Taiwan and China

Jean Cheng, Filmmaker: Taiwan has 21 million people, and China has a billion people. I think Taiwan were absorbed into China, a lot of the democratic gains that it has made in the past 10 years would be lost. Taiwan would suffer greatly because it is tiny compared to China. I don't think that the Chinese government has the best track record in terms of human rights, or in terms of being open to other ways of existing politically. So, if Taiwan were absorbed into China, Taiwan would see a radical disruption of its lifestyle that would not all be good. I think a lot of it would be very damaging to the Taiwanese.

Eric Chou, Architect: I would have to guess that the number of Chinese and Chinese-Americans that are in support of Taiwanese independence would be a minority. My parents are not in favor of it. But they say that it's more a result of their upbringing and what they have been taught and indoctrinated to believe, and that is something that they just can't shake at this point. Other members of my parents' generation feel very much the same way. They are very adamant about Taiwan being a part of China and this one glorious Chinese Empire that needs to be reconstructed and protected. I don't know if members of my generation, second generation Chinese-Americans, are more comfortable with complexity and contradiction, but quite a few of my friends are very ready to accept a more fragmented China that isn't so monolithic.

Francisco Hsieh, Co-Chair, SF/Taipei Sister City Project: I would say that 80% of Chinese people want China and Taiwan to be united together. Actually, everybody thinks sooner or later they are going to be one country. Of course, in any kind of country, you always have the opposite side. There are some people who want independence. One day, I think that not only the government but also both people will want it to be one strong country. Actually, people living in the Bay Area, no matter where they come from, either from China or from Taiwan, are all working together. We don't really feel much difference. It's just the difference of governments. Hopefully, we'll see it in a few years. I think both of the leaders, the Taiwan President Lee Teng-hui and China President Jiang Zemin, want to unite.

Tsung-Ning Ho, Engineer: I don't think there's anybody in Taiwan who wants to be ruled by the Communist Party of China. But we feel that we are all Chinese. To declare Taiwan's independence from China is a short-sighted policy that basically says that we give up on the Chinese. If you look at the mainland China's leadership these days, moderation is getting there. I believe that in the next generation their leadership will further moderate and so democracy is possible. To abandon a billion people just to say "Hey because you are so bad right now, we're not going to be a part of you!" is a very short-sighted decision.

KQED Audience comments:

Taiwan is Taiwan, China is China. They are two different countries. Chia-Hui Chen   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:01

Well, I'll say that since U.S. was able to separate from England due to differences, Taiwan is bound to separate from China due to political and other differences. Woan Hwa Tsai   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:03

Taiwan 4 life!! ^_^   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:05

I do not see how declaring independence is giving up on the Chinese. China, as a nation, will eventually thrive. Why not let Taiwan, a different and smaller nation, be it's own? One China, and one Taiwan. I support Mr. Ho's comment is that democracy is possible. However, supporting Taiwanese independence is not mutually exclusive from supporting Chinese democracy. Robbie Romano   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:05

A superficial observation... Gathered from Tonights show and what I see in my community. It seems that mostly it is older males from Taiwan that believe Taiwanese are still more Chinese than a separate identity. While women seem to perceive that Taiwan has such split personality that should be disassociated. David Huang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:06

At school we have a Asian American Club. The majority of our members are from from Taiwan. Last year our school asked our club to do demonstrations and conduct a celebration of the Chinese New Year. With this discussion in mind, and as students that originate from Taiwan, what do we present? A Chinese New Year. But surely our origin as Taiwanese will not permit us to do a "truly" authentic Chinese presentation... David Huang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:16

Taiwan's future should be determined by the Taiwanese, not Chinese. If not for the intimidation by China, the vast majority of Taiwanese people would vote for Taiwan's independence today. Taiwan has everything to lose, and China has everything to gain, if Taiwan were to merge into China. Ching-Chao Huang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:16

It's not about gain or lose. It's about reuniting a family. Da Cheng   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:22

It is neither a family nor a reunion. It is about being merged and taken over. An analogy is: should U.K. be ruled by the U.S.? Ching-Chao Huang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:27

I think one of the sickest things about Chinese people is that we always find ways divide ourselves and fight amongst each other. I think that from the comments above (and in the documentary) it is clear that one's opinion regarding Taiwan independence is almost exclusively tied one's background: mainlander or Taiwanese. I think that mainlanders need to acknowledge that Taiwan does, indeed, have a unique native culture, and by nature of its geography and history, deserves a special place in the Chinese world order. Likewise, I think Taiwanese people should accept their Chinese ancestry and stop discriminating against those who are from the mainland, because being Taiwanese should not preclude one's Chinese identity. Only with this understanding can we work things out for the benefit of all Chinese people, independence or no independence. Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:28

"However, supporting Taiwanese independence is not mutually exclusive from supporting Chinese democracy." Robbie Romano Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:05 I agree! But, to my observation, these people in Taiwan or in USA who support Taiwan's independence do not support China's democracy. But, the reality is China's totalitarian regime under Jiang & Li will invade Taiwan, if Taiwan goes to independence. If Taiwan's pro-unification people want to negotiate with China's leaders, it will be a disaster to Taiwan because China's leaders can not be trusted. As we all see, China's leaders signed UN's Human Rights Treaty, at the same time, they are arresting all the peaceful political activitists. So, it is wasting time to discuss Taiwan's independence before we see a human and reasonable leadership in Beijing. Best wishes! Eric Lau   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:31

What a petty to see how Taiwanese get confused by its own small success. May God or Matsu, whichever you prefer, bless you all !!! Edward Tseng   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:31

It is unreasonable to place Taiwan under Chinese rule. China, being a country of over 1 billion persons and 5000 years of civilization, had been ruled by imperial rulers and communists. Due to the stifling effects of imperialism and communism, China has become a dinosaur and in turn, lacks economic or cultural vigor. Luckily and ironically, Taiwan has escaped this stranglehold and succeeded. (Taiwan was abandoned by the Chin dynasty and surrendered to Japan.) Now, Taiwan's burgeoning economy and deomcracy have brought Chinese history into a new chapter. Thus, forcing Taiwan to unite with China is no different from sacrificing vibrant young life for an aging parent. It should be up to the people of Taiwan to decide whether they wish to continue towards prosperity or shrivel in the hands of communist China. Steve Fong   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:37

I am 15 years old and live in Fremont, California and I just watched the special on Taiwan. My parents and grandparents are from Taiwan, and I moved here from Taiwan when I was two. I hadn't known all the history about Taiwan and their fight for independence. Every summer, I go and visit Taiwan, but last summer, I was there for a volunteer group, and we went to visit a veteran's home. We went there to cheer up soldiers that had come from China to Taiwan. The people there were all sad and lonely and no one ever visited them. The condition of the veterans home was also very poor. Only the generals had air conditioning and the plumbing wasn't all too great either. I could see the pain that they went through and that they were going through. Their families had been torn apart and the soldiers hadn't seen their families for more than forty years. The emotional torment they suffered must have been tremendous. In the special, there was a clip of a father and a son holding hands and crying. The father seemed almost blind, but for sure was emotionally wounded by the encounter of his son. He son could only cry, and only looked down, always shielding his eyes. Forty years is a long time. It may not be long in history, but it is a lifetime in separation. I am only 15 years old, and it has been a long life for me already. I could never imagine forty years without my parents. I would have no idea if they were okay and the children that were left behind in China probably never knew if their parents were alive. No only might have they doubted their parents existence, they probably didn't know them long enough to call them their parents. The soldiers that left China were young so their children must have been barely babies. The one girl that graduated from Berkeley compared Taiwan's fight for independence similar to the United States fight against Britain. Now that the United States has gained their, independence from Britain, the US now considers Britain much like cousins. Why can't China and Taiwan do the same? What is ironic about the United State's actions towards the China-Taiwan affair, is that the United States believes in freedom to the people, yet they favor Communist China over Democratic Taiwan because China has more to offer. There are over a billion people in China, and if every single one of them drank one can of United States Coke a day, the economical value would be egregious. Why is it that the United States only helps countries that have economical and political value to the United States? Is the US so unemotional and greedy that they are ignorant to what is right and wrong? They face the same issue with Burma, who is presently fighting for independence. People in Burma are being slaughtered every day because they protest against the government. Even soldiers are sometime unwilling to shoot the protestors because they believe in similar values. There are soldiers though, that are willing to use the weapon they have, and shoot and kill freely without second thought. The United States knows about what is happening in Burma but fail to do anything because they have nothing to gain. The only reason why the United States helped Kuwait is because most of the United State's oil comes from Kuwait. The US fails to see what they can gain by helping Taiwan. A lot of professors come from Taiwan because the schooling system is so strong in Taiwan. Taiwan's children are among the top students in the world, while the United States was almost dead last. A lot of products are made in Taiwan. Maybe not as plentiful as China, but worthwhile. Almost everyone has something in their house made in Taiwan. Many modern computer parts are made in Taiwan. The production range in Taiwan is so mixed that products from Taiwan appear in almost any kind of store. What I'm trying to say is that the United States are blind to see what Taiwan has to offer. The separation between Taiwan and China happened because of different beliefs in different governments, but the Chinese and Taiwanese feel differently about the issue. They feel like it has damaged them in some way. China recently conducted missile tests on Taiwan soil and the US sent ships to protect Taiwan because war would only make matters worse. Taiwan can't and won't retaliate and I think that that is a wise decision. Starting peaceful relations is a good first step in stopping the feud between China and Taiwan. Like Gandhi said, and eye for an eye only makes the world blind. If you have any questions or comments, please e-mail me at Chunkles64@hotmail.com Thank you for your time in reading this commentary. Charles Ho   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:42

I think both Ching-Chao and Robbie have a simplistic perception of Taiwan independence. Taiwan's future is inextricably linked to China, whether you like it or not. China will attack Taiwan if it declares independence and people will die. Do you really want Chinese people to kill each other just so you can have the satisfaction of saying "we're independent" ? Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:43

I don't agree what Ho said "Hey because you are so bad right now, we're not going to be a part of you!" That's not the issue here. Taiwan is Taiwan, China is China, they are two different countries. If China turn good, that's their business. Should American admit they are part of England just because they have the same language and culture? Owens   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:46

I am from Mainland and do not care whether Taiwan is part of China or not. I think most of the ordinary citizens in China do not care, even the leaders wish to unite ASAP. Only we the people do not want to see a war. Taiwan is actually independent from Mainland China now, and only lack of international recognition. To get that kind of recognition, Taiwanese will have to have a broad view. But, Taiwan still considers Mongolian as part of China. Taiwan does not support Tiben. Taiwan does not support China's democracy. Why should people in world care about Taiwan's future independence. Y Li   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:50

I dont know. It is not right for a wealthy people who have struggled, and attain thier levels of personal freedom and fiscal and educational benefit to lose for the benefit of the more powerful larger state. The taiwanese maintain their own monetary, govenment and defense organizations, they just "cannot" declare an independance. It is such a jealous divide. So many of the best of China and Taiwan end up going to other countries to enjoy freedom and prosperity by thier own hand. There is limited incentive to personal success in the communist governements due to the lack of profit motive and the fact that there are too many people and too few resources. Even for China to say, they have robbed our best at the end of the war, they left to escape oppression and find freedoms, very much like the religious freedom seekers who started our own country. If they cannot find it in their own country, they should have no choice but to look for nations with freedoms to escape political persecution, but then who is left to defend thier lands. When the promiseof the future cannot be found in your own country, I think it is as if you do not have a country. Taiwan must remain and other countries should stand for thier economic independance. (What would be next, the southern states of america taking political control of the North East just because there is more wealth? - it could be said to be a government for a majority of the people, but does it remain a gvernment for all the people. If prosperity is seizable by a majority just because the majority simply does not have as much money as the minority, may we compromise the rights of the minority who gainfully obtained more through hard work and gods blessing ) Jeff M   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:55

I think Y Li is confusing the official line of the KMT with what the Taiwanese people actually believe. I think that people on Taiwan do support democracy on the mainland. Just because the KMT says Tibet and Mongolia are part of China does not mean the Taiwanese people feel the same way. Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:55

