Taiwan and the Bay Area

Francisco Hsieh, Co-Chair, SF/Taipei Sister City Project: In Northern California we have 200,000-300,000 people from Taiwan. We have lots of events too. We have 200 associations. Those associations are from Taiwan: high tech associations, economic associations, and cultural associations. I belong to the "San Francisco-Taiwan Club." Each year during Christmas, we have the "Thousand People Dancing Night", which is a big party inviting parents and kids, and we all get together.

Teresa Wu, Executive Director, Chinese Newcomers Service Center: San Francisco is a city where a lot of Taiwanese long to come. They know there are lots of Asians and lots of Chinese here. But they do not come here searching for help because they are more established. They all have education and good jobs. Nowadays people from Hong Kong or mainland China come here searching for help.

Dr. Keelung Hong, Scientist, Cancer Research: When I came to Berkeley in 1970, I saw outspoken Taiwanese students. When I was in Taiwan, we were always reminded that we should not talk about politics. "Do not ever mention the 2-28 massacre." So I didn't know what was going on and I was so apolitical then. Living in Taiwan, Chinese always discriminated and considered us second class Chinese. We could not even speak our own language. I was brainwashed by all these years in school in Taiwan. But when I came to Berkeley, I started reading stories and history about Chiang Kai Shek that I didn't know before. I suddenly realized that Taiwanese identity was important to me. But KMT sent spies on campus to watch our activities. And we were all scared because we knew that we would be put in jail when we went back to Taiwan. Or we might never be able to go back to Taiwan because the KMT might not renew our passport or may not issue a visa. But if we did not do anything, there would be no freedom of speech, no freedom of expression for all our lives. We should speak out here in the United States. This is what I thought in 1970's and started to talk to the media and put political advertisements in the newspaper.

KQED Audience comments:

I think it's rediculous for the Berkeley student to use the analogy that since President Washington himself came from England and called himself an American, she feels the absolute right to call herself a "Taiwanese" rather than a "Chinese." A more appropriate analogy is perhaps for us living in California calling ourselves "Californian" instead of "American." After all, California has its own unique culture, slang, economic development, etc that are much different from the rest of the country. The fact is that Taiwan is merely a province of China. And I think those who were actively labeling themselves as "Taiwanese" really was trying to expressing their hatred towards mainland Chinese people. After all, Taiwanese people have been ruled, dominated, and oppressed by mainland Chinese political forces for several centuries. I must say that I'm sympathetic for those who have suffered under a repressive regime, but I am very relunctant to agree with the term "Taiwanese". The fact is that, no matter how they call themselves, people in the Western world will always look them as "Chinese." You do not call African Americans "Africans." Jeffrey Staceman   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:08

I lived in Taiwan for four years in the early 70s and knew even then that the moniker of "Free China" was a farce. There was always the pervasive fear of speaking out against the government as evidenced by my students reluctance to criticize the KMT, or ever bring up the 2-28 incident. I was there on the 25th anniversary of the massacre and remember all too well the mass mobilization of troops in the streets at night. What was also bizarre was how Taiwan would actively promote the sex trade by flying plane loads of Japanese businessmen for a weekend so they could screw their brains out, while concomitantly dragging any male with long hair to the police station. Just how free was this China that prohibited the sale of girlie magazines such as Playboy and arrested you if you had somewhat long hair?! frank yee   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:11

I disagree. The analogy with England and America is definitely more accurate than your idea of California and America. Taiwan's role as a province is sketchy at best. And for the record, it was ceded to Japan in a treaty in 1896 I believe. Then the Allies basically gave Taiwan to Chiang/KMT. You shouldn't perceive the emergence of Taiwanese identity as a threat to your identity. Identities change over time. Let these 20 million people have their own. Yours is in no danger of being lost. Another example: Mexican. Do Mexicans call themselves Spanish just because they were colonized by Spain a few hundred years ago? Don't be so prideful. Robbie Romano   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:12

The government on both sides have made terrible mistakes. And the people on both sides suffered a great deal. I am happy to see there have been positive changes on both sides. Let's grow stronger together. Let's not grow apart. Da Cheng   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:14

Sometimes you can grow closer by respecting eachother's distance. Like brothers who go away for school become better friends when they come home for vacation. Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:15

In response to Robbie, England and America are two different nations, and Taiwan was never an independent "nation" in world hisatory. That's what makes the difference. I am not taking the position w/ mainland Chinese, but my point is that unless they (mainlanders and people in Taiwan) think they are all Chinese, it would be very difficult for them to work together. Hatred from the Taiwanese people will not solve differences between them and mainland Chinese! Jeffrey Staceman   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:23

Thank you for a wonderful show. I would like to add my opinion about the "Taiwanese Identity" and that it is different to Chinese. The four main ethnic groups in Taiwan, throughout their struggle with the country's turbulent history in the past 50 years, have forged a new identity - Taiwanese. In fact, this has been happening since four hundred years ago when peasant and pirate immigrants landed on Taiwan and created a new community with the aboriginal people. The term "Taiwanese" is applicable to all people who were born, raised and grew up on Taiwan. The close tie to the land and a common fate compells Taiwanese to identify themselves with the island. I do not associate myself with the Chinese poeple simply because of the drastic difference in cultures, languages and political-enonomical systems. I am proud of the democratic movement and sacrifices and hardships endured by countless Taiwanese compatriots. We must rid ourselves off the baggage imposed on us by traditional Chinese values. The people of Taiwan are writing a new page of its own history and the people will be triumphant in the pursuit of the Taiwanese dream. Kyu Tyoin   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:24

I agree that hatred will solve nothing. If anything, let's go away from this urging our friends not to say hateful things. But I believe the Taiwanese people can choose their own identities. Taiwan has spend about 50 years under Japan and another 50 under KMT. I think things have evolved enough to be called "Taiwanese." Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:26

I am sorry but a lot of you who are arguing that there is no Taiwanese identity are just plain wrong. Are you suggesting that Singaporeans are Chinese as well? What the program has failed to mention is that absent the external mainland threat, the people of Taiwan will prefer and declare independence at this moment. You know it's really an insult to have people tell me that I am "this and not that." The fact of the matter remains, for the overwhelming majority of the people on Taiwan, we've never been to China, have no relatives there, but aboveall, our hearts are with Taiwan. It's that simple. mark hsu   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:32

