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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 9 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Artificial intelligence is rapidly changing the American workplace, and virtually every week brings a new report that entry-level white-collar jobs could be replaced by chatbots. Facing an uncertain future, 1 in 4 college students no longer believe their degree is worth the time and money. The New Yorker’s Jay Caspian Kang has been reporting on how A.I. is reshaping higher education, and he joins us to talk about whether the four-year college can survive A.I.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past few weeks, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> staff writer Jay Caspian Kang has been writing about whether his nine-year-old daughter will go to college nine years from now. And if she does, what her college experience might be like, given advances in AI, demographic shifts that predict a steep enrollment drop, and growing skepticism about the value of a college degree these days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s been doing a lot of research, talking to a lot of people for his series of columns examining the pressures facing higher education, and he joins me now to tell us what he learned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, are you questioning whether a college education will be worth it in the coming years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jay, thanks so much for coming on Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the series of columns began with you asking if your nine-year-old will even be attending college less than a decade from now, in 2035.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have to admit, it was a question that sort of startled me because I also have two kids around your daughter’s age, and a teenager as well. Even with everything I’ve read and the conversations I’ve hosted here on the show about the transformative potential of AI, I have not questioned whether they would go to college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I was still operating from my own experience of college as an inevitability. When I was applying in the nineties, it was like, “Of course I’m going to go to college.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that what it was like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, I think the general idea was that if you don’t go to college, you’re going to end up in a terrible financial situation, right? There’s an implicit threat there, which, to put it as frankly as possible, was: if you don’t go to college, you’re going to end up homeless.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this something your parents said to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, maybe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was sixteen or seventeen, I did think, “Well, maybe I just won’t go to college.” I was reading a lot of Jack Kerouac and stuff. And I think the message put into my head was: you have to go, and everybody goes. If you don’t go, you’re going to have a terrible life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You won’t be able to find a job. Everyone wants to see that you have a degree. All that kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Right. This entire world of upward mobility and all these jobs won’t be open to you anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that, even without AI, that has changed quite a bit for young people in America. The idea that college is inevitable if you’re from a certain demographic or your parents have a certain level of educational attainment—we’re talking about middle-class, upper-middle-class, and wealthier families—that college is simply part of the path of every eighteen-year-old, I think that’s loosened a bit. Not entirely, obviously, and not in any dramatic way, but a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The attitude has shifted from, “Of course you’re going to college because it’s a wonderful experience and it’s going to turn you into a fully realized human being,” to something much more cynical. For many eighteen-year-olds now, it’s more like, “I just need this credential.” I don’t see the same sense of inevitability or spiritual value attached to college anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My thinking was: okay, we have these macro trends, and then we have the introduction of AI. Is it really so inevitable that this nine-year-old who sits on the couch reading comic books all day is going to go to college? Do I actually need to keep contributing to this 529 plan? That was the thinking behind it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know these macro trends preceded the current AI discussion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I had this idea that there would always be something special about college—that I’d be exposed to things I hadn’t thought about, learned about, or could even conceive of. That I’d build relationships with people who had dedicated their lives to becoming experts in something, and with students I never would have met in my high school environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, A, you’re saying that specialness is fading, and B, you’re talking about this broader disillusionment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much do you think AI has contributed to that disillusionment about college being worth pursuing—or worth the high cost?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re still in the very early stages of that. But I do think that, for a lot of people, the combination of rampant AI-assisted cheating at all levels has been significant. When I first heard about it, I was somewhat skeptical because my rule when thinking about academics—and I don’t mean this pejoratively—is that academics tend to complain about everything. So I thought maybe this was another example of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I looked into it more deeply. It’s so rampant. I talked to many professors for this series, and the stories they told me were really heartbreaking. They couldn’t even get students to read fifteen pages of something that, ten years ago, students would have loved reading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were begging students, saying things like, “I don’t even care what you write about it. I just want you to have a thought. I want you to have a feeling about it. Let’s talk about that.” And even then, they would receive obviously AI-generated work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As that reality sinks in, and as people continue asking whether AI is going to replace us—which has become a huge theme in commencement speeches, where students are now booing whenever AI gets mentioned—it makes all of these existing concerns feel much more urgent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why so many people are talking about college and AI right now. All the problems that already existed, AI has stepped on the neck of them and turned them into an emergency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I really liked your column, “The Despair of the Professor in the Age of AI.” Actually, it made me sad. You quote professor Jane Sloan Peters, who says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There are these waves of relief that wash over me when I see misspellings and poor grammatical structure in sentences, when I can tell they’re really working through it themselves.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What did professors tell you about what it feels like, especially for those who see teaching not just as research but as inspiring students and helping them struggle through ideas they’ve never encountered before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a professor from Grambling State University in Louisiana who’s a theater professor. He told me he’s tried everything—blue-book exams, handwritten in-class assignments, oral examinations, oral assessments. But what he really wants is for students to read something like August Wilson’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fences\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or even just watch the movie adaptation, and have some kind of reaction to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks that if students want to be actors or playwrights, they need to know this work. They need to be inspired by something that serves as a foundation of American theater. And he says that over the past five years, it’s become incredibly difficult to get students to engage with that material because they’re constantly taking the easiest route.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who’s a writer, and someone who was inspired by many books growing up—even though I was a pretty poor student—I still found things I read that became deeply important to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s heartbreaking to hear. That exchange—reading something, being inspired by it—it doesn’t have to happen in a classroom. You can find books at the library. You can discover ideas on your own. But for a lot of kids, it does happen in the classroom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And through college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Exactly. We went to college, at least in part, hoping that would happen. Even if another motivation was not wanting to end up on the street. You hoped that somewhere along the way you’d encounter something transformative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To hear professors say that this part of their job—the part that gets them out of bed in the morning—is becoming so much harder, that’s really sad. Sometimes all they want is one or two students a year to genuinely connect with an idea. I found those accounts very emotionally moving as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jay Caspian Kang, listeners, about questions surrounding the viability of the American university system in the age of AI and the broader shifts that have made higher education increasingly vulnerable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to invite you into the conversation. Are you questioning whether a college education will be worth it in the coming years? Do you attend or work at a college or university? How has AI already affected your campus? What do you think makes college special or valuable? And how would you like to see colleges evolve to meet the AI age, if you don’t think they should become obsolete?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you feel like, with AI, that experience you’ve had—where a professor awakened your mind or exposed you to something meaningful—is less likely for your kid ten years from now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I hope not. I’d hope those texts still exist and that the existential and important questions they raise are still there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think that if people aren’t careful, if we’re not intentional right now, the idea that reading can be replaced by chatbot summaries is something schools—and really society—need to guard against very seriously. The problem is that AI tends to average everything down to a single interpretation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It creates sameness. For me, one of the most important things I read in college was the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bhagavad Gita\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It changed my life. It made me think differently about duty, about what Arjuna is thinking on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still think about it all the time. If all you get is a chatbot summary—one interpretation that an AI has decided is the most probable or most acceptable—then you’ve lost something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no interpretation anymore. There’s no inquiry. It’s just: “This is what it’s about.” Everyone accepts the same reading. And then the whole point of reading and intellectual inquiry is lost because you’re simply being handed the conclusion you’re supposed to reach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A listener on Discord is touching on that point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steve writes:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We need to improve critical-thinking skills and fact-checking skills before students even get to college. We need to cultivate commonsense faculties grounded in the real world, to which LLMs are entirely blind, and train humans to do and be what AI inherently cannot.