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Attorneys, immigrant rights advocates, and Governor Gavin Newsom are condemning the Supreme Court’s decision last week to lift a temporary order by a federal judge in Los Angeles that barred ICE from detaining people based on where they were, where they worked, or their apparent race or primary language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"513\" data-end=\"784\">Newsom called it an “unleashing of racial terror” and said in a statement: “This isn’t about enforcing immigration laws. It’s about targeting Latinos and anyone who doesn’t look or sound like Stephen Miller’s idea of an American — including U.S. citizens and children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"786\" data-end=\"1124\">This hour, we look at the impact the Supreme Court’s decision is having on the ground. And listeners, are you concerned about being stopped by ICE? Joining me first is Ahilan Arulanantham, law professor and faculty co-director at the Center for Immigration Law and Policy at UCLA School of Law. 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I think it was June 5, when immigration authorities began conducting massive sweeps all over the city — running into different locations and detaining people indiscriminately. They took away people who couldn’t prove to the agents’ satisfaction that they were lawfully present, and others as well — people who were filming the agents, people resisting in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1913\" data-end=\"2326\">This continued for several weeks, intensively into July, at Home Depot parking lots, car washes, swap meets, and parks — including parks near where I live. My daughter’s soccer events were canceled because Pasadena shut down the parks after a raid. Raids also happened at grocery markets where Latinos are more likely to shop. It was awful. It was a terrible few weeks where the city’s character really changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2328\" data-end=\"2497\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2328\" data-end=\"2341\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so what led Judge Maame Ewusi-Mensah Frimpong to make the ruling that these sweeps should stop? What were some of the specific things she pointed to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2499\" data-end=\"2963\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2499\" data-end=\"2523\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> After a few weeks, the ACLU of Southern California and others filed a lawsuit challenging these stops on the grounds that officers were detaining people based on race and without the suspicion required under the Fourth Amendment. The Fourth Amendment prohibits the government from detaining anyone unless it has reasonable suspicion they’re breaking the law. In the immigration context, that means being in violation of immigration laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2965\" data-end=\"3400\">The legal team built a detailed record of declarations and video — it was all over the internet — showing that agents were indeed stopping people without adequate suspicion. In fact, they were just running into places and detaining everybody. There were U.S. citizens detained multiple times. One person — the owner of a car wash — was detained four times at his own business. Another person was detained repeatedly at her auto shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3402\" data-end=\"3839\">The judge held an evidentiary hearing, heard detailed arguments, and then issued a strong, well-documented ruling that it was unlawful for agents to stop people based solely on a combination of four things: race; language (Spanish, or English with a Spanish accent); place of work (swap meets, fruit vendors, Home Depots); and place of presence (like bus stops). 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Can you talk about the reasons he gave?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4763\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4513\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s important to understand that on the shadow docket, the Court often doesn’t give reasons. Justice Kavanaugh’s opinion was only for himself. None of the other five justices in the majority joined it. That’s a way to prevent accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4765\" data-end=\"5077\">What he wrote was flatly inconsistent with the Court’s own recent opinions. He said race could be used as a factor — not the sole factor, but one factor — in immigration enforcement. He suggested that race plus workplace plus language (Spanish or accented English) might be enough to justify detaining someone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5079\" data-end=\"5410\">That’s contrary to what the Court recently said in the affirmative action cases, when it ended affirmative action in university admissions. 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That’s very dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6084\" data-end=\"6315\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6084\" data-end=\"6097\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Justices Kagan, Jackson, and Sotomayor dissented. Sotomayor said, “We should not have to live in a country where the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears to work a low-wage job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6317\" data-end=\"6402\">What do you see as the impact of this, Ahilan? And we’re just coming up on a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6629\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6428\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> We’ll have to see. There have already been more raids, though not yet at the scale of June. But this decision greenlights the practices we saw in the summer. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"156\" data-end=\"511\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"156\" data-end=\"169\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"181\" data-end=\"188\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Attorneys, immigrant rights advocates, and Governor Gavin Newsom are condemning the Supreme Court’s decision last week to lift a temporary order by a federal judge in Los Angeles that barred ICE from detaining people based on where they were, where they worked, or their apparent race or primary language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"513\" data-end=\"784\">Newsom called it an “unleashing of racial terror” and said in a statement: “This isn’t about enforcing immigration laws. It’s about targeting Latinos and anyone who doesn’t look or sound like Stephen Miller’s idea of an American — including U.S. citizens and children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"786\" data-end=\"1124\">This hour, we look at the impact the Supreme Court’s decision is having on the ground. And listeners, are you concerned