On the contrary, I am quite aware of the threat China poses militarily and politically to Taiwan. Nevertheless, the Taiwanese have the right to decide for themselves what they want. The U.S. likes things right where they are because we (America) benefit from both China and Taiwan economically. If Taiwan decides to take a pro-independence stance internationally, then the U.S. government will have to recalculate it's "balance of power" formula for Asia. Probably will make concessions to China to keep them from attacking Taiwan. But China isn't stupid. They know if they take military action against Taiwan, it anger the U.S. The U.S. would intervene. Everyone has a poker face right now and insists they will do X, Y, Z. But it's much more complicated than you point out, in fact. Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 07:56

What a petty to see how america get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how iran get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how arab states get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how france get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how switzerland get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how netherlands get confused by its own small success.What a petty to see how india get confused by its own small success.- it is no small success to have a prosperous country with a strong political system, agreat heritage, culture and wealth. May the poor countries of the world learn from us, not steal,spy and threaten. God does bless them and he must or he is no god. Jeff Mills   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:00

Exactly Robbie, which is why I don't think "officially" having one China and one Taiwan is possible in this political climate. Everyone has something at stake and the only reason there is not war is because we're all trying to figure out who's bluffing. Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:02

China will become one of the strongest nation on earth in the 21st century. That is no way an exaggeration. Taiwan independence will certainly be met with decisive force, and it is getting easier and easier each day we pass by. Taiwan's economical development is more and more linked to the mainland. China's military is becoming more and more sophisticated everyday. China's military and economical power is more than sufficient to counter balance other great powers in the world who dare to intervene. What is the point of yelling and screaming? Taiwan will be reunified with the mainland China just like Hong Kong sooner or later, and you know it too! Stop dreaming and face the reality. Power is what counts! L P   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:02

Dean Chang may be right. I wish! What I was trying to say is that Taiwan needs to demonstrate its contribution to the world, in order to get others' support. I was told by my friends in China that Taiwanese do not want to unite with China, so they can have a wife in Taiwan and another wife in China. Our impression is that Taiwan supports China's democracy much much less than the United States does. Y Li   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:04

All in all, a good ducumentary on the 20th century history of Taiwan. Growing up as a native Taiwanese in the post-228 era in Taipei, I never had problems playing with other native Taiwanese kids whose parents fled Mainland in '49. In my youthful mind I only sometimes wondered why most of those mainlanders occupied all the better, larger houses in the community? While my mom constantly warned us kids not to say anything critical to the government, in fact, we were warned not to say anything at all in public, we were never ordered not to play with kids of Mainland decent. The relations between my elder brother who's 11 yrs older than I and his counterparts of Mainland decent were not as smooth. And I don't blame it on my brother or his Taiwanese friends. Because for their generation it was harder for Taiwanese to land a meaningful job with higher pay especially in government offices. My wife's cousin was born a few months after his father, who represented Tainan in 228 negotiations with KMT, was executed in front of Tainan station with all other elite locals. I don't think there's any way to ask people like the cousin or my brother to vote for a KMT candidate, without saying accepting the idea of "re-unification" with China. Therefore I would say the best way is to follow the nature's way: to let time heal the wounds. In the mean time, let both sides of the Strait continue to prosper and bring long-awaited happiness to all peoples who deserve a break from political struggles that have caused great divide and hatred. Ching Kuo, Cupertino   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:06

Dear Mr. Hsieh: Please open your eyes, your ears and especially your heart to watch, to listen and to hear what the Taiwanese people want. Dear Mr. Ho: I would hope you stop using the same tatic that PRC used to scare Taiwan during 1996 presidential election. However, if you really believe that PRC has the capability to invade Taiwan please use you training in analysis to tell us how they can do that. James Painter   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:07

I hope that Mainland China crushes the government of Taiwan because it is an evil and corrupt government. I support the complete and total return of Taiwan to China as a province. They deserve it because of all the evil that they have caused so many people. Myself included!!!!!! The end of the KMT is near!!!! Tony P.   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:10

I want to vote to declare myself independent, and make my house a new country. What do you think of this idea? Thomas   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:17

I think it is this type of misunderstanding between Chinese people on the mainland and on Taiwan that leads to bad relations. You must understand that people on Taiwan have their own impressions on what people on the mainland think. I think what people accross the straits need to do is understand each other instead of second-guessing each other. Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:23

WILL US INTERVENE? I don't think so. After-all, confront China with military force is a very dangerous act. Take a similar situation a few years in russia, when Russia fought fiercely in their broken away province. Did US intervene? No. United States is not only detered by Russian nuclear forces, but also bounded by the international law that prevent other country interfere with one's internal affairs. The same is true for China. China has limited nuclear deterrence. Taiwan is a part of China is acknowledged by most of the countries, and more importantly, the United Nation. US intervention is less and less likely as China's own military catches up. To Robbie   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:23

I have to sadly agree with LP's comments "Power is what counts! L P Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:02". Much of the discussion of Taiwan and China seems to come down to this. I feel that we should be ashamed of the fact that the Chinese have used this type of thinking to start wars and kill our own people. We Chinese should be ashamed a history filled with wars, hatred, and oppression. Perhaps it is time to finally learn from history and start thinking peace. Start thinking about how two opposing views can coexist. John Wang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:25

I agree with John. Dean Chang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:27

I have to sadly agree with LP's comments "Power is what counts! L P Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:02". John Wang That is what is believed in Beijing. In other words, to obtain independence means to get rid of the Beijing leaders - Jiang Zheming, Li Peng, ... - first. Can you do it? No way!!!!!!!! No Way!!!!!!!!! Y Li   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:30

i am 17 years old and all of this is fairly old stuff to me . i feel that most of the original taiwanese americans, like my father, are in favor of independence. one thing i have to bring up is: where was china when taiwan was a regular cruddy island? it is only because taiwan has become so powerful in the past decade that china wants to claim it. taiwan for independence!!!!!!! T. Lee   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:33

From recent election results, it seems that the majority of people in Taiwan prefer status quo. And I believe status quo is the only choice for Taiwan at this time. People who shout for 'Taiwan Independence' at this point in time are myopic in their views and in no way represent the majority of people in Taiwan. The Taiwan people only wish to enjoy the freedom and prosperity they worked so hard to achieve. All those pro-independence people are jeopardizing the safety of the 21 million inhabitants of this island. How can anyone say they love Taiwan when they are willing to put the fate of Taiwan at so much risk? How can you say you love Taiwan when the independence slogans you shout break up the unity of the people in Taiwan? I remember when I was in the army during China's missile test near Taiwan, the tension we felt. For the first time, there was a possibility for war. Should war have broken out, none of us would have really known what we were fighting for. Were we going to fight for freedom? No we already have it! Were we going to fight for Democracy? No we had that too! So what was it? Just a name 'Independent Taiwan'? Is the name so important that we are willing to risk the sovereignty we have always enjoyed? Some of the quotes in tonight's program really made me upset. Where will the pro-independence people be when China attacks Taiwan for declaring independence. Where were those people during the missile test, when I had to run around in a state of full battle readiness? Where were they when we started to stockpile the armory with ammunition? If you really care for the people of Taiwan like you say you do, stop provoking China. Do what is best for Taiwan, and be patient. China is changing, and so is Taiwan. Alan Du   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 08:52

I agree with what Alan Du said is the best way to preserve what we've achieved in Taiwan. I hate the influence of politics in our daily lives and yet I live in it everyday. Most people, Taiwanese and Mainlanders in Taiwan alike, don't want war to break out with China, and yet the political future of Taiwan is strongly influenced by China. That's just political reality. I talked to my folks and friends in Taiwan very often and understand that people mostly chose status quo in order to prevent war from happening. That may be why Mr. Ma received lots of Taiwanese votes in Taipei mayoral election. What I feel sad about choosing status quo is it's not really a choice or is it? Poor Taiwanese! We can't even choose our own future. I feel sorry for my Mainlander friends and classmates, too. They are in every way native Taiwanese, and yet in political realism they don't belong to either China or Taiwan. Why can't we call each other simply "human beings" and live happily ever after? Why are our fates controled by small groups of politicians in opposite sides of the narrow Strait? Ching Kuo, Cupertino   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 09:17

It is interesting that Tsung-Ning Ho, the Engineer, declared that "we feel that we are all Chinese" when so many people clearly pointed out in Tug of War and Taiwan: A View from Here that they "don't" feel "Chinese." Mark Lindsay, with many Taiwanese-American friends   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 10:17

"Self-determination"--is that too much to ask for? Human rights activist   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 10:21

Its people like "LP" and "John" who believe that might makes right that are the real problem in this whole situation. Hitler believed that might made right also. I'm damn glad my grandfather and the U.S. Army went to Germany to kick his ass. Many Chinese seem to embrace a fascist ideology which decrees that Chinese are a superior race and will get whats rightfully theirs in the 21st century. This is a very dangerous thing. Roger Chen   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 10:31

If there is a chance for Taiwanese to vote for their future without military threats, I believe 80% more of Taiwanese people will vote for Taiwan's de jure independence. The history of Taiwan has taught Taiwanese people that no alien rulers of Taiwan had ever taken good care of Taiwanese interests but destroied Taiwanese languages and cultures, and treated Taiwanese people as second-class citizens. The chinese KMT regime was bad on demolishing anything "Taiwanese". The other chinese regime in Beijiing has even worse records on human rights and culture deconstruction. How do Taiwanese people feel these Chinese are trustable? Taiwanese have their very own right on self-determination. No matter what Taiwanese will determine their future, that's Taiwanese business and has nothing to do with China. Taiwan belongs to Taiwanese. Taiwanese student in Stanford University Alex chih-lung Chou   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 11:38

I don't understand how anyone can look at the Taiwan issue by leaving out the military threat of China. If all our problems can be solved by declaration of independence, by all means do it. But at this stage and time, it is not an option. I strongly believe China will use force if provoked, and I think so does the United States. Why else would they send their aircraft carriers to the Taiwan Strait. Why is it that so many of these 'Taiwanese' constantly make everyone in Taiwan seen like a down trodden, poor and tortured people? Are we really that badly off? Are the deprived citizens of Taiwan still under the control of the tyranny of the KMT? Where is the pride of the people of Taiwan? Are we only capable of complaining about how badly we have been mistreated? Do you want to continue to be that little boy sulking on the floor and stomping his feet, blaming everything on everyone? There is nothing you can do about the past, other than to learn from it. Our answer lies in the present and in the future. So, stop your finger pointing, I will respect you more for it. By the way, the only true Taiwanese are the aborigines and we won't go into how they were treated by the 'Taiwanese' you call yourself. How appropriate to forget. Alan Du   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 14:02

There're a few Communist sympathizers stating that Mainland gonna give Taiwan "a lessen" very soon. I just want to point out that those Chinese communists had done just that back in 70's to Vietnamese. However, it was then the brave Vietnamese who put up a good fight and gave Chinese a good lessen that they'd never forget. How about the lessen that Chinese had promissed to Philipino over the territory dispute in south China Sea? Look back the history, the mighty Mongol had tried to give Japanese a good lessen, but ended up being wiped out by "KAMIKAZE" - the God's Wind, not once but twice. Where was the "lessen"? Could this be God's way of letting goodness triumgh over evil? Just a suggestion to those communists, evaluate your strategy before you make the next move on Taiwan. As if US naval force were not enough for you, you now just enlisted Japanese Imperial Navy as your enemy as the result of US/Japan Defense Treaty. Surely, Taiwaness would be naive, or even foolish, to assume US/Japan forces will come to their aid in the time of need. But the question is you Chinese can not rule that out either, can you? And by the way, let me tell you the reason that Japan were drawn into this mess is directly resulted from the "lessen" that you Chinese fired Missiles during Taiwanese presidential election in 1996 which prompted the revision of the US/Japan Defense Treaty. Last, but not the least, Taiwaness has been known for good at taking "lessens" historically. Courageous as they are, certainly know how to beef up their security to ward off the greedy neighbor. I'm sure that Taiwaness and all peace loving free world are anxiously waiting the lessen you've constantly promissed. Just show us your true color of a collapsed civilization. Hwanger   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 16:59

Taiwan is a Taiwan and China is China. Taiwan's fate should be decided by the people who live in Taiwan whoever they are Taiwanese or mainlanders, not by any countried or in any forms. After 1989 massacre, I feel there is no hope and no future for Taiwan to be reunited with China. Even Communist Russia can be resolved into a democratic country. Let's have a hope that Taiwan can be independent and prosper and the people who live in Taiwan can live peacefully. I believe that's what they wish. C. S.   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:05

