, reporter for \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/24/fda-peptide-compounding-panel-backs-epitalon-rejects-emideltide/\">FDA advisory panel narrowly rejects compounding of one peptide, backs two others\u003c/a> — Lizzy Lawrence and Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/07/23/fda-panel-okays-peptides-compound-pharmacies-bpc-157-kpv/\">FDA panel backs compounded BPC-157, KPV peptides in win for RFK Jr.\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd and Lizzy Lawrence, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.statnews.com/2026/04/06/rfk-jr-apparent-contradiction-peptides-vaccines-medical-libertarianism/\">What the peptide craze reveals about Americans’ relationship with risk\u003c/a> — Sarah Todd, \u003cem>STAT News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.elle.com/beauty/health-fitness/a73232620/tanmaxxing-trend-explained-interview-2026/\">Is Tanmaxxing an Addiction? A Dermatologist and Psychologist Explains\u003c/a> — Katie Berohn, \u003cem>ELLE\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.gq.com/story/inside-the-weird-new-world-of-peptide-tanning\">Inside the Weird New World of Peptide Tanning\u003c/a> — Savannah Sobrevilla, \u003cem>GQ\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.axios.com/2026/06/29/barbie-drug-peptide-shot-tan\">Melanotan: The “Barbie drug” tanning peptide, explained\u003c/a> — Carly Mallenbaum, \u003cem>Axios\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/live-well/longevity/story/tanning-peptides-melanotan-vyleesi-pt141\">Inside the Viral Tanning Peptide That Accidentally Created Vyleesi’s FDA-Approved Low Sex Drive Drug\u003c/a> — Sara Kitnick, \u003cem>LA Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.allure.com/story/fda-peptide-ban-reversal\">The FDA May Reverse a Ban on 14 Injectable Peptides—What That Means For the Beauty Industry\u003c/a> — Kara Nesvig, \u003cem>Allure\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.skincancer.org/press/the-skin-cancer-foundation-issues-warning-regarding-melanotan-ii/\">The Skin Cancer Foundation Issues Warning Regarding Melanotan II\u003c/a> — Deborah S. Sarnoff, MD, \u003cem>Skin Cancer Foundation\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Host, Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Hello! Do you like these deep dives? Do you want more? Then please rate and review Close All Tabs on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! And tell your friends! Post about it! On Instagram, Bluesky, X, Discord, Reddit, the comments of whatever random recipe blog you start arguments in. Basically, it would be a huge help to get the word out. Ok, let’s get to the show.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Can I be honest? I am pretty vain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I take my skincare routine very seriously: Prescription-strength azelaic acid in the morning, and prescription-strength tretinoin at night. Lots of sunscreen and moisturizer and barrier creams in between, and every other night, I skip the tretinoin and spend three minutes under a red light mask. If I’m feeling indulgent, I’ll throw in a Korean gel mask and a jade roller. Do those do anything? I honestly can’t tell. But it feels nice! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I wouldn’t call myself a looksmaxxer, but I do spend a good amount of time on these beautification rituals. And as a woman who exists on the internet, I feel like my For You Page is constantly lobbing beauty trends at me, and like I’m always trying to avoid getting sucked into yet another fad. I have tried so many serums and face masks and supplements before finally settling into what I consider to be a pretty pared down beauty regiment. But the one thing I haven’t tried yet is a peptide. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It seems like everyone is on them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clips of influencers raving about peptides]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Speaker 1: This is, in my opinion, the most slept-on peptide on the market today. There’s two main benefits that have been life-changing for me . \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Speaker 2: You’re telling me there’s a botox alternative that’s easier on your wallet? Whoa! Let’s talk about Snap-8, the peptide that targets wrinkles without the needles. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Peptides are chemical signals that your body naturally makes to regulate all kinds of bodily functions, like digestion and recovery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> So peptides are like text messages. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Sungat Grewal is a double board certified dermatologist and skin cancer surgeon. She’s the co-director of Laser Surgery and Cosmetic Dermatology at UCSF. And she’s been keeping an eye on the synthetic peptides people are taking to boost their bodies’ natural processes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>They’re not necessarily good or bad inherently, but it depends on who’s sending the message, what the message is, and who receives it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I’m not just talking about GLP-1s. Peptide stacking is really in right now. Retatrutide and Tesamorelin for weight loss, Ipamorelin for muscle growth, the “Wolverine Stack” of BPC-157 and TB-500 to boost healing after a gym sesh. If you throw in the copper peptide GHK-Cu, you’ve got a “Glow Stack,” the hot girl combo optimized for anti-aging collagen production. It’s a lot, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these compounds are not cleared by the FDA, so the way people get a hold of them is a legal hit or miss. But peptides remain incredibly popular despite the gray market. And there’s one that’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> blown up this summer: Melanotan II. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cbr>[Clip from Youtube User @SpaandTell]\u003cbr>Kylie says hi Kim your tan looks great. Thank you! I’ve been using the melanotan II peptide over the last month, and I’ve been going outside, and it’s been working like a charm, so excited. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>MT-2 for short — also known as “The Barbie peptide” or “the vacation drug.” It makes you tan, skinny, and horny (it’s a libido booster) — with no harmful UV exposure required. But Dr. Grewal says it also comes with legitimately concerning risks. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>It’s pretty scary and it’s very sad, you know, when, um, people are chasing aesthetic goals and are being misdirected and exposing themselves to unknown risks or known risks, not only in the moment, but for future and forever forward, right? Some of these impacts have long-lasting effects.\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re diving into the world of peptides: the dangers of tanmaxxing despite the influencer promotion, and RFK Jr’s crusade to reverse the peptide bans in the U.S. What does the peptide craze say about Americans’ relationship with health and risk? Let’s jump in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re starting with a new tab. What is melanotan?\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m part of a few weddings this year, and I wanted to look a little more sunkissed. But I’m inside like, all the time, and I have no interest in tanning beds because I don’t want to wrinkle. Again, vain! Sorry! So I started looking into self tanners. I looked up a few beauty influencers who reviewed tanning lotions … and that’s when my feed was inundated with people\u003cs> \u003c/s>recommending this miracle drug: MT-2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @toxdaddy]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Oh man, I’m super excited. I just got Melanotan 2 this morning and I’m really excited to try it.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @carlysnaxwell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I started taking MT2. I’m tan. I haven’t gone bed tanning in a while… \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @itsdevync]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I’m now at two months of taking it. I’m obsessed. My tan is only getting better … \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Youtube user@SpaandTell]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>I am crazy impressed by this – by this, I mean, the Melanotan 2 peptide.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> And it’s not just the tan that makes it so appealing. Dr. Grewal says Melanotan II also has some specific side effects…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong> It’s marketed as the Barbie peptide because tanning might be the effect that you’re shopping for, but it’s not the only effect and some of them can translate into, um, increased libido or decreased appetite. \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>How does it do all that? Well, let’s talk about how peptides work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Again, peptides are the chemical signals for your body to perform certain functions. Your body has tons of receptors, and peptides can target specific ones, almost like sending a text to a specific phone number. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>You can think about two kinds, like natural versus synthetic. So our body makes peptides naturally. Some common examples would be like insulin or GLP-1. And synthetically, you know, we can create, uh, synthetic peptides to mimic those that are made naturally in the body to get a specific effect\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Melanotan I and Melanotan II are synthetic peptides that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> …mimic a naturally occurring peptide in the body called alpha-MSH or melanocyte-stimulating hormone. And so there are receptors that are in numerous places in the body called melanocortin receptors that can respond to this signal or chain of events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are five types of melanocortin receptors in the body. The first regulates hair and skin pigmentation, and it’s what triggers tans. And it’s also really important to understand what getting tan \u003cem>really\u003c/em> means for your body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest, Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> It’s literally your nucleus and your cell saying, “Oh my God, save my DNA.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung : \u003c/strong>This is Dr. Caren Campbell, a board certified dermatologist who practices medical, surgical, and cosmetic dermatology in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell: \u003c/strong>You know, it’s putting an umbrella over it. Your cell is saying, like, “Help me. Protect my DNA so I don’t mutate and cause cancer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That little umbrella is called eumelanin, and it produces brown and black pigments in the body. It’s what causes darker colors in skin, eyes, and hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So Melanotan I sends a text to that first melanocortin receptor, which tells your cells to pop their little umbrellas up to protect their DNA … which is what triggers a tan, without actual UV exposure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan I is actually FDA-approved for a very, very specific, very rare skin condition that causes extreme sensitivity to light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Erythropoietic protoporphyria\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Or EPP for short. It’s actually so rare that Dr. Grewal has never seen the condition in her medical career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Its incidence has been estimated at two to five cases per million people. You would know if you had this because you have symptoms when you’re a young child. Children have very severe, painful, uh, photosensitivity after exposure to sunlight or even visible light, which can come from even indoor lights, laptop screens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>EPP causes extreme swelling, burning, and pain when exposed to certain light. So the FDA approved a prescription implant of Melanotan I for people with EPP, which stimulates their bodies to produce eumelanin. These little cell umbrellas absorb that light before it can damage their skin. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Melanotan II, which is the hot one right now, sends a group text to that first receptor. But remember, there are \u003cem>5\u003c/em> melanocortin receptors in the body. So it’s also sending that text to receptors three, four, and five as well. And these aren’t just in the skin. They’re all over the body, including in the central nervous system, which is why MT-2 can cause appetite suppression and boost libido. And because these receptors are all over the body, MT-2 can also cause unpredictable systemic changes … with unpleasant and even dangerous symptoms. Here’s Dr. Campbell again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> In men, that can lead to potentially what’s called priapism, which is where you have an erection that, you know, doesn’t go away, and there was a, a case report of someone needing to have that surgically drained in the emergency room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, it, it also can cause nausea and vomiting. It’s also stimulates our sympathetic nervous system, which you can think about that like your fight or flight. So anything you needed to, like, run away from a predator, it does. So it dilates your pupils so you can see better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It causes, you know, increased heart rate so you can get running. It causes hypertension ’cause it constricts your blood vessels. Um, so that fight or flight response can be elevated and you can get what’s called rhabdomyolysis, which is where you get muscle breakdown, and it can be very dangerous, um, life-threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So those side effects are pretty rough. But Dr. Grewal says there’s also this main one … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> We have seen reports of patients like breaking out in moles, for example, and breaking out in atypical or what we call funky looking moles, right? \u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from TikTok user @\u003c/em>cablequeencourt]\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Let’s count how many moles we have on our face since taking MT2. So this one’s new. This is new …Yeah, um, and that’s not including what’s going on on my body….\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Moles are clusters of melanocytes, the skin cells that make pigment. Most are totally benign. But like Dr. Grewal said, Melanotan moles are … funky.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Because it’s stimulating the same pathway that can eventually lead to melanoma. And again, we don’t have causation yet, but we do not have long-term data. And so why would you subject yourself to that risk when you can use other methods to tan the skin safely without breaking out in moles? And the moles are not just darker, the moles, like, look concerning. They, they often have atypical features.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Those little cell umbrellas can only protect so much. And if you’re exposing them to harmful UV rays over and over again, they can mutate and become cancerous. One of the ways dermatologists evaluate moles for cancer is by checking if they’ve evolved — if they’re getting bigger, darker, and wonkier. This isn’t as much of a concern for patients who are prescribed MT-1 for EPP, since they’re generally not engaging in risky behavior that causes additional UV damage — like intentionally tanning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when it comes to the tanmaxxers … \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Instagram user @sooshbrah]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>This is 2021, 2022, I was doing 500 micrograms of Melanotan and I was jumping in the tanning bed for 15 minutes. I literally changed race in like three sessions. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Caren Campbell:\u003c/strong> I can’t say for certain that, you know, melanotan causes melanoma. But we do know based on what are, again, called case [00:23:00] reports, where we don’t have large numbers, but we have good evidence of people who’ve started melanotan and then as soon as two weeks noticed almost immediate darkening and irregularity of their moles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Dr. Campbell said that in this case report, one of the patients had used tanning beds and melanotan at the same time, and had five new moles biopsied. All five were cancerous. And there aren’t many clinical studies on the effects of long-term melanotan use, in a broad population of users who don’t have EPP. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Melanotan II was actually developed in the late 80s to early 90s, and in the early 2000s, researchers began testing it to treat sexual dysfunction. But Dr. Grewal says there’s a reason it never made it to market. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> Usually when a peptide or any product is on its way to becoming a drug, it goes through rigorous testing, and pharmaceuticals would love to sell it because they’re gonna profit immensely. So usually when it drops off the track, it’s because either it’s not providing the results that they’re hoping for or the safety is not promising\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Despite that, both MT-1 and MT-2 are still wildly popular on the gray market, as both a nasal spray and an injectable. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately I am not surprised because, you know, the story of wanting tanner skin is a story we’ve heard before. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Um, you know, first it was tanning beds, now we know how dangerous those are in terms of increasing melanoma risk even with one use, you know, before the age of 30. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And as is the case with many unregulated, technically illegal peptides, vendors can sell them around the US thanks to a handy loophole: the “Research Use Only” pathway. Essentially saying, this product legally isn’t for human consumption, with no quality guarantee or regulatory oversight. But there’s really nothing that can stop buyers from using it on themselves. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> You have to remember that when it’s not FDA regulated, you really have no idea what’s in the bottle. What you’re getting in your bottle is like a crapshoot. So, you know, and historically we’ve seen issues with, um, sterility of products, contamination with unregulated products, and the concentration and the purity is also unknown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that alone is like a huge reason why I would never advise anyone to take a non FDA-approved medication, whether or not it’s a peptide, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So knowing all of these risks, both healthwise and lookswise, why are people bent on taking Melanotan? And this is just one of many unregulated, very popular peptides! What’s driving the peptide boom in spite of medical experts’ warnings?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That is a whole new tab… for after this quick break. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But first, we wanted to remind you that Close All Tabs depends on listeners like you! To become a member and support the show, go to donate dot kqed dot org slash podcasts. Ok, after the break: we’re diving into medical libertarianism. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Welcome back! Time to open a new tab. Peptides and medical libertarianism. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK Jr, the vaccine denier and guy in charge of our entire country’s health department, is also a pep pusher. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Yeah I mean I’m a big fan of peptides. I’ve used them myself. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was RFK Jr on Joe Rogan’s podcast earlier this year, where he spoke about the proliferation of unregulated peptides. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[RFK Jr. speaking on the Joe Rogan Podcast]\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>A black market came out and the black market is run by companies that say they’re making the peptides for animal use or research purposes. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So basically when you buy peptides online you don’t have any guarantees about the safety and the quality of what you’re buying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That’s Sarah Todd, a reporter at STAT News. She covers the business of health, which means she’s also been following the gray market peptide industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> New York Magazine had a bunch of peptides tested and found that about a third of them were mislabeled or under or overdosed or contaminated by bacteria. So those are all some of the potential health risks that you run into when you’re getting them off the gray and black market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But that hasn’t diminished people’s appetite for peptides. Sarah says this all falls in line with a concept called “medical libertarianism” — the idea that we should be allowed to do whatever we want with our bodies regardless of what the government or medical establishment says.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that extends to taking drugs like peptides that don’t have a lot of data behind them when it comes to their impacts on humans, either their benefits or their potential risks. But the idea with medical libertarianism is, like, that’s my choice, and if I’m willing to put my body on the line for the hopeful benefits that I can get, then I should be able to do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>It’s a very American mindset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> It really goes along with this sort of all-American idea that we can control our own destinies and make our own choices, right? And a sort of suspicion about the government’s role in overseeing people’s lives, a desire to, you know, ward off the idea of the nanny state and the idea that people should be able to chase their own pursuit of happiness and the American dream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And if that includes self-optimizing your body and your health, then that’s something that people should be allowed to do, would be the argument that these people are making.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Americans have always had this attitude about health. In the 1970s, there was a huge backlash from the public when the government tried to regulate vitamin and supplement industries…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People wrote in and said, “Don’t take my vitamins away, “ and we wound up with the situation that we have today, where they’re still many people would argue, uh, largely unregulated or very under-regulated. I think that people really wanted to hold on to these kinds of products. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been ebbs and flows to medical libertarianism throughout modern American history. And then the COVID 19 pandemic hit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> People started self-experimenting with all kinds of things, like everything from ivermectin, which you m- may remember, to some sort of herbal medicines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> On one hand, you had a lot of interest in sort of like experimentation with drugs to see what you could do to improve your own health, protect yourself potentially from COVID in various ways. We also saw a big boom in the rise of social media health influencers, health and wellness influencers during this time as well, and I think that has played a huge role.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Many of the sort of man-fluencers like Joe Rogan and, and Gary Brecka and Andrew Huberman were already popular pre-pandemic, but sort of like became even more so, gained huge followings during, and I think that that’s had a lot to do with the sort of rising awareness of peptides and interest in trying them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>People started taking this “folk pharmacology” approach to medicine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So that term folk pharmacology was mentioned by a researcher I spoke with for a story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His name is Luke Turnock, and he talked about how first it sort of started, uh, with peptides in the gym, with bodybuilders and powerlifters sort of sharing, like, “Oh, this, this drug is really helping me recover from this industry. This drug is making me stronger.” But he applies that to the way that people talk about peptides in online spaces and forums as well, where people are generally a lot more likely to believe somebody else on a Reddit forum than they might be to listen to a researcher who’s telling them there’s not enough data to support taking these drugs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think it, it has to do with some of the decline of trust in science, and then it also has to do with the sort of, like, just stock that we put in recommendations from other people who we perceive as regular people, whether that’s, like, you know, somebody telling us, like, “Oh, I love this vacuum,” or in this case, “I love my Wolverine stack,” you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The Make American Healthy Again movement is also pretty staunchly anti-vaccine. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When I first started thinking about this, I was like, “This seems like a huge contradiction.” I didn’t understand why the MAHA movement would be so skeptical toward vaccines and yet really welcoming toward peptides. But I think it comes back to what we were talking about with medical libertarianism.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of the MAHA people don’t necessarily want nobody to get vaccines. They say they are more wary of certain vaccine mandates. So there the idea again is like, “Don’t tell me what to do with my own body. It should be my choice whether or not I take it.” Peptides, again, they’re saying they don’t want everybody to have to take peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They just wanna be able to take peptides if they want to. So that’s where it all sort of begins to make sense in an overall worldview.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this brand of medical libertarianism is applied pretty inconsistently. RFK Jr’s MAHA agenda is actively restricting access to trans healthcare, birth control, and abortion — issues that revolve around bodily autonomy. But when it comes to peptides? They believe the government should be hands-off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It goes back to a Biden-era decision.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> So back in 2023, the Biden administration moved a bunch of peptides into a different category. That meant that compounding pharmacies could no longer produce them, and their reasons were basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about the typical warnings that we get from the medical community, that these drugs haven’t been studied enough to be able to say definitively that they are either going to do what they promise they’ll do or that they won’t cause some other big problem like cancer as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that was the reason for moving over the classification. Now what Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is looking to do is to reclassify some of those peptides so the compounding pharmacies can indeed begin producing them again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Which means that they can be legally produced in the US, under \u003cem>some\u003c/em> regulatory oversight — unlike the facilities that are producing gray market peptides now. Compounding pharmacies at least have to be licensed and routinely inspected through state pharmacy boards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>RFK JR. has been on this crusade to get the FDA to lift this Biden-era peptide ban — which he talked about on that same Joe Rogan podcast episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> He basically said that he is a fan of peptides. He wants to make them more accessible via compounding pharmacies. Uh, but the reason he says is not necessarily he understands that not all the science and data is out there on peptides yet, but he says that it’s gonna be safer for people to get them from compounding pharmacies than to get them off the gray and black market, and that’s sort of his logic for, for why it would make sense to, to reclassify them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And that is a new tab. Are peptides legal now? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>I\u003c/strong>t’s complicated. We’re gonna start by explaining different kinds of pharmacies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, typical pharmacies make and dispense FDA-approved drugs. There are the retail pharmacies that sell over-the-counter allergy meds or fill your prescriptions for blood pressure pills. There are specialty pharmacies that manage medications for very rare, highly complex health conditions, which might require stricter protocols for handling, storing, and administering meds. Both of these types of pharmacies mainly deal with medications that have already been manufactured. The pharmacy makes sure they’re giving patients the right dosage and right amount of pre-made meds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, compounding pharmacies mix the medications themselves. There are lots of reasons why people use them: maybe the commercial version of the drug includes ingredients they’re allergic to, or maybe they need a cream, not a gel. Maybe the only way to get the right dosage is by getting a custom mix. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Sometimes there are drug shortages, and compounding pharmacies can be an alternative as well then because they can custom make a particular drug that maybe, uh, isn’t available at the moment. It might also be, as was the case with GLP-1 weight loss drugs, uh, compounding pharmacies were making a lot of, uh, GLP-1 drugs that were alternatives to the more expensive ones, like Ozempic and Wegovy, and the idea h- here was, like, you sacrifice the sort of name brand, uh, aspect, but then you, you could get the, the drugs that would have, hopefully, the same effects for cheaper.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that’s another reason why people might turn to compounding pharmacies as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>In recent years, compounding pharmacies have become wildly lucrative, thanks to the rise of for-profit telehealth. A lot of telehealth companies have in-house compounding pharmacies, and they sell all kinds of prescription meds: personalized topical creams with Tretinoin and Niacinamide for acne, chewable tablets of Finasteride and Minoxidil for hair loss, low-dose Vardenafil for erectile dysfunction, custom-mixed hormone replacement suppositories for menopause, and now, compounded GLP-1s for weight loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Compounding pharmacies can legally make anything … as long the ingredients they’re working are good with the FDA. The final product doesn’t have to be FDA-approved.