about being stopped by ICE? Joining me first is Ahilan Arulanantham, law professor and faculty co-director at the Center for Immigration Law and Policy at UCLA School of Law. Ahilan, glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1121\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1150\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1182\" data-end=\"1402\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1182\" data-end=\"1195\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I know you’re very concerned about this. Walk us through the events that led to the Supreme Court lifting an order by a federal judge in Los Angeles. Why did that judge issue the order in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1404\" data-end=\"1911\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1404\" data-end=\"1428\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> For those of us living in Southern California, it’s hard not to remember what was happening starting in June. I think it was June 5, when immigration authorities began conducting massive sweeps all over the city — running into different locations and detaining people indiscriminately. They took away people who couldn’t prove to the agents’ satisfaction that they were lawfully present, and others as well — people who were filming the agents, people resisting in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1913\" data-end=\"2326\">This continued for several weeks, intensively into July, at Home Depot parking lots, car washes, swap meets, and parks — including parks near where I live. My daughter’s soccer events were canceled because Pasadena shut down the parks after a raid. Raids also happened at grocery markets where Latinos are more likely to shop. It was awful. It was a terrible few weeks where the city’s character really changed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2328\" data-end=\"2497\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2328\" data-end=\"2341\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And so what led Judge Maame Ewusi-Mensah Frimpong to make the ruling that these sweeps should stop? What were some of the specific things she pointed to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2499\" data-end=\"2963\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2499\" data-end=\"2523\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> After a few weeks, the ACLU of Southern California and others filed a lawsuit challenging these stops on the grounds that officers were detaining people based on race and without the suspicion required under the Fourth Amendment. The Fourth Amendment prohibits the government from detaining anyone unless it has reasonable suspicion they’re breaking the law. In the immigration context, that means being in violation of immigration laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2965\" data-end=\"3400\">The legal team built a detailed record of declarations and video — it was all over the internet — showing that agents were indeed stopping people without adequate suspicion. In fact, they were just running into places and detaining everybody. There were U.S. citizens detained multiple times. One person — the owner of a car wash — was detained four times at his own business. Another person was detained repeatedly at her auto shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3402\" data-end=\"3839\">The judge held an evidentiary hearing, heard detailed arguments, and then issued a strong, well-documented ruling that it was unlawful for agents to stop people based solely on a combination of four things: race; language (Spanish, or English with a Spanish accent); place of work (swap meets, fruit vendors, Home Depots); and place of presence (like bus stops). She found that targeting people in those ways violated the Constitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3841\" data-end=\"4282\">That decision significantly changed government practice in July. The Ninth Circuit later upheld most of the order, modifying it slightly. But then the government started violating it again — conducting raids even after the Ninth Circuit upheld the ruling. Finally, the Supreme Court stepped in and stopped the lower court’s order with a “stay” — something it has increasingly done on the shadow docket, particularly with immigration cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4284\" data-end=\"4487\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4284\" data-end=\"4297\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Because it was from the shadow docket, the 6–3 majority didn’t articulate reasons for ending the order. But Justice Kavanaugh did write separately. Can you talk about the reasons he gave?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4763\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4513\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> Yes. It’s important to understand that on the shadow docket, the Court often doesn’t give reasons. Justice Kavanaugh’s opinion was only for himself. None of the other five justices in the majority joined it. That’s a way to prevent accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4765\" data-end=\"5077\">What he wrote was flatly inconsistent with the Court’s own recent opinions. He said race could be used as a factor — not the sole factor, but one factor — in immigration enforcement. He suggested that race plus workplace plus language (Spanish or accented English) might be enough to justify detaining someone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5079\" data-end=\"5410\">That’s contrary to what the Court recently said in the affirmative action cases, when it ended affirmative action in university admissions. There, the majority said ending discrimination means ending all of it. Yet here, Kavanaugh suggests the opposite — that race can be used. There was no explanation for how to reconcile that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5412\" data-end=\"5851\">And for 25 years, the Ninth Circuit had said immigration authorities cannot use race in enforcement, given that so many people in Southern California are Latino. The record in this case showed 47% of people in the district identify as Latino, and about 35–37% speak Spanish at home. To say that speaking Spanish is grounds for suspicion is preposterous. Anyone in L.A. knows that’s ridiculous. But that’s essentially what Kavanaugh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5853\" data-end=\"6082\">There were other troubling aspects as well. His reasoning, if it became law, would fundamentally change Fourth Amendment protections — shifting from suspicion of individuals to suspicion of entire groups. That’s very dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6084\" data-end=\"6315\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6084\" data-end=\"6097\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Justices Kagan, Jackson, and Sotomayor dissented. Sotomayor said, “We should not have to live in a country where the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears to work a low-wage job.