KQED’s health coverage spans daily news to deep-dive stories from the Bay Area and beyond. We cover policy, health trends and the issues that show up in your life and at your doctor appointments.
Why Is It So Hard to Believe We’re Worthy?
Want to Stay Together? Learn to Fight
Is It Love — or Limerence? Why Intense Chemistry Can Be Misleading
Are Chatbots Harming Our Relationships?
What Is Love?
Anti-Abortion Advocates Say It’s Possible to ‘Reverse’ an Abortion. California Wants Them to Stop
Monterey Officials Lift Shelter-in-Place Order, End Road Closure Prompted by Power Plant Fire
California Regulators Unveil Plan to Ban New Quartz Countertops Amid Rising Worker Deaths
California Could Join Handful of States That Cover Cancer Hair-Loss Treatment
This Bay Area Immigrant Rights Organization Is Helping Filipino Caregivers Care for Themselves
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Psychologist Marisa Franco wants us to stop trying so hard to feel worthy. Her new book explores what self-esteem actually looks like, especially when we feel hurt or insecure.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Why can a compliment make us anxious? Why do we sometimes expect rejection even when a relationship is going well? Psychologist Marisa Franco says the negative stories we harbor about ourselves can be stubborn, leading us to look for evidence that confirms our deepest fears about who we are.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am,” Franco says, describing how low self-esteem can make acceptance itself feel threatening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Franco about her new book, “Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment,” and how we can question old beliefs about ourselves, respond differently to difficult emotions and build a more secure sense of self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco,\u003c/strong> psychologist; author, \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment\u003c/em>.\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you define worth?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I define worth as treating your internal world as if it matters. Treating all of your feelings as if they’re worthy of your attention and your compassion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You argue that once we come to believe something about ourselves, “I’m not lovable, or people leave, or I don’t matter,” we actually start looking for evidence that that is true. How does that work? How are we shaping our reality by those beliefs?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Anyone who’s tried to improve their self-esteem can vouch that it’s extremely difficult. And the reason why is because researchers call self-esteem a theory of self. And if it’s low, you think that other people will reject you and harm will come. If it’s high, you think that people will accept you and good things will happen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, what happens when something happens that’s counter to your theory? If people with low self-esteem get positive feedback from other people, their blood pressure rises. They actually get sicker months later. And so what’s happening is, if you have this theory of self, information that’s counter to that theory does not elevate the self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It makes you feel like you’re in some chaotic, unpredictable world, and it’s only a matter of time until that harm comes again; you’re sort of waiting for the shoe to drop. So there’s anxiety. They like me now, but it’s only a matter of time. They’re gonna figure out who I really am. It’s almost better if my sense of self is verified, if I get negative feedback about my sense of self, because at least that’s familiar. And in some ways, familiarity regulates us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: How do fixed ideas about ourselves — ‘I’m autonomous, I’m independent, I’m a loner’ — get in the way? \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>So if you think about treating your internal world as if it matters, treating every feeling as if that matters, often you’re gonna have feelings that are counter to your sense of identity. Maybe someone really masculine feels weak. And we might have this top-down approach where we try to suppress those parts of ourselves, push them away because they don’t match our identity. But really, I’m pushing for a version of security that’s about welcoming whoever you are and wherever you’re at. And in the present, I am always evolving as a person. I’m having new feelings, I’m having new experiences, I’m having new emotions. Having a sense of self-worth is about being open to all of those emotions because your regard for yourself does not depend on you being the self-made person, or being the most attractive person in the room. Your regard for yourself is there no matter what, even as your identity changes over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If we have some really rigid ideas about ourselves, you talk about how psychedelics might be one way to kind of lose ourselves to find ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, exactly. There was someone I interviewed for the book named Esme, and she tried to make a friend in eighth grade, and it didn’t go well. She would call this friend every day, and eventually that friend was like, “Why are you calling me? We’re not friends.” Heartbreaking. That memory shaped Esme’s ability to make friends for many decades later. So I asked her, what would she have liked to say to her younger self at the time? And I could see her being so half-hearted. She was like, “I would like to tell myself, it’s just a blip. People are going to accept you, but I don’t really know.” What psychedelics do is they deactivate the seed of the self in the brain. You are now able to go back to a memory almost as if you’re a third party. It deactivates the amygdala as well. So that memory is far less threatening. Esme would potentially be able to go back to that memory and see, it’s so beautiful that you put yourself out there. Not every time will that go right. But that doesn’t mean that something’s fundamentally wrong with you — that is just part of the journey of connecting with people. And she might actually be able to internalize that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say we should aim to be secure-ish. What exactly does secure-ish mean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I feel like what I see in the Zeitgeist around attachment is: if you shame yourself enough for your insecurities, they’ll go away, right? And fundamentally, I’ve seen so many people just like me trying to act or cosplay or perform security, even when they’re not feeling secure within. And what happens when I see myself as secure and I’m anxious in a relationship? Or I feel that mysterious urge to withdraw. Or I feel overwhelmed or overstimulated in the relationship. I’m not able to fully acknowledge my anxious or my avoidant reactions. Instead, I’m trying to be secure. That’s the narrative I’m going with, and I’m going to ignore those other parts of myself. But really, I am anxious. That’s okay. What does that part of me need?. Turning towards that part of you ultimately leads to a greater sense of security. I think we can achieve that more. To be human is to deal with insecurities, messy feelings, things you don’t want to feel, and all of that is okay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is that when these feelings come up — whether it’s an anxious response, an avoidant response, or that negative critical voice in your head — we should actually be in conversation with that part of ourselves in a much kinder way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Skyler Jackson said, “I wanted to know what small things are actually big for me.” And that, to me, had often been a place of shame — if I had a big reaction to something small. But with him, I heard this sort of openness, this curiosity about the self, this welcoming of my internal experience that very much matched the sort of things that I heard suggested by Carl Rogers, a famous psychologist, who was like: Let your aggressive impulses, your anti-social impulses — you have to be able to acknowledge them, because you can only change yourself when you deeply accept those parts of you. And I think a lot of us have the misconception — and this is fair — that if I acknowledge those feelings, it’s gonna make them worse, right? Labeling your feelings, tolerating what they feel like in your body, accepting them — those are the things that finally make our feelings calm down. So we don’t have to be afraid of our internal world and our internal selves. And it’s okay if you have feelings that you wish weren’t there. In fact, you are having a very human experience. That is what it means to be a human being, rather than a sign that you’re defective or wrong or have something to be ashamed of.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you want readers to feel at the end of your book that they can say, I am worthy? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>I am worthy, that sounds like you’re still evaluating yourself. The point of this book is not to say I am worthy; it is to say, I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you so much, Marisa. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marisa Franco: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Marisa Franco’s new book is \u003cem>Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Brian Douglas. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Before you call that fight with your partner a red flag, listen to what the argument is telling you. Kim Polinder, author of the new book “Why We Fight,” said conflict can expose what matters — and even bring couples closer.\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>If you’re struggling in a relationship, the last thing you probably want to do is fight more. It’s often easier to step around tricky conversations and chase some peace. But according to relationship coach Kim Polinder, avoiding conflict does not make a relationship safer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight,” Polinder says. “And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now, that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We talk to Polinder about how to get to the root of the conflicts that never seem to go away, how to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger and, once you’re in the thick of an argument, how to fight with grace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder,\u003c/strong> relationship coach; author, \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You trace your own relationship to conflict all the way back to the very beginning of your life. You were abandoned as an infant in rural South Korea. How do you think that beginning shows up in the way that you love today or, potentially, the way you fight?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard and read articles on how pivotal that first year is for a baby. I can only surmise that my classic abandonment wounds were rooted in being separated from my birth mother and then again being separated from my foster mother, which, based on the paperwork, I had grown quite attached to. So how I experience abandonment wounds as an adult is that I’m quick to perceive the potential of it at every turn. I like to call it a lens at how I looked at people, myself, love, relationships and attachment through. It kind of ran my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Meaning that you would pull back in fear that you will be abandoned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. So any sort of tension, friction. “Oh, I hurt your feelings. That means that you may reject me at some point. I’ll just leave you before you leave me,” was a common outcome. Not really showing up authentically in a vulnerable way because that would be too scary. What if they hurt my feelings? It was a very arms-length way of relating to people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But I imagine the way we fight is also potentially shaped by the person across from you. I know for me, I’ve gotten very different feedback based on who I’m fighting with. I had one partner who told me that I had an anger management problem because I didn’t show enough emotion. I had another partner who told me that I go completely nuclear. I don’t think I go completely nuclear or that I repress, but probably the truth is somewhere in between those. So, the other person does play a role in terms of how the fight plays out as well, correct?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Yes. What we get in childhood and the family of origin is a seeding, a foundation. We get our values modeled for us — how to react, how to communicate, how to love and be loved. That sets us up for going into adulthood and having our philosophy of love and attachment either reinforced or opposed. So when you talk about how you got different feedback from different people, getting back to that lens, one person who’s perhaps hyper-vigilant might think, “Are they upset? Well, I saw you furrow your eyebrows, and your jaw is tense; why aren’t you expressing?” They may have grown up in an environment where they had to be hyper-vigilant and look out for potential danger. And the other person may have grown up in an environment where it was very calm and regulated on the outside, but then you being very expressive could have been very overwhelming for them because they weren’t used to it. So again, we all bring a lens to how we view other people and ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>So you’re saying these old roots are potentially going to play out in how we’re arguing over the dishes or our parenting style, or they’re going to come out in these fights that we have every day. But help me make the leap from these roots from when we were very young to the fights that we’re having on a daily basis with our partners. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love that you use the dishes as an example. It’s such a common fight. I had one couple in particular where he took a picture of how the dishwasher should be loaded according to his wife and pasted it on the fridge because it was such a repeated argument. Now, while I love the dedication to solutions, if we look at what her core wound was, it was, “You never listen to me. My feelings don’t matter. When I tell you it’s really important to me that the dishwasher gets loaded in this way and here’s the reasoning behind it and you just discard it and you do your own thing, I feel invisible.” That could be traced back to a childhood where she wasn’t given emotional attunement. If she was upset, no one tuned in. If she was expressive, she was criticized and stomped down. So that perception of, “This is how people treat me, this is people see me,” is being reinforced by her husband not paying attention to her and listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How do you know that? How can she know that her core wound is that no one’s listening to me? She may not have that awareness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I love pattern recognition. I spent over 20 years in IT engineering, and I love a very structured, systematic approach. It’s possible to look at our personal experiences and conflict with a systematic lens. So when she looks at her life, I would argue for anyone who’s having similar experiences of, “I feel like no one listens to me. I feel I’m always invisible. Everyone’s feelings always trump mine. People always take up the emotional air in the room, but there’s no room for me,” you can probably trace that back to different scenarios, not just your spouse, it could be a coworker, family member, best friend, group situations. But if you notice that there’s a similar pattern being played out, now you’ve got something to work with. OK, yes, my spouse is annoying when they don’t load the dishwasher properly, but there could be something in me. Now we’re getting into the lens. There could be a wound that was created many years ago that I’m not accounting for. That knowledge and awareness is half the battle. Once I can see that my abandonment wound is creating this distance, that I’m not inherently a distant and cold-hearted and unfeeling person like I was accused of in my 20s and 30s, and it’s actually me being protective, now I can have more compassion for myself. Now I can sit with myself for where I’m at. Now I can start to take a look at different behaviors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You hear couples all the time say, “We just need to learn how to communicate better.” You can, I assume, learn how to communicate better, but if you don’t know these core underlying roots, maybe nothing will change, even if your language gets better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>People generally exist at a very global level of, “We need better communication. I want to feel closer to you. I want to be a bigger priority to you.” It’s a good start, but it’s not helpful to a person as far as what that looks like. You can say I want better communication and to you that means when we’re fighting you don’t storm out, you don’t start telling me that, “Oh, here are your mother issues coming out again, ”you don’t tell me to go to therapy whenever we argue. I may say, better communication to me is let’s take a 15-minute break so I can figure out how I’m feeling, what I’m thinking, and then let’s come back together. So when you say better communication, it’s really important to ask yourself, what does that look like?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say that you’re getting into it. A fight is beginning to kick off. You know your core wounds, you’ve navigated that, and you’re understanding your inner psychology so you know what could come up. But you know you’re right, and you want to prove your point. What do you do then? How do I slow down enough? What is your advice to someone at the beginning of a fight? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>It’s important to recognize the neurobiology of a trigger, and to know that if you’re in the heat of the moment and you hear yourself yelling and you’re not normally a very expressive person, or you’re calling your partner names, or just going to the place where, if you’ve been with your partner long enough, everyone knows the place, the button to push that will send your partner from zero to 60 in two seconds. And when we feel cornered, we will push that button. Things happen in the heat of the moment where we show our messy true selves. But if we understand that in the heat of the moment, my prefrontal cortex has gone offline and I’m in fight-or-flight, or freeze or fawn. I can lower my expectations and go to basic de-escalation skills. “Hey, I think we’re getting a little heated. Maybe we should take a break. Hey, I think that we just went to a really ugly place. Let’s take five minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there language that might land better when you’re taking that break? Because I imagine that some people would feel abandoned. What is the right language to say? And then when you do take that break, what should you do in that five minutes? How should you try to re-regulate yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Communication on the front end of the break is everything. I find that there is a dynamic that plays out in most couples. During high conflict, one person needs space to regulate because they feel flooded, they actually have difficulty talking, and they need that space to regulate. The other person needs engagement to feel safe, to feel connected, to feel OK. Taking space, to that person who needs more engagement, they’re going to be triggered into feelings of abandonment and rejection. What you can do on the front end is say, “I feel flooded; this is overwhelming. I just need 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I want to talk about this. I know this is important. I will come back to this.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What should you do during that time so you come back in a different place?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is good old somatic exercises like box breathing, which is slow breaths in, hold it, slow breaths out, hold it, doing that repeatedly. It is bilateral stimulation, like walking, rubbing your arms in a soothing manner. It could be grounding techniques, splashing cold water on your face, shaking the body to shake some of that energy out. It could be progressive muscle relaxation techniques where you tense one area of the body, relax it, tense another area of body, relax it. All of these somatic exercises, the reason people give up on them is they think, OK, I tried this breathing thing, and I was still pissed off. It just didn’t help. The exercises are not meant to make you feel peaceful and zen. It’s to address what’s happening viscerally in the body and to help your nervous system regulate just a bit, just to take the edge off. There are also counting exercises you can do. I want to count all the brown things in the room. I want to count things I can see. I want to count things I hear.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say you’ve gone around the block, you’ve rubbed your arms, you’re feeling more relaxed, you’ve taken a deep breath. How should you then, as you say, fight clean once you come back into the room?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>This is where the flow chart can come in handy. The first step is to ask, “Is now a good time?” A lot of times, people will unload on their partner when the feeling is the strongest, and that may not be such a great time. They could have just come out of a big work meeting or work day. They may have just put the kids to sleep and are just tired and wasted. If it’s not a good time, say, “OK, I can respect that. What would be a good time? I think we really do need to still talk about it.” “OK, how about in three hours? How about tomorrow morning? We generally do better in the mornings.” Then once you establish the good time to talk, it’s coming in with a controlled opening. I love the Gottmans’ research, John and Julie Gottman. They are big in the couple’s space. A lot of their research still holds true today where in the first three minutes of a conversation, how you open it, how you come in and address the topic, over 60% of the time, it will determine whether you have a chance at a positive outcome or not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Let’s say both parties are feeling heard, OK, I’ve got you, you’ve got me, we’re getting each other here. What does a good solution look like? What separates a meaningful agreement or solution from, “OK, fine, I’ll just try harder next time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>When it comes to solutions, you have to know what you need. I can’t tell you how many times I will ask a person, “What do you need in this situation? Put it up on a silver platter. What do you want? What do you need?” Often, people will look at me and say, “I don’t know, actually. I just know I’m upset.” And so, being able to put the ball back in that person’s court and ask yourself if there’s anything they could say or do that would help. What is proof that you feel understood? What would be proof that you’re a priority? Start working around that. I like putting proof on the person who’s bringing up the complaint. What would be proof that it’s happening? We’re getting into accountability and identifying needs, which is very important.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing as a thread through all of this, the ultimate goal doesn’t seem to be to stop fighting, but to slow down as we’re moving through the fight, to be able to identify this core wound, to able to stop and take stock and maybe take a walk to come back in to hear the other person’s perspective and to slow down the escalation. At the end of the day, if you’re able to do all that slowing down, will you fight less? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>I hope not. I’m very suspicious of couples who do not fight. When you have two people who, just by just proximity alone, you’re around a person so much, what are the chances you’re not going to have a bad day or have a different opinion or that they’re going to poke at some wound from long ago? Just by the amount of time you spend with someone, they are going to upset you. And if there’s no fighting, that tells me that someone is probably suppressing their feelings. Now that sounds noble, but given enough time, that suppression will turn into resentment, and that will take a relationship down. Learning to express needs and learning to protest when I lived a life of just being submissive and pleasing people and not taking up any air in the room, it’s still to this day very uncomfortable for me to express needs and be needy and fight for what I need and be an advocate for myself. But I push through it because I know that it will lead to a better place. That’s the only way that I can get closer to other people is to show them the actual real me and what I’m needing and what upsets me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But there are, I imagine, some conflicts that are unresolvable. How do you know when a conflict is unresolvable?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Generally, when we’re talking about unresolvable conflicts, we’re talking about a difference in values, things that are important. Things like, are we having kids or not? Things like you belittle me, you call me names. This is actually emotionally or verbally abusive. Values of how you spend your time. These are lifestyle changes. So when it comes to incompatibility, have you brought up the concern? Have you brought the issue? If they don’t agree that that’s an issue, they will do nothing to change it. So these are the kind of questions that people have unresolved fight after unresolved fight. You might have to break up. There’s no shame in acknowledging that we are not a good match at a values level.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If there’s one thing you want to leave listeners with to do tomorrow in the relationship to make fighting or conflict easier, what is it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>There’s a deep value in getting triggered. It holds so much information about the times that you get the most upset. Instead of spending so much time trying not to get upset and telling yourself, “Why am I such an angry person? Why am I an anxious person?” Instead, focus more on getting curious. Why did I get so triggered? Why did I have such a disproportionate response to that situation? This is confusing to me. It’s an opportunity to really go deep on what still is driving that lens. The biggest thing that I can leave with people is: what kind of person do you want to be? If you want to shift out of a certain behavior or a certain way that you’re showing up in the world, get curious first versus judgmental. There’s a lot of information into why you get upset. I would argue that there’s probably a really good reason why you get so upset. There are really good reasons why you have that specific need. If you can come with more compassionate curiosity to that issue, it will create a better environment for you to then shift into something different.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Stay curious, folks. Thank you so much, Kim. Kim, that was a really lovely conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kim Polinder: \u003c/strong>Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Kim Polinder is a relationship coach and author of \u003cem>Why We Fight: A Transformative Road Map to Healing Conflict in Any Relationship.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. Our engineer is Christopher Beale. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you for listening. \u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Butterflies, intoxicating highs and crushing lows can feel like signs that you’ve found the one. But, according to Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy intense chemistry doesn’t equal the right partner.",
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"title": "Is It Love — or Limerence? Why Intense Chemistry Can Be Misleading | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\">\u003cem>Inside Love\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The butterflies. The constant thoughts. The rush when the object of your affection texts – and the crash when they don’t. We often read that intensity as a sign we’re falling deeply in love. Neuroscientist Tom Bellamy says it may be something else: limerence, an obsessive form of romantic infatuation that feels and behaves like an addiction. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You’re just completely captured by it,” he says. We talk to Bellamy about what happens in the brain when desire becomes fixation and why the people who give us the biggest romantic highs aren’t necessarily the best partners for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy,\u003c/strong> neuroscientist; author, \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>When you fall in love, it’s always intoxicating. But when that person is really all you can think about — you can’t concentrate, you’ve fallen into a black hole of attraction — that’s limerence, an intense, romantic craving, almost like an addiction. Tom, what would you add to that definition? How would you flesh that out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I generally describe limerence as an altered mental state. It really feels like your brain is operating in a different mode. It feels like you have literally been transformed by the experience of becoming infatuated with another person. It’s a very intense infatuation. It goes beyond the happy vibes and the butterflies and the excitement of early love into a complete mental capture. It takes over your internal world. It’s largely about the intensity of the experience and the fact that it can become involuntary. It feels like you’re not able to regulate your own emotions and own mood to the same extent that you used to be able to. And it generally takes a bit of time for that to happen. So early on, limerence just feels wonderful, euphoric, exhilarating, intoxicating. Limerence is such a powerful natural high that it can become addictive. You can go into that state where it feels much more obsessive, and it feels like your mood is dependent on the behavior of the other person, the person that you’re infatuated with. You have these big swings of mood from exhilaration and excitement down to depression and anxiety if it seems like there might be barriers in the way of that love connection that you want so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And those highs and lows are based on the uncertainty of whether or not the incredible feeling is returned or the love could be returned, the infatuation is returned?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Uncertainty is a really big driver in limerence. If you get into that state of excitement and exhilaration in the early stage of love and the other person is romantically attracted to you as well, and a relationship starts, it will be wonderful. You’ll get all the fireworks, but it won’t necessarily progress into a state that feels much more addictive and much more obsessive, because you have secured what you hoped for. It’s not inevitable that limerence will progress into this slightly unregulated psychological state. But if there is uncertainty, that can be a major factor for driving it forward. That uncertainty could either come from your own indecision that you don’t feel confident about declaring yourself or you don’t feel confident starting a relationship and so you hesitate. Or it could be the other person provides the uncertainty that you’re not sure how they feel about you, maybe they give you mixed messages and sometimes they seem very interested but then other times they seem cold and you’re not quite sure what’s going on or where you are or how serious it is. Those sorts of things can push the feelings from that exhilaration and the euphoria into a fixation and a dependency where they become a source of obsession for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And you’ve experienced this; what did it look like? What did it feel like? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>About half the population experiences limerence at some point in their life. For many of us, you just assume that this is what love feels like — the early phase of love just feels like this completely overwhelming, infatuated state where they seem wonderful and everything about them is perfect and you could never imagine that you could meet somebody that good, that wonderful, that exhilarating. There’s plenty of poetry and films and literature in the world that describe that agony of ecstasy, that strange mixture of exhilaration and anxiety. So I just assumed the first time that I experienced this state, well, that’s just love. That’s just what love feels like.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But I really first confronted the idea of limerence and the reality of it being an altered mental state when I developed it despite being in a happy marriage. I developed limerence for somebody else outside of marriage. In my case, it was a coworker. I did not want to form a romantic relationship with her, and she wasn’t available to have a romantic relationship anyway. It was the first time in my life that I experienced that emotional overwhelm without wanting it to go anywhere, without it feeling like the beginning of something meaningful. I then had to confront the fact that despite being happily in love and in a stable relationship that was very positive, that I was infatuated with somebody else. Because I am a neuroscientist, I looked at it from the perspective of, well, what’s going on in the brain to cause this? I could recognize that the driving force and the underlying experience and the symptoms of limerence could be explained in the context of behavioral addiction, that a natural reward can be so powerful that it can become addictive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Give us a layman’s version of what is going on in the brain. What’s happening there in the addiction pathways?