I really hate all this political retoric. This government, that government. They did this, we should do that. Independence, unity, WAR... It's no wonder my grandfater wanted his grandchildren here in the United States. He wanted us free from all this BS. China wants reunification, Taiwan wants independence, KMT wants this, USA wants that. Cant you see that taking part in this type of retoric, you are perpetuating hate. Cant you see that taking sides here means supporting this crap? Please open your eyes. Please open your minds. Why is peace and the search for peace always missing from these type of discussions? Is mankind really so evil? John Wang   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:10

I used to read a Chinese history book in which it claimed not only Taiwan but also Okinawa, all south China sea are rightfully theirs. In fact, they even claim Mogolia, Tibet. Don't worry, they haven't claim America as yet,although some say that American Indians are from Asia (China) . My point is how true was their history. This is a group of people asking Japaness apology on one hand, slaughtering its own people and denying it all on the other. They'll write anything without any credential. By the way, if you dare to tell any Okinawan that he/she is originally a Chinese and not Japanese, he/she will take that as a grave insult. In time, Taiwan will be a country with its own unique culture and ideology. Let's take a stand like other courageous people. Hwanger   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:42

I come from China and have never been to the island of Taiwan. After viewing the program, I felt strongly appreciation about the hard-working people of Taiwan and the effort they fight for democracy. On the other hand, I felt the program's view is biased since all the opioions come from the people from Taiwan, not a single view from people from mainland. My opinion is: If Taiwan delcared independence, the problem would not in the Taiwan Strai, but rather inside China: Tibet, Inner Mongolia, the vast western part of China would also go independent.... and China would be no more. After the former Yugoslavia, you don't need too much imagination to view the picture. Y Liu   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 18:59

Nationalism is always created by a totalitarian government to justify its own oppresive conducts against the demand of change from people. Look at the history of Taiwan and what happens in China, it is not hard to understand why Taiwanese people are sick and tired of the idea of "reunification"--in the name of "National identity, blood tie, or long lost family" over and over again. Growing up in Taiwan in the 70s, I was once brainwashed to believe that China was my motherland, and we had to fight a "holy" war to liberate people in China. We were taught to think about "what you can do for the country" as a child. All the Taiwanese kids in school wrote cliche about" fighting back to China to liberate Chinese, so we wil live a happy life" in the end of their articles or daily journals. If you had a second thought about the logic and reasons for this holy war, you were seen as a communist spy or a pro-indpdendent evil person. What a terrible way of killing a child's imagination. After I came to the US to study, I lived with my "Chinese" roommates. We found out how similar KMT and Communist are--creating rhetoric of reunification and fear of people from the other side of the Taiwan Strait. Creating ideas of "war and killing" in order to fulfill its own fantasy of ruling other's land. My Chinese roommate and I joked about how their government told them about Taiwanese people as lost children with no mother--no surprise at all. My KMT government told me the same thing about the Chinese that were lost under the Communist rule. We sang political songs to each other and end up laughing out loud about the familiar themes of hostility, insecurity, and narcissism in those songs. Too bad we spent so much energy and time worrying about each other not being "good" and "loyal" enough to each other's government. I am happy and proud of being Taiwanese today. Looking back at the democratic movement in Taiwan, I realize that this tiny island has tremendous amount of energy and creativity. The feminist, loabor, student, and environmetalist movements...etc. have made the island country a wonderful place to freely express opinions and thoughts. The international political isolation makes Taiwanese more flexible than ever. They are everywhere on earth looking for opportunities of businesses, learning, or simply for cultural or fun experiences. The people in Taiwan are well educated, brave, and flexible. I think Taiwan does not need to concern about losing its old "Chinese" identity at all-- because Taiwan is changing constantly in its society and politics, and that is enough for a country to deal with. I hope in China, the diverse force coming from every corner of the society that pushes the country to move forward will happen sooner. I don't care about reunification or independence. I care more about equal rights and free expression for human beings. Katherine Lee   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 20:06

I watched the show a few minutes later, so I may have missed something. But based on what I have watched, I feel some aspects of history need to set correct. The show did not mention the Sino-Japanese war in 1896. In fact, it was that war that forced China to give up Korea (a former protectorate) and Taiwan (part of Fu-Kian province during the Manchu dynasty), and Japan began the half-century long colonization of both Korea and Taiwan. However, unlike the Koreans who 'hate' the Japanese to death beacause of that colonization, most Taiwanese seem to feel quite 'good' about the Japanese. I hope this has nothing to do with the inherent 'weakness' of the ethnic Chinese, or rahter, the ethinic Taiwanese as a whole. Anyway, the show gives the audience a feeling that the Japanese were in Taiwan first, then the mainland Chinese came in later. I hope this is not the true intention of the show. Otherwise, some Taiwanese may even think the Japanese invented the Kanji (the Chinese characters used by Japanese). I want to offer some advices on the various Taiwanese who are divided on the issue of unification vs. independence. 1. To those who favor unification: Good, stick to your belief. The 21st century belongs to the Chinese. Let's rebuild China into a leading civilization in the world as it had been for thousands of years. Let's reclaim our lost territory in Mongolia and much of east Siberia. Let the sleeping giant wake up. Let us, the Chinese, make louder voice in the world. 2. To those who are undecided: If you genuinly believe Taiwan has better political system and should serve as a model for the future China, then work on it. Let the small one take control of the big one. Don't be intimidated by the sheer size of mainland China. Don't be misled by the propaganda against communism. The Chinese are always pragmatic people. As the middle class emerges in China, the communism will automatically fade away. Don't sit there and wait to be swallowed in by the Mainland. Try to swallow in the mainland, economically, cuturally and politically. Look the reunion of east and west Germany. That's a good example to follow. But do not follow the steps of Yogoslavia. 3. To those who are pro-indepence: I think most mainland Chinese won't be object to this idea if the following requirements are met: A. Return all the gold and national treasures that were originally brough from mainland back to the mainland. B. Stop using China or Chinese as trade marks or logos for any Taiwanese corporations and businesses (such as China airline). C. Stop using the Chinese language. Do what the Koreans did over 100 years. Twist the Chinese language a little bit, and invent a new language and call it Taiwanese. D. If you happen to own a restaurant in US, stop using the name "Chinese Food". Call it "Taiwanese Food". E. Change your names. Do not let your name sound like Chinese. Make them sound like Japanese, if you feel Japanese are better. Instead of Mr. or Ms. Lin or Chen, identify yourself as Kawakasi or Yogasaki. Stop teaching yor kids about anything related to Chinese. This will definitely drive most mainland Chinese crazy and they will soon forget about Taiwan if Taiwan looks so 'foreign'. Renshou Dai renshou@sageinst.com Renshou Dai   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 20:19

Nobody can deny the fact that the civil between CCP and KMD broke out in the yeat of 1946, as i know, the war never ends up. For the sake of the people who live on the island of Taiwan, we stopped attacking. But if one day, any none-Chinese want to occupy the island, our weapon will speak out our last words. I will not hesitate to go back to join the PLA, to fight, for the right of Chinese. I am ready to give my life away. Thomas   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 20:59

To Thomas who is ready to give life away: I am not sure why you would pledge to die for a war that seems impossible to happen. I am interested in finding out how we were taught as little kids to hold on to certain fixed identities. It seems to me you care so much about being "Chinese". Does the word "Chinese" mean anything to you? A sense of pride, or deep feelings of lost? YKL   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 21:19

I am happy yet surprised to see so many people who share their opinions and concerns after watching KQED's special program--Taiwan, Tug of War. However, I found the documentary evokes complex feelings and emotion rather than clarifying them. I would like to respond to those whom only got hostel toward Taiwanese people, or simply the term-- "Taiwanese", after watching last night's program. First of all, I have to admit that it is time of uncertainty. The Taiwanese, if I may, is striving for finding out how to be a proud Taiwanese and also be responsible for the safety of their loved ones on the Island. Responsible Taiwanese want to be "idependent" Taiwanese who are capable of caring and loving our neighbors. We don't want to become rich and arrogant Taiwanese isiolating ourselves form the outside world. There are many religious, charitable, and civil organization in Taiwan contributing their money and efforts to help the needed countries. Among those countries, China is definately the biggist beneficiary. Everytime there was a flood, earthquack, or starving in China, the Taiwan Red Cross, Chi-Zhi, and many others organizations gathered their helps from people all over in Taiwan. We sent food, medicine, and clothes to China for those victims suffering from natural disater. At the same time, many schools have been built by Taiwanese fund in places that the Chinese government is not able to take care of. Who else can be a better neighbor? But how did the Chinese respond to our hospitality? Threatening, isolating Taiwan from internation stage, ruining every efforts we made , and worst of all, educationg their youth with hostility toward anyone who dares to claim him/herself a Taiwanese. It is like you try so hard to be friendly to your nextdoor neighbor by helping them out in many ways but the neighbor, surprisingly, not only unthankful but also teach their children to hate you and even kill you if you dare to declare you are who you are! What kind of mentality is that? Taiwanese is not a polically created terminology. It is already a reality. People today in Taiwan are governing themselves by the people chosen from democratic elections. Taiwan is alredy an "idependent" nation because we can be responsible for the road we have taken. As I said in the beginning, it is time of uncertainty. The Taiwanese is trying to find the best way to define themselves among other countries in the world; the Chinese, afraid of Taiwan finds out her identity. Only well-faith communication and patience can remove the clouds above the Taiwan Strait. Any one who attempts to use military resolution is just simple-minded. Alan Chou   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 23:44

To EDs, re comment to TLee - Who looks stupid, a 17 yr old who is expressing hisview and conditioning it that he has limited personal recollection, or someone who madeno point but to argue anothers. What did you participate in when you were 17? I think thefatc that his father grew up to this and has the family input of having lived through thistime is enough to have galvanized a very valid opinion. I may agree it reads alittle huhrah, but old politicians with dreams long lost dream for the innocence of a younger heartto express what they have suffered for so long. How many of Taiwans old men have lostthe will to dream, for what they wished for thier children and grandchildren. For furhter updateof the taiwanese traditions (I am american and learnedthrough friends) - the parents work veryhard and often are fairly frugal and not given to excess. In taiwan, it is very common for them to save for and purchase the first house for thier children, let alone a car and college. We as americans Jeff Mills   Tuesday, Dec. 15 1998 at 23:50

When Quebec had its referendum to decide its future, you didn't hear English Canada saying "we will use military force to annex you". It just shows the great difference in respecting human rights between Canada and China. TI   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 01:22

"21th Century would be Chinese century" so they claimed repetitively. What a coincidence that exactly one century ago those Chinese Boxers shouting the similar slogan: "20th Century is Chinese century". Well, 20th century never was theirs. I've never heard any modern civilized countries making such an offending claim. And Quite frankly, I just don't see that a race without the courage and consicence to overthrow COMMUNISTs dominance can fulfill such a claim. Germany, Polish.. even Russian have all proven Communism is the greatest evil in 20th century. Why not Chinese? With all due respect, I suggest them review the psychology of a defeated nation. Hwanger   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 01:33

Hwanger is right that " I just don't see that a race without the courage and consicence to overthrow COMMUNISTs dominance can fulfill such a claim." I am glad that at least "Taiwanese Chinese" are NOT ruled by communists. At least, in Taiwan, people can elect their leaders as most other human beings do in this world excluding Mainland China. Eric Lau   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 02:00

Yes, if the 1.4 BILLION mainland Chinese are still controlled by communists, it is wasting time to "discuss" anything. M Liu   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 02:13

Not wanting to rule by the Communist Party is a different issues than not wanting to be part of China. You can be part of China and against the CCP government at the same time. I don't see a conflict. What the real conflict is that a minority group(Taiwan) within the Chinese nation wants to go through with the so called 'independence' without the consent from the majority of the Chinese people. Even if the Communists are thrown out of the office today and China is democratic, the people of China still will not let a piece of Chinese land to get seperated without the democratic consent from all Chinese nationals! Mr. Nick P   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 02:40