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6317\" data-end=\"6402\">What do you see as the impact of this, Ahilan? And we’re just coming up on a break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6629\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6428\">Ahilan Arulanantham:\u003c/strong> We’ll have to see. There have already been more raids, though not yet at the scale of June. But this decision greenlights the practices we saw in the summer. If those return, it’s going to be awful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6631\" data-end=\"7022\">It will be up to state and local leaders, and to the legal community here, to resist — to force the courts to grapple with what this decision really means. But if ICE returns to what it was doing, it will again fundamentally change life in Southern California. Taco trucks, fruit vendors, people enjoying parks — all of that was disrupted last summer. I truly hope we don’t see that again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7024\" data-end=\"7277\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7024\" data-end=\"7037\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about ICE tactics in the wake of the Supreme Court’s decision to temporarily lift a federal judge’s order barring the agency from detaining people without reasonable suspicion. We’ll have more after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly eight years ago, journalist Shoshana Walter followed a lead on a drug and alcohol rehab program that put patients to work at a chicken plant. What she found was one of many programs that boasted treatment and recovery, but actually profited off the unpaid labor of people struggling with addiction. In her new book, “Rehab: An American Scandal”, Walter continues to interrogate America’s drug treatment system by following four people navigating an industry that not only kept patients stuck in a cycle of addiction and relapse, but that actually stymied their recovery. We’ll talk through the dark side of the rehab industry, what this book reveals about the ways patients are exploited for profit, and who actually has a chance at recovery in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV8VaYVH268\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"357\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"326\" data-end=\"333\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"359\" data-end=\"777\">In the mornings, walking from BART across the Mission to the station, I often wonder about the lives of the people I pass doing drugs on Capp Street and in the alleyways of the neighborhood. Sure, they’ve made bad choices, and they impose costs on everybody else in the city. But how can it be that our region, our state, our country cannot help people — even after one million Americans have died of drug overdoses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"779\" data-end=\"1019\">The failure is so profound that I think a lot of us have developed some ethical loopholes about people suffering from addiction. They’re lost to us. No treatment works. When someone goes down that road, it’s too late — etcetera, etcetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1021\" data-end=\"1373\">But one thing that Shoshana Walter’s book irrefutably shows is that when it comes to addiction treatment — when it comes to helping people who want help — we’re just failing people horribly, up and down the socioeconomic ladder, but especially those at the bottom. And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. But your book shows that we didn’t really do that. What went wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2011\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, exactly like you said — during the crack cocaine epidemic, our country’s approach to drug addiction was to criminalize and punish, and that led to mass incarceration of drug users, disproportionately Black and Brown Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2545\">Then the opioid epidemic came around. It was more of a pain pill epidemic, mostly affecting white communities. And so there was this major transformation — a well-intended transformation — and a widespread acknowledgment that addiction is a disease, worthy of medical care and treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2547\" data-end=\"2845\">Over the past twenty-five years, we’ve seen an enormous expansion of our treatment system — first, with the launch of Suboxone, the gold-standard addiction treatment medication, in 2002. And then with the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans suddenly had coverage for addiction treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2847\" data-end=\"3144\">But the system is really not working the way it was intended. A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. You can also email us at \u003ca class=\"cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"9318\" data-end=\"9332\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. We’re on social media @kqedforum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9440\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. We’ll be back with more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"357\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"294\" data-end=\"314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"326\" data-end=\"333\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"359\" data-end=\"777\">In the mornings, walking from BART across the Mission to the station, I often wonder about the lives of the people I pass doing drugs on Capp Street and in the alleyways of the neighborhood. Sure, they’ve made bad choices, and they impose costs on everybody else in the city. But how can it be that our region, our state, our country cannot help people — even after one million Americans have died of drug overdoses?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"779\" data-end=\"1019\">The failure is so profound that I think a lot of us have developed some ethical loopholes about people suffering from addiction. They’re lost to us. No treatment works. When someone goes down that road, it’s too late — etcetera, etcetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1021\" data-end=\"1373\">But one thing that Shoshana Walter’s book irrefutably shows is that when it comes to addiction treatment — when it comes to helping people who want help — we’re just failing people horribly, up and down the socioeconomic ladder, but especially those at the bottom. And even worse, a small number of people are profiting off exploiting the vulnerable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1375\" data-end=\"1574\">Here to share more about her book, \u003cem data-start=\"1410\" data-end=\"1438\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em> — and the reporting that informed it — we’re joined by Shoshana Walter, an investigative reporter with The Marshall Project. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1636\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1576\" data-end=\"1596\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1989\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1638\" data-end=\"1658\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So, the narrative I’ve had in my head about drug treatment in this country is that because the opioid epidemic hit a broader swath of American society than crack before it, our country decided to take a gentler, more treatment-based approach to drug addiction. But your book shows that we didn’t really do that. What went wrong?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2254\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1991\" data-end=\"2011\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, exactly like you said — during the crack cocaine epidemic, our country’s approach to drug addiction was to criminalize and punish, and that led to mass incarceration of drug users, disproportionately Black and Brown Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2256\" data-end=\"2545\">Then the opioid epidemic came around. It was more of a pain pill epidemic, mostly affecting white communities. And so there was this major transformation — a well-intended transformation — and a widespread acknowledgment that addiction is a disease, worthy of medical care and treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2547\" data-end=\"2845\">Over the past twenty-five years, we’ve seen an enormous expansion of our treatment system — first, with the launch of Suboxone, the gold-standard addiction treatment medication, in 2002. And then with the Affordable Care Act, millions more Americans suddenly had coverage for addiction treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2847\" data-end=\"3144\">But the system is really not working the way it was intended. A lot of the issues I lay out in the book have to do with people still being punished for their addictions — being sent to treatment programs that assign them to unpaid labor jobs working for some of the largest companies in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3146\" data-end=\"3564\">We have medication-assisted treatment like Suboxone that’s still hard for patients to access — many doctors don’t want to prescribe it. And then we have insurance-funded, 30-day inpatient programs that people come out of and then relapse. We now know that someone who completes a 30-day treatment program is actually more likely to overdose and die in the year after treatment than someone who doesn’t finish at all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3706\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3566\" data-end=\"3586\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Which is — I mean — the exact opposite of what one might expect. Treatment is supposed to make you better, not worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3708\" data-end=\"3728\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Right. Exactly. And even the best-intentioned treatment programs are often frustrated with this limitation imposed by insurance companies. Some treatment programs have taken advantage of it and made it part of their business model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4190\">There was one treatment company owner I interviewed who admitted they were overmedicating patients to the point of impairment, contributing to overdose deaths in their own program. Even he was frustrated by the 30-day limit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4192\" data-end=\"4393\">He called it a “cycler.” His company had staff call people who left their 30-day program to find out if they’d relapsed — and if they had, especially if they had good insurance, they’d reenroll them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4434\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4395\" data-end=\"4415\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bring them back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4500\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4436\" data-end=\"4456\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. It was just a cycle, in and out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4766\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4502\" data-end=\"4522\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re going to go deeper into all these issues — Suboxone, different types of rehab centers, and why some of them don’t seem to work, or work in ways that seem cruel and unusual to me. But let’s talk about how you got into writing this book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4768\" data-end=\"4985\">Eight years ago, you started looking into some of these treatment centers, and you found people working — as part of their drug treatment, for some reason — in a chicken processing facility? Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5217\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4987\" data-end=\"5007\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was a reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"5034\" data-end=\"5042\">Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting at the time, and I stumbled across a program that a lot of drug courts and diversion courts in Oklahoma and Arkansas were using.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5219\" data-end=\"5629\">These were people who were supposed to be receiving addiction treatment instead of incarceration. It sounded great. But when I looked into it, I discovered the rehab program was founded by former poultry industry executives. Participants were sent to work unpaid at chicken processing plants, making products for KFC, Popeyes, Walmart, PetSmart, Rachael Ray Nutrish — products almost every American consumes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5700\">That unpaid labor was predominantly their sole form of “treatment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5971\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5702\" data-end=\"5722\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And in your book, you trace some of this to a company called Cenikor, which one of the main characters in the book goes through. Where did they come from, and where did this idea — that putting people to work with minimal counseling — might work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"6262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5973\" data-end=\"5993\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Cenikor’s model came from a program called Synanon, founded in 1958 by a former oil salesman who struggled with alcoholism. He had tried AA and hated it because he felt people relapsed and lied in meetings. He didn’t want to let himself or others get away with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6311\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6264\" data-end=\"6284\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tougher love was needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6685\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6313\" data-end=\"6333\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Exactly. This became the precursor to rehab in the United States. It started as a community where people called each other out — yelling, confronting, holding each other accountable. Over time, it grew into recovery communities across the U.S., including in the Bay Area, where participants lived and worked, funding the program through unpaid jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6687\" data-end=\"6813\">They also used what was later called “attack therapy” — or “the game” — circles where people verbally confronted each other.