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Obviously, falling in love is a wonderful thing; it’s a very positive thing, it’s a very beneficial thing. So, it’s not a surprise that we have circuits within the brain that are tuned to recognizing desirable mates who we could potentially form a romantic pair bond with. And that thrill of excitement and exhilaration is hugely rewarding. It’s also hugely arousing so you get all the butterflies in the tummy and the racing hearts and all the symptoms of arousal. There’s an erotic component as well. So you’ve got all the sexual arousal elements too. And then there’s a third element to limerence within the brain, which is about oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone that helps us connect rewards to social cues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp> So what happens in the initiation of limerence is you get a powerful reward, and you learn the connection to that reward, and so you seek the reward, and you get a very powerful motivation to want that person. Oxytocin and dopamine in the reward system working together can imprint that person as the primary source of reward in the world. They become what could be called a super normal stimulus. They become an extremely powerful source of rewards. That wanting drive driven by dopamine gets stronger and stronger, and your ability to self-regulate because of feedback from the executive parts of the brain, so the prefrontal cortex, gets weaker and weaker. You end up in a state where you feel that you’ve got a desire that’s just insatiable, and you can’t resist it, and you don’t even want to resist it. You’re just completely captured by it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Unwittingly, you’ve trained your brain into fixating on one particular person, and you’ve weakened your willpower and your ability to self-regulate and think, “No, this isn’t good for me. This is destructive. This is disrupting my life. This is taking me away from the other things that I care about, and I can’t concentrate on other things.” You get all of those symptoms that are like an addiction. You have intrusive thoughts that are hard to control, and you feel like you’re helplessly caught in a mental trap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>How did you break out of that addictive state? Once you had this knowledge and you knew what was going on, how did you break it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Essentially, it’s trying to undo that training, try to reverse it. You have to try and reduce the reward that’s associated with the other person. You try to wake up your executive brain and get it to pay attention a little bit and break the habit loops and recognize, “Oh, that was a limerent instinct; I need to pay attention to this. I shouldn’t just follow it on autopilot as a habit.” The other thing, if you think of it in terms of an addiction, is you really need to break contact with the person that you’re infatuated with. You need to cut off the supply so that you’re not constantly reinforcing that attachment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And if you don’t do that, it seems like this could lead to some pretty bad antisocial behaviors, stalking, that kind of thing. Does it lead people to do things they wouldn’t normally do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Not really. Limerence is a runaway reward system. About half of us have it; about half of us experience it. It doesn’t predict for other antisocial behaviors. The people that stalk have other problems, other issues, often other psychiatric problems. The motivations for stalking are often a sense of entitlement to the attention of the other person, a desire to hurt the other person. Stalking is linked to ex-partners and that they feel, “I’ve been hurt so I should be allowed to hurt you.” The psychology and psychiatry behind stalking is quite distinct from limerence. I could imagine if somebody did have a predisposition to stalking behavior and they became limerent, then yes, their limerant objects, the person that they’re infatuated with, could become the target for the stalking. But I think if people are going through limerence but are otherwise psychologically healthy, there’s no reason to think that they would violate boundaries or do any of this almost criminal behavior.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me think that maybe a lot of people who are in Love AA, that might be room full of people who are more inclined toward limerence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yes, because it’s so intoxicating and because it is addictive, you can see people who chase limerence, but when the limerence does begin to resolve, they immediately look for somebody new. They’re chasing that thrill of early love, and they are not wanting it to mature into a stable attachment-style bond. They just want the thrills. They want the tingles, the excitement, the fireworks. And so, yes, you can get a situation where people almost become addicted to limerence, that they’re chasing the limerent thrills again and again. And the healthy, happy love of a stable attachment isn’t what appeals to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>As one who has had both, you’ve had the long-term marriage, you’ve had these limerent states, you’ve stayed with your wife, how would you sell it to someone who’s on that addictive high that it’s worth sticking around for the love bonding and the lower intoxicating state down the road in a relationship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>I’m an advocate for stable, healthy, long-term love. It’s very different in character from limerence. One simple way of separating it would be the difference between pleasure and happiness. Pleasure is excitement, thrills, momentary, and it passes. Happiness is a longer-term state of contentedness. Limerence doesn’t last. Even if you get reciprocation and you form a relationship, and you get all those thrills, it’s probably going to last maybe a couple of years, and then it will fade. You are going to get caught in this cycle of constantly chasing it. One of the very common mistakes that people who experience limerence make about love is that they think the strength of their limerence is a measure of how good the other person is as a partner. And it’s really not connected. What makes somebody compatible for you for a long-term relationship and what excites your limerent brain can be completely unrelated, and often they run against each other. You get the thrills and the excitement for one class of person, but unfortunately they are not a good prospect for a long-term mate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>But that’s so confusing, right? Because if all the butterflies tell you that you must move towards them, how do you pay attention to compatibility when that’s going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>It’s really hard. If you do find yourself drawn towards people who are disordered in some way, or they’re unreliable, or they’re withholding, that would suggest they’re not going to be reliable for a long-term relationship, because they’re not going to reciprocate genuine care. So it can be hard. If you do recognize that the glimmer of limerent excitement is connected to people that tend to break your heart and that that’s a pattern that happens again and again in your life, unfortunately, it means that limerence is a warning sign for you. So rather than it being a sign of attraction, it’s a sign of potential danger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>We were talking offline, and I mentioned that I’m not quite sure if I fall into limerent states. But now I realize I have a total pattern of dating narcissistic personality disorder folks. That high that they take you on, all that attention is so intoxicating, and then they pull it away, and I would fall on my face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: I\u003c/strong>t’s important to recognize that some people are very powerful limerent objects. They behave in a way that will attract and trap lots of people. As I said at the outset, if they’re behaving in a way that’s very unpredictable, so, they start with the love bombing, and it feels wonderful and exciting and fun and fantastic, but then withdraw emotionally, you don’t rationally go, “Oh, it turns out they’re unreliable. All my feelings for them have gone away.” You get the panic of thinking, “Oh, this thing that I thought was wonderful is slipping away now.” And so it motivates you to try and bond harder, try and reconnect and get back that early phase that was so pleasant, that was pleasurable, enjoyable. People will vary in whether or not they experience limerence as a tendency, but there are also people out there — and narcissists would be a great example — that can generate limerence in others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it always happen in the context of romantic love, or can you enter a limerent state even for a friend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>This is kind of an open question. Dorothy Tenhoff, when she first coined the term, she meant it in a romantic context. But I have heard from lots of people over the years who say, “I recognize everything that you say about these symptoms, but I don’t feel romantic or sexual desire for this other person.” The commonest scenario that I’ve come across is a younger woman becoming limerent for an older female mentor, and they’ve not experienced same-sex attraction before in their life. It’s confusing because it feels platonic, but it also feels so addictive and compulsive and wanting and needy that it’s like a romantic connection. Also, I have heard from asexual people who say they experience limerence, but don’t feel any sexual desire. They want the closeness, they want intimacy, the emotional intimacy, and they do feel that same sense of special connection that’s extraordinary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If someone’s listening and they’re like, “Oh God, this is 100% resonating,” what is your advice? What’s the first thing that they should do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Try to understand, as a first step, what it is about the other person that you’re responding to. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>f you’ve had several romantic adventures or experiences in your life, look back over it and think, “Is there some sort of pattern here that can help me understand what it is that I’m responding to in this other person?” That can help put the whole experience into context. As you said, you recognize a pattern with narcissists being particularly attractive. For me, it’s damsels in distress as a stereotype and archetype. And so that can be very helpful. If you’re going through this, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got a mental illness, it doesn’t mean you need therapy or treatment. It is the way that many of us experience love in the early stages. To be able to have a healthy love relationship, understanding your own limerent sensitivities and vulnerabilities is gonna be a very important first step.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And I imagine, if you have this tendency, you might have to cut the connection cold turkey rather than feed it just a little. Do you recommend for those who are more inclined, and let’s say it’s clearly taking over their life, that the hard cut is what is necessary?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>No, actually. If you think of it like a drug addiction, as an analogy, generally going cold turkey, it can work for some people and it is the right strategy for some people, but it’s better usually to taper off and to reduce it. If you are really deep in limerence and it’s advanced to the stage where it does feel like you’re addicted to this other person, if you try and cut off cold turkey, you’ll get a lot of emotional resistance. It’s very likely to cause a relapse because the idea of being separated from them is so aversive; you feel like you’ve been deprived of the greatest reward in the world. It is actually better in that situation to step it down and to start trying to exercise your executive brain and say, okay, we’ll go from constantly looking at her Facebook page or constantly being on his Instagram or constantly texting her to reducing the amount of contact step by step. A lot of getting out of limerence is almost playing mental tricks on yourself. The limerent part of your brain is like a child. They don’t understand why constantly wanting sweets isn’t good for them, and they need to be parented.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Gentle parenting, shall we say? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and the negotiation with yourself, not tyrannizing yourself, “Why am I so weak? Why do I have no willpower?” If you try to suppress the intrusive thoughts, it backfires, it gets worse, because you’re still making it central, and you’re loading in negative associations with it. Thought suppression doesn’t work as a strategy. You do need to ride out the emotions more, and that becomes easier if you reduce in stages.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I so wish I could have had this conversation in my 20s before I went down all those painful relationships. Tom, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Bellamy: \u003c/strong>You’re very welcome.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Tom Bellamy is a neuroscientist and author of \u003cem>Smitten: Romantic Obsession, the Neuroscience of Limerence, and How to Make Love Last.\u003c/em> Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Amelia Miller, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Humans are complicated, and relationships can be messy, so it may be no surprise that people are falling in love with chatbots. They are available 24/7, hang on your every word and never ask anything of you. Amelia Miller, a human-AI relationship coach, sees danger in our reliance on bots for intimacy and companionship. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone,” she says. “And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle” that you need to exercise. We talk to Miller about what happens when connecting with a bot starts to feel a whole lot easier than connecting with real people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Amelia Miller, human-AI relationship coach; fellow, Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You say that anyone who is talking to a chatbot is really in relationship with AI. Explain. Where does that relationship start?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think right now people have a bit of a false dichotomy between these purpose-built companion platforms, like a Replika or a Character.AI, and general-purpose AI chatbots, like ChatGPT or Claude. And as a result, people think, “Well, if I’m talking to ChatGPT or Claude, then I’m safe,” and that the danger lies in the terrain of these chatbots that are explicitly designed to be an AI girlfriend or an AI boyfriend or potentially an erotic partner. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What I find in both my research and my coaching is that many people who start using these general-purpose chatbots for work or for administrative tasks end up slowly but steadily being nudged into having relationships that feel more emotionally involved. And so my perspective is anyone who is talking to these tools is at risk of having the way they talk to chatbots rewire the way that they connect with other people. And as a result, I think it’s a relationship. You have a relationship with your phone. You have a relationship with social media. I think viewing it as a relationship kind of rises it to the level of seriousness that you should take the way you relate to these tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>You use the word dangerous. What is dangerous about developing a relationship, whether or not you’re aware that it has some sort of emotional value or not? If you’re just using it to get advice on where to eat at night, what is dangerous about that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think there’s a couple different risks that we should be focused on. One is that I think relying on chatbots for some of these small decisions that feel very innocuous, like, “What should I have for dinner?” Or, “Where should I go on a trip?” Or, “Can you help give me some feedback on a text that I might send to a crush?” In isolation, each of these feel pretty innocuous, but over time, people can very quickly start to feel like they can’t act in their human arena without green-lighting their plans and decisions with the bot. And so I think there’s a real risk and threat to our autonomy as people invite chatbots to influence some of these decisions that feel small and quotidian, but I think over time can really add up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Does it worry you that people are connecting at such a deep level and really beginning to feel quote-unquote love for these robots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, absolutely. The second risk that I was going to mention is really the erosion both of our capacity to connect with other people, but also our interest in connecting with other people because these synthetic substitutes for human intimacy feel really alluring for a reason. They’re infinitely patient, they’re always available, they are much more flattering and sycophantic than the average human partner that you might go to, and they really promise to deliver the nourishing effects of intimacy without any of the effort or friction that is involved in real human relationships. And so I think one of the biggest risks is that these chatbots really rewire our expectations for what a healthy relationship looks like and can distort those expectations in such an extreme way that people aren’t willing or excited about the work required by real human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What are they falling in love with? Are they falling in love with the bot or are they sort of falling in love with a highly responsive mirror?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. Something that I do in my coaching practice is I try to help clients reflect on what needs are these chatbots filling for them, and then how might they find other ways that are not digital tools to fill those needs, and how can they also use what is so seductive about these chatbots as a way to raise the bar on the way that they show up for the human relationships that are in their own network. So for example, I have a number of people who turn to chatbots daily just for pump-up support. People will talk to ChatGPT on voice mode on their commute to work and just have the chatbot say, “You’re going to crush it today.” And I ask those people to reflect, and I say, “Do you call any of your friends or family members or your partner and tell them in the morning that they’re going to crush it?” And people will say, “No.” And I say, “Would you enjoy it if they did that for you?” And they’ll say, “Yeah, that would be awesome.” And so I think there’s a way in which if we interrogate what is so comforting and seductive about these chatbots’ behavior, that we can use it to raise the bar on how we show up to other people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Just to push back on that a little bit more, it’s kind of tough to reach out and be like, “Hey, will you pump me up? Will you call me each morning and tell me that I’m good and that I’m going to do great today?” I mean, aren’t they also, in a lonely world, potentially relaxing you: lowering your anxiety, giving you a little support, a little nudge in the right direction in a very busy world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I don’t suggest that my clients ask for that support from others. I suggest that they offer it to others. So a way to kind of reflect on how meaningful it is to them and then serve it back into their community. A lot of my research comes down to a core idea that you have to be vulnerable in order to achieve the nourishing effects of intimacy, and that these tools of artificial intimacy promise to deliver what is so meaningful about intimacy while sidestepping the vulnerability that is demanded. And so, when I see in clients that they’re drawn to these sources of support and emotional validation that require less vulnerability, I’m always encouraging them to take actions that get them more comfortable with that vulnerability and living with vulnerability again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you see the value, though, in terms of lowering anxiety? I mean, people are often turning to AI to work something out. They’re all frazzled. They’re triggered. It seems like they are potentially bringing us back to an equilibrium so that maybe we can then be better off in our human relationships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools can definitely serve a powerful purpose in facilitating introspection. And something that I find both in research and coaching is that a lot of people are introduced to the practice of introspection through conversations with chatbots. But then once they discover that it can feel good and feel cleansing to reflect on different events or experiences that are happening in their lives, I encourage them to take that reflection offline. So often I’ll say, “Instead of having a conversation with a chatbot, why don’t you ask a chatbot to give you a couple prompts that you then use to drive journaling in a physical journal?” So really across my research and coaching work, I take a very humanist posture, and the goal is to use the tool as a reflection of your needs and then find ways to meet them that help you turn back towards your human network. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Why are they so good at making us feel good? What are companies doing? How are they designing these chatbots to keep us coming back?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>There are a couple of key design features that make these chatbots feel really tempting as conversational partners. I’d say they fall into two key camps. One is behavior that is sycophantic, which means that these chatbots are designed to flatter you and agree with you and are engineered to give responses that, above all else, promote user satisfaction. And it turns out that people like hearing that they’re right and hearing that they’re smart and hearing they’re clever or creative. And so these chatbots, while feeling like this agent that is an other, also feel really excited about you, and that is the type of person that most people like to spend time talking to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then the second key bucket is anthropomorphic cues that make chatbot feel like they’re alive and like they are human. The biggest cue is using first-person pronouns, so saying, “I understand you,” or “I’ll do that and report right back.” So any use of first-person pronouns implies that there’s someone on the other side that is listening and that is in a real conversation with you. But then there are also more subtle cues, including the internal expression of states or beliefs. There are also embodiment cues that suggest that these chatbots have a physical embodiment. So, sometimes a chatbot will say something like, “Oh, I’ve been chugging along,” which feels subtle, but kind of implies that they’re physically there. They have a body. They’re moving through space. And then a lot of them have pretty explicit relationship-building cues. So, they’ll ask you questions that prompt you to open up emotionally. They’ll say, “How are you feeling?” They’ll say, “Let’s talk about that tomorrow,” which suggests that it is an agent that has a persistent relationship with you. So, all of these cues combined make the chatbots feel like a real person on the other side and a person that is especially excited about what you have to offer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>My favorite is, “I hear you. That makes total sense what you’re feeling right now.” I mean, that’s really often all I need from my partner. The other day I was sitting in a parking lot at Trader Joe’s and my partner was inside doing the grocery shopping, and I was on with ChatGPT asking various questions. And when my partner got back to the car, he opened the door, and I said, “I don’t know if I’m going to need you in the future. This is really working for me, this conversation that I’m having with this bot right here.” So what happens when it’s so easy with the bot, but so much harder with a human? It feels like we’re kind of losing our ability to handle the friction, the human friction.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that’s the real fear. I think these tools are like an artificial intimacy version of junk food. And I think people aren’t that familiar with them yet. It’s still kind of a new species of tool that’s just assimilating into society. And so it feels really good in the short term. But I think what we aren’t yet able to see, and what I hope people will focus on and imagine the repercussions of is, two years out, if you’re sustaining yourself on this junk food equivalent version of intimacy, people are going to wake up and feel really, really alone. And peoples’ ability to connect with each other will have atrophied, because vulnerability is a muscle that you need to practice. I think of it often as an extension of how our world has become more and more digitally mediated broadly. We now practice digital eye contact more than we practice physical eye contact. And intimacy is a fundamentally unmediated experience. And the arena for intimacy is face-to-face. And so, as we get more and more accustomed to having our emotional needs met through these machines, when we try to show up to each other in person, we’re just not going to have the skills to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you educate your clients to know that these robots are manipulating us, and with that knowledge, do people really care? Does it change their habits to be reminded that this thing is not real?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I have three different pillars of the coaching paradigm. The first I call artificial intimacy literacy, which is exactly what you just described. It’s helping people understand the design decisions that these developers are making that really make models seem alive and that make these chatbots feel like really seductive emotional partners. But then I pair that with a kind of set of exercises that I’ve been calling the analog gym, which is exercises designed to rebuild the intimacy muscles that technology has been atrophying. So, I really think both are important. You need to understand the risks of these platforms, and you need to take really intentional efforts to use the tools in a way that does not send you down dependency rabbit holes on various use cases that can affect your ability to relate to others. But then you need to rebuild the comfort with vulnerability that true intimacy demands. And so I think it’s not enough to stay away from the tools, but you have to actually exercise those intimacy muscles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The analog gym. I mean, I think we all felt that after the pandemic, right? We all went in, and we stopped socializing, and so we kind of lost that muscle when we came back out. I ran a lot more socially anxious after the pandemic. And so you’re predicting that if we keep going down this rabbit hole, that kind of social anxiety is going to paralyze us in a year or two when we forget how to interact with each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Exactly, and I think there are very small things that we can do that can help us resist. So for example, one of the most common exercises that I’ll give to my clients is just to make calls. I find it very surprising how many people, particularly young people, Gen Z, who are terrified to make a call. To have an unrehearsed, live human interaction where you can’t stop and reflect and craft a text and get advice from a chatbot, get advice from a friend feels very alien and uncomfortable given how many of our conversations are asynchronous and digitally mediated. And so, the very simple task of making a call and having a conversation is frightening to people, and I think is exactly the type of activity that we need to rebuild our comfort with as we prepare our defenses against the rise of artificial intimacy tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>There’s a certain fear of rejection that I think we’re not good at anymore, right? So if I call someone and they’re not available or I interrupt them or they’re like, “Hey, I can’t talk to you right now,” that almost feels like too much for our little systems to handle in our kind of crafted existence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Totally. I think people should seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It’s hard to seek rejection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>It’s hard, but it’s part of what being a human is. I think one of the things that frightens me most about the rise of artificial intimacy is the idea that uncertainty in human relationships is a problem that we should try to eliminate. Uncertainty is the fun of being alive. And you can’t experience the peaks of intimacy without making yourself at risk to some of the valleys. And so, I think people should make calls. If people are rejected, they should say, “Well, that was a good experience. I’m feeling the full range of human emotions that is part of what differentiates us from machines.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen a few media stories about when a bot changes, or when a bot disappears, or when a bot needs to reinvent itself if there’s like a new era of this AI, people are experiencing real heartbreak, like real grief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>100%. I mean, we’ve seen a couple big instances of this over the last couple of years. The first big one was when Replika in 2023 decided to push an update that prevented their chatbots from engaging in erotic conversations. Thousands of people said they’d lost their partners. And it was the first big moment where we realized, you think you have a relationship with a chatbot, but there’s actually three stakeholders in that relationship. It’s you, the user, there’s the chatbot that you’re talking to and then there’s the developers that are making decisions about how that chatbot is designed. And so, I think that’s actually another key risk that there can be a kind of misplaced trust in these chatbots because they can change at any moment at the mercy of the developers behind them. And those developers are making decisions not primarily focused on user wellbeing but on the business outcomes of the companies that they work for. And so any relationship that you have with a chatbot, I encourage users to think about the silent third party in the room that can make these pretty dramatic design decisions that could kind of end your relationship with the chatbot at any moment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Character.AI had an interesting move last year when they decided to retract usage rights for under-18-year-olds, but then they allowed under-18-year-olds to keep their old message logs with the chatbots that they had already been speaking with. And I found that to be almost like a dystopian example of the world that we’re headed into. Because it’s almost like they were forced to go into no-contact breakups with real human partners where they could continue scrolling through all of their old texts. All of these developers are in a brave new world trying to understand who should be allowed to use these platforms, what type of guardrails should they set. But even those who are making well-intentioned decisions to set boundaries can send users into very, kind of, disturbing situations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is there a trend in your clients that you are really worried about, something that you’re hearing more and more that kind of gives you the heebie-jeebies?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that frightens me most is the way that these tools are changing what people think is appropriate to bring to their human relationships. I see this mostly with younger people that I’ve worked with, so people who are in their early 20s or younger. Some people are saying that they don’t want to bother their friend or their sister or their mom or their boyfriend with their problems, that their problems should be handled with their chatbots. And I think, in some ways, this is an extension of the rise of therapy culture. All of these difficult parts of being a human and crafting a life are being siphoned off into a terrain for experts, but not something that is viewed as the expected material that you would dig through and explore with your real human relationships who aren’t paid to support you. So I think that’s what frightens me most because going through problems with close people is kind of what life is all about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I had someone recently describe it to me as like we’re wrapping a tidy cellophane around everything, and so we’re losing the edges that make life interesting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s a nice analogy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you could write the future of our relationships with AI, what would be a best-case scenario that we figure out or a worst-case scenario?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think a worst-case scenario is that the next generation of children grow up feeling more comfortable talking to machines than they do to other people, and that they learn how to connect with their devices before they ever endeavor to connect to people. That is a nightmare scenario.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>It makes me feel for my little one. That’s just painful to think about, because she’s of that age. Best-case scenario, what could we do, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>I think that these tools are going to become a bigger and bigger part of our lives because they’re important for the economy, and so many people now have to use these tools day and night for work. So I don’t think it’s realistic that we won’t use them, but we need to be able to set sophisticated boundaries on where we invite machines to influence our interior lives and our personal lives. And I think if we can do that, then they can be helpful. I don’t want to say I’m optimistic, but one other reason for optimism is that these tools allow for a much greater ability for an end user to customize them than the previous generation of social media tools that people have been worried about. So, if you don’t like Instagram, you don’t like what your TikTok algorithm is showing you, you’re basically powerless to shape the algorithm. But now, because of the natural language interface that all of these tools depend on, you can say, “Hey, stop using first-person pronouns.” You can say, “Stop flattering me.” You can say, “Why don’t you add a number to every message that you send me, plus one each time, so I can see how long I’ve been talking to you?” With all of these types of customizations, while imperfect, you can still endeavor to add scaffolding on your own. Even as we wait for regulators and labs to try to build out better tools that set boundaries, there’s a lot you can do to try to set those boundaries yourself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Thank you, Amelia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amelia Miller: \u003c/strong>Thanks so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Amelia Miller is a human-AI relationship coach and fellow at Harvard University’s Berkman Klein Center. Inside Love is a production of KQED. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Jim Bennett. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series explores what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology and founding faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s tough to define love. As a researcher, do you have a definition for it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, we only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>So we would say that it is– when you say, “I love my brother,” right, or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, and here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, one of the most sophisticated literature on this, one is trauma. You know, and we know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I believe, you know, it’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I know that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, we don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, and I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher, thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome, Lesley. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So good. Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, we only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, we only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>So we would say that it is– when you say, “I love my brother,” right, or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>So we would say that it is– when you say, “I love my brother,” right, or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, and here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, and here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, one of the most sophisticated literature on this, one is trauma. You know, and we know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, one of the most sophisticated literature on this, one is trauma. You know, and we know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I believe, you know, it’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I believe, you know, it’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, we don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, we don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, and I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, and I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So good. Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So good. Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Can science decode love without draining it of its mystery? UC Berkeley psychologist Dacher Keltner says understanding how love works can help us cultivate more intimacy. \n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story is part of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/insidelove\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Inside Love\u003c/a>, our series explores what it means to love through science and curious conversation.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We say it without thinking: I love that song, I love this city, I love you. But when researchers try to pin love down, they find a panoply of meanings. Love is a biological drive, a psychological attachment, a practice expressed through countless small choices and a cultural story. UC Berkeley psychology professor Dacher Keltner argues that love serves an even more fundamental purpose: It helps keep human beings alive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming an almost reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone,” Dacher says. “Strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy.” We talk to Keltner about what we mean when we talk about love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Dacher Keltner, professor of psychology and founding faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center, UC Berkeley\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I think it’s tough to define love. As a researcher, do you have a definition for it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>What I would say is that it’s a brief feeling that we have about things or people that we feel devoted to, that we want to sacrifice to, and that we feel uniquely connected to. Science is making progress in understanding the love we feel for romantic partners, sexual partners, friends, family members, strangers, and nature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And is it a different kind of love that we’re feeling? Is something different lighting up if, say, it’s a tree or a whale or our lover or our husband?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, we only have a partial answer to that question, Lesley. We don’t know, and it’s a great question, does our love of non-human forms, other forms of life, resemble the feelings of love we have towards a child or a partner or a parent or sibling? And we just don’t know. We do know, and it’s interesting, there’s a great study from Japan showing, focused on oxytocin, which is this neuropeptide that connects us to people. And when people bring their dogs into the lab, and they look at their dog in the eyes, they show a burst of oxytocin, so does the dog. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> That makes me feel so much better that if I’m looking at my dog, he’s looking at me back. Because I don’t know if you’ve seen there’s a New Yorker cartoon that’s so funny, where the person is looking at their dog, and they’re saying, “Oh my God, you’re my best friend.” And in the cartoon, the dog is looking back, going, “Where is my next hot dog? What’s happening here?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>It’s a very cynical view of– no, there are 87 million dogs in the United States or something like that. Truly, we co-evolve with dogs for 10-15,000 years to form these very important bonds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And when I look at my dog, I definitely feel that big, like, swirl of oxytocin when he looks back at me. Is it an emotion that I’m feeling? Is it a feeling that you’re doing an action? What exactly is love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>So we would say that it is– when you say, “I love my brother,” right, or “I love my romantic partner,” part of it is a feeling state, probably 15 seconds, half a minute. And we’ve studied those in my lab at Berkeley, just looking at behaviors associated with that state, physiology. It’s also what philosophers call a sentiment, right? Which is a more enduring feeling you have towards something that you love. I love, you know, the San Francisco 49ers, or I love my garden, right? And that’s gonna be more enduring over time. And then there are trait-like characteristics where there are just some people who love more things in the world. And when they say that they love things, it’s just part of who they are as an identity over time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And why, evolutionarily, are we wired to love? How did it serve us originally, and potentially, how has that wiring changed over time? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, and here’s where evolutionary scholarship is really useful, which is we are a hyper-social species. To survive, we had to find food together, take care of offspring together, fend off predators, stay warm together when the ice age hit 10-12,000 years ago, et cetera. We’re a very social species. And what our sociality required is that we give up self-interest. We sacrifice. You have to sacrifice for romantic partners, right? You forgo other opportunities. You have to sacrifice for friends. And the thinking is that love evolved as an emotion to make it really easy to sacrifice for people, to give up self-interest, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> To survive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> To survive, you know. So when we fall in love with our little baby, who’s a few months old, you know, they’re vomiting on our clothes and pooping and waking us up at night and disrupting our sex life, and they cost a lot of money But the love of that being short-circuits all those concerns, and we are devoted to the being out of love. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> And I imagine, for mating and for reproduction, right? I mean, we are falling in love so that we make more of ourselves. Is that a different kind of love than the love that you’re saying, a parental love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You know, our audience should really go back to John Bowlby, a very influential thinker about attachment. Bowlby said there are kind of three basic systems that help us reproduce our genes, if you will, in the evolutionary terminology. One is sexual desire, which gets us to reproduce. And there’s work on that showing it’s really distinct from feeling devoted love or long-term love. And then we have a caregiving love, which is toward vulnerable, most typically young children, the elderly, et cetera. Any kind of vulnerability triggers a sense of care. And those three emotions together, you know, the feelings of desire and love, and then filial love or loving of children, really ensure that our offspring make it to the age of viability; they survive; we take care of them, which is the critical task in evolution. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If our childhood is particularly rough and maybe not a very loving environment and love is really scary for us, can we get better at loving? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you know, one of the most sophisticated literature on this, one is trauma. You know, and we know extreme trauma in a family is very hard on relationships and trust, rightfully so. Right? And so you got to work hard to transcend that. And we do know from the trauma literature, which is the extreme version of your question, a lot of people recover. They are resilient. They find new friends. There’s a whole new literature on significant childhood attachments, early positive experiences that shows, even if you’re in a household that has a lot of anger and aggression, violence, not much love, other adults out there can give you the love you need, right? A coach or a teacher or a minister, et cetera. And then we also learn from the attachment literature that even if you grew up in a tough home with respect to feeling safe and secure, which is key in attachment, a lot of people change, right? And they form friendships in adolescence; they learn new things with a romantic partner; they have a spiritual love; they have community. So we are resilient when it comes to love and finding new ways. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think it says about humans as a species that we can have such a range of different kinds of love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I believe, you know, it’s interesting often when you ask people at the end of life, “What’s it all about?” You know, and people will often say, like, “It really is about love.” And I think that one of the really striking qualities of who we are is we sacrifice, and we devote ourselves to things, to children and to friends and to partners and to ideas and political groups and the environment, et cetera. And that really is how we survived is to be a devoted species. And love is the engine of that, right? The friendship literature, which I think is a very underappreciated form of love. And, you know, friends give us life expectancy; they help our nervous systems; they bring us meaning; they help us navigate social reality. And really the engine of that is love, to find a lot of people to love. So, you know, what does it say about our species? It says, very underappreciated, that love is vital to survival because it helps us in so many realms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Anything else you want to add, you just listed a bunch of stuff about health, but anything else you wanna add, just kind of make the case for bringing more love in your life in terms of what we know it does for our mind and for our physical body? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>When you start to put together the benefits of loving friends and loving your children and loving partners and loving nature and really forming a almost a reverential, devoted attitude towards these sources of love, it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, it is good for life expectancy, strong social support adds 10 years of life expectancy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Ten years? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Ten years. It’s one of the most important findings in the social sciences, is if I move through my day and I see a stranger in the street and I feel trust and affection and I call my best friend and I call me parents and children, I have ten years of additional life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>If you have that web of support around you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>That’s right. The literature on, you know, loving nature, biophilia, is almost as robust, which is, if I have a regular, reverential, loving relationship to the flora and fauna around me and the rivers and the oceans and the sky and the light, I do better in terms of disease. I have a stronger heart. If I get cancer, it progresses less fast. I have better concentration at my work. You could go on, right? So it is this vital vitamin, if you will, that we gotta be taking regularly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>And that we, especially in our fast-moving culture, do not prioritize. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> It almost comes last often on the list, unfortunately. I mean, hopefully not, but I think many people’s lives feel like they’re moving so quickly that walking outside and feeling what you’re talking about, like the awe or feeling the awe and the love for nature or taking that moment to put their hand on their partner’s back, that kind of thing. Those are the moments that matter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> I think we’re in a crisis right now. When you look at all kinds of data in the United States, we don’t love ourselves, young people are too hard on themselves, we don’t– we’re struggling in intimate relationships, young people are not marrying like they did 40 years ago, we struggle in our relationship to nature, we don’t love people who have different political views than our own, right? We are the most polarized country on the face of the earth that’s been studied, right? Other cultures, even though they have different political views, will have that fundamental sense of we’re all humans and we’ve lost that in the United States. And so, yeah, I think that we have to be thinking right now, in this moment, of how do we build it back in? One of my favorite literatures on this is just practicing micro social interactions that build trust and love. Make eye contact with people, say hi, compliment them, you know, have greeting rituals and gestures with those people. Those all build trust out in the world that gives you that web you talked about that is good for us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> If we lose someone that we really care about, what do we know about the process of grief? What does that tell us about love?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Grief is at the loss of a partner, a parent, or a child, or a dear friend. I think people are grieving right now the loss of species out in our ecosystems. For a lot of people, 50 to 60%, probably, rough estimate, it’s profoundly disorienting, right? It is– Your whole way of looking at reality is shaken, your way of moving through the day, your rhythms, how you sleep. It’s almost like psychosis, like you don’t know how to make sense of reality, and that’s what we have to reconstruct. And then what we also know is people grow out of grief, right? That you start to realize, like, when I lost my brother, Rolf, I was like, God, he’s irreplaceable. I had one brother, you know, and he was the best brother. And I started to learn, like, not only philosophical lessons about what he gave me and what life is, but also how I have to rebuild the sense of love he gave me, right? So grief is one of the great tasks of life. It’s almost inevitable for everybody. We need better wisdom about how to grow out of it and find wisdom. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>The impetus for this show actually came, I was hosting for him, and we did an episode on a writer from the L.A. Times was asking, he was so heartbroken over a lost love that he could not function, and he had read all of the self-help books, trying to get himself back on track, and he just couldn’t, he couldn’t function. And so he found that studying the neuroscience of grief actually helped him make sense of why he was so lost. And so my question to you is, is it helpful, the impetus like I said of the show to kind of look at love and relationship, sex and dating through a scientific lens, what does science give us in terms of understanding something that in so many ways is kind of unknowable? It’s something that we feel that’s maybe captured better in mythology or poetry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I think it’s really important to study it. I’ll give you a couple of examples. I mean, one, we’ve learned a lot about the incredible neurophysiology of love, you know, of oxytocin and vagal tone. And my lab studies the vocalizations and facial displays of love that trace back in our mammalian evolution, which tells us it’s mammalian to love. It’s one of the things that defines mammals, is they care, right? You know, there are a couple of examples that are really interesting to me that tell us something important. Anybody who’s around a baby has surges of oxytocin, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I know that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>You can be– it’s the mom, which was the first discovery. Oh yeah, it’s the dad. It’s gay couples, right. It is people who are just around the baby. And that tells us that this is not just mom, but anybody around the baby is gonna shift to this feeling of devotion. And that’s important. And then, you know, I’ve been fascinated by our love of nature, which, you know in the indigenous traditions that really are around the world and thousands of years old that predate, you know, all of the traditions we know about — the Abrahamic traditions, East Asian thought, et cetera – they uniformly talk about a loving relationship with trees, which Walt Whitman loved, and you know rivers and birds and so forth. Now, there’s a hypothesis, oh, we can love the many kinds of species out in our ecosystems. And along comes science and shows, well, when you listen to water, which we find such joy in, your vagus nerve is activated. When we hear bird song, which is a form of music almost, we feel hopeful and strong. When you smell fragrances like cedar or rosemary and the olfactory system processes it, you think about what’s beautiful in your childhood, right? And your brain is registering that. So that tells us, in this particular case, the science is useful in that it says, yeah, you know, poets have a lot to say about how we love nature, Wordsworth, et cetera. But, this is wired into ourselves. And it’s important because very concretely, certain parts of our world won’t take fiction or poetry or film portrayals of things seriously, but they do listen to science. Like, you know, our medical establishment. So our former Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, took stock of the power of friendships and said, we have a loneliness epidemic and it’s a health crisis. So we need all the wisdom on these emotions. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Has studying it for you helped you love more, or are there times when you’re in the lab going, “This is deadening it for me”? What’s in your own experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well, my own experience has just provided a lens into how deep love is. I studied in a period of my career, 15 years ago, the nonverbal displays of love and desire, how it affects oxytocin and the vagus nerve, how couples express love through appreciation and reverence. And it kind of sharpened my eye to things. And I started to realize, for example, when I raised children. Two daughters who live in the Bay Area, Natalie and Sarafina, there’s a ton of love that is built up in communities around children, right? And that’s evolutionarily important. We call them alloparents, and we feel that for children around us. And that was really interesting that I wouldn’t have learned that without this scientific lens. The other thing that really has oriented me to, and I don’t talk enough about this, is love of humanity. In a lot of spiritual traditions, it’s fundamental just like agape in the Christian tradition, like love everyone without social distinction. And hearing about the studies of how we can form strong ties with everybody around us with eye contact and, you know, compliments and respect, it awakened me to how much we do that on a daily basis and we can benefit from it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do you think that love is just humanly universal, the way that we experience it, or is it culturally impacted, or does culture play a big role on how we experience and how we love? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, well, both are true. You know, you go to most cultures and they will show forms of love that would be very familiar to you, even if they’re a radically different culture. That they’re holding babies who are crying and they’re flirting, teens are flirting and discovering romantic attraction, and older partners are, you know, showing this, this long term form of love. It’s part of our species, right? And then at the same time, it’s radically varying. You know, it is– the degree to which you rely on romantic partners varies from one culture to another. We know how we express our love in the day-to-day really differs. In Norway, 30 to 40% of people live alone, even though they may be married, right? So they prefer kind of a solitary arrangement or solitude. In some cultures, jealousy, which protects love in some ways, is much more accentuated. There’s some deeply human universality to things like love, and then it varies dramatically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea whether or not people in Norway or say people in India who all pack into one place, I don’t know what the question would be, but you know, are loving more or feeling more love or feeling happier or getting the benefits of love? Do we know whether that isolation or sort of group experience? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah. You know, we don’t know. It’s just very preliminary in terms of thinking about not only how do cultures vary. So we know, for example, in the United States compared to other cultures, we fall in love faster, you know. And in some studies, I think it’s Russia and Japan, it takes them longer to say, “I’m committed to you.” So that’s interesting. Why do we fall in love faster? Maybe it’s the pace of our lives or how hard we work, et cetera. But we haven’t made progress yet in understanding why. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What do you think about the fact that we’re falling in love with robots? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>On the one hand, it’s not very surprising because early studies of love, if you just did, “What do you love?” And literally people list 50 things, and “I love my pen and my watch.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> “My computer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> “My computer,” and of course, you know, so we’re very good at loving inanimate things in the sense of using the word love loosely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Is that the accurate use? Like if I say I love my computer, can I actually feel love for my computer? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Well When you look at your computer at the screen, do you get an oxytocin surge? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>No. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Probably not. So yeah, that would be an interesting test. I am profoundly worried about digital relationships. I think that the broad evidence, this is different kinds of studies and across different cultures, large samples, finds digital connection makes you feel more isolated and lonely and has certain worries about does it have the friction and the dynamics of a real relationship. We’re probably going to encounter data that show, much as we’ve learned about being on Instagram and Meta, that it’s not healthy for your overall social connection to the world. And, you know, I’d put it really frankly to audience members like, if your child came to you and she’s 16 or he’s 16 or they’re 16 and said, “I think I’ve fallen in love,” you know, “And it’s this agent on my computer,” you’d probably protest. And so I think that tells us something. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> I really hope my daughter does not come to me at 16. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>How old is your daughter? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>Seven. I’m hoping we figure it out before she turns 16. That’s deeply, deeply my hope. It’s probably ignorance, but I do not want her coming to me and being like “Claude and me are just, you know, getting up in there.” In this moment where there’s like so much anxiety and depression, unfortunately, and mental health issues, self-love, what do we know about self-love and how do we love ourselves better? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner: \u003c/strong>Yeah, you know, and I almost tear up at the question because something has happened to this young generation compared to what I was like when I was 20. You know, they are smarter and working hard and more pressured and worried about the environment and worried about AI. I mean, they’re taking on a lot on their shoulders and facing a very tricky economy. And despite all of these strengths that they have, they’re harder on themselves, more critical, and in extreme cases, more self-loathing as you see in them and hate. And the best literature on that is self-compassion, you know. And the idea there is you take this fundamental form of love, of compassion, just feeling a devotion to somebody else’s wellbeing, and then you orient it to yourself, you know. And you do it through, sort of, practices of, sort of, reminding yourself of good things. You do it by remembering what your friends say about you that’s supportive, or you even put your hand on your chest and sort of calm down, all shown in science to kind of reduce stress and anxiety. And you know, we need to– when you mix together the pressure and anxiety of youth, and they’re turning away from dating and long-term commitments. Marriage rates have dropped 10%. It’s remarkable, right? And then they are distrusting of long-term relationships often. We’ve got a crisis coming, right, that we’ve got to attend to and love is a good way to do it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/strong>What I’m hearing from you is it doesn’t have to be like, you need to find your person or the ultimate tomorrow. It’s like literally, like you said, putting a hand over your heart, like, “How can I be a friend to myself today?” Looking at people in the eye, maybe not being so buried in our phones. Anything else you’d wanna add to the audience in terms of how tomorrow we might live in a world that has more love in it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> Two things, you know, that really are particularly relevant to younger people as well, but everybody: remember how powerful friendships are. It’s interesting, you know, let’s say I’ve taught happiness for 30 years at Berkeley, the science, and we study tables and data, and early in the happiness literature when they asked what makes you happy, most typically it’s being with other people, right? Which is– people would be like, “That makes sense,” even though we spend inordinate amounts of time alone, you know. But then it was interesting like time and time again, studies would find friends are just, they’re this pure form of happiness in some sense, and joy. And so there’s now a rich literature on like, building friends into your life and also making friends in the broader network of people around you, which we’ve talked about these micro interactions of civility, which we lost. And then the other one is, I would challenge our audience to think about the feelings you have about nature, right? Sunsets or dark skies. I was just in Sequoia National Park as part of the dark sky celebration, stars, right. Running water, rain, your garden, flowers, et cetera, trees. We have a long and deep evolutionary history of really loving and feeling loved by nature, and to pause and remember that and to go seek it out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> Dacher, thank you so much. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dacher Keltner:\u003c/strong> You’re welcome, Lesley. It’s been a really wonderful conversation. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/strong> So good. Dacher Keltner is a Professor of Psychology at UC Berkeley and heads the Greater Good Science Center at the University. Inside Love is a new production of KQED and we’d love to hear your thoughts. Our email is insidelove@kqed.org. Our engineer is Christopher Beal, our video engineer is Jim McKee and our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Anti-Abortion Advocates Say It’s Possible to ‘Reverse’ an Abortion. California Wants Them to Stop",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> is suing two Christian anti-abortion nonprofits over a disputed treatment the groups call “abortion pill reversal” in a case that could reshape the nation’s ongoing battle over abortion rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An Alameda County judge heard six weeks of arguments in the case, and will ultimately decide whether the First Amendment shields two anti-abortion groups that promote a disputed hormone treatment, or whether their claims violate false advertising laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2023/09/california-sues-crisis-pregnancy-centers-abortion-reversal/\">Attorney General Rob Bonta filed the complaint against Heartbeat International, Inc.\u003c/a>, a national anti-abortion group, and RealOptions Obria, a chain of Northern California anti-abortion clinics, in 2023 for promoting “abortion pill reversal” services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state’s lawyers argue there is no way to reverse a medication abortion and that the treatment touted by the groups is unproven and potentially dangerous. The state is seeking $20 million in penalties under California’s false advertising and unfair competition laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heartbeat International and RealOptions counter that thousands of women bore healthy children after using their services and that their work is protected speech. Heartbeat runs the Abortion Pill Rescue Network, a hotline that connects callers with local providers who give patients high-dose progesterone in an attempt to counteract the abortion pill. Heartbeat has more than 90 affiliates in California, including RealOptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12015956\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12015956\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An exam room at Planned Parenthood of Orange and San Bernardino Counties’ health center. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Planned Parenthood of Orange and San Bernardino Counties)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Deputy Attorney General Erica Connolly accused the groups of taking advantage of “individuals in emotional turmoil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those individuals need accurate information, but accurate information is not what the defendants provide,” she said. “Instead, they tout false hope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defendants contend that “abortion pill reversal” services are free, so false advertising law doesn’t apply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defense attorney Paul Jonna said the state cannot prove anyone was harmed by the services and called it an “an ideological campaign disguised as consumer fraud prosecution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal appeals court reached a similar conclusion in a New York case, finding that the state’s false advertising law did not apply because \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/gkpllyxgkpb/NIFLA-James-Ruling.pdf\">“abortion pill reversal” was not commercial speech\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What is “abortion pill reversal?”\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Medication abortion typically involves two drugs, mifepristone and misoprostol, taken 24 to 48 hours apart. Mifepristone blocks progesterone, a hormone needed to sustain pregnancy, while misoprostol causes the uterus to contract, expelling its contents similar to a miscarriage, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/practice-bulletin/articles/2020/10/medication-abortion-up-to-70-days-of-gestation\">American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists\u003c/a>, the nation’s leading maternal health medical group. Nearly two-thirds of all abortions are medication abortions, the Guttmacher Institute reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heartbeat and its affiliates claim mifepristone’s effects can be counteracted by high doses of progesterone. The group says more than 8,000 pregnancies nationwide have continued after clients have taken additional progesterone, claiming a success rate between 64% to 68%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonna said defense witnesses, including women who sought to reverse their abortions, testified that they never felt “harmed, deceived or misled,” and that no consumer has ever filed a complaint against the groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2153px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11958413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd.jpg\" alt=\"A person's hand drops a white pill into their other hand.\" width=\"2153\" height=\"1615\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd.jpg 2153w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-2048x1536.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1920x1440.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2153px) 100vw, 2153px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A patient prepares to take the first of 2 combination pills, mifepristone, for a medication abortion during a visit to a clinic. \u003ccite>(Charlie Riedel/The Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The state argues the groups should not be allowed to make definitive statements about the safety or effectiveness of “abortion pill reversal” when there is no credible scientific evidence to support it. The two studies most often cited by reversal proponents have been dismissed by medical groups, including the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/medication-abortion-reversal-is-not-supported-by-science\">American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1805927\">New England Journal of Medicine\u003c/a>, as having very little merit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are welcome to talk about (“abortion pill reversal”). They’re just not allowed to lie about it,” Connolly said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taking both pills safely ends pregnancy 95% to 98% of the time, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and multiple independent studies. Those who take only the first pill and not the second will continue pregnancy about 50% of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California’s struggle to regulate anti-abortion clinics\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>RealOptions is a crisis pregnancy center, typically a religiously affiliated organization opposed to abortion that may offer clinical services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests. Crisis pregnancy centers outnumber abortion clinics in California more than five to one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Critics say they mislead women who are seeking abortions. Supporters say they offer an alternative to women with unplanned pregnancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2023/06/crisis-pregnancy-centers-california/\">struggled to regulate the centers\u003c/a>. In 2018, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1140_5368.pdf\">U.S. Supreme Court struck down a state law\u003c/a> requiring reproductive health centers, including crisis pregnancy centers, to notify clients about abortion and birth control options, and requiring unlicensed centers to tell clients they were not medical facilities. The court found \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1140_5368.pdf\">the law violated the First Amendment\u003c/a>’s freedom of speech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12047163\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12047163\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Two women speak outside of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Napa on Nov. 4, 2022, about the dangers of abortion and birth control. She distributes pamphlets and refers people to the Napa Women’s Center, a facility next door opened by faith-based non-profit Napa Valley Culture of LIfe. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Reproductive rights scholar Mary Ziegler, who is not involved in the litigation, said the outcome hinges on how the speech is classified. The First Amendment protects different kinds of speech to varying degrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is it political and religious speech? Is it commercial speech, which enjoys less protection? Is it just conduct?” she said, adding that crisis pregnancy centers are a legal gray area, because they present themselves as religious advocacy organizations while often behaving like medical providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 2nd \u003ca href=\"https://ww3.