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with Jay Caspian Kang after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stay with us, listeners. This is Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 9 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Artificial intelligence is rapidly changing the American workplace, and virtually every week brings a new report that entry-level white-collar jobs could be replaced by chatbots. Facing an uncertain future, 1 in 4 college students no longer believe their degree is worth the time and money. The New Yorker’s Jay Caspian Kang has been reporting on how A.I. is reshaping higher education, and he joins us to talk about whether the four-year college can survive A.I.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the past few weeks, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">New Yorker\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> staff writer Jay Caspian Kang has been writing about whether his nine-year-old daughter will go to college nine years from now. And if she does, what her college experience might be like, given advances in AI, demographic shifts that predict a steep enrollment drop, and growing skepticism about the value of a college degree these days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He’s been doing a lot of research, talking to a lot of people for his series of columns examining the pressures facing higher education, and he joins me now to tell us what he learned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And listeners, are you questioning whether a college education will be worth it in the coming years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jay, thanks so much for coming on Forum.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the series of columns began with you asking if your nine-year-old will even be attending college less than a decade from now, in 2035.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I have to admit, it was a question that sort of startled me because I also have two kids around your daughter’s age, and a teenager as well. Even with everything I’ve read and the conversations I’ve hosted here on the show about the transformative potential of AI, I have not questioned whether they would go to college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think I was still operating from my own experience of college as an inevitability. When I was applying in the nineties, it was like, “Of course I’m going to go to college.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Was that what it was like for you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I mean, I think the general idea was that if you don’t go to college, you’re going to end up in a terrible financial situation, right? There’s an implicit threat there, which, to put it as frankly as possible, was: if you don’t go to college, you’re going to end up homeless.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is this something your parents said to you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, maybe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I was sixteen or seventeen, I did think, “Well, maybe I just won’t go to college.” I was reading a lot of Jack Kerouac and stuff. And I think the message put into my head was: you have to go, and everybody goes. If you don’t go, you’re going to have a terrible life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You won’t be able to find a job. Everyone wants to see that you have a degree. All that kind of stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Right. This entire world of upward mobility and all these jobs won’t be open to you anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that, even without AI, that has changed quite a bit for young people in America. The idea that college is inevitable if you’re from a certain demographic or your parents have a certain level of educational attainment—we’re talking about middle-class, upper-middle-class, and wealthier families—that college is simply part of the path of every eighteen-year-old, I think that’s loosened a bit. Not entirely, obviously, and not in any dramatic way, but a little bit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The attitude has shifted from, “Of course you’re going to college because it’s a wonderful experience and it’s going to turn you into a fully realized human being,” to something much more cynical. For many eighteen-year-olds now, it’s more like, “I just need this credential.” I don’t see the same sense of inevitability or spiritual value attached to college anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My thinking was: okay, we have these macro trends, and then we have the introduction of AI. Is it really so inevitable that this nine-year-old who sits on the couch reading comic books all day is going to go to college? Do I actually need to keep contributing to this 529 plan? That was the thinking behind it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know these macro trends preceded the current AI discussion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess I had this idea that there would always be something special about college—that I’d be exposed to things I hadn’t thought about, learned about, or could even conceive of. That I’d build relationships with people who had dedicated their lives to becoming experts in something, and with students I never would have met in my high school environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, A, you’re saying that specialness is fading, and B, you’re talking about this broader disillusionment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much do you think AI has contributed to that disillusionment about college being worth pursuing—or worth the high cost?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re still in the very early stages of that. But I do think that, for a lot of people, the combination of rampant AI-assisted cheating at all levels has been significant. When I first heard about it, I was somewhat skeptical because my rule when thinking about academics—and I don’t mean this pejoratively—is that academics tend to complain about everything. So I thought maybe this was another example of that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then I looked into it more deeply. It’s so rampant. I talked to many professors for this series, and the stories they told me were really heartbreaking. They couldn’t even get students to read fifteen pages of something that, ten years ago, students would have loved reading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were begging students, saying things like, “I don’t even care what you write about it. I just want you to have a thought. I want you to have a feeling about it. Let’s talk about that.” And even then, they would receive obviously AI-generated work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As that reality sinks in, and as people continue asking whether AI is going to replace us—which has become a huge theme in commencement speeches, where students are now booing whenever AI gets mentioned—it makes all of these existing concerns feel much more urgent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why so many people are talking about college and AI right now. All the problems that already existed, AI has stepped on the neck of them and turned them into an emergency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I really liked your column, “The Despair of the Professor in the Age of AI.” Actually, it made me sad. You quote professor Jane Sloan Peters, who says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“There are these waves of relief that wash over me when I see misspellings and poor grammatical structure in sentences, when I can tell they’re really working through it themselves.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What did professors tell you about what it feels like, especially for those who see teaching not just as research but as inspiring students and helping them struggle through ideas they’ve never encountered before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a professor from Grambling State University in Louisiana who’s a theater professor. He told me he’s tried everything—blue-book exams, handwritten in-class assignments, oral examinations, oral assessments. But what he really wants is for students to read something like August Wilson’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fences\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or even just watch the movie adaptation, and have some kind of reaction to it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks that if students want to be actors or playwrights, they need to know this work. They need to be inspired by something that serves as a foundation of American theater. And he says that over the past five years, it’s become incredibly difficult to get students to engage with that material because they’re constantly taking the easiest route.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As someone who’s a writer, and someone who was inspired by many books growing up—even though I was a pretty poor student—I still found things I read that became deeply important to me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it’s heartbreaking to hear. That exchange—reading something, being inspired by it—it doesn’t have to happen in a classroom. You can find books at the library. You can discover ideas on your own. But for a lot of kids, it does happen in the classroom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And through college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. Exactly. We went to college, at least in part, hoping that would happen. Even if another motivation was not wanting to end up on the street. You hoped that somewhere along the way you’d encounter something transformative.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To hear professors say that this part of their job—the part that gets them out of bed in the morning—is becoming so much harder, that’s really sad. Sometimes all they want is one or two students a year to genuinely connect with an idea. I found those accounts very emotionally moving as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jay Caspian Kang, listeners, about questions surrounding the viability of the American university system in the age of AI and the broader shifts that have made higher education increasingly vulnerable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I want to invite you into the conversation. Are you questioning whether a college education will be worth it in the coming years? Do you attend or work at a college or university? How has AI already affected your campus? What do you think makes college special or valuable? And how would you like to see colleges evolve to meet the AI age, if you don’t think they should become obsolete?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Email forum@kqed.org. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, or Instagram at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you feel like, with AI, that experience you’ve had—where a professor awakened your mind or exposed you to something meaningful—is less likely for your kid ten years from now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jay Caspian Kang:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I hope not. I’d hope those texts still exist and that the existential and important questions they raise are still there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think that if people aren’t careful, if we’re not intentional right now, the idea that reading can be replaced by chatbot summaries is something schools—and really society—need to guard against very seriously. The problem is that AI tends to average everything down to a single interpretation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It creates sameness. For me, one of the most important things I read in college was the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bhagavad Gita\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. It changed my life. It made me think differently about duty, about what Arjuna is thinking on the battlefield.