Mr. Staceman, With all due respect, I find it hard to agree with your Americanized views. I understand that you have never lived in Taiwan and find it easy to trivialize the crisis there. Perhaps you are some two hundreds removed from the birth of this nation to remember that the colonies were once considered English. Yet the colonies eventually realized a culture of their own and sought their independence. The fact that Taiwan was once a province of China cannot override the significant cultural independence it has assumed since WW2. Your suggestion that hatred will not solve anything is wise, but please note that some hatred can inevitably arise if the political leaders of your neighbor is backward and militaristic. If you know more about the economic prosperity and social enlightenment of Taiwan compared to China you will understand why there is such opposition to immediate reunification. Granted there are some of those who are more passionate and are calling for Taiwanese independence, but at the same time imminent reunification is not an option as well. Above all, please do not trivialize Taiwan's relationship to China as California to the U.S. Taiwan has thrived under such different political and cultural influences that while it is politically dangerous to delcare itself a nation, it is certainly no longer a contemporary "province" of modern China. Lawrence   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:01

First of all, I like to thank KQED for another great program. I do want to voice my opinion that your identity is yours to choose. If a group wishes to identify themselves as Taiwanese, this is their choice. It is ridiculous for someone else to deny them of this choosen identity. It is wrong for groups to fight and even shed blood over such an issue. I identify myself as "American", do you deny me my identity because I was born in Taiwan? Do you feel the need to correct my identity? John Wang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:03

As a Mexican-American who is proud of my identity as both Mexican and American, I actually find it quite ironic and ridiculous that UC Berkeley Professor Ling-Chi Wang, who despite being an Ethnic Studies professor, tried to define the "Taiwanese" identity, the "Taiwanese" culture and the "Taiwanese" history as being "Chinese." Doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of "ETHNIC STUDIES?" I cannot believe that he, as an academic who studies ethnicity, would dare to define the "Taiwanese" and/or the "Taiwanese-American" identities for the Taiwanese/Taiwanese-American. Isn't identity a personal pursuit? Can't the "Taiwanese" people identify with being Taiwanese if they chose to, especially if they have vibrant cultural, social and political histories to back their identity. I sure wouldn't want anyone to define my "Mexican-American" identity. Robert Romano   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:16

I find it appalling that Ethnic Studies Professor Li Ching Wang attempted to define "Taiwanese identity, culture and history" to be "Chinese." Isn't that interesting, an Ethnic Studies professor defining for the Taiwanese, their chosen identity? A Berkeley Ethnic Studies student   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:55

Taiwanese identity awareness won't hurt the possible future unification with China. However, the continuous suppression of free thinking and imposing of ideology politically will split an already united nation. The people in China will gradually learn that a strong and long lasting Chinese central government must respect its ethnical, geographical or political minorities' rights. Chizen Chou   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 09:26

Great show and even better discussion. I was quite surprised to read Mr. Jeffrey Staceman's writing: "And I think those who were actively labeling themselves as "Taiwanese" really was trying to expressing their hatred towards mainland Chinese people." I am suprised becuase that sentence sounded like finger pointing. I think his words has some truth to it. But the truth also comes back to haunt it. The genealogy of the formation of this identity is very complicated and even ironical. So I am afraid that his analysis and analogy were too simplistic. I agree that a separate and independent Taiwanese identity wouldn't have taken place if not for the 228 incident, the White Terror and other countless politically repressive incidents. In this sense, it's easy to understand that why the resulting animosity necessarily nourished an growing distance in identity. But I think such distancing identity is also fed by the attitude of the so called mainlander themselves. For whatever reasons, from the very beginning, the original KMT regime (one that was dominated by the retreating mainlanders from China) has deployed an island wide policy that signaled a distinction and/or a difference between them and the native Taiwanese. For example, How else could one interprets a policy of forbidding the speaking of Taiwanese and the enforcement of Mandarin? Or the policy of promoting everything of Chinese in the mass media and suppressing or degrading things that are seen as belonging to the native Taiwanese culture? The implicating message is very clear. Firstly, that "We are superior". And secondly, a very important one, by ways of the first, is that "we are different". If indeed one truly believes Taiwanese are Chinese, that the two basically are the same, why alleviate one at the expense of the other? Where is this need to erase and rewrite coming from? The policy of the Nationalist mainlanders has ironically genesised and set in motion a separate Taiwanese identity. In 1998, now that the a fully democratic system in Taiwan has brought all the past injustices and taboos to come under the light of day, a genuine apology or gestures of understanding from a political leader of mainland descent, however, has yet to come forth. The party that unmistakably and apologetically represents the mainlander constituents has not shown much sympathy nor any understanding spirit toward the pains and injustices that the Taiwanese has suffered in the past. This is what I meant when I said that the truth came back to haunt itself. I am not sure if the mainlanders have ever tried to understand why some of the Taiwanese feel the way they do. Instead, I only see is their finger pointing at Taiwanese's hatred toward them. The finger pointing serves to justify themselves and continue to alienate the native Taiwanese. The whole issue has a complicated history behind it, but the solution isn't as complicated. It does no good to keep arguing that there is no separation, because the fact is that there are people already feeling that way. No amount of words trying to erase it can change the fact. I think if people from both camps takes the first steps to show their forgiveness and understanding, the schism could mend and reconciliation still has a chance. Franz Kafka   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 13:07

While the show brings up several good points, it left out several facts: 1) that "police riot" in Kaoshong, know as the May-Li-Dao ("Beautiful Island") Incident that the show glossed over, resulted in over 30 police hospitalized. Some were attacked by mobs using chains, metal clubs, and acid. It was hardly a "peaceful protest". 2) The show glossed over the Democratic Progressive Party's flag design: featuring prominently a symbol of Taiwan. I'll leave you to figure out what that means. 3) The show failed to mention the "New Party", which is an offshoot of the KMT. The New Party claims the KMT, or Nationalists, have lost its roots and the New Party will reclaim it. They use a modified version of the KMT flag. K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 17:21

Is there such a thing as "Taiwanese" identity? To me, a former citizen of Taiwan (naturalized US citizen now) the answer is NO, but there is such as thing as "Taiwan-flavored Chinese identity". Why? Because there is VERY LITTLE of Taiwan that is truly "native", other than the few native tribes that was here long before the Japanese and the KMT arrived. The "preferred" language of Taiwan, "Min-Nan-Yu", is a dialect of FuChien province of China. Even the "Taiwanese Opera", or Ko-Jai-Shee, that the show highlights is hardly original: it's a fusion of Canton and FuChien Operas. As for the Goddess Matsu, recently one of the Matchu temples WENT TO CHINA to bring back a new statue of her. Matsu is hardly a Taiwan-only goddess. Taiwanese is like Texan: they got their own style, but they are still Chinese and Americans respectively. K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 17:51