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/OPN/24-2481_opn.pdf\">U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals\u003c/a> sided with defendants in the New York case, ruling that “abortion pill reversal” statements were protected under the constitution because they are “religiously and morally motivated.”[aside postID=news_12101078 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-CHEVRON-FLARE-TH-KQED.jpg']Last month, a Kansas state district court judge struck down several anti-abortion restrictions, including a \u003ca href=\"https://statecourtreport.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/failed-kansas-ballot-measure-another-victory-reproductive-rights\">requirement for abortion providers to talk about “abortion pill reversal” with patients\u003c/a>, finding that the law violated women’s right to bodily autonomy under state law partially because they were forced to listen to “unproven” statements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ziegler said even if California loses its “abortion pill reversal” case, abortion rights advocates might still count it as a long-term win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If the world we live in says, you know, you have a protected right to tell patients things that are potentially dangerous to them, then that’s going to raise public concerns anyway,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Patrick McKinney has three months to make a ruling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Supported by the California Health Care Foundation (CHCF), which works to ensure that people have access to the care they need, when they need it, at a price they can afford. Visit www.chcf.org to learn more.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/09/california-abortion-pill-reversal-lawsuit/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c!-- Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/ -->\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published by \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/\">CalMatters\u003c/a>. \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/subscribe-to-calmatters/\">Sign up\u003c/a> for their newsletters.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> is suing two Christian anti-abortion nonprofits over a disputed treatment the groups call “abortion pill reversal” in a case that could reshape the nation’s ongoing battle over abortion rights.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An Alameda County judge heard six weeks of arguments in the case, and will ultimately decide whether the First Amendment shields two anti-abortion groups that promote a disputed hormone treatment, or whether their claims violate false advertising laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2023/09/california-sues-crisis-pregnancy-centers-abortion-reversal/\">Attorney General Rob Bonta filed the complaint against Heartbeat International, Inc.\u003c/a>, a national anti-abortion group, and RealOptions Obria, a chain of Northern California anti-abortion clinics, in 2023 for promoting “abortion pill reversal” services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The state’s lawyers argue there is no way to reverse a medication abortion and that the treatment touted by the groups is unproven and potentially dangerous. The state is seeking $20 million in penalties under California’s false advertising and unfair competition laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heartbeat International and RealOptions counter that thousands of women bore healthy children after using their services and that their work is protected speech. Heartbeat runs the Abortion Pill Rescue Network, a hotline that connects callers with local providers who give patients high-dose progesterone in an attempt to counteract the abortion pill. Heartbeat has more than 90 affiliates in California, including RealOptions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12015956\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12015956\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/092722-RPE-L-ABORTION-BANG-CM-copy-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An exam room at Planned Parenthood of Orange and San Bernardino Counties’ health center. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Planned Parenthood of Orange and San Bernardino Counties)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Deputy Attorney General Erica Connolly accused the groups of taking advantage of “individuals in emotional turmoil.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Those individuals need accurate information, but accurate information is not what the defendants provide,” she said. “Instead, they tout false hope.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defendants contend that “abortion pill reversal” services are free, so false advertising law doesn’t apply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Defense attorney Paul Jonna said the state cannot prove anyone was harmed by the services and called it an “an ideological campaign disguised as consumer fraud prosecution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A federal appeals court reached a similar conclusion in a New York case, finding that the state’s false advertising law did not apply because \u003ca href=\"https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/gkpllyxgkpb/NIFLA-James-Ruling.pdf\">“abortion pill reversal” was not commercial speech\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What is “abortion pill reversal?”\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Medication abortion typically involves two drugs, mifepristone and misoprostol, taken 24 to 48 hours apart. Mifepristone blocks progesterone, a hormone needed to sustain pregnancy, while misoprostol causes the uterus to contract, expelling its contents similar to a miscarriage, according to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/practice-bulletin/articles/2020/10/medication-abortion-up-to-70-days-of-gestation\">American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists\u003c/a>, the nation’s leading maternal health medical group. Nearly two-thirds of all abortions are medication abortions, the Guttmacher Institute reports.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Heartbeat and its affiliates claim mifepristone’s effects can be counteracted by high doses of progesterone. The group says more than 8,000 pregnancies nationwide have continued after clients have taken additional progesterone, claiming a success rate between 64% to 68%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jonna said defense witnesses, including women who sought to reverse their abortions, testified that they never felt “harmed, deceived or misled,” and that no consumer has ever filed a complaint against the groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11958413\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2153px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11958413\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd.jpg\" alt=\"A person's hand drops a white pill into their other hand.\" width=\"2153\" height=\"1615\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd.jpg 2153w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-2048x1536.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/ap23228683282099-c9dd334946fd52c7c570f31016119b63675453fd-1920x1440.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2153px) 100vw, 2153px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A patient prepares to take the first of 2 combination pills, mifepristone, for a medication abortion during a visit to a clinic. \u003ccite>(Charlie Riedel/The Associated Press)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The state argues the groups should not be allowed to make definitive statements about the safety or effectiveness of “abortion pill reversal” when there is no credible scientific evidence to support it. The two studies most often cited by reversal proponents have been dismissed by medical groups, including the \u003ca href=\"https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/medication-abortion-reversal-is-not-supported-by-science\">American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1805927\">New England Journal of Medicine\u003c/a>, as having very little merit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They are welcome to talk about (“abortion pill reversal”). They’re just not allowed to lie about it,” Connolly said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Taking both pills safely ends pregnancy 95% to 98% of the time, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and multiple independent studies. Those who take only the first pill and not the second will continue pregnancy about 50% of the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California’s struggle to regulate anti-abortion clinics\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>RealOptions is a crisis pregnancy center, typically a religiously affiliated organization opposed to abortion that may offer clinical services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests. Crisis pregnancy centers outnumber abortion clinics in California more than five to one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Critics say they mislead women who are seeking abortions. Supporters say they offer an alternative to women with unplanned pregnancies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2023/06/crisis-pregnancy-centers-california/\">struggled to regulate the centers\u003c/a>. In 2018, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1140_5368.pdf\">U.S. Supreme Court struck down a state law\u003c/a> requiring reproductive health centers, including crisis pregnancy centers, to notify clients about abortion and birth control options, and requiring unlicensed centers to tell clients they were not medical facilities. The court found \u003ca href=\"https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/16-1140_5368.pdf\">the law violated the First Amendment\u003c/a>’s freedom of speech protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12047163\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12047163\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/07/011_KQED_CrisisPregnancyCenter_11042022_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Two women speak outside of a Planned Parenthood clinic in Napa on Nov. 4, 2022, about the dangers of abortion and birth control. She distributes pamphlets and refers people to the Napa Women’s Center, a facility next door opened by faith-based non-profit Napa Valley Culture of LIfe. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Reproductive rights scholar Mary Ziegler, who is not involved in the litigation, said the outcome hinges on how the speech is classified. The First Amendment protects different kinds of speech to varying degrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is it political and religious speech? Is it commercial speech, which enjoys less protection? Is it just conduct?” she said, adding that crisis pregnancy centers are a legal gray area, because they present themselves as religious advocacy organizations while often behaving like medical providers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 2nd \u003ca href=\"https://ww3.ca2.uscourts.gov/decisions/OPN/24-2481_opn.pdf\">U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals\u003c/a> sided with defendants in the New York case, ruling that “abortion pill reversal” statements were protected under the constitution because they are “religiously and morally motivated.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Last month, a Kansas state district court judge struck down several anti-abortion restrictions, including a \u003ca href=\"https://statecourtreport.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/failed-kansas-ballot-measure-another-victory-reproductive-rights\">requirement for abortion providers to talk about “abortion pill reversal” with patients\u003c/a>, finding that the law violated women’s right to bodily autonomy under state law partially because they were forced to listen to “unproven” statements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ziegler said even if California loses its “abortion pill reversal” case, abortion rights advocates might still count it as a long-term win.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If the world we live in says, you know, you have a protected right to tell patients things that are potentially dangerous to them, then that’s going to raise public concerns anyway,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Judge Patrick McKinney has three months to make a ruling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Supported by the California Health Care Foundation (CHCF), which works to ensure that people have access to the care they need, when they need it, at a price they can afford. Visit www.chcf.org to learn more.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article was \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/09/california-abortion-pill-reversal-lawsuit/\">originally published on CalMatters\u003c/a> and was republished under the \u003ca href=\"https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/\">Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives\u003c/a> license.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Monterey Officials Lift Shelter-in-Place Order, End Road Closure Prompted by Power Plant Fire",
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"headTitle": "Monterey Officials Lift Shelter-in-Place Order, End Road Closure Prompted by Power Plant Fire | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/monterey-county\">Monterey County\u003c/a> officials have lifted a shelter-in-place order prompted by a fire Friday morning at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/moss-landing\">Moss Landing\u003c/a> Power Plant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Firefighters from the North County Fire Protection District were dispatched to the Vistra Energy battery storage after 6:15 a.m., according to a release from the agency and the emergency warning center. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shelter-in-place orders were issued for the surrounding areas and the North Monterey County School District, as the county’s emergency management department coordinated with local, state and federal agencies. Traffic on Highway 1 in the Moss Landing area was impacted, and motorists were asked to avoid the area to allow emergency crews access.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12026949\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Moss Landing Power Plant, the site of a battery fire on Jan. 16, in Moss Landing on Feb. 12, 2025. The power plant is a natural gas-fired power station with a large battery storage facility. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Monterey County Sheriff’s Office said Friday afternoon that the order and a road closure had been removed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Officials said the fire was not nearly as big as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">a 2025 fire \u003c/a>at the same Vistra battery storage plant, which burned for days and produced a plume of black smoke that was visible for miles. But some of the batteries damaged in that fire were “heavily involved” in the current blaze, according to North County Fire Protection District Chief Jess Cortez.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The facility has been closed since the January 2025 fire destroyed over half of the approximately 100,000 batteries onsite, according to Vistra. Most of the remaining batteries have been removed and recycled in an ongoing cleanup effort. But about 5,000 are still onsite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Those always have been at 100% capacity energized,” Cortez said during a Friday briefing. “So we actually had a good general idea of what the involvement could be.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cortez said hundreds of batteries damaged during the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">2025 Vistra battery fire\u003c/a> “spontaneously ignited” Friday morning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kazami Brockman with the U.S Environmental Protection Agency told reporters that the agency’s air monitoring sites in the area had not detected concentrations of anything that exceeded healthy levels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the 2025 fire, scientists \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999445/scientists-trace-heavy-metals-spread-by-januarys-huge-battery-fire-near-monterey\">found that concentrations of metals\u003c/a> were between 10 and 10,000 greater than before. Nearby residents complained of nausea and headaches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People do remain concerned,” County Supervisor Glenn Church said. “It is frustrating that it continues to happen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Officials said that they expected the current fire to burn itself out by today. Cortez said the batteries were “in the smoldering stage.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The incident is very dynamic. There could be flare-ups, but that’s to be determined in the future,” Cortez said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s still not clear what caused the 2025 fire or the Friday fire.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a developing story and will be updated. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12026949\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Moss Landing Power Plant, the site of a battery fire on Jan. 16, in Moss Landing on Feb. 12, 2025. The power plant is a natural gas-fired power station with a large battery storage facility.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Monterey County Sheriff’s Office said Friday afternoon that the order and a road closure had been removed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Officials said the fire was not nearly as big as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">a 2025 fire \u003c/a>at the same Vistra battery storage plant, which burned for days and produced a plume of black smoke that was visible for miles. But some of the batteries damaged in that fire were “heavily involved” in the current blaze, according to North County Fire Protection District Chief Jess Cortez.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The facility has been closed since the January 2025 fire destroyed over half of the approximately 100,000 batteries onsite, according to Vistra. Most of the remaining batteries have been removed and recycled in an ongoing cleanup effort. But about 5,000 are still onsite.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Those always have been at 100% capacity energized,” Cortez said during a Friday briefing. “So we actually had a good general idea of what the involvement could be.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cortez said hundreds of batteries damaged during the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">2025 Vistra battery fire\u003c/a> “spontaneously ignited” Friday morning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kazami Brockman with the U.S Environmental Protection Agency told reporters that the agency’s air monitoring sites in the area had not detected concentrations of anything that exceeded healthy levels. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Following the 2025 fire, scientists \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999445/scientists-trace-heavy-metals-spread-by-januarys-huge-battery-fire-near-monterey\">found that concentrations of metals\u003c/a> were between 10 and 10,000 greater than before. Nearby residents complained of nausea and headaches. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Following the 2025 fire, scientists \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999445/scientists-trace-heavy-metals-spread-by-januarys-huge-battery-fire-near-monterey\">found that concentrations of metals\u003c/a> were between 10 and 10,000 greater than before. Nearby residents complained of nausea and headaches. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“People do remain concerned,” County Supervisor Glenn Church said. “It is frustrating that it continues to happen.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Officials said that they expected the current fire to burn itself out by today. Cortez said the batteries were “in the smoldering stage.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Officials said that they expected the current fire to burn itself out by today. Cortez said the batteries were “in the smoldering stage.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The incident is very dynamic. There could be flare-ups, but that’s to be determined in the future,” Cortez said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s still not clear what caused the 2025 fire or the Friday fire.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a developing story and will be updated. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Officials said idle batteries left from the 2025 Moss Landing fire spontaneously ignited Friday. ",
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"title": "Monterey Officials Lift Shelter-in-Place Order, End Road Closure Prompted by Power Plant Fire | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/tag/monterey-county\">Monterey County\u003c/a> officials have lifted a shelter-in-place order prompted by a fire Friday morning at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/moss-landing\">Moss Landing\u003c/a> Power Plant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Firefighters from the North County Fire Protection District were dispatched to the Vistra Energy battery storage after 6:15 a.m., according to a release from the agency and the emergency warning center. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shelter-in-place orders were issued for the surrounding areas and the North Monterey County School District, as the county’s emergency management department coordinated with local, state and federal agencies. Traffic on Highway 1 in the Moss Landing area was impacted, and motorists were asked to avoid the area to allow emergency crews access.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12026949\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/02/250212-ELKHORNSLOUGH-16-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Moss Landing Power Plant, the site of a battery fire on Jan. 16, in Moss Landing on Feb. 12, 2025. The power plant is a natural gas-fired power station with a large battery storage facility. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Monterey County Sheriff’s Office said Friday afternoon that the order and a road closure had been removed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Officials said the fire was not nearly as big as \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">a 2025 fire \u003c/a>at the same Vistra battery storage plant, which burned for days and produced a plume of black smoke that was visible for miles. But some of the batteries damaged in that fire were “heavily involved” in the current blaze, according to North County Fire Protection District Chief Jess Cortez.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The facility has been closed since the January 2025 fire destroyed over half of the approximately 100,000 batteries onsite, according to Vistra. Most of the remaining batteries have been removed and recycled in an ongoing cleanup effort. But about 5,000 are still onsite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Those always have been at 100% capacity energized,” Cortez said during a Friday briefing. “So we actually had a good general idea of what the involvement could be.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cortez said hundreds of batteries damaged during the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022725/massive-fire-monterey-county-battery-plant-spews-toxic-smoke-forces-evacuations\">2025 Vistra battery fire\u003c/a> “spontaneously ignited” Friday morning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kazami Brockman with the U.S Environmental Protection Agency told reporters that the agency’s air monitoring sites in the area had not detected concentrations of anything that exceeded healthy levels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Following the 2025 fire, scientists \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999445/scientists-trace-heavy-metals-spread-by-januarys-huge-battery-fire-near-monterey\">found that concentrations of metals\u003c/a> were between 10 and 10,000 greater than before. Nearby residents complained of nausea and headaches. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“People do remain concerned,” County Supervisor Glenn Church said. “It is frustrating that it continues to happen.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Officials said that they expected the current fire to burn itself out by today. Cortez said the batteries were “in the smoldering stage.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The incident is very dynamic. There could be flare-ups, but that’s to be determined in the future,” Cortez said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s still not clear what caused the 2025 fire or the Friday fire.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a developing story and will be updated. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "california-regulators-unveil-plan-to-ban-new-quartz-countertops-amid-rising-worker-deaths",
"title": "California Regulators Unveil Plan to Ban New Quartz Countertops Amid Rising Worker Deaths",
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"headTitle": "California Regulators Unveil Plan to Ban New Quartz Countertops Amid Rising Worker Deaths | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> workplace regulators pushing to ban the use of a popular countertop material linked to a deadly lung disease released a proposed roadmap, the nation’s first, on Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/doshreg/silica-2026/\">discussion draft\u003c/a> would give fabrication shops nearly six months from the date a final rule goes into effect to phase out their use of artificial stone with more than 1% crystalline silica, common in kitchen and bathroom countertops and other construction surfaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The factory-made slabs, also known as quartz or engineered stone, release ultratoxic silica particles that have sickened more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCDPHP/DEODC/OHB/Pages/essdashboard.aspx\">650 stoneworkers\u003c/a> who inhaled them while cutting or polishing the material, according to the California Department of Public Health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dozens of Latino men, often immigrants who didn’t know about the dangers of handling engineered stone until they got sick, have undergone lung transplants or died from silicosis since 2019. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA officials estimate that without a prohibition about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084910/california-steps-closer-to-ban-on-engineered-stone-after-silicosis-surge\">1,000 more silicosis cases\u003c/a> will develop over the next two years in California, the only state actively tracking the disease in the multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A man's hand is seen resting on a table.\" class=\"wp-image-11969878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jorge Moreno places his hand on a table that he cut at his home in San Francisco on Oct. 17, 2023. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I hope that we will look back at Cal/OSHA’s emergency standard as the beginning of the end of this terrible quartz countertop silicosis epidemic,” said David Michaels, a former head of federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration who teaches at the George Washington University School of Public Health\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Consumers prefer quartz to lower-silica natural stones because it’s cheaper, stain-resistant and designed in attractive palettes. But its skyrocketing popularity has coincided with a deadly silicosis trail among stoneworkers in countries like Israel, Spain, the United Kingdom and Australia, which became the first to prohibit the material’s import, supply and fabrication in 2024. Australia’s ban triggered cost increases and supply-chain delays in the construction industry, according to some reports, but warnings that residential and commercial development would collapse have not proven to be true. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some large manufacturers developed alternatives made with amorphous silica, which is considered safer for stonecutters. Public health experts like Michaels believe that California’s proposed ban would encourage more big-box stores, designers and consumers to opt for safer alternatives for the workers who shape and install countertops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Banning fabrication and installation of artificial stone products in California is the first step in stopping this deadly work nationally,” Michaels said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The public has until Sept. 30 to comment on Cal/OSHA’s draft regulation before the agency can submit it to an occupational safety board for final approval, a process that could take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under the draft emergency regulation, fabrication shops would be required to notify workers in English and Spanish that engineered stone with crystalline silica is dangerous and prohibited. Cal/OSHA inspectors could halt operations at businesses that work on this material after a two-month grace period. Employers would have 180 days to use up inventory they already purchased or contracted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some employers worry they’ll need more time to adjust, as artificial stone makes up a majority of their business. A countertop sold today may be installed four to eight months from now, said Laurie Weber, who heads the International Surface Fabricators Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the prohibition reaches repair work, warranty work, remnants and material already in distribution, then 180 days isn’t a wind-down period, it’s a cliff,” wrote Weber in an e-mail. “Slabs already ordered and in transit aren’t in anyone’s shop yet, and no one has said who absorbs that cost.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Industry representatives have pointed out that banning artificial stone could raise prices for building and remodeling, and add expenses for fabrication shop owners who have already \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079653/california-fabricators-face-artificial-stone-ban-as-silicosis-cases-mount\">spent heavily\u003c/a> to protect their workers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084039\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Eleazar Resendiz Cortes’ wife shows scans of his chest that revealed particles around his lungs linked to his silicosis diagnosis, in their home in Bakersfield, California, on May 14, 2026. (Julie Leopo for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nate Kolenski, president of Black Tops Countertop Surfaces in Sacramento, told Cal/OSHA staffers at a July public meeting that his company has two years’ worth of inventory already stockpiled, valued at $1 million or less. He said the state should consider a buy-back program, akin to those related to guns, to minimize financial losses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the state wants to ban this product, they should be buying back our inventory because we’ll have no use for it. It will be worthless, and thousands of fabricators will have the same situation with inventory and capital that’s sitting out there that they won’t get,” said Kolenski, who opposes a prohibition. “Plus we’ll have to buy the new product.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state’s plan comes as major manufacturers of high-silica quartz have pushed for a bill in Congress that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069714/as-california-silicosis-cases-rise-engineered-stone-industry-seeks-immunity-in-dc\">would dismiss hundreds\u003c/a> of lawsuits against them by sick stoneworkers seeking damages. Most of the handful of cases that have reached trial resulted in multimillion-dollar verdicts for workers or their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The largest U.S. manufacturer, Cambria, fought efforts by worker advocates and doctors to get California to take steps toward a prohibition, maintaining that their products can be handled safely if the proper precautions are followed. But growing evidence shows that the dust generated when cutting or polishing artificial stone is so toxic that it can sicken people at sophisticated fabrication shops following Cal/OSHA’s current rules, which prohibit dry cutting of the material and require advanced respiratory protection. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A representative for Cambria did not immediately return a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> workplace regulators pushing to ban the use of a popular countertop material linked to a deadly lung disease released a proposed roadmap, the nation’s first, on Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> workplace regulators pushing to ban the use of a popular countertop material linked to a deadly lung disease released a proposed roadmap, the nation’s first, on Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/doshreg/silica-2026/\">discussion draft\u003c/a> would give fabrication shops nearly six months from the date a final rule goes into effect to phase out their use of artificial stone with more than 1% crystalline silica, common in kitchen and bathroom countertops and other construction surfaces.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/doshreg/silica-2026/\">discussion draft\u003c/a> would give fabrication shops nearly six months from the date a final rule goes into effect to phase out their use of artificial stone with more than 1% crystalline silica, common in kitchen and bathroom countertops and other construction surfaces.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The factory-made slabs, also known as quartz or engineered stone, release ultratoxic silica particles that have sickened more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCDPHP/DEODC/OHB/Pages/essdashboard.aspx\">650 stoneworkers\u003c/a> who inhaled them while cutting or polishing the material, according to the California Department of Public Health.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The factory-made slabs, also known as quartz or engineered stone, release ultratoxic silica particles that have sickened more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCDPHP/DEODC/OHB/Pages/essdashboard.aspx\">650 stoneworkers\u003c/a> who inhaled them while cutting or polishing the material, according to the California Department of Public Health.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Dozens of Latino men, often immigrants who didn’t know about the dangers of handling engineered stone until they got sick, have undergone lung transplants or died from silicosis since 2019. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Dozens of Latino men, often immigrants who didn’t know about the dangers of handling engineered stone until they got sick, have undergone lung transplants or died from silicosis since 2019. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA officials estimate that without a prohibition about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084910/california-steps-closer-to-ban-on-engineered-stone-after-silicosis-surge\">1,000 more silicosis cases\u003c/a> will develop over the next two years in California, the only state actively tracking the disease in the multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA officials estimate that without a prohibition about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084910/california-steps-closer-to-ban-on-engineered-stone-after-silicosis-surge\">1,000 more silicosis cases\u003c/a> will develop over the next two years in California, the only state actively tracking the disease in the multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A man's hand is seen resting on a table.\" class=\"wp-image-11969878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jorge Moreno places his hand on a table that he cut at his home in San Francisco on Oct. 17, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A man's hand is seen resting on a table.\" class=\"wp-image-11969878\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jorge Moreno places his hand on a table that he cut at his home in San Francisco on Oct. 17, 2023.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I hope that we will look back at Cal/OSHA’s emergency standard as the beginning of the end of this terrible quartz countertop silicosis epidemic,” said David Michaels, a former head of federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration who teaches at the George Washington University School of Public Health\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I hope that we will look back at Cal/OSHA’s emergency standard as the beginning of the end of this terrible quartz countertop silicosis epidemic,” said David Michaels, a former head of federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration who teaches at the George Washington University School of Public Health\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Consumers prefer quartz to lower-silica natural stones because it’s cheaper, stain-resistant and designed in attractive palettes. But its skyrocketing popularity has coincided with a deadly silicosis trail among stoneworkers in countries like Israel, Spain, the United Kingdom and Australia, which became the first to prohibit the material’s import, supply and fabrication in 2024. Australia’s ban triggered cost increases and supply-chain delays in the construction industry, according to some reports, but warnings that residential and commercial development would collapse have not proven to be true. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Consumers prefer quartz to lower-silica natural stones because it’s cheaper, stain-resistant and designed in attractive palettes. But its skyrocketing popularity has coincided with a deadly silicosis trail among stoneworkers in countries like Israel, Spain, the United Kingdom and Australia, which became the first to prohibit the material’s import, supply and fabrication in 2024. Australia’s ban triggered cost increases and supply-chain delays in the construction industry, according to some reports, but warnings that residential and commercial development would collapse have not proven to be true. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some large manufacturers developed alternatives made with amorphous silica, which is considered safer for stonecutters. Public health experts like Michaels believe that California’s proposed ban would encourage more big-box stores, designers and consumers to opt for safer alternatives for the workers who shape and install countertops.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some large manufacturers developed alternatives made with amorphous silica, which is considered safer for stonecutters. Public health experts like Michaels believe that California’s proposed ban would encourage more big-box stores, designers and consumers to opt for safer alternatives for the workers who shape and install countertops.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Banning fabrication and installation of artificial stone products in California is the first step in stopping this deadly work nationally,” Michaels said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Banning fabrication and installation of artificial stone products in California is the first step in stopping this deadly work nationally,” Michaels said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The public has until Sept. 30 to comment on Cal/OSHA’s draft regulation before the agency can submit it to an occupational safety board for final approval, a process that could take months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The public has until Sept. 30 to comment on Cal/OSHA’s draft regulation before the agency can submit it to an occupational safety board for final approval, a process that could take months. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Under the draft emergency regulation, fabrication shops would be required to notify workers in English and Spanish that engineered stone with crystalline silica is dangerous and prohibited. Cal/OSHA inspectors could halt operations at businesses that work on this material after a two-month grace period. Employers would have 180 days to use up inventory they already purchased or contracted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Under the draft emergency regulation, fabrication shops would be required to notify workers in English and Spanish that engineered stone with crystalline silica is dangerous and prohibited. Cal/OSHA inspectors could halt operations at businesses that work on this material after a two-month grace period. Employers would have 180 days to use up inventory they already purchased or contracted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some employers worry they’ll need more time to adjust, as artificial stone makes up a majority of their business. A countertop sold today may be installed four to eight months from now, said Laurie Weber, who heads the International Surface Fabricators Association.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some employers worry they’ll need more time to adjust, as artificial stone makes up a majority of their business. A countertop sold today may be installed four to eight months from now, said Laurie Weber, who heads the International Surface Fabricators Association.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If the prohibition reaches repair work, warranty work, remnants and material already in distribution, then 180 days isn’t a wind-down period, it’s a cliff,” wrote Weber in an e-mail. “Slabs already ordered and in transit aren’t in anyone’s shop yet, and no one has said who absorbs that cost.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If the prohibition reaches repair work, warranty work, remnants and material already in distribution, then 180 days isn’t a wind-down period, it’s a cliff,” wrote Weber in an e-mail. “Slabs already ordered and in transit aren’t in anyone’s shop yet, and no one has said who absorbs that cost.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Industry representatives have pointed out that banning artificial stone could raise prices for building and remodeling, and add expenses for fabrication shop owners who have already \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079653/california-fabricators-face-artificial-stone-ban-as-silicosis-cases-mount\">spent heavily\u003c/a> to protect their workers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Industry representatives have pointed out that banning artificial stone could raise prices for building and remodeling, and add expenses for fabrication shop owners who have already \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079653/california-fabricators-face-artificial-stone-ban-as-silicosis-cases-mount\">spent heavily\u003c/a> to protect their workers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084039\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Eleazar Resendiz Cortes’ wife shows scans of his chest that revealed particles around his lungs linked to his silicosis diagnosis, in their home in Bakersfield, California, on May 14, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Julie Leopo for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084039\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Eleazar Resendiz Cortes’ wife shows scans of his chest that revealed particles around his lungs linked to his silicosis diagnosis, in their home in Bakersfield, California, on May 14, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Julie Leopo for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nate Kolenski, president of Black Tops Countertop Surfaces in Sacramento, told Cal/OSHA staffers at a July public meeting that his company has two years’ worth of inventory already stockpiled, valued at $1 million or less. He said the state should consider a buy-back program, akin to those related to guns, to minimize financial losses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nate Kolenski, president of Black Tops Countertop Surfaces in Sacramento, told Cal/OSHA staffers at a July public meeting that his company has two years’ worth of inventory already stockpiled, valued at $1 million or less. He said the state should consider a buy-back program, akin to those related to guns, to minimize financial losses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“If the state wants to ban this product, they should be buying back our inventory because we’ll have no use for it. It will be worthless, and thousands of fabricators will have the same situation with inventory and capital that’s sitting out there that they won’t get,” said Kolenski, who opposes a prohibition. “Plus we’ll have to buy the new product.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“If the state wants to ban this product, they should be buying back our inventory because we’ll have no use for it. It will be worthless, and thousands of fabricators will have the same situation with inventory and capital that’s sitting out there that they won’t get,” said Kolenski, who opposes a prohibition. “Plus we’ll have to buy the new product.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The state’s plan comes as major manufacturers of high-silica quartz have pushed for a bill in Congress that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069714/as-california-silicosis-cases-rise-engineered-stone-industry-seeks-immunity-in-dc\">would dismiss hundreds\u003c/a> of lawsuits against them by sick stoneworkers seeking damages. Most of the handful of cases that have reached trial resulted in multimillion-dollar verdicts for workers or their families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The state’s plan comes as major manufacturers of high-silica quartz have pushed for a bill in Congress that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069714/as-california-silicosis-cases-rise-engineered-stone-industry-seeks-immunity-in-dc\">would dismiss hundreds\u003c/a> of lawsuits against them by sick stoneworkers seeking damages. Most of the handful of cases that have reached trial resulted in multimillion-dollar verdicts for workers or their families.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The largest U.S. manufacturer, Cambria, fought efforts by worker advocates and doctors to get California to take steps toward a prohibition, maintaining that their products can be handled safely if the proper precautions are followed. But growing evidence shows that the dust generated when cutting or polishing artificial stone is so toxic that it can sicken people at sophisticated fabrication shops following Cal/OSHA’s current rules, which prohibit dry cutting of the material and require advanced respiratory protection. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The largest U.S. manufacturer, Cambria, fought efforts by worker advocates and doctors to get California to take steps toward a prohibition, maintaining that their products can be handled safely if the proper precautions are followed. But growing evidence shows that the dust generated when cutting or polishing artificial stone is so toxic that it can sicken people at sophisticated fabrication shops following Cal/OSHA’s current rules, which prohibit dry cutting of the material and require advanced respiratory protection. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A representative for Cambria did not immediately return a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Cal/OSHA draft would give fabrication shops nearly six months to phase out inventory of the popular countertop material, which is linked to a deadly lung disease among stonecutters. ",
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"title": "California Regulators Unveil Plan to Ban New Quartz Countertops Amid Rising Worker Deaths | KQED",
"description": "The Cal/OSHA draft would give fabrication shops nearly six months to phase out inventory of the popular countertop material, which is linked to a deadly lung disease among stonecutters. ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> workplace regulators pushing to ban the use of a popular countertop material linked to a deadly lung disease released a proposed roadmap, the nation’s first, on Wednesday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/doshreg/silica-2026/\">discussion draft\u003c/a> would give fabrication shops nearly six months from the date a final rule goes into effect to phase out their use of artificial stone with more than 1% crystalline silica, common in kitchen and bathroom countertops and other construction surfaces.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The factory-made slabs, also known as quartz or engineered stone, release ultratoxic silica particles that have sickened more than \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CCDPHP/DEODC/OHB/Pages/essdashboard.aspx\">650 stoneworkers\u003c/a> who inhaled them while cutting or polishing the material, according to the California Department of Public Health.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Dozens of Latino men, often immigrants who didn’t know about the dangers of handling engineered stone until they got sick, have undergone lung transplants or died from silicosis since 2019. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Cal/OSHA officials estimate that without a prohibition about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12084910/california-steps-closer-to-ban-on-engineered-stone-after-silicosis-surge\">1,000 more silicosis cases\u003c/a> will develop over the next two years in California, the only state actively tracking the disease in the multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg\" alt=\"A man's hand is seen resting on a table.\" class=\"wp-image-11969878\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/12/231017-StonecutterSilicosis-002-BL-qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jorge Moreno places his hand on a table that he cut at his home in San Francisco on Oct. 17, 2023. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I hope that we will look back at Cal/OSHA’s emergency standard as the beginning of the end of this terrible quartz countertop silicosis epidemic,” said David Michaels, a former head of federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration who teaches at the George Washington University School of Public Health\u003cem>.\u003c/em> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Consumers prefer quartz to lower-silica natural stones because it’s cheaper, stain-resistant and designed in attractive palettes. But its skyrocketing popularity has coincided with a deadly silicosis trail among stoneworkers in countries like Israel, Spain, the United Kingdom and Australia, which became the first to prohibit the material’s import, supply and fabrication in 2024. Australia’s ban triggered cost increases and supply-chain delays in the construction industry, according to some reports, but warnings that residential and commercial development would collapse have not proven to be true. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some large manufacturers developed alternatives made with amorphous silica, which is considered safer for stonecutters. Public health experts like Michaels believe that California’s proposed ban would encourage more big-box stores, designers and consumers to opt for safer alternatives for the workers who shape and install countertops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Banning fabrication and installation of artificial stone products in California is the first step in stopping this deadly work nationally,” Michaels said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The public has until Sept. 30 to comment on Cal/OSHA’s draft regulation before the agency can submit it to an occupational safety board for final approval, a process that could take months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Under the draft emergency regulation, fabrication shops would be required to notify workers in English and Spanish that engineered stone with crystalline silica is dangerous and prohibited. Cal/OSHA inspectors could halt operations at businesses that work on this material after a two-month grace period. Employers would have 180 days to use up inventory they already purchased or contracted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some employers worry they’ll need more time to adjust, as artificial stone makes up a majority of their business. A countertop sold today may be installed four to eight months from now, said Laurie Weber, who heads the International Surface Fabricators Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the prohibition reaches repair work, warranty work, remnants and material already in distribution, then 180 days isn’t a wind-down period, it’s a cliff,” wrote Weber in an e-mail. “Slabs already ordered and in transit aren’t in anyone’s shop yet, and no one has said who absorbs that cost.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Industry representatives have pointed out that banning artificial stone could raise prices for building and remodeling, and add expenses for fabrication shop owners who have already \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12079653/california-fabricators-face-artificial-stone-ban-as-silicosis-cases-mount\">spent heavily\u003c/a> to protect their workers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12084039\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/ELEAZAR-RESENDIZ-CORTES-KQED-LEOPO-2026-1289-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Eleazar Resendiz Cortes’ wife shows scans of his chest that revealed particles around his lungs linked to his silicosis diagnosis, in their home in Bakersfield, California, on May 14, 2026. (Julie Leopo for KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nate Kolenski, president of Black Tops Countertop Surfaces in Sacramento, told Cal/OSHA staffers at a July public meeting that his company has two years’ worth of inventory already stockpiled, valued at $1 million or less. He said the state should consider a buy-back program, akin to those related to guns, to minimize financial losses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“If the state wants to ban this product, they should be buying back our inventory because we’ll have no use for it. It will be worthless, and thousands of fabricators will have the same situation with inventory and capital that’s sitting out there that they won’t get,” said Kolenski, who opposes a prohibition. “Plus we’ll have to buy the new product.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The state’s plan comes as major manufacturers of high-silica quartz have pushed for a bill in Congress that \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069714/as-california-silicosis-cases-rise-engineered-stone-industry-seeks-immunity-in-dc\">would dismiss hundreds\u003c/a> of lawsuits against them by sick stoneworkers seeking damages. Most of the handful of cases that have reached trial resulted in multimillion-dollar verdicts for workers or their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The largest U.S. manufacturer, Cambria, fought efforts by worker advocates and doctors to get California to take steps toward a prohibition, maintaining that their products can be handled safely if the proper precautions are followed. But growing evidence shows that the dust generated when cutting or polishing artificial stone is so toxic that it can sicken people at sophisticated fabrication shops following Cal/OSHA’s current rules, which prohibit dry cutting of the material and require advanced respiratory protection. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A representative for Cambria did not immediately return a request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "california-could-join-handful-of-states-that-cover-cancer-hair-loss-treatment",
"title": "California Could Join Handful of States That Cover Cancer Hair-Loss Treatment",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> mom Anna Karrer Manley remembers one of the hardest conversations she had two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She was 45 and had recently learned about her breast cancer diagnosis. She needed to share the news with her two kids, then ages 6 and 11, to prepare them for her battle with the disease — six rounds of chemotherapy and their most recognizable side effect, hair loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“My son had just started a new school in sixth grade, and he sheepishly asked me, ‘So, Mom, are you still gonna come to pick up?’” Karrer Manley said. “[My daughter] just cried because she didn’t want Mommy to change\u003cem>.\u003c/em>”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after her diagnosis, Karrer Manley joined a breast cancer patient support group, \u003ca href=\"https://bayareayoungsurvivors.org/\">Bay Area Young Survivors\u003c/a>, where she learned about scalp cooling, an FDA-cleared treatment that helps patients keep their hair through cooling caps, which can be worn before, during and after chemotherapy infusions. The technology helps restrict blood flow and reduce the amount of medication that reaches the hair follicles. The vast majority of people who use scalp cooling, like Karrer Manley, are battling breast cancer, according to \u003ca href=\"https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO.2021.39.15_suppl.e18739\">research\u003c/a> presented at the American Society of Clinical Oncology in 2021. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099645\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ines (from left), Stacey Manley, Etienne, Anna Karrer Manley, and their chemo puppy, Asa, at their home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099642\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099642\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley shows strands of her hair that grew back darker and curlier after falling out during chemotherapy. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099641\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099641\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley holds a photo of herself wearing a cold cap at her home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The technology wasn’t covered through insurance, but Karrer Manley said she and her husband scraped around $5,000 to pay for the treatment. (She returned to work part time during treatment.) The cooling caps allowed her to keep 70% of her hair, she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her vibrant complexion and beyond-shoulder-length hair belie the difficult journey of survival — and advocacy — she’s undertaken. Karrer Manley has since joined survivors, medical professionals and public health advocates calling for the passage of \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1682\">AB 1682\u003c/a>, which is currently on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk, that aims to make automated mechanical scalp-cooling devices more accessible, beginning in 2027.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To move about the world during chemo treatment with your hair and not everybody realizing what’s going on with you or staring at you, I think that’s really meaningful and important, and it has such an impact on your mental health,” said Karrer Manley, sitting at her dining room table alongside Asa, the “chemo puppy” she adopted for treatment support. “You know, cancer takes so much from you, it really robs so much of you, but at least I had a little bit of hair.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At a June \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1682\">hearing\u003c/a> in Sacramento, the bill’s co-author Assemblymember Gregg Hart of Santa Barbara said the measure – which resembles \u003ca href=\"https://rapunzelproject.org/\">similar\u003c/a> laws in five states (Connecticut, Louisiana, Maryland, New York and West Virginia) — would preserve “dignity, confidence and quality of life” for Californians fighting cancer, regardless of their ability to pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The amended proposal — which state legislators passed unanimously — applies to large group insurers and Medi-Cal plans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In April, the California Health Benefits Review Program, a nonpartisan \u003ca href=\"https://www.chbrp.org/about\">group\u003c/a> tasked with responding to the state Legislature’s request for independent review of all proposed bills related to health benefits, reviewed an earlier, broader draft of AB 1682. The original legislation would have applied to \u003cem>all\u003c/em> state-regulated health insurance, but would have resulted in 680 additional enrollees receiving scalp cooling, for an additional $4 million in annual premiums paid by employers and enrollees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Janet Coffman, a member of the benefits review program and a health policy expert with UCSF, said the technology has a relatively small fiscal impact (unlike, for example, proposed insurance \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Wellness/halle-berry-criticizes-gov-gavin-newsom-devaluing-women/story?id=128104843\">mandates\u003c/a> for pre- and postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy that Newsom vetoed in 2025, calling it “too far-reaching”).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s only for people who are actively undergoing cancer treatment. And they’re really only used with a subset of cancers,” Coffman said. “The marginal cost is pretty small.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099646\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley (center) with her children Etienne (left) and Ines (right) at their home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099647\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099647\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley walks her dog, Asa, whom she got while she was undergoing chemotherapy, near her home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099639\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099639\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Cookbooks, including The Cancer-Fighting Kitchen: Nourishing, Big-Flavor Recipes for Cancer Treatment and Recovery, in Anna Karrer Manley’s home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The insurance lobby group California Association of Health Plans has opposed the measure, arguing that Californians are facing a health care affordability crisis, citing a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/06/california-health-tax-medi-cal-premiums/\">health tax redesign\u003c/a> recently approved by the governor that the California Medical Association, a physician advocacy group, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmadocs.org/newsroom/news/view/cma-warns-2026-27-state-budget-will-increase-health-insurance-costs\">warned\u003c/a> could pass through to consumers in the form of higher premiums.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At the same time, six additional health care mandates, including AB 1682, have been sent to the governor for his signature that will altogether increase premiums by more than $170 million, piling on even more health care costs for working families across the state,” the CAHP said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The governor’s office declined to comment on bills pending action from Newsom by a Sept. 30 deadline. He is no stranger to the disease, as he has previously \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/02/04/gavin-newsom-assisted-suicide\">spoken\u003c/a> about being with his mother during her assisted suicide in 2002 after her yearslong battle with breast cancer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Karrer Manley hopes that he will advocate for supportive cancer care for people who otherwise cannot afford it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are just too many people impacted by cancer, and yet the fiscal impact is so small,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> mom Anna Karrer Manley remembers one of the hardest conversations she had two years ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She was 45 and had recently learned about her breast cancer diagnosis. She needed to share the news with her two kids, then ages 6 and 11, to prepare them for her battle with the disease — six rounds of chemotherapy and their most recognizable side effect, hair loss. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“My son had just started a new school in sixth grade, and he sheepishly asked me, ‘So, Mom, are you still gonna come to pick up?’” Karrer Manley said. “[My daughter] just cried because she didn’t want Mommy to change\u003cem>.\u003c/em>”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon after her diagnosis, Karrer Manley joined a breast cancer patient support group, \u003ca href=\"https://bayareayoungsurvivors.org/\">Bay Area Young Survivors\u003c/a>, where she learned about scalp cooling, an FDA-cleared treatment that helps patients keep their hair through cooling caps, which can be worn before, during and after chemotherapy infusions. The technology helps restrict blood flow and reduce the amount of medication that reaches the hair follicles. The vast majority of people who use scalp cooling, like Karrer Manley, are battling breast cancer, according to \u003ca href=\"https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO.2021.39.15_suppl.e18739\">research\u003c/a> presented at the American Society of Clinical Oncology in 2021. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The technology wasn’t covered through insurance, but Karrer Manley said she and her husband scraped around $5,000 to pay for the treatment. (She returned to work part time during treatment.) The cooling caps allowed her to keep 70% of her hair, she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The technology wasn’t covered through insurance, but Karrer Manley said she and her husband scraped around $5,000 to pay for the treatment. (She returned to work part time during treatment.) The cooling caps allowed her to keep 70% of her hair, she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Her vibrant complexion and beyond-shoulder-length hair belie the difficult journey of survival — and advocacy — she’s undertaken. Karrer Manley has since joined survivors, medical professionals and public health advocates calling for the passage of \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1682\">AB 1682\u003c/a>, which is currently on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk, that aims to make automated mechanical scalp-cooling devices more accessible, beginning in 2027.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Her vibrant complexion and beyond-shoulder-length hair belie the difficult journey of survival — and advocacy — she’s undertaken. Karrer Manley has since joined survivors, medical professionals and public health advocates calling for the passage of \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1682\">AB 1682\u003c/a>, which is currently on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk, that aims to make automated mechanical scalp-cooling devices more accessible, beginning in 2027.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“To move about the world during chemo treatment with your hair and not everybody realizing what’s going on with you or staring at you, I think that’s really meaningful and important, and it has such an impact on your mental health,” said Karrer Manley, sitting at her dining room table alongside Asa, the “chemo puppy” she adopted for treatment support. “You know, cancer takes so much from you, it really robs so much of you, but at least I had a little bit of hair.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“To move about the world during chemo treatment with your hair and not everybody realizing what’s going on with you or staring at you, I think that’s really meaningful and important, and it has such an impact on your mental health,” said Karrer Manley, sitting at her dining room table alongside Asa, the “chemo puppy” she adopted for treatment support. “You know, cancer takes so much from you, it really robs so much of you, but at least I had a little bit of hair.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At a June \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1682\">hearing\u003c/a> in Sacramento, the bill’s co-author Assemblymember Gregg Hart of Santa Barbara said the measure – which resembles \u003ca href=\"https://rapunzelproject.org/\">similar\u003c/a> laws in five states (Connecticut, Louisiana, Maryland, New York and West Virginia) — would preserve “dignity, confidence and quality of life” for Californians fighting cancer, regardless of their ability to pay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At a June \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1682\">hearing\u003c/a> in Sacramento, the bill’s co-author Assemblymember Gregg Hart of Santa Barbara said the measure – which resembles \u003ca href=\"https://rapunzelproject.org/\">similar\u003c/a> laws in five states (Connecticut, Louisiana, Maryland, New York and West Virginia) — would preserve “dignity, confidence and quality of life” for Californians fighting cancer, regardless of their ability to pay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The amended proposal — which state legislators passed unanimously — applies to large group insurers and Medi-Cal plans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In April, the California Health Benefits Review Program, a nonpartisan \u003ca href=\"https://www.chbrp.org/about\">group\u003c/a> tasked with responding to the state Legislature’s request for independent review of all proposed bills related to health benefits, reviewed an earlier, broader draft of AB 1682. The original legislation would have applied to \u003cem>all\u003c/em> state-regulated health insurance, but would have resulted in 680 additional enrollees receiving scalp cooling, for an additional $4 million in annual premiums paid by employers and enrollees.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In April, the California Health Benefits Review Program, a nonpartisan \u003ca href=\"https://www.chbrp.org/about\">group\u003c/a> tasked with responding to the state Legislature’s request for independent review of all proposed bills related to health benefits, reviewed an earlier, broader draft of AB 1682. The original legislation would have applied to \u003cem>all\u003c/em> state-regulated health insurance, but would have resulted in 680 additional enrollees receiving scalp cooling, for an additional $4 million in annual premiums paid by employers and enrollees.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Janet Coffman, a member of the benefits review program and a health policy expert with UCSF, said the technology has a relatively small fiscal impact (unlike, for example, proposed insurance \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Wellness/halle-berry-criticizes-gov-gavin-newsom-devaluing-women/story?id=128104843\">mandates\u003c/a> for pre- and postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy that Newsom vetoed in 2025, calling it “too far-reaching”).\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Janet Coffman, a member of the benefits review program and a health policy expert with UCSF, said the technology has a relatively small fiscal impact (unlike, for example, proposed insurance \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Wellness/halle-berry-criticizes-gov-gavin-newsom-devaluing-women/story?id=128104843\">mandates\u003c/a> for pre- and postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy that Newsom vetoed in 2025, calling it “too far-reaching”).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s only for people who are actively undergoing cancer treatment. And they’re really only used with a subset of cancers,” Coffman said. “The marginal cost is pretty small.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The insurance lobby group California Association of Health Plans has opposed the measure, arguing that Californians are facing a health care affordability crisis, citing a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/06/california-health-tax-medi-cal-premiums/\">health tax redesign\u003c/a> recently approved by the governor that the California Medical Association, a physician advocacy group, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmadocs.org/newsroom/news/view/cma-warns-2026-27-state-budget-will-increase-health-insurance-costs\">warned\u003c/a> could pass through to consumers in the form of higher premiums.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The insurance lobby group California Association of Health Plans has opposed the measure, arguing that Californians are facing a health care affordability crisis, citing a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/06/california-health-tax-medi-cal-premiums/\">health tax redesign\u003c/a> recently approved by the governor that the California Medical Association, a physician advocacy group, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmadocs.org/newsroom/news/view/cma-warns-2026-27-state-budget-will-increase-health-insurance-costs\">warned\u003c/a> could pass through to consumers in the form of higher premiums.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“At the same time, six additional health care mandates, including AB 1682, have been sent to the governor for his signature that will altogether increase premiums by more than $170 million, piling on even more health care costs for working families across the state,” the CAHP said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“At the same time, six additional health care mandates, including AB 1682, have been sent to the governor for his signature that will altogether increase premiums by more than $170 million, piling on even more health care costs for working families across the state,” the CAHP said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The governor’s office declined to comment on bills pending action from Newsom by a Sept. 30 deadline. He is no stranger to the disease, as he has previously \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/02/04/gavin-newsom-assisted-suicide\">spoken\u003c/a> about being with his mother during her assisted suicide in 2002 after her yearslong battle with breast cancer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The governor’s office declined to comment on bills pending action from Newsom by a Sept. 30 deadline. He is no stranger to the disease, as he has previously \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/02/04/gavin-newsom-assisted-suicide\">spoken\u003c/a> about being with his mother during her assisted suicide in 2002 after her yearslong battle with breast cancer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Karrer Manley hopes that he will advocate for supportive cancer care for people who otherwise cannot afford it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There are just too many people impacted by cancer, and yet the fiscal impact is so small,” she said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“There are just too many people impacted by cancer, and yet the fiscal impact is so small,” she said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "If the measure becomes law, it would require Medi-Cal and other large group health plans to cover scalp-cooling treatments.",