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The drugs that a compounding pharmacy makes do not necessarily have to have been authorized by the FDA. Um, as long as, you know, they have a prescription for that drug from a healthcare provider, they will, will produce the drugs. And then there’s certain, uh, substances that they’re not allowed to make, such as the peptides that are currently on the 503B substances list. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There are 19 peptides on that 503B substances list, including Melanotan II. Earlier this year, the FDA announced that they were going to consider reclassifying \u003cem>some\u003c/em> of those banned peptides. This is not the same as FDA approval. They haven’t gone through clinical trials that guarantee safety or efficacy, and the FDA doesn’t verify the quality before they hit the market. But if they are reclassified, that means that compounding pharmacies are allowed to make and distribute medications that contain them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The argument that was probably most common from the people on the side of making peptides more accessible via compounding pharmacies was that it’s true that we don’t have all the data yet, and we do need more of it. However, we really don’t want people getting these drugs off the gray and black market because of the other health risks, you know, the risks of contamination, the risk of mislabeled drugs where you think that you’re getting one thing, you’re actually getting something else. And they basically said patients are demanding these drugs and we should make sure that if they’re going to take them, they’re taking it the safest way they can.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In other words, it’s better to have Americans sourcing their peptides from regulated facilities, rather than overseas labs that may not be held to the same standards of sterility and quality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In July, an FDA advisory panel met to discuss whether or not to recommend reclassification for seven peptides.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> The advisory panel itself was really controversial. So this is a group of people who aren’t members of the FDA themselves, and the FDA doesn’t have to follow their recommendations, but typically, their recommendations carry a lot of weight, and typically, an advisory panel is made up of doctors, researchers, other experts in their field.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In this case the people who were appointed to the panel, a lot of them were people who had some sort of potential conflict of interest or stake in the outcome of the decision on peptides, people who are prescribing peptides themselves, people who are you know, affiliated with compounding pharmacies in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So that immediately raised a lot of red flags for critics who said, “How can we trust the advice of an advisory panel if it’s people who would potentially stand to profit from what the outcome is?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>The pro-peptide crowd on the panel pointed out that patients are demanding these drugs, and that \u003cem>some \u003c/em>regulatory oversight is better than continuing to allow Americans to get their peptides from sketchy overseas labs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>Then the counterargument from the medical experts is basically that there, again, simply isn’t enough human data on these drugs. There’s a lot of concern about what it would mean to make it easier for people to take these drugs that are indeed in high demand but that we simply don’t know what kinds of short or long-term health effects they might have.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And there have been cases of people reporting getting sick, having injuries from peptide doses. So, you know there are real concerns about what should be done in order to monitor peptides better and make sure that they’re safe. And you could hear a lot of frustration from the medical experts who were on the advisory panel as each vote on each separate drug went down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They vote on each drug individually, so as they started seeing what was going to happen of those seven drugs, six got recommended to be reclassified so that compounding pharmacies could make them. So a lot of frustration from the medical experts saying like,’Once again, we don’t know enough about how these drugs will impact people. We’re really worried that this is gonna be dangerous and put people’s health and potentially even their lives at risk.’ And then they were outnumbered on the panel by the, the people who were affiliated with the peptide industry or prescription in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And this is where it gets really dicey. Before the advisory panel met, the FDA itself came out and said, hey, we say no to allowing compounding pharmacies to make any of these peptides. This was a decision made by multiple FDA staff scientists. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> And that was directly in conflict with the outcome of the meeting, which said six out of these seven peptides, they do recommend changing classifications.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Advisory panels rarely go against the FDA staff recommendation. According to reports of that meeting, after the votes were tallied and the recommendation was announced, an audible gasp rippled through the room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd: \u003c/strong>So with that, it’s gonna be really interesting to see now what happens. The ultimate decision is up to the FDA. So normally, it would be even if the advisory panel had recommended against, if FDA staffers felt really strongly, they could do whatever they felt was right but Robert F. Kennedy Jr., of course, is the head of the health department. He has a lot of power and influence, and I think a lot of outside observers are betting that even if FDA staff don’t think that this change should be made, that Kennedy may push it through which would obviously be quite bad for FDA morale as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Who will benefit from this decision? Well, like we talked about earlier, the telehealth industry and their in-house compounding pharmacies make a TON of money. And now they stand to make even more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> When you have people on the panel who it’s clear to see how they’re seeing a lot of patient demand. If they’re able to provide more prescriptions to patients for peptides, that is good for their business.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the compounding pharmacies, it’s certainly huge for their bottom line. Hims and Hers announced that they’re looking to start offering peptides this year. Noom has also moved to start offering peptides. They purchased a compounding pharmacy business. So there are a lot of companies that certainly see an upside to giving into demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But as one of the people who I spoke with pointed out, simply because people want drugs isn’t a good reason to authorize them, and simply because we don’t want them to get it off the gray market. If that were the case, then we would legalize heroin, which indeed actually some libertarians think we should, but which the majority of people think that there are good reasons to not do such a thing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> so given the FDA’s, uh, I guess, like despite their tensions, um, what does the future of peptide stacking look like now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> For people who are enthusiastic about peptides, I think the future is bright in the sense of them being able to access them. I think it looks like more and more likely that there’s going to be a lot of regulatory interest under Kennedy as long as he’s in power in making these products more accessible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think that in terms of what the future looks like from a health perspective, the reality is that we simply don’t know, and that’s kind of scary. We don’t know what kind of effects these are going to have, and we don’t really right now have a robust way of monitoring or surveying for those effects either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So what you would really wanna see are clinical trials that are studying people who are taking peptides and researching those outcomes, and that is one thing that we don’t currently have right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But again, a recommendation isn’t the same as FDA approval. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Just because this, uh, the panel has said this, that doesn’t mean that compounding pharmacies now have the go-ahead to start producing them. The final decision is up to the FDA and the FDA rulemaking. I believe that outside experts think that process could take up to a year, so it’s not something that we would expect to see immediately happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>What about Melanotan II? Unfortunately for the tanmaxxers, the Barbie pep was not included in this latest list of panel recommendations. But it will get its moment soon: The FDA is slated to evaluate Melanotan II and four more peptides for reclassification early next year. \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That doesn’t mean it’s hard to get a hold of now, though. When I searched “Melanotan II near me,” I found dozens of medical spas across LA that advertise it as part of their “peptide therapy.” For $95, I could drive over to Beverly Hills and pick up a 5 mL vial at a clinic, or $150, I could get it delivered! Mobile IV clinics also offer it as an add-on to their on-demand IV services, so I could get my tan on, get a whole GLOW stack injected, and get a hangover cure administered at the same time, in my own living room! It’s like doordash for peptides! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though, Dr. Grewal does not find that as amusing as I do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dr. Sungat Grewal:\u003c/strong> My gut reaction is honestly mortified, terrified, but also not surprised. And again, it just really brings me back to the point of, you know, the body is really complicated and medicine is complicated.I think the most important thing is that you research the person that is endorsing a specific product or, um, or approach, right? So, like, I love that people research, but I would really encourage, and I’m an advocate of spending the most time researching your source, who you’re going to assign as being credible\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>As much as I love my skincare routine and gratuitous pursuit of beauty, I personally will be staying clear of the Barbie peptide. A little gradual tanning lotion and my trusty tanning mitt has never done me wrong. Plus, I don’t have to worry about breaking out into funky looking moles! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ok, let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode was produced by Cayla Mihalovich and Maya Cueva. It was edited by Chris Hambrick. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Close All Tabs team also includes senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music, and audio engineer Brendan Willard. Our intern is Lauren Yoon. Additional music by APM.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is Executive Director of Podcasts, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This episode includes clips from TikTok creators carlysnaxwell, itsdevnyc, and cablequeencourt, clips from the Instagram accounts ToxDaddy and sooshbrah, and YouTube clips from SpaAndTell and Joe Rogan Experience.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks for listening! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> I mean, my ‘foryou’ page every day it’s like, “Who’s on Glow? Who’s on the Glow stack or the Barbie stack?” Like you can’t escape it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Todd:\u003c/strong> Yeah, all over.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute",
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"headTitle": "Kaiser Permanente to Pay 1,100 Nurses Millions in Owed Wages After Years-Long Dispute | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "The California Nurses Association estimates total missed pay in the tens of millions of dollars.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/kaiser-permanente\">Kaiser Permanente\u003c/a> must pay more than 1,100 registered nurses owed wages that could total tens of millions of dollars after a systemic payroll error, according to the union that represents the nurses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California Nurses Association \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-massive-historic-victory-against-disgusting-kaiser-wage-theft\">celebrated\u003c/a> Monday an arbitrator’s resolution of the years-long dispute as a “historic victory against wage theft.” Union President Michelle Gutierrez Vo, an adult family nurse at Kaiser Fremont Medical Center, said it took years of advocacy and research to understand the scope of the problem and get the company on track to fully remedy it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The issue really is that we gave Kaiser all of the information that we gathered that was accurate and even then Kaiser refused to correct it,” an incensed Gutierrez Vo, a registered nurse for more than 25 years, told KQED. “It’s taking an arbitrator to really force Kaiser to do right by our nurses.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All of these years, they’d rather pay expensive lawyers to not pay the nurses that work super hard. That’s just unethical and immoral and it’s very disappointing,” she added. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The union, which represents about 23,000 nurses at 22 Kaiser facilities, said members first alerted the company to an underpayment issue, dating back to at least 2021, after Kaiser changed its human resources software. It’s unclear how much retroactive pay each impacted nurse is now set to receive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097883\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-2-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Tuesday to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In a statement, Kaiser said it disagrees with the union’s characterization but will honor its obligations under the arbitrator’s decision, reached in a grievance process outlined in their labor contract. California’s \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/expertise-and-impact/public-policy/our-impact/news-perspectives-on-public-policy-california\">largest private employer\u003c/a>, with a workforce of 183,000 in the state, declined to disclose more information about the payroll problem that shorted its nurses, or whether additional, non-nurse employees were also impacted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our nurses are among the most skilled and dedicated in the country, and we are committed to ensuring every one of them is paid accurately and in full accordance with their contract,” a company spokesperson said in a statement. “We will reach out directly to every affected nurse promptly.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As early as June 2022, union representatives notified Kaiser that it failed to advance several staff nurses to higher pay rates agreed to by years of experience and other factors. The issue appeared to be ongoing and widespread, the union warned in following years, with about 600 nurses eventually reporting paycheck errors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By December 2024, a Kaiser payroll audit identified 1,142 nurses who were paid less than they should have been, while 1,813 were paid more than warranted by the contract. The company, which did not attempt to recoup money from employees paid an incorrect higher salary, took steps to place all the impacted employees in the appropriate salary bracket. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Previously, when individuals complained of a paycheck problem, Kaiser would investigate and correct it, providing them with retroactive owed pay dating to when the error began. But in this case, Kaiser sought to dismiss the union’s grievance and offered only up to a year of owed wages to the group of 1,142 nurses, even if they were underpaid for longer, according to arbitrator David A. Weinberg’s decision document, which was reviewed by KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The proper remedy for a contractual violation…is to make the nurses whole for any loss in wages and benefits going back to the date of their incorrect placement on the wage step,” he wrote, rejecting Kaiser’s arguments. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Weinberg also found that the company should not pay additional damages of 10%, as the union sought, including for lost 401K retirement account investments and attorneys fees. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wage theft, when an employer withholds pay an employee is entitled to, is more likely to disadvantage non-union workers in low-wage jobs in construction, hospitality, agriculture and other industries. Labor experts were surprised that union-represented nurses, who earn a higher median wage than other full-time workers, experienced problems of the magnitude described in Kaiser’s case. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you didn’t have a union that was so prepared to stick at this and had the ability to force Kaiser to go through all of these steps, then we’d probably never have gotten to this stage,” said John Logan, who directs San Francisco State University’s labor and employment studies program.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12097892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/Kaiser-Labor-1-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Dozens of nurses staged what they called an “informational picket” outside Kaiser Permanente Oakland Medical Center on Sept. 1 to demand better staffing levels and limits on AI. (Courtesy of California Nurses Association)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Logan noted that the fact that it took such a lengthy, laborious process for Kaiser to agree to compensate its employees with owed wages points to more contentious labor-management relations at the company, which was once known for its collaborative approach to unions. The industry has become increasingly consolidated, and driven by profit-seeking corporations in recent decades.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Kaiser should be the easiest company to remedy this kind of problem, if it was just an honest mistake,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kaiser said its nurses are among the industry’s best-compensated. One of the employee groups impacted, Staff Nurses II in Northern California, often earn more than $100 per hour before overtime and premium pay. That’s roughly 7% above market for comparable roles at other health systems, according to the company, one of the nation’s largest nonprofit health plans and providers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The news that Kaiser nurses are set to collectively recover millions of dollars comes as the employer negotiates a new contract with the California Nurses Association. Top union demands focus on staffing levels, wages and more say over the use of artificial intelligence in patient care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Gov. Gavin Newsom recently signed into law a union-sponsored bill that \u003ca href=\"https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/nurses-celebrate-historic-victory-as-gov-newsom-signs-landmark-ai-protection-into-law\">limits the use of A.I.\u003c/a> in clinical decisions. \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1979\">AB 1979\u003c/a> by Oakland Assemblymember Mia Bonta requires a health facility or physicians’ office to take reasonable steps to ensure that nurses, doctors and other licensed healthcare professionals decide a patient’s care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In contrast to for-profit health care systems, Kaiser does not have shareholders and invests most of its earnings into patient care, its operations and facility upgrades. The Oakland-headquartered company, which has expanded in recent years to eight states and the District of Columbia, earned \u003ca href=\"https://about.kaiserpermanente.org/news/press-release-archive/kaiser-permanente-risant-health-report-2025-financial-results\">$127.7 billion last year,\u003c/a> spending most of that revenue in operating expenses. Kaiser reported a net profit of $1.4 billion, more than double what it generated in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Writer Sarah Haas became obsessed with a woman she’d never met: her husband’s ex. In her new book, Jealousy: A Memoir, she explores how jealousy can consume us, distort reality and begin to feel like a force of its own.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jealousy can begin as curiosity, even admiration, before it curdles into something darker. For writer Sarah Haas, an old Instagram post of her husband’s ex became the root of an obsession. She began to stalk the woman online, pore over her photographs and even tried to look like her. She began to feel the woman’s presence in ordinary moments in her marriage, the intrusive thoughts spiraling her into anger and shame. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person,” said Haas. “And she became somebody who was always with me and who was standing against me. She was a threat to what I had.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Haas about the destructive power of jealousy and the source of the emotion she calls both noxious and inevitable. Haas’s forthcoming book is “Jealousy: A Memoir.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas, \u003c/strong>author, “Jealousy: A Memoir”\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah, you have really experienced the absolute depths of jealousy. How do you define it? And how is it potentially different from envy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Jealousy is a possessive urge. It wants to take something and own it and have it, buy it, keep it. And that’s really predicated, when it comes to romantic jealousy, on turning another person into a thing in order to make that attempt, in order to have that urge. So it can be quite dangerous. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You even call it forbidden. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s hazardous, and it’s also inevitable. So it’s a part of us. It’s cyclical, and it’s a little bit ruthless as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Your memoir really centers on this type of jealousy that we’re talking about, an all-consuming jealousy. It gripped you in the very early stages of your relationship with your boyfriend, who is now your husband. It started with an old Instagram image of one of his former partners. At first, it seems like you’re kind of fascinated and even filled with a little bit of admiration. Is that how it started?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I plot jealousy on a spectrum — and it’s not mine; it’s borrowed from a philosopher, Max Scheler. At a certain point, envy gives way to jealousy just as green eventually on the color spectrum becomes blue, and it becomes poisonous. It’s a deadening. It’s hardening. When I first saw those pictures of my husband’s ex, I went through those stages from naivete, being myself and seeing her being herself, to distinguishing between us, one of us is different than the other, to judging her, wanting to make a qualification about who was better or worse, to admiring her bittersweetly, and eventually it gave way to jealousy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Then what happens? Because you move on pretty quickly to competitor and eventually a threat to your very existence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I think my experience became mythological. In part, that’s because jealousy is a mythological phenomenon that swirls in all of the mythologies of the world. It’s really big and intense. It begs to take details and turn them into symbols. Like her blonde hair became so important to me. I hated it. I wanted it. I didn’t want it. I would go to Walmart and see blondes, and each of them had so much meaning that had nothing to do with them and their specifics. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And we should say you have long brown hair. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I have long, brown hair. So, as jealousy and I developed a relationship, I felt like it overtook me, and that was terrifying and thrilling. Also, I had to acknowledge, at a certain point, that jealousy seemed to have agency. What was happening to me wasn’t just one subject, but two. We outstripped the bounds of reality together. I resisted this possession. I didn’t. I wielded it, but either way we were bigger than reality.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I mean, are you eating? Are you sleeping? Are you functioning? You’re married to this man, so clearly you’re engaged enough in the relationship to keep him engaged. But it sounds like your inner landscape was quite tortured.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and returning to that idea of everything became a symbol. I’m eating, and I’m sleeping. And we’re having sex, and we are developing our relationship, but I was in a slightly different plane of existence than he was. So if we’re eating spaghetti, I scan my brain to think, “Have I ever seen a picture of him eating spaghetti or her eating spaghetti? Maybe spaghetti is their love language.” It was impossible for me to just simply enjoy anything or to really experience anything very presently except for jealousy, which was always at a remove from the real world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What were you most jealous of? What was the quality of the thing that she either had or you projected that she had that really was getting to you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>We were about to take a trip together to Las Vegas, and I had already developed my whole mythology of who she was, and what they were to each other, and hadn’t really discussed it with him yet. And before we left for the trip, I thought it would be wise to ask him about her just to see, to get the cards out on the table. He said, “Do you really wanna know?” I said, “I do.” He said, “She’s my soulmate, but it didn’t work out in this lifetime.” I remember that night going to sleep and thinking about how we could very well live a life together, but on our deathbed, he’d be waiting for the next life so he could be with her. And it felt impossible to deny that, as impossible as it felt to deny that I had feelings for him, that I was in love with him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How different was the character that began to be created in your mind? How different was that character from her reality?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>It’s important to note that I’ve never met her. That’s never happened. I’ve seen pictures of her, and not very many. But I’ve seen hundreds of pictures that she’s taken because she’s a photographer. I studied her, and I Googled her, and I did all the things you can do on the internet to find out about a person. She became somebody who was always with me, who was also standing against me. She was a threat to what I had. And as my husband and I got closer and closer to marriage and our lives melded together, possessable things came into our relationship because a marriage becomes a contract about things. It was my economic security. I quit my job. I depended on him. I lived in his house. I felt that I needed to keep her away as if she was an enemy or a threat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You mentioned that you have looked at many, many pictures that she took. So obviously, you were looking, you were scrolling through her social media account. It’s almost kind of like a form of masochism that many of us can probably relate to, especially in today’s social media world. Why do you think you continued to dig deeper? Why do we continue to scroll, even when it’s really, really painful?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>There was a part of me that wanted to see how the story ended and maybe even wanted to play a part in begetting the end. I was convinced that if this was my husband’s soulmate, they were meant to be together. And so it’s like, okay, let’s just get ahead. Let’s get to the end so I can be released, and we can all go home and know how this ends.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning you were trying to push them together? How do you get that story to play out for yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas:\u003c/strong> Do I tempt him? Do I enrage him? Do I push him? I never went so far as to reach out to her, but I tried to look like her. There was a part of me that was like, “Let’s prove that you’re attracted to this woman because you’ll be attracted to the version of me that looks like this woman.” And none of it worked; he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Would you say that there was a sexual element, like a fetish that began to awaken in you around jealousy that you played out with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Well, it’s certainly the most adventurous I’ve ever been sexually, but part of it was getting to play someone else and getting to be bad. Sex is a really interesting thing in a marriage and in a relationship, because it’s not just nice. I did develop an understanding, or at least an experience, of obsession and of wanting to be someone else, to see what that would do to our relationship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>To that end, to find out more, to flesh out what you know, you steal your husband’s phone to read his old text messages to his ex. Describe that moment and what did you decide to do next once you had that information?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I had imagined all the ways that the two of them could have been together. I would insist on my imaginations and what’s actually real. Every attempt he made to deny that, I would say, “No, it’s not true. I know what happened.” When I read the texts, I confirmed some of what I thought I knew to be true. I started to feel really justified. There was a part of me that realized that I had really violated his privacy by going into his phone. I had peered into this relationship that I had no business peering into. I was pretty overwhelmed by shame at that point. And I took a bath, and I got really close to very seriously considering whether or not I ought to live, because if you see that kind of evil inside of you, what are you supposed to do with it? But the decision I came to was that I should marry him, and that we should have a child because it was a way to embody possession. It was a way to make him mine and to hold him to account in a way. Okay, you say you love me, then it’s time to be possessed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you feel on the other side, though? The way you described it in the book, it’s like this literal mythological character takes over your soul. Are you wrestling with that on a daily basis?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>I’m hesitant to say, because I think that I’m at a point with jealousy where I’m wanting to throw my hands up and relinquish control and let it develop some substance on its own terms. I want to acknowledge that it’s noxious and that it is inevitable. As much as it’s a personal failure, it’s also a collective failure because it’s built in and incentivized into consumerism and social media, and it’s provoked. And there’s something that’s worth seeing in that, that it’s not necessarily something that needs to hide in the shadow of shame, even if it is a despotic impulse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think if you met her, it would end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>No, it would change. It would change probably beyond recognition. It would be a new version of the jealous cycle. When you’re in a relationship, there’s the time that you spend with your partner, and then there’s the time that they exist apart from you. I often find myself aching to be a part of every one of his experiences, but that’s not what a relationship is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Sarah, for sharing your story and really humanizing a feeling that we all tend to shrink from. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Haas: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Sarah Haas is a writer whose forthcoming book is \u003cem>Jealousy: A Memoir\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "commercial-gas-kitchens-expose-workers-to-a-soup-of-pollution-high-heat",