To K. Chang. I guess, by your definition, that Koreans and Japanese are Chinese too. Many of their beliefs and traditions came from China originally. Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:00

Why is there a "Taiwanese Identity movement"? IMHO, it's mainly due to a conflicting feeling of superiority AND helplessness. Superior? Taiwan is an economic miracle: one of the four dragons of Asia, with some of the best economy in the hemisphere. Taiwan merchants invest EVERYWHERE, including China. China's modernization plan will be YEARS behind schedule without unofficial Taiwanese help. This, plus the fact that "if you have money, you are welcome" attitude from China (highlighted in the show), made Taiwanese look down upon Mainland Chinese. They do NOT wish to be identified as Chinese any more since that is synomymous now with PROC, not ROC. The separate identity is clear in the Bay Area: there are FOUR distinct groups of Chinese-Americans: ABC (American-Born-Chinese), those that came from Taiwan (speaks Mandarin and/or Min-nan-yu), those that came from Hong Kong (speaks Cantonese), and those who came from China (speaks Pu-Tong-Hua, i.e. Mandarin). They speak differently and act differently. On the other hand, Taiwan businessmen feel helpless since ROC is not a "real" country, and thus lacks a lot of the diplomatic muscle when negotiating. ROC government also has a policy of cutting diplomatic ties to any country who recognizes Mainland China, which causes even more problems. The Taiwan Identity movement, if taken to its logical conclusion, would mean an independent Taiwan Government and a separate sovreign country. The movement leaders are rising on popular sentiment (in Taiwan, at least) about such an "ethical identity". The question is, AT WHAT PRICE? K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:28

To Robbie: No, Koreans and Japanese are NOT Chinese because 1) they have separate languages, both spoken and written, 2) their "separation" from China is many centuries ago, esp. you believe the story about Japan being a lost Chinese expedition. During all those years they remained separate, their culture became distinct. Korean culture is long respected as separate, since they offered tribute to many Chinese emperors long time ago. Japan simply did not remain in touch. K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:37

To Kenneth Tsai: I agree that New Party is hardly a "major" force, but it deserves a mention, even in passing, as part of the "demoncratization" process. After all, the US have Democrats, Republicans, Reform, Green, and Libertarian, right? IMHO, New Party is the "reactionary conservative right" element of KMT who didn't like the way KMT is "reinventing" itself to stay in the mainstream. They are hardly relevant to the Taiwan Identity issue, which is probably why they were not mentioned at all. K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:45

Well, Taiwan was separated for hundreds of years and became distinct too! No matter what we say here, you can see that millions of people call themselves Taiwanese. Fortuntaely, identity is something that is chosen, not something we can assign in this discussion. Ethnicity evolves. It's a fact of life. It's too bad Chinese people who can respect Korean culture cannot accept Taiwanese culture. Thankfully, they have no choice because it is distinct. Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:53

I grew up in Taiwan. I am 25 now ,and this is my first year in America. I should say that even the DIFFERENCE between "mainlanders' Chinese language" and "Taiwanese Chinese language" IS much greater than the difference between "British English" and "American English". The intonation of mainlanders' Chinese and Taiwanese Chinese are quite different; Actually, that's the easist way for police officers in Taiwan to differentiate those stow-aways from mainland China. Here, if my classmates from mainland China speak a little faster, it is very hard for me to understand what he/she is saying, just as it is very hard for me to understand English if it is spoken quickly. In addition, the WRITTEN Chinese charaters of mainland China and those of Taiwan are SIMPLY DIFFERENT now: Manilanders use a simplifed version of Chinese characters (actually, it is a result of the Cultural Revolution by communistists), while Taiwanese use traditional Chinese characters, known as the "Big-5" code. When I read papers written in simplified Chinese, I can only guess their central meaning by context, and it is impossible for me to do word-by-word translation instantly. Actually, we need to use different language code in internet web browsers; we also need some shareware programs to translate simplified Chinese to traditional Chinese, otherwise internet resource from mainland China is just NOTHING for us. Therefore, according to my 25-year observation of these differeces, I can draw an analogy that, if the SPOKEN English of British and America are 85% the same, SPOKEN Chinese of mainland China and Taiwan are at best 70% to 75% the same; if the WRITTEN English of British and America are 75% the same, WRITTEN Chinese are at best only 25% the same. NO DIFFERENCE?????? Kenneth   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 20:04

To Robbie: Taiwan was NOT separate for hundreds of years without Mainland China's influence like Japan or Korea. You can't really compare them. Saying Taiwanese is a separate ethnic group from Chinese is like saying Hispanics that live in the US is a separate ethnic group from those living south of the border. "Ethnic Identity" is chosen, you're right, but what is wrong with calling oneself "Taiwanese-Chinese" (like "Chinese-American")? Moreover, I have the utmost respect for Taiwan: I was born there. However, if the quest for ethnic pride causes the DESTRUCTION of Taiwan, I can live without it. Finally, ethnic pride and religion have caused plenty of wars in our time. Let us hope that the "Taiwanese identity" movement do not trigger a war. K. Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 21:00

I am a first-generation immigrant to USA. After all these years, I will have to say "To those who like to declare themselves as Chinese, let them be Chinese. To those who like to declare themselves as American, let them be American. So, to those who like to declare themselves as Taiwanese, let them be Taiwanese. OK? This is a free world. If you don’t like it, please move to place where you always like. You have a choice, do you? Meanwhile, do not force the other people to be called a name they simply don’t like it. Especially, threatening them a war will be pushing them farer. THANKS TO KQED!!!! G.Chen   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 22:02

To K. Chang. We were talking about Taiwan's status as a province or a nation-state -- it was considered uninteresting and then ceded away in 1896. In terms of ethnic group, you mention Hispanics. Descendents of Mexico who live in South West USA have the same skin color as Mexican people south of the border, but a different identity now. They consider themselves Americans, Tejano-Americans, or Chicano-Americans. Their identities are different. The language has changed, so has the food. Same thing in Taiwan. Why can't Chinese people accept a Taiwanese identity -- a nationality combined with regional flavors to create something new? I think this is the issue: Chinese people bind up nationality, ethnicity, identity, and culture all up into one thing. This cultural pride doesn't make sense because Chinese culture is in no danger of being forgotten. Taiwanese identity isn't a movement. It's a reality. And if it triggers a war, so be it. You can't change the fact that ethnicity evolves. The people of Taiwan have changed over time. Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 22:27