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6815\" data-end=\"7153\">Synanon gained popularity in the ’60s and ’70s, and its model was adopted by programs like the Cenikor Foundation. Eventually, Synanon became cult-like — the founder enriched himself, ordered vasectomies, mandated shaved heads, and forced marriages. It went off the rails, but it showed how a work-based model could become exploitative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7358\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7155\" data-end=\"7175\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> On the face of it, it seems a little crazy. But for some people, did it work? Did they become the biggest advocates — saying, “Look at me, it worked for me, it could work for you”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7513\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7360\" data-end=\"7380\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I think so. There’s something compelling about stories of people entering a program and completely transforming their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7515\" data-end=\"7839\">One former Synanon participant told my colleague at \u003cem data-start=\"7567\" data-end=\"7575\">Reveal\u003c/em>: “We brainwashed people — because their brains are dirty.” But many stayed in these programs for years, left, and relapsed. That’s a very common theme in U.S. treatment models — people do well while they’re in the program, but once they leave, it stops working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7968\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7841\" data-end=\"7861\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is there anything to the idea that once people are deeply addicted to drugs, there’s not much we can do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"8150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7970\" data-end=\"7990\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> No — I think there’s so much we can do to help people recover. Many people recover over time, even without treatment. People age, grow, and naturally change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8152\" data-end=\"8435\">The problem with our drug policies is that the longer someone is in addiction, the more marginalized they become, and the harder it is to recover — because they’re lacking the things needed for long-term recovery: housing, jobs, financial resources, social support, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8437\" data-end=\"8540\">Without these, sustaining recovery is much harder. And there are other barriers I detail in the book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8603\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8542\" data-end=\"8562\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> You call it “recovery capital,” right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8871\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8605\" data-end=\"8625\">Shoshana Walter:\u003c/strong> Yes. Researchers told me how important recovery capital is — the resources that help people envision and achieve change: community, housing, transportation, food, financial security. Without these, relapse is almost inevitable after treatment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"9129\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8873\" data-end=\"8893\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about America’s drug treatment system and the rehab and addiction recovery industry. We’re joined by Shoshana Walter, author of \u003cem data-start=\"9036\" data-end=\"9064\">Rehab: An American Scandal\u003c/em>. She’s now an investigative reporter for The Marshall Project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9131\" data-end=\"9369\">We want to hear from you — have you had experiences with the rehab industry as a patient or a provider? What was your experience? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. 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"content": "\u003cp>California Democrats have long criticized gerrymandering, the practice of drawing district maps to influence election outcomes. But as Texas Republicans have unveiled district maps intended to favor conservatives in the 2026 midterms, California lawmakers are sketching new plans of their own. Governor Gavin Newsom has announced plans to seek a special election in November, asking California voters to approve new districts that might lend Democrats an edge in the national election – temporarily sidelining California’s independent districting commission. We’ll talk with political reporters about what’s at stake in this redistricting fight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch4>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/h4>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZSl25jtp68\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim. Texas Democrats have left the state to delay a vote on a bill to redraw its voting maps and make it easier for Republicans to pick up five more seats in the midterms. Ohio is also poised to redistrict to favor more Republicans. Democrats are furious, including Governor Gavin Newsom, who has called for responding in kind and redrawing California’s congressional districts to benefit more Democrats in 2026. But it’s a lot harder to do that here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we look at why—and whether or not Democrats should, in these political times, engage in essentially a redistricting arms race. 