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I still think about it all the time. If all you get is a chatbot summary—one interpretation that an AI has decided is the most probable or most acceptable—then you’ve lost something.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no interpretation anymore. There’s no inquiry. It’s just: “This is what it’s about.” Everyone accepts the same reading. And then the whole point of reading and intellectual inquiry is lost because you’re simply being handed the conclusion you’re supposed to reach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A listener on Discord is touching on that point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steve writes:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“We need to improve critical-thinking skills and fact-checking skills before students even get to college. We need to cultivate commonsense faculties grounded in the real world, to which LLMs are entirely blind, and train humans to do and be what AI inherently cannot.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll have more with Jay Caspian Kang after the break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Stay with us, listeners. This is Forum. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Andrew Sean Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel “Less,” he was the executive director for a writer’s foundation based in Italy and sponsored by a baronessa. It was a job he has compared to “running a bed-and-breakfast for maniacs.” That experience informs his latest comic novel “Villa Coco,” which centers a young man adrift and yes, a baronessa. We talk to Greer, who lives half the year in San Francisco and the other half in Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His upcoming Bay Area appearances include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friday, 6/12 at 7:00 PM – The Booksmith at The Peacock Lounge\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 6/13 at 1:00 PM – Book Passage Corte Madera\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 6/13 at 5:30 PM – Rakestraw Books with Ayelet Waldman\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wednesday, 8/19 at 7:00 PM – Kepler’s Books\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 10/17 at 12:30 PM – Litquake presents “Zyzzyva Movie Night at the Roxie,” screening of Fellini’s Amarcord, conversation with Ingrid Rojas Contreras\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"59\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"61\" data-end=\"442\">Before Andrew Sean Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel \u003cem data-start=\"128\" data-end=\"134\">Less\u003c/em>, he was the executive director for a writers’ foundation based in Italy and sponsored by a Baronessa. It was a job he has compared to, quote, “running a bed and breakfast for maniacs.” That experience informs his latest comic novel, \u003cem data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"379\">Villacoco\u003c/em>, which centers on a young person adrift and, yes, a Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"444\" data-end=\"623\">This is sort of the Stanley Tucci of novels: small and elegant, funny and in search of pleasure. It’s in book form, and its author joins us this morning. Welcome to Forum, Andrew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"647\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me back here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"684\" data-end=\"846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"684\" data-end=\"704\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So you have described \u003cem data-start=\"733\" data-end=\"744\">Villacoco\u003c/em> as a, quote, “charm novel.” What do you mean by that, and why did you want a novel that was charming?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"848\" data-end=\"1232\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"848\" data-end=\"870\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, I think I was looking around myself for something that would be sophisticated, but calming, and leave you with a sense of absurdity and hope and a sense of humor. I was thinking of Graham Greene’s entertainments or Mitford novels, and I thought, “Well, I guess I’m going to have to write one,” because those are all from the forties. So that’s what I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1254\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it is not a romance novel in that it follows none of the genre tropes of romance. But those novels can have some of that feeling, just sort of with torrid sex scenes in between the charming parts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1489\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m not much for torrid sex scenes—writing them, I mean. I’m all for them for everyone else. I’m too prudish. But I do think—and maybe I’m 1940s in that way—that charm comes from entering another world that is a romance, like a fantasy in a way, about what life could be if we didn’t read the newspaper every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1887\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1838\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tell us about the world that we enter into here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1889\" data-end=\"2106\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1889\" data-end=\"1911\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, our young man has just graduated from college. He’s an American, and he wants to take life seriously at last. He thinks a job in Europe is the perfect way to do that, which is foolishness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2108\" data-end=\"2159\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2108\" data-end=\"2128\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is Europe if not serious?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2161\" data-end=\"2222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2161\" data-end=\"2183\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Right? It’s old. They must be serious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2224\" data-end=\"2553\">So he takes a job as an assistant. He’s not quite sure what the job is. He arrives, but he cannot tell where the villa is. There’s just an ivy-covered wall and a dusty road, and then a door opens in the wall, and there’s a sort of chaos of baskets and pots and pans inside that is kind of a view into the life he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2555\" data-end=\"2720\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2555\" data-end=\"2575\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how familiar are you with this area of Italy? Right? I mean, this is rural Tuscany. This is not really tourist Tuscany. It’s some other part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2722\" data-end=\"2836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2722\" data-end=\"2744\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s not Chianti, the wine region. It’s really kind of rough, with bumpy dirt roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2838\" data-end=\"3010\">Well, I lived there. I visited for years and years, starting in 2005, and I lived there for two years. And you have to watch out for wild boar. You do not want to meet one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3012\" data-end=\"3170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3012\" data-end=\"3032\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And landscape-wise, it is the Tuscan countryside I’m imagining, right? Olive trees, sloping hills, some forest and field. It’s like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3172\" data-end=\"3283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3172\" data-end=\"3194\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> It is all that. You’ve seen it in the background of Renaissance paintings over and over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3285\" data-end=\"3460\">But we tend to ignore the forest part, and the forest is the fascinating part. It’s full of deer and boar and porcupines and all kinds of creatures that you have to live with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3462\" data-end=\"3730\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3462\" data-end=\"3482\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Our young man in this novel goes on these glorious hikes through this countryside, and it gave you an opportunity to do some pretty serious nature writing. It felt like the changing of seasons in this part of Italy, as well as the flora and fauna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3732\" data-end=\"3838\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3732\" data-end=\"3754\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, I wanted to think about what people wouldn’t have seen if they were tourists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3840\" data-end=\"4073\">Tuscany is pretty widely written about, and I thought, “People won’t have seen the approach of winter or late summer and how all of that changes.” Or how, in this forest, you see remnants of the old Roman roads that used to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4075\" data-end=\"4250\">Even if you don’t feel like you’re in Florence itself or Rome, that history is all over the place, buried and tumbled down in the ivy and the honeysuckle and, later, the snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4252\" data-end=\"4378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4252\" data-end=\"4272\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You’ve had many jobs in your life, including one that was running this writers’ residency in Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4380\" data-end=\"4539\">This writers’ residency is not normal. It’s been written up in \u003cem data-start=\"4443\" data-end=\"4463\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tell us about that experience and the Baronessa that you met in real life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4541\" data-end=\"4722\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4541\" data-end=\"4563\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I am not the only writer who went there with trepidations, wondering, “What in the world is this thing?” and then came away feeling that it was life-changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4724\" data-end=\"5021\">It is not an empty, Puritan space with just a chair and a place for you to write. You’re surrounded by art and objects from around the world. And at dinner, there’s this incredible person, Beatrice, who would lead everyone in conversation about topics of general interest—which is usually a fault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5023\" data-end=\"5107\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5023\" data-end=\"5043\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is that an Italian phrase you’re translating back into English?