By the way, most Chinese from Asia directly or indirectly support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, in order to seize the island. The Chinese believe that nationalism in the name of race is more important than human rights or human life. When Jiang Zemin visited Japan last month,the supposed Chinese "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy" organizations strongly condemned Jiang for not getting a written apology from Japan. However, when Jiang again threatened to invade Taiwan, killing its women and children, the Chinese were silent. ------------------------------------------------------ In March 1996, when the Chinese threw missiles at Taiwan, only the Taiwanese demonstrated against the barbarism. The Chinese in California (and elsewhere) either were silent or were supporting the Chinese attack on Taiwan. Several Chinese were interviewed at local Silicon Valley companies, and they are recorded in the local San Jose newspaper as (1) supporting the barbarism and (2) demanding that American warships get out of the Taiwan area in order to allow the Chinese take back "their island" so that it can re-join "the Chinese motherland". ---------------------------------------------------------- If you question what I say, I strongly urge you to prove me wrong. I want you to prove me wrong. Please find 3 articles (in any reputable Western source) reporting how the Chinese in supposed "human-rights" organizations or "pro-democracy" organizations condemned the March 1996 missile attack. ---------------------------------------------------------- Sadly, you will not be able to find such articles. ---------------------------------------------------------- I really wish that Western news organizations would stop assuming that simply because a Chinese-dominated organization claims to be "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy", that said organization necessarily condemns invading Taiwan. On the contrary, most Chinese in general and most Chinese in such organizations support invading Taiwan. For the Chinese, racist nationalism is more important than human rights. S. K.   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 23:01

It was a great episode from KQED to present the balanced views from different sources. If one looks back in the histories of most of the countries, the leaders used different measures at the different times to control a perceived chaotic situation due to paranoid and the fear of losing power. Of course, this is in no way the justification for everything happened in Taiwan, but it did happen that way. It was the self-preserving and surviving instinct of human being at other people’s expenses, just the scale was much larger than the family feud. Those measures included the brainwash, controlled media, intimidation, jail and even murder and mass murder. The past 50 years was a sad and dark period for Taiwan, it was the economic super growth with the expense of human rights. The situation has been dramatically improving since 1987. With many people's blood paved the way, many broken family sacrificed, Taiwan is now a better place. How long did it take for North and South to live peacefully side by side? How long did it take to heal the feeling of Civil War for brothers killing brothers? A long, long time. Sooner or later the healing has to begin, and trust has to be rebuilt somewhere, I would prefer it sooner than later and the places are both in here Bay Area, the molten pot of the world, and in Taiwan. Spreading hatred, inherent the bad feelings from the previous generation, and promoting conflicts do not do anyone any good. I would like to encourage everyone involved in this, let’s look forward to the 21st century. Let’s bury the hatred from the last generation, just like people in the US, let’s start a long recovery journey. Staying in the US, especially in Bay Area, should expand our global view, let’s transform anger to energy, let’s strive for the better mankind, the Earth is big enough for everyone want to contribute and move forward. Millennium later, none of us will exist; I hope, so does the hatred among Taiwanese, Chinese ….. and the human race. Happy Holiday to Everyone! W. Chen   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 23:33

I think Lily, the student from UC Berkeley was correct in pointing out that "Taiwanese" culture and identity is a "fusion" of what is indigenous, Japanese, Chinese and Dutch, outside and foreign influences that have come to be "Taiwanese." Sonny Le is correct in saying that the indigenous in Taiwan have been persecuted, along with other "native" Taiwanese. However, I don't think anyone in the Bay Windows personal documentary denied that. In fact, as I said, Lily did mention the indigenous cultures in Taiwan as being included as "Taiwanese." Also, Artist Mynor King, who was also protrayed in the documentary, seems to be commited to preserving the "Taiwanese culture," including indigenous cultures that the Chinese in Taiwan have suppressed for so long. Tom, Taiwanese-American from San Jose   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 00:39

More comments about SEPERATION: Just before Americans' Independence, Americans were ruled by ONE British government. Their tax went to the Britsh government; In contrast, Taiwan has NOT been ruled by any governements in mainland China for more than 100 years, counting from the year when Taiwan was GIVEN to Japan as a sacrifice for losing a war. Since than, seperation formally began; Not only Taiwan was not governed by any governments in mainland China anymore (except just less than 4 years after World War II, when KMT was not accepted by most people in mainland China anymore), but people in both sides seldom contacted with each other. All these truths show that the SEPERATION between Twain and mainland China is much more severe than that between America and British before the Independence of America. Today, Taiwain is proudly runing its own democratic government, while mainland China is still running her old-fashioned communism system. The living statand of most people in mainland China is still far behind Taiwanese people. Being a Taiwanese citizen, I can not find any resonalbe tendency for Taiwan to decare heself being part of mainland China anymore. Just as our foreign minister says in the program, "Maybe one day, when the gap can be narrowed....", I can not 100% rule out the possibility of unification in the very long future, but let's just leave the problem to be decided by our children!! The existance of a independent, peace-loving nation on the beautiful and rich Formosa island is as true as 1+1=2; Whether we Taiwnese people claim our country as "Republic of China" (written in my Passort to US) or simply "Taiwan" is our own business; It is the most rediculous thing in the world that the government of mainland China now still claim they have the 'right' on our nation. Don't you eropean-Americans get angry if one day British people claim that your nation are part of British simply because some of your ancestors came from England and your are still speaking English?? Stop your rasism toward Taiwan, mainland China!! Aren't you bad enough for people in Tibet?? Kenneth Tsai   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 03:32