I am from Mainland China. If China becomes democratic and holds a national vote for Taiwan's future, I and many of my friends will vote to allow Taiwan's independence. Hong Kong is part of China now. We, ordinary people, know that high level officials benefitted a lot from it. What do we gain? Nothing!! Ordinary people in China still can not travel to Hong Kong freely. On every 6.30, local governments will celebrate. And you know whose money they are spending. When Hong Kong's stock market goes up, nothing happens. When the Hong Kong's stock market goes down, the central government will take money to "save the market". And, the money comes from ordinary people's saving accounts. Inside Mainland China, Hong Kong residence are still treated better than Mainlanders. They get more protection and still enjoy previliges in doing business in Mainland China. In other words, we the ordinary Chinese become a secondary citizens after Hong Kong comes back. If Taiwan is back to China, we will become third kind of citizens. So, I will vote for Taiwan's independence. Y Wang   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 03:05

So, who really wants a unification with Taiwan - the "leaders" in Beijing and their children living in the United States. John Chen   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 06:23

Please face the truth that now Taiwan and China are ruled by seperated, independent governments. Sure Taiwan should gain more recognition from other countries, if only China can stop persecution. Without the missile threaten, I believe Taiwaness has already declared independence long ago. Let's make peace with each other, and don't let the blind, narrow-mined nationism convinced you that union will lead to the so called 'great country'. Think about how China treats the neighbor countries now. They even declare the whole South China Sea belongs to China. (reference source: National Geographic, December, 1998.) J.S.   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 08:59

Since 1840's Opion War, the Chinese had been humiliated and treated unequally by the western powers and her neighbor--Japan. And Chinese had lost every single war against the barbarians ever since. Taiwan or Formosa was forced to cede to Japan as a result of losing the war of protecting Korea from the rape of Japan. At that time the campaign of Taiwan independence was not heard of. Elite Taiwanese at that time were 100% Chinese patriots, unlike the present ignorant, narrow-minded Taiwanese intellects--most of them are cowards. We, Chinese, are a peace-loving people. But due to imperialism, we have to fight. The following is what Dr. Sun Ya-sen once said, "For forty years I've devoted myself to the cause of the people's revolution with but one end in view--the elevation of China to a position of freedom and equality among the nations. My experiences have firmly convinced me that to attain this goal we must ally ourselves with the people of the world..." You see, the key words are "the elevation of China to a position of freedom and equality among the nations...we must ally ourselves..." Today I am glad to tell Dr. Sun that we've achieved some of his goals, at least, no other country in the world dare to invade an inch of the Chinese territory. We are waking up and we will get stronger and richer. We are able to feed ourselves, no more starvation. Chinese are no longer underdogs. So why in the world are there still some Chinese in Taiwan, a minority of them, wanting to separate from China? They should be excited to see a strong China. We have achieved something our grandpas and our great grandpas were trying to achieve but not so successful. So, please give up independence and unify with your motherland. --A New Communist in Taiwan Pan Chan   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 09:01

Taiwanese do not need anyone's permission to determine their own fate. Let Taiwanese people decide for themselves. John   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 10:05

Please do not lie... particularly in terms of where you are from... Lies would not help you and here in discussion thanks JS   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 16:07

I don't think Francisco Hsieh [Co-Chair ...] can speak for 80% of Chinese people that they want China and Taiwan to be united. Just because "we [people living in the Bay Area] don't feel much difference," it doesn't mean that Taiwan should not be independent. It's good for people to work together but we all have our identity. I disagree with Tsung-Ning Ho [Engineer]; to declare Taiwan's independence from China isn't short-sighted nor is it to say that "we give up on the Chinese." Was it short- sighted for U.S. to declare independence from Great Britain ? Did we give up on the English ? Just because democracy is possible for the future China doesn't mean that Taiwan should be rule by China. If both China and Taiwan want to unify, so be it. If Taiwan wants independence, China shouldn't be a big bully. jp from the Bay Area   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 16:54

I really feel that "tug of war" is a much better documentary than "gate of heavenly peace"(1989 pro-democracy movement) in terms of political unbiasness and the way of presenting the fact. My personal belief is that: time is the best solution for the taiwan/mainland problem. Let's suppose that taiwanese is going to vote for independence versus becoming the 51st state of the unite states. My guess is that the outcome would not be an extreme of 80/20 if they were to vote for independence versus unification with mainland today. Why? Because what counts is interest: personal interest, and national interest. In chinese culture, there are just too few people would be willing to give up their life for their belief. Today, mainland is lagging far behind taiwan in GDP PER CAPITAL, also in education and the progression toward democracy. That is why most taiwanese are concerned because they would worry about the wealth distribution if they are to unite with china. However, if you look at the growth rates in GDP PER CAPITA of china and taiwan, the curve will intersect some 40 years from now. And the mainland has 50:1 ratio in population over taiwan. And when the day comes, I believe that less people are going to vote for independence over unification. Why independence now? Whose interest is in sacrifice? Taiwanese people!!! And of course, the politicians are the ones who got away laughing. Why not just let it be? Let the time ease the gap, the idealogical conflict. Even Americans learn to COEXIST with the value of first generation chinese leadership in the 70's. Peter Lee   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 18:12

While I do not support the independence movement in Taiwasn, given the current status of the regime in mainland China, I certainly believe maintaining status quo for the foreseeable future is probably the best course. As regard to the "2-28 incident", I do want to point out that, 1. While the KMT troop must have killed many people, the figure of 20,000 or 30,000 is not well documented, to say the least. 2. The so-called "white terror" was brought down not only on the Taiwanese in Taiwan but almost all the Chinese in mainland (while the KMT ruled there), and was an act by the warlord Chiang Kai-Shek after he took over the party, and not an act of terror brought to the Taiwanese by mainlanders. It is too bad that not too many Taiwanese see that. One needs to separate the actions by some gangs in a political parties are not by those from other ethnic groups 3. Finally, no one, whether Taiwanese of mainlanders, should deny that during the "2-28 incident", many mainlanders were killed by the Taiwanese for no other reason that they were from the mainland. A favorite trick used was to speak to a stranger in Taiwanese and if he or she could not respond, he or she would be beaten or killed. Later on, when it was realized that the Fukanese from the mainland spoke the same dialect, the Taiwanese would switch to Japanese. In fact, at least on female school teacher from mainland China was ganged raped and then killed. At the same time, some Taiwanese also stepped up and protected other mainlanders. My point here is that during the incident, one finds atrocity as well as fairness by both sides. If the Taiwanese must blame someone, the blame should go to the great warlord Chiang Kai-Shek and his son, Ching -Kuo, not the Chinese from the mainland who suffered no less under Chiang. Steve Chan   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 18:49

QUOTE BEGIN------------------------------------------------- Let me challenge you guys with a simple question: will you go home (Taiwan) to fight for her if there is a war between Taiwan and China? The answer for myself is YES though the chance to win is ZERO. I love her so much that I will die for her. Please remember that this is not a war of cultural conflicts, nor racial conflicts. It is a war of ideological conflicts. If you are afraid of dying in the war, you better stop bull ****ing here! Too much bull **** already! QUOTE END--------------------------------------------------- Quote from a politcally neutral taiwanese mailing list   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 18:55

I like this documentary film, because it covers a wide range of views of Taiwanese people. I HOPE someone can do a similar film to discover how ordinary Mainland Chinese think about this issue. I am not quite sure how many of them will agree with me, but do wish someone can go there to find out. I am sure the reality is not the same as the Beijing government claims. Especially, how many Mainland Chinese are willing to sacrify their life to attack Taiwan. I guess not many. Everyone knows Chinese communist government is a totally corrupted system. Many government officials steal money and send their kids to live in the U. S. I am a nobody without any connection in China. I am living on my hard earned computer skills, and still need to send money back home to help my brothers who were laid off. Again, I just wish someone to do a documentary film in China. Hopefully, ordinary mainland Chinese's view can be represented, not only these of "elite". Y. Wang   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 19:13

To those who seek Taiwan independence: go ahead and do it! But please find some other island, such as Okinawa. Formosa belongs to the Chinese people. If you Taiwanese do not recognize yourself as Chinese, then please move out the Chinese property. You've illegally occupied the Chinese territory for many years. And it's time for the Chinese people to take back their possession. We will teach you a harsh lesson SOON!!! --New Communist in Taiwan Pan Chan   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 20:24

I do not want to see a war. I think every reasonable person should agree that the Taiwan issue MUST be resolved peacefully. In China, the Communist Party has about 3-5 millions members who might be for a war. But, ordinary people do not. Y Wang   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 20:48

To Pan Chan: Hawaiians and Californians are Americans ... like Cantonese and Fukanese are Chinese. You can't compare California/U.S. with Taiwan/China. Wanting independence from China has nothing to do with wanting to be Japanese. Learn to forgive and respect others' identity. China gave Taiwan up long ago. anonymous   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 23:08

The issue is simple: Taiwan is a part of the Chinese nation(not PRC), and therefore Taiwan's fate should be decided by the Chinese people(ML+TW). If you are against this, then you are against basic democracy! You can't argue that for the sake of democracy Taiwan independence should be allowed without the consent from the rest of the Chinese people, after all it is all Chinese nationals that are the true masters of their land - the Chinese nation, which includes Taiwam. KMT Blue-Shirt   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 23:25

This film about Taiwan was totally biased! It focued way too much on TIers' prespectives. The recent elections in Taiwan clearly have demonstrated that the people of Taiwan have rejected DPP's TI platform. This film have painted an extreme negative image of the Chinese KMT, if KMT is really all that bad, now how come people elected the KMT as the majority party in Taiwan today? TIers today, continue to use the 228 incident to spread hatred between BSR and WSR. This dirty plot by the DPP have proven to be unsuccessful in the last Taiwan election. KMT Blue-Shirt   Wednesday, Dec. 16 1998 at 23:32

Watch out for this "RED GUARD IN BLUE SHIRT". He is such an champion for democracy and more than willing to share the future of Taiwan with his beloved comrades. Well, democracy has its principle, no matter how inclusive it is. No free nations will allow foreign citizens to participate its democratic process. This principle alone will exclude all manland Chinese from TAIWAN's sovereign affair. Secondly, most law-abiding nations will not allow hardcore criminals or serial murders participating in public affairs. This principle will rule out all Chinese communists and their collaborators from any decision making about TAIWAN. I feel that a nation overrun by a group of thugs on a system ditched by most decent countries in the world have a decency to respect other people's will. Hwanger   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 01:12

To KMT Blue-Shirt: Don't just read an election result this year and make a simplified conclusion. I think the changing nature of Taiwanese politics is deeply connected with the ethnic conflicts and historical tragedy. Let's wait and see the next election result. Of course people can attach whatever meaning they want to after each campaign. YK   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 01:13

You are right about that. You can see who is the sponse. Chang Rng-far, Fomasa plastic company..etc. The film also do not mention WSR had been killed in 228. Local BSR set up a check-up pointer to check whoever can not speak taiwanese and killed. "TIer" have to use 228 to get the benefit of it. One thing "TIer" does not know is if China attack taiwan. then everyday is 228 to all taiwan people. To KMT Blue-Shirt   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 01:18

It seems to me the "Taiwan Independence" issue is a POLITICAL ISSUE which can be manipulated by KMT, DDP, CCP in many many ways to benefit them. Again, I just wish this important issue CAN be resolved peacefully. If a war is really necessary, let the CCP members fight with DDP and KMT. Please leave the ordinary Mainland Chinese alone. Please!!! They had enough! ........... Millions of them were killed during the civil war between CCP and KMT. Y Wang   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 01:50

I have been to American for almost 2 years. I like Anerican but I love Taiwan. Taiwan is my country my home and also my root. My country educate me, and teach me who to become a good and polite person. Maybe you would ask me "Why you come here?". My answer is very simple which is I want to explore different experience in my lifetime. So that's the reason for I come to here. Chia-Wen Huang   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 03:02

I'd like to address one more issue. Taiwanese culture today is not the fusion of some Dutch/Japanese/Western/Chinese culture in equal proportions. It is primarily Chinese culture, but with a more modern interpretation. People speak Chinese, read Chinese, eat Chinese food primarily, practice Chinese customs and have far more in common with Chinese across the strait than with any foreign nation. Some Taiwanese here will say, "I have little in common with Mainlanders, and can't get along with them". Well, if that's the case, this person must find it quite difficult to relate to anybody in American society, where most people are far more different. City Racer   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 03:15

Some TIers called me 'Red Guard in Blue Shirt'. Yet at the same time, they talk about democracy this and democracy that. They don't even understand the basic principle of democracy is to allow opposition voices, yet they like to label me this and that. Trying to push my voices aside as if I have no rights to speak and comment regarding Taiwan. These TIers do not want democracy, they want a TI dictatorship on Taiwan, and perhaps racism against all WSR! KMT Blue-Shirt   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:13

