This story is part of Inside Love, our series exploring what it means to love through science and curious conversation.

“Desire is strange and ridiculous,” according to Niki Davis-Fainbloom, a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.”

Some people are turned on by feet or latex. Others by sneezing, even quicksand. Fetishes can seem forbidden or even disturbing. But what makes one desire “normal” and another a fetish?

“We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip,” Davis-Fainbloom said.

She recommends a fetish revolution so people can enthusiastically embrace what lights them up. We’ll talk to her about what that would look like.

Guest:

Niki Davis-Fainbloom, sex educator; author, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On”

Lesley McClurg: Can you define fetish so we know exactly what we’re talking about?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: I think of a fetish as an erotic focus on something. It can be an object, a body part, a body action, and it’s something that most of the population doesn’t consider to be sexual, but the person finds it sexual. One thing that I found in my research that is different from what we often think about when we think about fetishes is that people with fetishes may have multiple erotic interests. It’s not necessarily the only thing that turns them on. I interviewed someone with a sneeze fetish, and they said they’re turned on by sneezes, long makeout sessions and massages. So, it can be one of many things that they find exciting.

What differentiates it from a preference is that they tend to be focused on and excited about it. I have someone on my Instagram who has a quicksand fetish, and anytime I post anything remotely in nature, he’s like, “I wonder what it would be like if there was quicksand there,” or, “Kind of looks like quicksand.” You can just tell that they’re enthusiastic about what their desire is, similar to the way a Trekkie might be, or someone who’s super into something.

Lesley McClurg: Is there usually an event that happened or some time that it sparked in them? Or is it unexplainable? How do people trace why they have the fetish they do?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: That was the most interesting parts of my research — asking people where it came from. For some people, it was just a fascination at first. It wasn’t erotic. It was just, “Oh, I really like playing in quicksand,” or, “I’m kind of interested in this material,” and as their sexuality developed, so too did they find ways to use this fascination in a sexual way. But for others, it can be more that something happened to get paired with their early sexual experiences. So, if the first time they discovered self-pleasure, they discovered it in their mom’s closet where there was a bunch of silk around, then it could be that through that association, moving forward in their lives, silk is something they find erotic. You’d call that classical conditioning, where there’s something that initially is random, and then because it’s paired with something that has such a strong emotional salience, it shifts the meaning of the other object. Researchers have given people fetishes for pennies and boots just by pairing them with images of sexy, naked women enough times. So, our brain is primed to attach that erotic meaning to anything if it is paired with something erotic.

Lesley McClurg: Can a fetish develop out of a painful experience? And if it does, can it then be enjoyable for the person?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: It can develop from a painful experience. People often think of fetishes as a result of trauma and, in my research, it was mostly out of pleasurable moments. But definitely it can also come out of these negative childhood experiences. When that happens, the person needs to work on parsing out the negative experience from their personal desire. And often that takes some processing, some therapy, but you can get to a place where you can really enjoy something even if it’s sparked from a negative experience.

Lesley McClurg: You say we need to have a fetish revolution, and clearly your title points to that — “Smash taboos and celebrate what turns you on.” Why are fetishes so taboo and so stigmatized, and how would we have a revolution?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: Even the word has a very negative connotation. We’ve done a lot of work reframing kink, different sexual identities, different types of relationship dynamics, and to me, fetish is the one poor dude that’s been left behind on the camping trip and is trying to get his way there. I think the reason for that is, very occasionally, there are people that act out fetishes in a way that’s unethical. The way the media works is, we point to the one-in-a-thousand story of someone who works at a shoe store just to get close to women’s feet unethically. There are also these stigmatized ideas of fetishes as something that’s practiced alone, as something that isolates you from others, and as something can be practiced unethically. I talk to a lot of people where they share that they have two selves — they have their fetish self and their other self. The reason it’s parsed out is because we still live in a society that’s struggling to become sex positive. And they feel that if they tell their partners, they’re going to be shamed. They feel like they kind of need to practice it alone. So, the revolution begins with education. It begins with sharing these stories, sharing what we know about where fetishes come from, and sharing that we’re actually all weirdos, so we’re actually very normal. Desire is strange and ridiculous.

Lesley McClurg: You write about one fetish, vore, and this is the fantasy of consuming or being consumed. What does that teach us about how a fetish works inside of our brain? Being consumed or consuming, how does that explain what fetishes are?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: It’s something that comes out of culture, I believe. Think of “Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,” or all these tropes that we might be raised with where people are either getting swallowed or almost getting swallowed. There’s the “Magic School Bus” episode. It’s a very interesting conceptual concept. And for some people, that concept becomes eroticized. One of my favorite coaching sessions I ever had was with a couple who, one of them was into vore, and it was very much a strategy session of figuring out how we can make their living room look and feel as much like the inside of a stomach as possible, so they could role-play it. And it was just really fun and creative to think about: what could it smell like? And we were looking up, like, the esophagus and getting fun and creative with it. When your partner is on board, it can be a really fun experience to have.

Lesley McClurg: Let’s say you’re listening to this, and you know you have a fetish, a fascination with something, and you haven’t disclosed it with anyone. How do you get comfortable with it yourself and then begin to talk about it?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: First of all, you’rereally, really not alone. I think sometimes people feel really alone with their desires. The first step is to find your community online, because basically any desire that’s out there, there are a lot of enthusiasts. Think of the Looners, people who are turned on by balloons. There’s over 5,000 people on chat rooms. Finding your community is really helpful. Doing the self-work first is really important because if you disclose when you still feel a lot of shame around it, then you’re likely to bring it up being like, “Hey, there’s this thing I’m turned on by. It’s actually really embarrassing. I can’t even believe I’m telling you this. It’s kind of gross.” The chances for your partner to be open to it if that’s the way you’re bringing it up are very low.