I have a lot of very nice good friends who consider themselves as Chinese-Taiwanese, pure-Taiwanese(even they are not the Native Taiwanese), pure-Chinese(either from mainland China or Taiwan), Chinese-Taiwanese-American, Chinese-American, Taiwanese-American, or just American. I also know some of people they are not so nice in the same categories. I am a genuine Taiwanese? Or am I? My great, great grand parents came to Taiwan long ago from Fu-Chen Province of Mainland. I have proof for that. I speak fluent Taiwanese, I learned Chinese in the school. I can even mimic the Mainland Chinese with a lot of tongue curlings. When I did that people think I am from H.K.. -----------------------------------------------------------I have heard some genuine bad deeds done by KMT from my friends and relatives. They were the innocent people happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Of course, in the war-threatened island, there were not many right places, and most of the times were bad times. ------------------------------------------------ After KMT conducted all those bad deeds of deceiving and murdering, my grand parents got their land back as the farmers. Do I want to be thankful to KMT to give back our rightful property or hateful to them to hold it so long? I do not know, because I do not have the bad experience with them. I blindly follow the education system in Taiwan like most of the people in the world. I did not know what I was going to be someday, I passed the grand exam, got into good high school. And then I got "conned" into joining KMT as a student member, and found out it was not that bad. I got freebie of all the trainings including leadership and other very useful knowledge, however did not include the spying and all other things people believe KMT was doing. Maybe my rank was not high enough. I was KMT student leader in the college. Still did not get the chance to learn the 007 stuff, just many more intensive training. People can say I was used by KMT, maybe I was, but I knew I was not. People can believe what they want to believe. Like every political party, there are always good policies conducted by bad people and bad policy modified by good people. Sometimes the results were amazing. What I am trying to say here is, experience shapes what people do things, and good people will do good deeds, the same with the other way. I consider myself is a good person. What I am doing now is helping the world economy with great design in electronic gizmos, I guess I owe it to my education and training both in Taiwan and US. Some of you probably owe your convenience to me for my meager contribution in the technological advancement of the world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It’s sad that people are trying assert their opinion on their limited knowledge and hate others who do not share their views. I am not sure where Lily and Rosie studied when they were in Taiwan or were they studying in Taiwan at all? Seems to me they are describing someplace different from my own experience in School. Of course, studying in Cupertino would be a different experience than studying somewhere even in the Bay area with a lousy teacher and metal detector campus which I do not have any experience. Lily and Rosie I believe are generation-X new people, I believe that they have the good life living in US from the age of eight, I also believe that their parents were probably severely hurt by KMT. I have a great sympathy for them and hat off for them for fighting democracy in Taiwan. They are the generation-Sacrifice. What I do not understand is both Lily and Rosie are still carrying the banner for their parents, and against the people most of whom are either dead or dying. And maybe they are trying to create the new enemies so the banner can be held on. Taiwan Independence Banner? I am against Taiwan independence. Lily and Rosie are not going back to fight for Taiwan if the war breaks out. They will be watching CNN and analyzing the situation and … and making a loud comments on how great it is for Taiwan Liberation. Even if they want to, their parents are probably persuade them not to. "Because, you are American!" Am I dumb-down by KMT’s influence? Am I an enemy? You tell me. Don’t get me wrong, I am very appreciated to those people who were fighting for what Taiwan has become today. But I do not wish to see another tragic bloodshed in Taiwan Strait. I still have a lot of relatives over there. It is just not fair to set up fire and ask others to take care of it. Time is different. I prefer to use other way to solve the problem. If we can not solve it, time will. Peace on Earth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MT Lee   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 04:38

I think no one in the program said KMT is still bad today. There is no fault being in the KMT and/or becoming possible leader of KMT. But, for those who are in KMT, they should still bear in their mind that KMT indeed made many Taiwanese felt not good in the past. It is just like that being the new generation of Japanese and German is not guilty, but they should remember their past history, rather than just request people "watch for the future". Kenneth Tsai   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 06:26

Most of the comments posted here left out one major factor: The US foreign policies during the Cold War. In the efforts to contain the so-called spread of communism, the US aided and supported repressive, brutal dictatorship regimes around the world. One can even argue that the US repressive foreign policies are still carried on today. Today it is called anti-terrorism and anti-international drug trafficking. Noam Chomsky, the prolific MIT linguist, has pointed out with plenty of evidence that there are two United States of Americas: The domestic one and the external one. The external US of A, whose foreign policies licensed it as the world cop, is a brutal, repressive and racist one. The KMT of Taiwan with Chiang Kai Shek as its chief was no different from that of Mobuto Sesse Seko of Congo/Zaire, Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines, Park Chung Hee of South Korea, pre-1975 Republic of South Vietnam, Suharto of Indonesia, Augusto Pinochet of Chile -- the list goes on and on. The campaign of terror and violence to suppress the opposition was known and condoned by the CIA. The CIA and the US military intelligence spied on both the KMT and the budding democratic movement in Taiwan at the time. Taiwan's secret police and the internal security apparatus were aided by the US military and foreign aids and the help of the CIA advisors. Why didn't the US stop the human rights abuse there and then? It could have intervened! It is remarkable considering that Taiwan has been democratized for only 10 years. It is even more remarkable considering how much the people of Taiwan have achieved in such a short period. I was glad to see in both programs that people have chosen to look toward the future of building a just and democratic society -- whether it is on Taiwan or the rest of China. Taiwan and its people can be a beacon of hopes for the rest of Asia considering what is now going on in Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, and even South Korea. But if we are to examine the recent political past, don't leave the US unblamed. Sonny Le, Oakland   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 08:46

To Robbie: Chinese have a LONG tradition of TOTAL ethnic identity. There's well over 50+ smaller tribes absorbed into "Chinese" culture. The Han Dynasty absorbed the Manchus/Ching Dynasty, and the Republic is born from that. It's ONLY in the past 50 years that there suddenly are "two groups" of Chinese, those that came from KMT/Taiwan, and those that came from Mainland. And the truth is, Taiwanese do NOT wish to be identified as Chinese, or even Taiwanese-Chinese. They don't want to be confused with people from China, the communist nation that is only now stepping into the modern age. That's why the differences between "Taiwanese" culture vs. Chinese culture was played up, esp. in this documentary. The differences exist, but that's closer to the difference between Texas and California, than between two sovreign nations. Is it big enough to call for an independence movement? Only the people can decide. Let's not forget Puerto Rico: VERY similar situation closer to home! ---- Taiwanese do NOT like reunification since they will be just "Chinese". They have looked DOWN upon other Chinese for a long time with their economic miracle, while China lost decades of developement in the Cultural Revolution. Remember, "ethnic pride" is not that far away from racism. ---- I just want to point out that there may be some hidden agenda in the "Taiwanese Identity" movement that supporters may not be aware of. K. Chang   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 18:20