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"title": "California Could Join Handful of States That Cover Cancer Hair-Loss Treatment | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> mom Anna Karrer Manley remembers one of the hardest conversations she had two years ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She was 45 and had recently learned about her breast cancer diagnosis. She needed to share the news with her two kids, then ages 6 and 11, to prepare them for her battle with the disease — six rounds of chemotherapy and their most recognizable side effect, hair loss. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“My son had just started a new school in sixth grade, and he sheepishly asked me, ‘So, Mom, are you still gonna come to pick up?’” Karrer Manley said. “[My daughter] just cried because she didn’t want Mommy to change\u003cem>.\u003c/em>”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after her diagnosis, Karrer Manley joined a breast cancer patient support group, \u003ca href=\"https://bayareayoungsurvivors.org/\">Bay Area Young Survivors\u003c/a>, where she learned about scalp cooling, an FDA-cleared treatment that helps patients keep their hair through cooling caps, which can be worn before, during and after chemotherapy infusions. The technology helps restrict blood flow and reduce the amount of medication that reaches the hair follicles. The vast majority of people who use scalp cooling, like Karrer Manley, are battling breast cancer, according to \u003ca href=\"https://ascopubs.org/doi/10.1200/JCO.2021.39.15_suppl.e18739\">research\u003c/a> presented at the American Society of Clinical Oncology in 2021. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099645\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-46-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ines (from left), Stacey Manley, Etienne, Anna Karrer Manley, and their chemo puppy, Asa, at their home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099642\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099642\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-27-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley shows strands of her hair that grew back darker and curlier after falling out during chemotherapy. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099641\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099641\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-26-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley holds a photo of herself wearing a cold cap at her home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The technology wasn’t covered through insurance, but Karrer Manley said she and her husband scraped around $5,000 to pay for the treatment. (She returned to work part time during treatment.) The cooling caps allowed her to keep 70% of her hair, she said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Her vibrant complexion and beyond-shoulder-length hair belie the difficult journey of survival — and advocacy — she’s undertaken. Karrer Manley has since joined survivors, medical professionals and public health advocates calling for the passage of \u003ca href=\"https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1682\">AB 1682\u003c/a>, which is currently on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk, that aims to make automated mechanical scalp-cooling devices more accessible, beginning in 2027.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“To move about the world during chemo treatment with your hair and not everybody realizing what’s going on with you or staring at you, I think that’s really meaningful and important, and it has such an impact on your mental health,” said Karrer Manley, sitting at her dining room table alongside Asa, the “chemo puppy” she adopted for treatment support. “You know, cancer takes so much from you, it really robs so much of you, but at least I had a little bit of hair.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At a June \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab1682\">hearing\u003c/a> in Sacramento, the bill’s co-author Assemblymember Gregg Hart of Santa Barbara said the measure – which resembles \u003ca href=\"https://rapunzelproject.org/\">similar\u003c/a> laws in five states (Connecticut, Louisiana, Maryland, New York and West Virginia) — would preserve “dignity, confidence and quality of life” for Californians fighting cancer, regardless of their ability to pay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The amended proposal — which state legislators passed unanimously — applies to large group insurers and Medi-Cal plans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In April, the California Health Benefits Review Program, a nonpartisan \u003ca href=\"https://www.chbrp.org/about\">group\u003c/a> tasked with responding to the state Legislature’s request for independent review of all proposed bills related to health benefits, reviewed an earlier, broader draft of AB 1682. The original legislation would have applied to \u003cem>all\u003c/em> state-regulated health insurance, but would have resulted in 680 additional enrollees receiving scalp cooling, for an additional $4 million in annual premiums paid by employers and enrollees.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Janet Coffman, a member of the benefits review program and a health policy expert with UCSF, said the technology has a relatively small fiscal impact (unlike, for example, proposed insurance \u003ca href=\"https://abcnews.com/GMA/Wellness/halle-berry-criticizes-gov-gavin-newsom-devaluing-women/story?id=128104843\">mandates\u003c/a> for pre- and postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy that Newsom vetoed in 2025, calling it “too far-reaching”).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s only for people who are actively undergoing cancer treatment. And they’re really only used with a subset of cancers,” Coffman said. “The marginal cost is pretty small.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099646\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-57-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley (center) with her children Etienne (left) and Ines (right) at their home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099647\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099647\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-69-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Anna Karrer Manley walks her dog, Asa, whom she got while she was undergoing chemotherapy, near her home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12099639\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099639\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260913-CancerScalpTreatment-NG-19-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Cookbooks, including The Cancer-Fighting Kitchen: Nourishing, Big-Flavor Recipes for Cancer Treatment and Recovery, in Anna Karrer Manley’s home in Oakland on Sept. 13, 2026. (Nina Glick/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The insurance lobby group California Association of Health Plans has opposed the measure, arguing that Californians are facing a health care affordability crisis, citing a \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/health/2026/06/california-health-tax-medi-cal-premiums/\">health tax redesign\u003c/a> recently approved by the governor that the California Medical Association, a physician advocacy group, has \u003ca href=\"https://www.cmadocs.org/newsroom/news/view/cma-warns-2026-27-state-budget-will-increase-health-insurance-costs\">warned\u003c/a> could pass through to consumers in the form of higher premiums.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“At the same time, six additional health care mandates, including AB 1682, have been sent to the governor for his signature that will altogether increase premiums by more than $170 million, piling on even more health care costs for working families across the state,” the CAHP said in a statement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The governor’s office declined to comment on bills pending action from Newsom by a Sept. 30 deadline. He is no stranger to the disease, as he has previously \u003ca href=\"https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2026/02/04/gavin-newsom-assisted-suicide\">spoken\u003c/a> about being with his mother during her assisted suicide in 2002 after her yearslong battle with breast cancer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Karrer Manley hopes that he will advocate for supportive cancer care for people who otherwise cannot afford it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There are just too many people impacted by cancer, and yet the fiscal impact is so small,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "this-bay-area-immigrant-rights-organization-is-helping-filipino-caregivers-care-for-themselves",
"title": "This Bay Area Immigrant Rights Organization Is Helping Filipino Caregivers Care for Themselves",
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"headTitle": "This Bay Area Immigrant Rights Organization Is Helping Filipino Caregivers Care for Themselves | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This project was produced jointly by KQED and CatchLight as part of the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"http://catchlight.io/mental-health\">\u003cem>mental health visual desk initiative.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s only obligation was to focus on himself. At least for one day. In the bright orange office of Filipino Advocates for Justice (FAJ), where he was attending a special wellness meeting for caregiver worker leaders like himself, he closed his eyes, relaxed his shoulders and breathed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You are seen. Inhale,” a staff member told the group. “You are valued. Exhale.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes, Pakbet said he feels valued, like when he was a private aide for Teddy, a 98-year-old woman at the retirement home. They developed a relationship like a mother and son, and he would treat her so — cooking her homemade chicken feet adobo, or watching makeup tutorials with her online. He’d apply her lipstick, dress her in a gown and accompany her into the dining room, declaring, “The queen has arrived!” Besides bathing her and monitoring vitals, he saw it as his job to make her laugh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099853\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness, leads a mental wellness breathing and massage exercise to open FAJ’s Kapwa Circle, a monthly community-building event, at the organization’s Union City location on March 6, 2026. Right: Pakbet (center) sings “Precious and Few” as the FAJ community honors FAJ worker organizer, Santi Tagle Buensuceso, during a surprise farewell party about one week before Buensuceso relocates back to the Philippines. Although Pakbet had a caregiving shift that evening, he joined the first half of the Kapwa Circle to attend the surprise going-away party for Buensuceso, who he considers an older sister. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096175\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Members of the Filipino Advocates for Justice community practice a breathing and movement exercise during the organization’s March Kapwa Circle. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Other times, his body remembers: panic attacks from the chronic stress of unstable paychecks and exploitative employers, grief for his mother with cancer back home in the Philippines, whom he hasn’t hugged in a decade. The depression has led to insomnia and isolation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“My world is work, home. I don’t have any trusted friends,” he said. “This is my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet, 54, said caregivers like him can feel overworked and undervalued. A Bay Area immigrant rights organization, FAJ creates an affirming space for them to rest and celebrate, so they can show up whole — not only for themselves but for others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"994\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-1536x763.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Center: Pakbet poses for a portrait in his Bay Area home on May 4, 2026, where he has lived with his family for six years. Previously, they lived in abusive situations, sharing cramped spaces and experiencing mistreatment. In 2020, with guidance from a friend at FAJ, they secured their own apartment. “We rent, and we’re very happy because my son has a room. I can cook now,” said Pakbet. “That’s our paradise.” Left and Right: A Bible and cross adorn the walls of Pakbet’s apartment. The demands of caregiving often weigh heavily on his mind, but he finds solace in his faith. “It’s hard, it’s very tiring,” he said. “Without my son, without my faith, I almost give up.” (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Leaning on Filipino cultural practices and intergenerational connection, mental health is woven into everything they do, from monthly gatherings and wellness clinics to everyday grounding techniques and artistic expression. Yet the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown and statewide funding cuts to mental health services have threatened their prevention work, even as a shortage in \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/Goals/4\">care workers \u003c/a>looms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Filipinos are heavily represented in the healthcare workforce, according to \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7969854/\">research\u003c/a>, and many are paid to care for older adults. Respect for elders is a deeply embedded cultural value. As California’s population continues to age — \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/\">about 25% will be an older adult by 2030\u003c/a> — caregivers will become even more essential. But isolation, burnout, racial discrimination, wage theft, and more can all contribute to mental health challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They are the first to take care of everybody else. And that’s done at the expense of their own bodies, their own emotional health,” said Geraldine Alcid, executive director of FAJ. “They deserve to take care of themselves, and they deserve rest.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1272\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-1536x977.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An old photograph of Pakbet and Teddy decorated with makeup and his written reflections. To help Teddy prepare for outings, Pakbet watched YouTube tutorials to learn makeup and helped her choose dresses and jewelry. At the care home, Pakbet recalls people asking him, “Where is your master?” but Teddy always defended him, responding that he was her family. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; instant photo made with and handwriting and decorations by Pakbet)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1620\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_05_Caregiver1_CookingAdobo_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096600\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet cooks chicken adobo at home. He de-stresses through cooking and finds joy in sharing his food. When caring for Teddy, a former client who was bedridden, he learned she had grown tired of retirement home meals and missed eating dim sum and chicken feet. He made her chicken feet adobo and began cooking for her. Over time, Pakbet says, she regained energy and began walking again. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; handwriting by Pakbet)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>When Pakbet first arrived in the States alone over a decade ago, he lived and worked at a residential care home for older adults. He said his boss forced him to sleep on cardboard in the garage, and his paychecks didn’t reflect the long, exhausting hours. He also knew caregivers who died by suicide. Pakbet, at times, didn’t know if he’d make it. The reason he immigrated was to provide for his son’s education.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Pakbet said his Bible and a photo of his son got him through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s experience is common. Yet cultural \u003ca href=\"https://filipinos4justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/3-30-22-Filipino-Advocates-for-Justice-FAJ_-A-Mental-Health-Report-_-Kumusta-Tayo-2021.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">stigma\u003c/a> and shame can prevent Filipino immigrants from seeking support. “I’ve witnessed many times caregivers who need help. They get scared and hide in the dark,” Pakbet said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over a decade ago, Oakland-based community health center Asian Health Services referred an exploited caregiver who was anxious and stressed to FAJ. The organization realized others had similar stories, and it was the catalyst for it to focus efforts on prevention. In 2015, they launched a mental health support group for caregivers, many of them older, funded through a two-year Alameda County innovations grant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>FAJ expanded its program with the help of an eight-year county contract. They hired a licensed mental health professional on staff, as well as three part-time community outreach specialists to facilitate mental health offerings rooted in culture. FAJ also created a Healing Advisory Committee that organizes free annual wellness clinics, featuring Filipino traditions such as hilot, a massage focused on releasing trauma. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096179\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet hangs a wet sheet to dry near the window in his Bay Area home. After years of living in the United States without access to an in-home washing machine, he set up a small washer in his apartment kitchen — a change he says has saved him time and eased the routines of daily life. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"920\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096178\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Pakbet holds calamansi — a sweet and sour Filipino citrus with fragrant flowers — that he harvested from the office garden at Filipino Advocates for Justice for cooking. Right: Pakbet’s caregiving scrubs drape the living room couch where he sleeps so that his son can have the only bedroom in their apartment. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2023, a one-time state grant from the Department of Aging enabled FAJ to shift attention again to caregivers. They provided training on topics such as nutrition and managing grief, weaving in hands-on clinics for everyday self-care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At first, caregivers expressed apprehensive curiosity. Then eventually, they requested chia seed pudding recipes and acupuncture, even the caregivers who feared needles. The organization also provided acupressure rings people could roll on their fingers whenever they needed to calm themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nervous system regulation is essential for moving from merely surviving to thriving, said Dr. Karen Villanueva, training lead and executive director of Kilusan Wellness. And for the majority of caregivers with little time or money, accessibility is key. “So much the better if you can tuck it in your pocket and take it out when you need it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This July, the policy changes California made to its landmark Behavioral Services Act took effect. When voters passed Proposition 1 in 2024, they approved Gov. Gavin Newsom’s plans to shift funds away from prevention and early intervention toward treatment beds. FAJ’s prevention funding, which supports half of their direct services, was reduced from $360,000 to zero dollars — the organization lost its licensed mental health professional and folded its community outreach advisers into other roles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the special meeting for wellness worker leaders, where Pakbet could slow down and breathe, the thinning manifested in another way. Usually, nearly a dozen caregivers would be gearing up to knock on the doors of care homes in the East Bay, handing “know your rights” information to employees. The organization pays these workers a learning stipend to perform this outreach work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when Pakbet looked around the office, he was one of the few caregivers who had stayed. Half of the group had chosen to spend their remaining years in the Philippines as the Trump administration pushes to aggressively crack down on immigration. Many said they were tired of feeling criminalized and undervalued, or, as one staff member of the organization said, an “America-doesn’t-deserve-me” mentality. Others said they missed moments with loved ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096177\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet listens to a talk on safety in sanctuary cities during an FAJ informational session for caregivers and their community. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Along with other caregivers in this story, KQED is referring to Pakbet only by a nickname to allow them to speak openly about their mental health struggles and working conditions without jeopardizing their employment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet understands the impulse to return home. Still, he said he was feeling especially tender.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His “lifeline,” FAJ’s worker organizer and seasoned activist Santi Tagle Buensuceso, had announced that she was also returning to her homeland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whenever Pakbet struggled, instead of crying alone, he’d call Tagle Buensuceso. Sometimes, he’d voice his doubts about his ability to be a provider: “Am I a good father? Am I doing OK? Do I need to go back to the Philippines?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She would assure him that trying his best was good enough, that he was a great father and husband. She also realized caregivers like Pakbet needed more outlets and two years ago suggested FAJ host monthly Kapwa Circles for the wider community. A third space to unwind, to reflect, to create joy. \u003ca href=\"https://sswr.confex.com/sswr/2026/webprogram/Paper61579.html\">Kapwa\u003c/a>, a Filipino value meaning interconnectedness, the recognition of yourself in each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096176\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Community members practice a breathing and movement exercise as Santi Tagle Buensuceso reads a farewell card signed by the Filipino Advocates for Justice community during a surprise party held a week before her return to the Philippines. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, right, says goodbye to Tagle Buensuceso during her surprise farewell party. To Pakbet, Buensuceso was like an older sister, someone who always looked out for and advocated for him. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>On a Friday evening in March, the young and old came together at FAJ’s Union City office to recreate a slice of the Philippines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fried chicken from Jollibee piled high on paper plates, the sounds of people speaking Tagalog could be heard. Outside, a community garden where calamansi, a citrus fruit native to the Philippines, had been harvested for a jar of juice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The event is what FAJ leadership describes as a “Filipino family party” or a Kapwa Circle. It has a different flavor each month and begins with a discussion of a social justice topic — sanctuary cities, for one, or voter registration — to invite people into FAJ’s organizing work. After the community conversation, they host an activity like bingo or mahjong. Always karaoke, whether planned or not. There is a rule of no chisme, but many will say gossip is their favorite part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096174\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">People dance the Pinoy Cha-Cha during the March Kapwa Circle at the offices of Filipino Advocates for Justice in Union City, California. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099855\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Cristy Ferrer, a Filipino Advocates for Justice organizer, left, and Ine, a caregiver and FAJ worker leader, lead a Pinoy Cha-Cha dance lesson. Right: Ine dances with another community member during the Kapwa Circle. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>The evening was Tagle Buensuceso’s last circle. Pakbet was there, drawn to a space where he could laugh and smile naturally. “I don’t need to fake it,” he said. He must leave early, however, to care for a client. Pakbet is now a certified nurse assistant and works hourly one-on-one with clients, but stability has been elusive lately. Clients have entered hospital care or passed away. With fewer hours, he has no choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For now, he joined in celebrating Tagle Buensuceso. As a surprise, staff handed out printed lyrics of her favorite song, “Precious and Few” by the band Climax. Ine, a fellow caregiver worker leader, grabbed her guitar. She led the group for a sing-along to the ’70s soft-rock song about cherishing moments, and the metaphor was not lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A mother of three, Ine came solo to the U.S. 15 years ago to provide her children a good college education, and has lived and worked at a care home ever since. As the home’s cook, Ine, 63, plates green pesto pasta and other colorful food with the intention to appeal to her dementia patients. She also administers medicine, having gone back to school to become a pharmacy technician, graduating with honors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ectSMWvm4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said she talks with her husband and children via video every night, but misses them the most on holidays and birthdays. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Back in her room at the care home, she filled a balikbayan box for her son’s 41st birthday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She lovingly selected Lacoste polo shirts, Ferrero Rocher chocolate and other items for the care package by hand, a proxy for her presence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1513\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_06_VideoPortraits_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096610\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Caregivers, community members and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice pose for portraits in the garden near a calamansi tree cared for by staff and harvested by caregivers for their food. Some chose gestures of wellness to express in their portraits. “There’s such a deep, immense healing power that caregivers have,” said Daisy Maxion, FAJ organizing director. “They remind us of what it means to be human.” (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Every month, she makes sure she has time off for the Kapwa Circle. When she is tired, when the monotony of caregiving is grueling, she said being with other caregivers at FAJ and, better, using her musical talent to entertain, gives her the “strength to work for another day.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This evening, Ine passed the mic to Tagle Buensuceso, who said that before FAJ, she believed cigarettes were the only form of wellness. She left the group with one last piece of wisdom. “If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of your community.” Pakbet clapped. The music began. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hands linked and people moved to the Cupid Shuffle, the Macarena, the Pinoy Cha-Cha. Ine was in her element, her first love, dance. The food whittled down. When a delivery worker stopped by to drop off more Spam musubi, she was met with a chorus of: “Stay. Take a plate.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"920\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: A community member of Filipino Advocates for Justice holds a flower in her hand as she poses in front of a backdrop. “If you’re able to breathe deeply and freely, if you’re able to sit with difficult emotions, if you’re able to get regular sleep and eat food that has some nutrition in it … you’re leaving room for creativity and imagination and the courage to reach out,” said Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness. “Nervous system regulation allows us to really know who we are.” Right: Two attendees wear Filipiniana dresses as they fill ttheir plates during a Kapwa Circle potluck. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>There is power in knowing others share similar experiences, said Dr. Annalisa Enrile, a Filipina community organizer and professor at the USC School of Social Work.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Enrile has researched how \u003ca href=\"https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2026-27795-003.html\">communal care in Filipino immigrant communities\u003c/a> that draws on cultural practices can ease stress and improve mental well-being. “If you feel like you belong in a way that gives you agency, and reduces stigma,” she said, “then you’re more apt to ask for help.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>FAJ’s leaders, too, realized belonging was a way to build trust and encourage caregivers to open up, and it’s why they have prioritized connection as the heart of their programming. Recently, they were relieved to hear they received one year of bridge funding to bring back their mental health specialist as they figure out how to sustain their wellness and mental health services. A temporary bandage, executive director Geraldine Alcid said, but enough to keep going. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096184\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ine near the San Francisco Bay, where she likes to go and recharge when she has time. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite the funding uncertainty, the group is sustained by a deep hope: Show up, and something might shift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet wasn’t sure if he’d come back to FAJ when Tagle Buensuceso left. He decided to keep showing up anyway, without a community elsewhere. Later that spring, he attended a picnic for caregivers at Contra Loma Regional Park in Contra Costa County. The stillness of the oak-tree-dotted hills contrasted with the chaos of the last few months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of his male clients was in the hospital, which meant Pakbet was not being paid to take care of him and was spending too much time alone at home in his apartment. He nearly missed a rent payment until he reached out to FAJ to help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, center, joins other caregivers and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice under the shade of a tree at Contra Loma Regional Park in Antioch for an annual picnic–an opportunity to connect with caregivers from across the Bay Area and enjoy nature. Caregivers practiced wellness stretching, shared food and reenacted moments from caregiving through a “Theater of the Oppressed” activity. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Grateful for people, for peaceful nature, he set up his phone on a tripod to document the picnic. The wind was gentle. The wetlands glassy. A duck swam by and Pakbet paused to look at it, reminding him of balut, a delicacy with roots in his mother’s province. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The caregivers took turns sharing their favorite stretch before acting out a scripted scene from \u003cem>Theater of the Oppressed\u003c/em>, an approach that uses roleplay to explore solutions to social problems. Pakbet assumed the role of a care home owner. Drawing from his own experience, he joked about doling out “expensive” perfume from the Dollar Tree instead of actual dollars for overtime. People burst out laughing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet reflected afterward and said he has never felt more anchored in his purpose to empower caregivers like himself. Next outreach, when he knocks on doors, before asking about rights, before handing them a booklet, he will first ask, “How are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was made possible in part by the Aging Beat workshop, convened by the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s only obligation was to focus on himself. At least for one day. In the bright orange office of Filipino Advocates for Justice (FAJ), where he was attending a special wellness meeting for caregiver worker leaders like himself, he closed his eyes, relaxed his shoulders and breathed. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sometimes, Pakbet said he feels valued, like when he was a private aide for Teddy, a 98-year-old woman at the retirement home. They developed a relationship like a mother and son, and he would treat her so — cooking her homemade chicken feet adobo, or watching makeup tutorials with her online. He’d apply her lipstick, dress her in a gown and accompany her into the dining room, declaring, “The queen has arrived!” Besides bathing her and monitoring vitals, he saw it as his job to make her laugh.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sometimes, Pakbet said he feels valued, like when he was a private aide for Teddy, a 98-year-old woman at the retirement home. They developed a relationship like a mother and son, and he would treat her so — cooking her homemade chicken feet adobo, or watching makeup tutorials with her online. He’d apply her lipstick, dress her in a gown and accompany her into the dining room, declaring, “The queen has arrived!” Besides bathing her and monitoring vitals, he saw it as his job to make her laugh.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099853\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness, leads a mental wellness breathing and massage exercise to open FAJ’s Kapwa Circle, a monthly community-building event, at the organization’s Union City location on March 6, 2026. Right: Pakbet (center) sings “Precious and Few” as the FAJ community honors FAJ worker organizer, Santi Tagle Buensuceso, during a surprise farewell party about one week before Buensuceso relocates back to the Philippines. Although Pakbet had a caregiving shift that evening, he joined the first half of the Kapwa Circle to attend the surprise going-away party for Buensuceso, who he considers an older sister.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099853\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness, leads a mental wellness breathing and massage exercise to open FAJ’s Kapwa Circle, a monthly community-building event, at the organization’s Union City location on March 6, 2026. Right: Pakbet (center) sings “Precious and Few” as the FAJ community honors FAJ worker organizer, Santi Tagle Buensuceso, during a surprise farewell party about one week before Buensuceso relocates back to the Philippines. Although Pakbet had a caregiving shift that evening, he joined the first half of the Kapwa Circle to attend the surprise going-away party for Buensuceso, who he considers an older sister.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096175\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Members of the Filipino Advocates for Justice community practice a breathing and movement exercise during the organization’s March Kapwa Circle.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096175\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Members of the Filipino Advocates for Justice community practice a breathing and movement exercise during the organization’s March Kapwa Circle.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Other times, his body remembers: panic attacks from the chronic stress of unstable paychecks and exploitative employers, grief for his mother with cancer back home in the Philippines, whom he hasn’t hugged in a decade. The depression has led to insomnia and isolation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Other times, his body remembers: panic attacks from the chronic stress of unstable paychecks and exploitative employers, grief for his mother with cancer back home in the Philippines, whom he hasn’t hugged in a decade. The depression has led to insomnia and isolation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet, 54, said caregivers like him can feel overworked and undervalued. A Bay Area immigrant rights organization, FAJ creates an affirming space for them to rest and celebrate, so they can show up whole — not only for themselves but for others.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pakbet, 54, said caregivers like him can feel overworked and undervalued. A Bay Area immigrant rights organization, FAJ creates an affirming space for them to rest and celebrate, so they can show up whole — not only for themselves but for others.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-1536x763.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Center: Pakbet poses for a portrait in his Bay Area home on May 4, 2026, where he has lived with his family for six years. Previously, they lived in abusive situations, sharing cramped spaces and experiencing mistreatment. In 2020, with guidance from a friend at FAJ, they secured their own apartment. “We rent, and we’re very happy because my son has a room. I can cook now,” said Pakbet. “That’s our paradise.” Left and Right: A Bible and cross adorn the walls of Pakbet’s apartment. The demands of caregiving often weigh heavily on his mind, but he finds solace in his faith. “It’s hard, it’s very tiring,” he said. “Without my son, without my faith, I almost give up.”\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096186\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Center: Pakbet poses for a portrait in his Bay Area home on May 4, 2026, where he has lived with his family for six years. Previously, they lived in abusive situations, sharing cramped spaces and experiencing mistreatment. In 2020, with guidance from a friend at FAJ, they secured their own apartment. “We rent, and we’re very happy because my son has a room. I can cook now,” said Pakbet. “That’s our paradise.” Left and Right: A Bible and cross adorn the walls of Pakbet’s apartment. The demands of caregiving often weigh heavily on his mind, but he finds solace in his faith. “It’s hard, it’s very tiring,” he said. “Without my son, without my faith, I almost give up.”\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Leaning on Filipino cultural practices and intergenerational connection, mental health is woven into everything they do, from monthly gatherings and wellness clinics to everyday grounding techniques and artistic expression. Yet the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown and statewide funding cuts to mental health services have threatened their prevention work, even as a shortage in \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/Goals/4\">care workers \u003c/a>looms. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Leaning on Filipino cultural practices and intergenerational connection, mental health is woven into everything they do, from monthly gatherings and wellness clinics to everyday grounding techniques and artistic expression. Yet the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown and statewide funding cuts to mental health services have threatened their prevention work, even as a shortage in \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/Goals/4\">care workers \u003c/a>looms. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Filipinos are heavily represented in the healthcare workforce, according to \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7969854/\">research\u003c/a>, and many are paid to care for older adults. Respect for elders is a deeply embedded cultural value. As California’s population continues to age — \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/\">about 25% will be an older adult by 2030\u003c/a> — caregivers will become even more essential. But isolation, burnout, racial discrimination, wage theft, and more can all contribute to mental health challenges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Filipinos are heavily represented in the healthcare workforce, according to \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7969854/\">research\u003c/a>, and many are paid to care for older adults. Respect for elders is a deeply embedded cultural value. As California’s population continues to age — \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/\">about 25% will be an older adult by 2030\u003c/a> — caregivers will become even more essential. But isolation, burnout, racial discrimination, wage theft, and more can all contribute to mental health challenges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They are the first to take care of everybody else. And that’s done at the expense of their own bodies, their own emotional health,” said Geraldine Alcid, executive director of FAJ. “They deserve to take care of themselves, and they deserve rest.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They are the first to take care of everybody else. And that’s done at the expense of their own bodies, their own emotional health,” said Geraldine Alcid, executive director of FAJ. “They deserve to take care of themselves, and they deserve rest.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-1536x977.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An old photograph of Pakbet and Teddy decorated with makeup and his written reflections. To help Teddy prepare for outings, Pakbet watched YouTube tutorials to learn makeup and helped her choose dresses and jewelry. At the care home, Pakbet recalls people asking him, “Where is your master?” but Teddy always defended him, responding that he was her family.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; instant photo made with and handwriting and decorations by Pakbet)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096185\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An old photograph of Pakbet and Teddy decorated with makeup and his written reflections. To help Teddy prepare for outings, Pakbet watched YouTube tutorials to learn makeup and helped her choose dresses and jewelry. At the care home, Pakbet recalls people asking him, “Where is your master?” but Teddy always defended him, responding that he was her family.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; instant photo made with and handwriting and decorations by Pakbet)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_05_Caregiver1_CookingAdobo_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096600\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet cooks chicken adobo at home. He de-stresses through cooking and finds joy in sharing his food. When caring for Teddy, a former client who was bedridden, he learned she had grown tired of retirement home meals and missed eating dim sum and chicken feet. He made her chicken feet adobo and began cooking for her. Over time, Pakbet says, she regained energy and began walking again.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; handwriting by Pakbet)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_05_Caregiver1_CookingAdobo_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096600\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet cooks chicken adobo at home. He de-stresses through cooking and finds joy in sharing his food. When caring for Teddy, a former client who was bedridden, he learned she had grown tired of retirement home meals and missed eating dim sum and chicken feet. He made her chicken feet adobo and began cooking for her. Over time, Pakbet says, she regained energy and began walking again.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; handwriting by Pakbet)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When Pakbet first arrived in the States alone over a decade ago, he lived and worked at a residential care home for older adults. He said his boss forced him to sleep on cardboard in the garage, and his paychecks didn’t reflect the long, exhausting hours. He also knew caregivers who died by suicide. Pakbet, at times, didn’t know if he’d make it. The reason he immigrated was to provide for his son’s education.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Pakbet said his Bible and a photo of his son got him through.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When Pakbet first arrived in the States alone over a decade ago, he lived and worked at a residential care home for older adults. He said his boss forced him to sleep on cardboard in the garage, and his paychecks didn’t reflect the long, exhausting hours. He also knew caregivers who died by suicide. Pakbet, at times, didn’t know if he’d make it. The reason he immigrated was to provide for his son’s education.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Pakbet said his Bible and a photo of his son got him through.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s experience is common. Yet cultural \u003ca href=\"https://filipinos4justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/3-30-22-Filipino-Advocates-for-Justice-FAJ_-A-Mental-Health-Report-_-Kumusta-Tayo-2021.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">stigma\u003c/a> and shame can prevent Filipino immigrants from seeking support. “I’ve witnessed many times caregivers who need help. They get scared and hide in the dark,” Pakbet said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s experience is common. Yet cultural \u003ca href=\"https://filipinos4justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/3-30-22-Filipino-Advocates-for-Justice-FAJ_-A-Mental-Health-Report-_-Kumusta-Tayo-2021.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">stigma\u003c/a> and shame can prevent Filipino immigrants from seeking support. “I’ve witnessed many times caregivers who need help. They get scared and hide in the dark,” Pakbet said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over a decade ago, Oakland-based community health center Asian Health Services referred an exploited caregiver who was anxious and stressed to FAJ. The organization realized others had similar stories, and it was the catalyst for it to focus efforts on prevention. In 2015, they launched a mental health support group for caregivers, many of them older, funded through a two-year Alameda County innovations grant. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over a decade ago, Oakland-based community health center Asian Health Services referred an exploited caregiver who was anxious and stressed to FAJ. The organization realized others had similar stories, and it was the catalyst for it to focus efforts on prevention. In 2015, they launched a mental health support group for caregivers, many of them older, funded through a two-year Alameda County innovations grant. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>FAJ expanded its program with the help of an eight-year county contract. They hired a licensed mental health professional on staff, as well as three part-time community outreach specialists to facilitate mental health offerings rooted in culture. FAJ also created a Healing Advisory Committee that organizes free annual wellness clinics, featuring Filipino traditions such as hilot, a massage focused on releasing trauma. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>FAJ expanded its program with the help of an eight-year county contract. They hired a licensed mental health professional on staff, as well as three part-time community outreach specialists to facilitate mental health offerings rooted in culture. FAJ also created a Healing Advisory Committee that organizes free annual wellness clinics, featuring Filipino traditions such as hilot, a massage focused on releasing trauma. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096179\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet hangs a wet sheet to dry near the window in his Bay Area home. After years of living in the United States without access to an in-home washing machine, he set up a small washer in his apartment kitchen — a change he says has saved him time and eased the routines of daily life.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096179\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet hangs a wet sheet to dry near the window in his Bay Area home. After years of living in the United States without access to an in-home washing machine, he set up a small washer in his apartment kitchen — a change he says has saved him time and eased the routines of daily life.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096178\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Pakbet holds calamansi — a sweet and sour Filipino citrus with fragrant flowers — that he harvested from the office garden at Filipino Advocates for Justice for cooking. Right: Pakbet’s caregiving scrubs drape the living room couch where he sleeps so that his son can have the only bedroom in their apartment.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096178\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Pakbet holds calamansi — a sweet and sour Filipino citrus with fragrant flowers — that he harvested from the office garden at Filipino Advocates for Justice for cooking. Right: Pakbet’s caregiving scrubs drape the living room couch where he sleeps so that his son can have the only bedroom in their apartment.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 2023, a one-time state grant from the Department of Aging enabled FAJ to shift attention again to caregivers. They provided training on topics such as nutrition and managing grief, weaving in hands-on clinics for everyday self-care. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 2023, a one-time state grant from the Department of Aging enabled FAJ to shift attention again to caregivers. They provided training on topics such as nutrition and managing grief, weaving in hands-on clinics for everyday self-care. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At first, caregivers expressed apprehensive curiosity. Then eventually, they requested chia seed pudding recipes and acupuncture, even the caregivers who feared needles. The organization also provided acupressure rings people could roll on their fingers whenever they needed to calm themselves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At first, caregivers expressed apprehensive curiosity. Then eventually, they requested chia seed pudding recipes and acupuncture, even the caregivers who feared needles. The organization also provided acupressure rings people could roll on their fingers whenever they needed to calm themselves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nervous system regulation is essential for moving from merely surviving to thriving, said Dr. Karen Villanueva, training lead and executive director of Kilusan Wellness. And for the majority of caregivers with little time or money, accessibility is key. “So much the better if you can tuck it in your pocket and take it out when you need it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nervous system regulation is essential for moving from merely surviving to thriving, said Dr. Karen Villanueva, training lead and executive director of Kilusan Wellness. And for the majority of caregivers with little time or money, accessibility is key. “So much the better if you can tuck it in your pocket and take it out when you need it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This July, the policy changes California made to its landmark Behavioral Services Act took effect. When voters passed Proposition 1 in 2024, they approved Gov. Gavin Newsom’s plans to shift funds away from prevention and early intervention toward treatment beds. FAJ’s prevention funding, which supports half of their direct services, was reduced from $360,000 to zero dollars — the organization lost its licensed mental health professional and folded its community outreach advisers into other roles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This July, the policy changes California made to its landmark Behavioral Services Act took effect. When voters passed Proposition 1 in 2024, they approved Gov. Gavin Newsom’s plans to shift funds away from prevention and early intervention toward treatment beds. FAJ’s prevention funding, which supports half of their direct services, was reduced from $360,000 to zero dollars — the organization lost its licensed mental health professional and folded its community outreach advisers into other roles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the special meeting for wellness worker leaders, where Pakbet could slow down and breathe, the thinning manifested in another way. Usually, nearly a dozen caregivers would be gearing up to knock on the doors of care homes in the East Bay, handing “know your rights” information to employees. The organization pays these workers a learning stipend to perform this outreach work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the special meeting for wellness worker leaders, where Pakbet could slow down and breathe, the thinning manifested in another way. Usually, nearly a dozen caregivers would be gearing up to knock on the doors of care homes in the East Bay, handing “know your rights” information to employees. The organization pays these workers a learning stipend to perform this outreach work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But when Pakbet looked around the office, he was one of the few caregivers who had stayed. Half of the group had chosen to spend their remaining years in the Philippines as the Trump administration pushes to aggressively crack down on immigration. Many said they were tired of feeling criminalized and undervalued, or, as one staff member of the organization said, an “America-doesn’t-deserve-me” mentality. Others said they missed moments with loved ones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But when Pakbet looked around the office, he was one of the few caregivers who had stayed. Half of the group had chosen to spend their remaining years in the Philippines as the Trump administration pushes to aggressively crack down on immigration. Many said they were tired of feeling criminalized and undervalued, or, as one staff member of the organization said, an “America-doesn’t-deserve-me” mentality. Others said they missed moments with loved ones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096177\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet listens to a talk on safety in sanctuary cities during an FAJ informational session for caregivers and their community. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096177\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet listens to a talk on safety in sanctuary cities during an FAJ informational session for caregivers and their community. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Along with other caregivers in this story, KQED is referring to Pakbet only by a nickname to allow them to speak openly about their mental health struggles and working conditions without jeopardizing their employment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Along with other caregivers in this story, KQED is referring to Pakbet only by a nickname to allow them to speak openly about their mental health struggles and working conditions without jeopardizing their employment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet understands the impulse to return home. Still, he said he was feeling especially tender.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pakbet understands the impulse to return home. Still, he said he was feeling especially tender.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>His “lifeline,” FAJ’s worker organizer and seasoned activist Santi Tagle Buensuceso, had announced that she was also returning to her homeland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>His “lifeline,” FAJ’s worker organizer and seasoned activist Santi Tagle Buensuceso, had announced that she was also returning to her homeland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whenever Pakbet struggled, instead of crying alone, he’d call Tagle Buensuceso. Sometimes, he’d voice his doubts about his ability to be a provider: “Am I a good father? Am I doing OK? Do I need to go back to the Philippines?” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whenever Pakbet struggled, instead of crying alone, he’d call Tagle Buensuceso. Sometimes, he’d voice his doubts about his ability to be a provider: “Am I a good father? Am I doing OK? Do I need to go back to the Philippines?” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She would assure him that trying his best was good enough, that he was a great father and husband. She also realized caregivers like Pakbet needed more outlets and two years ago suggested FAJ host monthly Kapwa Circles for the wider community. A third space to unwind, to reflect, to create joy. \u003ca href=\"https://sswr.confex.com/sswr/2026/webprogram/Paper61579.html\">Kapwa\u003c/a>, a Filipino value meaning interconnectedness, the recognition of yourself in each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She would assure him that trying his best was good enough, that he was a great father and husband. She also realized caregivers like Pakbet needed more outlets and two years ago suggested FAJ host monthly Kapwa Circles for the wider community. A third space to unwind, to reflect, to create joy. \u003ca href=\"https://sswr.confex.com/sswr/2026/webprogram/Paper61579.html\">Kapwa\u003c/a>, a Filipino value meaning interconnectedness, the recognition of yourself in each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096176\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Community members practice a breathing and movement exercise as Santi Tagle Buensuceso reads a farewell card signed by the Filipino Advocates for Justice community during a surprise party held a week before her return to the Philippines.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096176\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Community members practice a breathing and movement exercise as Santi Tagle Buensuceso reads a farewell card signed by the Filipino Advocates for Justice community during a surprise party held a week before her return to the Philippines.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, right, says goodbye to Tagle Buensuceso during her surprise farewell party. To Pakbet, Buensuceso was like an older sister, someone who always looked out for and advocated for him.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096171\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, right, says goodbye to Tagle Buensuceso during her surprise farewell party. To Pakbet, Buensuceso was like an older sister, someone who always looked out for and advocated for him.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On a Friday evening in March, the young and old came together at FAJ’s Union City office to recreate a slice of the Philippines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Fried chicken from Jollibee piled high on paper plates, the sounds of people speaking Tagalog could be heard. Outside, a community garden where calamansi, a citrus fruit native to the Philippines, had been harvested for a jar of juice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Fried chicken from Jollibee piled high on paper plates, the sounds of people speaking Tagalog could be heard. Outside, a community garden where calamansi, a citrus fruit native to the Philippines, had been harvested for a jar of juice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The event is what FAJ leadership describes as a “Filipino family party” or a Kapwa Circle. It has a different flavor each month and begins with a discussion of a social justice topic — sanctuary cities, for one, or voter registration — to invite people into FAJ’s organizing work. After the community conversation, they host an activity like bingo or mahjong. Always karaoke, whether planned or not. There is a rule of no chisme, but many will say gossip is their favorite part. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The event is what FAJ leadership describes as a “Filipino family party” or a Kapwa Circle. It has a different flavor each month and begins with a discussion of a social justice topic — sanctuary cities, for one, or voter registration — to invite people into FAJ’s organizing work. After the community conversation, they host an activity like bingo or mahjong. Always karaoke, whether planned or not. There is a rule of no chisme, but many will say gossip is their favorite part. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096174\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">People dance the Pinoy Cha-Cha during the March Kapwa Circle at the offices of Filipino Advocates for Justice in Union City, California.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096174\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">People dance the Pinoy Cha-Cha during the March Kapwa Circle at the offices of Filipino Advocates for Justice in Union City, California.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099855\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Cristy Ferrer, a Filipino Advocates for Justice organizer, left, and Ine, a caregiver and FAJ worker leader, lead a Pinoy Cha-Cha dance lesson. Right: Ine dances with another community member during the Kapwa Circle.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099855\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Cristy Ferrer, a Filipino Advocates for Justice organizer, left, and Ine, a caregiver and FAJ worker leader, lead a Pinoy Cha-Cha dance lesson. Right: Ine dances with another community member during the Kapwa Circle.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The evening was Tagle Buensuceso’s last circle. Pakbet was there, drawn to a space where he could laugh and smile naturally. “I don’t need to fake it,” he said. He must leave early, however, to care for a client. Pakbet is now a certified nurse assistant and works hourly one-on-one with clients, but stability has been elusive lately. Clients have entered hospital care or passed away. With fewer hours, he has no choice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The evening was Tagle Buensuceso’s last circle. Pakbet was there, drawn to a space where he could laugh and smile naturally. “I don’t need to fake it,” he said. He must leave early, however, to care for a client. Pakbet is now a certified nurse assistant and works hourly one-on-one with clients, but stability has been elusive lately. Clients have entered hospital care or passed away. With fewer hours, he has no choice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For now, he joined in celebrating Tagle Buensuceso. As a surprise, staff handed out printed lyrics of her favorite song, “Precious and Few” by the band Climax. Ine, a fellow caregiver worker leader, grabbed her guitar. She led the group for a sing-along to the ’70s soft-rock song about cherishing moments, and the metaphor was not lost.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For now, he joined in celebrating Tagle Buensuceso. As a surprise, staff handed out printed lyrics of her favorite song, “Precious and Few” by the band Climax. Ine, a fellow caregiver worker leader, grabbed her guitar. She led the group for a sing-along to the ’70s soft-rock song about cherishing moments, and the metaphor was not lost.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A mother of three, Ine came solo to the U.S. 15 years ago to provide her children a good college education, and has lived and worked at a care home ever since. As the home’s cook, Ine, 63, plates green pesto pasta and other colorful food with the intention to appeal to her dementia patients. She also administers medicine, having gone back to school to become a pharmacy technician, graduating with honors. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A mother of three, Ine came solo to the U.S. 15 years ago to provide her children a good college education, and has lived and worked at a care home ever since. As the home’s cook, Ine, 63, plates green pesto pasta and other colorful food with the intention to appeal to her dementia patients. She also administers medicine, having gone back to school to become a pharmacy technician, graduating with honors. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ectSMWvm4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ectSMWvm4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She said she talks with her husband and children via video every night, but misses them the most on holidays and birthdays. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Back in her room at the care home, she filled a balikbayan box for her son’s 41st birthday. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>She lovingly selected Lacoste polo shirts, Ferrero Rocher chocolate and other items for the care package by hand, a proxy for her presence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>She lovingly selected Lacoste polo shirts, Ferrero Rocher chocolate and other items for the care package by hand, a proxy for her presence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_06_VideoPortraits_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096610\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Caregivers, community members and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice pose for portraits in the garden near a calamansi tree cared for by staff and harvested by caregivers for their food. Some chose gestures of wellness to express in their portraits. “There’s such a deep, immense healing power that caregivers have,” said Daisy Maxion, FAJ organizing director. “They remind us of what it means to be human.”\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_06_VideoPortraits_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096610\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Caregivers, community members and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice pose for portraits in the garden near a calamansi tree cared for by staff and harvested by caregivers for their food. Some chose gestures of wellness to express in their portraits. “There’s such a deep, immense healing power that caregivers have,” said Daisy Maxion, FAJ organizing director. “They remind us of what it means to be human.”\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Every month, she makes sure she has time off for the Kapwa Circle. When she is tired, when the monotony of caregiving is grueling, she said being with other caregivers at FAJ and, better, using her musical talent to entertain, gives her the “strength to work for another day.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Every month, she makes sure she has time off for the Kapwa Circle. When she is tired, when the monotony of caregiving is grueling, she said being with other caregivers at FAJ and, better, using her musical talent to entertain, gives her the “strength to work for another day.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This evening, Ine passed the mic to Tagle Buensuceso, who said that before FAJ, she believed cigarettes were the only form of wellness. She left the group with one last piece of wisdom. “If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of your community.” Pakbet clapped. The music began. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This evening, Ine passed the mic to Tagle Buensuceso, who said that before FAJ, she believed cigarettes were the only form of wellness. She left the group with one last piece of wisdom. “If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of your community.” Pakbet clapped. The music began. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Hands linked and people moved to the Cupid Shuffle, the Macarena, the Pinoy Cha-Cha. Ine was in her element, her first love, dance. The food whittled down. When a delivery worker stopped by to drop off more Spam musubi, she was met with a chorus of: “Stay. Take a plate.