Lesley McClurg: How should you bridge that conversation with your partner? How can you talk about it positively so they embrace it?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: I wouldn’t just spring it on them, and I don’t think it should be talked about during any sexual activity. First, create a container, so saying, “Hey, why don’t we talk about fantasies tomorrow night? Let’s have a date night. There’s something I’ve been excited to talk to you about.” Also ask your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your dreams come true. What are some desires that you have? How can we explore them?” A lot of work that I do with couples is figuring out sexy plans. So it’s like, “What are some new things we want to try in the next year? How do we actually make it happen?” The hardest part is that first step. Think a little bit about why you’re sharing it with your partner. Are you sharing it because you just want them to know that sometimes you watch this porn and you don’t want to be secretive about it? Are you letting them know because you have ideas of how you’d be interested in exploring it with them? For you, is this something that’s essential in a relationship to explore with a partner? Or is it something that would just add a little juice, but if your partner is not down, you also feel okay? Because I think that also might depend on how early you want to bring it up in a relationship. Because if for you, it’s a deal breaker, then in the first few dates, it’s helpful to just see if there’s compatibility there. Because I’ve worked with a few couples where they go too hard too fast. And then we have to work on processing that before figuring out where to go from there.

Lesley McClurg: What if your partner is not down with it? Do you work with couples who manage to have a thriving relationship where one partner has to practice their fetish outside of the primary partnership?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: Yeah, I have worked with couples like that. It works well if there’s some type of open dynamic where they have someone else that they explore the fetish with, but they have more traditional sex with their partner. I think it gets tricky if people with more intense fetishes are less interested in having traditional sex. Then it’s sometimes harder for the partner that doesn’t have a fetish to have their pleasure. So that’s part of the navigation. But I’ve definitely worked with a lot of couples that have figured it out. The essence of it is if the partner can accept it and not make the other person feel bad for whatever turns them on, even if they don’t want to be a part of it.

Lesley McClurg: What if your fetish is dangerous? You talk about people in the book who have a fire fetish. How do you navigate your fetish if it could potentially go really badly?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: I don’t think there’s one right answer. The fire enthusiast I interviewed would say, “There’s a bigger risk of getting in a car crash on your way than dying through fire exploration.”

Lesley McClurg: I mean, that’s a fair argument, but I still don’t know if someone was like, “I want to light myself on fire while we’re having sex,” that I would be able to roll with it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: So I think with anything, we make decisions in our life that might cause harm. Similarly with smoking, with jumping out of planes. A lot of these dopamine-engaging experiences can have a level of harm. I think it’s up to the person to figure that out. If there’s a high chance of death, I think it’s unethical to do that. But if it’s like, one in a thousand chance you burn yourself and you’re in pain for a while. I think you can make that decision for yourself. I think what needs to be navigated is if you’re doing that with a partner and they’re not as excited as you are about it, I don’t think you should put yourself in danger to please a partner.

Lesley McClurg: How do you recommend people find more live humans to explore this with? You mentioned chat rooms, but how do we explore these person to person? And how do people begin to find out where their people are?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: Part of it is about expanding what might arouse you. People with fetishes sometimes have something specific that turns them on, but when they can be creative with it, it can be explored in a lot of different ways, and that’s why I want to create a space for all people with fetishes to talk. Right now, the communities are very dispersed, and they don’t really talk to each other or know much about each other. But there can be really interesting overlaps if people talk more about what is the underlying desire. For someone who is turned on by casts, maybe you realize you really like to take care of people, and you want to be in service. What are ways you can explore that? Maybe casts are sometimes part of that, but that doesn’t necessarily have to always be a part of it. If your mindset is that of being curious, because it’s so specific, the beginning of the exploration might be online. It might be going to sites like FetLife and seeing who has similar experiences. It also might be going to sex positive events in a place that seems safe, and a place where you can see where that overlap is and be creative about what that can look like.

Lesley McClurg: You close your book with one of the most surprising fetishes that you have come across, and it’s a very affirming story. Can you tell us about Randy?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: Randy is a great story. Randy is turned on by wet floor signs, and it’s really interesting because he gave himself the fetish through creating art around it. There was a character in a show he was in that had a wet floor sign hat. Rule 34 says if anything exists, there’s porn of it. But Randy realized that there wasn’t any wet floor sign porn. So he was like, “I’m going to be a revolutionary. I’m going to change that. I’m going to make some porn.” And in making the porn, he came to associate desire with what he was drawing.

Lesley McClurg: Any final words of advice for listeners in terms of giving themselves permission to explore this world?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: We spend much of our lives feeling like if we’re fully honest about whatever’s going on in our brain and we say it out loud, we won’t be accepted. But I do think that with the right people, you can be accepted for what it is that excites you. And it starts with one brave friend to bring up a topic at dinner, to get deeper, to be vulnerable and open. I hope that this book is a step towards us all being more open to talking about our desires, not just with our partners, but with other people, because life’s too short to feel alone. No matter who your people are, they’re out there. I’ve worked with so many people who spent 20 years feeling alone before they started taking the steps. And you need to wait. You can start today.

Lesley McClurg: Thank you, Niki.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom: Thanks so much for having me.

Lesley McClurg: Niki Davis-Fainbloom is a sex educator and author of the forthcoming book, “Fetish: Smash Taboos and Celebrate What Turns You On.” It’s out in October. Inside Love is a production of KQED, and we’d love to hear what you think. Our email is InsideLove@KQED.org. Our engineer is Katherine Monahan. Our producers are Susie Britton and Emiko Oda. I’m Lesley McClurg. Thank you so much for listening.

This transcript was lightly edited for clarity.

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