To K. Chang: "They (Taiwanese) have looked DOWN upon other Chinese for a long time with their economic miracle...." As a person from Taiwan, I don't feel that way at all. I respect my Taiwanese parents and grandparents because they have endured much hardship in their lives. I also feel for the Chinese in mainland who are afraid of expressing their opinions. I don't believe in pointing finger to another group of people canl make the complex issue clearer. The "economic miracle" is a term that was invented by the western academic for their lableing convience, not the reality that the Taiwanese people live. In Taiwan, people know how hard life was before Taiwan became one of the four tigers in Asia. Maybe some people do have an attitude when they are rich, but the majority of the Taiwanese, like most people on earth, live an honest and hard-working simple life. I have also worked with politicians in Taiwan who are pro-independence. Even within one political party, there are different theories and arguments against each other in their claim for independence and ethnic identities. All the disagreements will be resolved through a democratic voting process. I think this process does not go with the concept of "hidden agenda". I hope people who feel bad about "Taiwanese identity" can visit Taiwan themselves. I have never been to China, but I know many Chinese friends in the Bay Area. I like them a lot simply because we are good friends and we appreciate each other. I hope I can visit China to see the beautiful land and hopefully to make better judgement about the differences between China and Taiwan. I think the differences should be respected with a sense of appreciation. Katherine Lee   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 23:07

This is a message to Jeffrey Staceman 1) Taiwan is a country not a state. California is a state not a country. 2) Taiwan was controlled by Japan for 50 years. When does Taiwan cease to become a province? 3) Mr Staceman, you are correct that we do not call African Americans Africans. They are called African Americans. Chinese Americans are called ChineseAmericans. Therefore, Taiwanese American should be called Taiwanese American. 4) Where you are from is in your mind not in geographical boundries. Thank you. Mary Lee Mary Lee   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:31

TAIWANESE Culture? Identity? I don't care if you are taiwanese culture, korean culture or south african culture, if you live on the island of taiwan, you are a part of the great chinese culture. Be a minority if you want, there are 56 of them in China, one more doesn't hurt! The issue of taiwan independence is a political one! The people in hongkong find it quiet ackward to think they are now a part of the old China after 100 years. Many find it hard to think they are also Chinese like the Chinese on the mainland. That's ok. Time will change all that. Hong Kong is a part of China nonetheless, so is Taiwan. LP   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:40

To K. Chang: By saying that "That's why the differences between "Taiwanese" culture vs. Chinese culture was played up, esp. in this documentary. The differences exist, but that's closer to the difference between Texas and California, than between two sovreign nations.", I suppose you believe people with similar enough cultures should be united under a single sovereign nation. I can't agree with that. There are different countries with similar cultures, and also many multi-cultural countries. It's an important factor, but neither necessary nor sufficient. I do agree with you that it's up to TAIWANESE PEOPLE's wills. But can we? The Chinese gov't keeps telling us we have the same ethnic and cultural origins, therefore we should reunite. Meanwhile it threatens to use military forces if we choose otherwise. We all can have different opinions toward reunification and Taiwan Independence. But if we don't respect/support Taiwanese people's choice, then the whole thread is pointless. Why bother? The Old Brother in China will tell us what to do. H.K. Chien   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:42

Chinese Aggression against the Taiwanese By the way, most Chinese from Asia directly or indirectly support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, in order to seize the island. The Chinese believe that nationalism in the name of race is more important than human rights or human life. When Jiang Zemin visited Japan last month,the supposed Chinese "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy" organizations strongly condemned Jiang for not getting a written apology from Japan. However, when Jiang again threatened to invade Taiwan, killing its women and children, the Chinese were silent. In March 1996, when the Chinese threw missiles at Taiwan, only the Taiwanese demonstrated against the barbarism. The Chinese in California (and elsewhere) either were silent or were supporting the Chinese attack on Taiwan. Several Chinese were interviewed at local Silicon Valley companies, and they are recorded in the local San Jose newspaper as (1) supporting the barbarism and (2) demanding that American warships get out of the Taiwan area in order to allow the Chinese take back "their island" so that it can re-join "the Chinese motherland". If you question what I say, I strongly urge you to prove me wrong. I want you to prove me wrong. Please find 3 articles (in any reputable Western source) reporting how the Chinese in supposed "human-rights" organizations or "pro-democracy" organizations condemned the March 1996 missile attack. Sadly, you will not be able to find such articles. I really wish that Western news organizations would stop assuming that simply because a Chinese-dominated organization claims to be "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy", that said organization necessarily condemns invading Taiwan. On the contrary, most Chinese in general and most Chinese in such organizations support invading Taiwan. For the Chinese, racist nationalism is more important than human rights. The concept of right and wrong held by the Chinese is fundamentally different from the concept of right and wrong held by us in the West and Japan. s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:20

To Bobbie Romero: "Mexico who live in South West USA have the same skin color as Mexican people south of the border, but a different identity now. They consider themselves Americans, Tejano-Americans, or Chicano-Americans. Their identities are different. " Bobbie, you need to smart up! Using you analogy, the chicanos can occupy a provice of mexico and declare independence? if you want to be american and forget about your mexican backgroud, you have all the rights to do so, as far as you stay here! (sadly, while you are here in the States, all of us, american or xxxx-american, will consider you a mexican. don't tell me it's not so, just because you get paid more than $5/hr.) To all the TIer (mark hsu, etc), don't pretend to be brave by shouting slogans standing on American soil. If you truely love the island, go back and stay there, evolve with it, fight for/with it! The Taiwan issue needs to be resolved by people who LIVES on both sides of the Strait! You TIers are putting everyone's life in danger, while enjoy you own american or space traveller previlleges! As for the Chinese vs Korean/Singaporean analogy, you can either find a piece of land which is never a part of Chinese kingdom, stay there and delcare you are whatever you want to be! Don't steal the the Chinese Cultural, especially, Don't steal the Chinese land/island! You should not even dare as China is growing stronger! For people who may not know, the term Chinese does not mean ethnic Han only. historically, China kingdom has been ruled by ALL kinds of people with different ethnic backgrounds. China/Chinese culture belongs to all of them and their decendants, as well as those who lives in all corners of the world, yet identify them to the Chinese Culture/Land. Again, Don't steal the the Chinese Cultural, especially, Don't steal the Chinese land/island! Benjamin   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 17:49