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5187\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5131\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I’m so caught up in the Italian language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5189\" data-end=\"5376\">I always thought a dinner at a writers’ retreat with a Baronessa would involve the most important, deep conversations, but it was usually bawdy stories. That’s what’s of general interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5378\" data-end=\"5435\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5378\" data-end=\"5398\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s like \u003cem data-start=\"5409\" data-end=\"5424\">The Decameron\u003c/em>, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5437\" data-end=\"5497\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5437\" data-end=\"5459\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Very much like \u003cem data-start=\"5481\" data-end=\"5496\">The Decameron\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5499\" data-end=\"5784\">But I didn’t put any of the writers into this book, and I could never capture my Baronessa in all of her depth. So I invented a new Baronessa and a world in which I didn’t want to put in the writers’ private lives. Anyway, that’s too complicated for a novel. That will be for a memoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5786\" data-end=\"5887\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5786\" data-end=\"5806\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Although you did borrow some quirks, shall we say, from the real-life Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5889\" data-end=\"6003\">One thing I noticed was that, in \u003cem data-start=\"5922\" data-end=\"5942\">The New York Times\u003c/em> profile of her, something happens if you put a hat on a bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6054\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6027\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yes. I had to put that in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6056\" data-end=\"6152\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6056\" data-end=\"6076\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What happens? Are you cursed forever, or is there some way to deal with it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6154\" data-end=\"6231\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6154\" data-end=\"6176\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Someone’s going to die. That’s what’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6233\" data-end=\"6280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6233\" data-end=\"6253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> If you put a hat on a bed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6282\" data-end=\"6398\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6282\" data-end=\"6304\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> So it’s really dire. And the only way to fix it is to touch the testicles of the nearest man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6400\" data-end=\"6450\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6400\" data-end=\"6420\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This is an actual real thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6452\" data-end=\"6508\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6452\" data-end=\"6474\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, according to the Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6510\" data-end=\"6710\">My Italian husband has never heard of that second part, but it definitely made it funnier. And I think that was the credo at the place where I worked: if it’s funnier, that’s how we’re going to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6712\" data-end=\"6744\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6712\" data-end=\"6732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6746\" data-end=\"6935\">Let’s talk a little bit about this main character, this young man graduating from college. He shares a couple of your biographical details. We only get a couple of his biographical details.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6937\" data-end=\"7140\">How much was this sort of living back into the person you were at that time, and how much was imagining the perfect American from a suburban neighborhood and a two-parent home and all that kind of stuff?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7142\" data-end=\"7309\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7142\" data-end=\"7164\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Some of his details I made my own because I wanted him, for purposes of the comedy, to be incredibly buttoned-up and serious. He’s an archivist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7311\" data-end=\"7511\">I was raised by two scientists who believed in a very Newtonian version of the world, where everything works perfectly according to formulas. I thought, “Well, that’s perfect. I can give that to him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7513\" data-end=\"7646\">He can live where I lived in suburban Maryland, where he hasn’t seen very much of the world. From there, he just took off on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7648\" data-end=\"7825\">Because if I’d made him myself, he would have been much more accident-prone, I think. He has more confidence than I did, and he makes some very wise choices at a very young age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7827\" data-end=\"8000\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7827\" data-end=\"7847\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I loved the part where a person he becomes involved with in the book does an imitation of him as an American, which is all of his excited interjections:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8002\" data-end=\"8008\">“Wow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8010\" data-end=\"8017\">“Yeah.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8019\" data-end=\"8038\">“What’s happening?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8040\" data-end=\"8080\">That was me at that age, too, I believe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8082\" data-end=\"8178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8082\" data-end=\"8104\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> That is how my husband makes fun of me. He says I’m always saying, “Wow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8180\" data-end=\"8292\">No, “What’s happening?” is the funniest one to me because that’s clearly me in Italy saying, “What’s happening?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8294\" data-end=\"8384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8294\" data-end=\"8314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yes, because you now spend half your time in Venice, as I understand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8386\" data-end=\"8467\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8386\" data-end=\"8408\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I do. Of all crazy things, that’s where life has taken me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8469\" data-end=\"8575\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8469\" data-end=\"8489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. From suburban Maryland to Venice is actually a very good path, though, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8577\" data-end=\"8623\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8577\" data-end=\"8599\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I think I’ve done well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8625\" data-end=\"8737\">At least, it’s a wonderful place to write, and it feeds into the fantasy, as an American, of what life could be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8739\" data-end=\"8912\">Three years ago, I thought nobody lived in Venice. It’s like living in Sleeping Beauty’s Castle at Disneyland. Maybe you could get married there, but you can’t stay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8914\" data-end=\"8940\">But you can. I live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8942\" data-end=\"8984\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8942\" data-end=\"8962\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That is amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8986\" data-end=\"9169\">The era in which this book is set, I also think, is pretty important. The 1990s were a very different time. This was pre-9/11, pre-the long wars in the Middle East, and post-Cold War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9171\" data-end=\"9271\">How do you think that informs the naivete of our young man as he approaches the grand old continent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9273\" data-end=\"9490\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9273\" data-end=\"9295\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I think those of us who were around in the early nineties didn’t feel like it was a time of innocence. It felt like we had to fight against this war and that war and all these political battles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9492\" data-end=\"9612\">But looking back, it just seems like the sweetest time. It was the end of history. All problems were going to be solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9831\">Especially for a novelist, it was before the problem of having cell phones in a novel. They really ruin a novel. People can’t get lost. They can’t misunderstand. They can’t receive a message that means something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9833\" data-end=\"9874\">It’s wonderful not to have them—or email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9876\" data-end=\"9930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9876\" data-end=\"9896\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, right. I guess that’s true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9932\" data-end=\"10125\">If narrative is about revealing facts in the right order or circumstances in the right order, cell phones make all of that instantaneous. It’s why there feel like so few good cell phone novels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10127\" data-end=\"10230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10127\" data-end=\"10149\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I guess you can misunderstand on cell phones. We do it all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10232\" data-end=\"10412\">But in this book, I got to have an important message reach the protagonist while he’s away from the villa. He misunderstands it, races home, and thinks something else has happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10414\" data-end=\"10489\">That could only happen with a crackly telephone conversation that cuts out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10491\" data-end=\"10529\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10491\" data-end=\"10511\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10531\" data-end=\"10678\">Do you think that the people of this Italian villa saw the 1990s as anything special? Or was it just another decade in the millennia of this place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10680\" data-end=\"10784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10680\" data-end=\"10702\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I’m sure it seems trapped, in this novel certainly, in a bubble of its own logic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10786\" data-end=\"10952\">And also the place where I worked. Because things work in Italy not according to a schedule or a program the way they might in Sweden. Things are all done personally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10954\" data-end=\"11168\">Every light switch turns on in a different way. Every toilet flushes using a different mechanism. Plugs are not identical throughout the house, and you need different adapters for different rooms for the same lamp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11170\" data-end=\"11234\">That’s just because a different person fixed that plug long ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11236\" data-end=\"11407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11236\" data-end=\"11256\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with San Francisco writer Andrew Sean Greer about his latest novel, \u003cem data-start=\"11339\" data-end=\"11350\">Villacoco\u003c/em>. Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel \u003cem data-start=\"11400\" data-end=\"11406\">Less\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11409\" data-end=\"11562\">Of course, we want to hear from you as well. Was there an older person or mentor in your life who dispensed life-changing wisdom just when you needed it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11564\" data-end=\"11622\">You can give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11624\" data-end=\"11658\">You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"11643\" data-end=\"11657\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11660\" data-end=\"11723\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, June 9 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before Andrew Sean Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel “Less,” he was the executive director for a writer’s foundation based in Italy and sponsored by a baronessa. It was a job he has compared to “running a bed-and-breakfast for maniacs.” That experience informs his latest comic novel “Villa Coco,” which centers a young man adrift and yes, a baronessa. We talk to Greer, who lives half the year in San Francisco and the other half in Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His upcoming Bay Area appearances include:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friday, 6/12 at 7:00 PM – The Booksmith at The Peacock Lounge\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 6/13 at 1:00 PM – Book Passage Corte Madera\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 6/13 at 5:30 PM – Rakestraw Books with Ayelet Waldman\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wednesday, 8/19 at 7:00 PM – Kepler’s Books\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Saturday, 10/17 at 12:30 PM – Litquake presents “Zyzzyva Movie Night at the Roxie,” screening of Fellini’s Amarcord, conversation with Ingrid Rojas Contreras\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"59\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"61\" data-end=\"442\">Before Andrew Sean Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel \u003cem data-start=\"128\" data-end=\"134\">Less\u003c/em>, he was the executive director for a writers’ foundation based in Italy and sponsored by a Baronessa. It was a job he has compared to, quote, “running a bed and breakfast for maniacs.” That experience informs his latest comic novel, \u003cem data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"379\">Villacoco\u003c/em>, which centers on a young person adrift and, yes, a Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"444\" data-end=\"623\">This is sort of the Stanley Tucci of novels: small and elegant, funny and in search of pleasure. It’s in book form, and its author joins us this morning. Welcome to Forum, Andrew.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"682\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"625\" data-end=\"647\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having me back here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"684\" data-end=\"846\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"684\" data-end=\"704\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. So you have described \u003cem data-start=\"733\" data-end=\"744\">Villacoco\u003c/em> as a, quote, “charm novel.” What do you mean by that, and why did you want a novel that was charming?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"848\" data-end=\"1232\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"848\" data-end=\"870\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, I think I was looking around myself for something that would be sophisticated, but calming, and leave you with a sense of absurdity and hope and a sense of humor. I was thinking of Graham Greene’s entertainments or Mitford novels, and I thought, “Well, I guess I’m going to have to write one,” because those are all from the forties. So that’s what I did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1465\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1234\" data-end=\"1254\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I mean, it is not a romance novel in that it follows none of the genre tropes of romance. But those novels can have some of that feeling, just sort of with torrid sex scenes in between the charming parts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1816\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1467\" data-end=\"1489\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I’m not much for torrid sex scenes—writing them, I mean. I’m all for them for everyone else. I’m too prudish. But I do think—and maybe I’m 1940s in that way—that charm comes from entering another world that is a romance, like a fantasy in a way, about what life could be if we didn’t read the newspaper every single day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1887\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1818\" data-end=\"1838\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Tell us about the world that we enter into here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1889\" data-end=\"2106\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1889\" data-end=\"1911\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, our young man has just graduated from college. He’s an American, and he wants to take life seriously at last. He thinks a job in Europe is the perfect way to do that, which is foolishness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2108\" data-end=\"2159\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2108\" data-end=\"2128\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What is Europe if not serious?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2161\" data-end=\"2222\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2161\" data-end=\"2183\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Right? It’s old. They must be serious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2224\" data-end=\"2553\">So he takes a job as an assistant. He’s not quite sure what the job is. He arrives, but he cannot tell where the villa is. There’s just an ivy-covered wall and a dusty road, and then a door opens in the wall, and there’s a sort of chaos of baskets and pots and pans inside that is kind of a view into the life he’s going to have.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2555\" data-end=\"2720\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2555\" data-end=\"2575\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how familiar are you with this area of Italy? Right? I mean, this is rural Tuscany. This is not really tourist Tuscany. It’s some other part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2722\" data-end=\"2836\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2722\" data-end=\"2744\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Right. It’s not Chianti, the wine region. It’s really kind of rough, with bumpy dirt roads.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2838\" data-end=\"3010\">Well, I lived there. I visited for years and years, starting in 2005, and I lived there for two years. And you have to watch out for wild boar. You do not want to meet one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3012\" data-end=\"3170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3012\" data-end=\"3032\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And landscape-wise, it is the Tuscan countryside I’m imagining, right? Olive trees, sloping hills, some forest and field. It’s like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3172\" data-end=\"3283\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3172\" data-end=\"3194\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> It is all that. You’ve seen it in the background of Renaissance paintings over and over.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3285\" data-end=\"3460\">But we tend to ignore the forest part, and the forest is the fascinating part. It’s full of deer and boar and porcupines and all kinds of creatures that you have to live with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3462\" data-end=\"3730\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3462\" data-end=\"3482\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Our young man in this novel goes on these glorious hikes through this countryside, and it gave you an opportunity to do some pretty serious nature writing. It felt like the changing of seasons in this part of Italy, as well as the flora and fauna.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3732\" data-end=\"3838\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3732\" data-end=\"3754\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, I wanted to think about what people wouldn’t have seen if they were tourists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3840\" data-end=\"4073\">Tuscany is pretty widely written about, and I thought, “People won’t have seen the approach of winter or late summer and how all of that changes.” Or how, in this forest, you see remnants of the old Roman roads that used to be there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4075\" data-end=\"4250\">Even if you don’t feel like you’re in Florence itself or Rome, that history is all over the place, buried and tumbled down in the ivy and the honeysuckle and, later, the snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4252\" data-end=\"4378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4252\" data-end=\"4272\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. You’ve had many jobs in your life, including one that was running this writers’ residency in Italy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4380\" data-end=\"4539\">This writers’ residency is not normal. It’s been written up in \u003cem data-start=\"4443\" data-end=\"4463\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tell us about that experience and the Baronessa that you met in real life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4541\" data-end=\"4722\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4541\" data-end=\"4563\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I am not the only writer who went there with trepidations, wondering, “What in the world is this thing?” and then came away feeling that it was life-changing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4724\" data-end=\"5021\">It is not an empty, Puritan space with just a chair and a place for you to write. You’re surrounded by art and objects from around the world. And at dinner, there’s this incredible person, Beatrice, who would lead everyone in conversation about topics of general interest—which is usually a fault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5023\" data-end=\"5107\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5023\" data-end=\"5043\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Is that an Italian phrase you’re translating back into English?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5187\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5109\" data-end=\"5131\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> That’s right. I’m so caught up in the Italian language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5189\" data-end=\"5376\">I always thought a dinner at a writers’ retreat with a Baronessa would involve the most important, deep conversations, but it was usually bawdy stories. That’s what’s of general interest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5378\" data-end=\"5435\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5378\" data-end=\"5398\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> It’s like \u003cem data-start=\"5409\" data-end=\"5424\">The Decameron\u003c/em>, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5437\" data-end=\"5497\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5437\" data-end=\"5459\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Very much like \u003cem data-start=\"5481\" data-end=\"5496\">The Decameron\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5499\" data-end=\"5784\">But I didn’t put any of the writers into this book, and I could never capture my Baronessa in all of her depth. So I invented a new Baronessa and a world in which I didn’t want to put in the writers’ private lives. Anyway, that’s too complicated for a novel. That will be for a memoir.