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What’s Texas’ majority trying to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Well, they’re responding to a request from President Trump, who asked the governor there in Texas to redraw the maps to help Republicans gain more seats—to make it more likely that voters would elect more Republicans by redrawing the boundaries of the district lines. So that’s what the Republican majority in Texas is considering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the Democrats left the state—many of them left the state—as a way to kind of boycott that plan. They don’t have enough votes to stop it by voting no, but they could prevent the session from moving forward temporarily by leaving the state. They don’t have a quorum if they don’t have enough lawmakers there to do the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they have sort of fled to a few different states around the country. It remains to be seen how long that will last and whether it will ultimately be successful. In past years, Democrats in Texas have tried something similar, and it basically delayed the redistricting vote—but it didn’t stop it from happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So that’s how Democrats in Texas are responding. Talk about how Gavin Newsom has responded to what Texas is trying to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. So we’ve seen Newsom in the last couple of weeks really ramp up the discussion of this plan, which has now gone from talk to—you know—they’re looking at draft maps, and he’s talking about putting this on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the important thing to think about is that in many states, like Texas, the legislature draws these maps. So whichever party controls the legislature has the power to draw the maps the way they’d like. In California—and a handful of other states across the nation—the voters put that power in the hands of an independent commission. California voters passed a constitutional amendment to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, effectively, for Democrats to gerrymander here as a way to counterbalance what’s happening in Texas, it’s just a lot more procedurally complicated and requires a lot more steps. Newsom is floating this plan to combat what Texas is doing with a California gerrymander, but his ability to just do it the way the Texas governor and legislature can is really hamstrung by all of these procedural requirements that exist in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: And how many more seats does he think could potentially come from this? I understand Democrats currently hold, what, 43 of the state’s 52 House seats?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So, Newsom was asked about that yesterday, and he very pointedly did not say a number. He said he’s leaving it up to the lawmakers to draw the maps. He doesn’t have a specific number in mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we understand there is a draft being considered right now that would have five new Democratic seats—so, five new Republican seats in Texas, five new Democratic seats in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So he wants to sideline the independent commission, put this out to the voters in a special election—potentially in November—if he can get these new maps drawn and everything agreed to by the legislature. How are Democrats responding to this in the state—California Democrats?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Many have expressed support. Many are kind of going along with this message that they feel they need to fight fire with fire—that if Republicans are going to gerrymander, then Democrats need to do the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a couple of dissenters, but I have not so far seen widespread dissent. It’s worth noting that—again, back to my comment earlier about the many procedural steps that would need to be taken—if California does this, two-thirds of the legislature would have to vote to put this on the ballot, and then a majority of voters would have to approve it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll see. Later this month this will likely come up in the legislature—that’s when we’ll see them show their cards. But the state legislature is on summer recess right now. They’re coming back on August 18th, and it’s looking like action will be taken shortly after that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Wow. You wrote about how former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is not a fan of this “fight fire with fire” plan that Governor Newsom has proposed if Texas, in fact, does succeed in moving forward with redrawing its maps to favor Republicans. Talk about why he feels that way—and why his voice is significant here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. So California’s plan—or the system we have in California of independent redistricting—was championed by Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was the governor of California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He had this idea of post-partisan politics. He ran his administration in kind of a bipartisan manner—had Democrats in his administration—and he saw a lot of gridlock in Sacramento between the two parties. That was in the era when the budget required a two-thirds vote and it was very hard for lawmakers to pass a budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He really saw independent redistricting as a tool to break politicians’ control of politics and, in his view, give more power to the people. The idea of independent redistricting is to make the districts more reflective of the voters and communities—and less reflective of politicians’ wishes about who wins and who gets political control.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he put these measures on the ballot that California voters approved in 2008 and 2010. He was a big champion of them. And so the system California has is really one of the legacies of Schwarzenegger’s time as governor. That reform—and also the so-called top-two primary, the nonpartisan primary—those are his babies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he left the Governor’s office, he became sort of an evangelist for this idea. He went to other states, campaigned to pass similar efforts. When the issue went before the Supreme Court, he submitted amicus briefs in support of independent redistricting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even though Schwarzenegger is, like, an action movie star, bodybuilder, governator—he is actually really into this kind of nerdy, wonky idea of organizing democracy in a way that reflects the voters. His spokesman made clear to me that Schwarzenegger would not be okay with his big legacy reform getting trashed in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Schwarzenegger himself hasn’t come out yet and said anything, but he’s very opposed to gerrymandering by both parties. He achieved something significant in getting California’s system to change. And it’s reasonable to think that if California moves ahead with a plan that would trash part of his legacy, he would have something to say about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. I understand his spokesman also said that he felt that by doing partisan gerrymandering in response to Texas’s gerrymander, “two wrongs don’t make a right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, what do you think? Would you support California redrawing its voting maps in favor of Democrats before the midterms to counter Texas and other GOP efforts to redistrict in favor of Republicans? What questions or concerns do you have about the process of redrawing California’s maps or the kind of impacts that would have? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram or Threads at @kqedforum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Along those lines of former Governor Schwarzenegger’s concerns, this has been called a “race to the bottom.” I’m wondering how Newsom or other Democrats who have jumped on board counter that. What are they saying about why it’s needed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Newsom is really going big on the argument that Trump and the Republicans are trying to rig the election—that’s the phrase we’ve heard him use over and over again—and that if Democrats sit back and act “holier than thou,” that’s just basically giving up power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s really going with this: it’s a firefight. He says he likes the idea of independent redistricting and taking politicians out of control, but that it should be done nationwide. Because if only Democratic states are doing it, then they’re giving up power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing to know is that what he’s talked about publicly—and again, this hasn’t been voted on yet, so we don’t know what the final language will be—but what Newsom has said is that the plan would call for this Democratic gerrymander in California for the next three congressional elections: 2026, 2028, and 2030. And that the state would then return to the existing nonpartisan system after the next census—so in the 2030s, we’d allegedly go back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Laurel Rosenhall, who covers California politics and government for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, thanks so much for talking with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We’ll dig in more to how California could make this happen right after the break. Stay with us, listeners. This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>California Democrats have long criticized gerrymandering, the practice of drawing district maps to influence election outcomes. But as Texas Republicans have unveiled district maps intended to favor conservatives in the 2026 midterms, California lawmakers are sketching new plans of their own. Governor Gavin Newsom has announced plans to seek a special election in November, asking California voters to approve new districts that might lend Democrats an edge in the national election – temporarily sidelining California’s independent districting commission. We’ll talk with political reporters about what’s at stake in this redistricting fight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch4>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/h4>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/UZSl25jtp68'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/UZSl25jtp68'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim. Texas Democrats have left the state to delay a vote on a bill to redraw its voting maps and make it easier for Republicans to pick up five more seats in the midterms. Ohio is also poised to redistrict to favor more Republicans. Democrats are furious, including Governor Gavin Newsom, who has called for responding in kind and redrawing California’s congressional districts to benefit more Democrats in 2026. But it’s a lot harder to do that here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This hour, we look at why—and whether or not Democrats should, in these political times, engage in essentially a redistricting arms race. What do you think, listeners?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining me first is Laurel Rosenhall, who covers California politics and government for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Laurel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Thanks for having me. Great to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So first, help us understand what’s happening in Texas. Why did Democrats flee the state? What’s Texas’ majority trying to do?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Well, they’re responding to a request from President Trump, who asked the governor there in Texas to redraw the maps to help Republicans gain more seats—to make it more likely that voters would elect more Republicans by redrawing the boundaries of the district lines. So that’s what the Republican majority in Texas is considering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the Democrats left the state—many of them left the state—as a way to kind of boycott that plan. They don’t have enough votes to stop it by voting no, but they could prevent the session from moving forward temporarily by leaving the state. They don’t have a quorum if they don’t have enough lawmakers there to do the vote.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they have sort of fled to a few different states around the country. It remains to be seen how long that will last and whether it will ultimately be successful. In past years, Democrats in Texas have tried something similar, and it basically delayed the redistricting vote—but it didn’t stop it from happening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So that’s how Democrats in Texas are responding. Talk about how Gavin Newsom has responded to what Texas is trying to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. So we’ve seen Newsom in the last couple of weeks really ramp up the discussion of this plan, which has now gone from talk to—you know—they’re looking at draft maps, and he’s talking about putting this on the ballot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think the important thing to think about is that in many states, like Texas, the legislature draws these maps. So whichever party controls the legislature has the power to draw the maps the way they’d like. In California—and a handful of other states across the nation—the voters put that power in the hands of an independent commission. California voters passed a constitutional amendment to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, effectively, for Democrats to gerrymander here as a way to counterbalance what’s happening in Texas, it’s just a lot more procedurally complicated and requires a lot more steps. Newsom is floating this plan to combat what Texas is doing with a California gerrymander, but his ability to just do it the way the Texas governor and legislature can is really hamstrung by all of these procedural requirements that exist in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: And how many more seats does he think could potentially come from this? I understand Democrats currently hold, what, 43 of the state’s 52 House seats?