To H.K.Chien, who wrote: "I suppose you believe people with similar enough cultures should be united under a single sovereign nation. I can't agree with that." I am afraid you did not read me correctly. I am merely pointing out that the program is hardly impartial, as it highlighted all the differences without pointing out that the differences are the EXCEPTION rather than the rule, and a LOT of the culture between China and Taiwan are still the same. "I do agree with you that it's up to TAIWANESE PEOPLE's wills. But can we? The Chinese gov't keeps telling us we have the same ethnic and cultural origins, therefore we should reunite. Meanwhile it threatens to use military forces if we choose otherwise." Unfortunately for the Taiwanese people, the Chinese government have to power to backup its threats. Still, there is hope that they have kept the peace for all these years. "We all can have different opinions toward reunification and Taiwan Independence. But if we don't respect/support Taiwanese people's choice, then the whole thread is pointless." And what IS Taiwanese people's choice? By reelecting President Lee, they want status quo, NOT independence OR reunification, yet that is NOT the impression you get from the program, which emphasize Min-Gin-Dang (Democratic Progressive Party) and their founding members, how "heroic" was their struggle, how "oppressive" was the KMT government, how "peaceful" was their protest... NOT! As I wrote in an earlier message, the May-Li-Dao Incident is NOT a peaceful march, it was a FULL SCALE RIOT, with SCORES of policemen hospitalized, many in critical condition. That is my point: this program, while it brings up some interesting historical perspectives, is biased toward the DPP, which is a MINORITY in Taiwan, and that, is its PRIMARY failing. K. Chang   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 22:08 GMT

KMT people were not stupid. They imposed order. Without order, nothing works. Under the strict order, the country was stable then they started to implement policies. It was not perfect and also not the only way, but it was the way they knew how. If Taiwanese was in the same position with the power, they would probably be doing the same thing and then the victims would be KMT. If not, the country would be chaotic and both Taiwanese and KMT mainlander would probably be assimilated by Communist. That would spare us to have this kind of passionate discussion today. What makes Taiwan so successful today is their education system. They had the best public school system even with today’s standard with a lot of the teachers from Teacher Colleges/Universities(training people to become teacher). One can suspect the intent was to create the unified brainwash machine because they clone their teachers so the teachers can clone students. But with all these voices in Taiwan, Bay Area and the world, they must have done an awful job for the brainwash machine. The best universities in Taiwan today are still the public ones. You do not need to have a rich family to get into the best school as long as you prove that you are capable through the national exam (some modification in recent years). Bottom line is KMT also knew that education was a double-edged sword, they needed that to rebuild the country, but at the same time they would be losing the control of the people and losing power. They still implemented the great, but risky (for them) education policy(system), that showed the vision and the courage even if they may not maintain the power and control someday. Not like mainland China in the same period of time, under the culture revolution, they burned books and most of the written knowledge, because Mao knew this double-edged sword too, just decided to take the other option. Decades later, the dramatic difference between two sides are obvious. Taiwanese once was the most admitted foreign students in the US universities, it is encouraging to see Chinese is taking over the honor. Taiwan changed because of that, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that someday you will see the similar thing in China. S. Huang   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 23:52 GMT

to S. Huang: Sounds like you also like Hitler pretty much. made in taiwan   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 00:36 GMT

FROM KQED ADMINISTRATION: Thank you for your participation in the first KQED Bay Window dialogue online. The Comment Board will receive new postings until Fri. 12/18/98 5pm Pacific Standard Time. If you have specific suggestions for other forums in which to continue the dialogue, please post them before that time. Look for up-coming Bay Window specials on KQED TV9 and visit us online again next time. * Note: Times are posted in Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) because the Web is an international medium. On the basis of audience feedback, the times will be set in Pacific Standard Time on future comment boards. Thank you. KQED Administration   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 03:15 GMT

TO: made in taiwan -- You see, KMT or their education system did not brainwash you or change your personality. You still sound very intelligent- know the shortest distance between the good and the evil is by linking them with a label, it saves your time and is very efficient. That proves my point, people teach you knowledge but can not change your mind, once you are a stubborn person, you are doomed to be stubborn forever. Tell you what, I do not even like KMT that much, but it does not matter what I say, you have labeled me as a Hitler admirer, based on what? Isn’t this strange? you don’t even know me at all. I am not that bad. People, open your mind, listen to different opinions. With a few Taiwanese like you, having this kind of bunker mentality, refusing to listen to different views, trying to shut down voices different from yours with labeling scheme......it just turns people off, you will have less and less friends. Maybe you do not need my kind. But you can see, my kind is also intelligent people too. My kind can be your best friend or your worst nightmare. Think about it. Well, enough said, I will let people be the judge. S. Huang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 03:36 GMT

Government is ran by a bunch of bureaucrats and politicians to serve what they perceive as "good" for their "people"'s(including their own) interest.[MOVIE: enemy of state, the siege, etc] The effectiveness is backed up by the military power in international playground. [Operation Desert Fox] Therefore: ------------------------------------------------------------ TI is doomed unless: Taiwanese could protect themselves(unrealistic) or US would suffer foreseeable human life losses to declare war against china(political suicide). ------------------------------------------------------------ END OF STORY BIG FISH EATS SMALL FISH   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 04:06 GMT