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5786\" data-end=\"5887\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5786\" data-end=\"5806\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Although you did borrow some quirks, shall we say, from the real-life Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5889\" data-end=\"6003\">One thing I noticed was that, in \u003cem data-start=\"5922\" data-end=\"5942\">The New York Times\u003c/em> profile of her, something happens if you put a hat on a bed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6054\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6005\" data-end=\"6027\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yes. I had to put that in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6056\" data-end=\"6152\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6056\" data-end=\"6076\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What happens? Are you cursed forever, or is there some way to deal with it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6154\" data-end=\"6231\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6154\" data-end=\"6176\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Someone’s going to die. That’s what’s going to happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6233\" data-end=\"6280\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6233\" data-end=\"6253\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> If you put a hat on a bed?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6282\" data-end=\"6398\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6282\" data-end=\"6304\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> So it’s really dire. And the only way to fix it is to touch the testicles of the nearest man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6400\" data-end=\"6450\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6400\" data-end=\"6420\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> This is an actual real thing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6452\" data-end=\"6508\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6452\" data-end=\"6474\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Well, according to the Baronessa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6510\" data-end=\"6710\">My Italian husband has never heard of that second part, but it definitely made it funnier. And I think that was the credo at the place where I worked: if it’s funnier, that’s how we’re going to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6712\" data-end=\"6744\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6712\" data-end=\"6732\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6746\" data-end=\"6935\">Let’s talk a little bit about this main character, this young man graduating from college. He shares a couple of your biographical details. We only get a couple of his biographical details.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6937\" data-end=\"7140\">How much was this sort of living back into the person you were at that time, and how much was imagining the perfect American from a suburban neighborhood and a two-parent home and all that kind of stuff?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7142\" data-end=\"7309\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7142\" data-end=\"7164\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Some of his details I made my own because I wanted him, for purposes of the comedy, to be incredibly buttoned-up and serious. He’s an archivist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7311\" data-end=\"7511\">I was raised by two scientists who believed in a very Newtonian version of the world, where everything works perfectly according to formulas. I thought, “Well, that’s perfect. I can give that to him.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7513\" data-end=\"7646\">He can live where I lived in suburban Maryland, where he hasn’t seen very much of the world. From there, he just took off on his own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7648\" data-end=\"7825\">Because if I’d made him myself, he would have been much more accident-prone, I think. He has more confidence than I did, and he makes some very wise choices at a very young age.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7827\" data-end=\"8000\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7827\" data-end=\"7847\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I loved the part where a person he becomes involved with in the book does an imitation of him as an American, which is all of his excited interjections:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8002\" data-end=\"8008\">“Wow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8010\" data-end=\"8017\">“Yeah.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8019\" data-end=\"8038\">“What’s happening?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8040\" data-end=\"8080\">That was me at that age, too, I believe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8082\" data-end=\"8178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8082\" data-end=\"8104\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> That is how my husband makes fun of me. He says I’m always saying, “Wow.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8180\" data-end=\"8292\">No, “What’s happening?” is the funniest one to me because that’s clearly me in Italy saying, “What’s happening?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8294\" data-end=\"8384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8294\" data-end=\"8314\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yes, because you now spend half your time in Venice, as I understand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8386\" data-end=\"8467\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8386\" data-end=\"8408\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I do. Of all crazy things, that’s where life has taken me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8469\" data-end=\"8575\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8469\" data-end=\"8489\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. From suburban Maryland to Venice is actually a very good path, though, I think.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8577\" data-end=\"8623\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8577\" data-end=\"8599\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I think I’ve done well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8625\" data-end=\"8737\">At least, it’s a wonderful place to write, and it feeds into the fantasy, as an American, of what life could be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8739\" data-end=\"8912\">Three years ago, I thought nobody lived in Venice. It’s like living in Sleeping Beauty’s Castle at Disneyland. Maybe you could get married there, but you can’t stay forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8914\" data-end=\"8940\">But you can. I live there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8942\" data-end=\"8984\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8942\" data-end=\"8962\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That is amazing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8986\" data-end=\"9169\">The era in which this book is set, I also think, is pretty important. The 1990s were a very different time. This was pre-9/11, pre-the long wars in the Middle East, and post-Cold War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9171\" data-end=\"9271\">How do you think that informs the naivete of our young man as he approaches the grand old continent?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9273\" data-end=\"9490\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9273\" data-end=\"9295\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I think those of us who were around in the early nineties didn’t feel like it was a time of innocence. It felt like we had to fight against this war and that war and all these political battles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9492\" data-end=\"9612\">But looking back, it just seems like the sweetest time. It was the end of history. All problems were going to be solved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9614\" data-end=\"9831\">Especially for a novelist, it was before the problem of having cell phones in a novel. They really ruin a novel. People can’t get lost. They can’t misunderstand. They can’t receive a message that means something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9833\" data-end=\"9874\">It’s wonderful not to have them—or email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9876\" data-end=\"9930\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9876\" data-end=\"9896\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, right. I guess that’s true.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9932\" data-end=\"10125\">If narrative is about revealing facts in the right order or circumstances in the right order, cell phones make all of that instantaneous. It’s why there feel like so few good cell phone novels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10127\" data-end=\"10230\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10127\" data-end=\"10149\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Well, I guess you can misunderstand on cell phones. We do it all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10232\" data-end=\"10412\">But in this book, I got to have an important message reach the protagonist while he’s away from the villa. He misunderstands it, races home, and thinks something else has happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10414\" data-end=\"10489\">That could only happen with a crackly telephone conversation that cuts out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10491\" data-end=\"10529\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10491\" data-end=\"10511\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10531\" data-end=\"10678\">Do you think that the people of this Italian villa saw the 1990s as anything special? Or was it just another decade in the millennia of this place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10680\" data-end=\"10784\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"10680\" data-end=\"10702\">Andrew Sean Greer:\u003c/strong> I’m sure it seems trapped, in this novel certainly, in a bubble of its own logic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10786\" data-end=\"10952\">And also the place where I worked. Because things work in Italy not according to a schedule or a program the way they might in Sweden. Things are all done personally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10954\" data-end=\"11168\">Every light switch turns on in a different way. Every toilet flushes using a different mechanism. Plugs are not identical throughout the house, and you need different adapters for different rooms for the same lamp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11170\" data-end=\"11234\">That’s just because a different person fixed that plug long ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11236\" data-end=\"11407\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"11236\" data-end=\"11256\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with San Francisco writer Andrew Sean Greer about his latest novel, \u003cem data-start=\"11339\" data-end=\"11350\">Villacoco\u003c/em>. Greer won the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for his novel \u003cem data-start=\"11400\" data-end=\"11406\">Less\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11409\" data-end=\"11562\">Of course, we want to hear from you as well. Was there an older person or mentor in your life who dispensed life-changing wisdom just when you needed it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11564\" data-end=\"11622\">You can give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11624\" data-end=\"11658\">You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"11643\" data-end=\"11657\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"11660\" data-end=\"11723\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for more right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 28 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the main drivers of homelessness in the Bay Area is simply a lack of affordable housing for people with the very lowest incomes. In Part 4 of our series “In Search of Home: Solutions for the Homelessness Crisis” we’ll take a look at some innovative strategies developers and cities are exploring to fund projects and lower the cost of construction. We bring together housing developers, housing experts and Bay Area residents to discuss what works to bring more permanent housing that formerly homeless people can actually afford.