"title": "Commercial Gas Kitchens Expose Workers to a ‘Soup of Pollution,’ High Heat",
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"headTitle": "Commercial Gas Kitchens Expose Workers to a ‘Soup of Pollution,’ High Heat | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens outfitted with gas-fired appliances can reach temperatures as hot as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/tag/california\">California’s\u003c/a> Death Valley in the summer and expose workers to harmful gases in excess of health-based guidelines, according to a first-of-its-kind \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ae9d96\">study\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens where workers cook with all-electric appliances, on the other hand, were much cooler and did not exceed any health guidelines for pollution exposure, the study found.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The study authors said the research is the first U.S. analysis to compare air quality and heat between gas-burning commercial kitchens and all-electric ones under real-world working conditions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“ In the majority of gas-fired kitchens we measured, the pollution levels exceeded health benchmarks for hours on end,” said Yannai Kashtan, air quality scientist at the nonprofit research institute PSE Healthy Energy, and the study’s first author.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1358\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-768x521.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-1536x1043.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Aeris analyzers, which measure methane, ethane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide and monoxide, in the air rest at the Jackson Lab at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>The research was published Tuesday in the journal \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1748-9326\">\u003cem>Environmental Research Letters\u003c/em>\u003c/a> by scientists at Stanford University, New York University and PSE Healthy Energy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan’s team measured nitrogen dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane and air temperature in 21 gas kitchens, three propane kitchens and three all-electric kitchens across California, Pennsylvania and New York. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sampled kitchens included both fine-dining and casual restaurants, catering facilities and institutions serving senior living communities and schools. The researchers measured kitchen air quality with specialized sensors, and tracked gas concentrations and temperature when the spaces were both in service and not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In about 70% of the gas-fired restaurants sampled, nitrogen dioxide concentrations during work hours exceeded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and World Health Organization one-hour exposure guidelines, the study found. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Exposure to high concentrations of nitrogen dioxide can contribute to the development of asthma and increase susceptibility to respiratory infections, according to the EPA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study also found concentrations of carbon monoxide and benzene, a known carcinogen, in concentrations exceeding California’s 1-hour exposure guideline in three and five gas-fired kitchens, respectively. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The three electric kitchens had levels of pollution “pretty close to background levels,” according to Kashtan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Not zero, but not much higher than you would be breathing just walking around,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said he was surprised to find that roughly two-thirds of gas-powered kitchens measured had higher levels of pollution when they weren’t in service, something he attributed to ventilation fans not operating while the pilot lights of gas ranges continued to sputter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That means cleaning crews or early arriving staff might be exposed to some of the highest levels of pollution, before the kitchen begins service and cooks turn on ventilation fans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One concrete, actionable thing that anybody can do is turn on the ventilation the minute you walk into the kitchen in the morning to flush out everything that’s built up overnight, and that’s going to keep you from breathing in this soup of pollution,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Restaurants with pilot lights could switch to more modern equipment that uses electronic spark ignition to prevent overnight pollution, said Theresa Pistochini, associate director of the Western Cooling Efficiency Center, although she acknowledged that could be expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001893\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, explains how her team uses the Aeris analyzers to measure greenhouse gases in the air, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“While there is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002089/heres-what-all-electric-bay-area-restaurants-have-learned-from-ditching-gas\">debate in the restaurant industry\u003c/a> about whether all-electric cooking can meet the needs of chefs with specific cooking practices, it is safe to say that there is no tangible benefit to pilot lights,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Industry trade groups like the California Restaurant Association have opposed local governments’ attempts to establish electrification mandates. The group successfully challenged the city of Berkeley’s 2019 ban on natural gas hookups in new construction. The CRA has argued that restaurants would not be able to produce the same quality food with electric appliances as with gas ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1995336/heres-what-happened-when-scientists-tested-the-air-with-my-gas-stove-on\">previous studies\u003c/a> have established a link between cooking with gas appliances and increased indoor air pollution in residential settings, commercial kitchens have received much less attention, according to Rob Jackson, professor of earth system science at Stanford University, and a study co-author.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our study shows that burning gas in a restaurant kitchen is as suspect as burning it in our homes,” Jackson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘Death Valley in the summer’ \u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>Kitchens with gas-fired appliances were also substantially hotter than their electric counterparts. The study found that the temperature in a majority of gas kitchens, 68%, exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with four exceeding 122 degrees, according to measurements taken just outside a main vent hood. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s Death Valley in the summer,” Kashtan said. “It’s a very extreme environment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Two of the electric restaurants had the lowest peak temperatures recorded, although the study acknowledged this had “low statistical power” based on the small sample size. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The findings of the study, that using electric appliances instead of gas ones reduces exposure to heat and harmful vapors, “generally align with expectations,” according to Pistochini.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, holds a thermocouple logger which measures the temperature on ovens, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Pistochini noted there was a high variability in gas exposure, something she attributed to differences in cooking practices and the effectiveness of kitchen ventilation systems, “which reinforces the importance of ventilation in commercial kitchens,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study falls short of producing a “nationwide population-level exposure study,” Kashtan said, which would quantify the average heat and gas a commercial kitchen worker is exposed to across the country. He said that would require a much larger sample. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said areas of further study could focus on heat and gas exposure in dining rooms and places where waitstaff are, or in businesses or residences close to restaurants, such as in mixed-use buildings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The restaurant and foodservice industry provides 15.7 million jobs nationwide, according to the National Restaurant Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would never expect a software engineer or a teacher to put up with such a harsh workplace, but this is normal for the millions of people who go to work each day in commercial kitchens to make our meals,” said David Lehrer, communications director for the Center for Built Environment at the University of California, Berkeley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said this kind of work shouldn’t require “a bunch of scientists with fancy instruments.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It would be interesting to think about ways to require air quality monitoring in commercial kitchens,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens where workers cook with all-electric appliances, on the other hand, were much cooler and did not exceed any health guidelines for pollution exposure, the study found.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The study authors said the research is the first U.S. analysis to compare air quality and heat between gas-burning commercial kitchens and all-electric ones under real-world working conditions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens where workers cook with all-electric appliances, on the other hand, were much cooler and did not exceed any health guidelines for pollution exposure, the study found.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The study authors said the research is the first U.S. analysis to compare air quality and heat between gas-burning commercial kitchens and all-electric ones under real-world working conditions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“ In the majority of gas-fired kitchens we measured, the pollution levels exceeded health benchmarks for hours on end,” said Yannai Kashtan, air quality scientist at the nonprofit research institute PSE Healthy Energy, and the study’s first author.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-768x521.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-1536x1043.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Aeris analyzers, which measure methane, ethane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide and monoxide, in the air rest at the Jackson Lab at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001890\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Aeris analyzers, which measure methane, ethane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide and monoxide, in the air rest at the Jackson Lab at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The research was published Tuesday in the journal \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1748-9326\">\u003cem>Environmental Research Letters\u003c/em>\u003c/a> by scientists at Stanford University, New York University and PSE Healthy Energy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The research was published Tuesday in the journal \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1748-9326\">\u003cem>Environmental Research Letters\u003c/em>\u003c/a> by scientists at Stanford University, New York University and PSE Healthy Energy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kashtan’s team measured nitrogen dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane and air temperature in 21 gas kitchens, three propane kitchens and three all-electric kitchens across California, Pennsylvania and New York. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kashtan’s team measured nitrogen dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane and air temperature in 21 gas kitchens, three propane kitchens and three all-electric kitchens across California, Pennsylvania and New York. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sampled kitchens included both fine-dining and casual restaurants, catering facilities and institutions serving senior living communities and schools. The researchers measured kitchen air quality with specialized sensors, and tracked gas concentrations and temperature when the spaces were both in service and not. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sampled kitchens included both fine-dining and casual restaurants, catering facilities and institutions serving senior living communities and schools. The researchers measured kitchen air quality with specialized sensors, and tracked gas concentrations and temperature when the spaces were both in service and not. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In about 70% of the gas-fired restaurants sampled, nitrogen dioxide concentrations during work hours exceeded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and World Health Organization one-hour exposure guidelines, the study found. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In about 70% of the gas-fired restaurants sampled, nitrogen dioxide concentrations during work hours exceeded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and World Health Organization one-hour exposure guidelines, the study found. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Exposure to high concentrations of nitrogen dioxide can contribute to the development of asthma and increase susceptibility to respiratory infections, according to the EPA. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The study also found concentrations of carbon monoxide and benzene, a known carcinogen, in concentrations exceeding California’s 1-hour exposure guideline in three and five gas-fired kitchens, respectively. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The study also found concentrations of carbon monoxide and benzene, a known carcinogen, in concentrations exceeding California’s 1-hour exposure guideline in three and five gas-fired kitchens, respectively. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The three electric kitchens had levels of pollution “pretty close to background levels,” according to Kashtan. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The three electric kitchens had levels of pollution “pretty close to background levels,” according to Kashtan. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Not zero, but not much higher than you would be breathing just walking around,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Not zero, but not much higher than you would be breathing just walking around,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kashtan said he was surprised to find that roughly two-thirds of gas-powered kitchens measured had higher levels of pollution when they weren’t in service, something he attributed to ventilation fans not operating while the pilot lights of gas ranges continued to sputter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kashtan said he was surprised to find that roughly two-thirds of gas-powered kitchens measured had higher levels of pollution when they weren’t in service, something he attributed to ventilation fans not operating while the pilot lights of gas ranges continued to sputter.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That means cleaning crews or early arriving staff might be exposed to some of the highest levels of pollution, before the kitchen begins service and cooks turn on ventilation fans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That means cleaning crews or early arriving staff might be exposed to some of the highest levels of pollution, before the kitchen begins service and cooks turn on ventilation fans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“One concrete, actionable thing that anybody can do is turn on the ventilation the minute you walk into the kitchen in the morning to flush out everything that’s built up overnight, and that’s going to keep you from breathing in this soup of pollution,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“One concrete, actionable thing that anybody can do is turn on the ventilation the minute you walk into the kitchen in the morning to flush out everything that’s built up overnight, and that’s going to keep you from breathing in this soup of pollution,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Restaurants with pilot lights could switch to more modern equipment that uses electronic spark ignition to prevent overnight pollution, said Theresa Pistochini, associate director of the Western Cooling Efficiency Center, although she acknowledged that could be expensive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Restaurants with pilot lights could switch to more modern equipment that uses electronic spark ignition to prevent overnight pollution, said Theresa Pistochini, associate director of the Western Cooling Efficiency Center, although she acknowledged that could be expensive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001893\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, explains how her team uses the Aeris analyzers to measure greenhouse gases in the air, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001893\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, explains how her team uses the Aeris analyzers to measure greenhouse gases in the air, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“While there is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002089/heres-what-all-electric-bay-area-restaurants-have-learned-from-ditching-gas\">debate in the restaurant industry\u003c/a> about whether all-electric cooking can meet the needs of chefs with specific cooking practices, it is safe to say that there is no tangible benefit to pilot lights,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Industry trade groups like the California Restaurant Association have opposed local governments’ attempts to establish electrification mandates. The group successfully challenged the city of Berkeley’s 2019 ban on natural gas hookups in new construction. The CRA has argued that restaurants would not be able to produce the same quality food with electric appliances as with gas ones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Industry trade groups like the California Restaurant Association have opposed local governments’ attempts to establish electrification mandates. The group successfully challenged the city of Berkeley’s 2019 ban on natural gas hookups in new construction. The CRA has argued that restaurants would not be able to produce the same quality food with electric appliances as with gas ones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1995336/heres-what-happened-when-scientists-tested-the-air-with-my-gas-stove-on\">previous studies\u003c/a> have established a link between cooking with gas appliances and increased indoor air pollution in residential settings, commercial kitchens have received much less attention, according to Rob Jackson, professor of earth system science at Stanford University, and a study co-author.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1995336/heres-what-happened-when-scientists-tested-the-air-with-my-gas-stove-on\">previous studies\u003c/a> have established a link between cooking with gas appliances and increased indoor air pollution in residential settings, commercial kitchens have received much less attention, according to Rob Jackson, professor of earth system science at Stanford University, and a study co-author.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Our study shows that burning gas in a restaurant kitchen is as suspect as burning it in our homes,” Jackson said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Our study shows that burning gas in a restaurant kitchen is as suspect as burning it in our homes,” Jackson said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘Death Valley in the summer’ \u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>Kitchens with gas-fired appliances were also substantially hotter than their electric counterparts. The study found that the temperature in a majority of gas kitchens, 68%, exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with four exceeding 122 degrees, according to measurements taken just outside a main vent hood. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘Death Valley in the summer’ \u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>Kitchens with gas-fired appliances were also substantially hotter than their electric counterparts. The study found that the temperature in a majority of gas kitchens, 68%, exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with four exceeding 122 degrees, according to measurements taken just outside a main vent hood. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That’s Death Valley in the summer,” Kashtan said. “It’s a very extreme environment.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Two of the electric restaurants had the lowest peak temperatures recorded, although the study acknowledged this had “low statistical power” based on the small sample size. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Two of the electric restaurants had the lowest peak temperatures recorded, although the study acknowledged this had “low statistical power” based on the small sample size. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The findings of the study, that using electric appliances instead of gas ones reduces exposure to heat and harmful vapors, “generally align with expectations,” according to Pistochini.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, holds a thermocouple logger which measures the temperature on ovens, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001892\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, holds a thermocouple logger which measures the temperature on ovens, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pistochini noted there was a high variability in gas exposure, something she attributed to differences in cooking practices and the effectiveness of kitchen ventilation systems, “which reinforces the importance of ventilation in commercial kitchens,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pistochini noted there was a high variability in gas exposure, something she attributed to differences in cooking practices and the effectiveness of kitchen ventilation systems, “which reinforces the importance of ventilation in commercial kitchens,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The study falls short of producing a “nationwide population-level exposure study,” Kashtan said, which would quantify the average heat and gas a commercial kitchen worker is exposed to across the country. He said that would require a much larger sample. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The study falls short of producing a “nationwide population-level exposure study,” Kashtan said, which would quantify the average heat and gas a commercial kitchen worker is exposed to across the country. He said that would require a much larger sample. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kashtan said areas of further study could focus on heat and gas exposure in dining rooms and places where waitstaff are, or in businesses or residences close to restaurants, such as in mixed-use buildings.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Kashtan said areas of further study could focus on heat and gas exposure in dining rooms and places where waitstaff are, or in businesses or residences close to restaurants, such as in mixed-use buildings.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The restaurant and foodservice industry provides 15.7 million jobs nationwide, according to the National Restaurant Association.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "A new study from Bay Area researchers found that gas-powered kitchens can expose workers to dangerous levels of indoor air pollution and heat, while all-electric kitchens are cooler and cleaner. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens outfitted with gas-fired appliances can reach temperatures as hot as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/tag/california\">California’s\u003c/a> Death Valley in the summer and expose workers to harmful gases in excess of health-based guidelines, according to a first-of-its-kind \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ae9d96\">study\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Commercial kitchens where workers cook with all-electric appliances, on the other hand, were much cooler and did not exceed any health guidelines for pollution exposure, the study found.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>The study authors said the research is the first U.S. analysis to compare air quality and heat between gas-burning commercial kitchens and all-electric ones under real-world working conditions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“ In the majority of gas-fired kitchens we measured, the pollution levels exceeded health benchmarks for hours on end,” said Yannai Kashtan, air quality scientist at the nonprofit research institute PSE Healthy Energy, and the study’s first author.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1358\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001890\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-768x521.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-2-KQED-1536x1043.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Aeris analyzers, which measure methane, ethane, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide and monoxide, in the air rest at the Jackson Lab at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>The research was published Tuesday in the journal \u003ca href=\"https://iopscience.iop.org/journal/1748-9326\">\u003cem>Environmental Research Letters\u003c/em>\u003c/a> by scientists at Stanford University, New York University and PSE Healthy Energy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan’s team measured nitrogen dioxide, benzene, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, methane and air temperature in 21 gas kitchens, three propane kitchens and three all-electric kitchens across California, Pennsylvania and New York. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sampled kitchens included both fine-dining and casual restaurants, catering facilities and institutions serving senior living communities and schools. The researchers measured kitchen air quality with specialized sensors, and tracked gas concentrations and temperature when the spaces were both in service and not. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In about 70% of the gas-fired restaurants sampled, nitrogen dioxide concentrations during work hours exceeded the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and World Health Organization one-hour exposure guidelines, the study found. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Exposure to high concentrations of nitrogen dioxide can contribute to the development of asthma and increase susceptibility to respiratory infections, according to the EPA. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study also found concentrations of carbon monoxide and benzene, a known carcinogen, in concentrations exceeding California’s 1-hour exposure guideline in three and five gas-fired kitchens, respectively. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The three electric kitchens had levels of pollution “pretty close to background levels,” according to Kashtan. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Not zero, but not much higher than you would be breathing just walking around,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said he was surprised to find that roughly two-thirds of gas-powered kitchens measured had higher levels of pollution when they weren’t in service, something he attributed to ventilation fans not operating while the pilot lights of gas ranges continued to sputter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That means cleaning crews or early arriving staff might be exposed to some of the highest levels of pollution, before the kitchen begins service and cooks turn on ventilation fans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One concrete, actionable thing that anybody can do is turn on the ventilation the minute you walk into the kitchen in the morning to flush out everything that’s built up overnight, and that’s going to keep you from breathing in this soup of pollution,” Kashtan said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Restaurants with pilot lights could switch to more modern equipment that uses electronic spark ignition to prevent overnight pollution, said Theresa Pistochini, associate director of the Western Cooling Efficiency Center, although she acknowledged that could be expensive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001893\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-6-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, explains how her team uses the Aeris analyzers to measure greenhouse gases in the air, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“While there is \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002089/heres-what-all-electric-bay-area-restaurants-have-learned-from-ditching-gas\">debate in the restaurant industry\u003c/a> about whether all-electric cooking can meet the needs of chefs with specific cooking practices, it is safe to say that there is no tangible benefit to pilot lights,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Industry trade groups like the California Restaurant Association have opposed local governments’ attempts to establish electrification mandates. The group successfully challenged the city of Berkeley’s 2019 ban on natural gas hookups in new construction. The CRA has argued that restaurants would not be able to produce the same quality food with electric appliances as with gas ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1995336/heres-what-happened-when-scientists-tested-the-air-with-my-gas-stove-on\">previous studies\u003c/a> have established a link between cooking with gas appliances and increased indoor air pollution in residential settings, commercial kitchens have received much less attention, according to Rob Jackson, professor of earth system science at Stanford University, and a study co-author.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Our study shows that burning gas in a restaurant kitchen is as suspect as burning it in our homes,” Jackson said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>‘Death Valley in the summer’ \u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>Kitchens with gas-fired appliances were also substantially hotter than their electric counterparts. The study found that the temperature in a majority of gas kitchens, 68%, exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with four exceeding 122 degrees, according to measurements taken just outside a main vent hood. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That’s Death Valley in the summer,” Kashtan said. “It’s a very extreme environment.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Two of the electric restaurants had the lowest peak temperatures recorded, although the study acknowledged this had “low statistical power” based on the small sample size. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The findings of the study, that using electric appliances instead of gas ones reduces exposure to heat and harmful vapors, “generally align with expectations,” according to Pistochini.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2001892\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/08/20260827_ElectricKitchens_GC-4-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Samea Derrick, staff researcher at the Jackson Lab, holds a thermocouple logger which measures the temperature on ovens, at Stanford University on Aug. 27, 2026. (Gina Castro for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Pistochini noted there was a high variability in gas exposure, something she attributed to differences in cooking practices and the effectiveness of kitchen ventilation systems, “which reinforces the importance of ventilation in commercial kitchens,” Pistochini said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The study falls short of producing a “nationwide population-level exposure study,” Kashtan said, which would quantify the average heat and gas a commercial kitchen worker is exposed to across the country. He said that would require a much larger sample. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said areas of further study could focus on heat and gas exposure in dining rooms and places where waitstaff are, or in businesses or residences close to restaurants, such as in mixed-use buildings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The restaurant and foodservice industry provides 15.7 million jobs nationwide, according to the National Restaurant Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We would never expect a software engineer or a teacher to put up with such a harsh workplace, but this is normal for the millions of people who go to work each day in commercial kitchens to make our meals,” said David Lehrer, communications director for the Center for Built Environment at the University of California, Berkeley. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kashtan said this kind of work shouldn’t require “a bunch of scientists with fancy instruments.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It would be interesting to think about ways to require air quality monitoring in commercial kitchens,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine says. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In love, some of us hold tightly to our independence, while others crave closeness and reassurance. Attachment theory calls those tendencies avoidant or anxious — and we’ve long assumed they’re wired into us from an early age.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Columbia University psychiatrist Amir Levine, author of the bestseller “Attached,” says attachment is far more flexible than we realize. He says anyone can build a more secure life by surrounding themselves with a “village” of dependable relationships. “You can let your guard down, and you can explore more,” Levine says. “You can dare more.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk with Levine about his new book, “Secure,” and how the relationships we build can change the way we attach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine,\u003c/strong> associate professor of clinical psychiatry, Columbia University; author, \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are the attachment styles?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>There are four recognized attachment styles: anxious, avoidant, secure, and fearful avoidant. People who are anxious love a lot of closeness, but they need reassurance. They’re very sensitive to any potential disruption in that closeness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>People who are avoidant don’t like too much closeness. Independence comes first. And then, secure, they go with the flow. If you need a lot reassurance, they’ll give you reassurance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you need your distance, they’ll give you distance. They’re not gonna take it to heart, and they’re not going to get upset. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the fourth one, which is more rare, is a combination of people who want to be in a relationship and want closeness, but they’re also very sensitive to being potentially rebuffed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s like, I need people, but I’m also really scared of people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And the thesis of your book is that if you fall into one of these insecure categories, there’s actually hope for you once you create a secure village with people who are consistent and responsive and predictable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>We have a general attachment style, which really talks about our general approach and ideas about the world and relationships. And I find that even if your general attachment style is insecure, oftentimes people do report that they have at least one or two relationships that are secure, and we can learn to give more room and attention to those secure islands. Because oftentimes our brain tends to really focus on the insecure relationships in our lives because the secure people are boring. They always show up for us. They never bother us. They never impinge on our territory. They’re just there. We tend to think about them less. There’s less drama, but part of secure priming therapy and my coaching is to shift our attention and interact more in those secure relationships. It’s actually in those interactions that our brains start to become more secure. And the more we engulf ourselves in that secure village, the more secure we become, and change our brain to become secure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And it’s not just the interactions with our most crucial relationships; the seemingly insignificant minor interactions that we’re having all day long with the barista, with our boss, with a colleague. Those make a difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>I think when people come to therapy, they often think they have to talk about the difficult things that happened in childhood, or really big things that have happened to them. And they hardly ever think about what I’ve come to call these seemingly insignificant minor interactions — those little day-to-day interactions that we have with our significant other and people who are close to us, but also outside of that as a potential vehicle to change the brain. Even by saying hello to someone in the elevator. Or when I take Ubers, I used to be on my phone; don’t talk to me. But I started to really engage more and talk to Uber drivers. It’s been so rewarding. It’s fertilizer for your brain.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The neuroplasticity of your brain is actually changing in these moments where instead of picking up your phone and texting on the Uber, you have a good interaction. Talk about the biology of what’s happening as you build this village.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>By creating this highly connected life for ourselves through assembling a secure village, through those little interactions of acknowledging other people, having other people acknowledge you, you create all these new connections in the brain. Those connections mirror other connections in the mind that give the brain this message that you’re safe. You can let your guard down, and you can explore more. You can dare more. You can feel the self-esteem, the control over one’s life, all of that stuff really kicks into place. But it’s not just the psychological, it really affects us on a bodily level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Flesh out some of the findings that you illustrate in your book.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>The findings blew me away because consistent research findings have shown being more connected increases longevity. There’s one study that showed that when people feel greater connection, it increases survival by 50%. It increases brain matter. One study showed that when people reported feeling more connected to others, they were less likely to come down with a common cold. But also one study that came out this year found that insecure relationships really take a toll on our brain,and our biology because it showed signs of accelerated biological aging with every insecure relationship that we have in our life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What is the one thing that someone should change tomorrow?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>So I quote in the book, Simone Weil, such a provocative philosopher. She says, “Attention is the rarest, purest form of generosity.” Give consistent attention to others. Before writing \u003cem>Secure\u003c/em>, I never thought about texting back or being available to others as a form of generosity. But I think that is a form of generosity, that you’re showing up to people in a way that really is giving them something. Like that really is the highest form of generosity. I think that can be really helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir, thank you so much for inspiring me to look people in the eyes and take care of them at such a much deeper level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amir Levine: \u003c/strong>Thanks, I really enjoyed this conversation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amir Levine is an associate professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and author of \u003cem>Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life\u003c/em>. Inside Love is a new production of KQED, and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "east-bay-grief-counselors-strike-to-protest-layoffs-and-protect-the-soul-of-hospice",
"title": "East Bay Grief Counselors Strike to Protest Layoffs and ‘Protect the Soul of Hospice’",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>At 77, Judy Johnson has faced one of the unspoken responsibilities of being the youngest child in the family: shepherding her parents and her three older siblings \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/364223/beloved-san-francisco-zen-hospice-project-confronts-its-own-end\">through death\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With her last sister now in hospice care, and no one else left to lean on, Johnson found a lifeline in an emotional support group provided through her sister’s hospice provider, Hospice East Bay. But as the nonprofit’s parent organization prepares to lay off more than 20 staff, including social workers, chaplains and nurses, the support group will be disbanded, and Johnson will have to bear her sister’s death without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>A key element supporting my emotional well-being will be lost,” Johnson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit Hospice East Bay turned over management of its operations to a Florida-based parent company, Chapters Health System, last year, with the stated goal of expanding services. Instead, music therapy and a children’s grief program have been discontinued, and staff members are facing their second round of layoffs. Their union is staging a seven-day strike starting Monday to protest cuts to their own health benefits and demand a fair contract.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re going on strike to protect the soul of hospice,” said Judy Fleischman, a spiritual care counselor at Hospice East Bay. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>The jobs are being cut, and the caseloads will increase for those who remain. Let’s be clear, that is destroying our ability to care compassionately.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2002205\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hospice East Bay workers and supporters picket outside the organization’s Pleasant Hill headquarters on Oct. 5, 2026, during the first day of a seven-day strike over layoffs, health benefits and contract negotiations. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hospice began as a volunteer-led, grassroots movement in the 1970s, but in recent decades, it has ballooned into a massive industry. In California, \u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/aging/hospice-agencies-california-survival-gains-hospital-cms-fraud/\">94% of hospice providers\u003c/a> are now for-profit. Corporate consolidation has been widespread, leading to exploitation and even \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/04/hospice-fraud-california-license-medicare/\">fraud\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a small, independent nonprofit, Hospice East Bay struggled to compete in this environment. Staff say the financial strain of flat government reimbursement rates, coupled with declining patient numbers and money mismanagement, pushed previous executives to affiliate with \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/\">Chapters Health\u003c/a> last year. By centralizing business operations like human resources, IT, purchasing, and billing, local leaders believed caregivers could focus more on improving clinical services to patients and their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Together, we will be able to embrace the challenges of the changing healthcare landscape and create an environment where we have the opportunity to expand our programs and services, strengthening our role as a community leader in quality care,” said Chris Falley, executive director of Hospice East Bay, at the time the partnership agreement was \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/press-releases/hospice-east-bay-finalizes-agreement-to-join-chapters-health-system/\">finalized in October 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Andrew Molosky, president and CEO of Chapters Health, who earned \u003ca href=\"https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/592264957\">$2.2 million\u003c/a> in total compensation in 2024, visited Hospice East Bay headquarters in Pleasant Hill at the time and, according to staff, he told them he foresaw no cuts to clinical staff and no layoffs of senior leaders for at least a year. Six weeks later, two directors left, allegedly forced into retirement. And now staff are fighting back against the second round of clinical layoffs in a year, eliminating 30 positions total.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chapters Health did not comment on the layoff decision, but issued a statement from regional director, Tonya Lyons, who said they were “disappointed” by the union’s plan to strike. Care for current hospice patients will continue through the seven-day walkout, she said, with a contingency team of clinicians, administrators, and on-call physicians.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lyons said management is committed to reaching a contract with the union that “will lay the groundwork for long-term sustainability and ensure the ability to grow into the future.