I am a 2nd generation, ethnic Chinese who know lives in the Bay Area. My grand-parents were born in China, but literally left right before the Nationalists fled to Taiwan. They left and settled in South Vietnam, along with many,many other Chinese. There, many of their children were born. With the civil war there, they fled and eventually came to America. Despite the fact that both my parents were born in Vietnam, they identify themselves as being Chinese. I do too, despite being EXREMELY separated from China by distance and time. However, we have noticed that many Taiwanese, not all, but many Taiwanese treat us differently. When we say that we are Chinese, they act as though they are better than us. Though this is not the case with all Taiwanese, it is a reality. My uncles and aunts share a subtle animosity towards many Taiwanese because of the way they were treated by them. Because of my family's personal experiences with some Taiwanese, I do have to agree with K. Chang when he says that Taiwanese look down upon other Chinese. I also have a comment to make on Taiwanese culture, however, I must agree with the Berkeley Ethnic Studies Professor. Taiwanese culture is different, but it is the same with Shanghainese, Cantonese, Chaozhou(Teochew) culture. They ARE ALL RADICALLY different from each other in many ways. Chaozhou is more different from Shanghai than it is from Taiwanese culture. What everyone needs to keep in mind, especially people who are not of Chinese origin, including many Taiwanese, is that when you use the word Chinese, you can not simply imply ONE STOIC culture. I have found that many Taiwanese, and many American born Chinese seem to think that all of China is the same. IT ISN'T! Would you call Shanghainese people ethnically different from Hong Kong people? NO. Despite the fact that they have radically different histories, they are in fact ethnically Chinese. The same is true with Taiwan. Taiwanese culture is of course different, but when compared with the myriad sub-Han cultures of China, it can ONLY be classified as being a regional culture. Every region of China differs in history. The entire country simply is not ONE entity with ONE history. Many Taiwanese people need to understand that. The person who calls himself Robbie used a totally out of context comparison in using Latino-Mexican differences when he compared his perception of Chinese culture with that of Taiwan. The language many Taiwanese call Taiwanese is actually a Chinese dialect, with many millions, more than the entire population of Taiwan itself, of Chinese people who speak it. Are you to say that those people on the mainland are actually speaking Taiwanese? Also, I have seen and know about the opera performed in Taiwan. I do have to say that Chaozhou opera is more different from Peking Opera than it is from Taiwanese opera. I also have to add that I was offended by the portrayal of Matsu in the documentary, and by many Taiwanese views about her. She simply is not something worshipped only inTaiwan. Both my parents who saw the documentary were surprised by the assertion that she came from, and is only worshipped in Taiwan. They were born in Vietnam, and know that she is worshipped there by the native Vietnamese also. I feel that before many Taiwanese make the conclusion that they are different from "Chinese" culture, they need to research what Chinese culture really is in depth. It is simply not one easily defined thing, it is a combination of many different regional Han Chinese and sometimes other ethnic group cultures. In China, there are more differences between Beijing people and Cantonese people, than there are between Cantonese people and Taiwanese people. Yet they are all essentially Chinese in cuture. This is simply because they all share pretty much the same cultural connotations, the same groudwork. I have found that many Taiwanese simply don't even know that there are many varied differences in Chinese culture in China itself. Many simply cast the country off as one thing, one large thing entirely removed from themselves. D.T.   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 11:58 GMT

To D.T.: I am from Taiwan. I am sorry that you and your family have nagative impression about Taiwanese people. Taiwanese people live in a society that has a self-rule government after so many years of democratic struggle. That does not mean that Taiwan is an independent country now. That simply reveals a basic fact that after so many years of separation from China, Taiwan has very different politics. Time is an important factor for human being to form their viewpoint about history. It also does not mean that Taiwanese don't understand the diversity inside China. Many of my Taiwanese friends who have traveled in Mainland China told me how much more they have learned from traveling than from reading books about China. It shows how important it is for all Chinese to communicate and understand each other. YKL   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:12 GMT

To "Big Fish Eats Small Fish": if you think movies like "The Siege" or "Enemy of the State" reflects reality, what are you doing watching Public Television? K. Chang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:51 GMT

My fellow Taiwanese. It does not take away most of the Taiwanese’s credit for building up Taiwan to admit that KMT has done a few good jobs for Taiwan, like I said, in education area, in addition, the land policy, the infrastructure, and the economy policy. Even if they had quite a few major screw-ups in human rights in the past, but let’s be fair, so does every country in the world, including the one we are in now. I can assure you that most of the people support the reasonable moderate, not the radical extreme. We, the Taiwanese people, should have confidence in ourselves. We tolerate the different opinion. We do not trash any reasonable counter-argument. We criticize the past regime, in the mean time, we give the government proper credit. We are fair mind people. We are for long term prosper Taiwan without the mass destruction, and we are flexible enough to use any way we can to achieve the goal, not just one way - the suicide mission of independence. S. Huang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 19:23 GMT

Suicide mission? Why do Chinese people like to threaten other people or among themsleves? This is a very interesting cultural phenomenon to me. Since you stated that "we tolerate the different opinion", then how come some opinions, in your judgement, is "suicidal" ? Why not tolerate it and co-exist with the "different opinion" ? Taiwan-born Chinese Taiwanese   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 19:49 GMT

P.S. I suggest that you wait until the mad dog dies, or until the mad dog is cured. Any other way would be better than you bite the dog, the mad dog gets madder and yourself gets sick. S. Huang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 21:02 GMT

TO: Taiwan-born Chinese-Taiwanese --- You are right. I shouldn't have said that is a suicide mission. The correct term should be a mutually destructive mission. But the results would not be different, great casualties on both sides. Chinese/Taiwanese society will go back for at least 50 years. Think about it. If China were attacking Taiwan which they said they would if Taiwan declares independence, and let also assume Taiwan would attack Shanghai and its vicinity as a counter measure. We can make 40 million people miserable just in one shot. The ripple effect can reach to 1 billion people in China, a few more billion in the world. It will be something no one wants to see. Why do Chinese leaders would do that? I am not able to get into their heads and explain it to you. What I can be sure is, no matter what is the reason, is not you and me can comprehend. The peculiar mentality and the reasoning in China leaders are beyond the discussion here. It’s a mad idea. Let’s assume it is true. Then we should try our best to avoid the direct confrontation. This is not cowardice, this is a rational decision against a mad one. If a mad dog is trying to bite you, would you just go away and/or find some other strategy to avoid it. You would not bite the mad dog back, would you? P.S. I suggest that you wait until the mad dog dies, or until the mad dog is cured. Any other way would be better than you bite the dog, the mad dog gets madder and yourself gets sick. S. Huang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 21:07 GMT

To K.Chang: You could learn how much baloney people are willing to put out and to believe by watching PBS(which is considered more or less unbiased). They just don't want to know and accept the cold bloody reality. ------------------------------------------------------------ TALK IS CHEAP. ------------------------------------------------------------ BIG FISH EATS SMALL FISH   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 21:40 GMT

S. Huang: The Mad God theory might lead to a conservative timid foreign policy for Taiwan. Is it possible that we also underestimate the ability of rational thinking of the Chinese government? Of course I hope by communicating more with them, we will foster understanding and strategies toward China. Taiwan-born Chinese-Taiwanese   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 22:29 GMT

I do not think people will intentionally go into the mutual destructive mode. But if they are provoked and cornered, they will be jumpy. And it is very hard to predict what jumpy people will do, they usually don't think, they react. A series of mutual reactions can lead to a disaster fast! S. Huang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 22:54 GMT

To D.T.: Thank you for your very thoughtful comments and insights. I wish people who participate in this kind of forum take a bit more time and forethought before trashing and invalidating each other's points of view. There are no such things as right or wrong opinions. Another thing, can people use spell-check or consult the dictionary every now and then? Take your time, please people! I am new to cyberforum. Why don't people use their real names? Stand by your opinions and comments! Sonny Le, Oakland   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 22:58 GMT

Thanks to all participants. Visit us again for the next Bay Window, January 26th from 8-10pm on Astronauts.