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/YjdZf2uhwn0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, October 7 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has a massive economy, the power of Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and we grow much of the nation’s food. As the Trump administration targets the state with federal cuts, ICE raids, and the deployment of the National Guard, some are asking: How could California—and other blue states—use their considerable power? Could there be a kind of “soft secession” from the federal government? We’ll talk about the possible paths for blue-state resistance.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/YjdZf2uhwn0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Over the last 20 years, Republican-controlled states and their allies in the judiciary have built a new power infrastructure out of the latent potential of statehood. And now, as the Trump administration breaks norms — and often laws — in pursuit of a different America, there have been calls in blue states to fight back against federal power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But what should the states do, and how? It’s not just resisting. Blue states are also building new alliances to take on some of the tasks that traditionally would have been federal responsibilities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In a new essay in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Clara Jeffrey outlined some of the many tactics now at play to throw the states’ economic might around. It’s a set of maneuvers that could be tantamount to a “soft secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To talk about what that could mean, we’re joined by Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Welcome, Clara.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks so much for having me, Alexis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And we’re also joined by John Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. Welcome, Jon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Clara, let’s just go straight to the name — “soft secession.” How do you define that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s defined not as a violent break like 1861, but another term for it is “noncooperative federalism.” Basically, it’s where states that are aligned in values and purpose team up to either defensively or offensively act in their own best interest — to protect their citizens, their values, their programs, their funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And who is actually arguing for this? Are there people out there aside from your essay, saying it’s time for soft secession? Are there Democratic politicians saying this, or is this more of a whisper-network thing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would say it’s more essayists, law professors — people who historically have probed this even before the Trump administration — but it’s also coming to the fore with people just searching for solutions, and also searching for a way to describe the things that are already happening. Like these vaccine compacts, or moves by blue-state attorneys general to mount a defensive wall against some of the worst Trump administration incursions, certainly around things like immigration raids and trying to roll back the rights of both citizens and residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, as our law professor here on the show, I’m curious how you see this playing out in the legal community. Obviously, going back a long time to the very founding, this kind of state versus federal power has been an enormous issue in constitutional law and in many other areas. But things are different now, it feels like.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I think the term “secession” invites a lot of curiosity, enthusiasm, and aversion. Its provocative nature is a conversation starter. But I think what — and I don’t want to speak for Ms. Jeffrey — but I think what we’re talking about here is decentralization. A reconfiguration of federal-state power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you alluded to, that’s happened at various points in our history — some quite productively, some quite problematically. The energy in this conversation is really about whether federal power, which is being mobilized against large segments of the American people and culture, can be recalibrated in a way that gives states and communities more authority and discretion to chart a different course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If we want to get into the history, it’s very rich with examples that can be mined.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, does it feel uncomfortable, Clara Jeffrey, to feel like you’re arguing for states’ rights? You know, this kind of long-time Republican position?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right. There’s very much an irony there. Traditionally, in my lifetime, it’s been the Republican Party — particularly the far right wing — that invoked states’ rights, often to fend off desegregation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So yes, it is a flipping of alliances on its head. And I think we’re seeing this play out more and more in real time at higher levels. Just last night, Gavin Newsom basically threatened to walk away from the Governors Association, which has been around for more than a hundred years. And JB Pritzker kind of did the same. They’re saying, “If you’re going to send troops into our state over our objections, in ways that we think are against the law, then we’re not going to be aligned with you in this compact of governors anymore.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So once you start looking around for signs that there’s a grand reconsideration happening, you’ll see it everywhere.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jon, tell us about the kind of legal infrastructure that’s in place here. Going all the way back, but also in the last twenty years — it feels like there’s been a new set of decisions and a new set of understandings in red states about how to resist federal government power that maybe now can be put in play for blue states?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s helpful to frame it that way, because it also points to one of the big challenges. Resistance and noncompliance are a lot easier when you’re not engaged in constructive state-building, when you’re not interested in ensuring that your institutions are well-funded, well-supported, and serving your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obstruction — withdrawing from the governors’ union, or pulling back from cooperative federalism arrangements like healthcare or disability insurance — that’s fairly easy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Trying to build an alternate infrastructure of support — for our universities, for under-resourced populations — that’s the challenge, and it speaks to the asymmetry here. When states have been noncompliant in the past, they were just putting their foot on the brake. Now, blue states are trying to put their foot on the brake, jump out of the car, and run uphill on their own power.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s why this infrastructure has to be built largely anew. It’s not impossible, but it’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Where my mind goes is the pandemic-era pacts, right? Those had flowered early in the pandemic. But did they actually get things done?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think they did start to fall apart along the politics of various states and cities. But we are seeing new alliances, confederations — whatever you want to call them. The western states, along with Hawaii, have joined into a vaccine alliance. New England has done the same.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I also want to point to a deeper issue: high-population states, California in particular. California has 67 times the population of Wyoming, but the same number of senators. Donald Trump would not be invading blue cities and blue states if there were no Electoral College. He would not risk alienating voters in those states, regardless of political persuasion, because there are just too many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re seeing some anti-democratic structures, built into the Constitution to appease slave states, become more and more anti-democratic. The unbalanced nature of that has only gotten worse over time. That’s a deeper problem coming to the fore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People may remember over the years, there have been attempts to turn California into more than one state. There was the “Six Californias” ballot initiative in 2013, and variations of that afterward, but none of them made it forward. What you’re suggesting is not this, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Clara Jeffrey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m suggesting that people are starting to look at ways to both counter Trump policies and aggressions they see as unlawful and unfair, while also confronting the broader sense that the Senate and the Electoral College — particularly in combination — are deeply undemocratic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, David writes: “This is political pornography for me. I love the idea of California seceding. I’d like to hear a practical step-by-step of how this could happen rather than just pie in the sky.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David, we’re not going to talk about literal secession, but about building alternative infrastructures of governance. Jon, this is your work. What does that look like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Michaels:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We could talk about practical policies. One component is collective will: focusing attention on reshaping our states, or clusters of states, so they remain resilient during economic deprivation — like when the federal government cuts funding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another is preserving and maintaining our resources so they’re not used for punitive purposes — like deploying National Guard men and women against our own residents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If there’s real commitment here, we could start to build that alternative infrastructure. And to be clear, we’re not talking about going to the gun shop. This is what states can do constructively.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking with Jon Michaels, professor of law at UCLA School of Law and adviser to the dean on civic engagement. We’ve also got Clara Jeffrey, editor in chief of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the Center for Investigative Reporting. Her new piece in \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mother Jones\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> is “It’s Time for a Soft Secession.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll be back with more on the nuts and bolts of “soft secession” when we return.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/8kQ0oR7r0Dw\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, September 17 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Forum is now on YouTube. Subscribe to the KQED News YouTube channel and watch the full interview.