I agree with LP's comment. I truly believe TIers are very unrealistic people! TI is a dead end road. Reunification with the Chinese nation in the long run is a win-win situation for all, especially for Taiwan. May economists have already predicted Mainland to become a world economic power house in the coming Century, it is only a matter of time before political reforms will take place in Mainland, recently there have been signs of greater political freedom and democracy. Mainland is following the same path as Taiwan, economic first, then democracy. The CCP today is similar to the Chinese KMT in the 70s, the CCP too will go through reform in order to adjust to the needs of the modern economy, which requires the rule of law. The people of Taiwan instead of making insulting remarks(like those two stupid girl from Berkeley) towards China and even Chinese culture. They should really open their eyes to see the light! Kevin Chang   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:35

It makes no sense to compare China with Russia. First, when Russia and China began economical reform, Russia has been ruled by communists for more than 70 years AND China has only been ruled for more than 30 years. In other words, anyone with any idea of capitalism has been dead. But, in China, old folks still have some idea of capitalism. And, most importantly, ethnic Chinese in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, US, etc. invested huge amount of money in China. Unfortunately, Russia does not have such an advantage. ....... If China got Taiwan and Hong Kong back in 1949, if China got every Chinese in USA and in Southeast Asia back home in 1949, today's China will look exactly like Russia. M Liu   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 04:46

To KMT Blue-Shirt again: You have doubt about self-dertermination? Aren't you a loyal KMT Blue-Shirt? Don't you think KMT "rule" Taiwan outside of Communist control for so many year a great thing? So, now people in Taiwan can finally look at the path of the history and declaire their sense of country. A note on the comparison to the American civil war: The southern states, unlike Taiwan, had always been a part of the union, and when they seceded from the union, Abraham Lincoln did not allow the Confederate States of America to rule themselves for fifty years as Taiwan has ruled itself. The reality is that Taiwan has its own government and has determined its own separate economic and political system. self-determination for women and a nation   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:11

TO self-determination woman. well.. so is hongkong. LP   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:14

My point is: an independent Taiwan actually helped China more than if the Taiwan was taken back in 1949. If KMT and DDP are better than CCP, why should we allow CCP to take over taiwan? M Liu   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:22

Chinese Aggression against the Taiwanese ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way, most Chinese from Asia directly or indirectly support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, in order to seize the island. The Chinese believe that nationalism in the name of race is more important than human rights or human life. When Jiang Zemin visited Japan last month,the supposed Chinese "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy" organizations strongly condemned Jiang for not getting a written apology from Japan. However, when Jiang again threatened to invade Taiwan, killing its women and children, the Chinese were silent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In March 1996, when the Chinese threw missiles at Taiwan, only the Taiwanese demonstrated against the barbarism. The Chinese in California (and elsewhere) either were silent or were supporting the Chinese attack on Taiwan. Several Chinese were interviewed at local Silicon Valley companies, and they are recorded in the local San Jose newspaper as (1) supporting the barbarism and (2) demanding that American warships get out of the Taiwan area in order to allow the Chinese take back "their island" so that it can re-join "the Chinese motherland". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you question what I say, I strongly urge you to prove me wrong. I want you to prove me wrong. Please find 3 articles (in any reputable Western source) reporting how the Chinese in supposed "human-rights" organizations or "pro-democracy" organizations condemned the March 1996 missile attack. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadly, you will not be able to find such articles. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I really wish that Western news organizations would stop assuming that simply because a Chinese-dominated organization claims to be "pro-human-rights" or "pro-democracy", that said organization necessarily condemns invading Taiwan. On the contrary, most Chinese in general and most Chinese in such organizations support invading Taiwan. For the Chinese, racist nationalism is more important than human rights. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The concept of right and wrong held by the Chinese is fundamentally different from the concept of right and wrong held by us in the West and Japan. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:25

Good Information about Taiwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below are some WWW links pointing at more information about Taiwan. Specifically. The first HTML link points directly to a chapter (of a book) that expands on the PBS program. That chapter explains how the Chinese barbarically abused the Taiwanese. The chapter has the exact same photo (of Lin Yi-hsiung's family) that the program "Tug of War: the Story of Taiwan" displayed. The photo shows the mother and twin baby girls who were murdered by Chinese agents of the KMT. I cried when I heard Lin Yi-hsiung tell about his shock at hearing about the deaths. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.leksu.com/leksu-e.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.leksu.com/mainp10e.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.taiwandc.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.taiwanese.com/~bst ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:34

Dear LP: Just because Hong Kong does not have self-determination, that does not mean the Chinese takeover is right. Many people in Hong Kong have mixed feelings about "going back" to China. They realized that they were just a chess piece in the international power arena. Whereas they have been under the British flag for decades, Taiwan has enjoyed self-rule without any imperialist agreements hanging over its head. self-determination for women and a nation   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:35

Taiwan is no Hong Kong. Hong Kong was governed by British people, not by Hong Kong people. China and British had a treaty which specified 1997 to turn back. This is a basic fact anyone knows. M Liu   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:47

Dear self-determination for Women and a Nation: I wasn't suprised at all by the harsh remarks of those hardcore Chinese made in this ideological discusssion. You might have underestimated those products of a society that Mr. Bor Yung (the Chinese dissident in the document) characterized as "stop-flowing, rotten civilization". It's that kind of ideology and behavior that would someday endager the world peace. President Reagan used to call USSR an 'EVIL EMPIRE'. Contrasted with China, I'd say mr. Reagan had seen nothing yet. They Chinese often say that they're a pile of loose sand. I think they know each other too well to respect each other just like those gang members to each other in a GANG. Hwanger   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 05:48

To Hwanger: Interesting remarks. From a feminist point of view, the discourse of nationalism has been way too patriarchal and single-minded. It's unnecessarily confrontational. I would like to see a more diverse and creative, yet down-to-earth discussion on how a group of people come to define themselves and where the group is heading. Good night and God bless. self-determination for women and a nation   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 06:11

So Hongkong people weren't given't a chance to choose, taiwan's people won't have self-determination either. If that was allowed, i suspect China would have already become many many many pieces after Mao died. IF separation, self-determination is allowed, the province of canton would have separated from the rest of the country too. Canton was much prosperous than the rest of China. They once tried not to pay taxes to the central government and help out the poor people in the rest of country especially in the inland areas. Don't think you have a self-determination right. You have the right to choose what you want to do in life, but once you were born, you are Chinese, and you have no right to change that fact. Taiwan is a part of China, and that is not up to the people of taiwan to choose. Taiwan will not be allowed to become independent, and therefore won't become independent, and China has its military to back up that statement. If you want independent, better keep your military on par with the mainland, which is impossible in the long run. LP   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 06:21

Native Taiwanese are Very Different from Hong Kongers --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect "self-determination for women and a nation", but I must note that most Hong Kongers really did want to be ruled under Beijing. The Hong Kongers had at least 10 long years in which to think about their fate. The dangers of rule under Beijing were already well-known long before 1997. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yet, within the entire 10 long years (and more), no group in Hong Kong even suggested the idea of independence as the Republic of Hong Kong. These Hong Kongers wanted to be ruled by Beijing. If you disagree with me, I challenge you to find 3 articles (from reputable Western sources) reporting that some group -- any group -- in Hong Kong even hinted at the idea of independence. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No Hong Konger even suggested the idea. By 1997, polls showed that 50% of Hong Kongers enthusiastically supported returning to rule under Beijing and that an additional 27% of Hong Kongers simply supported a return to rule under Beijing with minor reservations. The remaining 23% of Hong Kongers opposed return to Beijing (but favored eventual return). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hong Kongers knew full well their choices: (1) rule under Beijing with the accompanying high risk of losing their human rights or (2) independence as the Republic of Hong Kong where those rights are virtually guaranteed. The Hong Kongers chose -- voluntarily -- #1: rule under Beijing. The Hong Kongers are very different from the Taiwanese. Most Hong Kongers support the racist idea of a Chinese motherland. Most Hong Kongers, like most Chinese, believe that racist nationalism is more important than human rights. By contrast, most native Taiwanese believe that human rights and personal prosperity are more important -- much more important -- than racist nationalism. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hong Kongers are now faced with the frightening possibility that if they visited China for, say, business reasons, the Chinese authorities could arrest them, falsely charge them in court, and execute them by firing squad within the same day. How should Amnesty International, the Japanese, the Americans, etc. respond? They should place the nationalistic Hong Kongers at the bottom of the waiting list of people seeking help. The Hong Kongers have no right to expect help from us when they themselves chose nationalism over human rights. There are millions of people who need our help, and these people have never had the wonderful -- rarely available -- chance that the Hong Kongers had to choose the comfort and safety of a pro-human-rights nation over one like China that executes people barbarically. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We should give top priority to supporting the native Taiwanese. However, we should give lowest priority to the Hong Kongers, who prefer racist nationalism over human rights. s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 06:23

In response to S.K. about 1996 Chinese Missile Attack. I don't know how much credit in your excerpts. I do notice a few things subsequent to the 1996 Missile incidence. 1. Japanese Imperial Navy started to station at northern tip of Taiwan, Diaw-Yu-Tai Island to be exactly. 2. the discussion of US and Japan regarding the strategic area covered explicitly and implicitly under US/Japan Defense Treaty. 3. Japanese flatly denied any apology (only retrospect) to China in the face of Jian Tze-Ming, and basiclly showed him the door in his visit to Japan. 4. Frequent discussions in Japaness commentary about securing its south supply channel through Taiwan. 5, Possible inclusion of TAIWAN in US/JAPAN TMD Missile defensive system. 6. Japaness army maneuvered in south Pacific. I can be way off, but I think some strategy is being deployed for possible Chinese Invasion. Will Taiwan be stupid enough not to beef up its security? Hwanger   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 06:34

first off, the documentary was very one sided. It did not went in to depth about the history of Tawain and most of the commentary was biased in favor for an independent Taiwan. To those people who believe in an independent taiwan, I question why. My understanding is that they felt that any reunification would diminish their way of life is rather selfish. Not that anyone would want to lower their standard way of life, but that to divide the people over this matter is very cowardly and shameful. Just think about the following analogy, a son or daughter with new found wealth want nothing to do with his or her parent and family. this is exactly the same thing. concerning those people who consider using the title 'taiwanes', what is the meaning of this. In my opinion, using the title as reference for nationality is one thing, but many who use this title are giving the strong impression that they have nothing to do with being ethnicly chinese. For all those comments from the documentary for the reasons why the 'taiwanese' are so different that they demand independence, can be rebuttal in all aspect. the so called taiwanes language is a derange effort made to give the impression that they are not chinese. this title is use to deny who they actually are hokkien/fukien, my uncle-in-law is fukienese and was able to to speak fluently to people when he visited taiwan and furthermore my dialect chaochow resembles in many way the so called tawainese language. do not be a fool and insult your forefathers. as for the culture of taiwan is different, this is but a ludricous assertion. your culture are chinese in all fibers. It is different in some respect i admit, it is just regional difference. just look at china, the majority people there are han, but since people are isolated in certain regions, their customs have slight variation. in the documentary it also went so far as to claim that Matsu is exclusively taiwanese, this is ridiculous, she is worship by all chinese even those who was heavily influence by china , people in vietnam. Let me make the following serious comment for people chose to differentiate themselves and call for independenc. Whenever a group or person think of themselves separate and distinct, whatever reasoning that follow will also align itself the same way. when those people who think themselves taiwanese, the crimes and atrocities done against them, they would not think that these action are done to our own but because we'er taiwanese. apply this reasoning those emotional events that is repeatedly discussed and you will see where the animosity comes from. those events that occured during the war was not exclusive to taiwan but also their brothers on the mainland. one problem i see that continues to dog this dilemma, is that of the usage of communist. everytime some use it is to give a negative cannotation to china itself. China is not communist according to what the philosophy of communism and neither is america a democracy in accordance to the philosophy of democracy. so i want people to be aware when one use this term and when one comes across, because the author use of the word is to slander, for the word to many's mind represent evil. i want close that i am two generations remove from china, because i was born in vietnam and immigrated to america. i am sure that the majority of overseas chinese around the world will not accept an independent taiwan. Even though we are remove from China, the land of ancestor, we will not stand divided. Duy Tran   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 07:00