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Union members countered that the current job cuts will leave remaining staff stretched long after the strike is over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Social workers will have to care for 40 patients instead of 30. Chaplains will have 80 patients instead of 50. Two bereavement counselors will be left to help 1,200 patients and family members facing the loss of their loved ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The remaining chaplains will have to figure out who will not get spiritual care,” said Claire Eustace, a chaplain who will be laid off this month. “It’s one thing when people say they don’t want spiritual care support, but it’s quite a different thing when we decide that for them, because we just don’t have the time to visit them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2002210\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Claire Eustace leads hospice workers and supporters in a chant outside Hospice East Bay’s Pleasant Hill headquarters on Oct. 5, 2026, during the first day of a seven-day strike. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family support group that Judy Johnson attends is run by a social worker who is being laid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With their increased caseloads, the remaining social workers are unlikely to have time to continue it. Johnson wonders what might happen to the care her sister, Maxine, receives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s 88, suffering from Parkinson’s dementia, and bedbound from a recent fall. Johnson said the nurses and aides who visit are all highly professional, caring people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I look at how the home health aide bathes my sister, the gentleness with which she touches her body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She doesn’t just grab a limb and begin washing it. She said, ‘Miss Maxine, I’m gonna do your arm now, okay?’” Johnson said. If there are more and more patients to visit in a day, she worries, “my sister’s bath may not be so gentle and life-affirming.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California attorney general’s office reviewed the affiliation agreement between Hospice East Bay and Chapters Health last summer, and approved it on several conditions, including the creation of a quality advisory committee and the maintenance of programs historically funded by donations rather than government payments, like music therapy and bereavement services for families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to staff, such therapy programs have not been maintained, and with the latest round of cuts to the bereavement team, peer support groups and one-on-one counseling for loved ones left behind will be scaled back. It’s unclear what kind of recourse the attorney general’s office may have. It did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Social worker Julie Aronowitz, who is also being laid off, compared the staff cuts to a poem about violinist Yitzhak Perlman, who once performed with only three strings on his instrument after one of them broke. He adapted and played with “power and intensity” anyway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This poem talks about how we make music with what remains,” Aronowitz said. “But how do you make music with just one string left?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As a small, independent nonprofit, Hospice East Bay struggled to compete in this environment. Staff say the financial strain of flat government reimbursement rates, coupled with declining patient numbers and money mismanagement, pushed previous executives to affiliate with \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/\">Chapters Health\u003c/a> last year. By centralizing business operations like human resources, IT, purchasing, and billing, local leaders believed caregivers could focus more on improving clinical services to patients and their families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Together, we will be able to embrace the challenges of the changing healthcare landscape and create an environment where we have the opportunity to expand our programs and services, strengthening our role as a community leader in quality care,” said Chris Falley, executive director of Hospice East Bay, at the time the partnership agreement was \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/press-releases/hospice-east-bay-finalizes-agreement-to-join-chapters-health-system/\">finalized in October 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The remaining chaplains will have to figure out who will not get spiritual care,” said Claire Eustace, a chaplain who will be laid off this month. “It’s one thing when people say they don’t want spiritual care support, but it’s quite a different thing when we decide that for them, because we just don’t have the time to visit them.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The family support group that Judy Johnson attends is run by a social worker who is being laid off. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>With their increased caseloads, the remaining social workers are unlikely to have time to continue it. Johnson wonders what might happen to the care her sister, Maxine, receives. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She doesn’t just grab a limb and begin washing it. She said, ‘Miss Maxine, I’m gonna do your arm now, okay?’” Johnson said. If there are more and more patients to visit in a day, she worries, “my sister’s bath may not be so gentle and life-affirming.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The California attorney general’s office reviewed the affiliation agreement between Hospice East Bay and Chapters Health last summer, and approved it on several conditions, including the creation of a quality advisory committee and the maintenance of programs historically funded by donations rather than government payments, like music therapy and bereavement services for families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Staff at Hospice East Bay warn that services and care quality will deteriorate under the continued leadership of Florida-based Chapters Health Systems.",
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"title": "East Bay Grief Counselors Strike to Protest Layoffs and ‘Protect the Soul of Hospice’ | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>At 77, Judy Johnson has faced one of the unspoken responsibilities of being the youngest child in the family: shepherding her parents and her three older siblings \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/stateofhealth/364223/beloved-san-francisco-zen-hospice-project-confronts-its-own-end\">through death\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With her last sister now in hospice care, and no one else left to lean on, Johnson found a lifeline in an emotional support group provided through her sister’s hospice provider, Hospice East Bay. But as the nonprofit’s parent organization prepares to lay off more than 20 staff, including social workers, chaplains and nurses, the support group will be disbanded, and Johnson will have to bear her sister’s death without it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>A key element supporting my emotional well-being will be lost,” Johnson said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit Hospice East Bay turned over management of its operations to a Florida-based parent company, Chapters Health System, last year, with the stated goal of expanding services. Instead, music therapy and a children’s grief program have been discontinued, and staff members are facing their second round of layoffs. Their union is staging a seven-day strike starting Monday to protest cuts to their own health benefits and demand a fair contract.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We’re going on strike to protect the soul of hospice,” said Judy Fleischman, a spiritual care counselor at Hospice East Bay. \u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>The jobs are being cut, and the caseloads will increase for those who remain. Let’s be clear, that is destroying our ability to care compassionately.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2002205\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HOSPICESTRIKE-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Hospice East Bay workers and supporters picket outside the organization’s Pleasant Hill headquarters on Oct. 5, 2026, during the first day of a seven-day strike over layoffs, health benefits and contract negotiations. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hospice began as a volunteer-led, grassroots movement in the 1970s, but in recent decades, it has ballooned into a massive industry. In California, \u003ca href=\"https://kffhealthnews.org/aging/hospice-agencies-california-survival-gains-hospital-cms-fraud/\">94% of hospice providers\u003c/a> are now for-profit. Corporate consolidation has been widespread, leading to exploitation and even \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/04/hospice-fraud-california-license-medicare/\">fraud\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a small, independent nonprofit, Hospice East Bay struggled to compete in this environment. Staff say the financial strain of flat government reimbursement rates, coupled with declining patient numbers and money mismanagement, pushed previous executives to affiliate with \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/\">Chapters Health\u003c/a> last year. By centralizing business operations like human resources, IT, purchasing, and billing, local leaders believed caregivers could focus more on improving clinical services to patients and their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Together, we will be able to embrace the challenges of the changing healthcare landscape and create an environment where we have the opportunity to expand our programs and services, strengthening our role as a community leader in quality care,” said Chris Falley, executive director of Hospice East Bay, at the time the partnership agreement was \u003ca href=\"https://www.chaptershealth.org/press-releases/hospice-east-bay-finalizes-agreement-to-join-chapters-health-system/\">finalized in October 2025\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Andrew Molosky, president and CEO of Chapters Health, who earned \u003ca href=\"https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/592264957\">$2.2 million\u003c/a> in total compensation in 2024, visited Hospice East Bay headquarters in Pleasant Hill at the time and, according to staff, he told them he foresaw no cuts to clinical staff and no layoffs of senior leaders for at least a year. Six weeks later, two directors left, allegedly forced into retirement. And now staff are fighting back against the second round of clinical layoffs in a year, eliminating 30 positions total.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chapters Health did not comment on the layoff decision, but issued a statement from regional director, Tonya Lyons, who said they were “disappointed” by the union’s plan to strike. Care for current hospice patients will continue through the seven-day walkout, she said, with a contingency team of clinicians, administrators, and on-call physicians.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lyons said management is committed to reaching a contract with the union that “will lay the groundwork for long-term sustainability and ensure the ability to grow into the future.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Union members countered that the current job cuts will leave remaining staff stretched long after the strike is over. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Social workers will have to care for 40 patients instead of 30. Chaplains will have 80 patients instead of 50. Two bereavement counselors will be left to help 1,200 patients and family members facing the loss of their loved ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The remaining chaplains will have to figure out who will not get spiritual care,” said Claire Eustace, a chaplain who will be laid off this month. “It’s one thing when people say they don’t want spiritual care support, but it’s quite a different thing when we decide that for them, because we just don’t have the time to visit them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-2002210\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-768x512.jpg 768w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2026/10/261005-HospiceStrike-18-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Claire Eustace leads hospice workers and supporters in a chant outside Hospice East Bay’s Pleasant Hill headquarters on Oct. 5, 2026, during the first day of a seven-day strike. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The family support group that Judy Johnson attends is run by a social worker who is being laid off. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With their increased caseloads, the remaining social workers are unlikely to have time to continue it. Johnson wonders what might happen to the care her sister, Maxine, receives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She’s 88, suffering from Parkinson’s dementia, and bedbound from a recent fall. Johnson said the nurses and aides who visit are all highly professional, caring people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I look at how the home health aide bathes my sister, the gentleness with which she touches her body. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She doesn’t just grab a limb and begin washing it. She said, ‘Miss Maxine, I’m gonna do your arm now, okay?’” Johnson said. If there are more and more patients to visit in a day, she worries, “my sister’s bath may not be so gentle and life-affirming.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The California attorney general’s office reviewed the affiliation agreement between Hospice East Bay and Chapters Health last summer, and approved it on several conditions, including the creation of a quality advisory committee and the maintenance of programs historically funded by donations rather than government payments, like music therapy and bereavement services for families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to staff, such therapy programs have not been maintained, and with the latest round of cuts to the bereavement team, peer support groups and one-on-one counseling for loved ones left behind will be scaled back. It’s unclear what kind of recourse the attorney general’s office may have. It did not respond to requests for comment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Social worker Julie Aronowitz, who is also being laid off, compared the staff cuts to a poem about violinist Yitzhak Perlman, who once performed with only three strings on his instrument after one of them broke. He adapted and played with “power and intensity” anyway.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“This poem talks about how we make music with what remains,” Aronowitz said. “But how do you make music with just one string left?”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-is-it-so-hard-to-believe-were-worthy",
"title": "Why Is It So Hard to Believe We’re Worthy?",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Psychologist Marisa Franco wants us to stop trying so hard to feel worthy. Her new book explores what self-esteem actually looks like, especially when we feel hurt or insecure.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Before you call that fight with your partner a red flag, listen to what the argument is telling you. Kim Polinder, author of the new book “Why We Fight,” said conflict can expose what matters — and even bring couples closer.\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Butterflies, intoxicating highs and crushing lows can feel like signs that you’ve found the one. But according to neuroscientist Tom Bellamy intense chemistry doesn’t equal the right partner.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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},
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"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"soldout": {
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"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
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"tagline": "True-life supernatural stories",
"info": "",
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