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So, Newsom was asked about that yesterday, and he very pointedly did not say a number. He said he’s leaving it up to the lawmakers to draw the maps. He doesn’t have a specific number in mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But we understand there is a draft being considered right now that would have five new Democratic seats—so, five new Republican seats in Texas, five new Democratic seats in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: So he wants to sideline the independent commission, put this out to the voters in a special election—potentially in November—if he can get these new maps drawn and everything agreed to by the legislature. How are Democrats responding to this in the state—California Democrats?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Many have expressed support. Many are kind of going along with this message that they feel they need to fight fire with fire—that if Republicans are going to gerrymander, then Democrats need to do the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There have been a couple of dissenters, but I have not so far seen widespread dissent. It’s worth noting that—again, back to my comment earlier about the many procedural steps that would need to be taken—if California does this, two-thirds of the legislature would have to vote to put this on the ballot, and then a majority of voters would have to approve it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ll see. Later this month this will likely come up in the legislature—that’s when we’ll see them show their cards. But the state legislature is on summer recess right now. They’re coming back on August 18th, and it’s looking like action will be taken shortly after that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Wow. You wrote about how former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is not a fan of this “fight fire with fire” plan that Governor Newsom has proposed if Texas, in fact, does succeed in moving forward with redrawing its maps to favor Republicans. Talk about why he feels that way—and why his voice is significant here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. So California’s plan—or the system we have in California of independent redistricting—was championed by Arnold Schwarzenegger when he was the governor of California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He had this idea of post-partisan politics. He ran his administration in kind of a bipartisan manner—had Democrats in his administration—and he saw a lot of gridlock in Sacramento between the two parties. That was in the era when the budget required a two-thirds vote and it was very hard for lawmakers to pass a budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He really saw independent redistricting as a tool to break politicians’ control of politics and, in his view, give more power to the people. The idea of independent redistricting is to make the districts more reflective of the voters and communities—and less reflective of politicians’ wishes about who wins and who gets political control.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So he put these measures on the ballot that California voters approved in 2008 and 2010. He was a big champion of them. And so the system California has is really one of the legacies of Schwarzenegger’s time as governor. That reform—and also the so-called top-two primary, the nonpartisan primary—those are his babies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After he left the Governor’s office, he became sort of an evangelist for this idea. He went to other states, campaigned to pass similar efforts. When the issue went before the Supreme Court, he submitted amicus briefs in support of independent redistricting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even though Schwarzenegger is, like, an action movie star, bodybuilder, governator—he is actually really into this kind of nerdy, wonky idea of organizing democracy in a way that reflects the voters. His spokesman made clear to me that Schwarzenegger would not be okay with his big legacy reform getting trashed in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Schwarzenegger himself hasn’t come out yet and said anything, but he’s very opposed to gerrymandering by both parties. He achieved something significant in getting California’s system to change. And it’s reasonable to think that if California moves ahead with a plan that would trash part of his legacy, he would have something to say about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Yeah. I understand his spokesman also said that he felt that by doing partisan gerrymandering in response to Texas’s gerrymander, “two wrongs don’t make a right.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Listeners, what do you think? Would you support California redrawing its voting maps in favor of Democrats before the midterms to counter Texas and other GOP efforts to redistrict in favor of Republicans? What questions or concerns do you have about the process of redrawing California’s maps or the kind of impacts that would have? You can email forum@kqed.org, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram or Threads at @kqedforum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Along those lines of former Governor Schwarzenegger’s concerns, this has been called a “race to the bottom.” I’m wondering how Newsom or other Democrats who have jumped on board counter that. What are they saying about why it’s needed?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Newsom is really going big on the argument that Trump and the Republicans are trying to rig the election—that’s the phrase we’ve heard him use over and over again—and that if Democrats sit back and act “holier than thou,” that’s just basically giving up power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s really going with this: it’s a firefight. He says he likes the idea of independent redistricting and taking politicians out of control, but that it should be done nationwide. Because if only Democratic states are doing it, then they’re giving up power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing to know is that what he’s talked about publicly—and again, this hasn’t been voted on yet, so we don’t know what the final language will be—but what Newsom has said is that the plan would call for this Democratic gerrymander in California for the next three congressional elections: 2026, 2028, and 2030. And that the state would then return to the existing nonpartisan system after the next census—so in the 2030s, we’d allegedly go back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Laurel Rosenhall, who covers California politics and government for \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, thanks so much for talking with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurel Rosenhall\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Great to be here. Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: We’ll dig in more to how California could make this happen right after the break. Stay with us, listeners. This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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