Duy Tran says, "i am sure that the majority of overseas chinese around the world will not accept an independent taiwan." Yes. We already know that. When the Chinese threatened to kill the Taiwanese in March 1996 by throwing missiles at the waters near Taiwan, most "Chinese around the world" either were silent or outright supported the savage attack. These Chinese even condemned the Americans for sending 2 aircraft carriers to Taiwan in order to prevent the Chinese from hurting the Taiwanese. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope that a lot of people read this web page. You folks really need to understand the Chinese mentality. The threats of violence by the Chinese against the Taiwanese (if their declare independence) is very real and is supported by most Chinese. The Chinese writing into this forum are not unique. They are typical of most "Chinese around the world". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most Chinese support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, in order to seize the island. The Chinese value racist nationalism more than human life. Almost no one else. Not Americans. Not Canadians. Almost no one else has this kind of mentality. Canadians do not threaten to kill the Quebec-ers when they regularly hold their referendum on independence. The Czecholoslovakians never once raised the issue of violence and murder when their country peacefully divided into 2 independent countries. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Chinese have a concept of right and wrong that is very different from the concept of right and wrong that is held by most Westerners! s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 07:17

It looks like all you have extremely different views. I respect all of you. I think the biggest problem is that we Chinese unfortunately still have the Communist evil leaders in Beijing. So, when Beijing wishes to take over Taiwan. Taiwan will say democracy first, nationalism second. When Jiang Zhe-ming, who came to power out from the 1989.6.4 killing, asked Japan apology, it looks like a killer asking for apology from another killer. So, Japan feels what Jiang really wants is not a "apology" but money. At the end, Jiang's delegation got money but no apology from Japan. So, IF China has a respectful leader AND China has a democratic system, I think we all will have a different view. So, to these Chinese nationalists: if you really want to have a strong China, do some basic things first. Get a respectful president and get a democractic system for China FIRST! M Liu   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 07:31

Seem all comments are emotionally charged. We need to first understand "geographical" and "cultural" differences. For those of us ever been there for a reasonable length of time, the culture in Tijuna is quite different from that in Mexico city. In fact the level of the difference is much greater than that between Taiwan and Beijing. Yet you will be rediculed if you claim to be a Tijuna-American, and you have Tijunal culture and speak Tijunese! As an individual, you have all the rights to choose your identity, your citizenship, but please, don't try to steal other people's culture and call it yours. Benjamin   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 09:03

The Chinese justify invading Taiwan -- an invasion surely killing thousands of women and children -- by saying, "Hey! You Americans did the same thing in 1800 to the Indians or in 1850 in the Civil War!" In other words, the Chinese claim that today's Chinese mentality is approximately the same as the American mentality in 1800. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In 1800, what was America like? Slavery was rampant. Women had no rights. Children worked in the fields for 15 hour-days. Non-whites were routinely butchered. America was a savage society. The Chinese in 1998 claim that their society is the same as 1800 America and, hence (!), has the "right" to invade Taiwan, killing its women and children, to seize the island. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ In 1998, America is quite civilized. No slavery. Children strongly protected by laws. Non-whites can live with little discrimination. America is decent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ We are drawn to 1 inevitable conclusion. Chinese society is approximately 200 (= 1998 - 1800) years behind American society in terms of fundamental notions of right and wrong. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What is frightening is that such a barbaric society (i. e. Chinese society) has possession of nuclear weapons. In March 1996, several Chinese generals hinted at dropping thermonuclear bombs on Los Angeles if the Americans dared to defend Taiwanese women and children from a savage Chinese invasion of Taiwan. s. k.   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 09:38

To LP: You've said all my words. You are such a great defender of the Chinese Federation--a hero of all Chinese!!! Go on! Chinese civilization will continue to thrive on both mainland and Taiwan. --New Communist Pan Chan   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 09:58

Hey! S.K., you are also too young to know about the Chinese politics. Taiwan issue is a domestic one. US or the UN has nothing to do with what could happen between Taiwan Strait. If civil war is inevitable, then let it be. Destruction will eventually bring reorganization and new birth to a unified "Middle Kingdom." There can be only one legitimate government to represent a Chinese Federation. And the former KMT regime in China had lost the civil war to communists and so fled to Taiwan. Obviously, Taiwan issue is an unsolved, residual issue. Taiwan is a RENEGADE province of PRC. It's time to finish the game!!! Pan Chan   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 10:19

I have found many of the statements on this board to me particularly ignorant. Growing up, I have found the attitude of many Taiwanese to be incredibly offensive. It seems to me that by taking up the name Taiwanese, or adding Taiwanese to everything, many are trying to assert themselves as ethnically and culturally different from other Chinese. Many people with this view, that Taiwan has its very own unique culture are correct, but only up to a point. Those who share this opinion seem to have a very stark picture of reality: with CHINA and all mainlanders who are absolutely alike, to TAIWAN, which as a culture all its own. This can not be anything more than a mere exaggeration. Has anyone gone from north China to south China? If you have, you will see drastic changes in culture. Sure, there is still an underlying Chinese culture, but there are many different nuances about each area. I am Chaozhou Chinese. Chaozhou culture is very different from the rest of China, with its very own famous opera, and cuisine. However, it is STILL CHINESE. Chaozhou culture is Chinese to the core, however, it is a different regional type of Chinese culture. The same thing can be applied to the many other different regions in China. Each is drastically different in many ways, yet all areas clearly have an underlying unity. I have found through my personal experiences that many Taiwanese seem to think of all mainlanders as being the same, they all share a stoic perception of Chinese culture. However, upon a more careful examination, you can see that each region holds its very own unique culture. Many Taiwanese also seem to act like foreigners who know nothing about China. They seem to generalize a single image of Chinese culture, and do not understand that it really is multi-faceted. I understood the quote about Chinese culture being a stagnant pool, however, I take personal offense whenever someone generalizes it to such a broad degree. Before someone bashes me about who the hell I am to say such things, I would first have to tell you about my background. I am a 2nd generation Chinese, who was born in Indonesia. I feel a link towards my native culture, but because I am so removed from it, I believe I can look towards it with a unique perception. From my family's personal experiences, we have been treated rather rudely by many other Taiwanese. They just seem to act quite haughty, as though they are above other Chinese. I see it appropriate that there needs to be an address of this term. By calling someone Chinese, it is meant that they share many, if nearly all the same Chinese cultural backgrounds, not necessarily that they are from the mainland. Since I do speak Teochew(Chaozhou), I found it offensive that many Taiwanese believe they speak their very own dialect. This is simply NOT true. Taiwanese is nothing more than Hokkien/Fuzhou. If you label it "Taiwanese", then you are saying that millions upon millions of people on the mainland are speaking Taiwanese. This needless to say is ridculous. I also have to make a point about Matsu. Many Taiwanese have never EVER heard of it, but she is worshipped in the mainland as well as such far away places such as Vietnam. She is not simply a Taiwanese specific divinity. I agree that Taiwanese culture is different, but to say that it is distinct from Chinese culture would require ignoring the fact that in China itself, there are many different regional Han cultures that are different, some a lot more different than Taiwanese culture is from the stereotyped "Chinese" culture. Dai   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 11:27

S.K., you like Hwanger need to speak for yourselves. You seem to think THAT ALL Chinese are the same. THEY ARE NOT. You would think that with one billion people, there are many who have differing opinions. Also, who are you to say that Chinese culture is barbaric. In my opinion, every country is barbaric. The U.S. is barbaric for its bloody history and one-sided views. The United Kingdom is barbaric for practically imperializing the entire world, ripping centuries old countries to pieces and being proud of its colonial past. Japan is barbaric for invading nearly all of east and southeast asia. NO SINGLE SOCIETY can be afforded as being "clean". Your statements are simply ignorant, and too broad and generalized. To S.K., I also believe you frequent uses of the word "racist" in refering to Hong Kong people as unnecessary and blatantly ignorant. You seem to have nothing but hatred in your heart. To be fair, I have many friends from Hong Kong. The reason why they so closely associate themselves to China is because they feel a closer kinship the the country as a whole, not necessarily to the government itself. Hong Kong is connected to the mainland, where as Taiwan is not, so it is much easier for Taiwanese to distance themselves from China. Also, many Hong Kong people are not necessarily proud that they were taken away by force from China. It should be further enlightening to note that unlike Taiwan, Hong Kong in the early century shared in many of the same miseries and mass starvations which befell China, including a brutal Japnese invasion which links them in experience to China. Taiwan has experienced these too, but what Hong Kong experienced was closer to what the mainland did than Taiwan. For all these reaons and more, they feel more closely connected than Taiwan does. You should never have called Hong Kong people racist. You both need to stop thinking that ALL Chinese think the same. If you did, you would not be calling its sociey and peoples such names. Looking at Duy Tran's comments, I do have to agree with him on many of his points. It seems that he has a detached personal observation, something that is free from simple emotional argument. I have to comment that what S.K. and Hwanger take as Chinese ignorance that we are simply racist or ignorant in saying that we are going to become a force to be reckoned with in the upcomming century is something else. You seem to try so much to not understand the situation. There are Chinese spread out everywhere in the world. China itself is rife with change, nothing seems to be solid, and reliable. It is for these reasons which many Chinese speak with a sense of pride about the ancestory. After all, the present situation, and indeed the past represent no sense of solitude, why not look to a hopeful future? A wish for a unified China simply represents this attitude. I myself feel this way, though with none of the negative connotations with which both of you attach to them. My grand parents fled a war in China, and settled in South Vietnam, only to flee again to Indonesia, and finaly to end up here, in the U.S.. One of the things which consoles us is that we may finally one day live together in peace, and not be split by petty bickering. Dai   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 12:05

To the person who calls himself the New Communist: Sir, has it ever occured to you that you are the biggest supporter of Taiwan Independence? Your every threat, and your every bloodthirsty warning, only serve in adding to the dislike to your way of thinking. I pray that you are not a good representation of China and the Chinese people as a whole. If unfortunately you are, then I, a Chinese from Taiwan who is against independence, will definately support it. Surely if you regard me as family, you will not threaten to destroy me. Has the Communist Regime failed in teaching love and care for your own people? It certainly seems like it, it is people like you who made the Tienanmen Massacre possible. You might think you are a champion of the Chinese people, but you are not, you are the destroyer! One final question, if you are such an advocate for communism, where free speech is not encouraged, why are you voicing yourself so freely? Are you, as your comrade, LP put it, also a separatist? Alan Du   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 12:43

There is no question that Taiwanese are Chinese, and the so called "Taiwanese Culture" is nothing but a regional sub-culture of the Chinese nation. First of all, we must understand that the term Chinese does not mean "Han", but is a nation made up of some 55 different ethnic groups. Further more, since the majority of the Taiwanese population, over 95% are "Han" Chinese anyway. Therefore, the racial orgines of Taiwanese are unquestionablly CHinese. In terms of cultural especial, the so called Taiwanese culture is nothing but a regional culture of China, its society is Confucian, its family values are Chinese, its language are a dialect of Chinese with its Origine coming from Fujien. If Taiwan culture can be argue as a different culture than "Chinese culuture", then there wouldn't be any CHinese culture because Canton, Shanghai, Peking, Chengdu, Manchuria would all have so called different "culture" and "languages", so which one is and which ons isn't Chinese? In conclusion, TIers just like to BS their way and come up with all the trash logics to justify their TI...through LIES, DISTORTION, AND TWIST! KMT Blue-Shirt   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 15:05

Dear Lily and Rossie Hsueh: Thank you, girls, speaking out the conscience of all freedom-loving people. I admire you for having the courage to take a stand in the issue at your age. That alone is something that all 1.2 billion Chinese wouldn't or couldn't achieve. Thank this so-called Imperialist or "foreign ghost" country - America allow you to pursue this good cause without the fear of being persecuted. Enough of words, let's put in deeds. Is there a fund set up for the "Berkeley Students for Sovereign Taiwan"? or WEB site? I'd like to contribute to the cause. My kids are in IVY league, I sent them a copy of that document and hope all freedom-loving young people set up the same organization. "When you Built it, people'll come" as we American say it. We need also boycott anything made in China from now on, not because anyone tell you to do so, but a way to differentiate you from a rotten civilization as MR. BOR YUNG called it. It's an honor to hear from you. God bless you, girls. Hwanger   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 17:37