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Hands linked and people moved to the Cupid Shuffle, the Macarena, the Pinoy Cha-Cha. Ine was in her element, her first love, dance. The food whittled down. When a delivery worker stopped by to drop off more Spam musubi, she was met with a chorus of: “Stay. Take a plate.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: A community member of Filipino Advocates for Justice holds a flower in her hand as she poses in front of a backdrop. “If you’re able to breathe deeply and freely, if you’re able to sit with difficult emotions, if you’re able to get regular sleep and eat food that has some nutrition in it … you’re leaving room for creativity and imagination and the courage to reach out,” said Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness. “Nervous system regulation allows us to really know who we are.” Right: Two attendees wear Filipiniana dresses as they fill ttheir plates during a Kapwa Circle potluck.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096181\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: A community member of Filipino Advocates for Justice holds a flower in her hand as she poses in front of a backdrop. “If you’re able to breathe deeply and freely, if you’re able to sit with difficult emotions, if you’re able to get regular sleep and eat food that has some nutrition in it … you’re leaving room for creativity and imagination and the courage to reach out,” said Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness. “Nervous system regulation allows us to really know who we are.” Right: Two attendees wear Filipiniana dresses as they fill ttheir plates during a Kapwa Circle potluck.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There is power in knowing others share similar experiences, said Dr. Annalisa Enrile, a Filipina community organizer and professor at the USC School of Social Work.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Enrile has researched how \u003ca href=\"https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2026-27795-003.html\">communal care in Filipino immigrant communities\u003c/a> that draws on cultural practices can ease stress and improve mental well-being. “If you feel like you belong in a way that gives you agency, and reduces stigma,” she said, “then you’re more apt to ask for help.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There is power in knowing others share similar experiences, said Dr. Annalisa Enrile, a Filipina community organizer and professor at the USC School of Social Work.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Enrile has researched how \u003ca href=\"https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2026-27795-003.html\">communal care in Filipino immigrant communities\u003c/a> that draws on cultural practices can ease stress and improve mental well-being. “If you feel like you belong in a way that gives you agency, and reduces stigma,” she said, “then you’re more apt to ask for help.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>FAJ’s leaders, too, realized belonging was a way to build trust and encourage caregivers to open up, and it’s why they have prioritized connection as the heart of their programming. Recently, they were relieved to hear they received one year of bridge funding to bring back their mental health specialist as they figure out how to sustain their wellness and mental health services. A temporary bandage, executive director Geraldine Alcid said, but enough to keep going. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>FAJ’s leaders, too, realized belonging was a way to build trust and encourage caregivers to open up, and it’s why they have prioritized connection as the heart of their programming. Recently, they were relieved to hear they received one year of bridge funding to bring back their mental health specialist as they figure out how to sustain their wellness and mental health services. A temporary bandage, executive director Geraldine Alcid said, but enough to keep going. \u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096184\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ine near the San Francisco Bay, where she likes to go and recharge when she has time.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Despite the funding uncertainty, the group is sustained by a deep hope: Show up, and something might shift. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Despite the funding uncertainty, the group is sustained by a deep hope: Show up, and something might shift. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet wasn’t sure if he’d come back to FAJ when Tagle Buensuceso left. He decided to keep showing up anyway, without a community elsewhere. Later that spring, he attended a picnic for caregivers at Contra Loma Regional Park in Contra Costa County. The stillness of the oak-tree-dotted hills contrasted with the chaos of the last few months. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pakbet wasn’t sure if he’d come back to FAJ when Tagle Buensuceso left. He decided to keep showing up anyway, without a community elsewhere. Later that spring, he attended a picnic for caregivers at Contra Loma Regional Park in Contra Costa County. The stillness of the oak-tree-dotted hills contrasted with the chaos of the last few months. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One of his male clients was in the hospital, which meant Pakbet was not being paid to take care of him and was spending too much time alone at home in his apartment. He nearly missed a rent payment until he reached out to FAJ to help. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>One of his male clients was in the hospital, which meant Pakbet was not being paid to take care of him and was spending too much time alone at home in his apartment. He nearly missed a rent payment until he reached out to FAJ to help. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, center, joins other caregivers and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice under the shade of a tree at Contra Loma Regional Park in Antioch for an annual picnic–an opportunity to connect with caregivers from across the Bay Area and enjoy nature. Caregivers practiced wellness stretching, shared food and reenacted moments from caregiving through a “Theater of the Oppressed” activity.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096180\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, center, joins other caregivers and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice under the shade of a tree at Contra Loma Regional Park in Antioch for an annual picnic–an opportunity to connect with caregivers from across the Bay Area and enjoy nature. Caregivers practiced wellness stretching, shared food and reenacted moments from caregiving through a “Theater of the Oppressed” activity.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Grateful for people, for peaceful nature, he set up his phone on a tripod to document the picnic. The wind was gentle. The wetlands glassy. A duck swam by and Pakbet paused to look at it, reminding him of balut, a delicacy with roots in his mother’s province. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Grateful for people, for peaceful nature, he set up his phone on a tripod to document the picnic. The wind was gentle. The wetlands glassy. A duck swam by and Pakbet paused to look at it, reminding him of balut, a delicacy with roots in his mother’s province. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The caregivers took turns sharing their favorite stretch before acting out a scripted scene from \u003cem>Theater of the Oppressed\u003c/em>, an approach that uses roleplay to explore solutions to social problems. Pakbet assumed the role of a care home owner. Drawing from his own experience, he joked about doling out “expensive” perfume from the Dollar Tree instead of actual dollars for overtime. People burst out laughing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The caregivers took turns sharing their favorite stretch before acting out a scripted scene from \u003cem>Theater of the Oppressed\u003c/em>, an approach that uses roleplay to explore solutions to social problems. Pakbet assumed the role of a care home owner. Drawing from his own experience, he joked about doling out “expensive” perfume from the Dollar Tree instead of actual dollars for overtime. People burst out laughing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Pakbet reflected afterward and said he has never felt more anchored in his purpose to empower caregivers like himself. Next outreach, when he knocks on doors, before asking about rights, before handing them a booklet, he will first ask, “How are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Pakbet reflected afterward and said he has never felt more anchored in his purpose to empower caregivers like himself. Next outreach, when he knocks on doors, before asking about rights, before handing them a booklet, he will first ask, “How are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was made possible in part by the Aging Beat workshop, convened by the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was made possible in part by the Aging Beat workshop, convened by the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Filipino Advocates for Justice creates an affirming space for them to rest and celebrate, so they can show up whole — not only for themselves but for others.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This project was produced jointly by KQED and CatchLight as part of the \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"http://catchlight.io/mental-health\">\u003cem>mental health visual desk initiative.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s only obligation was to focus on himself. At least for one day. In the bright orange office of Filipino Advocates for Justice (FAJ), where he was attending a special wellness meeting for caregiver worker leaders like himself, he closed his eyes, relaxed his shoulders and breathed. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“You are seen. Inhale,” a staff member told the group. “You are valued. Exhale.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sometimes, Pakbet said he feels valued, like when he was a private aide for Teddy, a 98-year-old woman at the retirement home. They developed a relationship like a mother and son, and he would treat her so — cooking her homemade chicken feet adobo, or watching makeup tutorials with her online. He’d apply her lipstick, dress her in a gown and accompany her into the dining room, declaring, “The queen has arrived!” Besides bathing her and monitoring vitals, he saw it as his job to make her laugh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099853\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness, leads a mental wellness breathing and massage exercise to open FAJ’s Kapwa Circle, a monthly community-building event, at the organization’s Union City location on March 6, 2026. Right: Pakbet (center) sings “Precious and Few” as the FAJ community honors FAJ worker organizer, Santi Tagle Buensuceso, during a surprise farewell party about one week before Buensuceso relocates back to the Philippines. Although Pakbet had a caregiving shift that evening, he joined the first half of the Kapwa Circle to attend the surprise going-away party for Buensuceso, who he considers an older sister. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096175\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-07-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Members of the Filipino Advocates for Justice community practice a breathing and movement exercise during the organization’s March Kapwa Circle. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Other times, his body remembers: panic attacks from the chronic stress of unstable paychecks and exploitative employers, grief for his mother with cancer back home in the Philippines, whom he hasn’t hugged in a decade. The depression has led to insomnia and isolation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“My world is work, home. I don’t have any trusted friends,” he said. “This is my life.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet, 54, said caregivers like him can feel overworked and undervalued. A Bay Area immigrant rights organization, FAJ creates an affirming space for them to rest and celebrate, so they can show up whole — not only for themselves but for others.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"994\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-18-1536x763.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Center: Pakbet poses for a portrait in his Bay Area home on May 4, 2026, where he has lived with his family for six years. Previously, they lived in abusive situations, sharing cramped spaces and experiencing mistreatment. In 2020, with guidance from a friend at FAJ, they secured their own apartment. “We rent, and we’re very happy because my son has a room. I can cook now,” said Pakbet. “That’s our paradise.” Left and Right: A Bible and cross adorn the walls of Pakbet’s apartment. The demands of caregiving often weigh heavily on his mind, but he finds solace in his faith. “It’s hard, it’s very tiring,” he said. “Without my son, without my faith, I almost give up.” (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Leaning on Filipino cultural practices and intergenerational connection, mental health is woven into everything they do, from monthly gatherings and wellness clinics to everyday grounding techniques and artistic expression. Yet the Trump administration’s immigration crackdown and statewide funding cuts to mental health services have threatened their prevention work, even as a shortage in \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/Goals/4\">care workers \u003c/a>looms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Filipinos are heavily represented in the healthcare workforce, according to \u003ca href=\"https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7969854/\">research\u003c/a>, and many are paid to care for older adults. Respect for elders is a deeply embedded cultural value. As California’s population continues to age — \u003ca href=\"https://mpa.aging.ca.gov/\">about 25% will be an older adult by 2030\u003c/a> — caregivers will become even more essential. But isolation, burnout, racial discrimination, wage theft, and more can all contribute to mental health challenges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They are the first to take care of everybody else. And that’s done at the expense of their own bodies, their own emotional health,” said Geraldine Alcid, executive director of FAJ. “They deserve to take care of themselves, and they deserve rest.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1272\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096185\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-160x102.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-17-1536x977.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An old photograph of Pakbet and Teddy decorated with makeup and his written reflections. To help Teddy prepare for outings, Pakbet watched YouTube tutorials to learn makeup and helped her choose dresses and jewelry. At the care home, Pakbet recalls people asking him, “Where is your master?” but Teddy always defended him, responding that he was her family. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; instant photo made with and handwriting and decorations by Pakbet)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1620\" height=\"1080\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_05_Caregiver1_CookingAdobo_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096600\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet cooks chicken adobo at home. He de-stresses through cooking and finds joy in sharing his food. When caring for Teddy, a former client who was bedridden, he learned she had grown tired of retirement home meals and missed eating dim sum and chicken feet. He made her chicken feet adobo and began cooking for her. Over time, Pakbet says, she regained energy and began walking again. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED; handwriting by Pakbet)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>When Pakbet first arrived in the States alone over a decade ago, he lived and worked at a residential care home for older adults. He said his boss forced him to sleep on cardboard in the garage, and his paychecks didn’t reflect the long, exhausting hours. He also knew caregivers who died by suicide. Pakbet, at times, didn’t know if he’d make it. The reason he immigrated was to provide for his son’s education.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Pakbet said his Bible and a photo of his son got him through.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet’s experience is common. Yet cultural \u003ca href=\"https://filipinos4justice.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/3-30-22-Filipino-Advocates-for-Justice-FAJ_-A-Mental-Health-Report-_-Kumusta-Tayo-2021.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com\">stigma\u003c/a> and shame can prevent Filipino immigrants from seeking support. “I’ve witnessed many times caregivers who need help. They get scared and hide in the dark,” Pakbet said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over a decade ago, Oakland-based community health center Asian Health Services referred an exploited caregiver who was anxious and stressed to FAJ. The organization realized others had similar stories, and it was the catalyst for it to focus efforts on prevention. In 2015, they launched a mental health support group for caregivers, many of them older, funded through a two-year Alameda County innovations grant. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>FAJ expanded its program with the help of an eight-year county contract. They hired a licensed mental health professional on staff, as well as three part-time community outreach specialists to facilitate mental health offerings rooted in culture. FAJ also created a Healing Advisory Committee that organizes free annual wellness clinics, featuring Filipino traditions such as hilot, a massage focused on releasing trauma. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096179\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-11-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet hangs a wet sheet to dry near the window in his Bay Area home. After years of living in the United States without access to an in-home washing machine, he set up a small washer in his apartment kitchen — a change he says has saved him time and eased the routines of daily life. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"920\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096178\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-10-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Pakbet holds calamansi — a sweet and sour Filipino citrus with fragrant flowers — that he harvested from the office garden at Filipino Advocates for Justice for cooking. Right: Pakbet’s caregiving scrubs drape the living room couch where he sleeps so that his son can have the only bedroom in their apartment. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2023, a one-time state grant from the Department of Aging enabled FAJ to shift attention again to caregivers. They provided training on topics such as nutrition and managing grief, weaving in hands-on clinics for everyday self-care. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At first, caregivers expressed apprehensive curiosity. Then eventually, they requested chia seed pudding recipes and acupuncture, even the caregivers who feared needles. The organization also provided acupressure rings people could roll on their fingers whenever they needed to calm themselves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nervous system regulation is essential for moving from merely surviving to thriving, said Dr. Karen Villanueva, training lead and executive director of Kilusan Wellness. And for the majority of caregivers with little time or money, accessibility is key. “So much the better if you can tuck it in your pocket and take it out when you need it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This July, the policy changes California made to its landmark Behavioral Services Act took effect. When voters passed Proposition 1 in 2024, they approved Gov. Gavin Newsom’s plans to shift funds away from prevention and early intervention toward treatment beds. FAJ’s prevention funding, which supports half of their direct services, was reduced from $360,000 to zero dollars — the organization lost its licensed mental health professional and folded its community outreach advisers into other roles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the special meeting for wellness worker leaders, where Pakbet could slow down and breathe, the thinning manifested in another way. Usually, nearly a dozen caregivers would be gearing up to knock on the doors of care homes in the East Bay, handing “know your rights” information to employees. The organization pays these workers a learning stipend to perform this outreach work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But when Pakbet looked around the office, he was one of the few caregivers who had stayed. Half of the group had chosen to spend their remaining years in the Philippines as the Trump administration pushes to aggressively crack down on immigration. Many said they were tired of feeling criminalized and undervalued, or, as one staff member of the organization said, an “America-doesn’t-deserve-me” mentality. Others said they missed moments with loved ones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096177\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-09-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet listens to a talk on safety in sanctuary cities during an FAJ informational session for caregivers and their community. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Along with other caregivers in this story, KQED is referring to Pakbet only by a nickname to allow them to speak openly about their mental health struggles and working conditions without jeopardizing their employment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet understands the impulse to return home. Still, he said he was feeling especially tender.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>His “lifeline,” FAJ’s worker organizer and seasoned activist Santi Tagle Buensuceso, had announced that she was also returning to her homeland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whenever Pakbet struggled, instead of crying alone, he’d call Tagle Buensuceso. Sometimes, he’d voice his doubts about his ability to be a provider: “Am I a good father? Am I doing OK? Do I need to go back to the Philippines?” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She would assure him that trying his best was good enough, that he was a great father and husband. She also realized caregivers like Pakbet needed more outlets and two years ago suggested FAJ host monthly Kapwa Circles for the wider community. A third space to unwind, to reflect, to create joy. \u003ca href=\"https://sswr.confex.com/sswr/2026/webprogram/Paper61579.html\">Kapwa\u003c/a>, a Filipino value meaning interconnectedness, the recognition of yourself in each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096176\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-08-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Community members practice a breathing and movement exercise as Santi Tagle Buensuceso reads a farewell card signed by the Filipino Advocates for Justice community during a surprise party held a week before her return to the Philippines. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096171\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-03-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, right, says goodbye to Tagle Buensuceso during her surprise farewell party. To Pakbet, Buensuceso was like an older sister, someone who always looked out for and advocated for him. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>On a Friday evening in March, the young and old came together at FAJ’s Union City office to recreate a slice of the Philippines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Fried chicken from Jollibee piled high on paper plates, the sounds of people speaking Tagalog could be heard. Outside, a community garden where calamansi, a citrus fruit native to the Philippines, had been harvested for a jar of juice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The event is what FAJ leadership describes as a “Filipino family party” or a Kapwa Circle. It has a different flavor each month and begins with a discussion of a social justice topic — sanctuary cities, for one, or voter registration — to invite people into FAJ’s organizing work. After the community conversation, they host an activity like bingo or mahjong. Always karaoke, whether planned or not. There is a rule of no chisme, but many will say gossip is their favorite part. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096174\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-06-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">People dance the Pinoy Cha-Cha during the March Kapwa Circle at the offices of Filipino Advocates for Justice in Union City, California. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12099855\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2000x666.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/09/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-DIP-3-1-2048x682.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: Cristy Ferrer, a Filipino Advocates for Justice organizer, left, and Ine, a caregiver and FAJ worker leader, lead a Pinoy Cha-Cha dance lesson. Right: Ine dances with another community member during the Kapwa Circle. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>The evening was Tagle Buensuceso’s last circle. Pakbet was there, drawn to a space where he could laugh and smile naturally. “I don’t need to fake it,” he said. He must leave early, however, to care for a client. Pakbet is now a certified nurse assistant and works hourly one-on-one with clients, but stability has been elusive lately. Clients have entered hospital care or passed away. With fewer hours, he has no choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For now, he joined in celebrating Tagle Buensuceso. As a surprise, staff handed out printed lyrics of her favorite song, “Precious and Few” by the band Climax. Ine, a fellow caregiver worker leader, grabbed her guitar. She led the group for a sing-along to the ’70s soft-rock song about cherishing moments, and the metaphor was not lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A mother of three, Ine came solo to the U.S. 15 years ago to provide her children a good college education, and has lived and worked at a care home ever since. As the home’s cook, Ine, 63, plates green pesto pasta and other colorful food with the intention to appeal to her dementia patients. She also administers medicine, having gone back to school to become a pharmacy technician, graduating with honors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed aligncenter is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/U9ectSMWvm4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/U9ectSMWvm4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She said she talks with her husband and children via video every night, but misses them the most on holidays and birthdays. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Back in her room at the care home, she filled a balikbayan box for her son’s 41st birthday. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>She lovingly selected Lacoste polo shirts, Ferrero Rocher chocolate and other items for the care package by hand, a proxy for her presence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1513\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/FAJ_Video_06_VideoPortraits_TEST.gif\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096610\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Caregivers, community members and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice pose for portraits in the garden near a calamansi tree cared for by staff and harvested by caregivers for their food. Some chose gestures of wellness to express in their portraits. “There’s such a deep, immense healing power that caregivers have,” said Daisy Maxion, FAJ organizing director. “They remind us of what it means to be human.” (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Every month, she makes sure she has time off for the Kapwa Circle. When she is tired, when the monotony of caregiving is grueling, she said being with other caregivers at FAJ and, better, using her musical talent to entertain, gives her the “strength to work for another day.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This evening, Ine passed the mic to Tagle Buensuceso, who said that before FAJ, she believed cigarettes were the only form of wellness. She left the group with one last piece of wisdom. “If you don’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of your community.” Pakbet clapped. The music began. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Hands linked and people moved to the Cupid Shuffle, the Macarena, the Pinoy Cha-Cha. Ine was in her element, her first love, dance. The food whittled down. When a delivery worker stopped by to drop off more Spam musubi, she was met with a chorus of: “Stay. Take a plate.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"920\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096181\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-160x74.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-13-1536x707.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Left: A community member of Filipino Advocates for Justice holds a flower in her hand as she poses in front of a backdrop. “If you’re able to breathe deeply and freely, if you’re able to sit with difficult emotions, if you’re able to get regular sleep and eat food that has some nutrition in it … you’re leaving room for creativity and imagination and the courage to reach out,” said Karen Villanueva, executive director of Kilusan Wellness. “Nervous system regulation allows us to really know who we are.” Right: Two attendees wear Filipiniana dresses as they fill ttheir plates during a Kapwa Circle potluck. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>There is power in knowing others share similar experiences, said Dr. Annalisa Enrile, a Filipina community organizer and professor at the USC School of Social Work.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Enrile has researched how \u003ca href=\"https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2026-27795-003.html\">communal care in Filipino immigrant communities\u003c/a> that draws on cultural practices can ease stress and improve mental well-being. “If you feel like you belong in a way that gives you agency, and reduces stigma,” she said, “then you’re more apt to ask for help.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>FAJ’s leaders, too, realized belonging was a way to build trust and encourage caregivers to open up, and it’s why they have prioritized connection as the heart of their programming. Recently, they were relieved to hear they received one year of bridge funding to bring back their mental health specialist as they figure out how to sustain their wellness and mental health services. A temporary bandage, executive director Geraldine Alcid said, but enough to keep going. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096184\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-16-1536x1023.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ine near the San Francisco Bay, where she likes to go and recharge when she has time. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite the funding uncertainty, the group is sustained by a deep hope: Show up, and something might shift. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet wasn’t sure if he’d come back to FAJ when Tagle Buensuceso left. He decided to keep showing up anyway, without a community elsewhere. Later that spring, he attended a picnic for caregivers at Contra Loma Regional Park in Contra Costa County. The stillness of the oak-tree-dotted hills contrasted with the chaos of the last few months. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One of his male clients was in the hospital, which meant Pakbet was not being paid to take care of him and was spending too much time alone at home in his apartment. He nearly missed a rent payment until he reached out to FAJ to help. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1998\" height=\"1332\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12096180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12.jpg 1998w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260820-FAJCatchlight-FM-12-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1998px) 100vw, 1998px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Pakbet, center, joins other caregivers and staff of Filipino Advocates for Justice under the shade of a tree at Contra Loma Regional Park in Antioch for an annual picnic–an opportunity to connect with caregivers from across the Bay Area and enjoy nature. Caregivers practiced wellness stretching, shared food and reenacted moments from caregiving through a “Theater of the Oppressed” activity. (Florence Middleton for Catchlight/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Grateful for people, for peaceful nature, he set up his phone on a tripod to document the picnic. The wind was gentle. The wetlands glassy. A duck swam by and Pakbet paused to look at it, reminding him of balut, a delicacy with roots in his mother’s province. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The caregivers took turns sharing their favorite stretch before acting out a scripted scene from \u003cem>Theater of the Oppressed\u003c/em>, an approach that uses roleplay to explore solutions to social problems. Pakbet assumed the role of a care home owner. Drawing from his own experience, he joked about doling out “expensive” perfume from the Dollar Tree instead of actual dollars for overtime. People burst out laughing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Pakbet reflected afterward and said he has never felt more anchored in his purpose to empower caregivers like himself. Next outreach, when he knocks on doors, before asking about rights, before handing them a booklet, he will first ask, “How are you doing?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was made possible in part by the Aging Beat workshop, convened by the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at CUNY.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"id": "american-suburb-podcast",
"title": "American Suburb: The Podcast",
"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
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},
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},
"baycurious": {
"id": "baycurious",
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"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
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},
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},
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},
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},
"californiareport": {
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"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
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"order": 8
},
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}
},
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"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
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"order": 10
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
},
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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}
},
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
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