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Journalist Jeff Chang contends that Bruce Lee, the famed actor and martial arts specialist, is the “most famous person in the world about whom so little is known.” In his new biography of Lee, “Water Mirror Echo,” Chang charts Lee’s rise as an action star and his impact on the creation of Asian American culture. We’ll talk to Chang about his book and about Bruce Lee’s special history in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/8kQ0oR7r0Dw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"545\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"114\" data-end=\"134\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"146\" data-end=\"153\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Jeff Chang’s new book, \u003cem data-start=\"199\" data-end=\"221\">Water, Mirror, Echo,\u003c/em> is a once-in-a-lifetime endeavor. Working from Bruce Lee’s diaries, letters, and other archival materials, as well as newly translated documents from Hong Kong and much other research, Chang builds a careful portrait of a man and his times — in contrast to the more mythological treatments his fans are prone to give him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"547\" data-end=\"918\">The book is meaty, and it’s as rich for Bruce Lee stalwarts as it is for people like, admittedly, myself, who have a more passing knowledge of the martial artist and actor. Jeff Chang, of course, is also the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"793\" data-end=\"855\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation.\u003c/em> And Jeff Chang joins us in the studio this morning. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"983\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"920\" data-end=\"935\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s great to see you. It’s great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1125\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"985\" data-end=\"1005\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah, great to have you. Let’s talk a little bit about the title of the book — \u003cem data-start=\"1085\" data-end=\"1107\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> Why that title?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1541\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1127\" data-end=\"1142\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Of course, Bruce’s most famous line is, “Be like water, my friend.” In the process of going through his papers and notes, there’s a book called \u003cem data-start=\"1287\" data-end=\"1313\">The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.\u003c/em> In it were the original lines he had copied from a Chinese philosophy book when he was young, probably eighteen, nineteen, or twenty. The full lines are: “Moving, be like water. Still, be like a mirror. Respond like an echo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1543\" data-end=\"1800\">That just knocked me out. You know when you read something and then have to put the book down and walk around for twenty minutes? It was like that. And as I went through his notes, I could verify that he came back to these three lines throughout his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1802\" data-end=\"2296\">It became a way to structure the story — to think about his life and how to tell it. But also, because Bruce died so prematurely, he was able to inculcate this idea of being like water, being adaptable, being elusive in a fight. He never got to really experience what it would mean to be still like a mirror or to respond like an echo. That happens after his life. He becomes a mirror for millions of people around the world, across multiple generations. And his words continue to echo today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2491\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2298\" data-end=\"2318\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful. Let’s talk about Bruce Lee. We can claim him as a native San Franciscan. He’s born in San Francisco in 1940. Why were his parents in San Francisco then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2741\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2493\" data-end=\"2508\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> His parents had come to raise money for the Chinese nationalists to defend China against Japanese imperialism and the war raging across China in the 1930s. They were also thinking about what it would mean if Hong Kong got invaded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2743\" data-end=\"3032\">Bruce’s dad was a very famous comedian in Cantonese opera. During times of war, people aren’t going to entertainment, so they were offered a chance to come to San Francisco and then tour the U.S. While they were here, his mom got pregnant. Bruce was born in the Chinese Hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3160\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3034\" data-end=\"3054\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Wow. That’s a huge deal. Opera in Chinatown at that time was a massive part of Chinese life in America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3522\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3162\" data-end=\"3177\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, and the other important part is that because he’s born in the U.S., he is a U.S. citizen — birthright citizenship. Under today’s debased language around immigration, he’d be called an “anchor baby.” Later in his life, he joked to the press, “Maybe my dad had me in the U.S. by design, or maybe it was just an accident. We’ll never know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3524\" data-end=\"3919\">I don’t think his parents intended to have another kid. The Chinese Exclusion Act was still in place. Bruce wouldn’t have been able to go anywhere outside of Chinatown. Even when his parents came in, they had to go through Angel Island and endure humiliations. So it’s very unlikely they were trying to move to the U.S. But that American citizenship becomes really important later in his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"4063\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3921\" data-end=\"3941\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> But he’s not raised here, right? They’re just on tour. He ends up back in Hong Kong and enters into a brutal situation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4372\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4065\" data-end=\"4080\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes, he’s a war child. The Japanese invade Hong Kong on December 8, around the same time as Pearl Harbor. Suddenly Hong Kong is thrown into war and starvation. His father had to work for bags of rice. Bruce nearly starved to death. Many of his young peers and babies around him were dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4374\" data-end=\"4476\">It’s hard to imagine, when you see Bruce so yoked and invulnerable, that he almost starved to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4687\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4478\" data-end=\"4498\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And the postwar period in Hong Kong is also wild. It doesn’t just return to peace and tranquility. There are waves of migrants, and as you describe in the book, a lot of street fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4808\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4689\" data-end=\"4704\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Yes. When I looked into it, I thought, “Wow, this sounds a lot like the Bronx in the 1960s and ’70s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4859\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4810\" data-end=\"4830\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> From your work on hip hop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"5170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4861\" data-end=\"4876\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly. The Chinese Civil War ends in 1949, the communists come into power, and refugees pour into Hong Kong — overwhelmingly young people. There’s no housing, the British colonial administration doesn’t care, so they set up shanties and tin huts on hillsides. Fires break out all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5226\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5172\" data-end=\"5192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Really is the Bronx is burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5534\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5228\" data-end=\"5243\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It is. And in the middle of all this, kids study different kung fu styles, form cliques, and an elaborate fight culture develops. Bruce loved that. He had kind of a bloodlust and studied Wing Chun. He’d get into fights with students of other schools — Choy Li Fut, Eagle Claw, and others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5536\" data-end=\"5716\">Fast forward to the 1960s when kung fu movies explode out of Hong Kong: these are the kids who grew up in this culture, now putting on costumes and doing it in front of a camera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5798\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5718\" data-end=\"5738\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Pretending it’s a long time ago, as opposed to yesterday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5903\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5800\" data-end=\"5815\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> Exactly — “Is your style better than my style? We’ll find out.” That was the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"6209\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5905\" data-end=\"5925\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> That was such a revelation to me — that there was a material basis for kung fu movies. Just wild. We’re talking with writer Jeff Chang about his new book, \u003cem data-start=\"6081\" data-end=\"6103\">Water, Mirror, Echo.\u003c/em> It’s about Bruce Lee — film star, martial arts expert, and icon — and how he helped make Asian America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6211\" data-end=\"6370\">Jeff Chang is the author of many other books, including \u003cem data-start=\"6267\" data-end=\"6329\">Can’t Stop, Won’t Stop: A History of the Hip Hop Generation,\u003c/em> \u003cem data-start=\"6330\" data-end=\"6342\">Who We Be,\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"6347\" data-end=\"6368\">We Gon’ Be Alright.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6372\" data-end=\"6649\">We want to hear from you. How has Bruce Lee influenced or impacted your life? Maybe you knew Bruce Lee in Oakland or ran into him in San Francisco. Do you have a Bruce Lee story to share? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6632\" data-end=\"6646\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6651\" data-end=\"6766\">Real quick, Jeff — did you feel an enormous responsibility writing this book? Taking on Bruce Lee feels so tough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"7027\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6768\" data-end=\"6783\">Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> I did. A friend of mine who made the movie \u003cem data-start=\"6827\" data-end=\"6837\">Be Water\u003c/em> reminded me: for the public, Bruce Lee’s life and the Lee family’s lives are a spectacle. But for the family, these are flesh-and-blood people — a father who’s gone, a brother who’s gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7029\" data-end=\"7091\">So I did feel a deep responsibility to represent that truth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7178\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7093\" data-end=\"7113\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ll be back with more from Jeff Chang right after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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