To LP, please tell me what kind of democratic system China will have and when, so we may go for unification then. You said it will not be like the one in Taiwan. I hope the "new democratic system" in China will not allow 1989.6.4. to happen. And people's representatives will not be just "voting machines". Under the "new democratic system", will the new generation leader be still chose by old generation super leader? I like to know your picture of China's democracy. Thanks! M Liu   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 19:10

To the "RED GUARD IN BLUE SHIRT", I know you can not handle the fact, but you really don't have to show the world the true color of your collapsed civilization. Hwanger   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 20:22

Hwanger: What fact? You mean the fact that you can't escape products that are MADE IN CHINA? And the fact that Taiwan is part of China? You continue to your "American" okay, Taiwan is Chinese people's business, not your business! KMT Blue-Shirt   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 21:01 GMT

Read the following excerpt is from San Jose Mercury News on Wednesday, December 9, 1998: War criminals: Tokyo's refusal to help identify suspect is 'wrong,' Justice Department flatly says. Wiesenthal efforts Moved by the gripping confessions--one man tearfully recalled he cut down a 12-year-old boy begging for his life to teach other soldiers how to kill--Cooper sought ways to bring their stories to the U.S.. He Also stepped up efforts to obtain a public statement from the U.S. government about Japan's record. Unlike Germany and other European nations that have coopereated with U.S. efforts, Japan, despite years of requests, has not granted access to archival records or even confirmed the birth dates of war-crimes, suspects independently identified by U.S. investigators, Rosenbaum said. Japanese officials in Washington declined comment. The issue of wartime atrocities, such as the 1937 slaughter of Chinese in Nanjiang, China, germ-warfare research by the Japanese army and forced sexual servitude has dogged the Japanese for more than a half-century. Hobbled relations The issue became a main sticking point last month during a state visit of Chinese President Jiang Zemin, the first Chinese leader to set foot on Japanese soil, when Tokyo refused to offer a formal apology for its wartime cruelties. Sincerity questioned Last week, Japanese Ambassador Kunihiko Saito went on television in the United States to debate Iris Chang of Sunnyvale, author of the bestselling book "The Rape of Nanking," and argue--again--that Japan has apologized numerous times for its war misdeeds. Despite Japan's efforts to rectify its past--including a string of apologies, a privately funded compensatiion program and textbook revisions t o more fully reflect the wartime record--its lack of cooperation on the war-criminal issue is certain to raise fresh accusations of insincerity. Rosenbaum said his office has been able to identify fewer than 100 Japanese suspects compared with 60,000 Europeans on the "watch list" of those ineligible to enter the United States. He said his office requested brith date information two years ago from Japan but has received no response. --By Mercury News Staff Writer Ken McLaughlin contributed to this report. Pan Chan   Thursday, Dec. 17 1998 at 23:21 GMT

It is too bad to see this discussion becomes more and more emotional, and to see personal attacks here. I hope you all soon will become more reasonable, but I do respect people like you who have that kind strong belief in unification or independence. ................... However, in realty, politicians will only use people like you to get their benefits. Finally, you people will suffer the most. Right now, the leaders in Beijing are known as without any belief. They do not believe in communism nor capitalism. Example 1, all you hate that Japan did not apologize to China. But, officially, both Beijing and Tokyo claimed Jiang's visit to Japan as a success. The realty is: Jiang used "demand for an apology" to get money. Example 2, China arrested democracy activitists every year. Then, these democracy activitists are sent to the United States. The realty is: Jiang uses this to exchange diplomatic benefits from the United States. If China's leaders really believe that these democracy activities are evil elements of the society. They should kill them or ... Example 3, China lanches campaigns agaist prostitution every year. But, many newspapers reported that during the campaign periods, government units collected a lot of fine and contribution. San Jose Mercury News, in a few weeks ago, reported Chinese goverment actually collects tax from San-Pei Ladies (prostitutes). ............ I wish to know if anyone of you will think Mr. Jiang Zheming really believes in unification. If the Beijing government again uses this unification issue to push for more economic aids and investment from Taiwan. What will you do ? Y Wang   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 00:12 GMT

I agree with Y. Wang. Based on Taiwanese newspaper reports, DDP is also working to change their pro-independence platform in order to win more votes. Be carefully, do not be stupid to be used by politicians. Jiang Zhe-ming can use "apology demand" to exchange for loans. Beijing can use "release of democracy activitists" to exchange for diplomatic benefits. China government can use "campaign agaist prostitution" to collect more fines and money. It surely can use "unification demand" to exchange anything. Hopefully, the Jiang Zheming and his comrades will not able to use your life to exchange for their benefits. Y Li   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 01:03 GMT

Dear Pan Chan: If Japanese had done all the atrocious acts that you would like people to believe, why the greatest leader of China, MAO TZE-TUNG, repetitivily and explicitly announced his sincere gratitude to Japanese people for their invasion to China. He said: "Without Japanese invasion, there would be no PROC, and Chinese would never be able to stand up". He can be called into the witness stand to defend Japanese in the court of law. I'm personally confused by the credibility of your history. Who wrote your history? Who put the final touches in your history to fulfill polical goals? Or perhaps all Chinese historians are all chronicle liars? I bet you that you won't see anything about the JUNE 4 Tianman Massacre recorded in the history of your motherland. Lot's of your countrymen/women died of nothing. If there were no Tianman Massacre as Chinese always claim, maybe there's no Nanking Massacre as Japanese always maintain. Do you like to bring your beloved comrades to court for the Tianman Massacre? I'm totally confused by your glorious history? Somebody please help. Ken Mclaughlin 2   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 02:02 GMT

Good point, Ken Mclaughlin. YKL   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 03:09 GMT

FROM KQED ADMINISTRATION: Thank you for your participation in the first KQED Bay Window dialogue online. The Comment Board will receive new postings until Fri. 12/18/98 5pm Pacific Standard Time. If you have specific suggestions for other forums in which to continue the dialogue, please post them before that time. Look for up-coming Bay Window specials on KQED TV9 and visit us online again next time. * Note: Times are posted in Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) because the Web is an international medium. On the basis of audience feedback, the times will be set in Pacific Standard Time on future comment boards. Thank you. KQED Administration   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 03:11 GMT

I disagree with Ken Mclaughlin. Yes, Mao Tze-tung is a evil leader. Jiang Zheming, China's current leader, also has some responsibility of the 1989.6.4 killing. But, this should grant no base for Japanese to deny the Nanjing massacre. That is why I said "I think the biggest problem is that we Chinese unfortunately still have the Communist evil leaders in Beijing." Mainland Chinese should work to get a better leadership in Beijing, before deal with Taiwan issue. M Liu   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 03:31 GMT

Dear Pan Chan: If Japanese had done all the atrocious acts that you would like people to believe, why the greatest leader of China, MAO TZE-TUNG, repetitivily and explicitly announced his sincere gratitude to Japanese people for their invasion to China. He said: "Without Japanese invasion, there would be no PROC, and Chinese would never be able to stand up". He can be called into the witness stand to defend Japanese in the court of law. I'm personally confused by the credibility of your history. Who wrote your history? Who put the final touches in your history to fulfill his polical goals? Or perhaps all Chinese historians are chronicle liars? I bet you that you won't see anything about the JUNE 4 Tianman Massacre recorded in the history of your motherland. Lot's of your countrymen/women died of nothing. If there were no Tianman Massacre as Chinese always claim, maybe there's no Nanking Massacre as Japanese always maintain. Do you like to bring your beloved comrades to court for the Tianman Massacre? No, like most of Chinese, you simply lack of courage and conscience to seek the justice for those victims - the last brave gooup of Chinese. As for you, you're simply a clown with a legend in your own mind. Ken Mclaughlin II Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 06:22 GMT Ken Mclaughlin II   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 06:36 GMT

After Hong Kong went back to China, Hong Kong's textbooks were re-written and used "6.4 event" to replace "6.4 massacre". IF Taiwan goes back to China, Taiwan's textbooks will also have to be re-written. YCL   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 07:27 GMT

I am glad that Pan Chan admitted that Tiananmen event is a tragedy. But Pan Chan's reasons used to "justfy" the killing are similar to these used by KMT for 228, and similar to these used by Japanese old men for Nanjing killing. YCL   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 08:45 GMT

There is one difference between Chinese communist Party and KMT in Taiwan, Japan Government. New KMT apologized in written for 228, and paid compensation. New Japan leaders at least apologized verbally. But, new Communists have not yet apologized even verbally for 1989.6.4. C Wu   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 09:07 GMT

A suggestion to solve the problems for China in regard of Taiwan and Tibet. 1,According to UN convention of "effectively govern", Tibet is part of China. (I am not going to talk about history) 2,From a practical point of view. Tibet is very important to China. When we talk about natural resources we usually mean petroleum, iron etc, we tend to forget that water is the most important natural resource of all. Tibet is the origin of nine of the biggest rivers in the world. 3,Even if there is a referendum in the future, the "RESIDENT" OF Tibet(including native Tibetan and Chinese Tibetan) will not vote for indepedent. I am 100% sure of that. 4, Chinese government should guarantee human rights, rule of law and nonviolence in all parts of China. 5, Since Taiwan is not under "effective govern" of China, the policy toward Taiwan should be different from the Tibet. China should pursue unification but not at all cost. There should be no use of force. A war between Taiwan and mainland is unthinkable. It will be brothers kill brothers. There will be no winners. Even now it has cost both side dearly. Just look at the money wasted in buying weapons. 6,If Taiwan wants a referendum for indepedent, let it be. You can not be against the will of people. In reality, Taiwan will never be truely indepedent from China culturally,economically,and politically; unless China stops progress herself. TOM. Z   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:22 GMT

I have a question. Since today is the last day for this forum and I have been following this interesting forum, I would like to know how come KMT Blue-Shirt and Pan Chan have so much time expressing their old opinions aggressively over and over again? Are they using their workplace computer like me, or are they unemployed and bored? For all the other viewers: Merry Christmas! Handsome   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:23 GMT

YCL, as a participant in 6.4, personally, I would call it event/movement, instead of massacre. I was on the suare till 6.4 eve, and in Beijing till July. I would say there were not that many people died. The information I have is about several hundred, mostly unemployed people, not students as reported. Now the media and the former D leader are boasting a number of 5000 people killed, which is not believeable. You know how reporters dealing with numbers...But imagine, China is a society which evryone has about 100 relatives. If 5000 college students (3% of high school students goes to college), what kind of imapct it will have in the society? (Personally, I heard gun shots, and know people got shot and survived.) ****************************************************** Anyway, it is a crime for killing civilians in all cases, especially for a government to kill its people! However, look vertically and horizontally, ALL government killed, or are killing, their people!!! KMT&CCP in Mainland, KMT in 228, US in 1960's, Russia.....Compare with 228, the 6.4 participants were even more vunlerable, as most people just want the best for the country. To be fair, there was adequate warning from the goverment side, especially in hte 6.4 eve brfore the troops moved in, that's why most people left in the 6.4 eve, except people who has no where to go or trust too much the cunning Cai Ling (now Harvard MBA and made $millions as a vigorous shamless China basher)! ******************************************************* That was about 10 years ago, and I was not event 20! In retrospect, I am positive there were US & KMT influence during the 6.4, who just want to overthrough China by misguiding the students. However, I am glad I tried to contribute to China as a warm-blooded youngster. As a student leader(minor & unknown) and an excellent student, I could not finish my senior year in college, was delined a degree, I paid my dues and I am glad to make what I can out of life today as a humble engineer in the valley. I am still bitter about Li Peng. If I were him, or if he is as good a patriate as me, I would resign or committ suicide. Because he did more BAD than GOOD to China. For Deng XiaoPing, I admire him for his contribution to China; For Jian ZM, I wish he can do more... ******************************************************** I comdemn, detaste all the seperatists, TI people, just as Li Peng! If we are brothers, I don't mind we argue, or event fight, we are still brothers in the end! But if you want to seperate, or change your last name to Yamaguchi, then pls move out, get out of my sight, before I KICK you out! ******************************************************** There is no absolutely perfect solution. The bombing of Iraq is a live example. As an individual, we just needs to make the best of it. Don't ask what your country do for you, but what you do for your country, right? If you don't have a COUNTRY, then forget about it, you are a tragety. ******************************************************** From my personal experience, I call to you don't trust ALL politicians, CCP/KMT/TI/DPP/GOP/DOP, monitor them instead! ******************************************************* I believe TW and ML will eventually reunit, most likely peacefully. okay,getting too personal. back to work. Thanks for the program,KQED,which I supoprted for two yrs, I got better understanding of Taiwan and of 228. The killing of Lin YiXiong's (DPP leader) whole family was gutwrenching, I felt the pain, and I understand his personal anger. i wish he can consider it as his sacrifice to his country, greater China, not going TI. But who can blame him? Dan   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:23 GMT

As far as I know, most "Chinese" speaking people in the Bay Area watch Super Sunday for their Sunday night relaxation. Isn't that something? Why do we have to disagree with each other so intensively? I believe humor, art, music, and many other creative forms of expression will make us closer and more human. Super Sunday proofs it. Super Sunday   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:28 GMT

Why so many Chinese people think of Taiwanese their own "brothers" ? That is incredible. You don't go to some stranger and call them, "hey! brother, come home with me. " If you want to be brother (or sister) to someone, show them there is need for forming a family, and find out whether they want to be your family or not. Respect people's feeling and willingness is important. Super Monday   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 17:49 GMT

CORRECTION. Dear D.S.T. (Distraught Sino Tragedy): Your moan and groan about your tragedy has not answered my question to all hardcore Chinese (your body Pan Chan, Blue-Shirt included), i.e.,how credible your history is. Hack, you wouldn't even have enough logic (or GUT) to use insanity plead to defend your greatest chairman MAO TZE TUNG - the best friend of Japanese. Speaking of burtality, ask those Taiwanese Victims of 228 and WHITE TERROR. Ask those innocent Chinese died in many communist campaigns. Don't I know you Chinese way of persecution? "DE-ROOT THE WEED?" "SLAUGHTER ERVERY ONE WITHIN 9-LEVEL OF KINSHIP?" Ring any bell? How Mr. Lin's Mother and 3 lovely daughters were convinently slaughtered in the same night? The brutality that you've inflicted on your people would make Japaness cry daddy. Your answer to this 5000 year repercussion is ... I'm speechless from my conscience as a human being. I think any reasonable human being will try to avoid this endless horrible repercussion. People can tell from the face of those Chinese risking their lives for a piece of freedom (from the cursed repercussion of being a Chinese). I certainly strongly support Taiwanese for independence just for the same cause. Ken Mclaughlin II   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 19:46 GMT

Wow, no flames pls. ******************************* To Cai Wu, you did not read my post fully. I came to the US with less than $500 in pocket, went for almost a year work-study hard time. Got scholarship with super GRE/TOEFL, and became a good engineer. I made all my $$ as engineer, IRS be my witness. I don't envy anyone make $$$, including Cai, as far as it is legal/honest money, plus she/he sleeps well. I did not financially benefit from 6.4, besides getting free food/drinks on the T-square like anyone else. I know some d-fighters got not-so-honest $$, that's why I understand your emotion. *********************************************** To YCL, I want to commend your fair honest reasoning. If you know the history in the past twenty years, you know China has progressed greatly. I went back to China first time this year visiting a sick elder and I was pleasantly suprised. If you have not live there before, you would not appreciate the progress. Indeed, I think what we fight for in T-square 10 yrs ago is indeed a better life for Chinese people, a better China. I think the current government is doing okay. there is room for doing better for sure. But we all know Rome was not built in one day, nor did Great Wall. The key here is get on the right track. ********************************************** As for Wang YC, I personally don't know him, just read from media. My take on this is you need to prepare to take it on the chin if you want to be in politics, you need to prepare to sacrifice. It is a dog-eat-dog situation, look at Clinton. Ten years ago, I was really bitter about my mistreatment, my father, a professor who survived the cultural revolution, asked me: don't complain, just think about what you would do to them (Li Peng etc) if your student win? what a wiseman! I am proud I got in politics in 1989 and paid price, I am glad I am not a politician now. However, I do value life, killing people in all situation is sin. ******************************************************** I was visited by a police commander when i visited my hometown, still don't know who informed them. we had some friendly chats, nothing much. I told him I was out of Jiang-Hu, both of us laughed hard. He later gave me a bottle of good wine. Situation is not as what you saw on TV/movie here anymore. As for my commrades, they are in academia, in business, etc, most of them are living well. One guy owns a computer company, makes big $$. ********************************************************** It is interesting chat with you guys online. seems taiwan issue is an emotional one. let's all think in others shoes and think in granduer scales, and let the history do its work. Anyone knows other BBS like this? Dan   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 21:25 GMT

Some Chinese exclaimed, "The killing of Lin YiXiong's (DPP leader) whole family was gutwrenching, I felt the pain, and I understand his personal anger. i wish he can consider it as his sacrifice to his country, greater China, not going TI." As I've said many times before, most Chinese support racist nationalism over human rights. The Chinese whom I quoted is yet another example. He tells Lin Yi-hsiung that he should view the brutal murder of his mother and his twin baby girls as a "sacrifice to his country, greater China". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, this Chinese is sickening. Yet, most Chinese support the view that racist nationalism is more important than human rights. Most Chinese support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, to seize the island. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Most Chinese in Chinese dominated pro-human-rights or pro-democracy organizations support invading Taiwan, killing its women and children, to seize the island. If you claim that my statement is false, then I challenge you to find 3 articles (from reputable Western sources) which report that these supposed pro-democracy Chinese condemned China when the Chinese savagely launched missiles against the Taiwanese in 1996. I want you to prove me wrong. However, sadly, you will not be able to find such articles. On the other hand, what you will find are articles (from the San Jose Mercurcy News in 1996) recording interviews with Chinese (in Silicon Valley companies) who told the United States to move its navy away from Taiwan so that the Chinese can re-claim Taiwan for the "Chinese motherland." The USA went to Taiwan to defend its women and children from Chinese savagery in 1996, and the Chinese living comfortably in Silicon Valley told the Americans to get the hell out. Go figure naked savagery. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ As recently as last month, the Chinese via dictator Jiang Zemin again threatened to murder the Taiwanese during his visit to Japan. The supposed pro-democracy and pro-human-rights Chinese condemned Jiang Zemin for not obtaining a written apology from Japan, but those same Chinese were absolutely silent when Jiang Zemin threatened to murder the Taiwanese. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Folks. Next time, if a supposed pro-democracy and pro-human-rights Chinese comes to solicit money and support for his Chinese democracy organization, you should ask him point blank his position on Taiwan and his organization's position on Taiwan. If he tries to evade the question or (more likely) tries to say that the Chinese are entitled to take back Taiwan by force, then you folks should refuse to give that hypocrite any money. You should show that hypocrite the door. Tell him to get out of your face. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Again allow me to repeat that most Chinese who committed the murders and brutality against Taiwanese in 1947-1987 Taiwan have escaped justice. Many of those Chinese live in the United States. An example was Madame Chiang Kai-Shek. They should be deported from the United States. Crimes against humanity have no statute of limitations. We should lobby the government of the US to give the KMT government (on Taiwan) an ultimatum. "Either prosecute and imprison these Chinese criminals or we will cut off all military and financial support!" These Chinese criminals and specifically murderers should serve time in prison for the rest of their lives and should pay restitution to the Taiwanese victims. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ God help us if these Chinese monsters are allowed to escape justice. s. k.   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 22:37 GMT

The issue of Unification v.s. Independence has four aspects : 1) National identity aspect. 2) Political system aspect. i.e. Democracy v.s. Communism. 3) Ecnomic aspect e.g. Richer Taiwan v.s. the poorer mainland. 4) International relations and geo-politics aspect. To avoid getting lengthy. I'll give my views on these aspects in separate posts. Many here has given exellent views about 1), 2), 3) already. So I'll start with 4). Taiwan issue has a long history in geo-politics of Asia. The island is strategically important for both China and Japan, and the U.S. First, a bit of historic background. From economy point of view, Japan severely lacks natural resource. Most of its raw materials come from China, South East Asia and Middle East. Taiwan straight sits right in the middle of its shipping route to S.E. Asia and Middle East. By having Taiwan, Japan would secure its route to its major sources of raw material and a large portion of its market. In the old days, this was done through force. In the very early days of militarism, after defeating China in the first Sino-Japanese war, Japan sees the strategic importance of Taiwan and immediately annexed it. Today, Japan uses investments rather than guns to secure its source of material and markets, but the basic economic reason is the same : Japan is a series of overcrowded islands with little natural resource. Geo-politically, Japan wants to be the leader of East Asia. This aspiration brings it in potential conflict with China, which because of its size, has the potential to be the biggest chanllenger. Not surprisingly this was recognised in the very early days of Japanese imperialism. To China's disadvantage, most of its economic and political centers are on the East Coast reachable from Taiwan. More over, the series of island chains from Okinawa to Taiwan almost entirely encampass China's route to pacific. The situation is, if there is a conflict or large dispute between China and Japan, whoever has Taiwan will have a huge upperhand. China can virtually gurantee its demand by simply cutting or threaten to cut Japanese "life line" to resource and markets. Where as if Japan has Taiwan on its side, it can cut or threaten to cut China route to the Pacific. Both Japanese and the U.S. used Taiwan as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, from which they can project forces to almost all China's major ports, and among them China's most important ecnomic and trade centers. Part of reason that China fought such a bitter war during WWII is due to its inability to access Allied supplies from the sea because Japanese's domination of the coast lines. (This is how Burma-Yunan road became famous, as China's "life line" during WWII). Today's situation makes it unlikely that there'll be war like that in near future. But the geo-political interest has always been a important consideration in many countries decisions, including those involved in Taiwan issues. From Japanese point of view, although the modern day transportaion and economic globalisation has reduced Japan's reliance on the routes around Taiwan, Japan still sees it as its most important water way. In particular, it is its sole route for oil and S.E. Asia is the place where Japan invested most in both markets and resources. It is fair to say that there are clear selfish reasons for Japanese not to want Taiwan reunite with China; for that spells the clear end of Japanese ambition and will undoubtly puts into the shadow of a united China. From Chinese point of view, Taiwan is not only a national soverignty issue but also an strategic spot to allow it break away from any potential danger of being "contained" or "sanctioned" ecnomically or militarily. Its ecnomic development depends not only on internal reforms but also continued open-door trade, and that makes its access to the pacific important. If Cuba is an irritation for the U.S. at its doorsteps, then an Independent Taiwan will be much worse for Chinese. To them, it's a permanent loss of control of the country's future. So how would this affects country's opinion ? Japan will not easily give in to China's demand. It's own interest dictates that it will continue to support Taiwan independence in any way it can. Chinese believe they can not affort to give up on Taiwan. Although they know not renoucing use of force would be a psychologically damaging for reunification, but renouncing it will be like putting its deepest national interest in a gamble. For the U.S. it would like to see Taiwan became China's cuba, but it also realises that immediate independence will probably trigger a Chinese invasion that could turn out for it to lose Taiwan altogether. Toothy   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 22:53 GMT

After reading the comments by Ken Mclaughlin II, I finnally understand why Taiwan and Japan do not support China's democracy movement AND do not support China for winning the right of holding Olympic Game. Yes, the longer Mao Zhe-tung's dead body occupies the Tiananmen Square, the longer China is ruled by Jiang Zheming and Li Peng, the less demand for Japan to offer an apology, the less real presure for Taiwan to unite with China there will be. However, PLEASE WATCH CAREFULLY, some big big change WILL happen in China in 1999. Y Li   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 23:45 GMT

Dan, do you really live in Los Altos? If so, how can you be sold so cheap? Just for a bottle of rice wine, you change your position from against CCP to against Cai Ling??? C Wu   Friday, Dec. 18 1998 at 23:49 GMT

I am kind of agree and disagree with C Wu. Yes, a lot of people such as Dan can be "purchased" to support the Chinese government for very little "benfits". It is like a slave used to certain life style. One day, the master gives him a holiday. "How wonderful" the world is, he will say. If it is in the "culture revolution" period, Mr. Dan might get arrested as a person involved in 6.4 and stayed in USA. So, Jiang Zheming is better than Mao Zhetung. Why do not you Taiwan come back? ZY Chen   Saturday, Dec. 19 1998 at 00:05 GMT

Thanks to all participants. Visit us again for the next Bay Window, January 26th from 8-10pm on Astronauts.